View Full Version : Not the first Magic to be duplicated, just the fastest!
Well after almost a week and many people calling me asking why the picture of my boat was down and my excitement gone I guess I should post my story. I didnÂ’t mean to hype it too much as it is simple, however important. Thanks for all the support and help with my research on my new boat search. I have a couple in mind and will keep all my friends updated.
I commissioned Magic/Sleekcraft/Power Marine to build me a new custom 28Â’ Magic Cat. In discussing the deal, I took a week of every free moment to come up with a custom design, one that I havenÂ’t seen on the water. I am not an artist so I hired Randy at Rock & Roll Customs in Fullerton, CA, to complete my thoughts and bring it all together. He did an AWESOME job for not a whole lot of money. The design was perfect! I suggest you talk to him if you want a cool design, unless you want to use it on a Magic as he might not do it for you. Tell him I sent you.
I handed the design over to Magic to begin the build of my boat. They loved it which encouraged me even more. They knew how hard I had worked on the design and how bad I wanted to be as original as possible. We even discussed that I did not want to have it copied or become an OEM design. They made me comfortable it would not happen.
Exactly one week after the boat came out of the mold, I was able to get out there to see it and was not at all happy with the quality of the gel coat. The design was misaligned on the port side by half an inch from bow to stern. They told me that the rub rail would hide the blemishes which should be true to some extent. And strange color blends were painted along the seam causing a strange continuation of color from top to bottom. The top an bottom of the rear which was to be all blue didnÂ’t match, however that may have been due to the pearl in the paint and the angle of viewing.
On Sunday, eight days after removal from the mold, we came down with breakfast for everyone to put the rub rail to the boat and give the go ahead on the work. The rub rail hid probably half of the lines due to their angle of descent but the other half was completely off. They offered to use outside paint to fix it, a second rate patch in my opinion. Manufacturers since have told me that they only repair faulty gel coat with gel coat.. I have no idea what the outcome would have been here. I probably would have consulted all my friends here and on other boards then gone back to Magic to discuss.
Well on to the meat. On the walk to our boat to place the rub rail, there was a boat in the very next stall identical to mine. I donÂ’t know when it was made but it very well could have been in their second cat mold during the same week as mine. At the least, it was in a mold the same day my boat came out. The boat was red and grey not blue and grey like mine, and two small features were shortened maybe a foot, however it was at least 95% of my design!
Most of the employees present, including the owner of Magic/Sleekcraft/Power Marine, said that it was nothing like my boat due to the color and adjustments. Trust me, the adjustments were minor. After much argument from us and many excuses from them the owner gave us two options; take back our down payment, or build another boat and that he would not guarantee that he wouldn’t copy that one also. I won’t quote as I don’t know the exact words, but that was close enough. He continued with the fact that he didn’t care that we were unhappy, all he cared about was, “getting the order, taking your $20,000 and building the boat.” Not what I was looking for in a boat builder. There were a few more excuses passed around that I won’t go into but the most important thing is that in his words he WILL COPY YOUR CUSTOM DESIGN.
Hours later an employee called wanting to save the deal, stating that he would pay for my design, sign something saying they would not duplicate my next boat, and hold my 525 and build me another boat. Nice, but too little too late in my book. Whether right or wrong, I chose to demand more. I had been dying for a Magic for years, worked hard on designing, budgeting, planning, and insuring my boat. I even wished to represent the company at boat shows as I was sure they were the company deserving my loyalty. I was attached to this boat like no other.
I sent my demand letter to Magic with a few requests. First was that the owner himself call me and tell me how he really does business. Second was that the owner, not the employee, sign the agreement to not to duplicate my next design which was negotiable as I know that duplication is vague. Third was a discount on my next boat; IÂ’m sure a reasonable value to some but not to others. Considering how much money they stood to make on my design on two boats AND my next boat, I felt I was due. I was completely disappointed and mistreated and needed to know that they wanted me as a part of their family.
I was very surprised to get a call from the owner as my industry contacts all said he would never do so. His only explanation was that we “didn’t click”. I guess that someone like me who has loved the company for years, greatly desires to own their boat, yet for such a high-ticket item, demands unmatched quality, incredible service and integrity, and asks not to get jerked around and lied to, isn’t what they are looking for in a customer. The only thing besides that is an ignorant and passive buyer who does not care for brand loyalty or has too much money to put a lot of effort into his purchase. No offense to current Magic/Sleek owners. In his call he did offer the world to me on a platter, short of another boat. A smart move considering he knew I would talk.
Yesterday, the owner called me again thinking that our last phone call had resolved everything and that if I was going to start “trash talk” I should tell it “to his face”. Funny thing was that in the first phone call, I told him (to his face) I appreciated the call but questioned his sincerity and that I would be sharing my experience. What agreement did he hear?
I enjoyed my relationship with Magic and its employees up until the deception, and I believe they “clicked” with me. I am very sorry that I don’t fit into the Magic family.
Again, I donÂ’t want to offend anyone nor sound like a crazy man. I just want people to be aware of what happens out there. If you are having a boat built, protect yourself no matter what trust you have in a company. Demand quality, service and integrity up front so you can get out if it goes awry. DonÂ’t expect perfection, demand it. If we all did so, the companies who did not deliver, would cease to exist.
This may be a minor issue to some. And if I had caught the duplicate boat after I had taken delivery, who knows how I would have handled it. I had too much pride to continue my relationship unless they stepped up and admitted their wrongdoing with gusto.
I have since researched and talked to several Magic owners who have had their designs ripped off. Most had not known that it happened to others. After the many stories I have heard during the many phone calls I have received, I do not trust Magic.
IÂ’m shopping again and trying to find a company that deserves my loyalty, one that I can yell about, defend when needed, wear their gear, and show off their work in poker runs and other events. I want a family, not a guy who wants to take my money to pay his growing debt. IÂ’ll keep you updated on my progress.
Since I have to go one better now, and fit it into the budget, might be a while before I have another in the mold. Eliminator might just be the ticket. Then again Dave at DCB just called and gave me some great ideas. I have heard incredible things about DaveÂ’s service and quality.
I was dying for this boat. I wish they would have just told me it looked cool and asked if they could copy it. I would have been a lot more receptive.
My five year old son, Jarod, just recited what he learned in TaeKwonDo. Integrity means “Do the right thing even when no one is watching.” Magic/Sleek/Power Marine, you have a thing or two to learn from my son.
Forgive me if you see this post on the other boards I frequent. And if you decide to visit the Magic/Sleek Demo Dayz, make sure you ask about their design duplication policy. I would love to hear that I made a difference.
Bummer, I remember you telling me about how pumped you were to be getting a Magic.
Sorry to hear the bad news. :frown: :frown:
hoolign
08-05-2004, 10:47 PM
I feel for you in your dilema, should I decide to spend my time (and money) to create somthing that is 100% mine, I will be leary of those who reach for my wallet(more than I already am) I wish you luck in finding a manufacturer that let you take your credit where it is due ! good luck! and sorry to hear about the Magic dilema!
