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edge99
08-16-2004, 06:08 PM
Ok, here comes the same question. IÂ’m building a system for my boat and what should I use. This is not going to be too radical or a competition system. I want a system that we can hear while driving down the lake and sound good when anchored off at the sandbar. The boat is used only on lakes and stored in the garage so marine equipment isnÂ’t needed. The boat is a 2004 Bryant 200 runabout-open bow type (not as wild or custom as the other boats on the hot boat site). Attached are pictures of the boat and usable speaker locations. The factory system is Sony CDX-CA705M AM/FM/CD receiver, Sony CDX-757MX Changer, 6 Sony 6.5 XSMP61 dual cone marine speakers, with helm and transom MRC-2 remotes. I have also added a Delphi XM. I am keeping everything except the 6.5Â’s. I want to replace them with some 6.5 2-ways. This is what I had planned. I am looking for other suggestions and comments on the components that I have chosen.
Replace the 6.5Â’s with Alpine SPR 174A 6.5 2-ways. I chose not to use separates in the factory locations because I donÂ’t want to modify the factory side panels. I thought I would either use Alpine or Rockford Fosgate Power or Punch amps for these. Maybe a 4 channel and a 2 channel. I will either paint the grills or use billet so I canÂ’t use a speaker with a grill mounted tweeter.
Next. 2 or 4 Alpine SPR 694A 6x9Â’s under the back seat. I know this is low area to mount them so IÂ’m open for suggestions Will there be a noticeable difference using 4 6x9's instead of 2 and is 4 needed? I donÂ’t want to put subs here because building the enclosure would take up storage space. The same choice for amps (Alpine or Fosgate).
Next a Sub. It will be located under the driver’s side console. The usable dimensions for an enclosure under the console are19” width x 18” depth x 20” height. I have thought about Bazooka tubes, because it would be the easiest route and easy to hide, but I’m not sure how they would sound. I can build an enclosure for a 10” or 12” sub if you think it would be better. Any recommendations of which type of sub (maybe Fosgate)? Also, help with the enclosure (size, material, sealed, ported, etc.). I don’t want the sub to be seen so I will cover the enclosure with the same carpet that is in the boat. I would like the sub to fire up, to the side, or down so it will not be visible (can this be done without losing sound). Again, Alpine or Fosgate Amp (any recommendations on model of amps).
I currently only have one battery (Interstate 800 CCA) and the boat doesnÂ’t have a high performance, high compression motor (5.0 MPI/Alpha 1 Mercruiser) to start. Will I need two batteries? I donÂ’t want to change the alternator.
Any input about the type of equipment that I have chosen or any changes would be appreciated. As you can tell I am a fan of Alpine and Rockford Fosgate. I would like to keep the cost of the speakers, sub, and amps below $1500. I will build the enclosure and do the installation. These boats are 100% wood free, so the only wood that I would like to add is the sub enclosure.
As I said, attached are pictures of locations and boat.

Mr. Naudio
08-17-2004, 05:54 AM
Nice looking boat.
looks like the factory speaker locations will work very well for sound.
would STRONGLY suggest not putting 6x9s under rear seat this can only hurt
the sound.(the factory placement is good for the 6.5s)
I am assuming you want the 6x9s to try and get a little more bass?
As this is the only thing that they may be better at than 6.5s
Since you are going with a sub the crossover setting to your highs will most likely be set to highpass nullifying this theory.
The sub will handle the lows.
Get good 6.5s and you will still be able to put pleanty of midrange to them.
Not a fan of RF or Alpine thats where you would want to talk to Roz he should be able to get the equipment for ya at half price or less. :rollside:
For the type of system you are describing one 5 or 6 channel amp would be fine and draw less from batts.
Would still add another batt perco.(like a stinger or oddesy 1700)

ROZ
08-17-2004, 09:34 AM
Except with the half price or less, I agree with MA... ;) :D
I'm not a big RF fan myself, but I hear the new amps perform pretty good. I really like the Alpine subwoofers. They're overbuilt at their price point and perform well. The only time I'd use Alpine speakers(non marine), other than with a full F1 Status lineup, would be if I needed a good shallow speaker when I didn't have an Eclipse speaker in stock, or the customer was looking for a good inexpensive speaker(retail ;) ).
My advise regarding gear is that the best gear for you is the stuff YOU like.
I have a couple stores in Tn.......

