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View Full Version : Mufflers: Something Is Wrong Here



Not So Fast
03-11-2005, 09:41 AM
I just read an article that stated a Harley V twin idles at 95db's and that is legal in California, how can that be. The SEMA magazine for 2004 Dec. issue also had an article way in the back (page 100, 2004 "The Year in Review") that said and I have a hard time with this, any way it says that of approx. 3000 vehicles tested 90% passed the states exhaust noise test, WHICH IS 95db's under fair and predictable SAE test procedures. I'm not sure how this test was performed but it sure seems to me that the performance boating community is shall we say "taking it up the ass". Why are we singled out? We at least have the choice to be on a lake and accept the noise of a performance boat motor or not, you can leave right, but on the highways we have no choice and must endure little rice rockets that shatter your ear drums, 18 wheelers with "Jake Brakes, and Harleys that shake your car windows ( DON'T GET MAD BIKER BOYS & GIRLS, I'm not in favor of any of this crap) so why is the decible limit so much lower for a boat??? And as I understand these readings, if the test shows three more decibles it's twice as loud???? Seems like a little disparity here does it not? So if a "V" Twin can be legal at 95db's then why do we have to be at 88db's,WTF, we are getting the shaft as far as I can see and I hope this makes all California boaters ask their law makers to change this shit bird law, I'm out! NSF

Not So Fast
03-12-2005, 08:13 AM
WOW! Not one comment, I guess the muff issue isn't so big then! NSF

hotlavey
03-12-2005, 08:26 AM
WOW! Not one comment, I guess the muff issue isn't so big then! NSF
I think you hit the nail on the head. The issue was big enough to bitch about on this forum, but not big enough to actually do anything about it. I'm guilty too. I guess we were an easy target for the law-makers as we are not nearly as well organized and well funded as the environmentalists. I wonder just how hard the boat manufacturers fought this, if at all. It doesn't mean anything to them, they just jack the price and put on the mufflers. We end up paying the bill. All the after market companies now have another product to sell so why should they help us? We're screwed again.

Essex_Sterling
03-12-2005, 08:32 AM
We, the performance boating community, are getting screwed becasue we are un-organized. Also, the attitude that people take against the actons of the Lake Havasu Marina of "ahh screw it, I'll just launch somewhere else", does not help either.
What the Marina is doing is wrong and impacts all of us and we should all be united in preventing it from happening. And a boycott is not the way to do it since from what was explained to me from a very reliable Havasu resident is that the launch ramp only generates 10% of the marina's revenues. So they aren't losing out on money.
Sure, you may not launch at the Marina but you will feels its impact as the other launch facilities fill up becaue PERFECTLY LEGAL BOATS are being denied their right to launch at the PUBLIC Marina launch ramp. We as a group need to be organized against not only the Marina but also against any future law changes.

Screw LH Marina
03-12-2005, 08:46 AM
Absofigginlutely! I agree! We all need to get on the ball and fight the marina!

cdog
03-12-2005, 08:54 AM
There's an old saying about bikes. Loud bikes save life's. Agree or not it works for them.

cc322
03-12-2005, 10:23 AM
Why cant we get organized? such as surfrider foundation, Ijsba and other organazations that take a stand to protect our sport, just a thought :confused:

cc322
03-12-2005, 10:27 AM
How about this
PBA..Performance Boaters Assocation
HBA...Hot Boaters Assocation, any others...It could work ;) We've got absolutley nobody to speak or take a stand for us.

Havasu_Dreamin
03-12-2005, 10:31 AM
I've been sasying all along we need to get organized as a group to present our ideas about laws and regulations as one voice. Too many non-boaters think that everyone that goes to the river are drunks that drive around too fast with no respect to the laws and everything else around them. That is an image that we need to overcome. We need to show that all we like to do is have a good time in a safe manner.

locogringo
03-12-2005, 10:32 AM
How about this
PBA..Performance Boaters Assocation
HBA...Hot Boaters Assocation, any others...It could work ;) We've got absolutley nobody to speak or take a stand for us.
Spaise might get a little bit too upset if you went woth the Hot Boat Association. It would be using their "hot boat" rights since it is only attributed to their mag.
:D :D

Community
03-12-2005, 11:08 AM
I work at a Harley dealer and the poster we have posted reads as follows:
Manuf prior to 1/1/86 = 101 db
Manuf after 1/1/86 = 96
We stopped selling open exhaust as they are starting to clamp down on the bikes just like what everyone in the boating community has already felt. Basically, before the levels get pushed lower, I believe the industry in CA may be trying to police itself, through the Dealers Association as to not make the situation any worse.