Toomstone
08-05-2004, 10:49 PM
sorry to hear about your problem. i took my design from another boat changed a few lines and added some colors. i hope that magic will never completely duplicate my design. sorry that you were allowed to walk so angry so easily. if these boat companies weren't making so many boats right now, they probably would have done everything they could have to help you. i think they just know they can sell that boat no matter what. i heard from a friend that his buddy went to conquest complaining about something on his deckboat being built and they gave him his 1000 dollar payment to be in line to be built and told him to leave. i was told he was kinda being out of hand. but the boat companies out in havasu seem constantly busy.i saw three identical boats when i got my amp fixed about 2 or 3 weeks ago. id like to see a picture of what your boat would have been. sorry about your situation
toomstone
Daytona100
08-05-2004, 10:50 PM
Talk to Dan at ELIMINATOR had a great experiance dealing with them.Very friendly and on the ball. Highly recommended.
Thanks guys. I hope this wasn't a let down. I didn't mean to pitch it to you guys.
I understand duplication happens. And if someone saw my boat on the water took a picture and wanted one just like it, I have no power no matter how I feel. You just put up with that.
Luckily I had the power this time to walk. If one person learns from what I have gone through, it was all worth it. And honestly, I have three friends with Magics that will not return or refer and a guy who, when I was all for Magic, was on his way in to buy a 34' Cat. They are now looking elsewhere.
If you want a Magic, please just ask them what their design duplication policy is. If they hear it more than once, I will have made an impact.
RiverToysJas
08-05-2004, 10:57 PM
May I suggest LaveyCraft, they appreciate their customers!!! ;) :D
RTJas :D
Toomstone
08-05-2004, 10:58 PM
cj do you have any pictures of you design???
Talk to Dan at ELIMINATOR had a great experiance dealing with them.Very friendly and on the ball. Highly recommended.
Thanks for that tip. Actually I just talked to BOB at Eliminator and if I can massage the budget around a 28' Daytona with twin 496HO, that will probably be my boat. Nothing set in stone yet.
Also, Dave at DCB just called me and he had given me a few ideas. I hear from several trusted friends that DCB has unmatched service and integrity. Dave seems pretty cool. I have to get down there and visit him.
I saw one boat that tells it all, "Options Open". And I should probably name my new boat "Plan B" so if anybody asks . . .
Jason, I love your Lavey, and my friends as well. I am not so keen on their cat and if I got a V, it would have to be bigger and woudn't fit in my garage in Havasu.
Toomstone, make sure you call my insurance contact on Monday. The M Cat was going to cost me $1,850 per year!!
unleashed
08-05-2004, 11:01 PM
Unfortunatly many Boat mfg. will do anything to get a boat order including compying someones design. It happens all the time. Someone walks into the mfg. and says "Hey I want my boat just like that one you have in the mold there, except different colors." Ofcourse what do you think the salesman is going to say? "Yeah Im sure we could do something just like it for you now sign on the dotted line." Thats life in the boat biz. my freind. Im glad you walked away from the deal though. Goodluck with your next possible purchase. There are no scrupples in this industry. Everyone copies everyone. To bad you didnt have the dough as paint would be the way to go if you didnt want anyone copying you for a year or two.
Deano
Unleashedclothing (http://www.unleashedclothing.com) :devil:
You are right Unleashed! Everything gets copied. I just hoped it wouldn't be on the water on the same day I was. Thought I could be cool for maybe a month or so. Had they just closed that garage!
You've been doing something right. Seen your logo a bunch of times on trucks and a probably your boat.
See you around! I'll say hi next time.
Toomstone
08-05-2004, 11:07 PM
Jason, I love your Lavey, and my friends as well. I am not so keen on their cat and if I got a V, it would have to be bigger and woudn't fit in my garage in Havasu.
Toomstone, make sure you call my insurance contact on Monday. The M Cat was going to cost me $1,850 per year!!
cj i have the magic deckboat.... so when the insurance hears deckboat its alot less. i guess it doesnt matter if it has a cat bottom if its a deckboat. :rolleyes: :D
If I were you i'd check out shockwave. So far i've had a great experience with them building my 29ft. I did my own engine and drive and they have worked with me on every detail. Talk to barry. I looked at the eliminator and with them cash was king. Kinda turned me off a little. If you want to build a boat with a company that truely treats you like family, Talk to barry @ shockwave. Good luck.
Good for you! Yep the deck costs less. I talked to Progressive and they asked specifically if it was the Cat or Deck. They have it on the list. They would insure the Deck. Interesting how a deck with same power, same hull, same basic weight isn't as much risk.
Toomstone
08-05-2004, 11:14 PM
Good for you! Yep the deck costs less. I talked to Progressive and they asked specifically if it was the Cat or Deck. They have it on the list. They would insure the Deck. Interesting how a deck with same power, same hull, same basic weight isn't as much risk.
made no sense to me either. but it sure made me happy :D
So . . . I didn't sound like a lunatic with my story, right? :confused:
unleashed
08-05-2004, 11:25 PM
Hey I sure would like to see the design that way I know who copied your boat! Oh and if Magic is lurking on this board...At least you guys could have waited a few months before copying his design..Geeeeeezzzzz. :mad:
Deano
Unleashedclothing (http://www.unleashedclothing.com) :devil:
Toomstone
08-05-2004, 11:25 PM
So . . . I didn't sound like a lunatic with my story, right? :confused:
nah...you told the story well without sounding like your about to kill someone. :eek!: :D
DOHARA
08-06-2004, 04:14 AM
CJ, Sorry to hear about your deal w/ magic. My buddy has gotten screwed by magic a couple times this year. First was when he was sold a 34', put his money down signed the deal. Our mutual friend is a display designer and they designed the graphics and took them to magic and they (magic) were stoked on graphics and began to proceed with the build. My buddy showed up on the date that the boat was supposed to be out of mold, no boat, not even started. At this time he's flippin out wondering what's going on. They tell him that the motor package the sales men sold him would not work with the 34' and that the sale was cancelled, and the sales guy was no longer employed by magic. They still had his down payment and a contract and they didn't stand up to it. They didn't even call him to let him know what was going on. He drove from ca to az to find this out.
So after arguing with owner and trying to work a deal on a motor package to get the 34' , the deal was like 30k higher then the original agreed price. Anyways to make a long story short he had to get the 28' magic deck boat. He is happy with boat but only after 15hrs on motor it lost a rod bearing idleing in the marina. Took it back to magic to get it warrantied, magic claims it's not mercury authorized to do motor work or repairs. So now he's dealing with this and mercury was trying to send him a short block only and that it would take up to a month to get it repaired by one of the other high end shops in havasu.
To top all this off he did see another boat magic built using his graphics with slight modifications of course when he took delivery of his boat. I have heard nothing but bad thing's about the owner and the sales guys. It sucks that these type of people are in buisiness and they get away with treating the customers like crap. The owner treated my buddy the same way with the take it or leave it attitude.
I know your dreams of owning a magic got ruined by this a-- hole but your probably better off with a DCB like you said. Good luck :D
Dano
Mandelon
08-06-2004, 05:25 AM
CJ it sounds like you would be the ideal Trident customer. The integrity, uality and ideals you are searching for, are one of the basic tenets of Wes's business plan.
http://www.tridentboats.com/
Windy
08-06-2004, 05:26 AM
That sucks CJ...Im sorry for you.
