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View Full Version : Who's 1st to SC a RayLar?



Beer-30
04-13-2005, 09:52 AM
Being an HO owner, and avid modifier, I have been following this whole RayLar thing. After I settle from this 1st year of boat owner ship and going way bigger than I planned, I will be looking for those types of mods.
However, since there is really no additional pressure on the bottom-end, who will be the first to SC one? Whipple or ProCharger with same amount of boost for a stock 496; Stage1 3.5lb, Stage2 5lb. It would need to be a similar kit as a 500 / 525 HP since the airflow would be similar (and more than the HO was).
I would take a guess at 680-725HP with turn-key reliability of a stock 496HO? Yikes.
I can't be the first to think of this.

dicudmore
04-13-2005, 09:56 AM
Being an HO owner, and avid modifier, I have been following this whole RayLar thing. After I settle from this 1st year of boat owner ship and going way bigger than I planned, I will be looking for those types of mods.
However, since there is really no additional pressure on the bottom-end, who will be the first to SC one? Whipple or ProCharger with same amount of boost for a stock 496; Stage1 3.5lb, Stage2 5lb. It would need to be a similar kit as a 500 / 525 HP since the airflow would be similar (and more than the HO was).
I would take a guess at 680-725HP with turn-key reliability of a stock 496HO? Yikes.
I can't be the first to think of this.
are you my evil twin?? :D

phebus
04-13-2005, 09:57 AM
With or without the Raylar kit, you would still have to deal with the same problem of pistons and lower end that supercharging any 496 has.

Beer-30
04-13-2005, 10:00 AM
Could be! I was looking at Cheetah 29s also. There was (I think still is..) the one in Phoenix with HO/Procharger. Blue tribal open-mid cuddy. It's been for sale for coming up on a year now. Don't know why. Never looked at it.
We have to think up these things when we have 5000+ lbs of boat to push.
The B-1s and B-1Xs would not think highly of the situation.

prosthogod
04-13-2005, 10:03 AM
I'm looking into the procharger as we speak. It's ~4200.00, and an increase of ~20mph in my HTMsr24. I can bolt it on myself in ~8 hrs. I will still get 4-500 hrs out of the motor. So why would I spend all that money for a Raylar or az speed kit. If it blows up after 500 hrs I'll get another one.

Beer-30
04-13-2005, 10:03 AM
With or without the Raylar kit, you would still have to deal with the same problem of pistons and lower end that supercharging any 496 has.
Haven't heard of any....real incidents....anyway. Only speculation. GT doesn't seem to have a problem with the bottom end. RayLar doesn't either until the lift of the cam gets too high for the valve relief issue. Sure, they are still cast pistons and will only take so much. 3.5 or even 5 lbs of intercooled boost is not that much.

Phat Matt
04-13-2005, 10:10 AM
Haven't heard of any....real incidents....anyway. Only speculation. GT doesn't seem to have a problem with the bottom end. RayLar doesn't either until the lift of the cam gets too high for the valve relief issue. Sure, they are still cast pistons and will only take so much. 3.5 or even 5 lbs of intercooled boost is not that much.
So buy new pistons...
http://www.raylarengine.com/rings.htm

Dave C
04-13-2005, 10:37 AM
I checked it out.
To go big (over 600 real HP), you need to change the heads and rods & pistons. Which, IMHO DOESN'T COST THAT MUCH!!! because after its blown up you have to do it anyway ;)
Raylar has h-beam rods and forged pistons available. With those new heads and a new throttle body, there ya go (8 lbs +)! :2purples:
I would NOT put more than a few lbs of blower boost to the stock 496 with the sh*tty stock combustion chamber, pistons and rods. But with 5 lbs of boost,you can get 600 + HP which ain't too shabby!
You have to run 91 octane with a stock 496 and the blower for a good reason, (if you know what I mean) ;)
Plus with more than 600 HP and a big boat you need to shell out $$ for extra drive parts.
But f-it its only money! either way, just do it! :) :wink:

shadow
04-13-2005, 10:59 AM
So buy new pistons...
http://www.raylarengine.com/rings.htm
Thats my plan after this season,I'm going to yank my engine throw it on an engine stand in the garage and as i get the $$$ use my 496 block with my Raylar heads and intake and bullet proof the lower end with Raylar crank,rods & pistons.Supercharger then may be in the future if it's feasable before the season begins or just build it up and supercharge at a later date.

FASTERDAMITT
04-13-2005, 11:42 AM
Don't forget increasing the capacity of the closed cooling system. I'm sure any more than 600 your going to have a heat dissapation issue.