edge99
08-17-2004, 05:15 PM
The purpose of the 6x9's was mainly to make the system louder. But you guys know more about boat systems so I will take your advice and not use them. I don't want to sacrifice sound quality. You just saved me money and time.
Ok, forget the Fosgate and Alpine equipment. What brand of 6.5's, amps, and sub would you recommend. I haven't built systems since the late 80's, so I am out of date on what is good (Alpine and Fosgate was big in the 80's).
Is there any other advice on building the system? Your input is very valuable and much appreciated.
ROZ where are your stores in TN?

Havasu Hangin'
08-17-2004, 07:53 PM
I agree with these guys. Six quality 6.5's and two subs will be plenty loud. In the 80's, you needed quantity...today, it's much more about quality.
Amp and speaker brands are like tasting wine- everyone has an opinion, and it's very subjective.
Having said that, I personally like the Quart or Infinity components, and my last set of Infinity subs really surpassed my expectations. You couldn't go wrong with JL's, either.
I personally do not perfer RF amps in boats, and have no experience with Alpine.
Make sure you overkill the wiring and grounds- it will save you headaches down the road (boats beat up stuff). I also agree on a second battery- cheap (starting) insurance for a quality system.

RBook
08-17-2004, 08:02 PM
My Larson is setup almost exactly as yours but came with Clarion equipment. I used all the stock equipment and just added an old RF Punch 150 and two new Punch 12's and it sounds great. I built two seperate boxes, one for each console. I built the boxes in the shape of truck boxes and then mounted them to the console back upside down so the subs fire at a downward angle and this also saved foot space under the console. I found carpet that matched the boat carpet but have not got around to installing any speaker grills yet. I know I had some pictures but can't seem to find them right now. If you want them completely hidden recess the speakers in the box and just cover the box completely with carpet. I did not replace the Clarion speakers because I know that in a couple of years they will have to be replaced, marine or not, and then I will upgrade them.
Good luck..

77charger
08-17-2004, 08:45 PM
take these guys advice sounds like you are covered.I can say though do get an extra battery. or 2

ROZ
08-17-2004, 09:58 PM
The purpose of the 6x9's was mainly to make the system louder. But you guys know more about boat systems so I will take your advice and not use them. I don't want to sacrifice sound quality. You just saved me money and time.
Ok, forget the Fosgate and Alpine equipment. What brand of 6.5's, amps, and sub would you recommend. I haven't built systems since the late 80's, so I am out of date on what is good (Alpine and Fosgate was big in the 80's).
Is there any other advice on building the system? Your input is very valuable and much appreciated.
ROZ where are your stores in TN?
Chattanooga, Nashvile, Knoxville, and Madison...

edge99
08-20-2004, 06:49 AM
Thanks to everyone for your help. Although, I still am undecided about the type of equipment to use.
A few more questions,
1. What should I use to build the sub enclosure (marine plywood, etc.) and what thickness should it be?
2. When running the wire from the battery to the distribution block, what gage wire should it be? Considering that this will be powering amps for 6 6.5" speakers and 1 12" sub.
3. How close to the battery does the fuse need to be?
4. I have seen a lot of billet speaker covers on this site. Some look like they would interfere with sound. Any comments on this.
Again, thanks for everyoneÂ’s help. It is greatly appreciated.

PHX ATC
08-20-2004, 07:30 AM
3. How close to the battery does the fuse need to be?
18 inches or closer to the battery.
ROZ taught me that. :D

Havasu Hangin'
08-20-2004, 08:01 AM
What should I use to build the sub enclosure (marine plywood, etc.) and what thickness should it be?
If you plan on keeping the boat, I'd use 3/4" marine grade plywood and resin/glass where needed.
When running the wire from the battery to the distribution block, what gage wire should it be? Considering that this will be powering amps for 6 6.5" speakers and 1 12" sub.
It depends on how current the amps draw. Different amps will have different current draw needs. Here's a chart that is a good ballpark:
http://pix.crutchfield.com/kb/Chart.jpg
When you settle on the amps (size, class), then you can estimate the draw and wire needs.
How close to the battery does the fuse need to be?
As close as possible. If you are going to run two batteries, put it right next to the Perko switch.
Good luck.