Raisin Wake
03-12-2005, 12:56 PM
Spaise might get a little bit too upset if you went woth the Hot Boat Association. It would be using their "hot boat" rights since it is only attributed to their mag.
:D :D
The bowlers might get mad if we use the PBA.

hotlavey
03-12-2005, 01:21 PM
I've been sasying all along we need to get organized as a group to present our ideas about laws and regulations as one voice. Too many non-boaters think that everyone that goes to the river are drunks that drive around too fast with no respect to the laws and everything else around them. That is an image that we need to overcome. We need to show that all we like to do is have a good time in a safe manner.
You've seen all the stuff that goes on at the sandbar during a summer weekend, fits that image to a T. Sorry Havasu, but I think a lot of that image is deserved. I sure as hell won't take my family there anymore.

life's a river
03-12-2005, 01:45 PM
I agree with you hotlavey, I would never take my family there. (The sandbar). What is the real reason for the mufflers? The channel is the only place that I can think of that noise might be a prolem. Most of the stereo's are louder than the boats. I thought it was cool camping out at Echo Lodge when I was younger and getting woke up at the crack of dawn by a blown flat bottom. After all, we are at the river to have fun, not sleep. Are all of the marinas and launch ramps testing for noise?
LAR

hotlavey
03-12-2005, 01:56 PM
I agree with you hotlavey, I would never take my family there. (The sandbar). What is the real reason for the mufflers? The channel is the only place that I can think of that noise might be a prolem. Most of the stereo's are louder than the boats. I thought it was cool camping out at Echo Lodge when I was younger and getting woke up at the crack of dawn by a blown flat bottom. After all, we are at the river to have fun, not sleep. Are all of the marinas and launch ramps testing for noise?
LAR
You're so right. I loved that sound in the morning. I still do, but I guess that, along with alot of other good things, is on the way out.
I suppose if they're not testing yet, they soon will be from what I've heard. I'm doing the muffler thing just to be safe and it kills me because I love the sound of my boat. I wonder how long it will take them to figure out how to put speed-bumps on the river?

Not So Fast
03-12-2005, 02:18 PM
I for one would like to see a dock side test that if challenged in the courts would not be overturned.There is no way in hell to do an accurate test at a ramp during the summer. we should all know by now that there can be no ambient noise what so ever. How will they do an accurate test on the water if the distance and height are so crucial. Like the HB test that stated if the meter was lower than 4 ft the reading way up. It will be up to the officer to make a judgement call if you ask me.
The whole point of my post is why the huge disparity between Ca. law on the water vs on the road????? Isn't there a lawyer ( God ,did I just ask for a lawyer) who could champion a class action suit for prejudicial profiling of performance boats AND THAT IS WHAT THIS IS!!
NSF :2purples: :2purples: :2purples: :2purples: :2purples: :2purples:

life's a river
03-12-2005, 05:13 PM
Is it yesterday? What's up with the clock?
If they do the testing at the launch ramp with my exhaust below the swim step under water it will pass no problem. Do they check while still on the trailer? Are they checking at Katherines landing yet?
LAR

hotlavey
03-12-2005, 05:34 PM
Is it yesterday? What's up with the clock?
If they do the testing at the launch ramp with my exhaust below the swim step under water it will pass no problem. Do they check while still on the trailer? Are they checking at Katherines landing yet?
LAR
I think they need to do a little more maintenance on the timer.
Not sure how they check at Katherines or even if they do. I've heard both on the trailer and off at Havacrap.

Havasu_Dreamin
03-12-2005, 05:59 PM
You've seen all the stuff that goes on at the sandbar during a summer weekend, fits that image to a T. Sorry Havasu, but I think a lot of that image is deserved. I sure as hell won't take my family there anymore.
HL, you are correct, I have seen the stuff at the Sandbar and I choose not to go there. In fact, in the last year we have gone to the sandbar only once, and we had no kids with us. We usually go to quieter places on the lake. Havasu is a big enough lake to get away from all of the craziness that occurs at the Sandbar and Copper Canyon.
My point was that while there are plenty of people that due fit the sterotype of what non-boaters think performance boaters are, there are plenty on the other side of the coin that don't go for the drinking and party spots. We, as performance boaters, need to try and ensure that we are given our fair shake and inform non-performance boaters that we do not all fit the sterotypes. That's not to say that those do go to the Sandbar and Copper are bad people, hardly, they are engaging in activites that their freedoms afford them and more power to them, as long as it is legal.