Beer-30
04-13-2005, 03:15 PM
I checked it out.
To go big (over 600 real HP), you need to change the heads and rods & pistons. Which, IMHO DOESN'T COST THAT MUCH!!! because after its blown up you have to do it anyway ;)
Raylar has h-beam rods and forged pistons available. With those new heads and a new throttle body, there ya go (8 lbs +)! :2purples:
I would NOT put more than a few lbs of blower boost to the stock 496 with the sh*tty stock combustion chamber, pistons and rods. But with 5 lbs of boost,you can get 600 + HP which ain't too shabby!
You have to run 91 octane with a stock 496 and the blower for a good reason, (if you know what I mean) ;)
Plus with more than 600 HP and a big boat you need to shell out $$ for extra drive parts.
But f-it its only money! either way, just do it! :) :wink:
Slow down there, cowboy.
That's the easy way. Anyone can just build a blower motor and get it over with. My point is, the RayLar kit is not adding any pressure to the bottom end. All it is really doing is opening up the flow of the motor, and getting rid of the supposedly crappy combustion chambers. But, it's not throwing stress on the bottom end, right?
Ok. Now. Many many Procharger and Whipple kits are out there running successfully on bone-stock HO's. Ask anybody who has one. Ask GT, who installs them (well, Whipple anyway, didn't want to be brand specific) and he'll say (as he has before) it's the best bang for the buck. So, obviously, the bottom end will hold it.
Now just put the two together. The only thing you are adding is the stress that the SC puts on the bottom end. Sure, it's gonna let go at some point. I've also been reading about a lot of 600+HP custom built motors that are letting go and only running 100 or so hours.
Looking at that theory, it would work. I was just curious if anyone was thinking the same thing. I would assume RayLar would be the first to try it,having dyno ability and all. Plus, it's their baby. The supporting items would need upping (heat xchanger, oil cooler, throttle body, fuel pump/rails).

mike37
04-13-2005, 03:38 PM
Being an HO owner, and avid modifier, I have been following this whole RayLar thing. After I settle from this 1st year of boat owner ship and going way bigger than I planned, I will be looking for those types of mods.
However, since there is really no additional pressure on the bottom-end, who will be the first to SC one? Whipple or ProCharger with same amount of boost for a stock 496; Stage1 3.5lb, Stage2 5lb. It would need to be a similar kit as a 500 / 525 HP since the airflow would be similar (and more than the HO was).
I would take a guess at 680-725HP with turn-key reliability of a stock 496HO? Yikes.
I can't be the first to think of this.
that was my plan from the first I herd of the raylar kit
just wating to see how it all work out

Beer-30
04-13-2005, 03:46 PM
It's nice not being in a hurry, as I want to see who else jumps on the 496 head bandwagon. Edelbrock is usually first with new apps, but doesn't appear so in this case.
TrickFlow has been following along very well. I could see them getting in on this.
Maybe there will be others. It's not just the boat app, trucks need love too! Smog issues come into play with that one.

h2oski2fast
04-13-2005, 04:01 PM
My point is, the RayLar kit is not adding any pressure to the bottom end.
Where did you dream up this senario? ANYTIME you add torque or HP to an engine there will be added strain on the internal parts (rotating assembly).
I guess I'm not one to go out and to try and gain 2 mph here 2 mph there. I prefer the Jackpunx style, this SC 500hp isn't fast enough so I'm gonna go build a MOTOR!!!!!!!

shadow
04-13-2005, 04:06 PM
It's nice not being in a hurry, as I want to see who else jumps on the 496 head bandwagon. Edelbrock is usually first with new apps, but doesn't appear so in this case.
TrickFlow has been following along very well. I could see them getting in on this.
Maybe there will be others. It's not just the boat app, trucks need love too! Smog issues come into play with that one.
The heads are just the beginning.If you saw the stock 496 intake off you would understand,looks can be very decieving.It's no wonder why this engine is choked up.

shadow
04-13-2005, 04:08 PM
Where did you dream up this senario? ANYTIME you add torque or HP to an engine there will be added strain on the internal parts (rotating assembly).
I guess I'm not one to go out and to try and gain 2 mph here 2 mph there. I prefer the Jackpunx style, this SC 500hp isn't fast enough so I'm gonna go build a MOTOR!!!!!!!
I think we'd all give our left nut for Marks motor. :D
Keep in mind Beer - 30 has read up aloton the 496. J/k don't get all wadded up. ;) :D

Beer-30
04-13-2005, 04:11 PM
Where did you dream up this senario? ANYTIME you add torque or HP to an engine there will be added strain on the internal parts (rotating assembly).
And you've built engines for how long?
Usually, gaining more horsepower is done by boost (more cylinder pressure) or compression (more cylinder pressure). Um, moving more air/fuel more efficiently through with anywhere around the same cylinder pressure is just increasing VOLUMETRIC EFFICIENCY. Next time follow along.