ROZ
08-20-2004, 09:02 AM
4. I have seen a lot of billet speaker covers on this site. Some look like they would interfere with sound. Any comments on this.
HH must be slipping in his old age... He forgot one :jawdrop:
I think most will agree that many of the grills the billet enterprises have posted will restrict sound, but I have noticed a few that would work really well. I know it's been said before, but wait until you see some of the models Magic34 has comming out here in the near future. The models I've seen will present good sound as well as very good looks...

riverbound
08-21-2004, 03:02 PM
Getting on this thread a little late but I would have to disagree with these guys on the 6.5 versus 6x9 in a boat application.
I have built many boats and the 6x9s always perform better in a boat than a 6.5. The 6x9 will give you more volume and output than a 6.5. One thing you ave to remember when building a system in a boat is you are trying to fill an open area with sound so the larger the speaker the better. I know that we were all taught that 6.5s sound better than 6x9s, and that is true in an automobile application. My recommendation would deffinitely be to use the 6x9s wherever there is room. I have built two identical boats one used 6.5s one used 6x9s, other than that everything was exactly the same (amps,woofers,subs, headunit,speaker placement) you can guess which boat was louder and sounded better. If you were building a car I would definitely advise against using 6x9s but a boat is different.
The majority of the boats that leave our shop has the following equipment.
Alpine or pioneer head unit
Rockford p4004 and 6001bd amplifiers
3pairs of eclipse se8493 (6x9 4way)
2 rockford or JL 12" woofers (p2 orw0)
This is a very simple system but works very well and cant be beat for the money it costs. There are quite a few board members that have this very same system in their boats right now ;)

Havasu Hangin'
08-21-2004, 06:46 PM
I hate to disagree, but...
One thing you ave to remember when building a system in a boat is you are trying to fill an open area with sound so the larger the speaker the better. I know that we were all taught that 6.5s sound better than 6x9s, and that is true in an automobile application.
3pairs of eclipse se8493 (6x9 4way)
If SQ isn't an issue, then why 4-ways? I would put my MB Quart 6.5" 2-ways against any 6x9s (everything from Pioneer to Sony to Eclipse to Infinity). No comparison in volume or clarity.
Rockford p4004 and 6001bd amplifiers;)
It's been my experience that the only people recommending Rockford Hotplate amps are:
1. Those dealers that are making money off them.
and/or..
2. Those boaters who don't know any better.
For example, with lower ohm loads, my RF ran hotter than my JBL's. However, the JBL's were almost half the price per watt.
2 rockford or JL 12" woofers (p2 orw0)
w0's? For a few bucks more, I'd go with the W3's. Those w0's are pretty anemic. After all, like you said, boats need to be loud.
If the "larger is better" formula really held true, then how is it that the big boys can hit 165+ db with a single 10" woofer? I would think it's quality over quantity equipment these days...
Once again, sorry to disagree.

77charger
08-21-2004, 07:02 PM
w0's? For a few bucks more, I'd go with the W3's. Those w0's are pretty anemic. After all, like you said, boats need to be loud.
If the "larger is better" formula really held true, then how is it that the big boys can hit 165+ db with a single 10" woofer? I would think it's quality over quantity equipment these days...
Once again, sorry to disagree.
Oh mr professor optima you know the answer you really want to recomend squares aint that how they hit 165db with a single 10 :boxed: :boxed: :argue:

