Amnesty International condemns US

[zudnic]

PS WTF is a "Presidentancy?"
Same as office of president. Most times I word my posts and try to proof read, etc... In this usage did'nt want to repeat office in the same sentence..........

[eliminatedsprinter]

Is there not something known as the Geneva Convention that the US is/was a part of? Because the scum in the Mid east were not a part of what the Geneva Convention set forth, does not mean we abandon our morals and act like scum ourselves. IMO, doing so, places the US under a similar dark cloud.
With regard to your question regarding what is better torture or killing and what I would rather have happen to my Son. I don't believe you nor I are the ones to answer that question. I believe that there some forms of torture are so horrific that the one being tortured might choose a bullit through the head.
Our first President's army preceeded the Geneva Convention(s).
I have read the Geneva convention and it does not apply Al Queada. The Geneva Convention is very specific in how it discribes the soldiers and civilians that are covered under it (check out article 4). People like Al Queada are excluded for good reason. We should not extend the right of coverage under the Geneva convention to them, because to do so would undermine the civilized rules that it is trying to establish.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Well said.
Like I said, once we stop playing by our own rules and morals, the terrorists have already won.
Ya know what makes me laugh is when people call me a liberal. I've been a member of the RNC for a long time, donated to Bush's campaign, and I'm a conservative.
I'm fiscally conservative, bit socially liberal.
I think pot should be legal, I think taxes should be less, I think that there should be a lot less government intervention in our lives, and I think that it is nobler (and takes more balls) to stick to our principals regardless of the percieved threat.
If we are struck, we strike back fiercely and immediately, with firepower of biblical proportions. We don't turn into chicken shits.
Thanks
CA Stu
PS WTF is a "Presidentancy?"
I completely agree.
I have read the Geneva convention and it does not apply Al Queada. The Geneva Convention is very specific in how it discribes the soldiers and civilians that are covered under it (check out article 4). People like Al Queada are excluded for good reason. We should not extend the right of coverage under the Geneva convention to them, because to do so would undermine the civilized rules that it is trying to establish.
How do we undermine civilized rules by remaining civilized? I will check out article 4 and get back to you

[eliminatedsprinter]

The reason article 4 exists, to define who is covered by the convention, is because there were some forms of conduct, that they wanted to discourage, by leaving people that do such things uncovered by it's protections. Specifically people who dress as civilians and go into civilian areas for the purpose of sabotage, distruction, and violence etc.
It does protect civilian resistance fighters in their homelands and it does protect civilians who spontaniously pick up arms in support of their nations soldiers. It also protects militias (if they wear identifying clothes or badges etc) and civilian contractors.
On the other hand, saboteurs and terroists etc are intentionally left on their own and nations are not banned by the Convention from subjecting them to exicution or torture. That is the intention of the Convention, that we undermine by extending the protections of the Convention to those who it was specifically intended not to cover.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

The reason article 4 exists, to define who is covered by the convention, is because there were some forms of conduct, that they wanted to discourage, by leaving people that do such things uncovered by it's protections. Specifically people who dress as civilians and go into civilian areas for the purpose of sabotage, distruction, and violence etc.
It does protect civilian resistance fighters in their homelands and it does protect civilians who spontaniously pick up arms in support of their nations soldiers. It also protects militias (if they wear identifying clothes or badges etc) and civilian contractors.
On the other hand, saboteurs and terroists etc are intentionally left on their own and nations are not banned by the Convention from subjecting them to exicution or torture. That is the intention of the Convention, that we undermine by extending the protections of the Convention to those who it was specifically intended not to cover.
The text of Article 4
Art 4. A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:
(1) Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict, as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
(2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:
(a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) that of carrying arms openly;
(d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
(3) Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
(4) Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization, from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model.
(5) Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.
(6) Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.
B. The following shall likewise be treated as prisoners of war under the present Convention:
(1) Persons belonging, or having belonged, to the armed forces of the occupied country, if the occupying Power considers it necessary by reason of such allegiance to intern them, even though it has originally liberated them while hostilities were going on outside the territory it occupies, in particular where such persons have made an unsuccessful attempt to rejoin the armed forces to which they belong and which are engaged in combat, or where they fail to comply with a summons made to them with a view to internment.
(2) The persons belonging to one of the categories enumerated in the present Article, who have been received by neutral or non-belligerent Powers on their territory and whom these Powers are required to intern under international law, without prejudice to any more favourable treatment which these Powers may choose to give and with the exception of Articles 8, 10, 15, 30, fifth paragraph, 58-67, 92, 126 and, where diplomatic relations exist between the Parties to the conflict and the neutral or non-belligerent Power concerned, those Articles concerning the Protecting Power. Where such diplomatic relations exist, the Parties to a conflict on whom these persons depend shall be allowed to perform towards them the functions of a Protecting Power as provided in the present Convention, without prejudice to the functions which these Parties normally exercise in conformity with diplomatic and consular usage and treaties.
Based on what is contined in Art 4, Al Queada isn't covered. I stand corrected.

