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captain
08-17-2001, 10:06 PM
I"ve been lokin 4 a 12 x21 lefthand 1 inch tapered shaft prop 4 my v-drive,well it sucks 2 b me!!!!the prop warehouse was no help, mi-wheel hasn"t replied ,,,chad hill,len"s or anybody else must be off line.
So I bring my problem 2 the people! HAS ANYONE GOT A 12 X 21 LEFTHAND 3 BLADE 1 INCH TAPERED SHAFT PROPELLER or something close.
Just in case u were wondering what the application was ,it fits a 16 ft. sanger,14% o.d.casale,twisted via a heavily massaged,68 vette,327 blown ,and 300hp nitrous. anyway some help on the prop would b great even a used one close 2 that pitch would help....

superdave013
08-19-2001, 06:43 AM
Is that 16' sanger a flatbottom?? If so good luck finding a 21" pitch prop for it. That is way, way too much pitch. It will give your boat so much lift at the tail it will not even be funny. 17" pitch props are just about the limit as far as pitch goes and still having a good handling boat. I ran an 11 X 16 on my flatbottoms. You are only running a 14% gear so you should step that up big time. What prop are you running now? It might be fine with the correct gear.

058
08-19-2001, 08:32 AM
I agree with SuperDave. That prop sounds like it should be on a outboard. A SBC with 14% should run something like a 11x14 or 15. Change gears if the engine will pull it, not props.

captain
08-19-2001, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by superdave013:
Is that 16' sanger a flatbottom?? If so good luck finding a 21" pitch prop for it. That is way, way too much pitch. It will give your boat so much lift at the tail it will not even be funny. 17" pitch props are just about the limit as far as pitch goes and still having a good handling boat. I ran an 11 X 16 on my flatbottoms. You are only running a 14% gear so you should step that up big time. What prop are you running now? It might be fine with the correct gear.
sorry, it"s a 18 ft.ok if its a gear change,how far do I go to drop one thousand rpm?...

Sangerboy
08-20-2001, 06:09 PM
I would try 18's first. Even though it doesn't seem like a big jump it is actually almost a 30% increase in your overdrive ratio. I run 15's in my box and have seen the tach at 8000. I'm considering putting in 18's this winter. I run a 10&7/8 X 16 Kindsvater prop.

captain
08-20-2001, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by Sangerboy:
I would try 18's first. Even though it doesn't seem like a big jump it is actually almost a 30% increase in your overdrive ratio. I run 15's in my box and have seen the tach at 8000. I'm considering putting in 18's this winter. I run a 10&7/8 X 16 Kindsvater prop.
thanx 4 the info, I finally got through 2 mi-wheel talked with kevin in enginering and I think I"m going 2 try a 12x19 with a full cup,he thinks a 14x19 cut down and cupped will give me the strength and durability I"m looking for,.. said it would take 4-5 weeks 2 build,...was hopeing someone else had already been down this path,.. anyone got a parichute I can barrow?... thanx again 4 the info,...captain

superdave013
08-20-2001, 09:24 PM
No No No, I'm sorry to shoot that down but that is totaly the wrong prop! 19" is to much pitch and you do not want any cup! Mi Wheel is not in the drag boat prop buis. They make great props but not for a flatbottom! My brother loves the one on his MasterCraft but that's not the same game. Call Menkins, Stellings (spin off of Sanger), Chad Hill, Hill props or Kindsvater. Try Jim Wilkes too @ 714 540-8908. I bet he has a used one for you and he is a smoking great guy. You will need that chute jacket if you run that prop with your blown small block on nitrous.
It's too bad that you have a top loader Casale in your boat. You will have a harder time finding gears. But you must get rid of your nirbral prop and get a STEEL!! one. You can find some gears if you look real hard.
I'm with sanger boy, I like small diameter props, short gears and lots of RPM in my flats. 14% to 18 is a big jump but you are going up in hp big time too. If you can find some 18 - 22 gears get them. The 22% if your the nitrous junkie that I am. If not go with some 18's. Oh, I know your not thinking three baldes are you? You want a two blade for going fast. It will still pull a ski rope out of your hands too.

