Havasu Marina noise

[phebus]

There is a new sign at the Lake Havasu Marina at the pay gate, that says after Sept.15th no boats louder than 86db will be allowed to launch there. They are pointing it out to everyone that launches there. I wish they were monitoring noise levels now, so you could know how loud your boat is, and whether or not you will comply.

[SoCalOffshore]

they said SB County cops were ticketing boats for noise and even telling some boats not to launch in AZ. What is the world coming to? :confused:

[dicudmore]

Originally posted by phebus
There is a new sign at the Lake Havasu Marina at the pay gate, that says after Sept.15th no boats louder than 86db will be allowed to launch there. They are pointing it out to everyone that launches there. I wish they were monitoring noise levels now, so you could know how loud your boat is, and whether or not you will comply.
If you have through transom exhaust, you're too loud :(
My 496HO measures 92 :rolleyes:

[KACHINA KEN]

Originally posted by SoCalOffshore
they said SB County cops were ticketing boats for noise and even telling some boats not to launch in AZ. What is the world coming to? :confused:
In FL they have the inter coastal waterways so I can understand a little bit of restraint being needed in that part of the world but there is not really much in the way of lakeshore property in Havasu to start with except a few choice lots and trailer properties of which I have never heard of folks complaning. What i really dont get is this codger (love that word) at the marina who makes alot of money off of big boats with loud engines, this isnt something that has happened recently these motors have been around since I was a twinkle in my Dads eye, for him to be harrassing folks because he is fed up with his positon as a marina owner or whatever his problem is equates to a slap in the face to everyone who has spent a dime there, it's the very worst type of businessman I can think of.
OK I am done.
Kenny

[Kilrtoy]

That place will be broke VERY SOON maybe even as soon as SEPT 16th....
Good for them. I hope they go bankrupt, It's probably run by this ION guy....

[KACHINA KEN]

How much is the ticket? F U C K EM. Give me 10 of em, I got money to burn when it comes to shit like this.

[TIBURON]

Ive been told to take my boat off the lake and not come back. Can they actually do that??? :mad: I guess I have to go get me some muflers.. F&%KN BULL-SHiiT :mad: :mad:

[Havasu_Dreamin]

Originally posted by TIBURON
Ive been told to take my boat off the lake and not come back. Can they actually do that??? :mad: I guess I have to go get me some muflers.. F&%KN BULL-SHiiT :mad: :mad:
They can prevent you from launching there, although it is a gray area since they do not own the land, they lease it from the BLM or City. But they can deny you access. I don't necessarily know if it truly is legal but a business does have a right to refuse service. Bottom line, if you're over 86 db then you're over the limit set by the law to begin with.
And as faras the marina going broke, won't happen. The parking lot is full every weekend. They can turn away 50 boats on the weekend and still make money.

[Havasu Cig]

And it continues...
When They were restricting boats over 36' nobody cared. When they dropped the limit to 30' a few more people cared. Now that they are targeting the majority of performance boats out there I guess even more will care now. **** the Marina.:mad:

[summerlove]

Originally posted by Havasu Cig
And it continues...
**** the Marina.:mad:
unfortunately they're the only show in town unless you launch at Windsor, which I hate....
what about thru-hull below the water line? that should make it woldn't you think?

[Essex502]

Originally posted by summerlove
unfortunately they're the only show in town unless you launch at Windsor, which I hate....
what about thru-hull below the water line? that should make it woldn't you think?
Our boat is thru-hull but below the water line at idle. With the 502 we "blew" 86 db-A at idle with a Radio Shack digital noise meter with me hanging off the back of the transom. I intend to pursue launching there after their "drop dead" date.
Let me REITERATE...the Arizona noise limit is 86 db-A at 50 FEET away from the boat. If those BOZOS say the law is anything else it is COMPLETE BULL$HIT.

[Havasu Cig]

I will never give the Marina another dime of my money. I will continue to use windsor unless there is a change at the Marina. I really believe the Manager, Jeff, does not want performance boats there.

[Toomstone]

Originally posted by dicudmore
If you have through transom exhaust, you're too loud :(
My 496HO measures 92 :rolleyes:
did yours measure 92 close up or at 50 feet? i have a deckboat and it has a similar swim step as you boat. when your behind it, it seems to just echo out from under there.

[Essex502]

Probably true about the Marina's manager but the reality is that Windsor cannot handle of the traffic if all of the "hot" boats quit launching at the Marina.

[carbonmarine]

He doesnt want this biz.He wants a nice quite simple place. Money from launching is not the main source of income its slips. The town is 50K plus and those in town are at a median age of 45+ and retiremenet age and more likely tohave less radical boats and use teh facilities to their max... gas, store, etc.....
BASICALLY: The marine doesnt need our Biz, They are not going after our or targting Biz or demographic, They could care less ....
I cant see why everyone is upset and acting like abused wives over this - the Mr Manager Guy has been a major dick and enemy to our kind for years ....

[Essex502]

Originally posted by Toomstone
did yours measure 92 close up or at 50 feet? i have a deckboat and it has a similar swim step as you boat. when your behind it, it seems to just echo out from under there.
I have measured a variety of boats recently and all thru transom exhaust that exits ABOVE the waterline will fail the new CA tests (1/1/2005) which are conducted at 1.5 meters from the exhaust's exit. The AZ standard and the CA standard until the end of the year is the 86 db @ 50'.
Yours will fail the new CA test and pass the AZ and existing CA test at idle only. However, both AZ and CA do not make the distinction of what throttle position the 50' test is taken at. SO...that means that if you are passing a boat on the water at any speed OTHER than idle and that boat is 50' or more away and that boat is LE and he has a noise meter on you and you are higher (likely) than 86 db you are illegal.

[Essex502]

What I still don't understand is how legally the Marina can apply a standard stricter than the AZ state law as I doubt they will have a noise meter at the gate when you pay to come in nor one that is 50' away (and must be away from reflecting noise sources such as structures...i.e. marina buildings) and apply the test correctly.

[Toomstone]

Originally posted by Essex502
I have measured a variety of boats recently and all thru transom exhaust that exits ABOVE the waterline will fail the new CA tests (1/1/2005) which are conducted at 1.5 meters from the exhaust's exit. The AZ standard and the CA standard until the end of the year is the 86 db @ 50'.
Yours will fail the new CA test and pass the AZ and existing CA test at idle only. However, both AZ and CA do not make the distinction of what throttle position the 50' test is taken at. SO...that means that if you are passing a boat on the water at any speed OTHER than idle and that boat is 50' or more away and that boat is LE and he has a noise meter on you and you are higher (likely) than 86 db you are illegal.
wow.... that has got to be the stupidest thing ive ever heard. no one is ever 5 feet from exhaust when its started. so why the hell are they testing it from there?

[91nordic29]

I GUESS THE MARINA CAN USE THE OLD "RIGHT TO REFUSE SERVICE" (oops) line.
i wonder where the marina's "property line" starts? at the waters edge? end of the docks? does anyone know?

[Essex502]

Originally posted by Toomstone
wow.... that has got to be the stupidest thing ive ever heard. no one is ever 5 feet from exhaust when its started. so why the hell are they testing it from there?
The test is much simpler for LE to perform. It is well documented and can be done by tying up to the boat to be tested or from the dock. It is consistent where the J1970 and J34 tests are more difficult to administer and hence not administered often.

[TIBURON]

Originally posted by Havasu_Dreamin
They can prevent you from launching there, although it is a gray area since they do not own the land, they lease it from the BLM or City. But they can deny you access. I don't necessarily know if it truly is legal but a business does have a right to refuse service. Bottom line, if you're over 86 db then you're over the limit set by the law to begin with.
And as faras the marina going broke, won't happen. The parking lot is full every weekend. They can turn away 50 boats on the weekend and still make money.
It was actually the COPs that told me to take my boat of the lake. So where can I go if I cant go to Havasu???? I wonder if I put those rubber flaps on my tail pipes, will it quiet it down at idle? :confused:

[Essex502]

Originally posted by TIBURON
It was actually the COPs that told me to take my boat of the lake. So where can I go if I cant go to Havasu???? I wonder if I put those rubber flaps on my tail pipes, will it quiet it down at idle? :confused:
Which cops? CA or AZ? I doubt the rubber flaps will help at all. Rex Marine's new silencers are supposed to put you at or under the legal limit under the new CA laws. See thread under Gear Head section.

[TIBURON]

Originally posted by Essex502
Which cops? CA or AZ? I doubt the rubber flaps will help at all. Rex Marine's new silencers are supposed to put you at or under the legal limit under the new CA laws. See thread under Gear Head section.
It was Havasu PD. I'll check out REX, I will be out there this weekend with some out of town family and don't need the POOlice pulling up on me and giving me shiiit...
Thanks..

[Toomstone]

Originally posted by Essex502
The test is much simpler for LE to perform. It is well documented and can be done by tying up to the boat to be tested or from the dock. It is consistent where the J1970 and J34 tests are more difficult to administer and hence not administered often.
so this law really just makes it easier for them to write tickets for illegal exhaust. where before the test was more lengthy and they just didnt want to deal with it?:yuk:

[Sweet Addiction]

I have been reading this thread and I am really bumbed out now. I was planning on making a trip from Texas to Arizona or Cali next summer so I could see some of the lakes out there that are so popular. I have not measured the DBs on my boat but it gets loud. HUMPH, :mad: Well I am frustrated now. Oh well I will find something else to do.

[copperrat20]

Originally posted by Drivn'm Crazy
I have been reading this thread and I am really bumbed out now. I was planning on making a trip from Texas to Arizona or Cali next summer so I could see some of the lakes out there that are so popular. I have not measured the DBs on my boat but it gets loud. HUMPH, :mad: Well I am frustrated now. Oh well I will find something else to do.
Aw, just come on out. You won't have any problems. Just launch fairly early in the morning and go in later at night. The cops aren't that bad on noise laws out here.

[Essex502]

Originally posted by Toomstone
so this law really just makes it easier for them to write tickets for illegal exhaust. where before the test was more lengthy and they just didnt want to deal with it?:yuk:
Not so much lengthy but at a set distance (50 feet) which is harder to administer accurately. New test is quick. Boom-done-here's you ticket.:(

[Essex502]

Originally posted by titties and beer
they need a sign IF YOU DON'T /CAN'T LAUNCH HERE DON'T BUY FUEL/FOOD/BEER/ICE HERE;) but fill free to drive through real slow :D
it would be fun to organize a few hundred loud boats to parade into the marina and then back out. Flippin' the bird of course to the Marina staff!

[Toomstone]

Originally posted by Essex502
it would be fun to organize a few hundred loud boats to parade into the marina and then back out. Flippin' the bird of course to the Marina staff!
that would be pretty neat to set up a weekend and do that. roll thru by the gas docks, near the ramp, rev the engine and leave. i bet you even 30 boats would do the job if you could get that many to do it. but the more boats the better:D

[91nordic29]

Originally posted by 91nordic29
I GUESS THE MARINA CAN USE THE OLD "RIGHT TO REFUSE SERVICE" (oops) line.
i wonder where the marina's "property line" starts? at the waters edge? end of the docks? does anyone know?
thats why i was asking this. where do they lose their "authority" (for lack of a better word) over folks?

[Essex502]

I wouldn't be a proponent of revving the motor as that might attract attention from the LEO's. As most of our boats are over the legal limit or right on the borderline it prolly wouldn't be a great idea.
What'll it be....any takers for a protest parade?

[Essex502]

Originally posted by 91nordic29
thats why i was asking this. where do they lose their "authority" (for lack of a better word) over folks?
I understood the waterline is their limit.

[Toomstone]

Originally posted by Essex502
I wouldn't be a proponent of revving the motor as that might attract attention from the LEO's. As most of our boats are over the legal limit or right on the borderline it prolly wouldn't be a great idea.
What'll it be....any takers for a protest parade?
thats true. wouldnt want a few hundred tickets being handed out at once:mad:. hey sounds like a great idea. everyone meet in the channel, bay, or nautical and parade right through there.

[Mandelon]

Well that just blows. :yuk:

[Ducatista]

Originally posted by carbonmarine
He doesnt want this biz.He wants a nice quite simple place. Money from launching is not the main source of income its slips. The town is 50K plus and those in town are at a median age of 45+ and retiremenet age and more likely tohave less radical boats and use teh facilities to their max... gas, store, etc.....
BASICALLY: The marine doesnt need our Biz, They are not going after our or targting Biz or demographic, They could care less ....
I cant see why everyone is upset and acting like abused wives over this - the Mr Manager Guy has been a major dick and enemy to our kind for years ....
You are 100% correct here, they don't need us or want us. This is just the start too. It will spread to other ramps as far as the noise standards go, before we know it. Hell, I'll probably need to use my silent choice at the private ramp I use pretty soon, so we don't scare the ducks.

[TIBURON]

it would be fun to organize a few hundred loud boats to parade into the marina and then back out. Flippin' the bird of course to the Marina staff!
:D Maan wouldnt that make a statment though to all of the folks making up all these rules/laws.... I would be willing to go on a parade through the marina, its not like I am not at risk to get a ticket everytime I put my boat in the water. There is no way they would be able to cite everyone, only one or two of us would have to bite the bullet, but I am willing to take that risk for the cause :D

[That Guy]

In following this thread everyone has been posting mainly about launching. Does anyone know the Marina's stance on buying gas, stopping at their market, renting a slip??? I am just wondering if they are planning on not letting anyone use the facilities if their boat is too loud. That would seem to have some impact on their business? Anyone know?????

[BoatFloating]

The Marina issue is nothing new and it shouldn't surprise anybody. That place sucks and I haven't bought or used there services for over 2 years. I've seen no less than 10 threads talking about do this or doing that but it just fades away until someone else gets hosed by them and it starts all over again. The bottom line is, it's a private business and the have the right to refuse service for any reason the choose to. I wouldn't be concerned about launching, I'd be more concerned when the LE's start enforcing the law that been in effect since 1974 but recently made changes to the testing methods. I like everyone else loves the sound of a nice running big block but the law is the law and now you have to deal with it. I said you because I just bought a new boat with outboards :D The LE's were already ticketing people for noise in Thompson's Bay so you better be careful and don't do like all the other Yahoo's do and rev your motor when you go under the bridge unless you want to guarantee yourself a ticket.

[91nordic29]

what is the penalty/fine for being too loud (arizona)?

[Essex502]

You all might see some attention brought to this issue in the next few days from the media...I can't say what just yet but I'll keep you all posted.

[Essex502]

In following this thread everyone has been posting mainly about launching. Does anyone know the Marina's stance on buying gas, stopping at their market, renting a slip??? I am just wondering if they are planning on not letting anyone use the facilities if their boat is too loud. That would seem to have some impact on their business? Anyone know?????
I've seen VERY loud boats pull up and pump gas from the Marina's pumps. But when I've tried to get a slip, even midweek, the first thing the guy at the desk asks is "What kind of boat and how big". When I tell him a 21' boat a quick "No slips available" is the answer. I haven't been able to get a slip there in two years.

[Mandelon]

I wonder if there is any connection to the Spaise's ***boat Magazine editorial?? He pretty much lambasted the Marina a month or two ago for their bad attitude.

