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Doesnt Ford still hold the most wins in NASCAR history?
Let's just pretend for a second that the NASCAR sanctioning body would have let the 427 cammer run on the big ovals... Hemi would just be another insult.
Lest we not forget the old ford truck engines that cleaned house at Lemans in the 60's driving the GT40's. They were FE's (stands for ford EDSEL) and the import boyz still couldnt hang. Those were truly ford production engine castings...
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You should be building a BBF then, what's stopping ya? :confused:
A couple of buck's, that's no excuse!! :)
Warp Speed :D
the tx-19 i bought came with a bbc, and i've been kiciking myself ever since i bought it for not yanking the fresh 11 to 1 bbf outta my sj and making a swap between the 2 boats before i sold the sj;)
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No, I'm old enough to remember the early days. Ford and Chrysler owned the racing world. Unfortunatly, that is all you guy's have to fall back on. And don't get me wrong, it is something to be proud of. But instead of thanking all the brilliant Ford guy's of the time, you should be thanking the "bean counters" that ran GM then. Duntov and the boy's were forced to destroy more cool race engines than Ford or Chrysler ever produced. The "bean counters" that ran everything back then didn't see any advantage to racing in the market place (morons). So we got to sit back with our hands tied and watch the domination.
As Zora said "if it wasn't for the Chevy bean counters, the Cobra would have never been a threat".
Unfortunatly, bean counters present, Cobra dominates. Same thing for the early stock car era.
And it wasn't NASCAR being in GM's back pocket that ended the hayday of the Hemi-Boss-Cammer era, it was lack of good tires, too high speeds (no such thing!!) and fan safety that brought that to an end. Not to mention the FED regulations that killed performance cars of the era for ever.
And no, I don't think that the Lumina, the FWD Monte ect. are "real stock cars" but neither were the Taurus, Fusion or any of the others that have been used since the late eighties, regardless of make.
So keep talking about the "early day's", but they are gone forever. :confused:
Warp Speed :D
And how many chebbys are dominating the super stock ranks these days?
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OK, i'm gonna put this whole Ford vs Chevy to rest now. I'll start with Ford designing the 1st low cost single casting V8 block in 1932. There had been V8s before but only high priced cars with multiple piece cast block assemblys. It was Ford engineers that figured how to properly balance a V8 engine and use the firing order to equalize bearing loads. It was Ford that designed the 1st 180 deg intake manifold for equal fuel distribution. It was Ford that used state of the art casting techniques and developed "Thinwall" castings. It was Ford that developed Nodular Iron for cast crankshafts [1951] that GM imitated when the Patent ran out after 17 years, GM called their cast parts "Armisteel" or something to that effect. Rumor has it that it was Ford that designed the Small block Chevy engine for GM as they had no light weight low priced V8 engine to replace the old inline 6that powered Chevys for years. Ford designed 2 V8 engines in the very early 50s, one for domestic passenger car use and the other for world distribution for cars and light trucks. Ford felt the 'SBC' design was not strong enough for use in trucks and meet the demands of use in South America, Europe and Asia they decided to sell the light weight version. When that decision was made to keep the "World" engine the other design was offered to and sold to GM. Bullshit you say? Maybe, but consider this: early 265 V8s in Chevys had no part numbers on the block and heads and manifold, the oil filter was the same bypass type used on Flatheads, GM did not use any thinwall casting tecniques that were employed in the 1st Chevy V8s, but Ford did and called their thinwall castings "Precision Molding" All other GM castings were much more primitive at that time. Look at the way Oldsmobile, Buick, Cadillac and Pontiac engines were cast, quite primitive. I could say the SBC was the 1st low priced GM engine to use a full pressure oiling as the Stovebolt 6 used "dipper" rods and a oil tray in the pan to lube the poured babbit bearings, but I won't. The SBC uses a similar firing order as the Flathead if you account for the difference in cylinder numbering. This all may be bullshit but there were people that swear this is true but are no longer alive to confirm. This was taken from an article written by a Automotive journalist that interviewed a former Ford employee that claims to did some of the design work of the "Lightweight passenger car engine" that Ford sold. Now before you Chevy guys start having heart palpatations and blather that Zora Argus Duntov[sp] was the creator of the SBC consider this: He designed a beautiful set of Hemi heads for the Flathead Ford and they were called Ardun heads so there may have been a connection with Ford and GM thru him. Most old-timers remember the famous memo sent to the GM president from Duntov on how to steal the "Youth Market" from Ford as GM was severly lacking in a low priced exciting car that the youth was using to hotrod. Perhaps GM exectutives listened and acted when oppertunity knocked.
