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HighRoller
09-16-2002, 10:44 PM
I'm a Republican,and I supported Bush until he betrayed me and every other American with his programs supporting illegals.Not only does he want to reward illegal immigrants with citizenship,he has cleared the way for Mexican truck drivers to drive in our country because NAFTA says so.I USED to think GW was the real thing,until I found out he was buying the Mexican vote by selling the American dream....NOW he and other supposedly conservative republicans want to provide illegal immigrants from the age of 12-18 a free college education.Once again we're being sold down the river by someone we were supposed to support,all so they can have the votes of the"No Habla"crowd and their relatives.

Froggystyle
09-16-2002, 11:33 PM
Nothing new here. He has had this platform all the way through his governorship in Texas...
I don't agree with it, but that is his deal.

THOR
09-17-2002, 06:12 AM
My parents and myself paid for my expensive education. No help here and I am proud to say that I am an AMERICAN.
Free education. At least they can say thank you to us since we will be the ones supporting their education. And for God's sake speaking f'n English when you get out of school as well. Damn that pissed me off.

flat broke
09-17-2002, 06:55 AM
This is one area where I hope Bush IS two faced. Lets face it, in Florida, California, and Texas to name a few, the Hispanic vote is painfully important. It would be carreer suicide to come out guns blazing with anti-imigration sentiment. I'd like to say Bush is just blowing smoke to get the vote and then he'll hang em out to dry, but his move to grant amnesty to however many million of them it was, pretty much quells that argument. It would be nice to find out in 7 years that the amnesty deal was just a carrot to get them to vote for him for the second term, where he'll take a 180 on his stance and help us tax paying, English Speaking citizens that can trace our ancestry back to the revolutionary war, neutralize the brown plague. Not very likely, but at least it isn't as frustrating as reality. :(
Imigration issues asside, Bush was definitely the right move for the nation's well being. However, if citizens and politicians don't come to grips with the fact that illegal imigration is the social cancer that will kill our nation, we might as well start learning to live with the idea that America as we know it will soon be gone. Almost nothing pisses me off more than being out in public and not being able to understand what half of the people around me are saying because they're not speaking English. However, there is definitely one thing that infuriates me to a much higher level... Organized activities by the Latino community to infiltrate and overrun the state legislatures of the Western U.S. This is not some crack pot conspiracy theory! There are groups of Latinos that believe they can use our legal system to gain access to positions of public service, then use influence there to reclaim the Southwest for La Raza. To those bastards I would remind them the following. The only civilian crime outlined in the constitution with a penalty of death is TREASON. Subverting the American culture to surplant it with something else is most definitely treason and should be dealt with accordingly.
Chris

watergirl
09-17-2002, 07:34 AM
Okay now I have sat here and read all these threads on politics, and I'm really starting to get upset.
I as an American with Mexican descent find it very aggrivating that you guys seem to think that only Mexicans are immigrants. There are other nationalities that migrate here for the same reason MEXICANS do. There are Africans, Asians, Europeans, Middle Eastern, etc. But you guys refer to the immigrants as MEXICANS who can't speak english. What do you expect coming from a country that only speaks spanish.
I admit there are alot of free loaders who take advantage, but not all of them do. Some do want to come over here for a better life for themselves and there family.
I like to read these threads, and from what I read you guys seem like real cool and fun people, but you have to understand that reading shit like that upsets me. Thanks for reading this. Hope I didn't offend.
Just my .02! :rolleyes:

BBTAHITI
09-17-2002, 08:13 AM
Good point! Nobody EVER mentions those damn illegal immigrants from CANADA!

THOR
09-17-2002, 08:17 AM
I never said Mexicans. I never implied that either. But, as a caucasian male, how many scholarships, pell grants, hope grants, etc etc etc. do you think I received. ZERO!!! I was turned down consistently for different programs where friends of mine with non-caucasian backgrounds were accepted. But, the kicker is, I had a 3.90 GPA and they had a 3.0. Is that fair.
Tell me something. Would you want a doctor that got B's and C's through school to work on you, or one that got all A's.
As for immigrants coming over and making a better life. Feel free, just fit in, fight for this country now, where the colors proudly, and speak English damnit.

spectratoad
09-17-2002, 08:20 AM
Watergirl, I do agree with you in the fact that there are other immigrants and that all are guilty of having some freeloaders. There are also many American freeloaders. I do feel though that when you come to this country that you speak the language of the country, English. My wife is hispanic and goes out of her way to help people in a store or something that only speak spanish but she will also politely tell them that they need to learn english and to also get their kids to feel comfortable with english. They are only holding themselves back.
I have been around the world to about 20 different countries thanks to Uncle Sam's Canoe Club and nowhere did anyone accomodate me and my lack of the native language. You know why? Most of the people spoke english and most signs were in english. English is the language of the world, :cool: learn it or get left behind. Any immigrant should learn english to be in the states, the rest of the world has. It is the curriculum in many European countries schools. Utter laziness is the reason for not knowing the language of the world. This post is by no means pointed at you it is just my opinion. wink
I think ***boat needs the swimsuit pictures back up, there seems to be some pent-up testosterone that is being released by way of political threads lately. :D

watergirl
09-17-2002, 08:27 AM
That's exactly why I said that I do agree that some come over here and take advantage of the situation,but not all do.
There are alot of MEXICANS that come here and scrub the toilets you handle your business in and pick the fruit you eat and clean the offices you work in for a measly 2 dollars an hour just to make some money to pay the rent for a 1 bedroom apartment with a family of 8 living in it.
I see alot of MEXICANS BUSTING THERE ASS TO MAKE A BETTER LIFE FOR THERE FAMILY.

THOR
09-17-2002, 08:28 AM
Mexicans aren't the only ones that do that!!