Sorry to hear about this. Especially since they told you it would not be duplicated. Some people do buisness right and some do it wrong. I hope Magic doesn't make any more promises to their " customers" that they can't keep. I hope they also paid you the money you spent on getting that guy to draw the gel scheme up for you.
One of the platter items the owner offered was the $200 for my payment to Rock & Roll Customs. I told him to keep it. Unlike him, it was not about the money to me.
I'll get my satisfaction when I blow by them and tell my friends I designed them. And hell, some guy is getting a blue and grey one with second rate gel coat. Can't wait to see how they fix it.
XTRM22
08-06-2004, 06:31 AM
So . . . I didn't sound like a lunatic with my story, right? :confused:
Actually you were much more eloquent then your usual lunatic self. ;)
Sorry about all this CJ, at least this gives us time to fix your your garage right. Good luck
Chuck
One of the platter items the owner offered was the $200 for my payment to Rock & Roll Customs. I told him to keep it. Unlike him, it was not about the money to me.
I'll get my satisfaction when I blow by them and tell my friends I designed them. And hell, some guy is getting a blue and grey one with second rate gel coat. Can't wait to see how they fix it.
Well in any buisness it's about the money...so I understand that. But a good buisness person doesn't make it "all" about the money. Good customer service goes a long long way. My cheap ass still woulda taken the money back for Rock & Roll Customs though :D
nodigg
08-06-2004, 06:33 AM
I have been drooling over the Magic 28 Deck for a couple of years now and have been close a couple of times to putting up the money and something always seems to to take the cash just before I put it on the table! Maybe I have been lucky? Maybe I'll keep my cheeeep Cheetah for a few more years, its not high end but Bob sure takes care of us! I have heard SO many stories like this about Magic. Too bad. Its a great boat but apparently not built by a great guy. :cry: And for the Apx. $120,000 mine is going to set me back, I may need more from the company building mine. I did not expect much from my $32,000 Cheetah but have been rewarded with SO many hours of pleasure. Hope you find the combination you are looking for soon.
Thanks Chuck! Have a great weekend! Sorry I couldn't get you off the water early. Actually we probably would not have got much done. Had my boat been delivered, I'm sure both of us would have been out there test driving it.
By the way, spoke to Dave. AWESOME guy, can't touch the price but had some good ideas. Nice of him to help me out. Might get down there soon for a visit.
twistedpair
08-06-2004, 06:35 AM
Unfortunatley, here in the southwest, builders of all kind are fat and happy. Doesn't matter if it as a custom home or a custom boat. They know if you disappear, there are 10 more people in line behind you, so some of them could care less about customer service. I will say however, that this is the first report that I have heard of a dissatisfied Magic buyer.
Remember people, there are always 2 sides to a story.
Nodigg, whatever you buy just ask the questions. If you do, my job is done. Enjoy your boat, and great luck buying a new one soon.
Remember people, there are always 2 sides to a story.
Yes there is. And I welcome Ron and Darrin to chime in. They know how accurate I have been. They might post a nice busness-like excuse, but can't much defend their actions short of saying, "happens all the time".
And I hope I have shown you that I did not want to attack. I just wanted to share my story.
Any quality "business man" would be happy to voice his opinion and debate the issue.
twistedpair
08-06-2004, 06:46 AM
CJ, I wasn't tying to say that what you related is not true. I was just trying to keep the lynch mob away for a while. People seem to love attacking builders lately. I hope yours is a isolated experience.
Debbolas
08-06-2004, 06:56 AM
I am sorry to hear of your boat troubles ( I posted this on the OP6board as well) We bought our boat from Kachina Power Boats in Arizona. We are completely satisified with our boat. One of the reasons we picked Kachina is they promised they wouldln't make another boat with our design. I didn't really appreciate that fact, until I went to the river and saw a lot of similar boats. Louie was awesome in helping us decide what we wanted, plus he is a crack up! LOL :) One of the things that makes our boat special is our son drew the skull that is stitched on the engine cover. Shannon helped us with the finanacing and the guy whole built the boat (can't remember his name, only met him once) actually took us out to the lake to try the boat out It is a small family type company. But I don't know if they make cats........................Good Luck!! Deb :)
http://www.kachinaboats.com/
P.S. We looked at all the manufacturers around here before deciding on Kachina. I wish we were active on the boards at that time, as I would like to try out Froggies Company.
sigepmock
08-06-2004, 07:03 AM
CJ,
I just read your story and looked at the Demo Days thread posted by Darin. I think you have been very reasonable and presented your side of the story well. Darrin's response in the Demo Days thread was low class and un-professional. I know there are a lot of Great boat manufactures out there, in my opinion you can't go wrong with Eliminator or Ultra, my dealings with both have been top notch. Good luck.
Chris
CJ Did you check your pm?
DogHouse
08-06-2004, 08:38 AM
My thought on the gel coat splashing is that it's going to happen whether you like it or not if you have a design that looks good and is popular. There's just not much that you can do about it. If your builder doesn't do it to you, another will. Doesn't really matter which builder you go to, you will eventually end up with the same problem. Yeah it kind of sucks a bit more when it happens so fast, but might as well take it as a compliment and not let it get in the way of enjoyment of your new boat. The good news is that trends come and go quickly, so there will some limited number of similar gel coats shot before people move on to the next new thing. Seeing another boat similar to mine is not going to get me all worked up or get in the way of my enjoyment of my boat or the lake. At least two of the alternative builders that were mentioned in this thread (Eliminator and Shockwave) have done boats with graphics and colors almost identical to mine (which is similar to others before it).
I know that much noise has been made on these boards about a new builder that is trying to patent or copyright their designs to prevent copies from popping up. My bet is that they will spend considerable time and resources in court going after all of the other builders that will inevitably shoot something that's a little too similar. Is it worth it? Not in my estimation. Also, what's to keep someone from buying a boat without graphics and then painting it themselves (or hiring someone to paint it). As long as it's for private use, i.e. not for sale or profit, I don't believe that a copyright will prevent this.
I personally don't think it's wrong for a builder to produce duplicate or similar designs, especially when asked to do so by a customer. Look at how many flame jobs there are out there, or tribals, or stripes, or checkers, or on and on... I do think it's wrong for a builder to tell you that they won't copy your design so that they can get your money, and then immediately turn around and do exactly that, knowing full well that they agreed not to! So, in that respect, I can understand why this deal went bad. CJ, I hope you find the right deal that you're looking for. Just know that going to Eliminator is no guarantee that your next design won't get splashed again.
:cool:
nodigg
08-06-2004, 08:54 AM
Doghouse, well said as always! Now, has anyone copied my backwards self done flame job yet?
That Guy
08-06-2004, 08:56 AM
Sorry to hear about your troubles. I don't think Advantage makes the boat you are looking for but we have had nothing but a great experience with them. First rate customer service (way beyond what you would expect), stuff done on time, stepped up immediately and willingly if there was a problem...it has truly been a great experience. As you can see by the pic below, we didn't want your run of the mill boat either and had Steven Craig at SKC Customz do the custom work. When we went to his shop he pointed out some custom hatches he had done for a Magic that were ultimately copied on another boat. He wasn't real happy about it...I don't remember all the details but it sure seems like they are using other peoples creativity....
