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So im pricing parts to piece together a BBC and im realizing that crate motors a good value. Im now thinking about a Merlin 509 from Summit for $7500. Sounds like a really good deal and there is no way one could buy the parts and build it for that price. Whats everyones thoughts on a crate motor. This came off of HTP's web sight. Looks pretty trick.
http://www.hi-techperformance.com/im...72_4243_cr.jpg
http://www.hi-techperformance.com/im...72_4244_cr.jpg
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In white water racing there is an entire class built around the ZZ4, and although I know you are considering a different motor, we run the snot out of the ZZ4's with good results. I don't think its uncommon for people to get nearly 200 hours out of them and that's almost entirely at WOT. My motor isn't quite ZZ4 specs and I smoked it at the worlds so I'll be picking up a new ZZ4 this winter. You may want to ask some people over on the Eagle Racing Forum, I think some of the A and Unlimited class have been tinkering with the GM ZZ572 and variations in an attemppt to lower the ever increasing cost of race motors running at over 6,000 RPM. I know there is at least one guy running a bone stock ZZ502 and getting over 90MPH out of it in an Eagle Tunnel. Good Luck-Aluminum Squirt
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Interesting stuff. With all the talk about how marine engines being built different than car engines and most crate engines being advertised as not for marine use, these last two posts have me thinking twice. I was looking at the Merlin 509ci 540 hp crate that summit sells for $7500 and having it set up for marine use with looser clearances. Now im rethinking my ideas.
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I ran a Ford Motorsport 460 shortblock, and ran the piss out of it. It was spinning 6400 until the cam broke, and the cam was a Crane. So I would say for the money you cant beat a crate motor.
For the price of most crate motors you cant even buy the parts they are using in them. That 509 looks like a deal. Even if you go through it and change a few parts or some machineing, you will still spend less then if you built the same motor from scratch.
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Just a word of caution to everyone about the ZZ572 engines. We've used several of the crate engines. They are very good engines, BUT, YOU MUST BREAK THEM IN EASILY! If you take a new one out and have to see how fast your boat will go the first day, you are probably one that will lose a motor. But, if you break it in nice and easy like a good boy, (I know, it's damn hard to do), they will live forever, it seems. They are really strong running engines. The 620 hp version of the engine is the first engine I've ever seen that made MORE HP on the dyno than it was rated at. 662 HP to be exact.
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What parts gave way on em Duane. Not that I'm looking to convert or anything...............just curious really.
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If you take them out and run them hard, thay can seize up the pistons and break. The motors are set up awfully tight. Just need to limber them up a little before you stand on them. But, MAN, they DO RUN!
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what are peoples thoughts on the new 383 crate small block?
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Hey Taylorman, here's a link to a little discussion over on the Eagle Racing forum. www.eagleracing.ca/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=3792 Not a ton of useful information but there are a couple of people lurking on the ER forum that have some good info on running those motors extremely hard. Currently there are two classes of white water racing built around crate motors, the FXSB class which is mostly (all I think?) ZZ4 but does allow for the Ford/Chrysler equivalent, and the FXBB class which is new and is mostly ZZ502 but also allows for the Ford/Chrysler equivalent. The FXSB class occasionally sees speeds a little over 80 and the FXBB class has been showing speeds just over 90. The FX class is pretty well established here in the states and the motors have been very reliable. The FXBB class was brand new last season and there were only two boats. The Unlimited class has some incredible machinery but I think even the very wealthy, or very well sponsored, teams are getting tired of throwing down $50K+ motors and having the A class boats run away and hide from them. There are more than a couple of teams looking into the ZZ572 as an alternative because at around $13K, you can show up with a race trailer full of them compared to even two full race Unlimited motors. If they can make them run WOT for 30-60 minutes, I don't see why you couldn't get one to do quite nicely in a lake boat, but then again, I don't know all that much about motors-Aluminum Squirt
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Taylorman if you are considering the zz572 this place has about the best price I have seen on them. After all what is another $4500. I think this one comes with a warrantee also??