Unchained
09-17-2002, 08:37 AM
I'd much rather have Mexicans around here than Diaper heads.

watergirl
09-17-2002, 08:40 AM
I never said only Mexicans did that. I said alot of them do.

watergirl
09-17-2002, 08:44 AM
It's pretty sad that I lost one of my stars for sharing my opinion. frown

Froggystyle
09-17-2002, 08:50 AM
I am seriously dissapointed at the lack of tolerance exhibited on this thread.
Talk about your stereotypical head in the sand separatist...
Get a clue guys. You are in America. Legal or not, they are here, and doing our shit jobs. Equal opportunity is hopefully going away, and the best man/woman will get the jobs.
Have some empathy. My stomach turned when I heard the phrase "The brown plague" uttered. I can't believe you said that...
You may be pissed that people don't speak English, and if you are tell the business owner that you are. If you don't want to order your El Pollo Loco from a non English speaker, don't go there anymore, and tell the manager why. He can weigh your reasons for not giving him business vs. his decision to hire cheap labor. If all of our public service jobs are filled by non-English speakers, the evolutionary answer would be to learn Spanish so that we can converse in our own towns. I will adapt and learn it sooner than I will shake my fist at the moon demanding everyone learn English.

Froggystyle
09-17-2002, 08:51 AM
watergirl:
It's pretty sad that I lost one of my stars for sharing my opinion. :(Well I gave you five for sharing it.
That's why I turned mine off. I was sick of it going from four to five based on what we were talking about this week.

watergirl
09-17-2002, 08:57 AM
Thanks Froggy. Right back at you!

THOR
09-17-2002, 09:04 AM
Just so you dont point fingers, I was not responsible in any way for your stars. I am not fighting with, just merely stating my opinions as are you. In fact, I praise you for defending your heritage.
Froggy,
Everyone must adapt sooner or later to get by in this world. Why not learn the customs and the language of the place you are living? Does that not seem rational?

Lakeshow
09-17-2002, 09:05 AM
My .02:I have always found the anti immigrant BS ineresting as it amazes me how many people are direct descendents of Christopher Colombus and the folks on his boats or perhaps the people on the Mayflower. Note: Those people were also immigrants.
Bottom line - lighten up, do your part and the rest will take care of itself.

Froggystyle
09-17-2002, 09:10 AM
It does, of course, but they don't need it. They don't have a problem getting everything they need around here. They think that Spanish is the universal language, as we have it on our milk cartons, DMV tests, voting ballots, Telephones, etc...
The bottom line is, in their small, sheltered world of working their asses off all day and going home to 200 kids at night, they don't run into a whole lot of need to learn English (or opportunity for that matter) and could give a shit. I, on the other hand see a reason to learn Spanish every day, sometimes twice. I plan on being a business owner soon, and hiring people who may or may not speak English for some of the jobs. I need to learn Spanish, and I am. It will give me more control over my personnel, and more respect as well.
I'm over it... I just want you guys to know that there is someone on the other side of this argument on the forums, lest we start pulling up surveying stakes and head for the county seat demanding Mexican heads on a platter.

THOR
09-17-2002, 09:14 AM
If you need any lessons, I speak spanish.
BTW, did you learn any prop re-working techniques yet? I have one you can start with.

78Eliminator
09-17-2002, 09:18 AM
Froggystyle:
I will adapt and learn it sooner than I will shake my fist at the moon demanding everyone learn English.VERY WELL PUT! You people are soooooooo lazy! Spanish is just about the easiest language to learn and it's fun too. The people complaining just feel left out and frustrated. Learn the language....Spanish If you are living in SD, you are basically living on land which was robbed from Mexico in the first place. They were here long before we (since 1776) were... Also in California, people with Hispanic decent ARE THE POPULUS. Caucasians are only second to Hispanics. Certainly, you wouldn’t want everyone to start speaking German, right?
Justin

Froggystyle
09-17-2002, 09:19 AM
I decided that to run down that road is an invitation to ruin whatever reputation I may have gleaned for knowledge for good!
Havasu Hangin has a guy who is about 50% cheaper than retail, and knows his shit. That is the route I would take.
I could just see me eating prop after prop after screwing them up miserably...
Thanks for the vote of confidence though :D

flat broke
09-17-2002, 09:20 AM
watergirl:
That's exactly why I said that I do agree that some come over here and take advantage of the situation,but not all do.
There are alot of MEXICANS that come here and scrub the toilets you handle your business in and pick the fruit you eat and clean the offices you work in for a measly 2 dollars an hour just to make some money to pay the rent for a 1 bedroom apartment with a family of 8 living in it.
I see alot of MEXICANS BUSTING THERE ASS TO MAKE A BETTER LIFE FOR THERE FAMILY.First of all, I think the thread was aimed at ILLEGAL IMIGRANTS. The difference between illegal imigrants and legal imigrants is night and day. Be they Mexican, Canadian (don't get me started as their Visa policy takes a lot of jobs from American citizens), Eastern European, Asian, or Middle Eastern. If you are an American citizen, it shows that you have taken the time to learn the language to a reasonable level of proficiency, understand the founding beliefs of our country as well as the basic structure of our governmental hierarchy, and have taken the time to assimilate yourself into the American culture.
Illegal imigrants are something of a different sort. They trespass on our soil under the pretense of better economic opportunity for themselves and/or their unborn children, then at the expense of Taxpayers (white, hispanic, asian, black, purple, green, etc taxpayers) those children receive low/no cost health care, special (and expensive to taxpayers) accomodations in our school systems.
There is most definitely a difference between imigration and illegal imigration. I have worked with/ and am friends with multiple families that have imigrated to America LEGALLY. I'll give you two examples, one Hispanic, the other Caucasian.
The first is the Vargas family. As the name may suggest, they are of hispanic origins. Their father imigrated to the United States Legally decades ago. He has always taken responsibility for himself and his family and provided for them accordingly. While his children (my age) are bilingual, they speak English in public settings as it is the national language. This family worked hard and has become relatively prosperous as a whole. They participate in elections, are contributing members of society, speak better english than some white folk, and hold the nation's well being as something important. Yes they still celbrate their customs from Mexico, but the are in every sense of the word Americans.
The second family is the Bistram family. They are Polish imigrants who LEGALLY imigrated to the U.S. in the 80s. Prior to their imigration, both parents spoke English and saved money to make their transition into the American economic system a little easier. When they arrived in the U.S. they first lived in South Central LA because it was all they could afford close to where the father could find work. Since their imigration, they've faced their ups and downs, but have never been deadbeats and have always managed to make due without being a draw on society. The father has managed to go from South Central, to the hills of Corona, provide a very comfortable existence for his wife and two daughters and pay a great deal into our system in the form of taxes on his 6 figure salary.
Those families are legal imigrants, and they have contributed to our society as a whole, have assimilated into our culture while still enjoying the customs of their homelands. I welcome families like the Bistrams and Vargases, they are the type of imigrants that have made America what it is today. But don't for one second confuse them with those that ILLEGALLY imigrate to the U.S. for an easier go at life than what they have in their homeland. References to a Brown Plauge specifically target the massive and uncontrollable influx of ILLEGAL imigrants from South America. The reference does not apply to Hispanic citizens with the exception of instances where those citizens seek to subvert the American way of life with that of their homeland. I have many associates that are of hispanic descent, but they are all LEGAL imigrants and contributing members of society. Guess what? they consider themselves Americans.
My last point of correction to your post is as follows. IF YOU ARE AN AMERICAN CITIZEN, YOU ARE AN AMERICAN! IF YOU WISH TO BE CONSIDERED A MEXICAN, MOVE BACK TO MEXICO. AMERICA AND MEXICO ARE TWO VERY DIFFERENT PLACES AND I FOR ONE DO NOT WANT TO SEE MY AMERICA TURN INTO MEXICO
Chris

