Amnesty International condemns US

[ULTRA26 # 1]

As I predicted. The man's point is THEY want to impose THEIR views on US and the rest of the world.
You see no threat from Islamic terrorism and believe if we leave Iraq the Islamic terrorist movement will just go away, but that is completely wrong.
The Iraq war has nothing to do with the Islamist extremism goals of world domination, and no that's not doom and gloom thinking. These people hate YOU and want to kill YOU or convert you. Do you not see that?
Osama doesn't want to kick back at the lake and throw back a few frosties with you. He wants to bind you to the helm of your boat, fill it full of fuel and explosives, and run it full throttle into the biggest group of innocent people on the lake. He doesn't want to negotiate, he doesn't want to compromise, he just wants to kill infidels and bring the whole world back to the stone age mentality you saw from the Taliban. The Taliban run the Islamic extremist idea of Utopia and they want to replace Ma and Apple Pie as the American way.
"That" John, is the bottom line today in the year 2007. You can't change it but you damn sure better learn to deal with it because it won't go away on it's own. Islamist extemism is like cancer, it is slowly and silently eating away at the rest of society and if ignored it will be to late. It didn't start in Iraq and it won't end there, but trust whomever this country chooses to lead us from 2009-2012, they damn sure better be ready to deal with this world threat or the next generation of your family very likely won't be sitting behind a computor at the vacation home, carefree waiting for an evening breeze and a pretty sunset. Ever watch the movie "Mad Max", it ain't as farfetched as it seemed when they filmed, now is it?
The man's point is THEY want to impose THEIR views on US and the rest of the world. IMO this is exactly what he US is doing.
This has all been discussed. I don't agree with your position and you don't agree with mine. Let's just agree to disagree, and try to move forward.
Have a nice weekend.
Peace

[eliminatedsprinter]

Their hatred of us (western civilization) is older than the U.S. Nothing we have done in the past 100 years, let alone the war in Iraq, will ever change it. Historically the only thing that has ever kept militant islam in check has been fear. These people act like predatory animals (often worse actually) and anyone knows that such creatures are most dangerous twards humans (or people who act humane) when they lose their fear of us. I know it is not a very idealistic viewpoint, but it unfortunatly seems to be an accurate one.
It very well may be that the only way to prevent them from forcing their way on us is for us to impose ours on them.

[eliminatedsprinter]

ES,
Wouldn't US occupation of Islamic Countries pose more of a threat to these people regarding the West shovng it's horrific beliefs down their throats.
If the people of Islam want to live in poverty or if they want to be sexually repressed, it's none of our business. There are areas of the world that are far more repressed and poor than Iraq.
IMO, it's time that the US stop policing the rest of the world with the use of military force, at try to regain the respect we once had.
Peace!
The only respect they have ever had twards the west, or anyone else, has come at the end of a gun or a sword. Historically, attempts at humanitarian aid have resulted in increased hostility and have been seen by islamists as a weakness that is benaeth their respect.
P.S. What goes on in islamic states goes far beyond sexual repression and poverty. This is where we definatly disagree, because I would like to see a western force step in and stop the slaughter in Darfur. But hey, you no doubt think that is their business too...

[eliminatedsprinter]

The man's point is THEY want to impose THEIR views on US and the rest of the world. IMO this is exactly what he US is doing.
This has all been discussed. I don't agree with your position and you don't agree with mine. Let's just agree to disagree, and try to move forward.
Have a nice weekend.
Peace
I wish we the entire western world would get together and do what you are accusing the US of doing. It just might save the future for our grandkids.
Agreeing to disagree is no fun at all. It's also a bit intellectually lazy. I say a spirited discussion is a good thing and nothing to fear, if one is confident in their ability to learn from others....