With ya Doghouse. I do know that it'll happen. And that there is no guarantee that it wont happen at Eliminator. Learned a few lessens. And still learning from all of you.
The duplication was only part of the story, the attitude was important. Glad I brought it up tho cause people are listening.
I actually visited the SKC site. They do some awesome work. I am thinking about paint on my next ride.
Huckleberry
08-06-2004, 09:23 AM
So . . . I didn't sound like a lunatic with my story, right? :confused:
Not at all amigo. I'd be royally pissed off myself. Sorry to hear they burned ya. as far as duplication, every manufacturer will duplicate your cool design eventually. If you want a one-off, custom paint is the way to go. SKC has some awesome designs too!
revpuffdaddy
08-06-2004, 09:24 AM
CJ,
Bummer story. Very sorry to hear about this type of customer service and un-professional business practices. I would encourage you to talk to Keith Sayre at Conquest Boats. We purchased a 28ft Top cat II deck boat from him this spring and were very happy with the process. Conquest is just about ready to un-veil a brand new 28ft Boss Cat. Completely retooled and from what I have seen it is going to be awesome! Give Keith a call. 928-680-1400
NastyOne
08-06-2004, 09:27 AM
Wow that sucks ass. I only have three letters to make you feel better in the long run....... D......C........B. :D
Ducatista
08-06-2004, 09:34 AM
[QUOTE=CJ]With ya Doghouse. I do know that it'll happen. And that there is no guarantee that it wont happen at Eliminator. Learned a few lessens. And still learning from all of you.
Next time is the charm for you. I don't know you, but really feel bad for you. I would die for that ride, and to have it fall apart, with all you're effort and ideas and money, big money, I would be heart broken too. Better luck with you're next attempt, this may be a blessing in disguise.
I too, would love to see a pic!
Three Days Only
08-06-2004, 09:37 AM
I have only one thing to say RON MOYES is a F U C K I N G .. C O C K S U C k E R!!!!
That A S S H O L E, straight out called me a liar to my face after I purchased the boat and got one of the first 496HO's with problems after they were first released. After talking to Mercury who admited to the problem but recommended having the manufacturer contact them to push through the replacement of the motor, I figured that with a faxed letter from Mercury admitting to the unsolved problems in the motors that Mr. FA GIT Moyes would at least make a call to help push through the replacement. He told me I was a liar and that I was just crying to get a new motor and to more or less pound sand, he also stated that If I prusued the issue further he would make sure that no one at SleekCraft/Magic powerboats would assist me with anything. I sent Mercury's paperwork to Moyes via fax and insisted that he helped me with the motor issues which I had since day one of taking delivery. He again said FU CK YOU. At that point he contacted others in the company, and no one would discuss or help me with my problems. Mercury ended up setting me up at a local shop and took care of everything with no questions asked, but it took almost one year and three differnt motors.
There are some good people there that try to help, but the owner Ron Moyes Is a major D I CK H E A D.
Thinking back on it, I should of wasted the time and money and sued that pricks ass!!
Froggystyle
08-06-2004, 09:49 AM
My thought on the gel coat splashing is that it's going to happen whether you like it or not if you have a design that looks good and is popular. There's just not much that you can do about it. If your builder doesn't do it to you, another will.
I don't speak for the industry, and I speak against it on a lot of counts. One the first part of your statement is partially true, people will try. Proper IP protection in place will prevent that though, or you will make money on the splash.
You certainly have the right to expect your builder not to splash you. This is where I differ with you greatly. If the consumer doesn't demand integrity with regard to build ethics or otherwise, who is going to?
Doesn't really matter which builder you go to, you will eventually end up with the same problem...
At least two of the alternative builders that were mentioned in this thread (Eliminator and Shockwave) have done boats with graphics and colors almost identical to mine (which is similar to others before it).
Namely the Kevin Spaise's Shadow that was splashed by Sleekcraft/Magic first, and the rest of the industry later... "Your" design...
I know that much noise has been made on these boards about a new builder that is trying to patent or copyright their designs to prevent copies from popping up. My bet is that they will spend considerable time and resources in court going after all of the other builders that will inevitably shoot something that's a little too similar. Is it worth it? Not in my estimation. Also, what's to keep someone from buying a boat without graphics and then painting it themselves (or hiring someone to paint it). As long as it's for private use, i.e. not for sale or profit, I don't believe that a copyright will prevent this.
It actually would, although I will not pursue that end. It is enough for me to know that if a manufacturer splashes my copyrighted, trademarked or patented ideas they will be paying me or my client (if it is their IP) handsomely for their indiscretion.
I personally don't think it's wrong for a builder to produce duplicate or similar designs, especially when asked to do so by a customer.
:cool:
Yeah, we know. That is why you are driving around in a splashed design. You didn't take the time to design your own. You didn't go to any expense to create something new. Chris did, with the understanding that he would not be duplicated by Magic. This is a critique of the integrity of Magic, not those who want others designs. Of course the client wants something that looks cool. cooler than anything they have done anyway...
My advice is, if you like someones designs, and you want them on your boat, buy a boat from them...
Rio, I did not do a complete search, but you are right, a deleted thread is no good. I hope mine doesn't go to shit so it gets deleted.
I will hopefully be doing some reminding before Demo Dayz as well as regularly so that good ideas on buying boats do not get forgotten.
Froggy. I commend you on how it seems you are going to do business. You started with great ideas and goals. I hope you have met them. I can't wait to see your product and wish you great luck and success. I hope you push the bar higher than it is right now.
SHAKE-YO-AZZ
08-06-2004, 12:20 PM
Say it aint so, another boat builder given bad customer service :jawdrop: I thought (per the boards) only Commander did that :idea2: What is this world coming to.
Funny you say that. I love my 23 Commander. Very strong and Sy has always been great to me. Never a hiccup. Yet they catch so much shit I'm amazed he stays in business.
DogHouse
08-06-2004, 01:45 PM
I don't speak for the industry, and I speak against it on a lot of counts. One the first part of your statement is partially true, people will try. Proper IP protection in place will prevent that though, or you will make money on the splash.
...
You certainly have the right to expect your builder not to splash you. This is where I differ with you greatly. If the consumer doesn't demand integrity with regard to build ethics or otherwise, who is going to?
...
Namely the Kevin Spaise's Shadow that was splashed by Sleekcraft/Magic first, and the rest of the industry later... "Your" design...
...
It actually would, although I will not pursue that end. It is enough for me to know that if a manufacturer splashes my copyrighted, trademarked or patented ideas they will be paying me or my client (if it is their IP) handsomely for their indiscretion.
...
Yeah, we know. That is why you are driving around in a splashed design. You didn't take the time to design your own. You didn't go to any expense to create something new. Chris did, with the understanding that he would not be duplicated by Magic. This is a critique of the integrity of Magic, not those who want others designs. Of course the client wants something that looks cool. cooler than anything they have done anyway...
...
My advice is, if you like someones designs, and you want them on your boat, buy a boat from them...