http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/results...umber=12498793
Omega
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I agree on the crate motors. I have a freind with a 502/502 crate motor in a 23ft wellcraft nova. The motor has over 200 very hard hours on it to date and the only thing that has been changed is the oil. The wellcraft runs an honest 70mph on the gps and makes those 70 to 80mph speedo bajas suck hind tit. When I can aford one, the crate motor will get my money. Taylorman i included bill mitchells link here. You can get a free catalog and by direct from him if you want to.Bill Mitchell Racing Engines (http://www.theengineshop.com/) Let us know if you get one.
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Wow, so everyone is running them straight out the box. I wonder why they all say not for marine use?
Now the debate is whether to go with a ZZ502 or the Merlin. Both are $7500. Any ideas?
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[QUOTE=Dragboats]Certainly not an expert tho my experience has shown when I did some research: Heads and cams typically are set up for a different torque curve. A marine engine must develop most of its torque on the low end of throttle range. This allows for the ability to use a single gear transmission system. Brass freeze plugs instead of steel and carburetors with J bowls... Marine head gaskets can be unique as well. Marine can also mean to be used in salt water so then you have a whole host of things that would be different from a car motor mostly bolt on items. Its all about parts matching for the application, a boat is a asummed that you will be driving the engine harder than you would a car, so maybe the parts used should reflect that use. These crate motors when they say "not recommended for marine use" I feel is taking into consideration that one may put it in salt and or enclosed engine compartments with a non coast guard approved induction system that may come with some of the crate motors. Anyway just my 02. I have ran SO MANY Crate and so called car motors in boats and to tell you the truth if all your parts are working well together in your application you should have no problems... Some also say various metal contents in some blocks offer less corrosion damage due to salt and lack of coolants (not found in lakes and rivers).
Hope this helps,
Denis
Well Said.
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Interesting stuff. With all the talk about how marine engines being built different than car engines and most crate engines being advertised as not for marine use, these last two posts have me thinking twice. I was looking at the Merlin 509ci 540 hp crate that summit sells for $7500 and having it set up for marine use with looser clearances. Now im rethinking my ideas.
Taylorman,
Were are you Located?
If your near Sac Bob @ Spartan Engine Development & Machine Works knows his stuff and he does it right! However he can not be rushed, he is back logged quite a bit.
He is worth every dollar spent IMO.
Spartan Engine Development
604 Houston St West Sacramento, CA 95691-2216
916-371-7050
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Hey Hallz, I'm in Sac. Never dealt with Bob. Does he have a dyno? Sometime this fall/winter I'll be buying a ZZ4 for the race boat and I want somebody to put it on a dyno to get my timing/jetting/cam break in etc squared away so there is less chance of me breaking something. Would he be a good guy to go to with this? I'm not a motor guy so I want to reduce the chance of me breaking anything as best I can-Aluminum Squirt
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Hey Taylor Man,
If you will look at the peek torque & hp numbers on the gm crate motors they sure look good with an a or a/b impellor. Im thinking your boat would be a good 80mph boat on the motor with just a 502/502, maybe more.
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Just some food for thought... Im putting together a NA 540. If you keep an eye out for good deals and buy good parts either new or used, you can get a lot more motor than your budget would have allowed had you paid for everything retail. The only thing I have bought used so far were a carb, manifold, and block, and I've saved about 1500 bucks and have some serious parts for my motor.
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I am the guy placecraft 20 wrote about, with the ZZ502.
All I can tell you as far as the difference in the 509 and the 502 is generally the block the GM 502 block is bored and finish honed to 4.447 and can only be overbored 1 time to 5.00 . The 509 blocks usually are a bowtie block and can be overbored several times and use the older style covers (timingchain, ect). I have put over 200 hours on my ZZ502, most of it has been run between 4500 and 5400 rpm. The 502 does come with a suggested redline of 5800 and I have never seen in my boat over 5600. I did follow the break in directions and put at least 20 hours on it before ever really holding it wide open. Good luck and enjoy.