Froggystyle
09-17-2002, 09:23 AM
Awwwwwww. Just when we had all calmed down...

watergirl
09-17-2002, 09:28 AM
flat broke:
watergirl:
That's exactly why I said that I do agree that some come over here and take advantage of the situation,but not all do.
There are alot of MEXICANS that come here and scrub the toilets you handle your business in and pick the fruit you eat and clean the offices you work in for a measly 2 dollars an hour just to make some money to pay the rent for a 1 bedroom apartment with a family of 8 living in it.
I see alot of MEXICANS BUSTING THERE ASS TO MAKE A BETTER LIFE FOR THERE FAMILY.First of all, I think the thread was aimed at ILLEGAL IMIGRANTS. The difference between illegal imigrants and legal imigrants is night and day. Be they Mexican, Canadian (don't get me started as their Visa policy takes a lot of jobs from American citizens), Eastern European, Asian, or Middle Eastern. If you are an American citizen, it shows that you have taken the time to learn the language to a reasonable level of proficiency, understand the founding beliefs of our country as well as the basic structure of our governmental hierarchy, and have taken the time to assimilate yourself into the American culture.
Illegal imigrants are something of a different sort. They trespass on our soil under the pretense of better economic opportunity for themselves and/or their unborn children, then at the expense of Taxpayers (white, hispanic, asian, black, purple, green, etc taxpayers) those children receive low/no cost health care, special (and expensive to taxpayers) accomodations in our school systems.
There is most definitely a difference between imigration and illegal imigration. I have worked with/ and am friends with multiple families that have imigrated to America LEGALLY. I'll give you two examples, one Hispanic, the other Caucasian.
The first is the Vargas family. As the name may suggest, they are of hispanic origins. Their father imigrated to the United States Legally decades ago. He has always taken responsibility for himself and his family and provided for them accordingly. While his children (my age) are bilingual, they speak English in public settings as it is the national language. This family worked hard and has become relatively prosperous as a whole. They participate in elections, are contributing members of society, speak better english than some white folk, and hold the nation's well being as something important. Yes they still celbrate their customs from Mexico, but the are in every sense of the word Americans.
The second family is the Bistram family. They are Polish imigrants who LEGALLY imigrated to the U.S. in the 80s. Prior to their imigration, both parents spoke English and saved money to make their transition into the American economic system a little easier. When they arrived in the U.S. they first lived in South Central LA because it was all they could afford close to where the father could find work. Since their imigration, they've faced their ups and downs, but have never been deadbeats and have always managed to make due without being a draw on society. The father has managed to go from South Central, to the hills of Corona, provide a very comfortable existence for his wife and two daughters and pay a great deal into our system in the form of taxes on his 6 figure salary.
Those families are legal imigrants, and they have contributed to our society as a whole, have assimilated into our culture while still enjoying the customs of their homelands. I welcome families like the Bistrams and Vargases, they are the type of imigrants that have made America what it is today. But don't for one second confuse them with those that ILLEGALLY imigrate to the U.S. for an easier go at life than what they have in their homeland. References to a Brown Plauge specifically target the massive and uncontrollable influx of ILLEGAL imigrants from South America. The reference does not apply to Hispanic citizens with the exception of instances where those citizens seek to subvert the American way of life with that of their homeland. I have many associates that are of hispanic descent, but they are all LEGAL imigrants and contributing members of society. Guess what? they consider themselves Americans.
My last point of correction to your post is as follows. IF YOU ARE AN AMERICAN CITIZEN, YOU ARE AN AMERICAN! IF YOU WISH TO BE CONSIDERED A MEXICAN, MOVE BACK TO MEXICO. AMERICA AND MEXICO ARE TWO VERY DIFFERENT PLACES AND I FOR ONE DO NOT WANT TO SEE MY AMERICA TURN INTO MEXICO
ChrisFirst of all if you read the prior post you wll see the comments being made such as the "NO HABLA" and the "BROWN PLAGUE."
Second I agree with you partially on if you live in America you should consider yourself American, but don't forget where you came from.
wink