riverbound
08-21-2004, 09:44 PM
If SQ isn't an issue, then why 4-ways? I would put my MB Quart 6.5" 2-ways against any 6x9s (everything from Pioneer to Sony to Eclipse to Infinity). No comparison in volume or clarity.
Volume. Of course a $349 pair of speakers will sound better than a $179 pair of speakers. Lets compare apples to apples here. You can not tell me that if you take a specific pair of speakers and put the 6.5 from that series and put it in a boat then take the same speaker in a 6x9 and put it in the same boat, that the 6.5 will sound better. Once you have tried this then you will see my point. I have done this.
It's been my experience that the only people recommending Rockford Hotplate amps are:1. Those dealers that are making money off them.
and/or..
2. Those boaters who don't know any better.
For example, with lower ohm loads, my RF ran hotter than my JBL's. However, the JBL's were almost half the price per watt.
You've got to be kidding right? If I were going to sell an inferior product just to make money then I would sell you the Eclipse premiums (60 point margin) or the JL amps (55 point margin) instead of the Rockford amps (40 point margin) The reason we sell these amps are because for the money you can not beat the sound quality and power out put these amps provide. Also I have had no issues with the new amps overheating. One of the main reasons that the RF amps get so hot to the touch is because the heatsink is doing its job of getting the heat off the circuit board and into the heatsink.
Boaters who dont know better? Again you've got to be kidding me. How many people come to you a month and pay you to build their boat system for them? I have built every imaginable setup in a boat and this combo works great for the majority of boaters out there. I'm not saying that with this setup you will be the loudest boat on the water but it will do for most people who dont want to go into exotic batt. setups, generators, or very short play times.
w0's? For a few bucks more, I'd go with the W3's. Those w0's are pretty anemic. After all, like you said, boats need to be loud.
Efficiency is a big concern when building most boats. most people are only running 2 maybe 3 batts in these boats and they still want to be able to play all day and have some juice to start the boat at the end of the day. More current draw = less run time. I have many boats that run this sytem up to 8 hours on a single Optima and then switch over to the other battery and head home for the day. We are trying to get asw much sound as possible as efficiently as possible for as little money as possible. You have to remeber to compare Apples to Apples.
I would like to keep the cost of the speakers, sub, and amps below $1500. I will build the enclosure and do the installation. These boats are 100% wood free, so the only wood that I would like to add is the sub enclosure.
You have to remeber that we are not working with an unlimited budget and he also only has a single battery but would probably be willing to add a 2nd.

ROZ
08-21-2004, 10:50 PM
Oh mr professor optima you know the answer you really want to recomend squares aint that how they hit 165db with a single 10 :boxed: :boxed: :argue:
I witness to a single 8L7 that hit 151db... Just throwin up a little ammo for ya RObert :)

Havasu Hangin'
08-21-2004, 11:03 PM
Riverbound, my friend...you are in a tough spot. Having to defend your sales decisions is tough, since you are bound by the brands you sell. To that end, a couple quick points:
1. I did not pay $349 for my Quarts. However, I'm also smart enough to know not to walk into any retailer and trust them with my boat, either.
2. You were the one making a blanket statement about 6x9's over 6.5's (several times). Are you kidding me?
3. My RF stuff had big problems with heat. I spent more time and money trying to cool them than other equipment. If the heatsink is really "doing it's job", then they wouldn't go into thermal shutdown, right? They did. However, I don't sell them, so please consider the source.
4. w0 efficiency? Are you kidding me?
http://www.jlaudio.com/subwoofers/images/RP_Chart.jpg
Looking at the chart, it would appear there is only 100 or so watts that separate the two (the current draw for a class D 200 watt difference at clipping is only 17 amps- probably 5 amps nominal). I'm sure you told your customers about that, let them listen to both, and then let them decide.
Yes, people take their boats to you monthly. However, people also take their boats to Best Buy. Since Best Buy gets paid (like you), does that mean they are boat experts, too?
Is there somebody from Best Buy or Circuit City who can add thier opinion?