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Rollmaster timming chains, proform or harlan roller rockers, used manifolds, forged H beam rods, 10 under steel cranks, and a good set of used ported heads are all good ways to build a good HP motor on a budget!
As long as they are quality parts and preped correctly you can streach your $$ quite a way.
Here is an example I am picking up a new rebuilt 454 long block with TRW Forged 10:1 pistons, X-drilled steel crank, Stock rods w/ARP bolts, Clevite 77 bearings,melling hv/hp oil pump,Total seal rings, brass freeze plugs, all the tins and FelPro gaskets for $1500.
The heads are std ovalport that have been pocket ported and crane gold 1.8 roller rockers.
I am going to replace the rod with a set of H beams, bore it +30 and sell the std's to help pay for the new parts.
Once I swap over to the BBC I am going to add a set of AFR 2100-1 heads and go with a solid roller valvetrain.
I am hoping to be around the 6k mark and 600 hp, then the 150-200 shot of N20.
I am planning on a 2 year build out, anything may change buy then.
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Taylorman, Were are you Located?
Im in Louisiana but thanks anyway.
Im thinking your boat would be a good 80mph boat on the motor with just a 502/502, maybe more.
That statement gives me wood. :D
I think Taylorman is in the middle of or near a SH#T Storm headin right for him BUMMER. Be safe Taylorman :(
Actually we missed it. Ive been on the internet today looking at the damage. Gulf Shores, Al and Pensacola, Fl are demolished. Gulf Shores got the worst. So sad because we were there just last month for the offshore boat races and its such a nice place. The news said that water from the ocean has come inland for over a mile.
Just some food for thought... Im putting together a NA 540. If you keep an eye out for good deals and buy good parts either new or used, you can get a lot more motor than your budget would have allowed had you paid for everything retail. The only thing I have bought used so far were a carb, manifold, and block, and I've saved about 1500 bucks and have some serious parts for my motor.
If you don't mind me asking, how much do you anticipate spending on your motor. I am putting a cap at the 502 price of $7500. I can always upgrade it later for more hp but it think for the price of the ZZ502 or the Merlin 509, they are hard to pass up.
I am the guy placecraft 20 wrote about, with the ZZ502.
All I can tell you as far as the difference in the 509 and the 502 is generally the block the GM 502 block is bored and finish honed to 4.447 and can only be overbored 1 time to 5.00 . The 509 blocks usually are a bowtie block and can be overbored several times and use the older style covers (timingchain, ect). I have put over 200 hours on my ZZ502, most of it has been run between 4500 and 5400 rpm. The 502 does come with a suggested redline of 5800 and I have never seen in my boat over 5600. I did follow the break in directions and put at least 20 hours on it before ever really holding it wide open. Good luck and enjoy.
Not to disagree with you but Infomaniac said in another post that the Gen VI blocks could be bored to 4.6 and the Merlins could be bored to 4.625 and maybe more.
Thanks for all the info. This is a great thread. Very informative from real world experience.
Im most likely going to lean toward the Merlin when im ready to buy. I think it offers more potential for upgrades down the road. Im gonna take baby steps.
Olds-Merlin 509-Blown Merlin 509.
Im getting wood again.
Later guys
Thanks
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Hey Hallz, I'm in Sac. Never dealt with Bob. Does he have a dyno? Sometime this fall/winter I'll be buying a ZZ4 for the race boat and I want somebody to put it on a dyno to get my timing/jetting/cam break in etc squared away so there is less chance of me breaking something. Would he be a good guy to go to with this? I'm not a motor guy so I want to reduce the chance of me breaking anything as best I can-Aluminum Squirt
Bob is a pritty strange guy, he has access to the one he uses but he usualy will only do that type of stuff (dyno) on the motors he builds and tunes for his very serious coustomers. From my understanding he is getting ready to retire and is spending his time being very maticulous and serious with his longtime coustomers. However if you have the time and are serious about building a motor he is one of (if not) the best I have ever seen and dealt with. Better than Rex, RSM, etc...