Just to set it straight, I have never called my boat "my" design. Far from it. I did design the graphics on my previous boat, and they came out ok, but not great. Having limited experience as an artist or graphics designer, this time I wanted to rely on the talents of a pro gelcoat artist to come up with something nice. When I ordered the Magic, I told them that I really liked the deck boat that they had on a brochure and that I wanted something similar, but modified enough so that it had a little different look. As it turned out, it was changed a little, but very little. Ok, no big deal, I liked it and still do. The fact that there are others out there doesn't bother me, but it sure seems to bother you (and others)! Your problem, not mine.
And yes, I am well aware that the design originated in Ultra's molds. If I would have put an original design on my boat, and it looked good, then by now there would be 5 or 10 other boats driving around that look just like it, some from Magic, some from others, so the end result would be the same. The only difference would be that I could say "that was my design and all you other people are a$$holes for stealing it". Not something I care about.
I am also aware that Magic promised not to splash CJ's design and reneged on that agreement. If you read my post again, you will see that I thought that was wrong.
As far as your copyrighted graphics go, one issue I see with enforcing this is where you draw the line between "same" and "similar". Is there a legal definition that is clear enough so that infringement can be easily identified, and if so, what is that definition and how do you measure the "sameness" of two designs? Also, are you going to get a copyright for every single graphics/color combo that you put out? I would think that it will be very difficult for other manufacturers to avoid stepping on your toes and getting into trouble when a customer comes to them with a drawing and asks to have it put on their boat. The builders will have to be completely up to date on all of the current design copyrights and know exactly how similar they can make something. I'm sure that you have some legal ace that's got it all figured out, but in my opinion you're setting yourself up for a lot of hassle in the future for something that's of questionable value. There will be a certain group of buyers who like the concept of exclusivity and will come to you as a result, but there will also be others that think it's petty bullsh!t and will avoid you and your products. Just out of curiosity, what are you going to do when someone asks you to build a Trident with lightning bolts and checkers all over it? Are you going to say no because it's not an original design?
I think people make way too big a deal out of "their" graphics designs. Come on, it's just a bunch of shapes, lines, and colors, and for the most part it's been done before somewhere, sometime, in some form (maybe not even on a boat). Some people like similar things, some like different things, what the hell does it matter? People should be free to put whatever design they like on any boat they want. What are you going to do next, trademark all the colors and all patterns so that people have to pay you for using an < insert favorite color here > < insert favorite shape here > on their boat? Hey, I just thought of how I'll make my millions, I'll trademark white gelcoat and get rich! (that was a joke, by the way...)
:D
ps: In case you couldn't tell, I probably won't be one of Trident's first customers... :p
DogHouse
08-06-2004, 01:49 PM
3DO, don't sugar coat it, tell us how you really feel! :D
DogHouse, Thank you for your support of my problem with their integrity.
Your design is nice and since it was already a public and copied design, copying it again seems to be a given. I would have had little problem with anybody copying my boat once it was on the water. Nothing you can do about it, short of copyrighting which some believe is possible, so you have to let it slide.
Honestly, if they had just said we'd like to copy your boat, I would have been very receptive and worked with them instead of against them. He said I didn't "click" with Magic. I don't "click" with dishonesty. If I don't "click" with Magic, I bet there is a large faction of boaters out there who don't as well. I hope they stick with their guns and find someone to treat them right, back them up and serve them as if they were true family.
I think Nike should sue all of you with any graphics resembling a "swoop"
DogHouse
08-06-2004, 02:06 PM
Seems like it shouldn't be too much to ask that a builder at least wait until a customer's boat is delivered before starting on the first splash of an original customer design, out of common courtesy if nothing else. Once it's out there in public, it's pretty much "game on" for all to see and do with what they will.
Of course it also shouldn't be too much to ask that a builder stand behind a promise or agreement, and we all know how that turned out...
Sorry CJ!
ps: There is one way to avoid splashing, just come up with something so ugly that nobody else could possibly like it! Come to think of it, I can't seem to recall seeing any other boats that look like my original Cheetah. Hmmm... :D
You could design your boat some of the Kachina's out there! Man that takes commitment to paint a boat like that.
Toomstone
08-06-2004, 02:14 PM
CJ check your pm's
I think there is one common catalyst with all the Magic threads...the owner!!!
f bomb this, f bomb that, son - I just don't like you.....geesh :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
34MagicOnHavasu
08-06-2004, 02:36 PM
simple solution . . .
solid color gel
vinyl graphics
new vinyls as soon as you see a copy of "your" design
i'm not a lawyer, but what would be the damages you could
collect if somebody violated your copyright on your boat paint job?
seems to me you would spend more on the lawyer to copyright, and
protect your copyright, then you would ever collect.
sorry to hear about your bad experience with magic. i haven't had any
direct experience with them, as i bout my magic used. love the boat.
I feel all your guys pain having to deal with Magic! I am also a previous Magic owner who went through hell with them. Not going to get into the story but glad I'm not associated with them any longer. I don't call them MAGIC I call them TRAGIC!
Froggystyle
08-06-2004, 04:24 PM
Without quoting everyone who commented, it boils down to this.
Potential customers see something they like. They bring in a picture to their boat builder, and say "I want it to look like this..." If it is a Trident, every single boat builder in the index (590 of them today) will know that it is off-limits without a $5000 liscensing fee. I WILL liscence the graphics, but for a $5000 set fee. If the graphics are worth that much to the client, they will pay the fee.
However, there is the valid chance that if they like the graphics, and need to pay $5000 to a separate company to use them, they will find themselves at the original at some point. The point is, it is a selling point of my company, not someone elses. I am going to great pains to create designs not in use on any boats today, and I am encouraging their use. In addition, I have indeed copyrighted every single gelcoat planned for the first 8 boats we have penned graphics for. There are a variety of ways to describe the protection, but for the sake of my protection, I will not go into them in any detail. Suffice it to say, if it looks like mine, I will get paid... period.
Trademarks are a completely different form of protection. I have trademarked all of these graphics too. The trademark protection is designed to prevent confusion. If, for example, you were to see my graphics show up on a far lower priced boat, and perhaps not done as well it could confuse a potential buyer into buying that boat instead of mine because it looked the same. Trademark law is extraordinarily powerful. If the similarities could draw confusion... the trademark is enforced with damages paid to the holder of the trademark.
And, to set all of your minds at ease, I will not be paying for any of this. My IP firm is working on contingency. In this case, they have gambled that my designs are so powerful, and so likely to get copied that THEY make the money on litigation. I won't make any, but I won't get my stuff copied which is more important to me.
So my advice is, don't steal my designs. Simple enough. I promise I won't steal yours.
BTW, if in the case of someone asking me to do checkers or lightning bolts, I would look to their examples, search the trademark and copyright files for precedent, and if no protection exists go ahead and do it. Otherwise, charge for the liscense and get the permission neccessary to do it.
DogHouse
08-06-2004, 04:32 PM
You've obviously done your homework... Congratulations. Now the rest of us as consumers can expect the price of new boats to increase due to increased costs for researching copyright/trademark files, litigation, etc. Nice! :rolleyes:
So if you do one with bolts and checkers, aren't you knowingly splashing Eliminator, and isn't that the same thing that you condemn Magic for doing to Ultra? :idea2:
:)
1ASKYDV
08-06-2004, 04:33 PM
I think Nike should sue all of you with any graphics resembling a "swoop"
Uh-Ohhhhh....I'm in trouble!! :D :D :D
Froggystyle
08-06-2004, 05:37 PM
Who told you this? Your lawyers will get paid, their lawyers will get paid and you will get very little. Believe me when I tell you this, the form of protection that you seek is extremely difficult to enforce and almost impossible to prove. Any good IP lawyer should have told you that.
