60 HP With Muffler and Intake?

[goneboatin]

I talked to Lyndon at Wester's Garage about some changes to my computer tune and he told me he has a remote location in So Cal. He gave me the number and I called them up. The guy told me of a muffler called an Aero Turbine muffler combined with an AFE intake netted 60 rear wheel horsepower on an 8.1! That's right 60 hp. I find that hard to believe.
I checked out Aero-Turbine on their website and it shows a jet engine looking muffler that claims to reduce backpressure. In fact, it says it works like an expansion chamber creating a vacuum. It all sounds good, but isn't too little backpressure bad for low end? The sound clips sound kind of flatulant.
I was wondering if anyone on the boards has any experience with this muffler.
Aero Turbine (http://www.aero-turbine.com)

[slingingsmoke]

If you get hedders, full exhaust, AFE PG7 intake (stage 2 if they have it), and a chip, then MAYBE you can get 60 hp at the flywheel (not rear wheel HP) out of the 8.1
There are quite a few guys that run the Aero turbine mufflers on their diesel trucks on TDS or oilburners.net. I'm not going to bother with any muffler or CAT convrter soon anyway. For a diesel, straight pipe is the cheapest way to get your EGT's down. However for a Gasser, straight pipe will hurt bottom end due to the fact that gassers need backpressure. Hope this helps.
Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see!
Good luck, JON.

[goneboatin]

For a gasser this sounded too good to be true. I was curious if anyone has run these mufflers on their truck. Good, bad, POS, too loud, too quiet????

[ADDICTED]

There is a chance you can sometimes see a peak horsepower increase in the 40 area. But I am sure there wasn't any and maybe loss of lower end torque. Alot of the numbers you see these companys claiming is peak horse power. What about the power we are actually going to use. 1800 3600RPM?

[slingingsmoke]

If you need more power, trade up to a Powerstroke or a D-Max. That should take care of all your problems (except for the new monthly payment :D )

[goneboatin]

If you need more power, trade up to a Powerstroke or a D-Max. That should take care of all your problems (except for the new monthly payment :D )
I had a D-Max ordered for my truck, but I got frustrated trying to back the boat into my storage spot, (I had to jack knife it in). I called to see if I could still make changes and that I wanted the Quadrasteer. Can't get the D-Max and Q-steer together, so I went with the Q-steer. Love the turing radius and maneuverability, but needs more power.

[BowTie Rick]

Nice gain across the powerband, peak HP is noted. Best of all, its CARB legal, the AFE is not. K&N for the 8.1L (http://www.kandn.com/dynocharts/57-3030.jpg) Stay away from the AFE ProGuard 7, it is not 100% cleanable and it will eventually clog up and collapse. No way in hell is 60 HP possible from bolt-ons.

[don johnson]

I talked to Lyndon at Wester's Garage about some changes to my computer tune and he told me he has a remote location in So Cal. He gave me the number and I called them up. The guy told me of a muffler called an Aero Turbine muffler combined with an AFE intake netted 60 rear wheel horsepower on an 8.1! That's right 60 hp. I find that hard to believe.
I checked out Aero-Turbine on their website and it shows a jet engine looking muffler that claims to reduce backpressure. In fact, it says it works like an expansion chamber creating a vacuum. It all sounds good, but isn't too little backpressure bad for low end? The sound clips sound kind of flatulant.
I was wondering if anyone on the boards has any experience with this muffler.
Aero Turbine (http://www.aero-turbine.com)
I went thru the whole 8.1L bolt on deal 4 months ago and chassis dyno tested each mod. Below were my findings;
Test- 2005 Suburban 4 x 4 8.1L
Stock= 262 HP and 386 ft lbs torque at the rear tires
Added Gibson Shorty headers and cat back= 14 HP and 27 Ft lbs of torque increase
Added Volant Cold Air Induction= 6 HP and 9 ft lbs torque increase
Added Westers tuned computer= 56 HP and 63 ft lbs of torque increase
In total picked up 76 HP and 99 Ft Lbs which maxed at 338 HP and 485 Ft lbs at the rear tires. Chassis dyno was done at Superior.
The Westers tune was by far the biggest add on. Lyndon Westers custom programmed my computer in 4 days and the tune was set up to compliment the headers and cold air. A huge plus of the Westers is the reprogramming reduces the torque management and removes the speed limiter.
The Westers tune was a huge improvement. The car passes with ease without downshifting now and is simply a lot more fun to drive. It drives like an 496 CI motor should now!
For the hell of it I also dyno'ed an Hypertech handheld reprogrammer to compare a handheld/ flash reprogrammer to the Westers custom tune and can tell you that the Hypertech sucks by comparison! The Hypertech did pick up 17 HP and 24 ft lbs of torque. However, not even close to the Westers... Both tunes were set to run on 91 octane.
After 4 months of driving I am averaging almost 2 MPG improvement with these mod's.
Hope this helps!

[slingingsmoke]

Stay away from the AFE ProGuard 7, it is not 100% cleanable and it will eventually clog up and collapse..
:rolleyes: I suppose K&N gave you this info....WHATEVER
Believe me, The only filter you want to use, and that will filter as good as stock is the AFE PG-7 intake. K&N style filters only use 4 layers of cotton (if you hold it up to the light you can see through it) AFE uses minimum 5 and max of 7 (PG-7) layers of gauze. It is the ONLY filter proven to stop as much dirt as a stock filter.
THERE IS NO FILTER THAT WILL FILTER BETTER THAN OEM! The closest thing you can get is the PG-7
If you want proof, I can E-mail you pics of guy's Turbos whose vanes have been damaged due to too much dirt and caca passing through their K&N filter.
....next....Oh yeah Rick, Where do you work??? :hammer2: :shift:
JON
P.S. I Love the Avatar :)

[Norseman]

I talked to Lyndon at Wester's Garage about some changes to my computer tune and he told me he has a remote location in So Cal. He gave me the number and I called them up. The guy told me of a muffler called an Aero Turbine muffler combined with an AFE intake netted 60 rear wheel horsepower on an 8.1! That's right 60 hp. I find that hard to believe.
I checked out Aero-Turbine on their website and it shows a jet engine looking muffler that claims to reduce backpressure. In fact, it says it works like an expansion chamber creating a vacuum. It all sounds good, but isn't too little backpressure bad for low end? The sound clips sound kind of flatulant.
I was wondering if anyone on the boards has any experience with this muffler.
Aero Turbine (http://www.aero-turbine.com)
I find the claim of 60 RW HP a little extreme. Maybe they were running 3/4 throttle in the before the muffler change dyno run..... :jawdrop:

[goneboatin]

If the expansion chamber effect draws exhaust gasses in to reduce backpressure, isn't too little backpressure on a stock gas engine bad? Is this a little like a supercharger trying to suck the exhaust out faster? Kind of like sticking a vacuum up your butt to chug that beer faster?
:idea:

[BowTie Rick]

Wrong. The stock Donaldson filter for the Ford 6.0L holds 1000 grams of dirt before it needs replacing. The AFE 7 layer holds a whopping 200 grams before it clogs. Stopping dirt is only 1 part of the equation and yes, K&N is as good as OE. All K&Ns meet 3 criteria, filter as good or better as stock, hold as much or more dirt than stock, and flow as good or better than stock. That seeing through the filter is a 1970's Fram line against cotton. We do not make a 4 layer for any diesel app, they are 6 layer all cotton, no synthetics. The AFe is 5 cotton, 2 synthetic (which does nothing but cause clogging and uncleanable problems). Here is an image of the K&N media under a microscope. The "holes" you speak of are full of fibers that when treated with oil are very translucent. You can only see 3 layers deep in the image so that theory is out the door.
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/164Microscopic4.jpg
Anyone that damaged a turbo did it by something other than dirt passing through the media, simply not possible. I tell you what, if you want to see our lab and test facility and watch an AFE, True FLow, Green ,etc. flounder in testing, give me a call and I'll arrange it. We also have independent testing to back it up from a VERY reputable test facility. 20 million filters and 35 years of experience speaks volume. A disgruntled employee that starts his own company based on a 500 mile lifespan filter designed for NASCAR use does not say much. BTW, our test facility cost $1.5 million and was bulit by Southwest Research Institute. Look them up if you have a chance.
:rolleyes: I suppose K&N gave you this info....WHATEVER
Believe me, The only filter you want to use, and that will filter as good as stock is the AFE PG-7 intake. K&N style filters only use 4 layers of cotton (if you hold it up to the light you can see through it) AFE uses minimum 5 and max of 7 (PG-7) layers of gauze. It is the ONLY filter proven to stop as much dirt as a stock filter.
THERE IS NO FILTER THAT WILL FILTER BETTER THAN OEM! The closest thing you can get is the PG-7
If you want proof, I can E-mail you pics of guy's Turbos whose vanes have been damaged due to too much dirt and caca passing through their K&N filter.
....next....Oh yeah Rick, Where do you work??? :hammer2: :shift:
JON
P.S. I Love the Avatar :)

[slingingsmoke]

HIGH FLOW AIR INTAKE SYSTEMS
WHO IS THE BEST & WHY!
We received many letters asking which high flow air intake system to use. We decided to test a number of manufacturers’ systems to determine which system was superior. We tested each system and found systems manufactured by AFE (Advanced Flow Engineering) were the best by far.
Diesel engines use seven times more air than gasoline engines of equivalent size so clean cool air is a must for extended engine life, better fuel economy and additional power. A higher flow of intake air coupled with a high flow exhaust system allows for more power, a better fuel economy, extended engine life and reduced exhaust temperatures. On the other hand ingested dirt through the air intake system becomes Silicon in the engine oil, which is a harsh cutting agent and can damage your engine quickly.
We tested three very popular systems. I will not mention the names of the other systems as a courtesy but I will explain what problems we found with them. We evaluated the systems by a number of criteria, filtration protection, flow, and design, easy of installation and cost. Almost in the beginning of the tests we realized in most instances a new intake system was necessary to achieve our goals. We needed a kit that used mostly outside air and not hot engine compartment air. We decided to use systems designed to use mostly outside air.
Two manufacturers claimed their systems delivered cleaner air at a higher flow but this was far from the truth. We did not believe any of the manufacturers’ claims and tested each system by operating the vehicle 3,000 miles and performing an engine oil analysis to determine Silicon levels in the engine oil. The vehicle we used has an engine oil analysis performed at every oil change so we had a Silicon number of three (3) to base our tests on.
The first manufacturer’s system was fairly easy to install but we had problems with the oil used to coat the filter also coated the Mass Air Flow Sensor causing a service engine lamp to come on. I called the manufacturer but they had no explanation as to why this should happen but they had this complaint before. Through the three thousand mile test I had to clean the sensor three times to stop the service engine lamp from coming on. When the oil analysis results came back, it was discouraging with Silicon levels at eleven (11). I almost could not believe the result so we changed the oil and filter and repeated the test. The results were almost the same eliminating this manufacturer quickly. I contacted the manufacturer to discuss the results and they were not helpful and basically said, “what you see is what you get”!
We installed the second manufacturer’s system again changing the engine oil and operating the vehicle for three thousand miles. The first problem we encountered was the service engine lamp coming on and I thought the oil they used was coating the sensor again. I removed the sensor and found some oil on it which I cleaned off and reinstalled the sensor. Within ten miles the lamp was on again. I removed the sensor but there was no coating of oil on it. I then placed our scan tool on the engine and quickly discovered the airflow rate was too high for the sensor. I then realized the manufacturer had moved the position of the sensor into a higher airflow and velocity position trying to squeak a little more power from their system. I continued the test having to deal with the service engine lamp throughout the test period. The engine oil analysis gave a Silicon reading of eight (8 and along with the engine lamp problem did not give the manufacturer high mark but I felt if I discussed the problems with them maybe we could overcome them. I placed four calls to the manufacturer and I am still waiting for a call back! This surely eliminated this manufacturer.