Havasu_Dreamin
03-12-2005, 06:01 PM
Is it yesterday? What's up with the clock?
If they do the testing at the launch ramp with my exhaust below the swim step under water it will pass no problem. Do they check while still on the trailer? Are they checking at Katherines landing yet?
LAR
The LHC Marina tests after you are on the water. Don't know if they are doing any testing at Katherines or not.

Kilrtoy
03-12-2005, 06:08 PM
They are making there bikes and vehicles loud and it is illegal.....
sooner or later they will get caught....

Screw LH Marina
03-12-2005, 06:17 PM
The LHC Marina tests after you are on the water.
Yeah, can someone please explain that one to me? They don't own the water at all! Once you are on the water the only ones that conduct any noise testing are law enforcement agencies! LE is the only on that kick you off of the lake once you are launched! The people at the marina think they can do whatever they want, well they can't! They have a contract with the State and they should abide by it and they sure as hell should not be conducting any noise testing, it's illegal for them to do so!

phebus
03-12-2005, 06:29 PM
The LHC Marina tests after you are on the water. Don't know if they are doing any testing at Katherines or not.
Not always true. They had me back down in the lane closest the dock, and while the boat was still on the trailer, conducted the test. I had my wife and daughter sitting on the engine compartment to keep the rear of the boat down, and the exhaust under water.
It was only after I passed, that they said it was O.K. to launch. I assume if I had failed, he would have just had me drive it away without ever unhooking.

Screw LH Marina
03-12-2005, 06:38 PM
It was only after I passed, that they said it was O.K. to launch. I assume if I had failed, he would have just had me drive it away without ever unhooking.
And that is the BS of it all! Passed what? Their BS/illegal test that is not even conducted in accordance with ether law of AZ or CA? The whole idea that they conduct tests, administered inconsistently I might add if we believe what the HB article said, is ludicrous! They have no legal right to be conducting any tests! I've seen copies of letters that the State has sent the Marina explicitly saying that the job of conducting tests should be left to LE, not to some guy that has no idea what the hell it is he is doing!

Not So Fast
03-13-2005, 08:26 AM
And that is the BS of it all! Passed what? Their BS/illegal test that is not even conducted in accordance with ether law of AZ or CA? The whole idea that they conduct tests, administered inconsistently I might add if we believe what the HB article said, is ludicrous! They have no legal right to be conducting any tests! I've seen copies of letters that the State has sent the Marina explicitly saying that the job of conducting tests should be left to LE, not to some guy that has no idea what the hell it is he is doing!
Right on, I know the law was changed in Ca. but the biggest cause of this whole bunch of bull-shit is what LHM has done and the response on these boards to make the boating public think that the sky is falling. I still think that unless you have an extremely loud boat or you act like a jerkwad on the lake then you wont be hassled here unless you still want to use the f------G Marina, just be cool, I'm still going to wait and see before I put the un-needed, un-wanted ugly muff's on my boat!! NSF

life's a river
03-13-2005, 03:51 PM
I am keeping our boat as is. If we get a ticket, it will be delt with then.
I'll be staying away from LH Marina to avoid problems.
LAR

Screw LH Marina
03-13-2005, 04:21 PM
I'll be staying away from LH Marina to avoid problems.
LAR
But don't you see the problem with that approach? If your boat is legeal to be on the lake per the AZ law why should you have to go somehwere else to launch? You should be able to launch your legal boat at the maraina becasue they have NO legal right to be conducting any noise testing! Everyone taking the approach of I'll just launch somewhere else is the wrong attitude. That's letting them get away with what they are doing which is WRONG!

Mrs CP 19
03-13-2005, 04:28 PM
As far as the Marina goes...if everyone stayed away it might make a difference. As far as the original question, boats and Harley's, I agree 100% It is not fair. To be perfectly honest, it was a case of ignorance not realizing what the new law meant. We also have our own launch ramp on a somewhat uncrowded area of the river. We will be curious to see if the new law affects us....and in that lies the problem. Like the marina, people who are not affected, do nothing!