[That Guy]

I've seen VERY loud boats pull up and pump gas from the Marina's pumps. But when I've tried to get a slip, even midweek, the first thing the guy at the desk asks is "What kind of boat and how big". When I tell him a 21' boat a quick "No slips available" is the answer. I haven't been able to get a slip there in two years.
3 weeks ago, we rented a slip over the weekend without any hassles right across from the marina store. We have a 25' Advantage with thru transom exhaust running a 496 HO and no one ever said a thing. Of course, it probably didn't hurt that I sent my hot wife in a very tiny bikini to do all the paperwork. :smilespi: Maybe I can rent her out for paperwork negotations at the marina. :D Oops, better ask her first... :devil:

[Essex_Sterling]

Another interesting tidbit of information, remember the article in Today's Havasu News Hearld a few weeks ago about the mgaic deckboat circling off of Windsor? Well, one the LHCPD Officers in the boat trying to stop has what appears to be the same last name as the marina manager. And I reprint without the approval or consent of the Today's News Herald ....Lake Havasu City boat police were first to arrive at the scene about 3:45 p.m. Officers Greg Irvine and Jeff Bekkedahl noticed two occupants waving and screaming at them from a small boat. The officers then observed Leaver struggling to hang on to the rear of the boat with his right hand. Isn't that the same last name of the marina manager?

[Essex502]

Another interesting tidbit of information, remember the article in Today's Havasu News Hearld a few weeks ago about the mgaic deckboat circling off of Windsor? Well, one the LHCPD Officers in the boat trying to stop has what appears to be the same last name as the marina manager. And I reprint without the approval or consent of the Today's News Herald ....Lake Havasu City boat police were first to arrive at the scene about 3:45 p.m. Officers Greg Irvine and Jeff Bekkedahl noticed two occupants waving and screaming at them from a small boat. The officers then observed Leaver struggling to hang on to the rear of the boat with his right hand. Isn't that the same last name of the marina manager?
Are you implying the the manager might feel he has a little more power to do what he wants 'cause his bro' is a cop?

[Essex502]

I wonder if there is any connection to the Spaise's ***boat Magazine editorial?? He pretty much lambasted the Marina a month or two ago for their bad attitude.
If any media has anything it'll be in the next coupla' days...keep your eyes out.

[Essex_Sterling]

Are you implying the the manager might feel he has a little more power to do what he wants 'cause his bro' is a cop?
I don't know if they are related or not. I do think I remember someone saying that the marina managerslast name is Bekkedahl in one of the real early threads on this issue.
Don't know if he feels he has more power or not, assuming they are related, but it certainly is an interesting situation especially if LHCPD ever gets called out to the marina due to the manager pissing off the wrong person or just verbally abusing someone in a manner that has been previsouly described. LHC may be growing but it is still very much a good ol' boys culture.

[91nordic29]

Another interesting tidbit of information, remember the article in Today's Havasu News Hearld a few weeks ago about the mgaic deckboat circling off of Windsor? Well, one the LHCPD Officers in the boat trying to stop has what appears to be the same last name as the marina manager. And I reprint without the approval or consent of the Today's News Herald ....Lake Havasu City boat police were first to arrive at the scene about 3:45 p.m. Officers Greg Irvine and Jeff Bekkedahl noticed two occupants waving and screaming at them from a small boat. The officers then observed Leaver struggling to hang on to the rear of the boat with his right hand. Isn't that the same last name of the marina manager?
i think that was his name. first AND last :jawdrop:

[SJ Valley Dave]

Never been to Havasu or Parker. we were thinking about bringing a v-drive flattie down. It's got the shorty Bassett's w/ a little bit of water and the old style Bassett inserts. 11:1 motor, is it going to be a hassle re: noise @ either location???If so we might just shine it and stay here in central Cal. Thanks for any answers

[Ducatista]

Never been to Havasu or Parker. we were thinking about bringing a v-drive flattie down. It's got the shorty Bassett's w/ a little bit of water and the old style Bassett inserts. 11:1 motor, is it going to be a hassle re: noise @ either location???If so we might just shine it and stay here in central Cal. Thanks for any answers
Bring it down, you'll be fine, just stay away from the Marina, and keep alert for the man with regards to noise. It's not as bad as it may seem by reading the threads. Well not yet anyways! Noise reduction has got it's feet wet you might say, not far off.

[Essex502]

LHC may be growing but it is still very much a good ol' boys culture.
Good ol' boy network is putting it mildly!

[BoatFloating]

Another interesting tidbit of information, remember the article in Today's Havasu News Hearld a few weeks ago about the mgaic deckboat circling off of Windsor? Well, one the LHCPD Officers in the boat trying to stop has what appears to be the same last name as the marina manager. And I reprint without the approval or consent of the Today's News Herald ....Lake Havasu City boat police were first to arrive at the scene about 3:45 p.m. Officers Greg Irvine and Jeff Bekkedahl noticed two occupants waving and screaming at them from a small boat. The officers then observed Leaver struggling to hang on to the rear of the boat with his right hand. Isn't that the same last name of the marina manager?
FYI, The above mentioned officer is the son of the Marina manager. :idea: :idea:

[don johnson]

Launch at Windsor or Crazy Horse and you should be fine.

[phebus]

Launch at Windsor or Crazy Horse and you should be fine.
Crazy Horse maybe, but I talked to the Sherriff's boat yesterday about the noise issue at the Marina, and they said they were planning on setting up at Windsor to monitor for noise levels and if you were too loud you would not be allowed to launch there either. It sounds like L.E. intends on enforcing this.

[BoatFloating]

Launch at Windsor or Crazy Horse and you should be fine.
You can't launch at Crazy Horse anymore unless you stay there.....

[cigarette1]

Once they drive all the Hot Boaters out .... they can look for property values to drop :mad:

[copperrat20]

Yeah, but do you guys really think that they are going to be monitoring at 6 in the morning when most of us like to launch? I have yet to see the rangers out that early. And if you come in late, the rangers normally are gone by 5 or 6.

[roostwear]

Crazy Horse maybe, but I talked to the Sherriff's boat yesterday about the noise issue at the Marina, and they said they were planning on setting up at Windsor to monitor for noise levels and if you were too loud you would not be allowed to launch there either. It sounds like L.E. intends on enforcing this.
According to the testing procedure, how would they know if you're too loud unless you launch?

[phebus]

Yeah, but do you guys really think that they are going to be monitoring at 6 in the morning when most of us like to launch? I have yet to see the rangers out that early. And if you come in late, the rangers normally are gone by 5 or 6.
6 a.m. ?????????? :pigfly:

[copperrat20]

If I go with my family we are out on the lake by 6:15 but it I go with friends, it's more like 10am. I know your right! :burningm:

[Essex502]

According to the testing procedure, how would they know if you're too loud unless you launch?
Not only that they must test you from 50' away...how can they determine which boat is making the most noise in a crowded launch site such as Windsor? This smacks of enforcement for the sake of intimidation.

[Mandelon]

Are they trying to rid the lake of the ***boat influence then? Does the City want this or is this just an LE thing?
Seems like a greater conspiracy to get rid of rowdy crowds and noisy boats, but who knows? Somebody must have made a decision.
I wonder what the Chamber of Commerce is gonna do?
Man---->looking for black helicopters<-------delon.........

[roostwear]

Can Havasu do without ***boaters? Probably. There a big town now... sales tax revenue is up because so many people have moved there, and since so many have moved there, the property tax base is greater. Many companies have moved there, so business license fees feed the coffers also. How many boaters will be selling any time soon? Not many I suspect. Unfortunately, it looks like ***boaters may have created their own monster in Havasu.

[mbrown2]

Dam, I feel for the noise laws, but I think my whacka is going up in value as this thread progresses.. :sqsmile: :cool: :smilespi:

[Havasu Cig]

Can Havasu do without ***boaters? Probably. There a big town now... sales tax revenue is up because so many people have moved there, and since so many have moved there, the property tax base is greater. Many companies have moved there, so business license fees feed the coffers also. How many boaters will be selling any time soon? Not many I suspect. Unfortunately, it looks like ***boaters may have created their own monster in Havasu.
Havasu can not survive as it is today without the performance boats. The people in their Bayliners are not going to spend the money or invest money in the town like the people with perfomance boats do because most of them don't have it. How many people do you know with a Bayliner that owns property or a residence in the town? Proably not many.
Look where Havasu was just 5 years ago. The influx of primarily California money in the recent past due to the housing boom here has helped to grow LHC. If you drive out the people that are bringing in the money alot of the service industry businesses in LHC will be impacted.
Restaurants, bars, boating related service industries (including boat builders), I would bet even a large business such as Home Depot would be hurt if the money stops coming into the town. Just my opinion from going to Havasu for many years, and owning a house out there for several years. My.02

[phebus]

Havasu can not survive as it is today without the performance boats. The people in their Bayliners are not going to spend the money or invest money in the town like the people with perfomance boats do because most of them don't have it. How many people do you know with a Bayliner that owns property or a residence in the town? Proably not many.
Look where Havasu was just 5 years ago. The influx of primarily California money in the recent past due to the housing boom here has helped to grow LHC. If you drive out the people that are bringing in the money alot of the service industry businesses in LHC will be impacted.
Restaurants, bars, boating related service industries (including boat builders), I would bet even a large business such as Home Depot would be hurt if the money stops coming into the town. Just my opinion from going to Havasu for many years, and owning a house out there for several years. My.02
As you point out, the performance boater has a large investnent in Havasu. It is for that very reason they will have to do what it takes to comply with the new noise laws. The people that will make out are the ones that can provide a quality product to the market that will allow them to comply.

[Essex502]

I guess the real issue is how fast the performance boaters will be forced to buy expensive mufflers or sliencers. We will not give up our boating passion just because of the noise laws. The boats can be compliant IF the manufacturers want them to be.
The sad part is the arbitrariness (is that a word?) of the enforcement action both by local LEO's and the complete assinine actions of the Lake Havasu Marina.
I will be ordering the next boat with mufflers as the noise laws are here to stay and every state has them to some level of restriction and enforcement. There's no getting around them.
Come January 1, 2005 those of you in California might see the enforcement of the noise laws escalate especially around marinas.

[TIBURON]

I think the city is going to get rich not suffer, with all the tickets there going to be handing out. We really have no choice cuz from what it looks like this is going to be enforced at all the big lakes we enjoy, Havasu being my # 1.
It sure pisses me off though, cuz I know I'll most likely get a ticket before I throw a set of mufflers on, therefore increasing the out of pocket for the mufflers, and not to mention contributing to LHC revenues.
So when we all finally comply with the noise laws, and they arent bring in all the x-tra money, what crappy law will they come up with next???? :yuk:

[Essex502]

Mentioning big lakes....the NPS is starting to issue noise citations for Lake Mead. Won't be long before Lake Mohave gets the same treatment.

[AzDon]

Havasu can not survive as it is today without the performance boats. The people in their Bayliners are not going to spend the money or invest money in the town like the people with perfomance boats do because most of them don't have it. How many people do you know with a Bayliner that owns property or a residence in the town? Proably not many.
Look where Havasu was just 5 years ago. The influx of primarily California money in the recent past due to the housing boom here has helped to grow LHC. If you drive out the people that are bringing in the money alot of the service industry businesses in LHC will be impacted.
Restaurants, bars, boating related service industries (including boat builders), I would bet even a large business such as Home Depot would be hurt if the money stops coming into the town. Just my opinion from going to Havasu for many years, and owning a house out there for several years. My.02
Next time you are on the lake, look up towards town and try to count all the houses..... there are over 30,000! Lake havasu has a full-time resident population of 50,000, about half of which are retirees who brought all their money to town with them. Do you really believe that local roofing contractors care about how obnoxious visitors are treated at the marina? Do you really believe that the managers of our 5 supermarkets worry about the loss of some tourist dollars? I've actually heard that Safeway worries more about locals going elsewhere out of disgust with the weekend "visitor" crowd!
The number 1 industry in town is servicing and supplying the residents, about 65% retired, or financially independent. Number 2 industry is Real Estate/construction, which services folks moving up, or crossing over from being tourists. Yes, people visit here before committing to property purchases just as they do in Apple Valley, Kingman, or (fill in the blank). We also have a small, but growing manufacturing base. Boat manufacturers relocate here to have the lake nearby, but mostly to escape California's extensive environmental regs. Sure, they'd love to have you come here to look and buy, but that's not stopping them from setting up dealers elsewhere and showing boats at Cal boat shows.
People that delude themselves that Lake Havasu would cease to exist without a few summer tourist dollars are completely out of touch with reality. The argument that every dollar in Havasu originates from a tourist transaction completely ignores and denies the economic diversity that you'd find in ANY group of 50,000 people.
Will this town miss the revenue if the big, loud boats stop coming to town? If the 10,000 folks that are most dependent on tourist dollars even notice the small drop in revenue, they will at least have to admit that the place is a lot more peaceful and the waterfront can actually be visited by locals on weekends without an hour-long wait for launching or raunchy, sodom-and-gomorrah behavior in the channel.
This place will survive without tourist dollars just like Kingman,Apple valley,Needles, etc. Businesses are here to serve the 50,000 residents and will abandon us ONLY if the money isn't good....GET IT?

[Toomstone]

does anyone actually know if there is any group or any people in the havasu area complaining about noise???

[Ducatista]

Dam, I feel for the noise laws, but I think my whacka is going up in value as this thread progresses.. :sqsmile: :cool: :smilespi:
Funny, soooo true. I can picture the channel 3 years from now....all egg beater's lined up. I suppose I could adapt to a 100mph turn key Whacka. :)

[AzDon]

So when we all finally comply with the noise laws, and they arent bring in all the x-tra money, what crappy law will they come up with next???? :yuk:
There is an article in today's paper quoting the Mohave Co. sherriff dept that OUI arrests are at a record high this year and that they are convinced that ALL boating accidents are the result of alcohol involvement (impairment doesn't seem to be the standard anymore)
In last weeks accident, a guy was killed and 2 family members seriously injured when his UNLIT boat was run over (at 9pm at night) by someone that had some amount of alcohol.
This is the new hot-button issue with LE around here and I believe a noisy boat is probably an invitation to an interview and (minimally) a parting gift(a citation)
If the folks that write letters to the paper ever get organized, I think you could eventually see channel enforcement doubled and some modesy ordinances passed in addition to "disturbing the peace" citations. It's a little-known fact that LHC's "disturbing the peace" law applies 24 hours a day....It only requires a resident to complain....and with more condos going in along the channel....

[TIBURON]

UNLIT boat, thats why he was run over.. I admit my (night) eye sight sucks thats why I rarely go out at night. I get way to nervous out there.

[Essex502]

Well AzDon, I don't know if you plow the lake on a pontoon or what but look around at the performance boats such as mine. We are a land owner in LHC - one house built and another just breaking ground - and many of our friends are also part time residents and full time land owners in the city. We pay for services and shop at the stores and are fueling the construction market. If the part time residents decided to go elsewhere you would see a definite hit on all business in the LHC area. Construction, stores (furniture for those newly built houses), etc. What about the Refuge? Think that's all local money or retirees? Not on you life, amigo. I intend to build more houses and someday retire there but I'll tell you what it won't be driving egg beaters, Baylines or Tri-toons around. It'll be a performance boat. Now noise laws are here to stay and I'm not complaining at all about the law but the arbitrary nature of the Lake Havasu Marina enforcing a noise limit that is above and beyond the law. They are placing themselves above the law and deciding who may use the facilities with the outright lie to my face that there is a "new law in Arizona". This was complete Bull$hit. I know and others know it. The Marina has been mistreating there customers for years and this is another manifestation of the mistreatment.
Oh..BTW...Lake Havasu City has NOT OFFICIALLY made it to 50K residents. Check your facts.