It'll take allot more than any of us can do to ever put this to rest, as it has been going on for as long as there has been the nameplates. Allot sharper guy's than any of us have tried to do so both on and off the race track for years and it hasn't worked. That is what has driven the evolution of the american performance/race engine.
So don't flatter your self 058 :D
I know for a fact the "Ford designed the small block chevy" is nothing more than a conspiracy theory started because Zora had relations with Ford pryor to going to work for GM, but Ford was "too smart" to listen to him (maybe a little too smart at the time, can you imagine what Shelby and Duntov could have done together?!?) about the hemi and other things so he got frustrated and parted way's.
Shortly after him landing at GM on the Corvette side (hell ya GM was lost back then, our flagship sports car had a straight six in it!) is when the design phase started on the small block, and he "assisted" Ed Cole and a group of other young engineers (one of whom I know) on the design and development of the new engine.
The first one's had no oil filter, or provisions for one, and the late (early one's) had the type that was the most tried and true of the time (better stuff being developed and used by others at the time, but we're still learnin').
Zora was instrumental in showing GM the "performance side" and how valuable it was to sales both present and future. Still, the front office kept there hands tied so they weren't able to do what they wanted to do so success was little when it came to the mid to late 60's performance day's as we know them. The success we had was from Zora, Smokey and variouse other individuals that presented their "what if" ideas to GM and the race track at the same time. Unfortunatly they were always shot down by the "Bean Counter" mentality and back ground of the upper brass at the time, there for it was short lived and spuratic, but there none the less.
The same goes for today. Ford was given the opportunity to submit a new engine design this year in NASCAR. It wasn't because the old engine isn't competative (The old small block Chev still winning races and championships also) but because Chrysler, and now Toyota had came back in the fray, and were given basic guidlines for dimensions and such, but otherwise a clean sheet of paper to design their new "stock car" engine with (and man has learned a thing or two in the last 50 years about manufacturing and race engine design!). NASCAR thought it only fair that GM and Ford should be allowed the same luxury. Ford worked on a new piece, and spent allot of time and money doing it, but withdrew thinking that the teams had enough change to work with due to the release of the new "Car of Tomorrow" :( (slumping sales by all american car company's and other financial woes played into it as well, along with maybe wanting to see what we did also).
GM on the other hand (they do catch on!) feels the performance part is bigger than ever in the US market, and we need to go as hard as we can if we were going to keep up with the forein manufacturer's onslaught (both American racing as we know it, and car and truck sales). So we worked night and day to develope the new engine, and the new car, and all other related systems. What happened? We stomped everybodie's ass all year (remember the 60's? we do!!). :D We actualy broke records dating back to 1953!!!
And believe me, NASCAR didn't give us nothin as they had the microscope on EVERYBODY this year!!! (especialy our teams)
If you look back, it was almost like in the 60's when a manufacturer came out with one of their secret super engine's, and domination ensued. But today, it isn't all about the engine anymore. I wish I could say it was all engine :D but it is more about the people working on them, the people working on the vehicles they go in (cirlce car, drag car, road race, boat, tractor pull ect.) and the support they have, beit the front office of your race team, the front office of your chosen manufacterer or vendor.