Actually, it isn't so tough if you are truly unique. I am not talking about personally getting paid. Not looking to. I am looking only to protect my designs, not use it as a income stream.
Froggystyle
08-06-2004, 05:39 PM
You've obviously done your homework... Congratulations. Now the rest of us as consumers can expect the price of new boats to increase due to increased costs for researching copyright/trademark files, litigation, etc. Nice! :rolleyes:
Pretty much. If you want to splash me anyway...
So if you do one with bolts and checkers, aren't you knowingly splashing Eliminator, and isn't that the same thing that you condemn Magic for doing to Ultra? :idea2:
:)
Um, no. If it is protected, and the designer has a copyright, which would imply they want protection, then I will more than certainly honor that commitment to exclusivity.
Don't look for checkers on a Trident in any case. We will be trying to stick to proprietary designs so I don't have to worry about splashing considerations or legalities.
KACHINA KEN
08-06-2004, 05:54 PM
[/b]
Namely the Kevin Spaise's Shadow that was splashed by Sleekcraft/Magic first, and the rest of the industry later... "Your" design...
.
The Kachina Shadow??? The molds that Kachina uses were purchased from Sleek while they were in bancruptcy mid 90 ish, after they were bought out they came after Louie to try and stop the use of the mold, he kicked their ass in court. I thought everyone knew that????
KACHINA KEN
08-06-2004, 05:57 PM
I'm so glad I have dalmation graphics, I don't think anyone will dup em and if they do that means they are into dalmations as much as me, so it will be cool if they do :D
INFINITEJJ
08-06-2004, 06:29 PM
I'm in the market. All I can say is f()ck MAGIC!! :yuk:
PHX ATC
08-06-2004, 06:36 PM
So my advice is, don't steal my designs. Simple enough. I promise I won't steal yours.
No offense, but we are given the fear of litigation over "stealing" your designs, yet are expected to accept at face value your word to not "steal" our designs?
In my simple world, your word is good as gold, but unfortunately, in today's society it doesn't hold true, as CJ found out. I'm not slamming you Froggystyle, it just seemed an ominous start with your paragraph describing your trademark investigations and lawyer consultation results/agreements, then you end up with a simple verbal promise. Actually I found it funny. I don't know you, yet understand what you represent and as I said earlier, in my book, your word is fine with me.
All this from a guy who has several boats out there with the exact same designs. :D
boatnam2
08-06-2004, 06:55 PM
damm im starting to feel bad about finding a paint job on the internet i liked and doing something like it.
DogHouse
08-06-2004, 07:14 PM
Pretty much. If you want to splash me anyway...
Um, no. If it is protected, and the designer has a copyright, which would imply they want protection, then I will more than certainly honor that commitment to exclusivity.
Don't look for checkers on a Trident in any case. We will be trying to stick to proprietary designs so I don't have to worry about splashing considerations or legalities.
So, by your logic, what Magic does (copy other manufacturer's designs) is ok because the other manufacturers do not have copyright protection. Ok, works for me. Thank you for making my case!
Of course I am NOT referring to the lack of honoring the commitment to not splash CJ's design in his case. That is another issue where IMO Magic was in the wrong. I am referring to the general bashing of Magic due to their willingness to copy other people's gel coat designs.
Oh, and I call BS on the lack of checkers comment. My bet is that the first guy that waves 100 large under your nose (or whatever your boats cost) and asks for checkers will get them just like he wants, as it should be!
:D
Kim Hanson
08-06-2004, 07:24 PM
Sorry too hear about this shit CJ, would you be the guy that use to " Host " HavasuBarney.com?.........( . )( . )..........please tell me you aren't ! :(
Kim Hanson
08-06-2004, 07:35 PM
HELLO, can you see this! :idea: Maybe it should have been bigger :D .............( . )( . ).......... :pig_flyi:
MagicMtnDan
08-06-2004, 09:39 PM
Hey CJ, sorry to hear about your negative experience on a custom boat purchase. It's just not supposed to be that way but it sounds like they were treating you like a number.
I commend you for having the integrity and ethics to confront them about the problem. It takes a big person to not be tempted to take the boat they've been dreaming about and planning for many months.
Things have a way of working out for the best. You'll get the boat you want and be treated right. While the bad kharma will come back to haunt Magic.
Keep us posted and good luck!
Sorry too hear about this shit CJ, would you be the guy that use to " Host " HavasuBarney.com?.........( . )( . )..........please tell me you aren't ! :(
Yes I owned JNJHost. Earlier this year I sold it to free up more time for my kids and the guy who I sold it too couldn't handle it and sold it to a guy in PA, who seems to be doing things right.
I feel great tho. The new guy says everyone he calls misses my service. No one ever tells you directly but when you hear that you did something right, it is always a plus!
Free HavasuBarney! Where are the shirts?
Things have a way of working out for the best. You'll get the boat you want and be treated right. While the bad kharma will come back to haunt Magic.
You got it MMD! I think I already have my choice and it'll blow by my previous plan in style.
They F'd the wrong guy. Had to sooner or later. I tried to tell them I was the guy who SHOULD buy their boat. They did not heed my warning.
They are awsome boats!! I can't tell you how happy we are with ours! :cool:
Which one is yours? I don't know if I have the balls to have done what some Kachina owners have done. As much as I wanted a different design, some of those are as different as they get!
Glad you love your boat! See you out there! SOON!
It's amazing how this issue has tainted me. The confusion I feel every time I look at a boat is unstoppable. I no longer see a boat and say, "that's the one". I have so much ingrained doubt now. Life was so easy before when I knew what I wanted.
Jrocket
08-07-2004, 08:16 AM
I have only one thing to say RON MOYES is a F U C K I N G .. C O C K S U C k E R!!!!
That A S S H O L E, straight out called me a liar to my face after I purchased the boat and got one of the first 496HO's with problems after they were first released. After talking to Mercury who admited to the problem but recommended having the manufacturer contact them to push through the replacement of the motor, I figured that with a faxed letter from Mercury admitting to the unsolved problems in the motors that Mr. FA GIT Moyes would at least make a call to help push through the replacement. He told me I was a liar and that I was just crying to get a new motor and to more or less pound sand, he also stated that If I prusued the issue further he would make sure that no one at SleekCraft/Magic powerboats would assist me with anything. I sent Mercury's paperwork to Moyes via fax and insisted that he helped me with the motor issues which I had since day one of taking delivery. He again said FU CK YOU. At that point he contacted others in the company, and no one would discuss or help me with my problems. Mercury ended up setting me up at a local shop and took care of everything with no questions asked, but it took almost one year and three differnt motors.
There are some good people there that try to help, but the owner Ron Moyes Is a major D I CK H E A D.
Thinking back on it, I should of wasted the time and money and sued that pricks ass!!
HELLLLLL YEAHHHHH !
Lets read it one more time,just for fun!