[Toomstone]

Next time you are on the lake, look up towards town and try to count all the houses..... there are over 30,000! Lake havasu has a full-time resident population of 50,000, about half of which are retirees who brought all their money to town with them. Do you really believe that local roofing contractors care about how obnoxious visitors are treated at the marina? Do you really believe that the managers of our 5 supermarkets worry about the loss of some tourist dollars? I've actually heard that Safeway worries more about locals going elsewhere out of disgust with the weekend "visitor" crowd!
The number 1 industry in town is servicing and supplying the residents, about 65% retired, or financially independent. Number 2 industry is Real Estate/construction, which services folks moving up, or crossing over from being tourists. Yes, people visit here before committing to property purchases just as they do in Apple Valley, Kingman, or (fill in the blank). We also have a small, but growing manufacturing base. Boat manufacturers relocate here to have the lake nearby, but mostly to escape California's extensive environmental regs. Sure, they'd love to have you come here to look and buy, but that's not stopping them from setting up dealers elsewhere and showing boats at Cal boat shows.
People that delude themselves that Lake Havasu would cease to exist without a few summer tourist dollars are completely out of touch with reality. The argument that every dollar in Havasu originates from a tourist transaction completely ignores and denies the economic diversity that you'd find in ANY group of 50,000 people.
Will this town miss the revenue if the big, loud boats stop coming to town? If the 10,000 folks that are most dependent on tourist dollars even notice the small drop in revenue, they will at least have to admit that the place is a lot more peaceful and the waterfront can actually be visited by locals on weekends without an hour-long wait for launching or raunchy, sodom-and-gomorrah behavior in the channel.
This place will survive without tourist dollars just like Kingman,Apple valley,Needles, etc. Businesses are here to serve the 50,000 residents and will abandon us ONLY if the money isn't good....GET IT?
does anyone else agree with me when i say there is probably a large part of the havasu full time community with performance boats???

[TIBURON]

does anyone else agree with me when i say there is probably a large part of the havasu full time community with performance boats???
Uh-Huh.....

[Havasu Cig]

AzDon,
You can defend the city all you want but facts are facts. California residents that visit the lake and own homes out there are a big part of the economy. I believe I just read recently that about 75% of home sales in havasu this past year were to Califonia residents. That fact alone does not support your statements that tourism or part time residents do not fuel the economy there.
That said, I could care less. own a home there but have not been using it due to the B.S. going on lately. I have been happy boating offshore here in So.Cal. and will probably buy a pontoon boat for the lake.
BTW: You mentioned the new condo's in the Channel. Who do you think are buying them?

[mbrown2]

BTW: You mentioned the new condo's in the Channel. Who do you think are buying them?
I put my money on majority will be sold to part time residents of places other then Lake Havasu City....

[throwerb]

I can"t believe we are still talking about this, SCREW that bastard at the marina, I'd rather drive an extra half hour that give him a cent of my money! :burningm:

[AzDon]

Like any locality, the laws that are passed here will be in response to VOTERS wishes and I will abide by those laws or be cited. Law enforcement will not discriminate between local and visitor. Maybe I'll hafta move the exhaust tips below the waterline on my boat, but I'm guessing that my kinda boat isn't even on their radar, even on Wednesday morning when I'm the only one out!
The surest way to ensure that the place remains loud, drunk, overcrowded, and circus-like is for everybody who likes this kind of atmosphere to move here full-time, register to vote here, and form a political action association to make your feelings and numbers known. There may ALREADY BE significant numbers here full time that like this stuff, but no organization yet!
Maybe that's because once a person resides here, this becomes THEIR community and they decide that what used to look like fun now looks like abuse of the town's hospitality. Most full time residents that I talk to feel "under siege" on the weekends, as if the lake is completely inaccesible to them. Most people eventually grow up and realize that they don't want their Spicoli-like party friend from high school living next door to them. Almost all civilized humans don't eat in the same room where they s*it and would prefer others not do so either. If you lived here, how would the raucous activities at the waterfront make you feel?

[C-2]

Law enforcement will not discriminate between local and visitor.
uhhhhh
You sure about that? The good ole' boys network is very much alive in every city across the nation; especially in Havasu.
Not adding my statement to beat up on you, just found the comment amusing. ;)

[C-2]

And BTW,
There is an economic study conducted by ASU or some similar school out there that identifies the primary income source of Havasu - tourism. I'll see if I can find it tonight.

[Essex502]

Like any locality, the laws that are passed here will be in response to VOTERS wishes and I will abide by those laws or be cited. Law enforcement will not discriminate between local and visitor. Maybe I'll hafta move the exhaust tips below the waterline on my boat, but I'm guessing that my kinda boat isn't even on their radar, even on Wednesday morning when I'm the only one out!
The surest way to ensure that the place remains loud, drunk, overcrowded, and circus-like is for everybody who likes this kind of atmosphere to move here full-time, register to vote here, and form a political action association to make your feelings and numbers known. There may ALREADY BE significant numbers here full time that like this stuff, but no organization yet!
Maybe that's because once a person resides here, this becomes THEIR community and they decide that this is not the kind of atmosphere that evokes civic pride!
Aren't you listening...there is NO FOCKING LAW...it's simply the Marina managment's decision - and arbitrary at that - as to which boats launch or not. This has nothing to do about civic pride. A bone stock performance boat with stock Mercruiser power was told last weekend to not come back to the Marina because he is "perceived" to be too loud. No test, no measurement.

[Essex502]

I can"t believe we are still talking about this, SCREW that bastard at the marina, I'd rather drive an extra half hour that give him a cent of my money! :burningm:
Where do you launch that's a half hour away? From the south end of town it takes us 15-20 minutes just to get to McCulloch Blvd.

[Essex502]

Here's some facts:
"Lake Havasu City was incorporated in 1978. It is a planned community, designed to reflect a balanced economy based on 40% light industry, 40% resort and recreation, and 20% commercial services.
Lake Havasu City's population has grown to more than 48,000 residents with a winter population exceeding 68,000. It has over 1,000 business establishments. It has over 27 hotels/motels/condos accounting for over 1,630 room accommodations and 118 restaurants and eateries. The Lake Havasu Tourism Bureau estimates that 1.5 million people visit Lake Havasu City each year.
Do you think that those 1.5 million people come predominantly in the Winter...I think NOT.

[AzDon]

Do you think that those 1.5 million people come predominantly in the Winter...I think NOT.
Winter visitors DO come here in larger numbers than summer visitors, but are not directly comparable for several reasons:
Although they DO come here to live for 3 or 4 months of the year AND pay above-market rent to get short-term furnished places close-in, they generally mine the town for every cheapskate deal they can find and are considered stingy. People also complain about their driving (most snowbirds are elderly) but give them high marks as gracious guests. They may occasionally buy a car here, but generally are not big-ticket spenders unless they are reverse snowbirds (based here).
Summer visitors are generally high-income working Californians who arrive in large numbers on weekends. They are hit-n-run tourists in that, they are in a hurry to party hard for a few short days before returning home for work. A lot of these folks that spend some mad cash here in a short period of time expect a sodom-and- gomorrah experience in return and believe that it is Lake Havasu's obligation to allow it. Most of these folks would demand National Gaurd intervention if this kind of behavior broke out in THEIR neighborhood, but because they spend some money here, they have a right to expect it here?? WRONG!! Most locals would agree that they'd rather see LE visitor guys stay home rather than think they can come here and grope and beat-up teenage girls. Most of us would prefer our visitors stay safely at home rather than drunkenly running their boats into each other in the dark. I'm not saying that we don't or won't welcome visitors. I'm just saying that nobody here appreciates the rockstar/rude/entitled attitude folks. Those are the ones most locals agree should stay home. We like CIVILIZED tourists!

[throwerb]

Where do you launch that's a half hour away? From the south end of town it takes us 15-20 minutes just to get to McCulloch Blvd.
First of all I'm on your side. Second no one said that I wouldn't rather launch at Havasu Marina if it was under different managment, Third if you have a home here you must know of other places to launch, if not try this.
www.havasumagazine.com/CampGrounds.htm

[Havasu Cig]

Winter visitors DO come here in larger numbers than summer visitors, but are not directly comparable for several reasons:
Although they DO come here to live for 3 or 4 months of the year AND pay above-market rent to get short-term furnished places close-in, they generally mine the town for every cheapskate deal they can find and are considered stingy. People also complain about their driving (most snowbirds are elderly) but give them high marks as gracious guests. They may occasionally buy a car here, but generally are not big-ticket spenders unless they are reverse snowbirds (based here).
Summer visitors are generally high-income working Californians who arrive in large numbers on weekends. They are hit-n-run tourists in that, they are in a hurry to party hard for a few short days before returning home for work. A lot of these folks spend some mad cash here in a short period of time and expect a sodom-and- gomorrah experience in return and believe that it is Lake Havasu's obligation to allow it. Most of these folks would demand National Gaurd intervention if this kind of behavior broke out in THEIR neighborhood, but because they spend some money here, they have a right to expect it here?? WRONG!! Most locals would agree that they'd rather see LE visitor guys stay home rather than think they can come here and grope and beat-up teenage girls. Most of us would prefer our visitors stay safely at home rather than drunkenly running their boats into each other in the dark. I'm not saying that we don't or won't welcome visitors. I'm just saying that nobody here appreciates the rockstar/rude/entitled attitude folks. Those are the ones most locals agree should stay home. We like CIVILIZED tourists!
And how does this relate to discrimination at the Marina???

[Essex502]

First of all I'm on your side. Second no one said that I wouldn't rather launch at Havasu Marina if it was under different managment, Third if you have a home here you must know of other places to launch, if not try this.
www.havasumagazine.com/CampGrounds.htm
I didn't mean to imply we weren't in agreement but I am curious to where you drive a half an hour to launch?

[Essex502]

Winter visitors DO come here in larger numbers than summer visitors, but are not directly comparable for several reasons:
Although they DO come here to live for 3 or 4 months of the year AND pay above-market rent to get short-term furnished places close-in, they generally mine the town for every cheapskate deal they can find and are considered stingy. People also complain about their driving (most snowbirds are elderly) but give them high marks as gracious guests. They may occasionally buy a car here, but generally are not big-ticket spenders unless they are reverse snowbirds (based here).
Summer visitors are generally high-income working Californians who arrive in large numbers on weekends. They are hit-n-run tourists in that, they are in a hurry to party hard for a few short days before returning home for work. A lot of these folks spend some mad cash here in a short period of time and expect a sodom-and- gomorrah experience in return and believe that it is Lake Havasu's obligation to allow it. Most of these folks would demand National Gaurd intervention if this kind of behavior broke out in THEIR neighborhood, but because they spend some money here, they have a right to expect it here?? WRONG!! Most locals would agree that they'd rather see LE visitor guys stay home rather than think they can come here and grope and beat-up teenage girls. Most of us would prefer our visitors stay safely at home rather than drunkenly running their boats into each other in the dark. I'm not saying that we don't or won't welcome visitors. I'm just saying that nobody here appreciates the rockstar/rude/entitled attitude folks. Those are the ones most locals agree should stay home. We like CIVILIZED tourists!
You're so full of $hit with that diatribe...I like many, many others are Californians who have property in LHC - some like me multiple properties - and when we come to town we spend significant sums of money. We support the local economy better than you may think - shopping in the local stores for our furniture and household goods. Having our boat serviced at the local shops as well. Using the local builders and landscapers. Eating in the local restaurants.
How many of those "above average" rentals that the snowbirds use are actually owned by Californians who use them for the summer? Quite a few. The majority of those summer visitors are not the rockin' party crew you think the the myriad folks you don't notice that support that little desert widespot.

[Keith E. Sayre]

Essex 502--I agree.
I would estimate that the average California "hot boat" family or group spends $500 to $750 per day in Havasu. Anyone who doubts this, needs
to look around. The number could be higher! This doesn't even count
the purchase of their boats, equipment, storage units, boat repairs and
maintenance and even more if they buy a home here.
If you close our lake or allow someone to drive "hot boat" or "high performance" boaters away, our city will be bankrupt and dusty by the
end of dinner tonight. Not tommorrow or next week--today.
I also have to say that as a local full time resident of Lake Havasu, I too
don't like the idiots that show up here 3 or 4 holiday weekends a year, but
to say that a good portion of our residents don't like the noise etc here is
absolutely incorrect. The old folks are deaf so they can't hear the boats
anyway. The younger ones are all at the lake having fun. This is a river
town, not a resort-golf town for the elderly. My neighbors are almost all
retired, everyone of them has a hot rod a harley and a loud boat. Other
than the "non boat owner" idiots of the 4 big weekends every year, we ALL
welcome the "California-Hot Boater" and hope that you will continue coming
here.
As for the marina thing, I always thought that their job over there was to
rent slips, pump gas and launch boats. I guess they're also in charge of
law enforcement too? I suppose any private business can turn down money
and business for whatever reason but when you have a monopoly set up
with a contract, wouldn't the marina be in violation of their contract unless
the contract specifically included a provision about denying access for loud
boats? Shouldn't the city then be able to allow for the construction of another marina close by. After all, let's give the marina what they want,
a whole bunch of pontoon boats and cobwebs and moss. All the cool boats (with owners that spend lots of money and know how to have a bit of fun at the river) can go to the new marina.
Keith Sayre

[Essex502]

Essex 502--I agree.
I would estimate that the average California "hot boat" family or group spends $500 to $750 per day in Havasu. Anyone who doubts this, needs
to look around. The number could be higher! This doesn't even count
the purchase of their boats, equipment, storage units, boat repairs and
maintenance and even more if they buy a home here.
If you close our lake or allow someone to drive "hot boat" or "high performance" boaters away, our city will be bankrupt and dusty by the
end of dinner tonight. Not tommorrow or next week--today.
I also have to say that as a local full time resident of Lake Havasu, I too
don't like the idiots that show up here 3 or 4 holiday weekends a year, but
to say that a good portion of our residents don't like the noise etc here is
absolutely incorrect. The old folks are deaf so they can't hear the boats
anyway. The younger ones are all at the lake having fun. This is a river
town, not a resort-golf town for the elderly. My neighbors are almost all
retired, everyone of them has a hot rod a harley and a loud boat. Other
than the "non boat owner" idiots of the 4 big weekends every year, we ALL
welcome the "California-Hot Boater" and hope that you will continue coming
here.
As for the marina thing, I always thought that their job over there was to
rent slips, pump gas and launch boats. I guess they're also in charge of
law enforcement too? I suppose any private business can turn down money
and business for whatever reason but when you have a monopoly set up
with a contract, wouldn't the marina be in violation of their contract unless
the contract specifically included a provision about denying access for loud
boats? Shouldn't the city then be able to allow for the construction of another marina close by. After all, let's give the marina what they want,
a whole bunch of pontoon boats and cobwebs and moss. All the cool boats (with owners that spend lots of money and know how to have a bit of fun at the river) can go to the new marina.
Keith Sayre
Well said Keith! Can we count on you to help the effort to make something happen about this crap?

[rivercrazy]

Well said Keith! Can we count on you to help the effort to make something happen about this crap?
I also have a place at the river and can also attest to spending gobs of cash there over the years. Furniture, construction materials, food, gas, utilities, services, launch fees, TAXES, etc.....

[Huckleberry]

Amen brutha Keith!!! Anyone second Keith as our Havasu local to spearhead this undertaking?