Beer-30
04-13-2005, 04:13 PM
Thanks SHADOW. I'm not trying to sell anything here, I just brought up an idea and a few facts to support it. Sheez.

h2oski2fast
04-13-2005, 04:48 PM
And you've built engines for how long?
Usually, gaining more horsepower is done by boost (more cylinder pressure) or compression (more cylinder pressure). Um, moving more air/fuel more efficiently through with anywhere around the same cylinder pressure is just increasing VOLUMETRIC EFFICIENCY. Next time follow along.
OK? So how does a larger cylinder volume create more power without adding strain to the rotating assembly? Doesn't the added volume create more? If so, doesn't it have to transfer the power through the piston, through the rod, through the crank? Doesn't it put added strain on these parts? So if you were to make a 496 flow well enough to make 800hp, it wouldn't put any extra strain on these parts? Then the manufacturer shouldn't have any objections to warranty these parts if they failed do to "VOLUMETRIC EFFICIENCY", and not to increased power. I think you need to go back and reread your Hot Rod magazine and have your auto shop teacher explain it.
I guess you're right, I've never built engines before, except for this one:
http://www.hillbankusa.com/signfx/turbo510.jpg
:D :D :D

INSman
04-13-2005, 05:00 PM
Okay, I am ready to see how this all shakes out from here !!! :D
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/2294popcorn2-med.gif

Jrocket
04-13-2005, 05:10 PM
And you've built engines for how long?
Usually, gaining more horsepower is done by boost (more cylinder pressure) or compression (more cylinder pressure). Um, moving more air/fuel more efficiently through with anywhere around the same cylinder pressure is just increasing VOLUMETRIC EFFICIENCY. Next time follow along.
I see what your thinking,but any time you bring the hp level up things will have more stress on them.Compression,forced induction or even just clearing up the air flow path is going to add some strain on parts,even the bottom end.What YOUR getting at is(I think)there isnt any more static compression or boost compression to load the rods,crank and bearings with over the stock HO setup?
Now if your going to add a Raylar kit and then add a Whipple later but keep the stock short block then that wouldnt be a smart move in my opinion.First you will have an intake manifold that wont be used.Doesnt Raylars kit include one?Thats one of the key things that they use to make power,straightening out the air path and change the speed of the air flow,but I could be wrong there.Now all you will have is their cam and heads left wich will still be on top of a stock short block with cast pistons?Seems the best bet would be to eother sell the HO for some good money and have Raylar build a motor for you with all of their parts and have them add a Whipple or what ever or just tear the stock short block down and have Raylars parts put in.If they can tune the MEFI systems for their kits then they will have no problem doing a Whipple,or I wouldnt think so.

dexman38
04-13-2005, 05:12 PM
here we go remenber lets all play nice!I ordered the raylar for my shockwave 29 mag.That will be the only mod I do to my boat. Well thats the lie I tell myself. :)

Jrocket
04-13-2005, 05:16 PM
http://www.hillbankusa.com/signfx/turbo510.jpg
Nice! I can see Gentry water cooled housing turbo's,intercooler and manifolds.Single plane manifold,draw through setup with internal wastegates but what Im stumped on is the O2 sensor or egt sensor in the side of the manifold?Whats your story fast man?
You did a nice job on that motor!

h2oski2fast
04-13-2005, 05:19 PM
I'm not saying anything bad about any of these systems. I was simply commenting on a on a statement that I concidered, through experience) incorrect. Thats all.

h2oski2fast
04-13-2005, 05:26 PM
Nice! I can see Gentry water cooled housing turbo's,intercooler and manifolds.Single plane manifold,draw through setup with internal wastegates but what Im stumped on is the O2 sensor or egt sensor in the side of the manifold?Whats your story fast man?
You did a nice job on that motor!
Just a pyrometer setup. The reason it is highlighted was to show someone on the boards in another post where it was located on the Gentry package. I have raised around turbo motors most of my life. Do I claim to be an expert? No, just a hobbiest!

Jrocket
04-13-2005, 06:22 PM
Just a pyrometer setup. The reason it is highlighted was to show someone on the boards in another post where it was located on the Gentry package. I have raised around turbo motors most of my life. Do I claim to be an expert? No, just a hobbiest!
I am the only certified expert on anything in here,just ask me! :p
What did that motor come out of.Ski boat maybe?