I've built plenty of Fords, worked for and had success with Jack Roush but my heart has always been with Chevy's since falling in love with my older brothers '64 Corvette when I was about seven.
Brand loyalty is up to what you like and everybody is different.
As I said in my first post in this thread (and I try to stay out of these vs. ones) Quit whinning about rules (yes, I know they are there but everybodie has the same ones) and bragging about yester year and start working on you shit. We just gave you a heapin' helpin' of what you are bragging about! And that goes for any racing venue.
Remember Pearl Harbor? One of the most well thought out and executed attacks in the history of confrontation. Caught us all sleeping and resting on our laurels.
That is until their plan of attack on the US auto market mature's, then the Harbor attack may take second place
We all had better get to work and quit whinning about this and that (too much anyway :D ) before Toyota decides to go drag racing also!!!
I would say class dissmissed to ya 058, but I'm not smart enough to teach anyone much, especialy not you. Just an observation by a racer!
Damn, what too much sleep will do!
Warp Speed :D
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And how many chebbys are dominating the super stock ranks these days?
I'm sorry 472...........did you say something???? :sleeping:
Warp Speed :D
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I'm sorry 472...........did you say something???? :sleeping:
Warp Speed :D
Typical chebby owner, hemi dominates super stock, top fuel, funny car etc etc, but hey you can buy cheap shit parts.
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Damn Warp, ya burning up the keyboard this morning.:D Nuthun like a little friendly discourse to stave off the winter boredom. Your points are well taken as I hope you take mine. In all seriousness I will never badmouth the Chevy, it is a good product but there is other products out there that are as good. This is for the guys that think the sun rises and sets on...._____ you fill in the blank. I gotta correct you on one point though, I don't type this stuff from my parent's basement. They died many years ago and I'm close to retirement age but its nice of you to think of me as a young whippersnapper, almost as good as getting carded when I buy beer.:D but that hasn't happen in over 40 years.
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Key words are "Look back".
Well, Ford needs to start looking forward, cause that's were the competition is these days!! (both foreign and domestic)
Boy, if that comment isn't setting up an ASS WHIPPIN by Ford next year I don't know what is!! :redface:
Warp Speed :DWarp, you're dedicated and delusional, and I lke that. :D
So all you can say about what I wrote above is about my "look back" comment? Well, that's all any of us have to go on is past history, so yes, my point is look back at the dominance and winning records. It takes history to establish a champion, not just a few lucky years in a few lucky venues. Ford has always been an underdog to GM, yet they've handed GM their ass over the years more times than GM's handed Ford theirs. Like I said, the currrent Ford NASCAR engine still represents the basic windsor/Cleveland design, but your 7th, 8th, 19th, and 35th generation (or however many) GM NASCAR engine isn't anything close to anything "production" that GM offers. Keep trying, though.
The pendulem always swings. Once in a while it swings far enough in your direction to warrant some credit, so enjoy it while it lasts. :D
Oh, and as far as bean counters, I think it was Ford that completely dropped out of racing for how many years??? You think maybe that has something to do with what ever advantage you guys might have?
It's pretty much the reason the aftermarket and racing industry is so dominated (in numbers) by Chevy. Imagine to your dismay if you will, what it would be like if Ford had continued racing through the years.
I think Ford has proven throughout the years that when they wanted to come out and race, they'd do it, and do it with an unmistakeably successful and dominant presence, the underdog that they are.
That's why I've always liked Ford.
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imagine if bbfs had the option of a million different head designs, intakes, pistons. how about a cheaper 4340 bbf crankshafts,blower intakes,etc.. this wouldn't even make a good conversation if they did ;)
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imagine if bbfs had the option of a million different head designs, intakes, pistons. how about a cheaper 4340 bbf crankshafts,blower intakes,etc.. this wouldn't even make a good conversation if they did ;)
Yeah...Fords might actually stand a chance! :D