captain
08-21-2001, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by superdave013:
No No No, I'm sorry to shoot that down but that is totaly the wrong prop! 19" is to much pitch and you do not want any cup! Mi Wheel is not in the drag boat prop buis. They make great props but not for a flatbottom! My brother loves the one on his MasterCraft but that's not the same game. Call Menkins, Stellings (spin off of Sanger), Chad Hill, Hill props or Kindsvater. Try Jim Wilkes too @ 714 540-8908. I bet he has a used one for you and he is a smoking great guy. You will need that chute jacket if you run that prop with your blown small block on nitrous.
It's too bad that you have a top loader Casale in your boat. You will have a harder time finding gears. But you must get rid of your nirbral prop and get a STEEL!! one. You can find some gears if you look real hard.
I'm with sanger boy, I like small diameter props, short gears and lots of RPM in my flats. 14% to 18 is a big jump but you are going up in hp big time too. If you can find some 18 - 22 gears get them. The 22% if your the nitrous junkie that I am. If not go with some 18's. Oh, I know your not thinking three baldes are you? You want a two blade for going fast. It will still pull a ski rope out of your hands too.
ok,ok,ok,wow the more I learn,more the more ignorant I realize I am,think I"ll put it back in the barn..captain

superdave013
08-22-2001, 07:08 AM
captian, Hey, I'm not calling you ignorant. Sorry if you think I was being an a$$ as that was not my intent at all. But I just don't want to see you spend money on the wrong thing and/or set your boat up wrong and hurt yourself. Don't put it back in the barn! Flatbottoms are so fun to drive so stick it out. You just might have to spend a little more and put a little more work into it is all. It will be worth it. Look for a good used prop as new flatbottom props are very $$$$. Keep posting and let us konw how it works out for you.
Dave

ponponracing
08-22-2001, 08:32 AM
If you want to have fun with your flatbottom, your prop should be 11-11 1/2 diameter by 15-15 1/2 diameter minimum and maximum. I tried 16 pitch but it made the boat slightly unstable in rough water or during hard acceleration.
I went from Super-Stock class to Pro-Comp and now to Can-Am and it was always with the same props. Close to the same numbers with K-boats but with slightly different blade shape.
After you have a good prop., you correct rpm with gears.
By the way, I run 1100hp in my flat., 540 injected alky with Olds heads. Works decent.

Sangerboy
08-22-2001, 08:31 PM
Captain, don't put it away, stick with it. Superdave & Ponpon have given some excellent advice. The problem with running that much pitch and diameter, especially with a 3-blade, is hammering it out of the hole. You want some slip starting off because if you hook up to hard running good power you can a) bend, twist or break your propshaft (or all of the above) b) find yourself upside down before you even get going. It can be frustrating at times to try and find the right parts and combinations but boy, when it starts working there is nothing like hearing the engine screaming behind you and eating up the water in front of you. It took me almost three years to sort out and dial in my old bubbledeck, but I learned a whole bunch and now it's a real wow ride. ( nothing like ponpon's but it does dust my brothers Daytona Sprint)

captain
08-23-2001, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by superdave013:
captian, Hey, I'm not calling you ignorant. Sorry if you think I was being an a$$ as that was not my intent at all. But I just don't want to see you spend money on the wrong thing and/or set your boat up wrong and hurt yourself. Don't put it back in the barn! Flatbottoms are so fun to drive so stick it out. You just might have to spend a little more and put a little more work into it is all. It will be worth it. Look for a good used prop as new flatbottom props are very $$$$. Keep posting and let us konw how it works out for you.
Dave
OK,I took out the gearbox and dissassembled it it does have a 14% drive,but its underdrive,pressin it apart was a little scary but the deed is done. So if I can"tfind the gears I need,why not flip the box upside down ,giving me 28% in the opposite direction and change the prop 2 a rite hander. p.s. the gears don"t seem 2 have any #"s,but top gear has 40&bottom has 35 teeth....captain

058
08-24-2001, 08:48 AM
Captain, If the top gear is 40t and the bottom is 35t that is 14% overdrive, not underdriven. It is correct, leave it alone. Just get a correct steel 2 blade prop in the 11-11.5" diameter range and with about 15" of pitch and you should be good to go.

superdave013
08-24-2001, 08:56 AM
058, From what it sounds like he has stepped up the hp and now wants to lower his RMP. He is now runnig a blown small black on nitrous. If that is true he should be making some pretty good power. More that the ave. BBC anyway. I could see why he needs more gear. I agree that he should start with the prop. Then try a gear change if needed.

058
08-24-2001, 09:57 AM
SuperDave, I agree with ya about the power, no lack of it, but as lost as he seems to be I thought it be best to get him back to basics before he really trys to make that thing fly. With the direction he was going he would have hurt hinself.