Havasu_Dreamin
03-13-2005, 04:37 PM
As far as the Marina goes...if everyone stayed away it might make a difference.
From what a well informed resident of Havasu told me, the launch ramp only accounts for ~10% of the Marina's revenue so simply not launching there does not have any real impact to them.

Rexone
03-13-2005, 04:49 PM
The first thing wrong is no one would pay attention in 2003 when there was a chance something could have actually been done with enough uproar.
Here are some threads from 2003 discussing the impending law "before it was inacted" and the need for people to fight it. Few bothered and there was no support from most the industry either including the vast majority of boat manufacturers and the largest trade assn in the US, the NMMA who actually endorsed it. Many of the builders in the local area were not even aware CA had a new law in the latter part of 2004, a full 6-8 months after it was enacted to start Jan 05. It shows just how inattentive both manufacturers and consumers alike are to impending legislation about to dramatically affect them. Not that the government made any big attempt to publicize it either naturally.
:hammerhea
http://www2.***boat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17998
http://www2.***boat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28836
http://www2.***boat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2124
http://www2.***boat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27145
There were other threads too. These are the ones I found doing a quick search.

roostwear
03-13-2005, 06:02 PM
As I remember (might be an Alzheimers thing), the SCMA, as well as other industry associations, reviewed and endorsed the bill. I assume you, as a board member, were involved in the review? Were there any changes suggested, or was it rubber stamped?

Rexone
03-13-2005, 06:10 PM
The SCMA was one of the few if not the only that actively opposed the bill. Without any industry or public support though it was easily passed with the punch of the Bluewater Network behind it.
The SCMA was one of the factors causing the implementation to be Jan 05 instead of Jan 04 as originally scripted.

life's a river
03-13-2005, 08:29 PM
I am not into Havasu as much as I used to be. I prefer Launglin/Lake Mojave. Staying away from LH Marina is no problem. When I do go to Havasu I usually launch at Windsor. Are they testing there as well?
LAR

Essex502
03-14-2005, 07:26 AM
The question in my mind is....how is the test on the Harley conducted? What SAE test procedure is used? How far away from the exhaust is the test conducted?
Not to minimize the noise issue on the water as I actively oppose the BS at the Lake Havasu Marina but we may be comparing apples to oranges.
We are organizing to fight this See the March issue of Hot Boat for the address to contribute to the legal fund. Some on this and other boards have contributed but we need more help. Time and dollars both.

Not So Fast
03-14-2005, 09:18 AM
like I said I am not sure how the test was run or what the SAE standards are BUT AND IT"S A BIG BUTT if the idle of a V twin is indeed 95 decibles and thats allowed and legal then something is wrong right here in river city,USA. NFS :2purples: :2purples: :2purples:

Essex502
03-14-2005, 01:53 PM
like I said I am not sure how the test was run or what the SAE standards are BUT AND IT"S A BIG BUTT if the idle of a V twin is indeed 95 decibles and thats allowed and legal then something is wrong right here in river city,USA. NFS :2purples: :2purples: :2purples:
You have to remember...the noise LAW in Arizona for watercraft is 86 dB(A) at 50 FEET away. A Harley (95 decibels) at a few feet away would be within the 86 decibels at 50 feet.
Information from the AMA:
Arizona noise law...
Maximum allowable A-weighted sound levels based on measurements taken at a distance of 50 ft from center lane of travel (R17-4-61. Motorcycle Noise Limits): Model Year/<=35mph/35-45mph/>45mph: Before 1972/84dba/88dba/88dba; 1972-1980/79dba/82dba/86dba; After 1980/76dba/80dba/83dba
That's actually quieter than the watercraft noise law.

Not So Fast
03-14-2005, 06:03 PM
I'm only quoting California laws, I know that AZ has not changed theirs. Thanks for the info though, NEVER GIVE UP, NEVER SAY DIE! Still going to wait and see, hate freekin mufflers. NSF

beach gomer
03-14-2005, 07:44 PM
the owner of coyote marine has said take a wait and see approach.He rents a house to the head sheriff from San Bernardino who patrols the ca side of the river.I was told that the ca sheriff's and the az sheriff's and also the head ranger from windsor beach meet to discuss this issue and they have all said they plan to do nothing about this issue.The head ranger even said he like the sound of the boats because he has a little flat bottom.i Also herd from one of the havasu pd boat capt and he said if your being an ass then that they will pull you over but they are not looking for people to ticket with loud boats.So if you go under the bridge and rev your engine that would be a good reason for a ticketthis marine thing has got everyone all worked up for no reason.just my 2cents.