Froggystyle
08-07-2004, 11:40 AM
No offense, but we are given the fear of litigation over "stealing" your designs, yet are expected to accept at face value your word to not "steal" our designs?
...All this from a guy who has several boats out there with the exact same designs. :D
No, I am not expecting you do expect anything. If you do an original design, I encourage you to copyright it so you stand a chance of protecting it. I am. If someone "steals" a copyrighted design, you are entitled to bring the full force of copyright protection against any comers. The courts can then decide who stole what from whom, and who has to pay. Simple.
I don't know what the last part is. I have designed and built one boat for myselft, and it was only splashed... not a splash. I don't think that anyone from any aspect of our community would consider "On The Rocks" even remotely derivative of any other design ever put on a boat.
BTW, there are few, if any boat designs copyrighted. That the industry doesn't value their Intellectual Property as much as I value mine is of no consequence to me.
One thing is positive... you will never see me steal a design. If I am required by my prospective client to do something derivative, I will respectfully ask that the prospective client gain rights to the design first.
PHX ATC
08-07-2004, 03:48 PM
No, I am not expecting you do expect anything. If you do an original design, I encourage you to copyright it so you stand a chance of protecting it. I am. If someone "steals" a copyrighted design, you are entitled to bring the full force of copyright protection against any comers. The courts can then decide who stole what from whom, and who has to pay. Simple.
I don't know what the last part is. I have designed and built one boat for myselft, and it was only splashed... not a splash. I don't think that anyone from any aspect of our community would consider "On The Rocks" even remotely derivative of any other design ever put on a boat.
BTW, there are few, if any boat designs copyrighted. That the industry doesn't value their Intellectual Property as much as I value mine is of no consequence to me.
One thing is positive... you will never see me steal a design. If I am required by my prospective client to do something derivative, I will respectfully ask that the prospective client gain rights to the design first.
Uh, that last comment from me originally was to mean me, PHX ATC, as having a boat with several others out there that look just like it. I've seen at least 4 Nordic 25's with the red/gray flame gelcoat. That wasn't meant towards you at all. Sorry, wrong wavelength there. :)
Good for you copyrighting your ideas, designs, and creativities. I've never seen "On the Rocks."
I'm glad you will never steal a design. I'm also glad it's you, not me, that is venturing into the gray area of design rights and what is and what isn't proper and legal in the design world. Go man go!
Toby
Kim Hanson
08-07-2004, 04:02 PM
Yes I owned JNJHost. Earlier this year I sold it to free up more time for my kids and the guy who I sold it too couldn't handle it and sold it to a guy in PA, who seems to be doing things right.
I feel great tho. The new guy says everyone he calls misses my service. No one ever tells you directly but when you hear that you did something right, it is always a plus!
Free HavasuBarney! Where are the shirts?
Good to hear things are going right for you , give me back my 9000 posts focker :D
Free he will be soon !...........( . )( . )........No shirts, no service! :D
Froggystyle
08-09-2004, 08:04 AM
I'm glad you will never steal a design. I'm also glad it's you, not me, that is venturing into the gray area of design rights and what is and what isn't proper and legal in the design world. Go man go!
Toby
Thanks Toby.
I am hoping people just steer clear and I won't have to worry about it at all. In any case, I have "people" to do the worrying! ;)
Froggy, your attitude is wonderful. I hope you will make a difference.
There are two steps to changing the industry:
1. Demand respect from the companies. The ones that don't give it will lose in the long run. Companies like this prey on ignorant buyers, of which the economy has spit out many of late.
2. See step one. The owners, in this case RON MOYES aka. . . (well you heard it), will feel the pain of the demands of their buyers and change (unlikely) or go broke and have to sell. In that case, I hope a Froggy like guy comes in and shows us how it's done.
little rowe boat
08-09-2004, 09:18 AM
That sucks. The bottom line with many boat builders is the money and forget the customer service and good customer relations. Once they have your money,they forget your name,let alone the promises they made.
I'm going to copyright about 550,000 variations of different graphic designs so I can sue you all....
So how close can one design resemble another before you sue? I can surely understand if it's a very orchestrated design/mural like something Michter T has done, but...
riverracerx
08-09-2004, 10:46 AM
This is my only relevancy, but take a Tommy Hilfiger logo or a Burberry plaid. You would think all plaids look the same huh. Well ask the Disney Stores how much money they had to cough up for copying a plaid! You have to change it by at least 20%, and THEN you have to show both designs in court and have them decide if they still look similar. Brand recognition is a very touchy subject and designers will go to all ends to protect what they have built. Putting it back in the boating world. If Wes decided to copyright a design, and you copy it, he will win in court, period. If the other boat companies have not bothered to copyright something then it is their own fault.
Just for kicks and giggles - how do we know what designs have been copyrighted? Anybody can lay a copyright on their artwork without registering it. Seems a painter could bust a lot balls if they laid claim to their work. Maybe they will in the future?
Damn confusing :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Froggystyle
08-09-2004, 12:27 PM
Just for kicks and giggles - how do we know what designs have been copyrighted? Anybody can lay a copyright on their artwork without registering it. Seems a painter could bust a lot balls if they laid claim to their work. Maybe they will in the future?
Damn confusing :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
You can lay claim, but only if you show prior use and can prove it. In this case, you can do a cease and desist, but not sue for rights, as you never registered.
I have a 10 pound publication on my desk that shows only the potential conflicts of my Trident logo. None are close, my IP firm confirmed it with the balsiest search you can do, and we went ahead with uncontested trademarking and copyrighting of the logo and slogan. I have a similar volume showing not only the potential conflicts of our tip design, a feature within the tip, the shape of the overall design, color patterns and potential color patterns, and proportions of the style as it reflects upon the porportions of the boat (percentages, not actual sizes) that protects each of our graphic designs (6 to date). I promise, if our tips, shape or style is used, I will win.
Oh, and Roz. That would be a good plan. You would need $247,500,000.00 to do it at the rate I get charged for a copyright application (not a search). They may give you a volume discount though... ;)
RiverToysJas
08-09-2004, 12:45 PM
Just for kicks and giggles - how do we know what designs have been copyrighted? Anybody can lay a copyright on their artwork without registering it. Seems a painter could bust a lot balls if they laid claim to their work. Maybe they will in the future?
Damn confusing :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
The way I understand things.....All designs are Copyrighted as soon as they are created, you don't have to do anything to get copyright protection - it's called an "implied copyright". IF however, you plan to sue for damages ($$$), and not just stop use, you have to of had the Copyright registered with the government. ;)
RTJas :D
Froggystyle
08-09-2004, 12:57 PM
The way I understand things.....All designs are Copyrighted as soon as they are created, you don't have to do anything to get copyright protection - it's called an "implied copyright". IF however, you plan to sue for damages ($$$), and not just stop use, you have to of had the Copyright registered with the government. ;)
RTJas :D
Kind of correctamundo. Your designs are copyrighted if they are unique. I can't draw a checkered flag and call it good. They have to be copyrightable to hold ANY form of protection.
Seems silly, but I sat down over a period of months and came up with our logo. It was killer when the idea struck me, and I certainly had no outside influences on how to do it. Using the actual Trident icon as the "E" was a huge success for me with regard to the logo and I was totally stoked. Everyone liked it, and we dialed it in and sent for the trademark.