[zudnic]

Torture to get a confession or what the North Vietnamese and Hanoi Jane bought into, torturing service guy's to go against there country is wrong. Torture for information to stop the enemy, I not only do not see this as wrong. I would do it in a heart beat. Remember the guy who shot over that terrorist scumbags head? Liberals freaked, I was why did'nt he put one in the leg of the terrorist POS leg!!!!!
F' the UN and European socialists freakin treaty. The simple fact is liberals give up to easily, when things get a little tough. Vietnam rules of engagement you cant at an enemies plane first cause it might be piloted by a Russian advisor. Can only take out SAM sites on that days target list. Cant bomb bases because of Russian adviser's. Nixon's only crime was stopping to fight Vietnam with PC micro managed by politicians in DC tactics. He un-leashed the military and let them follow the enemy into their safe havens, air bases, Cambodia and Laos.... Dems stopped him, they could not afford even another North Korean style dividing line victory, operation linebacker almost accomplished that. Until the Dems and p*ssies in Congress made it known they wanted to re-tie the military! Hence why they set him up and covered their stupid losing strategies in Vietnam. As in whats the first thing that comes to your head when Air America and the CIA is mentioned! Heroine running cowboy's, not the heroes those boys truelly are..........
Amnesty International is as use-less as the UN.... As for torture, like racial profiling can stop crimes. Define torture?

[ULTRA26 # 1]

While I stood corrected with regard to to the Geneva Convention, doesn't mean that I believe that anyone has the right, or it is proper to torture another human being. I remember my mother telling me repeatedly,
2 wrongs don't make a right. I am also not a believer in an eye for an eye.
We as Americans are above torturing any living thing and I believe that it is our Country's best interest for Americans not to operate at a level like those we are at war with. Peace

[centerhill condor]

. I remember my mother telling me repeatedly,
2 wrongs don't make a right. I am also not a believer in an eye for an eye.
Peace
Momma's boy speaks...apparently Momma never spanked you for making your sister cry!
eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, and lash for lash! know justice know peace. No justice no peace.
So, gov. if kitty was raped and murdered you wouldn't seek the death penalty?
How do you live in a state with so many people in custody? on death row?
Seems to me a man with your passion for conscience would protest without ceasing at the gov's mansion.

[Old Texan]

While I stood corrected with regard to to the Geneva Convention, doesn't mean that I believe that anyone has the right, or it is proper to torture another human being. I remember my mother telling me repeatedly,
2 wrongs don't make a right. I am also not a believer in an eye for an eye.
We as Americans are above torturing any living thing and I believe that it is our Country's best interest for Americans not to operate at a level like those we are at war with. Peace
So tell us how Momma would have handled a deranged maniac that wants to place the biggest most deadly bomb he can lay his hands on in the middle of a town of millions of innocent people? Get off your high horse and consider what you would do to get information from this killer in time to save the innocents. Hard to worry about moral grounds when the lives of millions are in YOUR hands and you must make a decision. John whose to say with these peopl? Are you willing to take a chance? If so you couldn't do their job nor should you place yourself in any position to suggest what they HAVE to do to make that one right instantaneous decision
Just can't help yourself to the condemnation of the efforts of brave men sacrificing themselves to save the lives of the innocent. It's war John, they hate our guts, real hate not that juvenile loathing so many mistake for hate. Real hate that causes desperation to destroy a people they don't even understand or really know.
Your Momma taught you manners, the Islamic terrorists Momma taught him blind hatred to kill. To kill YOU and to kill your Momma. Why John, because you are not like them.

[zudnic]

I wonder why I like Texas and Texans.....
This link is how I define torture, warning despite being legit mainstream news it maybe disturbing to some. If America was doing this than I would be disgusted as well as disturbed.......
http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-71-723-.../somalia/clip8