Beer-30
04-13-2005, 10:00 PM
Ya know what? You're absolutely right. I have just experienced brain-fart of the highest caliber. I have to apologize to all. I guess I got so tied up in flows and efficiencies that I completely forgot that all the extra power has to get to the crank flange. Uggghh. Sorry. I can't even explain why I let that slip.
H2, thanks for unf@#*ing me. I just wasn't following the HP train below the heads.
It would run at idle, though! ay yai yai.

Kilrtoy
04-13-2005, 11:09 PM
With the exception of SHADOW...
WHO ELES HAS A RAYLAR KIT and I dont mean on order.. In the boat preforming with no problems and has hours and use on it..... :idea:

496POWER
04-14-2005, 01:54 AM
If you just want 600 HP from a 496 - You dont even need a blower - just take the BCK 106 Kit from Raylar and his forged pistons, rods, crankshaft,throttle body and headers and you get a bulletproof 600 HP 496
all the weak parts will be changed to raylars forged parts
If You want more HP - take Raylars forged crankshaft, rods and supercharger pistons , the aluminium heads and his supercharger cam and you will be able to get into the 700 - 800 HP club --
and you will still be far away from the 64000.00 $ that Mercury wants for his 600 HP engine

Raylar
04-14-2005, 07:17 AM
Anybody needing info on actual boats in the water with Raylar kits can PM me or call our toll free number @(866-496-8181 and I will be glad to give references to at least 10 boats around the country already in the water which have our kits on and running. Those who have the May issue of Hot Boat can turn to the factual un-biased tech article on Chris Winns beautiful boat and read the facts. We at Raylar are very appreciative of those great boaters and dealers who stuck their necks out to take the first chances on our products. The nice thing about great parts with good solid engineering is that they speak for themselves. Stay posted, lots of new goodies on the way for the 496. As for the delivery issue on our parts, we are producing them as fast as we can and still maintain the quality and performance of the parts. We will have new kits ready for shipment over approximatly the next two weeks and we expect to have our dealers stocking their inventories later this month when we get ahead of on order kits. There are a lot of great dealers, parts and engine builders in the performance boating industry and we are proud to make a contribution to a great industry. Don't forget to Buy American!! Your jobs depend on it!!
Ray @ Raylar

HavasuDreamin'
04-14-2005, 07:35 AM
So how much is this Raylar kit? At least $5K right????? By the time you spend $5K on a Raylar kit and $6K - $7K on a Whipple, you could have sold the 496 HO and had Infomaniac build you a real blower motor.
Bottom line is be happy with the 496 HO or "possibly" add one or the other mentioned above, but not both. It doesn't make sense financially.
HD

Chris Winn
04-14-2005, 07:47 AM
With the exception of SHADOW...
WHO ELES HAS A RAYLAR KIT and I dont mean on order.. In the boat preforming with no problems and has hours and use on it..... :idea:
ive got one!, and the kit has been trouble free for the 5-6 hours i have on it so far.

It's Only Money
04-14-2005, 07:49 AM
You guys have a great kit so don't take this the wrong way...but...
Those who have the May issue of Hot Boat can turn to the factual un-biased tech article on Chris Winns beautiful boat and read the facts.
Using the words "unbiased" and "factual" in the same sentance as "Hot Boat" as in magazine is pretty funny. When have you ever read an unbiased, uninfluenced (sp?) review of an advertiser in Hot Boat? Ever?
Don't even think about boosting the 496's without replacing the bottom end components. Cast is for trucks. Forged baby!

Chris Winn
04-14-2005, 07:50 AM
i have allready begun my next project,
i am going to build a 496 stroker
Raylar has been working on a stroker crank with matched rods and pistons, once i build the bottom end over the summer i am going to take the heads off the old motor and put either a 3.3 whipple on it or a twin turbo kit on it (both sound like fun)
i am planning on a very reliable 700+ horsepower
i allready have a 496 shortblock i am stripping right now in order to get started on.
sounds like fun huh....

Beer-30
04-14-2005, 08:29 AM
No, I'm not jealous. Not a bit. And did I mention I'm not jealous?
Yeah, right.