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Their hatred of us (western civilization) is older than the U.S. Nothing we have done in the past 100 years, let alone the war in Iraq, will ever change it. Historically the only thing that has ever kept militant islam in check has been fear. These people act like predatory animals (often worse actually) and anyone knows that such creatures are most dangerous twards humans (or people who act humane) when they lose their fear of us. I know it is not a very idealistic viewpoint, but it unfortunatly seems to be an accurate one.
It very well may be that the only way to prevent them from forcing their way on us is for us to impose ours on them.
It would seem obvious, based on the increased terrorist activities around the world that our presence in Iraq, has aggravated the situation. It also seems that the fear, that is believed to have keep militant Islam in check, has diminished as a result if our military actions. These people don't fear our military, this too should be obvious. I know of no time in the past 50 years where any nation has tried to impose their way on us and I don't see any nation ever being successful in such an endeavor
I agreed with the US going to Afghanistan in response to 9/11 for obvious reasons. IMO, the change in focus, from those responsible for 9/11 to Iraq, was a huge mistake, and this was my belief in 2003.
The only respect they have ever had twards the west, or anyone else, has come at the end of a gun or a sword. Historically, attempts at humanitarian aid have resulted in increased hostility and have been seen by islamists as a weakness that is benaeth their respect.
P.S. What goes on in islamic states goes far beyond sexual repression and poverty. This is where we definatly disagree, because I would like to see a western force step in and stop the slaughter in Darfur. But hey, you no doubt think that is their business too...
I don't believe that Islamists will never respect us, guns swords or otherwise. I was referring to respect from the rest of he civilized world. I too would like the genocide in Darfur to stop. I just don't believe that in the case of Darfur we can stop the slaughter by military force or any other means.
IMO, the only way to rid the world of Islam, is to entirely destroy the mid-east, which isn't an option.
I wish we the entire western world would get together and do what you are accusing the US of doing. It just might save the future for our grandkids.
Agreeing to disagree is no fun at all. It's also a bit intellectually lazy. I say a spirited discussion is a good thing and nothing to fear, if one is confident in their ability to learn from others....
ES,
One of the problems with your wish is, IMO, I don't believe that the people in the Mid-East will ever accept the Western way of life. IMO, it is just as unlikely as the West accepting Islam or the Israelis becoming Christians.
The US getting involved in the internal affairs of other nations, IMO, is a mistake, especially when the US no longer has the respect of much of the world. In September, if the assessment by General Petraeus is one of progress in Iraq, my view of things may change. However, based on what has occurred in Iraq, in the past 4 years, I'm not optimistic. IMO, the ills of this region cannot be cured with US military force.
It is my belief that when one loses the ability to learn, life is virtually over. I other words, I agree with you second comment. However, there are times when agreement seems impossible. Rather than continuing the same opposing dialog in hopes of one side changing is opinion, IMO, it may be better to move on to a new topic
Hope you are enjoying your weekend at home. I stayed home too, as the River and/or Havasu, have become a nightmare on Memorial Day weekend. Too many boats and too many drunk boat drivers.
Peace

[Old Texan]

The man's point is THEY want to impose THEIR views on US and the rest of the world. IMO this is exactly what he US is doing.
This has all been discussed. I don't agree with your position and you don't agree with mine. Let's just agree to disagree, and try to move forward.
Have a nice weekend.
Peace
Agreeing to disagree is just a copout to not being able to accept the possiblity your point is wrong. To tip toe around the proof that Islamic extremism exists won't make it go away.
The US presence in Iraq has little to do with the overall goals and wishes of these barbaric tyrants, it is just serving as an arena. Believing there is no threat from Islamic terror if the US were to leave Iraq is shortsighted and very dangerous to the citizens of "normal" society. The violence will continue and it will escalate into problems in other places.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

Agreeing to disagree is just a copout to not being able to accept the possiblity your point is wrong. To tip toe around the proof that Islamic extremism exists won't make it go away.
The US presence in Iraq has little to do with the overall goals and wishes of these barbaric tyrants, it is just serving as an arena. Believing there is no threat from Islamic terror if the US were to leave Iraq is shortsighted and very dangerous to the citizens of "normal" society. The violence will continue and it will escalate into problems in other places.
Call it what you would like. The US military will never make Islamic extremism go away. Believing that it will is a fairly tail. The longer we remain in Iraq, the greater the threat will become.
Iraq was a mistake in 2003 and it continues to be.
not being able to accept the possiblity your point is wrong.
THis applies to you too, Tex
The violence will continue and it will escalate into problems in other places
I believe this to be true regardless of our presence in Iraq.
Peace