flat broke
09-17-2002, 09:39 AM
78Eliminator:
[Learn the language....Spanish If you are living in SD, you are basically living on land which was robbed from Mexico in the first place. They were here long before we (since 1776) were... Also in California, people with Hispanic decent ARE THE POPULUS. Caucasians are only second to Hispanics. Certainly, you wouldn’t want everyone to start speaking German, right?
JustinTime for a brief world politics/history class Justin. To say that California and the Southwest was Robbed from mexico.... A little inacurate and belittling to the 13,780 Americans who lost their lives in the war. As far as reparations, $15 million was given to the Mexican Government for California, Nevada, New Mexico, Arizona, and Utah. From a natural resource standpoint, we were more than generous. Stewart paid 3 million to the Russians without the cost of American lives for Alaska. The total cost of the war with Mexico was over 100 Million dollars. Once again to say they were robbed is a pile of crap.
Unfortunately Possesion, conflict, war, resolution, modified possession is the way MANKIND has acquired land since his beginings in Mesopotamia. To insinuate that it is an intrinsically American tactic would be serverly erroneous.
Chris

flat broke
09-17-2002, 09:54 AM
watergirl:
[First of all if you read the prior post you wll see the comments being made such as the "NO HABLA" and the "BROWN PLAGUE."
Second I agree with you partially on if you live in America you should consider yourself American, but don't forget where you came from.
wink Watergirl,
I agree that the term Brown Plague is inappropriate. I should have clarified that much earlier when I saw it pop up on another thread.
As far as considering yourself American but not forgetting where you come from; that's a little more difficult. If by that you mean maintaining touch with your culture and heritage, I agree. If it means bringing the problems where you come from with you when you arrive somewhere else, I disagree.
I'm not going to stroke Froggy's ego, but he made a statement that is probably far more true than he will ever know. He mentioned something about evolution and learning Spanish. Sadly for me as I really like my country and speaking English, most of the indicators confirm that if you are going to evolve/continue your existance in the Southwest US, you will have to learn Spanish. Birthrate is a far to formidable evolutionary factor to try and overcome. When we look at society as a microcosm of the entire life cycle, it is clear that indeed you either evolve or you become extinct. In nature the only way organisms have ever beat evolution is via migration. When a species couldn't evolve, or I should say a beneficial adaptation was not derived and propagated, the species move to a more suitable host environment. Sooner or later people will have to make their choice. At least with this type of evolution you have a choice. Of course the one thing humans have always been able to do which separates us from all other species, is adapt our environment to our needs. This has changed landscapes, created millions of inventions, and even started wars.
Chris

watergirl
09-17-2002, 09:57 AM
You pretty much clarified what I meant by not forgetting where you came from. wink

THOR
09-17-2002, 09:59 AM
Can we just get a group hug here?

watergirl
09-17-2002, 10:00 AM
Hugs and Kisses to all! XOXOXOXOXOXO :D

Froggystyle
09-17-2002, 10:12 AM
Damn..... Good post Flatbroke!

watergirl
09-17-2002, 10:21 AM
I want my stars back! frown

trader
09-17-2002, 10:29 AM
i don't think we need to worry about all the mexicans in the united states it's all the ****ING RAG HEADS.... these are the people we need to get out NOW!!! before they take more innocent lives........... we can lower the unemployment rate when all the convience store and doughnut shop jobs open up after we round them all up......

Jordy
09-17-2002, 10:50 AM
watergirl:
I want my stars back! :(Seeing as how this post has settled down and I have no intention of firing it up again by getting into the Arizona side of this argument, I will merely say I gave you 5 stars to help your ratings out.
Jordy :D

watergirl
09-17-2002, 10:53 AM
Thanks Jordy. Right back at ya! :D

THOR
09-17-2002, 10:54 AM
Can we talk about religion now? j/k :p

Instigator28
09-17-2002, 11:24 AM
If you want to live here, I can't fault you for it because it is a great country. However, if you want to live here, get a Social Security Card or get the f**k out. I will gladly pay may taxes to be provided all the services that come with living in this great country. Nothing pisses me off more than to realize that my house may be on fire and the fire department may be delayed because they were already on seen of an accident for someone who had never paid a dime in taxes. Or that I may be in the emergency room at a hospital waiting 4 hours behind those same people. Or finaly, my kids education is hindered because the classroom my child is in has a teacher spread thin by trying to teach in spanish and english to a child whos mother illegally came to the US to give birth and have yet to pay a dime that has gone to the Unified School district.
If you want to live here, I welcome you, but it aint a free ride. I am tired of paying for public services that are used by people who I feel don't deserve them.
I am sure I am about to lose my stars.

watergirl
09-17-2002, 11:33 AM
You won't lose your stars from me because that is stupid to lose your stars for stating your opinion. I may not agree with some but I do respect your opinion, but that's all it is to me is an opinion.
But let me go back to this spanish,hispanic,mexican deal.
There it goes again, "teach in spanish and english to a child whos mother illegally came to the US to give birth and have yet to pay a dime that has gone to the Unified School district."
Not all immigrants who children go to school here speak spanish. For god's sake there are so many different races in this world and so many languages to go along with them, which means not all immigrants speak spanish! :mad:

schiada96
09-17-2002, 11:53 AM
ebonics anyone

Instigator28
09-17-2002, 12:27 PM
watergirl:
You won't lose your stars from me because that is stupid to lose your stars for stating your opinion. I may not agree with some but I do respect your opinion, but that's all it is to me is an opinion.
But let me go back to this spanish,hispanic,mexican deal.
There it goes again, "teach in spanish and english to a child whos mother illegally came to the US to give birth and have yet to pay a dime that has gone to the Unified School district."
Not all immigrants who children go to school here speak spanish. For god's sake there are so many different races in this world and so many languages to go along with them, which means not all immigrants speak spanish! :mad: Watergirl, that was not meant to offend or to stereotype, I was using an actual example in my case. Although this can happen with any language, I was using a personal example.