You would probaly be better off with Ed Bogart for what you are looking to do.
Good luck,
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Thanx for the info. I'll look up Ed. Works out well because I live in EG, at least for now-Aluminum Squirt
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Beter than REX???? Yea sure dude, when you hold the name REX up to the mirror it spells GOD :) You'll get Bad GuGu talkin like that..................
LOL,
I have known Rex for a LONG time, He and my father use to race with each other for years! (he knows my father) "HE" is great! lol and "he" does great work. I have not been to the shop for a few years but from what I hear he has another "god" working with him now, so all the past "concerns" people had should be all gone.
The bennifit of Bob is that the is the only one that does the work and his attention for detail is un canny. A bit of a perfectionist and controle freak (IMO) but that can be a good thing.
We all have our opinions as to what Machinist/Builder we use and who we all feel is "the best". To me the problem is usualy not the Machinist but what happens after it is all laid out. People like to change the combo's parts and dam near everything else after the work has been done and or the motor built. Pore Rex had a bad rep for a bit, but from what I Know most of it was due in part to the situation above. People would get a motor from him, think they could make it better and change some things and Blow the motor or run sub-par #'s and run their mouth and plame his work.
Talk to some of the local guys and Ask about Spartin Eng. devlopment, I am sure you'll hear 95% good things. He has a great list of refrences, John Shoemaker, Dick Bertolucci, Bonnie & Lee Roy Philson etc....
LOL, it's all good I am in no way knocking Rex.
As for my boat, Its a 73 Wriedt At the moment it is torn down :frown: to re due the Int, Pump, and awaiting droping in the re built 455. I am working on switching to a BBC but it will be 1-2 years probaly if I do. The 455 was built buy Don Turner at Anyweither Machine, The BBC will be done By Bob if and when he has the time.
I would love to stop buy sometime and see your boat, I am just getting into the boat deal and need to learn all I can. Im alwase in the CH area. I don't know much at all so I figured no better way but to tear this one down and go through it. The car scene was my deal, now I am looking to find a new thrill so I can get my addrennalin fix!
Mike
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what are peoples thoughts on the new 383 crate small block?
Great power, ran great untill it blew up
PM me for more details
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I saw a thread not too long ago talking about a crate engine - saying they don't have the right exhaust valves or cam (too much overlap) for wet headers. I searched for the thread again and can't find it.
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I've used several of those crate motors in jet boats, and have never had a problem with that.
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If you take them out and run them hard, thay can seize up the pistons and break. The motors are set up awfully tight. Just need to limber them up a little before you stand on them. But, MAN, they DO RUN!
How much break in time?
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Teague sells a 509 ci Merlin Marine Crate motor with 575 hp for $11000.
I asked the guy at Teague the price of their NA 620 hp motor and he said $29000. WTF makes them so much more than other crate motors. Their is no way to justify that price.
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Taylorman, since your still doing research give Joe at Owens Racing Engines in Pearland Tx. a call. 281-485-5257. Tell him the guy with the 19' Baja jet boat recommended you call. He built my motor in '97 and it has been bullet proof. I was very happy with the price and quality of his work.
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I'll vouch for it being a really good motor too. I worked with it some.
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These don't look to bad. I have no experiance with them but, price looks interesting. :supp: http://www.smedingperformance.com/pe...ce_engines.htm
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I saw a thread not too long ago talking about a crate engine - saying they don't have the right exhaust valves or cam (too much overlap) for wet headers. I searched for the thread again and can't find it.
I found it:
http://www.***boat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49104
.
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These don't look to bad. I have no experiance with them but, price looks interesting. :supp: http://www.smedingperformance.com/pe...ce_engines.htm
This is the exact engine i wanted to build. Has all the same features i wanted in an engine including the heads. Nice price for a marine engine. Anyone know anything about smeding performance?
http://www.smedingperformance.com/im...540_marine.jpg
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Teague sells a 509 ci Merlin Marine Crate motor with 575 hp for $11000.