Ultrafied
03-14-2005, 07:49 PM
As far as testing the Harley, I've gotten 2 tickets, but not for noise. It's been for modified exhaust. They (Newport and HB) never pulled out the decibel meter, but you knew it was for noise.
As far as the LHM, they may not have the "right" to stop me from launching, but I for one don't want to be a martyr. My weekends are too important. I'll just launch somewhere else. I don't really believe fighting LHM has any impact on the overall muffler enforcement. :220v:

Duck
03-14-2005, 08:56 PM
Got the same report from the very reliable Coyote man also, but still went ahead and threw a set of Gatlins on and LIKE the quieter sound. :D The longer tips also are leaving a lot less soot on the transom, getting me inside to my drinks faster.
On a side note, got my first ever bee sting this weekend in a cove near Copper Canyon. Easily removed stinger, flicked dead bee overboard, then had wife kiss my boo bo to make it better. The yellow jacket at age 13 hurt 1,000 times more. :burningm:

dbddbd
03-14-2005, 09:06 PM
Hmm, well stated! LOL

Essex502
03-15-2005, 08:18 AM
I'm only quoting California laws, I know that AZ has not changed theirs. Thanks for the info though, NEVER GIVE UP, NEVER SAY DIE! Still going to wait and see, hate freekin mufflers. NSF
here's the applicable sections of the California Laws:
Noise Restrictions
27200. (a) The Department of Motor Vehicles shall not register on a dealer's report of sale a new motor vehicle, except an off-highway motor vehicle subject to identification as provided in Division 16.5 (commencing with Section 38000), which produces a maximum noise exceeding the applicable noise limit at a distance of 50 feet from the centerline of travel under test procedures established by the Department of the California Highway Patrol.
(b) The Department of Motor Vehicles may accept a dealer's certificate as proof of compliance with this article.
(c) Test procedures for compliance with this article shall be established by the Department of the California Highway Patrol, taking into consideration the test procedures of the Society of Automotive Engineers.
(d) No person shall sell or offer for sale a new motor vehicle, except an off-highway motor vehicle subject to identification as provided in Division 16.5 (commencing with Section 38000), which produces a maximum noise exceeding the applicable noise limit specified in this article, and for which noise emission standards or regulations have not been adopted by the Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency pursuant to the Noise Control Act of 1972 (P.L. 92-574).
(e) No person shall sell or offer for sale a new motor vehicle, except an off-highway motor vehicle subject to identification as provided in Division 16.5 (commencing with Section 38000), which produces noise that exceeds or in any way violates the noise emission standards or regulations adopted for such a motor vehicle by the Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency pursuant to the Noise Control Act of 1972 (P.L. 92-574).
(f) As used in this section, the term "register" is equivalent to the term "licensing" as used in Section 6(e)(2) of the Noise Control Act of 1972 (P.L. 92-574).
27201. For the purposes of Section 27200, the noise limit of 92 dbA shall apply to any motorcycle manufactured before 1970.
27202. For the purposes of Section 27200, the following noise limits shall apply to any motorcycle, other than a motor-driven cycle, manufactured:
(1) After 1969, and before 1973 88 dbA
(2) After 1972, and before 1975 86 dbA
(3) After 1974, and before 1986 83 dbA
(4) After 1985 80 dbA
Looks like the California law on new motorcycles is 80 dB(A) @ 50'. This is more restrictive than the AZ 86 dB(A) at 50' for boats and CA 88 dB(A) at 39".

Stealth Marine
03-15-2005, 09:53 AM
Just a passing comment.
After a long wait we finally got our calibrated certified sound meter last week.
I had ordered a special unit that allows me to take a base sound reading to establish the ambient background noise level and then deduct that out to acheive a true sound level for the test.
Spent some time down at Windsor the other day just taking causual readings of different people's boats as I was learning how the units works in the real world.
What I can say is that MOST of the boats down there were over the limits, and in MANY cases not by 5db, but by 15-20!
There were even a few boats with through drive exhaust below the water line that were putting out too much noise. It was an interesting exercise in learning just what the real output levels were on a variety of boats.

Essex502
03-15-2005, 09:57 AM
It is pretty interesting to see what real world noise is with our boats. My eyes have been opened since this whole $hit hit the fan!