Kurtis500
09-17-2002, 12:44 PM
Regardless of any other circumstances English needs to be taught proficiently to the children who dont know it. Thier parents are also responsible for this too even if they dont speak it themselves. There is NO WAY to succeed in any common way in this country if you cant speak english. The school systems and parents, legal or illegal are guilty of ensuring the poverty level of society never ends if they dont give thier kids the tools needed to survive life in the US here when they get older.
Now why would you make sure that kids cant get a decent job when they get older?
English is a LANGUAGE!---NOT A RACE!

G-Ride
09-17-2002, 01:00 PM
Chris is right. It's not just about language, it's also about culture. We should all read "The Death of the West. How dying populations and immigrant invasions imperil our country and civilization" by Patrick Buchanan. Simply stated western civilization by the year 2050 will be overun by third world cultures because of collapsing birth rates in developed countries and population explosions in the undeveloped world. This isn't politics, it's facts. Numbers have no party or racial affiliations.
Quick poll: How many people on this board 33 and younger have children? How many have one child?
Take those same numbers and compare them to Central Asia, Sub-Saharan Africa, or even dare I say Cental America. You'll find vastly different numbers I promise you.
This isn't a swipe at any one race or ethnicity. So before I get flamed you should know that I myself am married to hispanic and have many friends and family of different heritages.
I just hope that before they all come, they open up Diamond Valley Lake, because Havasu's going to be way too crowded! :D

flat broke
09-17-2002, 01:25 PM
watergirl:
You won't lose your stars from me because that is stupid to lose your stars for stating your opinion. I may not agree with some but I do respect your opinion, but that's all it is to me is an opinion.
But let me go back to this spanish,hispanic,mexican deal.
There it goes again, "teach in spanish and english to a child whos mother illegally came to the US to give birth and have yet to pay a dime that has gone to the Unified School district."
Not all immigrants who children go to school here speak spanish. For god's sake there are so many different races in this world and so many languages to go along with them, which means not all immigrants speak spanish! :mad: Not to start another fire, but there is a good reason that Instigator mentioned the Spanish vs English debate in our school system here in California. Speaking generally accross the state, children of imigrants from places other than South America, don't seem to have as tough a time with English proficientcy. This is surely skewed by the fact that there are on average, more South American imigrants in So Cal, so thats what the stats show. But I also feel there may be more parental support for learning English in non Hispanic imigrant families. This is probably tied to the social norms in the homelands of other imigrants where English is taught starting with primary education.
In direct response to Instigator's personal experience, I can feel for you as I have to watch someone come home from work on a daily basis frustrated that the kids she teaches are so low in their English proficiency. Her main complaint... not that its harder for her, or a pain in the ass, but that with all of the extra time she spends working on their English, it detracts from the rest of the curriculum and ultimately there is only so much time to cover everything. Sadly, not all of the children are deficient in their English skills, and those children that are proficient are robbed of valuable time during their educational process while the teacher helps to bring the rest of class up to speed. Before anyone makes any assumptions, I'll tell you that every one of the children in the class is Hispanic, so I'm not saying the white kids are getting screwed. I will say that some of the children are from illegal parents, and as stereotypic as it may be, they are the ones that are holding the other children back.
So to anyone that wants to make this a white/brown issue... it's not. It's about sending your children to school knowing that the teacher will have ample time to cover all of the state required curriculum; not focus his/her energies on getting the English deficient children up to an acceptable level so the school will look decent come test time. Children have a right to the best education the public school system can give them. Having them sit at a desk doing busy work while the teacher makes up for a parent's shortcommings in preparing their child for their educational carreer is not the best education the system can provide. Instigator's gripe transcends race or political issues, I would guess that he is motivated by something far more primal; a parent's desire for their child to have the very best that can be obtained.
Chris

Instigator28
09-17-2002, 01:45 PM
flat broke:
watergirl:
You won't lose your stars from me because that is stupid to lose your stars for stating your opinion. I may not agree with some but I do respect your opinion, but that's all it is to me is an opinion.
But let me go back to this spanish,hispanic,mexican deal.
There it goes again, "teach in spanish and english to a child whos mother illegally came to the US to give birth and have yet to pay a dime that has gone to the Unified School district."
Not all immigrants who children go to school here speak spanish. For god's sake there are so many different races in this world and so many languages to go along with them, which means not all immigrants speak spanish! :mad: Not to start another fire, but there is a good reason that Instigator mentioned the Spanish vs English debate in our school system here in California. Speaking generally accross the state, children of imigrants from places other than South America, don't seem to have as tough a time with English proficientcy. This is surely skewed by the fact that there are on average, more South American imigrants in So Cal, so thats what the stats show. But I also feel there may be more parental support for learning English in non Hispanic imigrant families. This is probably tied to the social norms in the homelands of other imigrants where English is taught starting with primary education.
In direct response to Instigator's personal experience, I can feel for you as I have to watch someone come home from work on a daily basis frustrated that the kids she teaches are so low in their English proficiency. Her main complaint... not that its harder for her, or a pain in the ass, but that with all of the extra time she spends working on their English, it detracts from the rest of the curriculum and ultimately there is only so much time to cover everything. Sadly, not all of the children are deficient in their English skills, and those children that are proficient are robbed of valuable time during their educational process while the teacher helps to bring the rest of class up to speed. Before anyone makes any assumptions, I'll tell you that every one of the children in the class is Hispanic, so I'm not saying the white kids are getting screwed. I will say that some of the children are from illegal parents, and as stereotypic as it may be, they are the ones that are holding the other children back.
So to anyone that wants to make this a white/brown issue... it's not. It's about sending your children to school knowing that the teacher will have ample time to cover all of the state required curriculum; not focus his/her energies on getting the English deficient children up to an acceptable level so the school will look decent come test time. Children have a right to the best education the public school system can give them. Having them sit at a desk doing busy work while the teacher makes up for a parent's shortcommings in preparing their child for their educational carreer is not the best education the system can provide. Instigator's gripe transcends race or political issues, I would guess that he is motivated by something far more primal; a parent's desire for their child to have the very best that can be obtained.
ChrisWell said. Actually, said better than I did. The final thing you didn't touch on. Everyone, I mean everyone, at one point or another has complained about the Federal, State and Local taxes taken out of their checks. Imagine how much less it could be if everyone paid thier fair share. I always laugh my ass off and then get pissed at how people complain that their rights are being voilated if they are denied a public service even though they illegal. How would you feel if everytime you went out to dinner with your family, the waiter handed you your bill and the bill for the table next to you and it wasn't optional. God forbid you should refuse, because that family will complain that they are intitled to that free meal. Yes, I am refering to Prop 117 and all the circus that followed. Nothing in life is free or at least I didn't think so, but there are a hell of a lot of people getting some pretty good public services at yours and my expense. As I stated earlier, if you are already here, then you made it so you can stay, but only as a tax paying citizen.
[ September 17, 2002, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: Instigator28 ]