I asked the guy at Teague the price of their NA 620 hp motor and he said $29000. WTF makes them so much more than other crate motors. Their is no way to justify that price.
Taylorman,
The difference between those two motors, is one is basically a carb to pan deal, and the other is a complete with exhaust type setup. The real question you would want to ask the guys at Teague in regard to your project is, "whats the difference between your 575hp Merlin 509, and the one I can buy through Summit for 3k less?" I'm sure they would fax you a component list on "their" setup. Then compare it to the Merlin crate deal. My guess is that its the same motor, they just open up the piston to wall and valve guide clearances a touch, maybe add iconnel exhaust valves.
Chris
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Ok Taylorman,
I'm following this thread. We've talked and there are a lot of open doors out there. The Smedling engines look promising. Prices wise, not a bad deal at all, add the carb and some tin to the motor you have a hell of a deal. I'm trying to figure go with the 540ci/520hp Marine for $8895, when you can go with the 540ci/590hp Extreme for $8495. :confused: Thay both run stainless valves. The Marine has the larger intakes, Inconnels, miniscule difference in the exhaust, and different cam profile. What gives?
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Ok Taylorman,
I'm following this thread. We've talked and there are a lot of open doors out there. The Smedling engines look promising. Prices wise, not a bad deal at all, add the carb and some tin to the motor you have a hell of a deal. I'm trying to figure go with the 540ci/520hp Marine for $8895, when you can go with the 540ci/590hp Extreme for $8495. :confused: Thay both run stainless valves. The Marine has the larger intakes, Inconnels, miniscule difference in the exhaust, and different cam profile. What gives?
I spoke to them yesterday for a while. This guy knew his stuff. He said the differences is mostly in the clearances. The marine engine runs looser piston wall, rod and main and valve guide clearances. Also different springs and a jet boat oil pan. The heads are also Edelbrock's MARINE heads with inconel exhaust valves. He also said the cam profile was marine specific, whatever that means. I asked him about the kind of parts they use and he said the crank and rods are Eagle and the pistons are SRP. This really looks like a nice engine.
Im going to call him back and ask him a couple more questions today about using nitrous and the redline rpm of the engine.
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Even though its a marine motor. I dont see much horsepower difference in the marine 540 and chevy's 502/502. The chevy 502 is about $2000 cheaper with a warranty. Did this guy say if he warrantied his motors. It looks like for the 8k that the bill mitchell motor is the buy. It comes carb to oil pan with a warranty and makes more power. I do like the hydraulic roller cam in the smeding engine. What do you guys think?
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Even though its a marine motor. I dont see much horsepower difference in the marine 540 and chevy's 502/502. The chevy 502 is about $2000 cheaper with a warranty. Did this guy say if he warrantied his motors. It looks like for the 8k that the bill mitchell motor is the buy. It comes carb to oil pan with a warranty and makes more power. I do like the hydraulic roller cam in the smeding engine. What do you guys think?
Im not sure that the ZZ502 would be warrantied if used in a boat. He told me there is no warranty on marine motors. I like to Hyd roller also. That accounts for a little increase in price due to the extra cost or a roller cam, but it does not have a carb. It does have a great set of heads.
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Im about to take the big plung. Im really leaning toward a Merlin 509ci 540 hp crate motor from Summit. They are $7500 plus $150 shipping. It was either a ZZ502 or the Merlin. The ZZ502 has oval port heads so i think i will go with the Merlin. They advertise that it comes already broken in. I know i will have to take it easy for a while to let it break in more but they say the cam is already broken in. I would like alum. heads and a hyd roller cam but i can live without them. What do you guys think? Im a little nervous about buying a street engine for my boat but a few very knowledgable guys posted that they have used them in boats with no problems. This will be a good platform for future upgrades.