Sangerboy
08-24-2001, 07:39 PM
baseline would be an excellent place to start. This has been an excellent discussion so far but scrolling through the posts made me realize that a little more information could help define which direction captain should go. So captain, what type of prop have you been running and how many rpm's were you pulling with it?

superdave013
08-24-2001, 08:21 PM
Your correct sangerboy, more info is needed. But I have it as he e-mailed me some of the goods. Captain, I hope you don't mind me sharing the e-mail you sent to me but these guys do know what up so here goes.
This is what I have,
"rite now I"m running a 12x15 3 blade, nibril which is giving me,a guess of about 55/60 mph @ 6k rpm & I thought changing the prop would be a lot easier and cheaper than puling out the gearbox buying the bearing/gear puller and purchasing a set of gears at a couple of hundred bucks a set but I"m new at this so I am open 2 suggestions, I"ve read that one pitch is worth 150 rpm,so a 12x21 should bring me close to 5k on the rpm, then I was going to set the nitrous at the 200hp level and gain, hopefully 800 -1000 rpm, to the end result of closing in on the 100mph. if this is not the route to take, what is the formula to figger out overdrive gearing and what'll will I need to do it........... thanx cap"
Oh, in another e-mail he told me it is a Top Loader type of casale model 162174...which is a 12 degree f-n-r 1962.
I bet gears for that won't be very easy to find and now you know why I was saying that prop (nibral) has to go.

058
08-24-2001, 10:50 PM
Hey guys, With the parimeters he set this is why I suggested he stick with the basics... 14% for now and a good steel 2 blade prop of the 11-11.5x15 vintage and let him wing the engine for now. If the engine is as stout as he says it is then it should be good for 7.5-8K rpm. Top loader gears are as rare as hen's teeth above 17% and he would have better luck switching to a split case if its gears he is after. If he went in the direction he was after he would be back on this forum looking for solutions to a ill handling and dangerous boat. See some of the other posts [porposing] for case in point.

captain
08-25-2001, 05:41 AM
Originally posted by Sangerboy:
baseline would be an excellent place to start. This has been an excellent discussion so far but scrolling through the posts made me realize that a little more information could help define which direction captain should go. So captain, what type of prop have you been running and how many rpm's were you pulling with it?
after rereading all the posts,seeing I have misspoke and misspelled myself, I figured the best is 2 start over at the beginning.I have a 18 ft. sanger hull,flatbottom,a sbc engine at 6-8 hundred hp,a casale f-n-r,r is removed, gearbox model 62174,the top gear is 35 teeth,the bottom has 40,the shaft is 1 inch,and the prop is a nibril 3 blade 12x15 lefthand.the thing weights in at 2207 topped off.the problem is 6000 rpm is about55-60 mph( I want 2 stay @65-7k rpm] .my goal is 100mph. if I can"t get the gears I need, can I make a new gearbox mount 2 flip the thing upside down??? that way I"m 14% overdriven &28% over my current setup....please forgive my ignorance & thanx again..captain

058
08-25-2001, 09:38 AM
The box really is 14% underdriven? Small gear on top-big gear on bottom? Try switching the gears, don't try to flip the box up-side-down. If you were to go to that much trouble it would be easier just to get a split case Casale and start from there and you would have an unlimited gear selection. Any gear higher than 37% the cases will have to be machined to accept the top gear but other than that its pretty much a no-brainer. Used 12 deg. split case boxes usually go for $4-600.00, 10 deg go for more. My recommendation for gears/prop would be 25-28% with a 11-11.25x15" prop, your goal of 100mph would be met with the engine spinning app. 7100-7300 rpm. Get rid of the 3 blade and get a steel 2 blade, the bronze prop won't survive that rpm.

captain
08-25-2001, 06:50 PM
[ December 08, 2002, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: captain ]

Sangerboy
08-25-2001, 08:52 PM
OK guys, that's some good info. Captain, your numbers check out for being 14% underdriven. At 15% slip you should be just over 60mph at 6000 rpm. I haven't ever been into an old toploader Casale, but if you can just switch the gears that's what I would try first in conjunction with a steel 2-blade prop. That Nibral prop won't handle that kind of power and rpm. If the motor alone will pull the 14% over gears it should put you into the 80's with a 15 pitch prop. Then I would add the N20 and add more gear if you want to go faster. If you want to go that fast you may just want to go with a 12 degree split-case unit because you'll want some sort of prop release( whirlaway etc.) for safety. I don't know if one can be fit to a toploader and I'm having difficulty figuring out how a prop release could work with a reverse gear. Keep asking questions and I'll keep an eye out for parts.

captain
08-26-2001, 05:55 AM
[ December 08, 2002, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: captain ]

captain
08-31-2001, 04:50 AM
[ December 08, 2002, 09:24 PM: Message edited by: captain ]

superdave013
08-31-2001, 09:18 PM
Here is a 12 deg. split case with 18% gears.
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1182700477

captain
09-12-2001, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by superdave013:
Here is a 12 deg. split case with 18% gears.
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1182700477
auction was closed by time I got there,meanwhile,while I was out looking 4 a 2 blade prop I came across an old gale banks twin turbo system,still in the box,4 a small block chevy!!! sure wish I had a prop, I don"t know what 2 do with the turbo"s guess I"ll stick"em on the shelf 4 now....captain

superdave013
09-12-2001, 09:00 AM
I have a gale banks turbo set-up on a big block chevy. It works pretty sweet for and older low end turbo system. If I can ask, Where did ya find it and what did you have to pay?

