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Essex502
09-16-2004, 06:31 AM
U.S. intelligence pessimistic on Iraq future
Estimate contrasts Bush statements, says civil war possible
The Associated Press
Updated: 6:38 a.m. ET Sept. 16, 2004
WASHINGTON - A highly classified National Intelligence Estimate assembled by some of the governmentÂ’s most senior analysts this summer provided a pessimistic assessment about the future security and stability of Iraq.
The National Intelligence Council looked at the political, economic and security situation in the war-torn country and determined — at best — the situation would be tenuous in terms of stability, a U.S. official said late Wednesday, speaking on the condition of anonymity.
At worst, the official said, were “trend lines that would point to a civil war.” The official said it “would be fair” to call the document “pessimistic.”
The intelligence estimate, which was prepared for President Bush, considered the window of time between July and the end of 2005. But the official noted that the document, which spans roughly 50 pages, draws on intelligence community assessments from January 2003, before the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq and the subsequent deteriorating security situation there.
The latest assessment was undertaken by the National Intelligence Council, a group of senior intelligence officials who provide long-term strategic thinking for the entire U.S. intelligence community but report to the director of central intelligence, now acting CIA Director John McLaughlin. He and the leaders of the other intelligence agencies approved it.
Estimate contrasts Bush statements
The estimate contrasts with public comments of Bush and his senior aides who speak more optimistically about the prospects for a peaceful and free Iraq. “We’re making progress on the ground,” Bush said at his Texas ranch late last month.
A CIA spokesman declined to comment Wednesday night, and a National Security Council spokesman could not be reached for comment.
The document was first reported by the New York Times on its Web site Wednesday night.
It is the first formal assessment of Iraq since the October 2002 National Intelligence Estimate on the threat posed by fallen Iraqi President Saddam Hussein.
A review of that estimate released this summer by the Senate Intelligence Committee found widespread intelligence failures that led to faulty assumptions that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.
Senators say risks of failure great
Senate Republicans and Democrats on Wednesday denounced the Bush administrationÂ’s slow progress in rebuilding Iraq, saying the risks of failure are great if it doesnÂ’t act with greater urgency.
“It’s beyond pitiful, it’s beyond embarrassing, it’s now in the zone of dangerous,” said Sen. Chuck Hagel, R-Neb., referring to figures showing only about 6 percent of the reconstruction money approved by Congress last year has been spent.
Foreign Relations Committee members vented their frustrations at a hearing where the State Department explained its request to divert $3.46 billion in reconstruction funds to security and economic development. The money was part of the $18.4 billion approved by Congress last year mostly for public works projects.
The request comes as heavy fighting continues between U.S.-led forces and a variety of Iraqi insurgents, endangering prospects for elections slated for January.
“We know that the provision of adequate security up front is requisite to rapid progress on all other fronts,” said Deputy Assistant Secretary of State Ron Schlicher.
White House spokesman Scott McClellan said circumstances in Iraq have changed since last year. “It’s important that you have some flexibility.”
But Hagel said the shift in funds “does not add up in my opinion to a pretty picture, to a picture that shows that we’re winning. But it does add up to this: an acknowledgment that we are in deep trouble.”
'Lack of planning apparent'
Hagel, Committee Chairman Richard Lugar, R-Ind., and other committee members have long argued — even before the war — that administration plans for rebuilding Iraq were inadequate and based on overly optimistic assumptions that Americans would be greeted as liberators.
But the criticism from the panelÂ’s top Republicans had an extra sting coming less than seven weeks before the presidential election in which President BushÂ’s handling of the war is a top issue.
“Our committee heard blindly optimistic people from the administration prior to the war and people outside the administration — what I call the ’dancing in the street crowd,’ that we just simply will be greeted with open arms,” Lugar said. “The nonsense of all of that is apparent. The lack of planning is apparent.”
He said the need to shift the reconstruction funds was clear in July, but the administration was slow to make the request.
“This is an extraordinary, ineffective administrative procedure. It is exasperating from anybody looking at this from any vantage point,” he said.
State Department stresses progress
State Department officials stressed areas of progress in Iraq since the United States turned over political control of Iraq to an interim government on June 28. They cited advances in generating electricity, producing oil and creating jobs.
Schlicher said the department hopes to create more than 800,000 short- and long-term jobs over two years, saying, “When Iraqis have hope for the future and real opportunity, they will reject those who advocate violence.”
Congress approved the $18.4 billion in November as part of an $87 billion package mostly for military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. At the time, administration officials said the reconstruction money was just as important as the military funds. But only $1.14 billion had been spent as of Sept. 8.
“It’s incompetence, from my perspective, looking at this,” said the panel’s top Democrat, Sen. Joseph Biden Jr. of Delaware.
In separate action Wednesday, the Senate Appropriations Committee agreed to shift $150 million from the $18.4 billion to buttress U.S. efforts to help victims of violence and famine in the Darfur region of Sudan and nearby areas. The transfer was approved by voice vote with bipartisan support.
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We can't bury our heads in the sand and think we are doing well in Iraq after this report.