watergirl
09-17-2002, 01:57 PM
I agree with all of you. But notice how much better it sounds now that you are not reffering to all immigrants in America as MEXICANS or SPANISH SPEAKING. I'm sure I'm not the only hispanic on these boards or who reads these boards, but I was the only hispanic that I know who responded to this thread in defense to what I think were racial comments about Mexicans or spanish speaking people.
Honestly, it makes me feel more welcome on these boards. Thanks for changing the way you phrase things. :D

Instigator28
09-17-2002, 01:59 PM
Hey Watergirl, what ever happened to you and Chestah Cheetah?

watergirl
09-17-2002, 02:04 PM
Instigator28:
Hey Watergirl, what ever happened to you and Chestah Cheetah?Oohh! You remembered that one. That ones top secret though. wink

flat broke
09-17-2002, 02:06 PM
Perhaps he had to spend all day clarifying every statement he made and make sure everything out of his mouth was PC, didn't contain the words Mexican, or Spanish Speaking. In the end it got to be too much for him and he ran off with the Monkey to catch up with the Hawaiian Tropic girls in Tahiti or something. :D wink :D
That was purely smart ass conjecture on my behalf and I'm in no means claiming that I know anyting about what happened.
Chris :)

G-Ride
09-17-2002, 02:07 PM
In case you missed it, there's not going to be a government who cares who is legal and illegal, only who can pay and who can't. As long as there are more people that are wanting to come here than who want to stay in their own country,and there are people in this country willing to subvert federal law and look the other way than this is the way it's going to be. There's no use bitching about prop 117 or 187 or any of that shit. You see people in the first world's are choosing not to complicate their lifes with children, while the people of the third world continue to need more children to eek out a living. What happens when one goes down while the other goes up? The politicians have studied this, they know that we will need in the coming years more and more immigration, not less, in order to stave off the shrinking population of this country. And less and less of them will have learned English before they get here. Sad but true...

G-Ride
09-17-2002, 02:11 PM
Sorry this thing turned north and I was still heading south. :D
Now let's hear more about watergirl and CC! wink

Havasu Cig
09-17-2002, 03:37 PM
watergirl:
That's exactly why I said that I do agree that some come over here and take advantage of the situation,but not all do.
There are alot of MEXICANS that come here and scrub the toilets you handle your business in and pick the fruit you eat and clean the offices you work in for a measly 2 dollars an hour just to make some money to pay the rent for a 1 bedroom apartment with a family of 8 living in it.
I see alot of MEXICANS BUSTING THERE ASS TO MAKE A BETTER LIFE FOR THERE FAMILY.I don't know where you are finding someone to work for $2.00 an hour. The guys who do day labor want $10.00 an hour and lunch. That is under the table as well without taxes taken out.
I have nothing against Hispanics and have many friends that are from Hispanic descent (sp), but there are some things that piss me off. After september 11 alot of people in my town in North san Diego county were flying American flags. If you drove through the Barrio all you saw was Mexican flags flying. Why don't they show some loyalty and support to the country they are living in. My.02.

Charley
09-17-2002, 03:46 PM
Froggystyle:
I am seriously dissapointed at the lack of tolerance exhibited on this thread.
Talk about your stereotypical head in the sand separatist...
Get a clue guys. You are in America. Legal or not, they are here, and doing our shit jobs. Equal opportunity is hopefully going away, and the best man/woman will get the jobs.
Have some empathy. My stomach turned when I heard the phrase "The brown plague" uttered. I can't believe you said that...
You may be pissed that people don't speak English, and if you are tell the business owner that you are. If you don't want to order your El Pollo Loco from a non English speaker, don't go there anymore, and tell the manager why. He can weigh your reasons for not giving him business vs. his decision to hire cheap labor. If all of our public service jobs are filled by non-English speakers, the evolutionary answer would be to learn Spanish so that we can converse in our own towns. I will adapt and learn it sooner than I will shake my fist at the moon demanding everyone learn English.Nicely said... a Seal with a big brain hmmm

Charley
09-17-2002, 03:48 PM
I agree with Froggy on all accounts except the speaking English part...

lambertjr
09-17-2002, 04:04 PM
Lakeshow:
My .02:I have always found the anti immigrant BS ineresting as it amazes me how many people are direct descendents of Christopher Colombus and the folks on his boats or perhaps the people on the Mayflower. Note: Those people were also immigrants.
Bottom line - lighten up, do your part and the rest will take care of itself.Interesting statement. Being a descendant of the original Americans and knowing the travesties and horrors perpatrared against my people I almost laugh at the bickering about the "immigrants".................................
Almost.
We are all Americans. Treat each other as such.