ROZ
08-21-2004, 11:53 PM
The speakers sound different. Chalk it up to personal opinion and move along. IF the guy is adding good gear and can sound good without butchering up his boat, why not simply suggest a good speaker that fits in his factory location. He has 6 not 4 locations. He's already ahead of the game there...Add the sub for the botom end and he's good to go at that level.
As far as Eclipse amps, they only belong in cars. While they do sound good , they have no balls. Fostage redesigned their amps because they had to.They still need to divise a way for the heatsink to dissipate heat a little faster, but that's MY opinion. Not saying the new stuff is an inferrior product though... P.S. I still have the classic stuff in my pickup... A 20x2 watt amp never sounded so good...Remember the old stuff is unregulated.. ;)
There are many good manufactures that put out great products. Some of which outperform the gear mentioned here. NOTE TO EVERYONE: SHOP AROUND AND BUY WHAT YOU LIKE. EVERYONE'S pocketbook and interpetation of sound at their preferred volume is different. So if you like what I can get, are a DIY'r, and want to save a lot of money, call me I ship nation wide from 8 dc' :D Sorry guys, had to do the shameless spam :D . I've heard a lot of quality gear at great prices that nobody ever really posts about... PartyCat how'r ya liking your Cadence amp? Keith, how about them XXX's .... Anyone running a Bramha, Alpine(subs or amps), Diamond Audio, or Digital Designs? How about Zapco? MBrown2, Those Pierce speakers sound great! I know Whiped really likes his PG's...
I like round speakers and will use other methods of filling in various frequencies and more volume cleaner (my personal definition of cleaner)before I (personally) use a 6x9... For the record, there are a few pair of x9's I like and highly reccomend for those who's need will benefit from using them... Just not for me...
Next you'll be debating regulated vs unregulated power supplies or what type of battery system to run :supp: :hammer2:
Isn't a clean watt a clean watt .... :D

PHX ATC
08-22-2004, 07:18 AM
Isn't a clean watt a clean watt .... :D
Only if it showers. :D

ROZ
08-22-2004, 11:20 AM
:D
Now get to work :p

riverbound
08-22-2004, 01:58 PM
Yes, people take their boats to you monthly. However, people also take their boats to Best Buy. Since Best Buy gets paid (like you), does that mean they are boat experts, too?
I would like to think that I am one of the most knowledgeable shops in my area when it comes to boats (averaging 40-60 per month). I have customers that will bring their boats to me even though they drive past many Circuit City's Best Buys and even some Al&Eds, I must be doing something right. I have also been picked by some of the higher end boat manufacturers to do their high end work, again I must have done somthing right to gain their business and their trust. Lckily for you you seem to have some knowledge in the 12 volt arena. Unfortunately for most they don't have that luxury so they seek out a professional like myself. I have done numerous boats for board members and I think if I was doing something wrong we would have read about it by now. I am not claiming to be an expert I am just stating what has worked for me in the past. If I was just your average stereo guy and built subpar systems I dont think I would have the reputation that I do.

ROZ
08-22-2004, 02:48 PM
Lckily for you you seem to have some knowledge in the 12 volt arena. Yes he does, but he was smater than us and got out a looooong time ago to make some real money :( :D

Havasu Hangin'
08-22-2004, 03:42 PM
Lckily for you you seem to have some knowledge in the 12 volt arena.
Sorry, but I don't really know anything about 12 volt stuff...
...I just read things on the internet.

riverbound
08-22-2004, 05:48 PM
Sorry, but I don't really know anything about 12 volt stuff...
...I just read things on the internet.
:D :D :D

riverbound
08-22-2004, 05:51 PM
Yes he does, but he was smater than us and got out a looooong time ago to make some real money :( :D
Not all of us are doing this full time anymore. :wink:
when oppurtunity knocks you gotta answer the door :)

edge99
08-23-2004, 08:21 AM
Thanks for all the information. I think I will be able to take this and build a pretty good system.

ROZ
08-23-2004, 08:29 AM
Not all of us are doing this full time anymore. :wink:
when oppurtunity knocks you gotta answer the door :)I know exactly what you mean ;) :D

edge99
08-23-2004, 06:04 PM
A few more questions and I'll leave everyone alone.
1. Should there be any filler material in the sub enclosure?
2. Should there be any baffles or covers on the back of the 6.5's?
3. What gage speaker wire should be used?
4. ROZ, what is the name of your store in Knoxville?
Thanks to everyone for their input.

ROZ
08-23-2004, 06:54 PM
A few more questions and I'll leave everyone alone.
1. Should there be any filler material in the sub enclosure?
2. Should there be any baffles or covers on the back of the 6.5's?
3. What gage speaker wire should be used?
4. ROZ, what is the name of your store in Knoxville?
Thanks to everyone for their input.
1. not necessarily, but polyfilt can be added without any consequence. Mostly used in smaller enclosures.
2. Again not necessary, but foam baffles can be used without consequence.
3. 12-14ga.
4. Tweeter Home Entertainment ;)