Jeanyus
09-16-2004, 06:59 AM
What war? From what I can tell that war ended less than 2 months after it started. We are now in the occupation of the country that we sucessufuly invaded. As far as military the Invasion of Iraq was one of the most sucessful in the history of the world!
In 1944 we invaded Frace, the Germans had less tanks and less infantry, than Sadam had, but in France America lost 10,000 in the first day.
We invade Iraq, they had 4,000 tanks and 400,000 infantry soldiers.
People need to do the math, take a look at history, and get off this unsucessful war BS thing that they have going.
As far as a civil war in Iraq, lets see, Islamic people that have taken a vow to kill me, are going to start fighting and kill each other, that sounds like GREAT NEWS !
These people are killers, they are taught to kill as infants, which do you like better, them killing each other, or them killing your family.
Read just a little of this,http://prophetofdoom.net/ and if you still have a problem with our military in Iraq,then I say you would make a good slave, the only problem is they are not taking any prisoners.

OGShocker
09-16-2004, 07:08 AM
Hard to "win" when you are fighting this...Qur’an 9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”
...But, we shall.

Essex502
09-16-2004, 07:24 AM
As far as a civil war in Iraq, lets see, Islamic people that have taken a vow to kill me, are going to start fighting and kill each other, that sounds like GREAT NEWS !
Where you're wrong is the Islamic people have NOT taken a vow to kill you at all. Only the Islamic radicals and their perverted views of the Koran have vowed to kill you. The Islamic principles preach peace with all religions. The oft misquoted Koran on killing infidels refers to those seeking to destroy Islam - not the other religions or their believers. The radical Islamics preach killing non-Islamic people only to secure and keep power in their hands like any other POS dictator.

Essex502
09-16-2004, 07:27 AM
Hard to "win" when you are fighting this...Qur’an 9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”
...But, we shall.
This is the real context:
Q12. DoesnÂ’t Islam promote violence, bloodshed and brutality since the QurÂ’an says that Muslims should kill the kafirs "Non-Muslim" where ever they find them?
Answer,
A few selected verses from the QurÂ’an are often misquoted to perpetuate the myth that Islam promotes violence, and exhorts its followers to kill those outside the pale of Islam.
1. Verse from Surah Taubah
The following verse from Surah Taubah is very often quoted by critics of Islam, to show that Islam promotes violence, bloodshed and brutality:
"Kill the mushriqeen (pagans, kafirs) where ever you find them."
[Al-QurÂ’an 9:5]
2. Context of verse is during battlefield
Critics of Islam actually quote this verse out of context. In order to understand the context, we need to read from verse 1 of this surah. It says that there was a peace treaty between the Muslims and the Mushriqs (pagans) of Makkah. This treaty was violated by the Mushriqs of Makkah. A period of four months was given to the Mushriqs of Makkah to make amends. Otherwise war would be declared against them. Verse 5 of Surah Taubah says:
"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is oft-forgiving, Most merciful."
[Al-QurÂ’an 9:5]
This verse is quoted during a battle.
3. Example of war between America and Vietnam
We know that America was once at war with Vietnam. Suppose the President of America or the General of the American Army told the American soldiers during the war: "Wherever you find the Vietnamese, kill them". Today if I say that the American President said, "Wherever you find Vietnamese, kill them" without giving the context, I will make him sound like a butcher. But if I quote him in context, that he said it during a war, it will sound very logical, as he was trying to boost the morale of the American soldiers during the war.
4. Verse 9:5 quoted to boost morale of Muslims during battle
Similarly in Surah Taubah chapter 9 verse 5 the QurÂ’an says, "Kill the Mushriqs where ever you find them", during a battle to boost the morale of the Muslim soldiers. What the QurÂ’an is telling Muslim soldiers is, donÂ’t be afraid during battle; wherever you find the enemies kill them.
5. Surah Taubah chapter 9 verse 6 gives the answer
Surah Taubah chapter 9 verse 6 gives the answer to the allegation that Islam promotes violence, brutality and bloodshed. It says:
"If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum,grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure that is because they are men without knowledge."
[Al-QurÂ’an 9:6]
The QurÂ’an not only says that a Mushriq seeking asylum during the battle should be granted refuge, but also that he should be escorted to a secure place. In the present international scenario, even a kind, peace-loving army General, during a battle, may let the enemy soldiers go free, if they want peace. But which army General will ever tell his soldiers, that if the enemy soldiers want peace during a battle, donÂ’t just let them go free, but also escort them to a place of security?
This is exactly what Allah (swt) says in the Glorious QurÂ’an to promote peace in the world.

Jeanyus
09-16-2004, 07:45 AM
Where you're wrong is the Islamic people have NOT taken a vow to kill you at all. Only the Islamic radicals and their perverted views of the Koran have vowed to kill you. The Islamic principles preach peace with all religions. The oft misquoted Koran on killing infidels refers to those seeking to destroy Islam - not the other religions or their believers. The radical Islamics preach killing non-Islamic people only to secure and keep power in their hands like any other POS dictator.
OK now I see where I was wrong. Thanks for pointing that out to me.
So the Muslims that would be fighting the civil war are the peaceful ones, who dont want to kill me.
And only the radical muslims want to harm me. When the US was attacked on
9-11, and they showed the streets of any Muslim country, on the news, I saw the streets packed with cheering people burning US flags. Are these the peacful ones or the radical, ones.
Next time you talk to a person that goes to a christian church, ask them what part of the Bible they don't believe.
Youll get the same answer, if you ask a Muslim, What part of the Qur'an do you not beleive.
I guess the 1 peaceful Muslim praying in a mosk was not news worthy.
Keep telling youself that Muslims are peaceful. You won't be able to convince me.

Essex502
09-16-2004, 08:08 AM
OK now I see where I was wrong. Thanks for pointing that out to me.
So the Muslims that would be fighting the civil war are the peaceful ones, who dont want to kill me.
And only the radical muslims want to harm me. When the US was attacked on
9-11, and they showed the streets of any Muslim country, on the news, I saw the streets packed with cheering people burning US flags. Are these the peacful ones or the radical, ones.
Next time you talk to a person that goes to a christian church, ask them what part of the Bible they don't believe.
Youll get the same answer, if you ask a Muslim, What part of the Qur'an do you not beleive.
I guess the 1 peaceful Muslim praying in a mosk was not news worthy.
Keep telling youself that Muslims are peaceful. You won't be able to convince me.
Jeanie, Jeanie...
First - "mosk" is spelled "mosque"
Second...when the Arab media shows muslims burning American flags there the same "shills" paid by Sadaam when he needed cheering crowds. The media as you so blindly expound show you what they want to show you.
Third - You are absolutely correct...1 millions of peaceful, devote Muslims worldwide are NOT newsworthy to the Arab news services like the POS Al-Jazeera.
Fourth - I work in a multi-cultural, very, very large company and am surrounded by peaceful Islam believers. I'm not one (agnostic, myself).

Jeanyus
09-16-2004, 09:14 AM
Essex
Thanks for the spelling lesson. I'm not very good at spelling werds, but I'm not stoopid.
I am trying to have an open mind about the Islamic thing, but it is hard.
I have read a little of the Qur'an, but I don't get very far, cause I just get mad.
When I read this:Qur’an 9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”
It does not sound like this: "Be nice to infidels, forgive them, and hug them"
It must be my lack of education,or something.
I'm not sure what agnostic is. Don't be offended by my next statement. Just so you know, you could describe me with one word, Redneck.
Is an agnostic like a bisexual, you can't seem to make up your mind?
Don't get mad I'm just trying to learn.

Essex502
09-16-2004, 10:08 AM
Essex
Thanks for the spelling lesson. I'm not very good at spelling werds, but I'm not stoopid.
I am trying to have an open mind about the Islamic thing, but it is hard.
I have read a little of the Qur'an, but I don't get very far, cause I just get mad.
When I read this:Qur’an 9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”
It does not sound like this: "Be nice to infidels, forgive them, and hug them"
It must be my lack of education,or something.
I'm not sure what agnostic is. Don't be offended by my next statement. Just so you know, you could describe me with one word, Redneck.
Is an agnostic like a bisexual, you can't seem to make up your mind?
Don't get mad I'm just trying to learn.
There are a number of good sites that give the interpretation of the Koran or !Quran or Qu'ran. I was, like you, pissed at the Islamic faith and the followers of the faith until I had some open conversations with the guys here in the company who are Muslim. Devout at that - where kneel down and pray each day. After the discussions, I did a lot of Internet searches on certain passages that are often misquoted.
Hey...I've got a big red neck stripe that I sometimes keep covered! :D
Agnostic, in my words...I believe there is a higher entity but I don't believe in organized religion. I talk to my own god...I don't need someone to interpret my words or his responses. :D

OGShocker
09-16-2004, 10:16 AM
There are a number of good sites that give the interpretation of the Koran or !Quran or Qu'ran. I was, like you, pissed at the Islamic faith and the followers of the faith until I had some open conversations with the guys here in the company who are Muslim. Devout at that - where kneel down and pray each day. After the discussions, I did a lot of Internet searches on certain passages that are often misquoted.
When did they turn you in to a blood thirsty terrorist? Or is that part of the conversion yet to happen? j/k ;)

Essex502
09-16-2004, 10:32 AM
When did they turn you in to a blood thirsty terrorist? Or is that part of the conversion yet to happen? j/k ;)
Not me...I jsut discussed their religous beliefs and how they apply to other faiths and "non-believers". The passages oft-misquoted are usually taken out of context.
I'd personally carve the guts out of any C.S., MoFo, cowardly terrorist with a box cutter should I get my hands on one. "Freedom fighters" usually fall into the terrorist category as well. Most of these a$$holes are only about there own interests and not about their religous beliefs. They bastardize the religious dogma they spew to suit there own ends.

Jeanyus
09-16-2004, 11:29 AM
Agnostic, in my words...I believe there is a higher entity but I don't believe in organized religion. I talk to my own god...I don't need someone to interpret my words or his respons
Oh, I thought agnostic ment something else, sorry about that bisexal comment. I'm OK with the agnostic thing. I'm OK with organized religion also, except in the case where, extremists have hijacked a religion, to recruit devoted suicide bombers and so on. I hope what you say about them being peacful is true, if it is, how could what we are doing in Iraq, not be a sucess?
Any way at least I know how to spell mosque.

Dave C
09-16-2004, 11:49 AM
except al quaeda and their followers, who avocate killling all infidels or non-believers not necessarily in defense of anything.
this is well documented.
Where you're wrong is the Islamic people have NOT taken a vow to kill you at all. Only the Islamic radicals and their perverted views of the Koran have vowed to kill you. The Islamic principles preach peace with all religions. The oft misquoted Koran on killing infidels refers to those seeking to destroy Islam - not the other religions or their believers. The radical Islamics preach killing non-Islamic people only to secure and keep power in their hands like any other POS dictator.

Essex502
09-16-2004, 01:11 PM
except al quaeda and their followers, who avocate killling all infidels or non-believers not necessarily in defense of anything.
this is well documented.
No question there! Al Queda has perverted/hijacked and skewed the written rules of the Islamic faith to suit their purpose of creating a universal Islamic state headed by Osama Bin Laden. That's Al Queda's only purpose - world domination.
BTW...the Taliban also perverted the teachings of Mohammed to suit their needs while in power.