[Chris Winn]

i have to agree with Keith as well, with the money that we spend there (100k for boat, $250 per weekend on gas, $250-300 for food, $100 for beer (thats being easy on it) and the costs of the house and/or hotel rental) we should be regarded better. if you remove those people and the spending they do, the lake and it's community would suffer for quite a while. i would like to see real estate agent or a developer disagree with us on this.
the marina is wrong, but with all of the complaints that the board has vented, i have yet to see that turn into action. i don't mean that in a negitive manner, i am at a loss as to what should be done legally aginst them, but i would donate to a leagl fund to take them on....

[Tremor Therapy]

Hey AZDon.....thanks for the generalization of all Californian's......and since I have met only one a'hole resident of Havasu...should I generalize and say "up yours grouchy bastards?"
I live very close to the beaches in Carlsbad and the majority of the tourists that come to these beaches in summer time and rent the condo's, buy gas, go to the zoo, sea world, the wild animal park, and legoland, visit the restaurants, dump huge amounts of money into the town, oh and drink way too much beer, and litter the beaches and parks all have AZ plates.....so right back at you with the generalized pleasantries!
Thanks for the well thought out response Keith. And for your information Don, I go to Havasu 6-8 times a year. Drop $500-$600 a day when I am their, and I bring my family (wife and two kids). We don't get drunk, don't liter, we are respectful of other boaters and the river we boat on, and we respect the residents and property of the residents of LHC.
But I too own a bone stock "performance boat" pushing a stock Mercury power plant, and I have been told my boat is too loud! So what I am getting at is the arbitrary enforcement, and citations. A hell of a way to treat a respectful visitor! And unlike your generalization, the majority of the people I have met are nice people. Like many things, the 1 percenters make us all out to look bad. If you want to clean up that element.....it won't hurt my feelings, but don't generalize based on your small world!

[GASHGAZER]

So I have a quick question...
I have yet to be bothered at the ramp, I have a Warlock 29, with a stock 502 that is still kinda loud. I get the usual fliers at the booth and pay the fee... I get the occasional muffler question and just say yup. But by the time I put my plug in and back down the ramp, I just need enough time to trim the drive down, fire up and I'm gone... all but 1 minute tops!! Then I idle out and wait for whoever drove my rig up, then pick 'em back up at the gas dock (nose in, then I'm off) so I guess I never give them the chance to give me crap.... NOW, you get some jagoff in a family boat or of the such that thinks they are launching the Queen Mary, takes a crap load of time, trying to get their POS started on the ramp, cus that's the only place the maintenance their boats, sits right in everyones way while their moronic driver has no clue where to park, o ya and they forget to turn their head while launching... if that's the customers they want, they are more than welcome to them.... Unfortunatly I'll admit to continue launching till I get my own personal ration of crap, unless Nautical has open launching... site 6 sucks with even more rookies and Windsor loves to eat props... Just my .02 and I had to vent...

[Toomstone]

So I have a quick question...
I have yet to be bothered at the ramp, I have a Warlock 29, with a stock 502 that is still kinda loud. I get the usual fliers at the booth and pay the fee... I get the occasional muffler question and just say yup. But by the time I put my plug in and back down the ramp, I just need enough time to trim the drive down, fire up and I'm gone... all but 1 minute tops!! Then I idle out and wait for whoever drove my rig up, then pick 'em back up at the gas dock (nose in, then I'm off) so I guess I never give them the chance to give me crap.... NOW, you get some jagoff in a family boat or of the such that thinks they are launching the Queen Mary, takes a crap load of time, trying to get their POS started on the ramp, cus that's the only place the maintenance their boats, sits right in everyones way while their moronic driver has no clue where to park, o ya and they forget to turn their head while launching... if that's the customers they want, they are more than welcome to them.... Unfortunatly I'll admit to continue launching till I get my own personal ration of crap, unless Nautical has open launching... site 6 sucks with even more rookies and Windsor loves to eat props... Just my .02 and I had to vent...
i agree, we get everything ready while waiting in line. then get it in the water unhook the bow line and were off. dont sit there in the water packing your boat wasting everybody's time :mad: then when were gettin off the lake,get it on the trailer, hook it up, and everybody stays in the boat until were safely off the ramp and out of the way. i have never takin longer than 2 minutes.

[welk2party]

Essex 502--I agree.
I would estimate that the average California "hot boat" family or group spends $500 to $750 per day in Havasu. Anyone who doubts this, needs
to look around. The number could be higher! This doesn't even count
the purchase of their boats, equipment, storage units, boat repairs and
maintenance and even more if they buy a home here.
If you close our lake or allow someone to drive "hot boat" or "high performance" boaters away, our city will be bankrupt and dusty by the
end of dinner tonight. Not tommorrow or next week--today.
I also have to say that as a local full time resident of Lake Havasu, I too
don't like the idiots that show up here 3 or 4 holiday weekends a year, but
to say that a good portion of our residents don't like the noise etc here is
absolutely incorrect. The old folks are deaf so they can't hear the boats
anyway. The younger ones are all at the lake having fun. This is a river
town, not a resort-golf town for the elderly. My neighbors are almost all
retired, everyone of them has a hot rod a harley and a loud boat. Other
than the "non boat owner" idiots of the 4 big weekends every year, we ALL
welcome the "California-Hot Boater" and hope that you will continue coming
here.
As for the marina thing, I always thought that their job over there was to
rent slips, pump gas and launch boats. I guess they're also in charge of
law enforcement too? I suppose any private business can turn down money
and business for whatever reason but when you have a monopoly set up
with a contract, wouldn't the marina be in violation of their contract unless
the contract specifically included a provision about denying access for loud
boats? Shouldn't the city then be able to allow for the construction of another marina close by. After all, let's give the marina what they want,
a whole bunch of pontoon boats and cobwebs and moss. All the cool boats (with owners that spend lots of money and know how to have a bit of fun at the river) can go to the new marina.
Keith Sayre
Well said Keith. There are a percentage of the bad element that ruin the fun for everyone in all walks of life. :rolleyes:

[LakeRacer]

Hey AZDon.....thanks for the generalization of all Californian's......and since I have met only one a'hole resident of Havasu...should I generalize and say "up yours grouchy bastards?"
I live very close to the beaches in Carlsbad and the majority of the tourists that come to these beaches in summer time and rent the condo's, buy gas, go to the zoo, sea world, the wild animal park, and legoland, visit the restaurants, dump huge amounts of money into the town, oh and drink way too much beer, and litter the beaches and parks all have AZ plates.....so right back at you with the generalized pleasantries!
Thanks for the well thought out response Keith. And for your information Don, I go to Havasu 6-8 times a year. Drop $500-$600 a day when I am their, and I bring my family (wife and two kids). We don't get drunk, don't liter, we are respectful of other boaters and the river we boat on, and we respect the residents and property of the residents of LHC.
But I too own a bone stock "performance boat" pushing a stock Mercury power plant, and I have been told my boat is too loud! So what I am getting at is the arbitrary enforcement, and citations. A hell of a way to treat a respectful visitor! And unlike your generalization, the majority of the people I have met are nice people. Like many things, the 1 percenters make us all out to look bad. If you want to clean up that element.....it won't hurt my feelings, but don't generalize based on your small world!
I went to the State Land Dept. today and got a copy of the lease. It started on the 1st day of February 1965 and ends January 31, 2015. Havasu Marina is petioning the State to renegotiate the lease (only ten more years left.)
Section 4, Paragraph B: ...shall have the only marina facility at Pittsburg Point until such time as said marina has been developed to it total slip capacity of approximately 700 slips blah blah blah....subconcessionaire shall have first right of refusal on any additional marina to be installed.
This is Pittsburg Point and includes Site Six in the master lease area. My understanding is that another marina CAN be built just not in this master lease area.
Section 6, Concession Operations, Paragraph 4: One improved launching ramp for use by the public without charge.
This probably changed with an amendment that I couldn't find letting them charge for the ramp. Keep in mind also I haven't read all of the lease.
In November of 1993 Havasu Marina filed a Complaint for Injunction to stop the City from operating a Marina at Site Six.
Currently, it is my understanding that the City also filed an application to purchase the Havasu Marina/master lease late last year by auction/bid. But no sale has been made yet to any party...the lease is still in effect.
Interesting stuff and is public information by just going down to the State Land Department. Has anyone found a lawyer that is willing to step up. I have some good info to start with.

[Essex502]

i agree, we get everything ready while waiting in line. then get it in the water unhook the bow line and were off. dont sit there in the water packing your boat wasting everybody's time :mad: then when were gettin off the lake,get it on the trailer, hook it up, and everybody stays in the boat until were safely off the ramp and out of the way. i have never takin longer than 2 minutes.
We're the same way and I fire the motor up once the tips of the exhaust are underwater so my idle is legal - by AZ law...but who knows if I'm "legal" by Marina BS rules? Fire it up disconnect the bow strap and I'm outta' there. Same coming back in slow idle right onto the trailer. We use the FRS radios so I know the truck is ready for me when I idle in...timing it right when I tell the wife "that's good" I'm almost on the trailer.
We need to organize and use all legal methods to abort this fascist pig of a manager...
Fascism...2. Oppressive, dictatorial control.

[SpectraJoel]

The solution is simple!!!! We just need to use these!
Navigator Tournament Series Motors
Engine-Mounted Electric Trolling Motors
Now with 100% waterproof control box. The Navigator is made specifically for those times when your boat size or high winds prevent you from using your ordinary trolling motor. You control the boat without ever leaving the helm. The Tournament series permanently mounts to any I/O or outboard motor. Weatherproof remote controls and Pulse-Width Modulation electronics that withstand the harshest marine environments. The handheld remote will survive repeated submersions and drops onto a hard deck. Controls feature forward and reverse, variable speed and Soft Start for effortless operation. The innovative electronic design greatly extends battery life. All cabling and stainless steel hardware is included for easy installation. Saltwater models are available with stainless steel brackets.
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jhtml?id=0001090010738a&navCount=0&cmCat=srchdx&cm_ven=srchdx&cm_ite=srchdx

[AzDon]

Summer visitors are generally high-income working Californians who arrive in large numbers on weekends. They are hit-n-run tourists in that, they are in a hurry to party hard for a few short days before returning home for work. A lot of these folks that spend some mad cash here in a short period of time expect a sodom-and- gomorrah experience in return and believe that it is Lake Havasu's obligation to allow it. Most of these folks would demand National Gaurd intervention if this kind of behavior broke out in THEIR neighborhood, but because they spend some money here, they have a right to expect it here?? WRONG!! Most locals would agree that they'd rather see LE visitor guys stay home rather than think they can come here and grope and beat-up teenage girls. Most of us would prefer our visitors stay safely at home rather than drunkenly running their boats into each other in the dark. I'm not saying that we don't or won't welcome visitors. I'm just saying that nobody here appreciates the rockstar/rude/entitled attitude folks. Those are the ones most locals agree should stay home. We like CIVILIZED tourists!
I would apologize for making a broad generalization, except that anybody that reads my post carefully can see that I DID NOT!
The first two sentences are not demeaning in any way, and the third sentence starts with "A lot of these folks" (doesn't imply ALL of these folks!) The "Most of these folks" in the next sentence are a subgroup of the third sentence folks. I then laid several examples out of behavior that EVERY local would prefer not to read about in the paper. What's wrong with that? The end section states that courteous, respectful visitors are welcome any time and I think most of this kind of visitor gets in and out of the marina without being hassled.
Apparently the marina manager, through some experience or bias, has typecast certain types of boats and their owners as problematic and is implying that illegal behavior is taking place and he's also insisting that he runs a private business that reserves the right to refuse service without cause.
If this puts him in violation of his lease, those of you that have a direct interest should challenge the lease. Maybe then Mr. McCulloch might fire the guy and establish a "new attitude" regarding ***boats.
The place has plenty of valuable business, so nothing is gonna change unless their lease is threatened!

[SpectraJoel]

For some reason I believe that there may be some sort of a grandfather clause regarding the permitted noise levels. Older boats can be noisier than newer ones... ANyone recall something similar??

[Mandelon]

Someone will come up with manually operated clamp on mufflers that you can put on your exhaust tips to launch and then once you are out and about you can pull them off......

[C-2]

I went to the State Land Dept. today and got a copy of the lease. It started on the 1st day of February 1965 and ends January 31, 2015. Havasu Marina is petioning the State to renegotiate the lease (only ten more years left.)
Section 4, Paragraph B: ...shall have the only marina facility at Pittsburg Point until such time as said marina has been developed to it total slip capacity of approximately 700 slips blah blah blah....subconcessionaire shall have first right of refusal on any additional marina to be installed.
This is Pittsburg Point and includes Site Six in the master lease area. My understanding is that another marina CAN be built just not in this master lease area.
Section 6, Concession Operations, Paragraph 4: One improved launching ramp for use by the public without charge.
This probably changed with an amendment that I couldn't find letting them charge for the ramp. Keep in mind also I haven't read all of the lease.
In November of 1993 Havasu Marina filed a Complaint for Injunction to stop the City from operating a Marina at Site Six.
Currently, it is my understanding that the City also filed an application to purchase the Havasu Marina/master lease late last year by auction/bid. But no sale has been made yet to any party...the lease is still in effect.
Interesting stuff and is public information by just going down to the State Land Department. Has anyone found a lawyer that is willing to step up. I have some good info to start with.
Well, there goes the theory the city is backing the guy - doesn't sound like it.
Art, can you fax me a copy of the lease (or email in PDF)? Is the city the lessee and the marina it's sub-lessee?

[LakeRacer]

Well, there goes the theory the city is backing the guy - doesn't sound like it.
Art, can you fax me a copy of the lease (or email in PDF)? Is the city the lessee and the marina it's sub-lessee?
No, the city is not the lessee. One of McColluchs companies has the lease and sub-leases to Havasu Marina Inc. (a McColluch company.) I'll double check this. I'll have to fax it to you in the morning. PM me with you fax no. I don't know if I still have it.

[SpectraJoel]

One solution (http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jhtml?id=0001090010738a&navCount=0&cmCat=srchdx&cm_ven=srchdx&cm_ite=srchdx)

[SpectraJoel]

One more time....http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/4240i010738sq01.jpg

[LakeRacer]

Something else I found in the records was an email that was sent to the State Land Dept by a disgruntled boater back in 2001. Basically, his family and friends spend a whole week or more at Havasu camping at one of the BLM shoreline facilities/campsites. They coordinate with their friends on who is arriving when etc. and they all have launched at the Marina for many years in the past. Well this particular year things changed. One of their friends arrived first and when they wanted to launch and store the trailer and truck in the lot they were told that they couldn't do it. After pleading their case that they had made plans the marina relented and told them store their trailer unhitched from the truck. Well the next day one of the other friends shows up at the marina and is told no way will they issue more than a 72 hour pass. Well they finally get one after they told the marina that their friends who arrived the day earlier got one. Day three another/different story which prompts the guy to send email complaining.
Does any of this sound familiar??? No consistency in any of the marinas policies.
The State Land Dept. needs to hear from you boaters who don't like the marina's policies. Send letters to:
State Land Department - Arizona
Public Records, Operations Div.
1616 W. Adams
Phoenix, AZ 85007
Sorry, I don't have an email address.

[LakeRacer]

ttt
Don't let this die.

