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View Full Version : Cost Vs Quality



Boozer
04-14-2005, 01:53 PM
As the construction on my fathers house nears completion I started looking at a lot of the small details and it got me thinking about things.
Back in 95 my father had considered doing an addition to this house that would add not just a family room to the rear of the house but also a second story with a master bedroom and an additional bedroom. The plans were done and everything was ready to go. The cost was going to be $80,000.00. Unfortunately my parents marriage went south and it never happened.
In December we went ahead and started construction but this time the plans were a little different. We added a family room and extended the size of the kitchen. Total sqft added is 672. The initial estimate was $79,000.00 and the contractor gave his word he would stay as close to that figure as possible. Well the cost is now nearing $130,000.00. Of course some of that is our fault because we did some things that we knew were going to be extra like the surround sound system, upgraded cabinets, hard wood and ceramic tile floors, new windows through the whole house and a couple other things but none the less I still dont see how the cost got to the figure it did.
Now comes to the quality issue. The quality of these guys work has been shit. Everytime a project is completed by these guys I have to go over it and 99% of the time I find flaws that they need to correct. I have had to supervise this entire project from start to finish and I thought that was why a person hired a General Contractor in the first place but according to most people I have talked to their experiences have all been similar to mine.
It also seems that a sense of urgency is not something these guys have and when they do start to get a sense of urgency they royally f*ck up everything they touch. The kitchen cabinets were installed almost 2 weeks ago and we are still waiting for the granite counter tops. The GC says "I am trying to locate the granite you guys wanted." Funny last time I was at Lowes and Home Depot both seemed to have plenty in stock. They started building the fireplace last Friday and at this point theres only a firebox and the premolded mantle we bought hanging above it no dry wall at this point.
So I'm curious. How is it that costs have gone up so high in a 10 year period but the quality has gone down dramatically? Where is all this added money going? It's definitely not going to labor because I'm sure he found 90% of his guys from day labor places and gave them a ten minute tutorial with a drill and hammer. Has material cost gone up that much?
For those of you considering a remodel I'd like to make a few suggestions. Take at least 5 bids I only took 3. Check refferances and dont just call on the phone go see them in person look at the quality of work that is done I called and talked to about 10 people that were ecstatic with the job these guys did some offered to let me come down and look at the work that was done I took their word for it and never went and seen it which was a BIG mistake on my part.
Also, one other tip. If you plan to do your windows be prepared to run into a lot of flakes. I have had about 8 window people out here and some seem to be really good and on the ball but their prices are about 2-3X higher then most everyone else. The good priced guys are total flakes I have 3 guys who were suppose to call me back the next day to set up an appointment to come get the job done. The next day was 2 weeks ago.
I'll post some pictures later.

speedneeder
04-14-2005, 02:09 PM
Having been the construction bus. for the past 20 years I'll give you my perspective. With more people refinancing cash out for additions there has been an influx of contractors. Many of these contractors would never be in business under more typical conditions and a lot of them Most of them rely on corrections from the inspector as guidelines on how to perform their work and most homeowners dont know quality outside of the finish. I can tell you most qualified contractors I know are backlogged 7-9 months. Prior to entering into contract look at how long they have been in business, how long they have had a contractors license and most of all check references, cant stress that enough. When checking references ask about schedule completion, correction notices from inspecting agencies and quality from people in the know.

HCS
04-14-2005, 02:23 PM
I just recently had alot of work done to my house. Some done buy contractors but most I did myself. Your way better off doing your own work if you have the ability.
When ever anyone works on your house, you are the boss! You must inspect all the work being completed as it's done. It's your house. Your the one that lives there so you have to make the calls.

Schiada76
04-14-2005, 02:35 PM
If you didn't sign a change order for each and every change completed on your project you don't have to pay for them. If you did sign the change you would know why the price increased so much. We average twentyfive to thirty change orders on a $100,000 to $200,000 contract. Quality help has been driven out of the area due to illegals depressing the wages.

Ziggy
04-14-2005, 02:56 PM
Being rather handy I've done 90% of my own remodeling, and being somewhat of a perfectionist I have a tendency to overbuild things.
.
When I've hired contractors I have on occassion put a finish date clause in the contract with finacial penalties if not completed within the specified time.

Beer Factor
04-14-2005, 03:14 PM
I've Been a landscape contractor for 15 years and with all the new homes being built, it isn't hard to find work. Therefore most contractors are bumping their prices up. Most homeowners tell me they call 8 to 10 contractors and they might get two return calls.