GasTurbine
09-12-2001, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by superdave013:
Is that 16' sanger a flatbottom?? If so good luck finding a 21" pitch prop for it. That is way, way too much pitch. It will give your boat so much lift at the tail it will not even be funny. 17" pitch props are just about the limit as far as pitch goes and still having a good handling boat. I ran an 11 X 16 on my flatbottoms. You are only running a 14% gear so you should step that up big time. What prop are you running now? It might be fine with the correct gear.
Hey Dave.
Dont mean to be OT, but you seem like you know a lot about screws and mentioned a masterCraft in one of your posts, so Id like to ask you a question.
Got a '88 19' Malibu Skier with a new 270hp Chevy 350 in it, spinning a 3 blade 13x13 screw (stock I think).
Now heres the deal...WOT is only 3900rpm@38mph...it should be around 4900.
I pretty sure its a screw issue, and I know this one has be reworked at least 2 times (maybe incorrectly).
We will be doing little sking behind this boat, so Im willing to give up some low-end grunt for a better than stock top speed...any advice on what size/type screw I should try?
Thanks much!

superdave013
09-12-2001, 01:31 PM
GasTurbine, I don't know that much about the tournament type of boats. But if your down 1,000 rpm from what you should be your prop has increased in pitch (not likely) or your down on power. I would look at the tune up on your engine. I would also send your prop to a good prop shop and have the pitch checked. The newer tournament boats are runnig a 4 blade s.s. prop with a variable pitch. My brother switched and likes it. I guess it gives you good pull with a little better top end. But for a big gain in speed. Well your boat was built to pull skiers and pull them well. It is a mid engine design and will never get up and ride like you need to go fast. I would not do to much to it myself as it's not really the right boat to hop up. But hey, I bet you could stick a GasTurbine in an old v-drive and be king of the lake for sure. Now that sounds like a neat project.

GasTurbine
09-12-2001, 01:59 PM
Hi Dave.
The engine is new, so Im pretty sure that is not the problem. And yes...I know these boats dont really plane up fully...they are ski boats...designed to resist side pull, and make low wakes, thus sit pretty flat in the water making loads of resistance. Im not looking to make a "hot boat" out of it...just trying to get a little more "omph"...we got it dirt cheap, so we had to buy it.
As for the gas turbine/v-drive...been there, done that...go to the website listed on my profile for some pics...
Its just about goin' fast...thats all. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/smile.gif
Thanks Dave.
[This message has been edited by GasTurbine (edited September 12, 2001).]

Hustler
09-12-2001, 02:36 PM
Man that boat looks a wild ride. Ever GPS it?
Hustler

GasTurbine
09-12-2001, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by Hustler:
Man that boat looks a wild ride. Ever GPS it?
Hustler
Yes...Garmin EMap...had it in my shirt pocket...146mph on an early (6:00am) Sunday ride on "glass" water.
In retro-spec, I would have chosen a different hull...things were pretty hairy at 120mph+...
Later...

superdave013
09-12-2001, 09:32 PM
Oh man o man, that thing is soooooo wicked. You just gotta bring that thing out to the v-drive regatta next season. Gives a whole new meaning to "HOT BOAT". I am shocked at the old top loader v-drive. I would think that would need a quick change or a C-500. The install looks super clean too. Nice job! I just gotta ask, what's the ranger think of that??

GasTurbine
09-13-2001, 04:03 AM
Originally posted by superdave013:
Oh man o man, that thing is soooooo wicked. You just gotta bring that thing out to the v-drive regatta next season. Gives a whole new meaning to "HOT BOAT". I am shocked at the old top loader v-drive. I would think that would need a quick change or a C-500. The install looks super clean too. Nice job! I just gotta ask, what's the ranger think of that??
Thanks Dave.
Most rangers just stare...thats all they can do in unlimited waters, however, here is the bad news...Ohio instilled noise limitations for boats last year, to be fully enforced this season. Were just going to out and see what happens...were told you get a warning first anyway.
We showed some pics to Hot Boat Mag reps at a local boat show, and they contacted us back about doing a "Readers Ride" piece, but we never got around to it as of yet.
Take care.

captain
09-24-2001, 07:26 PM
superdave,thank u 4 the fax on banks
[ December 08, 2002, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: captain ]