Dave C
04-14-2005, 09:28 AM
Beer30.. I like the way you think! ;) cuz I was thinking the same thing! (Raylar plus whipple)
I have to disagree with your statement here. Doing this will add stress. The OE components were not designed for the added pressure on the bottom end of the blower let alone the two taken together.
IMO the 496 has to be the single biggest POS perpetuated on the nice people of the boating world!!! :devil: Sure the S/C's work good up to a few lbs of boost but nothing after that, so whats the point?
The combustion chamber is not good, hence the detonation. Stock 496's can only take up to a certain level of boost not necessarily because of the bottom end but because of detonation issues (lost power). Any more than a few lbs of boost and they need different heads and pistons? The valve train ain't stellar either.
If you want to do both, you need to upgrade the bottom end and top end. Specifically those hypertetic pistons, rods, rod bolts, rockers, valves, retainers, keepers, springs and probably the crank. (all available from Raylar)
(If I get permission) ;), I am gonna open my up my 496 for a Raylar BCK106 kit and we will see whats inside and report back!
Until Raylar came along with all his new goodies, I was seriously thinking of throwing away the 496 and bulding a new mark IV EFI motor.
BTW Chris Winn stole my idea ;)
Slow down there, cowboy.
That's the easy way. Anyone can just build a blower motor and get it over with. My point is, the RayLar kit is not adding any pressure to the bottom end. All it is really doing is opening up the flow of the motor, and getting rid of the supposedly crappy combustion chambers. But, it's not throwing stress on the bottom end, right?
Ok. Now. Many many Procharger and Whipple kits are out there running successfully on bone-stock HO's. Ask anybody who has one. Ask GT, who installs them (well, Whipple anyway, didn't want to be brand specific) and he'll say (as he has before) it's the best bang for the buck. So, obviously, the bottom end will hold it.
Now just put the two together. The only thing you are adding is the stress that the SC puts on the bottom end. Sure, it's gonna let go at some point. I've also been reading about a lot of 600+HP custom built motors that are letting go and only running 100 or so hours.
Looking at that theory, it would work. I was just curious if anyone was thinking the same thing. I would assume RayLar would be the first to try it,having dyno ability and all. Plus, it's their baby. The supporting items would need upping (heat xchanger, oil cooler, throttle body, fuel pump/rails).
But to answer your question if I had the choice I would do the following (in order):
1) throw away the 496, build large N/A efi mark IV
2) throw away 496, Whipple 3.3, and build a mark IV EFI and turn the blower up to 8 lbs.
3) 496 with Raylar kit, no blower.
(as you can see I didn't get my 1st choice) :mad: :mad:

Essex502
04-14-2005, 10:24 AM
With the lack of a stout bottom end (crank and rods) I'd be unlikely to upgrade a 496 at all. I've broken cast cranks drag racing by increasing the horsepower via intake, carb, cam and headers and wouldn't want to do it in a boat. No thanks. Upgrading needs a stout platform. It's like adding 4 stories to a 1 story building when the foundation and structure of the 1 story building wasn't meant to support the additional 4 floors.

Dave C
04-14-2005, 10:36 AM
No kidding, Cast casts are relatively strong but if pushed too hard they will break, no one knows just when..... Its kind of like being the crash test dummy.
With the lack of a stout bottom end (crank and rods) I'd be unlikely to upgrade a 496 at all. I've broken cast cranks drag racing by increasing the horsepower via intake, carb, cam and headers and wouldn't want to do it in a boat. No thanks. Upgrading needs a stout platform. It's like adding 4 stories to a 1 story building when the foundation and structure of the 1 story building wasn't meant to support the additional 4 floors.

Beer-30
04-14-2005, 10:39 AM
Well, when it breaks, it's nice to know there will be a forged one ready to replace (with more stroke, I might add). But till then.....

Dave C
04-14-2005, 10:51 AM
what about all the rods, pistons and maybe even some cylinder walls that you have to buy after it breaks?? :hammerhea
BTW I like this motor up till about 600 HP. We are gonna take a real close look at the crank BEFORE I do my install and I will share what we find out!
Well, when it breaks, it's nice to know there will be a forged one ready to replace (with more stroke, I might add). But till then.....

Chris Winn
04-14-2005, 12:16 PM
raylar has been working with a company on the cranks and they will be forged in both stock configuration and forged
i belive the crank is callies and the rod are oliver with Mahle pistons.
witht he use of ARP bolts, the combo sounds pretty stout to me....

Essex502
04-14-2005, 12:45 PM
what about all the rods, pistons and maybe even some cylinder walls that you have to buy after it breaks?? :hammerhea
BTW I like this motor up till about 600 HP. We are gonna take a real close look at the crank BEFORE I do my install and I will share what we find out!
Exactly! The last one I broke took 6 rods with it and several pistons...oh, yeah, dinged up the block pretty good too!
I'd wait and build it from scratch when you have the "scratch".

prosthogod
04-14-2005, 12:59 PM
If I had to do it all over again it would be a bolt together fuel injected 540 block with off the shelf parts that are readily available. It would be a solid 650hp and run for 500hrs+.