The third manufacturer we tested was AFE (Advanced Flow Engineering). We used their Magnum Force air intake system. We operated the vehicle for 3000 miles and when the oil analysis came back it was promising with a Silicon reading of five (5). While five was the best Silicon result we had, it was not good enough. I called AFE and was pleasantly surprised when I discovered they were truly concerned. I spoke with a Mr. Paul Hardley who suggested I try their Pro-Guard 7 media they were about to release. He explained the new Pro-Guard 7 media was five layers of progressively finer mesh medical grade cotton gauze with micro fibers that attract smaller and smaller particles as air passes through. Combined with the five layers of medical [gauze] media, there are two layers of non-woven synthetic polyester fabric with random porosity. The filter media is sandwiched between two layers of aluminum wire mesh. He agreed to send two Pro-Guard 7 filters for a new test. I installed the Pro-Guard 7 filter, changed the engine oil and operated the vehicle for three thousand miles. The engine oil analysis was excellent with a Silicon reading of below three (3). Finally we found an air intake system that gave us a higher flow rate and better filtration. The AFE Magnum Force air intake system is a well designed system, easily installed and uses about 90% outside air. The filter is cleanable and the oil used to coat the filter is patented because it is formulated not to affect the airflow sensor.
Another positive factor of the high flow system was the fuel economy increased about ½ MPG in mixed driving and 1 MPG during highway tests. The filter media used by AFE will not collapse if it gets wet or subject to high boost pressures. They also offer pre-filters for most of their applications for very dusty or dirty operating conditions. We carry a full line of AFE products with Pro-GUARD 7 media. If you order an AFE system from another source, make sure it has a Pro-GUARD 7 media.
A very important factor in this test was the manufacturer was willing to discuss problems with their products and help to overcome them. My hat is off to Paul Hardley and all the people at AFE!
Dan Montegari
President
Precision Diesel Services
SPICER Posted: 16 July 2004 at 3:47pm | IP Logged | Report Post
Diesel Addict
Group: Diesel Addict
Joined: 04 December 2003
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 302 The following is the complete test results. In order of rank from BEST performance to WORST in the categories of FILTERING EFFICIENCY, FLOW RESTRICTION, DIRT HOLDING CAPACITY and TOTAL DIRT PASSING THE FILTER DURING TEST.
SPICER wrote:
In the order of filtering efficiency the results are:
FILTER % Efficiency
AC Delco OE 99.93%
Baldwin 99.72%
No name filter (made for gas engine, 1/3 less pleats) 99.32%
AFE ProGuard 7 (73-10062), panel filter 99.23%
WIX/Napa 99.03%
Purolator 98.73%
Amsoil, new style 98.63%
UNI 97.93%
K&N 96.80%
Additionally, these 2 were tested using FINE test dust. The K&N was cleaned and retested, the AFE was the conical version:
K&N 89.85%
AFE Conical 92.33%
FLOW RESTRICTION FROM BEST TO WORST:
FILTER RESTRICTION in Inches H2O
K&N 4.54
Mystery bargain filter 4.78
AFE Pro Guard 7 Panel 4.99
Purolator 5.05
WIX/Napa 5.06
UNI 5.40
Baldwin 5.71
Amsoil 5.88
AC Delco 6.23
DIRT HOLDING CAPACITY From best to worst. This is the AMOUNT OF DIRT it took to create an ADDITIONAL 10 inches of water restriction. At that point the test is terminated.This indicates HOW LONG a filter is good before it must be cleaned or replaced.
AC Delco 573.898 grams
WIX/Napa 447.366
Purolator 388.659
Baldwin 388.154
UNI 374.638
Mystery bargain 350.402
AFE Pro Guard 7 232.516
K&N 211.58
Amsoil 196.323
TOTAL DIRT PASSING THE FILTER DURING THE TEST. This is how much dirt your engine will take in if you use the filter for the duration that would cause the filter to become "dirty" enough to need replacement or cleaning. The "Dirt Passing The Filter" is the dirt collected by the "Post Filter" during the test.
FILTER DIRT IN GRAMS PASSED
AC Delco 0.4 g
Baldwin 1.1g
AFE Pro Guard 7 1.8g
Mystery Bargain 2.4g
Amsoil 2.7g
WIX/Napa 4.4g
Purolator 5.0g
K&N 6.0g
UNI 7.9g
Note: The Purolator was reported to have a seal malfunction during the test and passed more dirt than it would have with a good seal.
Interesting. SPICER
***I did not know that the new K&N's were 6 layer. Thank you for correcting me. I know AirRaid is a 5 Layer and does pretty well. However based on past experiences of mine and those I know, Specifically for the 6.0 PSD Diesel, there is no better aftermarket filter than AFE's PG-7 Stage II. It is easily serviceable, uses oil that won't mess with your mass air flow sensor, and filters almost as good as OEM.***
Regards,
JON