haulina29
09-17-2002, 04:56 PM
How come mexicans who live in america want to be called hispanics yet the people who live in mexico laugh at the term hispanic,fact . Also why is it that people have issue with the Mexican problem in so cal there is a difference between imigrants an illegals get your facts straight . English is the american language and its not our job to teach illegal spanish speaking kids english period

spectratoad
09-17-2002, 05:31 PM
Watergirl, Just want you to also know that I didn't touch your stars either. I think everyone has some very enlightening opinions. I think the fact is that when peole are talking about the immigration problems it is the illegals they are speaking of. I also think that it is a pretty well known fact that if you integrate into a society the more apt you are to move ahead so that you don't have to scrub toilets or pick fruit. I think the lazy a$$ caucasions don't do that job because welfare became more accessible, I hope this changes though. FROGGY, Don't you guys blend into the local environment to get further up the food chain? A twisted comparison but at its basic level it is the same. eek!
Everyones rights are very important to me, it is in my blood. Get a copy of the Bill of Rights. The first signature is my last name. :D
Be proud of your heritage and hold on to it but don't try to turn where you immigrated to into your homeland. There was a reason you left. wink

TrojanDan
09-17-2002, 06:22 PM
watergirl:
I'm sure I'm not the only hispanic on these boards or who reads these boards, but I was the only hispanic that I know who responded to this thread in defense to what I think were racial comments about Mexicans or spanish speaking people.
Well Watergirl, if it wasn't for my damn work computer freezing up during my page long response to THOR's first two posts, you would of had another Latino's view. "F" it now that it seems things are quieting down. I don't want to stir the pot anymore.
I kind of wonder if there's a political forum out there that discusses "hot boats" like this forum discusses politics?
Dan Mendoza

mike37
09-17-2002, 07:04 PM
My last point of correction to your post is as follows. IF YOU ARE AN AMERICAN CITIZEN, YOU ARE AN AMERICAN! IF YOU WISH TO BE CONSIDERED A MEXICAN, MOVE BACK TO MEXICO. AMERICA AND MEXICO ARE TWO VERY DIFFERENT PLACES AND I FOR ONE DO NOT WANT TO SEE MY AMERICA TURN INTO MEXICO
well said flat broke
Havasu Cig
under the table as well without taxes taken out.
your supporting illegal imagrant
watergirl good you stand up for legal imagrants
and put doun genaral predgudus
did i spell that right?

spectratoad
09-17-2002, 08:03 PM
that's funny Dan. That should be on the "things that make you say HHMMMMM" thread. :D

Rexone
09-18-2002, 01:51 AM
Watergirl, I just gave ya 5. No one should lose their stars for stating their opinion. If we start dinking each other for free speech, just how American is that?

Rexone
09-18-2002, 02:42 AM
[ September 18, 2002, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: Rexone ]

twistedpair
09-18-2002, 05:57 AM
BBTAHITI:
Good point! Nobody EVER mentions those damn illegal immigrants from CANADA!Yeah!! Goddamn FROSTBACKS!! Send Em' back where they came from!! Oh wait, I'm one of those, nevermind.

THOR
09-18-2002, 05:58 AM
I flung you a rating TrojanDan for expressing your opinion whether you are mad at me or not.

twistedpair
09-18-2002, 06:11 AM
THOR:
I flung you a rating TrojanDan for expressing your opinion whether you are mad at me or not.Ditto, same for you watergirl.

nmdcb
09-18-2002, 06:32 AM
the political discussion here seems to be a little heated. it seems through all the different opinions that there is one prevailing agreement. i am the first to admit being prejudice. i am white, and like white people, not white trash. i know a few black people, and the ones i know are decent people, but i do not like niggers. i have many hispanic friends(being i live in new mexico), very good people, but i do not like spics. i am sure some of this language offends some, but that is not my intention. the fact is that every race has trash in it, and that seems to be the major issue with people. if you come to this country by the grace of god, government visa, or some other special circumstance, you better love her, and look at her like you were born her,just like the rest of us do! if your not, stay the **** out, because i will let you know about it in a hurry!
well i am done with my soapbox.

watergirl
09-18-2002, 07:29 AM
Havasu Cig:
watergirl:
That's exactly why I said that I do agree that some come over here and take advantage of the situation,but not all do.
There are alot of MEXICANS that come here and scrub the toilets you handle your business in and pick the fruit you eat and clean the offices you work in for a measly 2 dollars an hour just to make some money to pay the rent for a 1 bedroom apartment with a family of 8 living in it.
I see alot of MEXICANS BUSTING THERE ASS TO MAKE A BETTER LIFE FOR THERE FAMILY.I don't know where you are finding someone to work for $2.00 an hour. The guys who do day labor want $10.00 an hour and lunch. That is under the table as well without taxes taken out.
I have nothing against Hispanics and have many friends that are from Hispanic descent (sp), but there are some things that piss me off. After september 11 alot of people in my town in North san Diego county were flying American flags. If you drove through the Barrio all you saw was Mexican flags flying. Why don't they show some loyalty and support to the country they are living in. My.02.Well first off you don't come from the same neighborhood I do. People in my neighborhhod would work for any amount of money to support their family.Let me tell you $2 an hour to them is like making $20 an hour were they came from, so unless they just came here to take advantage then they are happy that they are at least making that.
Thanks to everyone interested in my opinion and for my stars.
Peace and love to all! :D

HM
09-18-2002, 07:37 AM
Watergirl, I gave you 5 stars!

Unchained
09-18-2002, 09:04 AM
trader:
i don't think we need to worry about all the mexicans in the united states it's all the ****ING RAG HEADS.... these are the people we need to get out NOW!!! before they take more innocent lives......Yeah, it blows my mind to think of a country/nationality that tells 1/2 of it's citizens that they have to wear a bag on their head. In some arab countries women can't vote and have less rights than a camel.
When prince "what's his face" A saudi, flew to this country a couple months ago he specifed that no women air traffic controllers were to direct his plane. What an asshole !! Maybe they should have had a camel for an air traffic controller for him. The camel would get more respect in the arab country.