[LakeRacer]

This thread and the other two are fading fast. You guys crack me up. You bitch and moan and groan about the marina; there have been numerous threads on this forum about it; someone says yeah we need to organize and boycott the marina, write letters, get a lawyer; but does anyone do anything about it? NO. There was a small letter writing campaign several months ago, but otherwise nothing, nada, zip. All you guys know how to do is bitch.
Anyone here want to step up to the plate? Or will it be easier to flame me for what I've just written?
PM me if you want to help out. Otherwise, I don't want to read about it unless it's helpful info.

[Havasu Jim]

Art,
Glad to see you are on your still on your toes. I have to agree with you on the noise pollution issue, complaints get know where and actions do great things. There is a new website (Havasu411.com) that just started up. I joined and posted a thread on the Noise pollution issue just to see if possibly some locals (LHC) might be aware of the issue and what their take would be, as it turns out within an hour of the posting I got some response. I think it would be interesting to see what the locals have to say. Here is a link to the post. Check it out.
http://www.havasu411.com/forum/YaBB.cgi?board=whatshot;action=display;num=1092066 834
Regards,
Havasu Jim

[Essex502]

For some reason I believe that there may be some sort of a grandfather clause regarding the permitted noise levels. Older boats can be noisier than newer ones... ANyone recall something similar??
The California law allows older boats manufactured before January 1, 1993 a decibel reading of 90 db-A while those manufactured after January 1, 1993 a maximum reading of 88 db-A using the SAE J2005 test method.

[Essex502]

Someone will come up with manually operated clamp on mufflers that you can put on your exhaust tips to launch and then once you are out and about you can pull them off......
Both AZ and CA law require full time muffling systems that cannot be easily switched. The means easily removed or the switchable type like Silent Choice or Captain's Call - both of which are technically illegal.

[Essex502]

Something else I found in the records was an email that was sent to the State Land Dept by a disgruntled boater back in 2001. Basically, his family and friends spend a whole week or more at Havasu camping at one of the BLM shoreline facilities/campsites. They coordinate with their friends on who is arriving when etc. and they all have launched at the Marina for many years in the past. Well this particular year things changed. One of their friends arrived first and when they wanted to launch and store the trailer and truck in the lot they were told that they couldn't do it. After pleading their case that they had made plans the marina relented and told them store their trailer unhitched from the truck. Well the next day one of the other friends shows up at the marina and is told no way will they issue more than a 72 hour pass. Well they finally get one after they told the marina that their friends who arrived the day earlier got one. Day three another/different story which prompts the guy to send email complaining.
Does any of this sound familiar??? No consistency in any of the marinas policies.
The State Land Dept. needs to hear from you boaters who don't like the marina's policies. Send letters to:
State Land Department - Arizona
Public Records, Operations Div.
1616 W. Adams
Phoenix, AZ 85007
Sorry, I don't have an email address.
Me thinks a letter writing campaign is in order. Does anyone want to take a stab at writing a common form letter for everyone to print out, sign and snail mail?

[Huckleberry]

Someone put together a pretty decent letter last time this was a hot issue. Wwe sent out letters to the Mayor, Chamber of Commerce, and Mr. McCollough. The only entity we ever heard back from was the Chamber of Commerce, who basically blew us off.
A form letter is nice, but I took the time to personalize mine with my personal experiences with the marina. I think it has more impact if every letter is not identical. If we can find this old letter and update it it might save some time. I'll start a search unless someone has a copy. Maybe Havasu Cig???

[Huckleberry]

No go on the search. :frown: It only came up with the two currently open threads. I'm guessing this is because the threads are fairly old and have been closed by the Admin folks. Can they do a search of the old threads? Moderators???
Come on folks, like Art said...This has come up sooo many times and we all bitch about it, but very few of us actually do anything. It's time to put up or shut up! I say we strike while the iron is hot.

[Essex502]

Someone put together a pretty decent letter last time this was a hot issue. Wwe sent out letters to the Mayor, Chamber of Commerce, and Mr. McCollough. The only entity we ever heard back from was the Chamber of Commerce, who basically blew us off.
A form letter is nice, but I took the time to personalize mine with my personal experiences with the marina. I think it has more impact if every letter is not identical. If we can find this old letter and update it it might save some time. I'll start a search unless someone has a copy. Maybe Havasu Cig???
This letter needs to be specific at least on the noise issue as the Marina is being stricker than AZ law. Where do they get off? This time I think we need to get the state involved as the Marina'a lease is with them. I doubt the city has any legal influence over the marina.
I did get a letter from the Mayor in the last "campaign" of letter writing.

[SpectraJoel]

The California law allows older boats manufactured before January 1, 1993 a decibel reading of 90 db-A while those manufactured after January 1, 1993 a maximum reading of 88 db-A using the SAE J2005 test method.
Thanks Essex502

[Essex_Sterling]

First off, I agree that the way the marina is handling this situation is not right. They can not put themselves in a position to enforce any laws on the lake. However, they can "enforce" the law by not allowing any boat that is in violation of the law by refusing to allow that boat to launch, any business can refuse service. But it needs to be in a non-discriminatory manner.
Now, will they be able to determine what is a legal vs. non-legal boat? I doubt it. There is no way that they can stand behind a boat and peform a db reading test to the AZ law specifications, that is 50 ft behind the back of the boat. Add into the fact that the walls on the sides of the marina will only cause the noise to reverberate and also the other boats launching and their exhaust contributing to the noise level, it will be impossible for them to make any legal determination on noise level for any one boat. The marina manager even admitted in the newspaper article that they will not have the ability to take readings that follow the guidelines of the test. So, like I said, the marina, IMHO, is going about this all wrong and it may come ack to bite them in the a$$. They can't be any more strict than the current law.
All of that being said, there is a law on the AZ books that has been on the books since 1974 accoding to Boatcop. That law is 86 db. If you are above the 86 db you are in violation of the law, deal with it. Is the law stupid? Yes, it's an incredibly stupid law. But complaining about the law or whining about getting a ticket, when you know you are in violation of the law is like a person who knowingly speeds on the way to the river, like no on on here does that :rolleyes: , and then complains that the CHP pulled them over and wrote them a ticket, guess what, you were breaking the law. So, either deal with meeting the law, work to get the law changed, or resign yourself to the fact that you may receive ticket if stopped by LE on the lake.
And before I get flamed keep in mind I think the marina is off their rocker about this and they way that they will be applying/enforcing their rule is not aligned with the law as it reads in AZ. That is the crux of the problem and the way some of the employees deal with the public over this issue. Also, even some of the employees of the marina don't like the manager and admit he should not be running the place.
Flame away because I wore my fire suit today. :cool:

[Essex502]

Thanks Essex502
If you're interested the California law: California AB1555 (Noise Law) (http://www.dbw.ca.gov/PDF/AB1555.pdf)

[Essex502]

First off, I agree that the way the marina is handling this situation is not right. They can not put themselves in a position to enforce any laws on the lake. However, they can "enforce" the law by not allowing any boat that is in violation of the law by refusing to allow that boat to launch, any business can refuse service. But it needs to be in a non-discriminatory manner.
Now, will they be able to determine what is a legal vs. non-legal boat? I doubt it. There is no way that they can stand behind a boat and peform a db reading test to the AZ law specifications, that is 50 ft behind the back of the boat. Add into the fact that the walls on the sides of the marina will only cause the noise to reverberate and also the other boats launching and their exhaust contributing to the noise level, it will be impossible for them to make any legal determination on noise level for any one boat. The marina manager even admitted in the newspaper article that they will not have the ability to take readings that follow the guidelines of the test. So, like I said, the marina, IMHO, is going about this all wrong and it may come ack to bite them in the a$$. They can't be any more strict than the current law.
All of that being said, there is a law on the AZ books that has been on the books since 1974 accoding to Boatcop. That law is 86 db. If you are above the 86 db you are in violation of the law, deal with it. Is the law stupid? Yes, it's an incredibly stupid law. But complaining about the law or whining about getting a ticket, when you know you are in violation of the law is like a person who knowingly speeds on the way to the river, like no on on here does that :rolleyes: , and then complains that the CHP pulled them over and wrote them a ticket, guess what, you were breaking the law. So, either deal with meeting the law, work to get the law changed, or resign yourself to the fact that you may receive ticket if stopped by LE on the lake.
And before I get flamed keep in mind I think the marina is off their rocker about this and they way that they will be applying/enforcing their rule is not aligned with the law as it reads in AZ. That is the crux of the problem and the way some of the employees deal with the public over this issue. Also, even some of the employees of the marina don't like the manager and admit he should not be running the place.
Flame away because I wore my fire suit today. :cool:
Not a flame...but...the 86 decibels is at 50' away....noise levels drop 6 db for every doubling of the distance...so...@ 25' the LAW would allow 92 db-A or 12-1/2' = 98 db-A or at 6-1/4' = 104 db-A....many, many of our boats PASS this test - THAT'S THE POINT>>>the Marina's manager's plan to be right behind the boat is GROSSLY more restrictive than the law.
NOTE: The decibel drop is from a Stanford Univeristy noise study: Paper on Noise (http://adg.stanford.edu/aa241/noise/noise.html)
Also, noise meters are not directional...they pick up echos from all directions. I have one and I've tested it against various boats and it is not very discriminating as to where the noise is coming from. Shouts, talking, etc. all skew these tests. A typical food blender at 3' is 90 db-A!

[C-2]

Thanks Art, I got the copy of the lease.
As Art pointed out - we are getting close to cr*@p or get off the pot. We need a contact in Havasu willing to retrieve records and talk to folks. Not necessarily at lightning speed, but somebody who can throw some time at it.
At this point I'm not sure suing is the answer or solution. Undoubtedly the marina maintains a healthy insurance policy, which would tender them a defense to any lawsuit, at minimal expense to them (a deductible). We, on the other hand, would have to pony up some money - between $5-$10K to explore and/or initiate a suit; and probably $3-$5K per month to sustain it. My initial take on this lease there are also others in existence we don't yet know about.
Maybe we should look at the new development and focus our efforts on backing and supporting them. Contact the new developer, tell him our position, and should the need arise, barrage the city and state agencies with letters of support.
But again, we need somebody in town to be abkle to go to the courthouse to review old files, and to find out more about the proposed new development.
This boycott idea - probably not going to affect the marina at all. Afterall, if they are willing to kick performance boats off the lake - then they are willing to accept those losses. With that in mind - if they were gonna stop you from launching anyways, then you "boycotting" them really doesn't make since. And for gas - just plan a little wiser and get fuel in town.
If runabouts and other casual boats boycotted the place; then it might hurt. So accordingly, spread the word to these folks.
I personally don't have time to lead this crusade, but am willing to help as much as time permits.
We need a leader......hmmmm....somebody who has lead a group of boaters before.....hey, I know somebody. Whadda ya say Art - or too busy as well these days?
And again, we need somebody local to help out.

[Essex_Sterling]

Not a flame...but...the 86 decibels is at 50' away....noise levels drop 6 db for every doubling of the distance...so...@ 25' the LAW would allow 92 db-A or 12-1/2' = 98 db-A or at 6-1/4' = 104 db-A....many, many of our boats PASS this test - THAT'S THE POINT>>>the Marina's manager's plan to be right behind the boat is GROSSLY more restrictive than the law.
NOTE: The decibel drop is from a Stanford Univeristy noise study: Paper on Noise (http://adg.stanford.edu/aa241/noise/noise.html)
Also, noise meters are not directional...they pick up echos from all directions. I have one and I've tested it against various boats and it is not very discriminating as to where the noise is coming from. Shouts, talking, etc. all skew these tests. A typical food blender at 3' is 90 db-A!
I agree with all of that. The marina is way off base in the way they are handlingt his. That needs to be addressed. What I was trying to get across was that law is the law. That to me is a separate issue from the marina and the way they are dealing with this issue.

[Keithb87]

Is this guy going to be in the water to test these " Boats in Question" ? Unless you are running OT Headers, the water will muffle some of the noise.
:idea: If he is in the Water at the launch ramp, wouldn't that be a safety issue that the LE could remove him for his own safety? :idea:

[C-2]

I agree with all of that. The marina is way off base in the way they are handlingt his. That needs to be addressed. What I was trying to get across was that law is the law. That to me is a separate issue from the marina and the way they are dealing with this issue.
It is the law, we all know that. But it started out as your boat is too big, then escalated to "performance boaters are a**holes, I'm gonna kickall of em' out". He is using the noise law as his current vehicle to accomplish his goal.
If there is in fact a condition of the lease to provide public launch ramp services to "all" boaters - then I think everybody is being screwed, by both the city and this guy. If no such condition exists and it is purely a private enterprise - then i'll be the first to drop the isue and go running home with my tail between my legs, and find someplace else to launch.
Having a right of first refusal, which we know exists, kinda deters any other thoughts on building a new marina.
This issue has been beat to death for the past year, but it didn't start as a noise issue. Unless LE is mandating the guy enforce the noise law - he doesn't need to.
:)

[Keithb87]

Unless LE is mandating the guy enforce the noise law - he doesn't need to.
:)
Can LE give him the right / duty to enforce noise laws, or should he have to call the police to do the test for every boat he thinks is too loud? I would think that would be enough of a burden on the LE at the lake that they would get tired of answering his calls and ignore him.

[Havasu_Dreamin]

Unless LE is mandating the guy enforce the noise law - he doesn't need to.
:)
But as a business operator, can't he refuse service to anyone who does not meet the law? As long as it is done in accordance with the law mind you, not just some guy saying hey, you're too loud you have to leave without performing any type of test that follows the guidelines of the law. I don't know how this works given it is a lease of public lands.

[Havasu Cig]

This thread and the other two are fading fast. You guys crack me up. You bitch and moan and groan about the marina; there have been numerous threads on this forum about it; someone says yeah we need to organize and boycott the marina, write letters, get a lawyer; but does anyone do anything about it? NO. There was a small letter writing campaign several months ago, but otherwise nothing, nada, zip. All you guys know how to do is bitch.
Anyone here want to step up to the plate? Or will it be easier to flame me for what I've just written?
PM me if you want to help out. Otherwise, I don't want to read about it unless it's helpful info.
I will write a letter. I wrote a few the last time, maybe this time it will be more effective. I will also get some friends that are boaters to write as well. EVERYBODY needs to do this!!!

[Havasu Cig]

Someone put together a pretty decent letter last time this was a hot issue. Wwe sent out letters to the Mayor, Chamber of Commerce, and Mr. McCollough. The only entity we ever heard back from was the Chamber of Commerce, who basically blew us off.
A form letter is nice, but I took the time to personalize mine with my personal experiences with the marina. I think it has more impact if every letter is not identical. If we can find this old letter and update it it might save some time. I'll start a search unless someone has a copy. Maybe Havasu Cig???
I don't have a copy. I wrote my own letters last time, but I do remember someone posting a letter.

[Essex502]

I will write a letter. I wrote a few the last time, maybe this time it will be more effective. I will also get some friends that are boaters to write as well. EVERYBODY needs to do this!!!
If you would post the list of addresses and names that you might suggest we write to I'd be happy to also put pen to paper (or laser printer) and send a few letters myself.

[Essex502]

Having a right of first refusal, which we know exists, kinda deters any other thoughts on building a new marina.
:)
Is it a "first right of refusal" anywhere on the lake or in a certain area?

[Keithb87]

If you would post the list of addresses and names that you might suggest we write to I'd be happy to also put pen to paper (or laser printer) and send a few letters myself.
I'll write and so will all of my friends and family..... All i need is the address to send them too.. :)

[Havasu Cig]

The State Land Dept. needs to hear from you boaters who don't like the marina's policies. Send letters to:
State Land Department - Arizona
Public Records, Operations Div.
1616 W. Adams
Phoenix, AZ 85007
I would try the above. Art posted this on page 5 of this thread. Last time I wrote to Richie McCullough, LHC Mayor, and the City Council. I also e-mailed the city and got a response from a person that is in charge of development for the City. She was very nice and told me about the first right of refusal the marina has and also told me there was nothing she could do for me. I did not get a response from the letters.

[LakeRacer]

I don't think a letter writing campaign right now would hurt our efforts. I suggest writing to the AZ State Land Dept. since they granted the easement to the marina.
The address is:
AZ State Land Dept.
Operations Division
1616 W. Adams St.
Phoenix, AZ 85007
Craft your letters carefully and be specific and factual about what happened at the marina and why you weren't allowed to launch your boat. We have several issues to contend with...noise, length of boat, length of stay, and not being able to rent a slip. For those of you who have witnessed firsthand the antics of the marina, now is your chance.
Please do me a favor: send me a copy of your letter. If you don't mind I'll be the central location for all information. With regards to leading this endeavor, I'll try. Right now I'm working on an angle for getting a lawyer to help us with minimal charge. As soon as I get a little more info I'll give you the scoop.
Also, since my phone number and email address are all over the internet; you can reach me at 602-318-5785 or art397@cox.net. If you call, don't block the number 'cause I won't answer.

[LakeRacer]

Is it a "first right of refusal" anywhere on the lake or in a certain area?
Pretty much the whole island and a portion of the Arizona shoreline.

[LakeRacer]

Thanks Art, I got the copy of the lease.
As Art pointed out - we are getting close to cr*@p or get off the pot. We need a contact in Havasu willing to retrieve records and talk to folks. Not necessarily at lightning speed, but somebody who can throw some time at it.
At this point I'm not sure suing is the answer or solution. Undoubtedly the marina maintains a healthy insurance policy, which would tender them a defense to any lawsuit, at minimal expense to them (a deductible). We, on the other hand, would have to pony up some money - between $5-$10K to explore and/or initiate a suit; and probably $3-$5K per month to sustain it. My initial take on this lease there are also others in existence we don't yet know about.
Maybe we should look at the new development and focus our efforts on backing and supporting them. Contact the new developer, tell him our position, and should the need arise, barrage the city and state agencies with letters of support.
But again, we need somebody in town to be abkle to go to the courthouse to review old files, and to find out more about the proposed new development.
This boycott idea - probably not going to affect the marina at all. Afterall, if they are willing to kick performance boats off the lake - then they are willing to accept those losses. With that in mind - if they were gonna stop you from launching anyways, then you "boycotting" them really doesn't make since. And for gas - just plan a little wiser and get fuel in town.
If runabouts and other casual boats boycotted the place; then it might hurt. So accordingly, spread the word to these folks.
I personally don't have time to lead this crusade, but am willing to help as much as time permits.
We need a leader......hmmmm....somebody who has lead a group of boaters before.....hey, I know somebody. Whadda ya say Art - or too busy as well these days?
And again, we need somebody local to help out.
I won't throw out the lawsuit option just yet. We'll have to wait and see. Finding out who the developer is - no problem. I'll find that out in the next few days. And yes, if the time comes we need to support them.
A local contact will also help. I'll see if I can coerce...I mean talk someone into it.
I agree Craig about a boycott's effects. A boycott is good as far as personal satisfaction goes. It could serve a purpose for public and journalistic exposure if we did something on the water or out front. We would have to get the required permits to demonstrate.
Oh what fun this is :rolleyes:

[Havasu_Dreamin]

We would have to get the required permits to demonstrate.
Oh what fun this is :rolleyes:
Can't anyone anchor anywhere in Thompson bay? If so, can't a line of boats just anchor and block the entrance to the marina? What are they going to do, make you move? They don't own the waterway. I could see LE making people move due to safety reasons, for example if they had to bring someone back to the launch ramp for emergency reasons. Of course you would also want to ahve someone standing at the entrance to the marina from the island letting people know about the "blockade" so they don't go in and launch and then get pissed. Pissing off the other boaters wold not do any good in this situation.

[Havasu Cig]

I don't know about AZ law, but in Califonia you can demonstrate without permit but you can't block access to a business. As long as customers can still access or leave the business you won't have a problem.

[LakeRacer]

Where does ***boat stand on thier investigation ? bottom line, the marina sucks, the marina manager sucks, JUST DON'T USE IT, TELL YOUR FRIENDS NOT TO USE IT.
Agreed. Until I can organize a plan of attack, we need to have a letter writing campaign from anyone that has had first hand experience with the marina for either loud exhaust, length of boat, or length of stay. Or any other experience where you felt you were mistreated. Come one folks...you want change? I'm willing to lead the way but I need your help.
AZ State Land Dept.
Operations Division
1616 W. Adams St.
Phoenix, AZ 85007
Reference: Havasu Marina Inc (leaseholder)
Lease No. 32-99062

[LakeRacer]

A typical food blender at 3' is 90 db-A!
Apparently, a typical Jeff Bekkedahl tirade at 3' is 93 db-a !!! :D :D :D

[TCHB]

Do not spend your money at the Marina *Jeff Bekkedahl* :cry:

[Keithb87]

***bump***

[Essex502]

I can start the letter campaign (at least my part) tonight. I will be in Havasu this weekend - Friday & Saturday on the water pretty much in Steamboat most of the time. If anyone wants to hook up and do any planning, look me up.
Look for this in Steamboat:
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/279Havasu1_640.jpg

[TCHB]

Post Comments on Havasu News on line
http://www.havasunews.com/

[C-2]

Art (LakeRacer) and I had a productive phone call today and after reviewing the original lease, agree the operators of the marina are bound by the lease to provide recreational opportunities to the public. That was an original (and still existing) condition of the lease and IS subject to audit by the land owner, Arizona State Land Department.
We are continuing with our research on several fronts. In the meantime, feel free to document your complaints about the current conditions at the marina, and send them to the state.
In the near future we will start another thread with specific details and how we can get the state to light a fire under this guy's tail. Remember, the current lease is set to expire in ten years and the marina is already petitioning the state to renew it. If there are several hundred letters/complaints in the file, what would you be thinking if you were the state?
We will also need to start taking some of the discussion off the board for obvious strategic reasons, any thoughts on this?
And lastly, again, we need contacts in Havasu and Kingman to help retrieve documents and things.
It's time to bring this thing together. :)

[LakeRacer]

Art (LakeRacer) and I had a productive phone call today and after reviewing the original lease, agree the operators of the marina are bound by the lease to provide recreational opportunities to the public. That was an original (and still existing) condition of the lease and IS subject to audit by the land owner, Arizona State Land Department.
We are continuing with our research on several fronts. In the meantime, feel free to document your complaints about the current conditions at the marina, and send them to the state.
In the near future we will start another thread with specific details and how we can get the state to light a fire under this guy's tail. Remember, the current lease is set to expire in ten years and the marina is already petitioning the state to renew it. If there are several hundred letters/complaints in the file, what would you be thinking if you were the state?
We will also need to start taking some of the discussion off the board for obvious strategic reasons, any thoughts on this?
And lastly, again, we need contacts in Havasu and Kingman to help retrieve documents and things.
It's time to bring this thing together. :)
We need to bombard the State with letters. Come on people! You wanted action...we're leading the way. Now do your part or quit complaining.

[Essex502]

We need to bombard the State with letters. Come on people! You wanted action...we're leading the way. Now do your part or quit complaining.
What would be good is to take the discussion offline if someone could set up a discussion forum or such that would need membership to see the posts. Nothing exotic but we don't necessarily want to inform the Marina of our strategy to combat this abusive behaviour.
We are going to attempt to launch a boat this weekend at the Marina that will be legal but right on the edge. We'll try to have a camcorder or tape recorder to capture any comment/orders/or such from the Marina staff.

[91nordic29]

bump :cool:

[Havasu Cig]

Like Art said, EVERYBODY needs to write a letter.

[LakeRacer]

Like Art said, EVERYBODY needs to write a letter.
I've written mine and will be sending today or tomorrow.

[Chris Winn]

We need to bombard the State with letters. Come on people! You wanted action...we're leading the way. Now do your part or quit complaining.
mine is done Art, thanks be to you for provide both the motivation and the fortitude (also for posting the address) to assistus in a cuase we should all care about.
also thanks to C2 for his work with Art in researching the lease, i know that this is not an easy step and it requires the training (education) to do so, but it is appriciated.

[Keithb87]

State Land Department - Arizona
Public Records, Operations Div.
1616 W. Adams
Phoenix, AZ 85007
Keith B87
Mesa, Az
To Whom It May Concern:
I was planning a trip to Lake Havasu City for my family this summer but with all of the hassle and arguing with the owner of the Marina there I have since decided to cancel this trip and go to spend my money elsewhere. I have been doing some research on line and have read some very disturbing reports about the attitude of the “Owner” of the Marina there at the Lake. Because of the type of boat that I own, apparently He would not allow me to Launch there because of “Potential Noise”. Furthermore he has made statements to the Press that “Any suspicious looking boat” would be tested by him and that he would not be doing his “Test” according to the Arizona State Law at 50 feet from the boat.
I just wanted to let someone know that although Lake Havasu City and the facilities there look extremely inviting, I will find somewhere else to take my Family Vacation.
In my opinion, it would be in the State of Arizona’s best interest to seriously reconsider the BLM lease that they currently have with the Marina at Lake Havasu.
Sincerely,
Keith
Is this what we are looking for? Just need an opinion. Thanks
Keith(trying to help) B87

[SpectraJoel]

State Land Department - Arizona
Public Records, Operations Div.
1616 W. Adams
Phoenix, AZ 85007
Joel Blauvelt
Northridge, CA. 91324
To Whom It May Concern:
I was planning a trip to Lake Havasu this summer but with the increased amount of hassling and arguing that boat owners are having with the owner of the marina, I have since decided to cancel this trip and vacation elsewhere. I have been doing some research of my own and have read some very disturbing reports about the attitude of the “Owner” of the marina there at the Lake.
The owner of the marina has made it clear to all boat owners that he is going to blatantly disregard the laws regarding Watercraft Noise set forth by the State of Arizona. Additionally, he has stated that he will not be testing boats in either a fair or consistent manner. Instead he will be using testing methods, which, are of his own design, and are not publicly known. Furthermore he has made statements to the press that “Any suspicious looking boat” would be singled out and tested. It is clear to me and my friends that the owner of the marina is conducting a witch hunt of his own.
Allowing the marina operator to redefine State Laws as he sees fit, sets forth a very dangerous precedent, and sends the alarming message to all boaters in the region that performance family boaters, and the money that they bring, are no longer welcome to Lake Havasu City.
In my opinion, it would be in the State of Arizona’s best interest to investigate these allegations. I would also suggest reconsidering the BLM lease that they currently have with the marina at Lake Havasu.
Sincerely,
Joel Blauvelt

[Ducatista]

We are going to attempt to launch a boat this weekend at the Marina that will be legal but right on the edge. We'll try to have a camcorder or tape recorder to capture any comment/orders/or such from the Marina staff.[/QUOTE]
Darn good idea Essex! Good job guys, I have my sec(wifey) working on my letter now, and will get it out, thanks for the info and your effort. Should we be sending a copy anywhere else, besides the State Land Dept, that would be helpful in our cause?

[Essex502]

Darn good idea Essex! Good job guys, I have my sec(wifey) working on my letter now, and will get it out, thanks for the info and your effort. Should we be sending a copy anywhere else, besides the State Land Dept, that would be helpful in our cause?
You might try sending it to:
Lake Havasu City Convention and Vistiors Bureau
314 London Bridge Road
Lake Havasu City, AZ 86403
(928) 453-3444 Phone
(928) 453-3344 Fax
Parks & Recreation
Phone: 928-453-8686
Fax: 928-453-1133
ParksnRec@ci.lake-havasu-city.az.us
Just some thoughts.

[SpectraJoel]

Is there a Board of Tourism in Havasu? I am sure they would want to know about this as well.

[SpectraJoel]

Can someone post a "Sticky" thread that only lists the addresses of the places we should be writing to? Just have to make sure its only an informational post and not one that has any direct ties to the noise threads. It is important that it is factual and informational only. I would reccomend that it be read only for everyone except moderators.
Could call it something like:
"City, State, Federal Boating Contacts -- Public & Private"

[Havasu Cig]

That's a good idea.

[Essex502]

Is there a Board of Tourism in Havasu? I am sure they would want to know about this as well.
I'd try the Lake Havasu City Convention and Vistiors Bureau I listed before.

[Sherpa]

everyone here seems to voice the same story... you want the manager to
quit being an ass, so you can launch at havasu marina..... sounds like a hard
battle. hope ya'll are ready for the fight.
me, I'd much rather show my true feelings by just launching someplace else.
period.....
show the ass his problems, by denying him your cash....
don't buy their fuel either........ buy that gas in town for pete's sake. are
people that lazy to not buy fuel in town-? saves you AT LEAST A BUCK A
GALLON-!
go elsewhere.......................................
--Sherpa

[SpectraJoel]

everyone here seems to voice the same story... you want the manager to
quit being an ass, so you can launch at havasu marina..... sounds like a hard
battle. hope ya'll are ready for the fight.
me, I'd much rather show my true feelings by just launching someplace else.
period.....
show the ass his problems, by denying him your cash....
don't buy their fuel either........ buy that gas in town for pete's sake. are
people that lazy to not buy fuel in town-? saves you AT LEAST A BUCK A
GALLON-!
go elsewhere.......................................
--Sherpa
Going elsewhere is part of the solution, but you have to remember that all the pwc's and other visitors who are not knowledgeable because they are not affected will continue to spend their money at the marina.

[Sherpa]

guess all that can/could be done would be to educate those who don't know
any better...............
complaing about it isn't helping, contacting the city with complaints of
contract violations (non-LEO business conducting itself as if it were an LEO)
--just say no to the place period....
--Sherpa

[Havasu Cig]

The problem with just saying no to the place is they have the only decent ramp in the City to launch a larger size boat. If they did not have first right of refusal for another marina to be built maybe they would change their practices.
I own a home in Havasu and have only used it once this year in large part because of the hassles of launching and retrieving my boat on an unprotected ramp such as Windsor.
The Marina should either abide by the rules of their lease, or their lease should be terminated. They have a monopoly and they know it.

[skater40]

C-2 AND LAKE RACER- Great ideas.I am also sending a letter documenting their refusal to let me launch my boat and the way i have seen them treat people with their yelling and screaming tirades for no apparent reason.

[Havasu Cig]

Anybody that's been out there lately know if they are still letting Gibson launch his MTI?

[LakeRacer]

C-2 AND LAKE RACER- Great ideas.I am also sending a letter documenting their refusal to let me launch my boat and the way i have seen them treat people with their yelling and screaming tirades for no apparent reason.
Thanks Gary.
Well I'm glad to see that our campaign is picking up a little steam. But it isn't enough until every one of you sends a letter to the State Land Dept.
Sherpa,
As stated by C2 previously...the marina is already willing to lose our business by the very fact that they don't want us to launch there. If all you do is choose not to launch there you aren't denying them any money. They have already conceded that point. And guess what? They win without us even putting up a fight. I'm not going to give up that easy.

[TCHB]

Keep this thing going and maybe Jeff and his ways will be gone sooner.

[SpectraJoel]

to the top
:shift: :rollside: :)

[Keithb87]

I sent my letter yesterday, and have told all the peeps that I take boating that they MUST send a letter themselves if they want to continue to boat with us...
Thanks for the call Lake Racer... Although I have yet to go to Havasu, I feel that this is a valid issue, and anything I can do to add to the plus side of the "revoultion" I will gladly do my part...
Still in the process of getting my boat and the others that I have intrest in finished and to the water..
Keith ( hoping to get to Havasu by next year) B87

[Huckleberry]

TTT Again!

[LakeRacer]

Waiting for Essex502 report.

[Essex502]

Waiting for Essex502 report.
We launched the boat with the HP525 with the new Rex Marine mufflers in place....no one said anything to him nor me with my unmuffled 502 though the exhaust on mine exit under the water at idle. Mine measures 82 decibels on the A scale at idle 1 meter off of the transome 4' above the water line. Well in compliance with the new CA laws as well as AZ's. The HP525 with exhaust above the waterline measured 88 db with the same test. We launched both days fairly early.
No problems with the staff.
There is a sign at the front gate that states beginning in September they will be enforcing THEIR rules.
We even idled the boat right up to the courtesy dock in front of the store and I made a big deal of taking the noise meter out and testing the boat while leaving it idle...maybe the manager was watching from inside and took note that I was serious....who knows...
PS...the Rex Marine silencers REALLY, REALLY work well...no loss in performance and dramatic lowering of the noise - from 96 official db to 88 db - all A scale per the CA standard that will be going into effect Jan 1. No problem at all (at least at idle) in passing the Arizona test.

[LakeRacer]

We launched the boat with the HP525 with the new Rex Marine mufflers in place....no one said anything to him nor me with my unmuffled 502 though the exhaust on mine exit under the water at idle. Mine measures 82 decibels on the A scale at idle 1 meter off of the transome 4' above the water line. Well in compliance with the new CA laws as well as AZ's. The HP525 with exhaust above the waterline measured 88 db with the same test. We launched both days fairly early.
No problems with the staff.
There is a sign at the front gate that states beginning in September they will be enforcing THEIR rules.
We even idled the boat right up to the courtesy dock in front of the store and I made a big deal of taking the noise meter out and testing the boat while leaving it idle...maybe the manager was watching from inside and took note that I was serious....who knows...
PS...the Rex Marine silencers REALLY, REALLY work well...no loss in performance and dramatic lowering of the noise - from 96 official db to 88 db - all A scale per the CA standard that will be going into effect Jan 1. No problem at all (at least at idle) in passing the Arizona test.
They might be waiting for Sept. 15th; and then watch out.

[91nordic29]

i have seen this fellow on channel 3 news get some fine results. would someone be willing to call/talk to them about this issue?
Gary Harper, (channel) 3 On Your Side (http://www.azfamily.com/news/3oys/)

[91nordic29]

bump
(7 letters, What in the World?)

[diggler]

They might be waiting for Sept. 15th; and then watch out.
What happens on Sept. 15th?

[Essex502]

What happens on Sept. 15th?
There is a sign at the entrance to the Marina (guard shack where you have to pay your $10 to launch) that states September 15th they will start enforcing the noise limits they have arbitrarily determined are too loud.

[LakeRacer]

i have seen this fellow on channel 3 news get some fine results. would someone be willing to call/talk to them about this issue?
Gary Harper, (channel) 3 On Your Side (http://www.azfamily.com/news/3oys/)
Thanks Cindy! That could be another route we could pursue.

[91nordic29]

he does alot of contacting involved parties and such which would be alot easier (and maybe more productive) than us. companies seem to re-think things when they are in the spotlight especially if it is in an unfavorable light. :cool:

[91nordic29]

i have seen this fellow on channel 3 news get some fine results. would someone be willing to call/talk to them about this issue?
Gary Harper, (channel) 3 On Your Side (http://www.azfamily.com/news/3oys/)
any volunteers?

[SpectraJoel]

What ever happened to David Horrowitz and his show "FIGHT BACK"????

[LakeRacer]

any volunteers?
I'll do it.

[Debbolas]

I don't get this place. They let our friends boat in (very loud Kachina ) and then gave SummerLove a hard time about his boat?!?!
Are they targeting Hot Boat Forum members? :confused:

[playdeep]

I don't get this place. They let our friends boat in (very loud Kachina ) and then gave SummerLove a hard time about his boat?!?!
Are they targeting Hot Boat Forum members? :confused:
Summerlove's dust up with the Marina this past weekend,had nothing to do with noise...

[Essex502]

Summerlove's dust up with the Marina this past weekend,had nothing to do with noise...
What happened with Rick this weekend? We talked to him in Steamboat on Saturday and he didn't say anything...??

[OGShocker]

What happened with Rick this weekend? We talked to him in Steamboat on Saturday and he didn't say anything...??
He has been very snippy since he made the bet with CarbonMarine and me. Probably blew a gasket on the poor manager of the Marina :wink:

[Havasu Cig]

Back to the top.

[Essex502]

Back to the top.
ditto ....

[JustMVG]

David Horowitz "Fought back "too well and some sponsors started pulling ads and that was the end of that, still does a radio show but is not as radical as he once was, My question is why don't the manufacturers of the boats , the newer/newest boats do this same test have it certified and then give a copy to the LEO if he tries to give you a tricket, and isn't it partially the MFG's of both boat and engine to make an attempt to keep the boats quiet? if i am going to spend 100 to 200k for a boat i can't use, then why buy.
I did notice at the Huntington Race that the locals have no problem putting up with the noise in the marina area once a year but if there was a sudden invasion everyweekend of hot boats there'd be hell to pay, maybe thats whats going on at the marina in havasu. The oldies are a complainin', i'd like to get a re-read of this noise law is ths noise test at idle from 50 ft and thats it, because there is noway in hell your going to tell me that the same boat at WOT is going to even come close to the laws level. So if an LE boat goes by me at full throttle i can give him a citizens arrest ticket if i have a DB meter? MVG

[Essex502]

I did notice at the Huntington Race that the locals have no problem putting up with the noise in the marina area once a year but if there was a sudden invasion everyweekend of hot boats there'd be hell to pay, maybe thats whats going on at the marina in havasu. The oldies are a complainin', i'd like to get a re-read of this noise law is ths noise test at idle from 50 ft and thats it, because there is noway in hell your going to tell me that the same boat at WOT is going to even come close to the laws level. So if an LE boat goes by me at full throttle i can give him a citizens arrest ticket if i have a DB meter? MVG
The Arizona noise law is 86 db-A at 50' any throttle position. It is performed per the SAE J34 test procedure. At idle, any boat with over the transom headers or through transom exhaust (exiting above the waterline) that do not have inserts/silencers/mufflers will fail at a close distance but might pass at 50' (most stock motors will actually). The Marina is saying they are going to ignore the AZ law and decide on what boat meets their 86 db requirement right behind the boat. What does that actually mean? In the water, tied to a dock, their personnel with trained and calibrated ears? I have performed a number of informal tests with a digital noise meter and a digital laser range finder to determine distance and let me tell you...even slight changes in position can affect the sound levels.
Our main gripe is that the Marina is potentially NOT allowing perfectly legal boats (at idle) to launch under their new subjective rules.
Boat manufacturers have always had a stake in the noise issues but have chosen to ignore them. Some are even ignorant of the new California law that goes into effect January 1, 2005 that REQUIRES a builder to not sell a boat that fails to meet the new standard tests. I'd doubt that any performance boat buyers have even asked their builder or the seller of the boat whether it meets noise laws or not. Did you? I didn't.

[JustMVG]

I bought mine used a couple of years ago when the noise limit wasn't an issue, but when i hit the lottery i will ask the MFG of my new boat all the pertinant questions, i am not plunking down a bunch of cash to look at my boat on the trailer in front of the house, thanks Essex it clears up alot of other questions i was going to ask... Mike VG

[AzDon]

I really like the video camera idea.... maybe organize a mass attempt at paying and launching with about ten videocams going!!
Also, I have a couple of suggestions regarding the sample letters i've seen so far.... both letters complained about the "owner" of the marina rather than the manager. The State is the owner and Mr. McCulloch holds a lease. The bad Guy is the manager! Both letters also employed a backwards assertion that the State "has a contract with the marina...this implies that the marina is of higher importance.... these are just little things but they really have an impact on overall effectiveness of a letter.
I do like that both letters suggest that the writers will vacation somewhere other than Havasu, but even better would be to suggest that they'd vacation in another state.
Copies of all letters should also be sent to the tourism bureau, asb well.
Also, you should all know that Today's News Herald prints almost all "Letters to the Editor" it receives and these letters alone have often been enough to fuel controversy around here! Be advised though that the tone should be more about the Manager's behavior, his personal mission to enforce arbitrary standards, and his mission to drive away tourist dollars. Your desire to make excessive noise will not play well with the locals!
I applaud C-2 and LakeRacer for investigating the legalities and working from the government lease end towards changing the manager's attitude.

[Havasu_Dreamin]

I think what will happen is that the builders will eventually be selling boats with silencers/mufflers as standard equipment. Obviously this cost will be passed onto the consumer. However, this will only happen if the state begins to crack down on the builders and I really question whether or not the state will enforce that part of the law.

[nodigg]

Just curious. The law does not allow systems such as "Silent Choice" to be used. Does the Marina seudo LEO allow use of "Silent Choice" type noise restrictors?? Are they about shutting down certain types of boats or are they only concerned about the noise levels in their marina? If it is ONLY about noise then Silent Choice would seem to be okay with them?? (I only lauch at Windsor. Closer to the house, no dirt, easier solo launching and no narrow channel to escape through), but I am curious.............

[Havasu_Dreamin]

I would suspect it is only noise with the marina.

[91nordic29]

Our main gripe is that the Marina is potentially NOT allowing perfectly legal boats (at idle) to launch under their new subjective rules.
plus...it isnt the marina's job nor do they have the authotity to enforce noise (or any other) laws. it's job is to provide launching services to the "public" (as stated in the lease with the state).

[nodigg]

Given the lower cost of Windsor, (Annual pass), why is it that so many prefer the Marina anyway?

[Havasu_Dreamin]

The marina is the best facility. Protected ramp and far less rentals than Windsor.

[Havasu_Dreamin]

AzDon, we normally don't agree, but well said.

[Rexone]

I think what will happen is that the builders will eventually be selling boats with silencers/mufflers as standard equipment. Obviously this cost will be passed onto the consumer. However, this will only happen if the state begins to crack down on the builders and I really question whether or not the state will enforce that part of the law.
HD the builders will be forced to comply with the law by market pressure IMO. Imagine customers getting $300 noise tickets with their brand new "illegal" boats come 2005. A little of that backlash will be far more effective than the state in causing them to become compliant. Most the larger builders are aware and are preparing. Some have already gone in the silencer direction on current models, which is just a big plus for the buyers of the boats. 04 and prior models that aren't noise compliant (which is the majority) will fall back on the boat owners to become compliant.
There are some builders though that seem oblivious or at least unconcerned about the Jan 05 requirement at this point. My guess is whatever builders choose to ignore or not comply will see a dramatic impact on sales even if the state doesn't enforce the issue with them over the course of 2005. No one will want to buy a boat they can't legally run as soon as the word gets out and the tickets start being written. And I'm guessing a builder could be forced legally to take a boat back if pressed, if it was sold in an illegal condition (not noise compliant). This is uncharted water so to speak but that's my guess on what will or could happen.
It does remain to be seen at what level local LE will enforce the new test standards. But at busy places like Havasu, noise is already an issue with LE, not to mention the marina guy. My guess is there will be enforcement at locales such as Havasu that see alot of traffic.
Remember the new test standards (noise wise) are not that much tougher than the old J34. The big difference is the ease of testing for LE due to very specific test procedures (in the case of J2005). The other big difference is the illegality of selling an uncompliant boat come Jan 1.

[OGShocker]

HD the builders will be forced to comply with the law by market pressure IMO. Imagine customers getting $300 noise tickets with their brand new "illegal" boats come 2005. A little of that backlash will be far more effective than the state in causing them to become compliant. Most the larger builders are aware and are preparing. Some have already gone in the silencer direction on current models, which is just a big plus for the buyers of the boats. 04 and prior models that aren't noise compliant (which is the majority) will fall back on the boat owners to become compliant.
There are some builders though that seem oblivious or at least unconcerned about the Jan 05 requirement at this point. My guess is whatever builders choose to ignore or not comply will see a dramatic impact on sales even if the state doesn't enforce the issue with them over the course of 2005. No one will want to buy a boat they can't legally run as soon as the word gets out and the tickets start being written. And I'm guessing a builder could be forced legally to take a boat back if pressed, if it was sold in an illegal condition (not noise compliant). This is uncharted water so to speak but that's my guess on what will or could happen.
It does remain to be seen at what level local LE will enforce the new test standards. But at busy places like Havasu, noise is already an issue with LE, not to mention the marina guy. My guess is there will be enforcement at locales such as Havasu that see alot of traffic.
Remember the new test standards (noise wise) are not that much tougher than the old J34. The big difference is the ease of testing for LE due to very specific test procedures (in the case of J2005). The other big difference is the illegality of selling an uncompliant boat come Jan 1.
Hey Mike,
Where can I buy a good set of mufflers? :wink:

[91nordic29]

is a noise ticket in arizona really 300 beans? :hammer2:

[Essex502]

I really like the video camera idea.... maybe organize a mass attempt at paying and launching with about ten videocams going!!
Also, I have a couple of suggestions regarding the sample letters i've seen so far.... both letters complained about the "owner" of the marina rather than the manager. The State is the owner and Mr. McCulloch holds a lease. The bad Guy is the manager! Both letters also employed a backwards assertion that the State "has a contract with the marina...this implies that the marina is of higher importance.... these are just little things but they really have an impact on overall effectiveness of a letter.
I do like that both letters suggest that the writers will vacation somewhere other than Havasu, but even better would be to suggest that they'd vacation in another state.
Copies of all letters should also be sent to the tourism bureau, asb well.
Also, you should all know that Today's News Herald prints almost all "Letters to the Editor" it receives and these letters alone have often been enough to fuel controversy around here! Be advised though that the tone should be more about the Manager's behavior, his personal mission to enforce arbitrary standards, and his mission to drive away tourist dollars. Your desire to make excessive noise will not play well with the locals!
I applaud C-2 and LakeRacer for investigating the legalities and working from the government lease end towards changing the manager's attitude.
I'm amazed to say it but I agree with the points made.

[Havasu_Dreamin]

HD the builders will be forced to comply with the law by market pressure IMO. Imagine customers getting $300 noise tickets with their brand new "illegal" boats come 2005. A little of that backlash will be far more effective than the state in causing them to become compliant. Most the larger builders are aware and are preparing. Some have already gone in the silencer direction on current models, which is just a big plus for the buyers of the boats. 04 and prior models that aren't noise compliant (which is the majority) will fall back on the boat owners to become compliant.
There are some builders though that seem oblivious or at least unconcerned about the Jan 05 requirement at this point. My guess is whatever builders choose to ignore or not comply will see a dramatic impact on sales even if the state doesn't enforce the issue with them over the course of 2005. No one will want to buy a boat they can't legally run as soon as the word gets out and the tickets start being written. And I'm guessing a builder could be forced legally to take a boat back if pressed, if it was sold in an illegal condition (not noise compliant). This is uncharted water so to speak but that's my guess on what will or could happen.
It does remain to be seen at what level local LE will enforce the new test standards. But at busy places like Havasu, noise is already an issue with LE, not to mention the marina guy. My guess is there will be enforcement at locales such as Havasu that see alot of traffic.
Remember the new test standards (noise wise) are not that much tougher than the old J34. The big difference is the ease of testing for LE due to very specific test procedures (in the case of J2005). The other big difference is the illegality of selling an uncompliant boat come Jan 1.
I think you're right Mike. Fortunately I don't need to worry about it anymore thanks to the littel run we did last week. :cool:

[Essex502]

I just heard an interesting rumour - yet to be substantiated...The Marina managment is monitoring the HB Forums! Can you all believe that?

[Keithb87]

I just heard an interesting rumour - yet to be substantiated...The Marina managment is monitoring the HB Forums! Can you all believe that?
The nerve of some people... :burningm:
Good, Let them monitor... Heck let them stop lurking and post something in their defense.

[Havasu_Dreamin]

I just heard an interesting rumour - yet to be substantiated...The Marina managment is monitoring the HB Forums! Can you all believe that?
Let them monitor the forums. Hopefully they will see that the beef is not with the law but with the arbitrary nature with which they plan to try and enforce their version of it and with the general treatment of some people by the manager.

[Havasu Cig]

Just curious. The law does not allow systems such as "Silent Choice" to be used. Does the Marina seudo LEO allow use of "Silent Choice" type noise restrictors?? Are they about shutting down certain types of boats or are they only concerned about the noise levels in their marina? If it is ONLY about noise then Silent Choice would seem to be okay with them?? (I only lauch at Windsor. Closer to the house, no dirt, easier solo launching and no narrow channel to escape through), but I am curious.............
With their rule that nobody over 32' launch (unless you are a cruiser which I seen them let launch) they are discriminating against certait types of boats. The few times I was allowed to launch there in our Cig I was warned about noise before I even started it just because the way the boat looks. I had to tell them it has mufflers.

[Havasu Cig]

Bigkatboat (sp) was a member that was on here a while ago that was defending Jeff. He probably has something to do with it. I can imagine Jeff's blood pressure rising reading these post. :cry:

[Essex502]

I hope it rises enough to get his attention.

[Essex502]

It is confirmed ... the Marina has copies of our posts here on Hot Boat. They confronted one of our members - will remain nameless and please don't speculate - with the posts.

[PHX ATC]

Ooooh, they have copies.
What are they going to do? Roll them up and beat us about our head and neck with them?
Personally, I've never had any problems with the people there. Then again, I haven't ever seen anyone other than the guy that takes your money and the guy that directs you to a lane. Pretty efficient, IMO.

[Keith E. Sayre]

I need to throw in there that the guy that directs traffic into the proper lanes
named Tony is a heck of a good person. You've all seen him in the channel
with his wife over the years. He's also Kelly's dad from Savage Marine.
He's great people, and I believe has Greek background? We call him the
mayor of the channel--always the guy to break up fights and keep the
peace in the channel. Super dark tan, 60 yrs old. Nice guy so be nice
to him. He doesn't make the rules!
Keith Sayre
Conquest Boats

[Havasu_Dreamin]

Keith, the gentleman you describe has not been directing teh traffic on the ramp the last tripos we've made out there. He's been running the courtesy cart. Everything else you say about him is true, he's a great guy. The current guy directing traffic was not exactly a nice person when we launched three weeks ago, no problems with the new guy since though.

[TCHB]

Keep the cash out of the Marina!!! Why would anyone put up with this type of treatment. Maybe we should have Starbucks buy the dam place and show the management group what a real buisness can do!

[Essex502]

Echo what HD says about the new guy directing traffic at the ramp. Kind of a latin looking guy with a very short hair cut or shaved head. Younger guy, pretty good size. He's the one who told me to my face that there was a "new LAW in Arizona that went into effect on Memorial Day (yes his exact words as I repeated questioned him about it) that restricted boats to 86 db(A) right next to the boat. I almost couldn't contain my disbelief at his lack of knowledge. That same weekend was when Havasu Dreamin' was hassled for noise.
Tony, on the other hand, I've never met or spoken with although I've heard some negative comments about a "Tony" at the Marina. Maybe there are two Tonys. I'll leave it at that.

[LakeRacer]

It is confirmed ... the Marina has copies of our posts here on Hot Boat. They confronted one of our members - will remain nameless and please don't speculate - with the posts.
I guess I'm a marked man. :lightsabe

[Essex502]

I guess I'm a marked man. :lightsabe
Could be. :frown: Hopefully you won't be recognized!

[PHX ATC]

Keep the cash out of the Marina!!! Why would anyone put up with this type of treatment. Maybe we should have Starbucks buy the dam place and show the management group what a real buisness can do!
We wouldn't get the boat out of the little channel there by the ramp if Starbucks opened up shop there. I can see it now, my wife backs the boat off the trailer, fires her up, idles to the Starbucks shop and sits for the day...meanwhile, I'm trying to flag anybody down for a ride. :mix:

[Essex502]

Frankly, I'd like to see the Marina run like Nordstroms. They know customer service. All I see at Starbucks (the infrequent times I go in there) is a long line and slow service.

[Essex502]

For those of you who haven't read the thread yet....back to the top

[Keithb87]

TTT ...... again

[Essex502]

thats fine that they read the forum, are we suppose to back down because they can read, to bad they don't comprehend what equal treatment of all boaters is, has any every looked in the marina slips and seen the size of some of those boats in there, funny how some of them haven't moved in a zillion years, but ohh, they must be very quiet boats / yachts ( like your in Monaco ) the whole problem is the marina has a problem with the ramp manager / supervisor, what ever he is,and his boss won't deal with him to stop harrassing boaters, he does not have the authority or equipment to say who is loud and who is not, nor can he say who can launch and who cannot, he is just a worker that believes he has cart blanche, as long as people use the facility his boss won't do or say anything to him. maybe he could take some human resource training or anger management courses.
It's sad this thread is dropping off the radar.

[Havasu Cig]

I think most people on the board are not affected (yet) so they don't care. Kind of like Nazi Germany "they were not coming for me so I looked the other way" :rolleyes:

[LakeRacer]

I think most people on the board are not affected (yet) so they don't care. Kind of like Nazi Germany "they were not coming for me so I looked the other way" :rolleyes:
Havasu Cig, check your pm's

[Havasu_Dreamin]

I think there really is not too muich more we can say about this issue other than write letters! That would explain why this is falling off of the radar.

[Debbolas]

I WAS thinking about buying a house in Havasu.....(well someday) Now I will just continue to camp/launch at Park Moabi. If we buy, it will probably be in Needles because the marina is the nicest/safetest place to launch...but who wants to put up with all their BS. So how much money did Havasu just loose? Maybe they dont' care.
Boat Noise:
Our friends have the 30ft Kachina and it is much louder than ours just because of the swim step.
The Nautical isn't so bad to launch at.
I will NEVER launch at site 6 again.
Never tried Windsor.

[Essex502]

I WAS thinking about buying a house in Havasu.....(well someday) Now I will just continue to camp/launch at Park Moabi. If we buy, it will probably be in Needles because the marina is the nicest/safetest place to launch...but who wants to put up with all their BS. So how much money did Havasu just loose? Maybe they dont' care.
Boat Noise:
Our friends have the 30ft Kachina and it is much louder than ours just because of the swim step.
The Nautical isn't so bad to launch at.
I will NEVER launch at site 6 again.
Never tried Windsor.
Windsor is pretty exposed to the bay above the island and can be rough at times. Also, a lot of rental boats - especially the pontoons seem to launch there. Can make for some trying times.

[Havasu_Dreamin]

I WAS thinking about buying a house in Havasu.....<snip> So how much money did Havasu just loose?
With the way real estate is going over there, it does not matter. Someone else will build/buy the house you were going to.
Again, the issue is not the noise law but the way the marina thinks they can arbitraily enforce it in a way that is not consistent with the AZ law. That is the real problem. That is why letters need to be written to the State Land Department. What's truly brutal is that with the marina monitoring the boards, which is obviously their right to do so just as it is our right to complain about the treatment, is that when the State Land Department asks the current leasholder about these complaint letters they will almost assuredly say it is just an organized group of less than 100 peeople with personal grudges. And, sadly, the State Land Department will probably agree with them. But, that is n reason to not write a letter telling of your experiences.

[LakeRacer]

...complain about the treatment, is that when the State Land Department asks the current leasholder about these complaint letters they will almost assuredly say it is just an organized group of less than 100 peeople with personal grudges. And, sadly, the State Land Department will probably agree with them. But, that is n reason to not write a letter telling of your experiences.
Not if there is a pending lawsuit.

[phebus]

It sure would be nice if L.E. had check stations, and if you submitted to testing and passed, you would be given a sticker as proof that you complied.

[Havasu_Dreamin]

Not if there is a pending lawsuit.
Had not thought of that.

[Essex502]

Let's keep the pressure up by writing lots of letters. We need every board member that has had any difficulty with the Marina to write a letter.

[Debbolas]

I hate to sound lazy, but could we e-mail instead? :D

[LakeRacer]

I hate to sound lazy, but could we e-mail instead? :D
They don't have an email address posted on their website.
Arizona State Land Department
Operations Division
1616 W. Adams
Phoenix, AZ 85007
RE: Havasu Marina Inc
Lake Havasu City, AZ
Lease No. 32-99062

[Debbolas]

Ok, I will write a note... :wink:
Done :wink:

[Essex502]

Ok, I will write a note... :wink:
Done :wink:
Please do. All the letters and help we can get might get some attention and lead to a suitable resolution for all. Thanks in advance for your support!

[beer hunter]

It sure would be nice if L.E. had check stations, and if you submitted to testing and passed, you would be given a sticker as proof that you complied.
That's not a bad idea, maybe LE could do a simple compliance test in the mornings on Havasu between say, 7:00 and 9:00am on Saturday and Sundays.
I know the Coast Guard Auxiliary does something similar to this at the local ramps in my area; it's more of an educational thing than anything else :)

[havasuready]

I haven't actually tested my boat but I have a F-26 with a 572 and I put those shotgun looking IMCO silencers on it and the performance was not altered and it is a hell of alot quieter than my friends stock 496HO. I would reccomend those to anyone. It is one less reason they can screw with you!

[Havasu Cig]

Your boat will not pass the test even with the Gatlins. A friend has them in his Cig with Teague 1000's and it helped but not enough.

[Havasu_Dreamin]

We were at 96 db with the HP525. We installed a set of the Rex Power Silencers and we are now at 88 db per the CA law.
Oh, and BTTT

[bigkatboat]

I used to be a 'regular' in Parker, and before a "mobile" on the AZ. side we were always at "Riverland". I started in 1969 and in 1982 I was with a group of friends at Riverland. One of my 'bud's' had his 440 Mopar single carb boat in the water and had just made a pass, he was tying up as the "patrol boat" came up and told us: "This boat is too loud, and that boat (my 510/1471 runner bottom) better not be in the water when I come back by". "We have noise laws here and we are going to enforce them". Well, I built bigger boats and moved to Havasu, and the same problem has followed me here. We got a pontoon boat, so that we could tow the 'loud boats' out to "our own cove", but it seems as though the "noise police" are coming right after us. When this area was "out in no where", we did what we wanted, however this place is now "a city" and WE must bow down to all of the 'restrictions' of a 'civilized city'. This means that we follow the rules as they are 'enforced' or we move out to another place that is "out in nowhere", so we can run our loud boats in PEACE. I feel we can go fast, be safe, and do it with less noise. I think starting a fight is not the best way to begin, starting a program of information (laws, available mufflers, and ticket traps) will be to everyones benefit. I don't think the Marina, nor the Cops want any 'fights', they just have to follow the laws, just like we are going to do. Sooner or later.

[Essex502]

BKB...the Marina seems to want to be the noise police as well as the length police. The management is going beyond the law and attempting to enforce a standard stricter than the state law for boats. What we are asking is fair and equal treatment to the letter of the law - no more no less (though less would be fine, I'm sure, for some of the louder boats). The management has set itself on a pedestal above the law saying they can dictate the usage of a facility located on leased land from the state. This is what we take exception to - their continued harasment of those they don't "like" - i.e. performance boaters...BTW...they do like the performance boaters when they fill their tanks at the fuel dock.

[LakeRacer]

..... I feel we can go fast, be safe, and do it with less noise. I think starting a fight is not the best way to begin, starting a program of information (laws, available mufflers, and ticket traps) will be to everyones benefit. I don't think the Marina, nor the Cops want any 'fights', they just have to follow the laws, just like we are going to do. Sooner or later.
Yes, we can go fast, be safe and do it with less noise. But that is not the issue!. The issue is the marina's arbitrary, inconsistent and selective enforcement of policies that are in direct conflict with their concession contract with the State of Arizona. Period. Spin it any way you like...you will not fool us.
Let me make one thing clear...we didn't pick this "fight." The marina did.

[Havasu Cig]

I echo what LR and E502 have said. BKB, your motives are suspicious to me because you have stuck up for the Marina and Jeff in the past.
Like was said, we want fair treatment for all boaters. I have had mufflers on my boat before most people cared but I can't launch because I am over the arbitrary length limit the Marina has put on boats that use their ramp.
I have seen other boat longer than mine launch and when I questioned them about it I was yelled at by Jeff and given BS reasons as to why they were allowed to launch and I was not.
I have also been told that the bigger boats draft to much water and the Marina needs to be dredged. First of all I was told this two years ago, and if this was the case why has the Marina not been dredged yet. And secondly the cruisers that they allow to launch and rent slips to weigh more that my performance boat.
The facts is they don't want certain types of boats or people at their ramp. Jeff told me that "people that own big boats are assholes". Nice statement coming from the manager of a business. If one of my employees ever talked to a customer that way they would be fired.
I plan on buying a pontoon boat for Havasu, but I still will do what I can to correct the problems at the Marina.

[NOTALENT]

Damn..I hate this crap..I agree there should be laws about certain things..but what f**cking right do they have to tell us how we build our boats, cars etc..as long as we dont endanger the lives of others..theres no freakin big deal. Waisting time and money on such a petty issue. ITs ridicoulus. So old people are complaining..because it's to loud..we dont make laws or do anything about them driving unsafley or too slow...and sooo..many other issues. This is everyones world...Damn It..

[HM]

The Noise laws are NUISANCE laws, not safety laws. At what dB does it become unsafe? The arbitrary and non-authorized enforcement of nuisance laws (without proper testing) is the detail that will break the Marina. The fact that they have an exclusive on Marina rights and on Public Land does not allow them to have the normal business rights. If they are illegally trying to enforce laws, arbitrarily specifically on large boats, they are violating laws to a harsher degree than those who violate a NUISANCE law - they would be considered vigilante.
BKB - why is "Jeff" and the marina not checking for the rest of the safety gear? Life vests, fire extinguishers, throwables, horns, proper lighting, proper venitilation, enforcing minimum ventilation prior to start, not allowing boats without proper Coast Guard approved starters, carberators, alternators, and etc? These are truly safety issues - he claims to have safety in mind - bullshit - you know Jeff does not care about "safety".
I don't go to Havasu much, and if I do, I use other facilities. But I can tell you I will not gas up at the Marina. Not a big loss for them, only 70 gallons at a time. But I will help to relegate the Marina Nazi as best I can. I have sent a letter and will offer any and all resources I can to knock the Marina Nazi off of his pedestal. Anyone who not only is a hater, but is so rude to people, needs to face the consequences of his behavior.
Has anyone measure the dB of his tyrate profanity episodes?