[goneboatin]

HIGH FLOW AIR INTAKE SYSTEMS
We needed a kit that used mostly outside air and not hot engine compartment air. We decided to use systems designed to use mostly outside air.
What intake manufacturers make a system that pulls mostly outside air other than the Volant closed box system with the SS cold air tube. The K&N FIPK system is an open element as well as CGS, AirRaid and a few others. I know there are systems that involve using a cold air induction hood. But I want something that bolts right in and doesn't need any body modifications.

[BowTie Rick]

The "letter of endoresement" is an advertisement made to look like an official statement. Trickery by the people at AFE. Yet another reason not to trust them or give them your business. It ran in a magazine that AFE is the primary sponsor of.
The test data is flawed. First, all that is shown are results. I got to see the methodology/procedures, etc. They did not hold humidity constant!!! That is a huge mistake and violates ISO 5011 test procedures. A 10% humidy change will add SIGNIFICANT weight to the absolute filter making the test filter look better or worse than it actually is and skewing results. Furthermore, they do not account for all dirt sent at the filter nor do they mention removing all humidity from the absolute filter after the test is completed. Our legal team is involved with both those particular statements and you can bet there will be some serious eating of crow in the near future regarding them.

[BowTie Rick]

What intake manufacturers make a system that pulls mostly outside air other than the Volant closed box system with the SS cold air tube. The K&N FIPK system is an open element as well as CGS, AirRaid and a few others. I know there are systems that involve using a cold air induction hood. But I want something that bolts right in and doesn't need any body modifications.
We, and most others, place the filter right where the air box was. It can then get outside air from the ducting that fed the air box as well as from behind the headlight and all the open area below it. Don't go with closed, too close to stock with a drop-in filter. "Cold air" like a ricer kit hangs too low to the ground and that is not practicle at all on truck: water, excessive dust, etc.

[slingingsmoke]

goneboatin-AFE's intake uses a large snout just like our stock airboxes. It seals the filter from the engine compartment and sucks through a hole in the grille. If you ever get a chance you can take out the stock element and see that the snout goes through a hole, you can even get a holesaw and drill two 2" holes in the plastic liner of the grille allowing more outside air to the filter. I use this mod with my stock airbox.
I think that myself and BowTie Rick have good points. He has a wealth of knowledge that I have already learned from. I have experience with diesels both 6.0's and 7.3's. No one I know will run anything buy AFE. Whether AFE's owner is a K&N reject or not, It is the best intake kit for OUR motors.

[468 Ultra]

And no they are not pissed off employees. They just saw a need for a better product. Its all competition man. Its not engineered if you have to supply gaskets or grease to make a drop in flat panel seal to an airbox. How hard is it to take an extra step and measure the box correctly the first time? Its not really cool to go out and slander another company just because they are succesful. You are probably some lazy fat bastard that sits behind his computer . I dont know what you are talking about because I know people at K&N and they dont let people into there R&D area anyways. So how are you going to show them around? Was that the part of the building that caught on fire?

[Jordy]

You are probably some lazy fat bastard that sits behind his computer.
That's a hell of a first post... how to make friends and influence people. Welcome to the boards. :rolleyes: :D

[Cole Trickle]

And no they are not pissed off employees. They just saw a need for a better product. Its all competition man. Its not engineered if you have to supply gaskets or grease to make a drop in flat panel seal to an airbox. How hard is it to take an extra step and measure the box correctly the first time? Its not really cool to go out and slander another company just because they are succesful. You are probably some lazy fat bastard that sits behind his computer . I dont know what you are talking about because I know people at K&N and they dont let people into there R&D area anyways. So how are you going to show them around? Was that the part of the building that caught on fire?
I have been on a tour at K&N.
The facility and it's employees are nothing short of first class.
There products are proven and the company has been and will be around for along time.(There is something to be said for a company that makes it in the aftermarket industry)
Brandin

[djunkie]

Slingingsmoke how good is the Volant intake and filter setup? Looks like a nice setup but is the filter any good?

[djunkie]

Slingingsmoke how good is the Volant intake and filter setup? Looks like a nice setup but is the filter any good?
Sorry forgot to add this is for the duramax.

[BowTie Rick]

And no they are not pissed off employees. They just saw a need for a better product. Its all competition man. Its not engineered if you have to supply gaskets or grease to make a drop in flat panel seal to an airbox. How hard is it to take an extra step and measure the box correctly the first time? Its not really cool to go out and slander another company just because they are succesful. You are probably some lazy fat bastard that sits behind his computer . I dont know what you are talking about because I know people at K&N and they dont let people into there R&D area anyways. So how are you going to show them around? Was that the part of the building that caught on fire?
I am all for competition, it makes you strive to be better. The problem is the mis-information portrayed by others including some of the things you just posted. The Particulator that removes crap from the ovens exhaust before going into the air caught fire. No big, its outside the building and was fixed in 2 days. As far as slander, no way. Who is running around posting an inaccurate test with fundimental flaws in how it was conducted? Gaskets, be real. The only filters that have gaskets are those that fit air boxes that come from the factory with warping greater than what a urethane lip seal can compensate for. We are talking about maybe 4 filters out of 800. Sounds like someone did measure and to steps to prevent leakage not someone who took shortcuts and made an inferior product. As far as R&D tours, all the time, any time. Come see the test lab and how to do it correctly, no problem. Lastly, they did not see a need for a better product. The guy quit because he did not play well with others. Fat lazy bastard, huh? My father was the president of SEMA for 27 years. I ride dirt bikes and go to the river every weekend I can. I also have a home based business and 2 kids. I lift weights everyday and do some light jogging too. I never even turn on the computer at home. Jordy nailed it, Nice first post.

[BowTie Rick]

Slingingsmoke and I seem to get along just fine even though he prefers the "other brand". :wink: I hope we can too. I also own an Ultra and would like to think if we ever met, we could have a beer together and not let insults over what kind of filter we prefer get in the way. Life is a bit more meaningful than air filters to me. I view it as Ford vs. Chevy, truck vs. ricer, etc. To each, their own. Can I get a group hug? LOL

[spectras only]

I have a K & N in my 96 mustang for 7 yrs now. I've over oiled it couple of times [ checked it after a few miles and found some residue on the mass sensor] but the engine light never came on ,or causing any problems. Didn't notice any performance gains ,but happy with the fact that I don't have to buy another filter anytime soon :wink: .

[XtrmWakeborder]

Great posts guys, i like it when i can actually get good info from people who know what they are talking about.

[Rexone]

Hmmm could a sworn I saw the K&N R&D and test facility. Perhaps it was just a dream while I was eating donuts sitting at my computer. :smile:

[ADDICTED]

I have always used K&N air filters on everything I own. Nowadays I only use the stock replacement but Have never had any problems.
Like Cole trickle said.
"There products are proven and the company has been and will be around for along time.(There is something to be said for a company that makes it in the aftermarket industry)"
I could not have said it better.

[slingingsmoke]

Slingingsmoke how good is the Volant intake and filter setup? Looks like a nice setup but is the filter any good?
Volant makes quality air boxes, but I dont know much about their filters. Not many Diesel Junkies use em. So I dont get much feedback. I'd still go with AFE's Stage II intake with the PG-7 filter for your D-Max.
JON.

[slingingsmoke]

Slingingsmoke and I seem to get along just fine even though he prefers the "other brand". :wink: I hope we can too. I also own an Ultra and would like to think if we ever met, we could have a beer together
I'd Love to.... Memorial Day Perhaps....
JON