TCHB
09-18-2002, 10:15 AM
We Americans are all talk about this issue. We say we do not want illegal people here but we all hire them for low paying service jobs that are own kids would never do. When is the last time you stopped spending money in local restaurants,hotels,hospitals, new homes construction, remodels, boat production,auto repair and the list goes on and on.You know the work is being done by illegal people, and you support this because you like the cheap labor and it saves you $$$money. The people would not be here if we did not hire them and support the buisness of our communities. Talk is Cheap!!!

watergirl
09-18-2002, 10:20 AM
TCHB:
We Americans are all talk about this issue. We say we do not want illegal people here but we all hire them for low paying service jobs that are own kids would never do. When is the last time you stopped spending money in local restaurants,hotels,hospitals, new homes construction, remodels, boat production,auto repair and the list goes on and on.You know the work is being done by illegal people, and you support this because you like the cheap labor and it saves you $$$money. The people would not be here if we did not hire them and support the buisness of our communities. Talk is Cheap!!!Very true!

haulina29
09-18-2002, 01:08 PM
Most reputable places will not or do not hire illegals the days of 2 dollars per hour are long gone the illegals are organized or work underground becuase they now have rights and we protect them . Go to your local home depot parking lot and approach the illegal casual labor and ask what he he gets .The reply will be 18 per hour four hour minimum . Also the hard work ethic is slowly declining and there pay rate is steadly increasing. To say that we all migrated here is bs . i have 3 different types of blood and could care less about them i am american . not american anything else just my 0.2

mike37
09-18-2002, 04:42 PM
Quote TCHB We Americans are all talk about this issue. We say we do not want illegal people here but we all hire them for low paying service jobs that are own kids would never do. When is the last time you stopped spending money in local restaurants,hotels,hospitals, new homes construction, remodels, boat production,auto repair and the list goes on and on.You know the work is being done by illegal people, and you support this because you like the cheap labor and it saves you $$$money. The people would not be here if we did not hire them and support the buisness of our communities. Talk is Cheap!!! Don’t put us all in together like that
That’s like some one saying all Mexican are all the same
I don’t pay a man by the color of skin equal treatment
Job Experience and how much work he dose sets the pay
Won’t hire some one that is not legal
The speak English part would help most people we are in America
Talk is Cheap F!!!K that i do every thing legal to suport my talk vot for thing i want agenst thigs i dont
and stand up for some one that is being cheated by an employer

mike37
09-18-2002, 04:45 PM
haulina29
you are right well said

Havasu Cig
09-18-2002, 04:56 PM
watergirl:
Havasu Cig:
watergirl:
That's exactly why I said that I do agree that some come over here and take advantage of the situation,but not all do.
There are alot of MEXICANS that come here and scrub the toilets you handle your business in and pick the fruit you eat and clean the offices you work in for a measly 2 dollars an hour just to make some money to pay the rent for a 1 bedroom apartment with a family of 8 living in it.
I see alot of MEXICANS BUSTING THERE ASS TO MAKE A BETTER LIFE FOR THERE FAMILY.I don't know where you are finding someone to work for $2.00 an hour. The guys who do day labor want $10.00 an hour and lunch. That is under the table as well without taxes taken out.
I have nothing against Hispanics and have many friends that are from Hispanic descent (sp), but there are some things that piss me off. After september 11 alot of people in my town in North san Diego county were flying American flags. If you drove through the Barrio all you saw was Mexican flags flying. Why don't they show some loyalty and support to the country they are living in. My.02.Well first off you don't come from the same neighborhood I do. People in my neighborhhod would work for any amount of money to support their family.Let me tell you $2 an hour to them is like making $20 an hour were they came from, so unless they just came here to take advantage then they are happy that they are at least making that.
Thanks to everyone interested in my opinion and for my stars.
Peace and love to all! :D Well what neighborhood would that be? The town I live in has a very large hispanic community made up of mostly first generation immigrants (legal and illegal). These areas are very poor and I doubt any better off than the people where you live.
I worked construction for several years, and still have many friends that do. I have first hand knowledge of what these guys will work for, and it is nowhere close to $2.00 an hour.
I have an Hispanic legal resident alien that works at my house often and he gets $10.00 an hour. When he has not been available I have used others and they all want at least that. That being said, this guy is the hardest worker I have ever seen.
I really don't want to argue with you but I think $2.00 an hour is an exageration!!
BTW: I did not touch your stars :cool:
[ September 18, 2002, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: Havasu Cig ]

Jrocket
09-18-2002, 05:10 PM
TCHB:
We Americans are all talk about this issue. We say we do not want illegal people here but we all hire them for low paying service jobs that are own kids would never do.Talk is Cheap!!!Not all of us are all talk.No,I do not hire any illegal people to do my work.Talk is cheap and so is the quality of there work.Im not about bashing people for wanting to better their lives.Im more against the illegals that come here and take our money,dont pay taxes and dont respect our country.I dont care what country they come from,even though the most populous would be Mexico,I still dont hate anyone for wanting a better life.We all want it better.Whenever we talk about illegal's,the first thing we recognize is Mexican's.Because the ratio is very high compared to any other nationallity.Sometimes its the people that are born here that have less respect and are more ignorant to our country than the illegals.Theres many different situations out there on illegal alien's.It's just hard not to single out the Mexican's,only because of the vast majority of them.You can drive around and see many different colors of people that dont give a shit about work and or this country.All they want is their check that the Government OWES them on the 1st and the 15th.These are the people that bother me.The lazy legal bastards that would rather look for some easy way out or have an excuse not to work a day in their life.Just because they think this country OWES them something either from the past or the present time.
Awww screw it.........now I got a headache..

mike37
09-18-2002, 05:13 PM
One more thing F!!!!!k politic talk on hot boat let’s talk about boats and chicks

mike37
09-18-2002, 05:33 PM
lets see if my new avatar work