Now, fortunately we have "Custom Boats" as part of our logo, and fortunately our logo includes the icon that I also copyrighted, which strengthened our case hugely. That I came up with it on my own doesn't mean it has never been done before.
It had.
A car alarm company in Texas about 15 years ago trademarked a slightly similar logo. They used a simple Ariel font, the Trident only was the "E" and the shaft didn't extend back through the other letters on the left and they had let their protection go into default over 10 years ago.
It took a letter from them explaining that the trademark was no longer enforced for me to get my trademark. It was close enough to cause problems.
As a side note, our copyright search included any Greeks or otherwise that held claim to the word and object "Trident" as it dates back to pre-biblical Greek gods, Posiedon in particular who wielded a Trident as his magic wand.
FastTimmy
08-09-2004, 02:55 PM
Well after reading four pages of posts I am saddened that Magic did not stand up to there promise to not copy your graphics. I agree that our graphics can and will be copied but ones word means or should mean more than that. If you need to lie to your customer in order to get the job that says something right there. If you know you as a boat builder you could, would or might copy a scheme brought to you by a customer then you should not guarantee or make a promise that you might or know you will break.
As far magic goes I really liked those things and took the time this past weekend to look real hard at Ivan Dans 28Â’ magic deck boat. I loveÂ’em, found a few things I would call them out on if they built me one but I know that is NOT a issue now. Besides I donÂ’t think they could satisfied me after owning a DCB ;) anyway...
Timmy
CJ, I don't know about everyone else but thanks for taking the time to tell us the story. I only glanced through the first page and didn't read anymore. I hope you did or will talk to Dave @ DCB. You want a family well I KNOW that the DCB'rs are a family. I have nothing but good things to say about the quality of my boat and the Best "guys" in the business in MHO. Pm me if you like
Oh, and Roz. That would be a good plan. You would need $247,500,000.00 to do it at the rate I get charged for a copyright application (not a search). They may give you a volume discount though... ;)
Hey, ya gotta spend money to make money, right? :D
34MagicOnHavasu
08-10-2004, 09:02 AM
i can understand a manufacturer spending the $$ for copyright, and trademark, but what damages could an individual collect for someone
"copying" their design they paid $200 for ? it seems damages would be the $200, legal fees, and perhaps punitive damages? anybody know what the punitive damages could be? it seems unlikely they would exceed the
actual damages awarded. So probably $10,000 in legal fees to risk collecting $400 plus costs. Hardly seems worth the time of twelve jurors.
Froggystyle
08-10-2004, 09:55 AM
i can understand a manufacturer spending the $$ for copyright, and trademark, but what damages could an individual collect for someone
"copying" their design they paid $200 for ? it seems damages would be the $200, legal fees, and perhaps punitive damages? anybody know what the punitive damages could be? it seems unlikely they would exceed the
actual damages awarded. So probably $10,000 in legal fees to risk collecting $400 plus costs. Hardly seems worth the time of twelve jurors.
Except, we are not talking about $200. We are talking about the missed sale of a $140,000 boat. The damages are, that someone saw a protected design and wanted it. They found a way to replicate the design for less somewhere else and not have to buy the more expensive boat. This is not the fault of the buyer. Of course they want it.
Ever see the little baby Jeep cars that kids drive around. Power Wheels? They pay an large percentage of their cost of building to Chrysler/Jeep for the ability to liscense the name and shape of the classic Jeep lines. It is worth it because of the brand loyalty and name recognition. It sells toys. Every "Officially Liscensed" NFL shirt pays the NFL for the use. Etc...
You either liscense copyrighted designs, or pay penalties. The penalty for a stolen design on a boat could be the whole profit on the boat, maybe more. It could be as much as the profit lost by the higher dollar builder who wasn't able to sell a boat because of the non-liscensed version now on the water. In some circumstances, the items in question could be confiscated by the government and potentially destroyed for the infringement. For example, a whole cargo container of "Swap Meet Louie" showed up in San Diego a couple of months ago. It was handbags with the Louis Vuitton logo on them, but they were fakes. The whole container was confiscated, the principles jailed and the lot of goods cataloged, brought into evidence and will be destroyed depending on the outcome of the trial.
If the argument goes "They wouldn't let me build a boat with any other design" then the case is clear. It was steal the design, or not sell a boat. That lost client would most certainly have ended up back at the originators as the design was the most important aspect of the boat purchase for him.
If it isn't that set in stone (it rarely is...) then the manufacturer just puts something else on the boat. No problem at all. No infringement, no problem.
There is no justification for stealing a design. That it is commonplace is not an appropriate response for me. The classic line "Ignorance is no excuse" is applicable here. It doesn't matter that the splashing manufacturers don't know the laws, or are not aware of them. Irrelevant. Stealing is stealing, under whatever name you want to put it under.
And yes, it is worth $10,000 to me to protect my designs. Each and every time... no question. It is part of the value of my company, it is part of the value of each clients boat, and it is a large part of the resale value of the boats in the future. I will not sit idlely by and watch all of that value go away because another manufacturer isn't creative enough to come up with their own designs and wants to use mine for free. Gong...
34MagicOnHavasu
08-10-2004, 01:47 PM
completely agree with you as the manufacturer, and the position you take.
i was simply asking what are the rights of the person that paid the $200 for the design, and then the manufacturer duped it.
ding
Is it 5k or 10k to copywrite a graphic design?
Froggystyle
08-10-2004, 02:11 PM
i was simply asking what are the rights of the person that paid the $200 for the design, and then the manufacturer duped it.
ding
My guess... they would be able to get their $200 back for sure, plus expenses and any time valued for their input on the design. Then, assuming the artwork was done on a "work for hire" contract where they owned the work product, not the artist, they would be able to copyright the artwork. In the meantime, they would file a "cease and desist" motion to keep Magic or anyone else from using the artwork on any further boats until the outcome of the case was finalized. If they were found to be the proper holders of the inferred copyright at the time of the duplication, I would figure they would be able to sue for liscense fees.
Lots of work in this case though. Probably no payoff for Chris either. But, like you said, it is different for a manufacturer. It would be a lot easier to enforce if the copyright was in hand before the design was given to Magic, that's for sure.
Anyway... that's my take on it. I know one builder I will never reccommend in any case...
Probably no payoff for Chris either.
Damn!
:D
Filmwritin
08-15-2004, 11:36 PM
"Except, we are not talking about $200. We are talking about the missed sale of a $140,000 boat...."
I'll bet Magic rolled out the door at $139,999.99 and lost nothing - maybe even billed it as "original art."
The way things are going, they will sell both cats immediately. And I know they will take credit.
However, the first day I walked in, I asked how we would work together on a design and the salesguy said "no problem, I've designed a bunch of boats here". He put one down on paper . . . IT WAS HIDEOUS. That is one reason I walked, took a week of free time and then paid for the design to be completed.
I'm going down with Eliminator to shake down a 28 Daytona with twin 525's today. Can't wait to see that thing!
Just found one of the boats designed by me on the Magic website. See attached for my artwork, my X-boat and the duplicate boat. They said it looked nothing like mine. You make the call. Can't wait 'til I blow by in my new Eliminator!
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