Dave C
09-16-2004, 02:07 PM
there seems to a number of the ignorant muslim public that supports this type of hate for no particular reason. Its not their fault because there is not too much dissent.
They are in desperate need of a religious reformation and a free press.

schiada96
09-16-2004, 02:22 PM
can anyone say crusade

Essex502
09-17-2004, 11:11 AM
Ya' gotta' love this response I got on a "rep point" over this thread:
"That's the dumbest thing I think I have ever read. Do you have any of your" own ideas or just cut and paste them all jackass?"
The really funny part is the a$$hole didn't sign it AND gave me a greenie!
Not that I need to explain...but...the author of the above doesn't realize that the posting was to start an open conversation on the subject based upon media reports. Now...I could put it into my own words but I think it is better to give the credit to the author. I would love to challenge the mental retard that wrote the rep point comment to a public debate any time, any where. What a BOZO.

Dave C
09-17-2004, 12:37 PM
Can I give you a negative rep to offset the green one you got? that way your even. :rollside: :rollside: ;)

Essex502
09-17-2004, 12:47 PM
Can I give you a negative rep to offset the green one you got? that way your even. :rollside: :rollside: ;)
Don't really care one way or the other...I don't come on the board for a popularity contest. I realize in many ways that what I say may not be liked nor understood by many. I have never cared muct for what people think of me...love me...hate me...or anything in between...couldn't care less. Those who know me - know me, those that don't - won't.
I just thought it was hilarious how someone could fock that up.

eliminatedsprinter
09-21-2004, 07:48 AM
Don't really care one way or the other...I don't come on the board for a popularity contest. I realize in many ways that what I say may not be liked nor understood by many. I have never cared muct for what people think of me...love me...hate me...or anything in between...couldn't care less. Those who know me - know me, those that don't - won't.
I just thought it was hilarious how someone could fock that up.
This whole rep point thing sucks. Why do they even have them?
I partially agree with you about the teachings of Islam. But one thing that can't be ignored is that in every nation Islam has taken a strong hold in, there has soon been chaos and distruction. Entire nations have adopted Islamic Law and it seems, to me, to be very barbaric and just flat out evil to force people to live under it esp in this age.

pops1
09-21-2004, 10:08 AM
Where you're wrong is the Islamic people have NOT taken a vow to kill you at all. Only the Islamic radicals and their perverted views of the Koran have vowed to kill you. The Islamic principles preach peace with all religions. The oft misquoted Koran on killing infidels refers to those seeking to destroy Islam - not the other religions or their believers. The radical Islamics preach killing non-Islamic people only to secure and keep power in their hands like any other POS dictator.
I am finding it harder to support the Islamic People- Few of Power-or in general, openly state the repression of the teachings or false teachings of those who push the view to kill all others "Who Are Non belivers".
I take the opinion America has and will do what is right. We did take out Sadaaam, we will give them a chance to establish a goverment of some kind
and we will leave. We will also support and defend them if the goverment is a democratic type or form of goverment for the people.
We will keep our word Unless Kerry gets in- He will CUT & RUN, or throw in the medals and tell the UN to deal with it. Thats why the UN is bad mouthing BUSH now. It wants it the way it was. Making BIG $ stealing the Oil Money.
FREAK also pointed out (On this board) a bigger reason for this war then all others. The EURO push for currency change. US to EURO. and mister swavee la pure AKA John KERRY-J.F.Kerry- John F. Kerry- has always wanted to be the player of the EURO connection. "Thats why he threw his buddies medals away" so he could be a EURO Player of peace. I will bet you- His old Lady will leave him, if he is not elected. But what do I know, I Voted for Carter
who started all this.
As to those that think we are not the same people of world II - Don't Push
there is a limit to our loss of our life. We will or would use "Big Birtha"
"The Bitch" "The INFIDEL's REVENGE" and take all the Heat after the mushroom
cloud settles. PS Russia Will do it also. The Russians emptied & torched every city to suck the Germans into there pit to kill or be Killed. "ALL LIFE OR NO LIFE" for the Homeland! Thats do or die.
You must agree- Those are the dumbest, stupid, people standing in the streets after they blow up there own people with 1947 rocket launchers dancing in the streets. OPPP's Missed- Well lets have a party on dead Oead, Ala, Mohamid & Maktuum and the new one legged Ishmar. :idea:
I know im making fun. Yet where is there Voice, or secretly do they join them. I sure do not hear there scream for tolerance on this CULT.