[eliminatedsprinter]

What increase?? This has been going strong all over. It's just that 911 and Iraq have made us more acutely aware of what has been a chronic problem for many decades now. Remember Munich in 72, Sadat's demise, Lockerbee Scotland, the first world trade center bombings, the bloodshed in south asia, our embassy bombings and countless other attacks all over the world going back over the last 40+ years.... Oh no, if there has been and increase it has spent over 40 years building up. They have spent much time testing their limits and it has been our soft PC response that has been encouraging them on. In the first phases of Afganistan and Iraq this crap mellowed out a lot. Kadalfi suddenly got all nice and announced he would no longer pursue WMDs, Iran started talking all moderate for a brief while etc, etc, etc... This crap didn't start firing up again until we started showing political division here and overseas. When America and GB etc.. Were acting strong and united, like we had had enough, they clearly backed down. It wasn't unitil they saw that we were going to try to fight them without being mean to them, that they got emboldened again...
P.S. Since we both think Islamic extremism will never go away and since they have proven in the past they can not be negotiated with (they are true fanatics). How do you suggest we deal with them? I say we at least make them fear us enough to make them keep their heads down and we never let them get control of any nation's governments or operate out in the open again.

[ULTRA26 # 1]

What increase?? This has been going strong all over. It's just that 911 and Iraq have made us more acutly aware of what has been a chronic problem for many decades now. Remember Munich in 72, Sadat's demise, Lockerbee Scotland, the first world trade center bombings, the bloodshed in south asia, our embassy bombings and countless other attacks all over the world going back over the last 40+ years.... Oh no, if there has been and increase it has spent over 40 years building up. They have spent much time testing their limits and it has been our soft PC response that has been encouraging them on. In the first phases of Afganistan and Iraq this crap mellowed out a lot. Kadalfi suddenly got all nice and announced he would no longer pursue WMDs, Iran started talking all moderate for a brief while etc, etc, etc... This crap didn't start firing up again until we started showing political division here and overseas. When America and GB etc.. Were acting strong and united, like we had had enough, they clearly backed down. It wasn't unitil they saw that we were going to try to fight them without being mean to them, that they got emboldened again...
P.S. Since we both think Islamic extremism will never go away and since they have proven in the past they can not be negotiated with (they are true fanatics). How do you suggest we deal with them? I say we at least make them fear us enough to make them keep their heads down and we never let them get control of any nation's governments or operate out in the open again.
ES,
There are CIA reports out there that state that terrorism has increased as a result of our invasion of Iraq. I never meant to imply that there wasn't terrorist activity prior to 9/11 or Iraq.
I wish I had the answer with regard to how to deal these fanatics. I feel very strongly in my belief that our activity in Iraq, is not something these extremists fear. In fact, I believe we are just making is easy for them to kill Americans, which is exactly what they want.
It makes it impossible to be affective with military force for when the enemy is mixed with non enemy civilians. I would be all for this war if there was any chance of eliminating Islamic radicals. But there isn't.
Again, no I don't have the answer on how to deal with them, and that's assuming there is an answer. What we are are doing clearly isn't working thus far. As I said earlier, I await the Sept report from the General.
Peace

[Moneypitt]

ES,
It makes it impossible to be affective with military force for when the enemy is mixed with non enemy civilians. I would be all for this war if there was any chance of eliminating Islamic radicals. But there isn't.
Peace
That statement could be a reference to all the wars/conflicts since WWII. Especially Korea, and Vietnam. It is very difficult to fight some of the people in a given country, much eaiser to fight them all..........Just goes to show the kinder, gentler, PC correct country we've become is not suited to wage war. Our daily loses from this conflict are totally unnecessary if we really wanted to just win..........PC and war do not mix well.............MP