EricU
04-14-2005, 03:29 PM
As the construction on my fathers house nears completion I started looking at a lot of the small details and it got me thinking about things.
Back in 95 my father had considered doing an addition to this house that would add not just a family room to the rear of the house but also a second story with a master bedroom and an additional bedroom. The plans were done and everything was ready to go. The cost was going to be $80,000.00. Unfortunately my parents marriage went south and it never happened.
In December we went ahead and started construction but this time the plans were a little different. We added a family room and extended the size of the kitchen. Total sqft added is 672. The initial estimate was $79,000.00 and the contractor gave his word he would stay as close to that figure as possible. Well the cost is now nearing $130,000.00. Of course some of that is our fault because we did some things that we knew were going to be extra like the surround sound system, upgraded cabinets, hard wood and ceramic tile floors, new windows through the whole house and a couple other things but none the less I still dont see how the cost got to the figure it did.
Now comes to the quality issue. The quality of these guys work has been shit. Everytime a project is completed by these guys I have to go over it and 99% of the time I find flaws that they need to correct. I have had to supervise this entire project from start to finish and I thought that was why a person hired a General Contractor in the first place but according to most people I have talked to their experiences have all been similar to mine.
It also seems that a sense of urgency is not something these guys have and when they do start to get a sense of urgency they royally f*ck up everything they touch. The kitchen cabinets were installed almost 2 weeks ago and we are still waiting for the granite counter tops. The GC says "I am trying to locate the granite you guys wanted." Funny last time I was at Lowes and Home Depot both seemed to have plenty in stock. They started building the fireplace last Friday and at this point theres only a firebox and the premolded mantle we bought hanging above it no dry wall at this point.
So I'm curious. How is it that costs have gone up so high in a 10 year period but the quality has gone down dramatically? Where is all this added money going? It's definitely not going to labor because I'm sure he found 90% of his guys from day labor places and gave them a ten minute tutorial with a drill and hammer. Has material cost gone up that much?
For those of you considering a remodel I'd like to make a few suggestions. Take at least 5 bids I only took 3. Check refferances and dont just call on the phone go see them in person look at the quality of work that is done I called and talked to about 10 people that were ecstatic with the job these guys did some offered to let me come down and look at the work that was done I took their word for it and never went and seen it which was a BIG mistake on my part.
Also, one other tip. If you plan to do your windows be prepared to run into a lot of flakes. I have had about 8 window people out here and some seem to be really good and on the ball but their prices are about 2-3X higher then most everyone else. The good priced guys are total flakes I have 3 guys who were suppose to call me back the next day to set up an appointment to come get the job done. The next day was 2 weeks ago.
I'll post some pictures later.
I have been a contractor and in construction for about 25 years now and your story is nothing new. It might sound harsh, but it usually the homeowners fault. Most homeowners will go for the lowest bid and wonder what happened. You need to get references BEFORE you ask for a bid. This includes talking to the references and asking to see the work that was done for them. You would be surprised at how much people are willing to show off their home when someone has done a good job for them.
As an example, when I do stamped concrete work, the minimum amount that I charge is $18 per square foot. Many times due to the complexity of a project, the price will be over $30 a square foot. If they squawk about the price, I just leave and let them have someone else do the work. I have many times come back after some other “contractor” has screwed up the work, and yes it does cost them more. I do top quality work and if something goes wrong, I fix it on my own dime. If the homeowner changes something, they pay for it, and I will not start anything that is not in the original contract without a signed change order. And I will not take a verbal change order.
It has always amazed me how people have no problem having a real estate agent charge them for selling or buying a house, but when a contractor wants to charge enough to make a profit on top of the workman's comp, liability insurances, bookkeepers, vehicles, tools and everything else it takes to run a legit business, we get called thieves! I do not work for the fun of it, though I love my work. And if I am going to lose money or just break even then well, I have a boat for wakeboarding and drinking beer on.
I have been in business long enough and have enough clientele that I do not need to advertise for work. I do still have to bid projects, but I also have the ability to turn down projects when I don’t trust someone.
So remember, not only to get referrals, but also an estimated time lime. Don’t change the plans half way through (or else plan on paying for it) and have a plan to start. Don’t expect the contractor to do your designing for free.

speedneeder
04-14-2005, 03:38 PM
Well said Eric.

ROZ
04-14-2005, 03:38 PM
Boozer, I thought you had left the state.......

Boozer
04-14-2005, 03:49 PM
Boozer, I thought you had left the state.......
Still here for a few promised my father I wouldn't leave until the construction is done because there are a few projects I'm doing for him when the contractor finishes. I may end up working for a fellow board member here in so cal so we'll see what happens.

HCS
04-14-2005, 03:56 PM
Take this in consideration Boozer.
I totally stripped my front yard with a mini Cat. Drive way and all.
I poored my own driveway, install sprinklers and landscaping, rock, boarder strips and all. Doing it all myself, purchasing just about everything wholesale through my connections. I even got to use the Cat and dump truck for FREE.
It cost me close to $8500.00. Most estimates I got were around $20,000.00. :220v:
When you hire people it aint cheep.

HCS
04-14-2005, 04:00 PM
Still here for a few promised my father I wouldn't leave until the construction is done because there are a few projects I'm doing for him when the contractor finishes. I may end up working for a fellow board member here in so cal so we'll see what happens.
You should check out Trident boats. Maybe Wes might have something for ya. :cool: