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Mandelon
04-27-2005, 12:26 PM
Do they really work as well as advertised? Any body have one? Does it lower your bill? Give endless hot water?

BAH468
04-27-2005, 12:35 PM
They work great. I have a Bosch and a Tagaki. Well worth the money and a two day long shower if you want.

OGShocker
04-27-2005, 12:39 PM
We are looking into them. I hear GREAT things about the Tagaki.

ROZ
04-27-2005, 12:40 PM
Do they really work as well as advertised? Any body have one? Does it lower your bill? Give endless hot water?
Don't have one but want one. They work ad advertised. My sister had on installed in her house and noticed a SIGNIFICANT decrease in her gas bill...

BarryMac
04-27-2005, 12:43 PM
I am of the understanding that you need a larger diameter gas line to run the unit, I believe that the standard is 1/2" and it needs to be increased to at least 3/4"???

Mrs. Bordsmnj
04-27-2005, 12:47 PM
This is totally irrelevant but when I was in Costa Rica they had what they referred to as "suicide showers". There were no water heaters so they had these little things that plugged into an electrical outlet and was attached to the shower head to heat the water right before it came out. If you touched the shower head during your shower, you would get zapped. :2purples: Luckily, cold showers felt really good.
Is that what you are looking for Mandelon?? :wink:

LHC30Victory
04-27-2005, 01:04 PM
what do they cost? can you install them yourself or are they an "installer only" item?????
I thought they were about 2K for a good home unit. Any hookups in the 909?

HCS
04-27-2005, 01:09 PM
Don't have one but want one. They work ad advertised. My sister had on installed in her house and noticed a SIGNIFICANT decrease in her gas bill...
If I didn't have a tank that's fairly new I'd be shopping for one. The only thing that's gas in my house is the water heater and heating unit. 75% of my gas bill is the water heater. Heck if I got rid of that my gas bill would be zero in the summer.

KACHINA KEN
04-27-2005, 01:18 PM
Yeah, all the hotels in South America and Europe use them, It was nice n hot, I just thought it was alittle prehistoric. The Toilets in Holland are funny too. They are medical design units, the poo winds up on a shelf I guess so you can inspect it or take a sample, then you flush and it goes to Mr Henke land.

TheLurker
04-27-2005, 01:57 PM
I have only heard good things about them.
I plan on getting one for the river house as soon as the water heater I have takes a dump. It will probably be soon since I took the anode out to get rid of the sulfur smell.
Believe it or not they even have electric on demand hot water heaters. I don’t understand how they heat the water up that fast though.

canuck1
04-27-2005, 02:15 PM
Both work well gas or electric. Gas will give you more flow at higher temps. They can be used for radiant heating as well

NashvilleBound
04-27-2005, 02:30 PM
I just ordered a Takagi T-M1 Mobius for one of our homes. By far the best on the market. This will easily run a 4100 sf home. The best deals are at Ira Wood & Sons. $1449....$1501.14 delivered. http://store.yahoo.com/irawoodinc/tatmogastawa.html Check it out. Natural gas is the best way to go!

It's all Good
04-27-2005, 02:33 PM
Rinnai is what we have been using in projects.

Sportin' Wood
04-27-2005, 02:51 PM
Rinaii or Noritz,They are both good. I have had less then great results from the older bosch and takagi units, they might be better now.
I have installed tons of them in everything from dingbats to 12,000 sq.ft. mansions. They kick ass. Give me a call I Pmed you my cell. I have been putting in the two brands for 5 years and have had one call back so far. It was not the heater. I like the Noritz better because Rinaii requires you to use there Bvent. If I was mounting it outside I would use rinaii.
Yes you need to look at the gas sizing. The noritz requires around 180 cfh. compared to 45cfh for a typical tanked waterheater. You can also adjust the temp on a control panal with some models. Only draw back is that some can't be sold unless you are a factory trained rep.
Sorry guys I don't do retrofits but will be hapy to answer your questions.
Jeff

BAH468
04-27-2005, 03:00 PM
I installed both of mine without problems. The Tagaki was the better of the two units. It is also big enough that someone can take a shower the same time the washing machine is going. You do need a bigger gas line and a larger vent pipe then a standard tanked water heater. Also need a fair amount of available air for the unit so if it is going in a small utility room you may need more venting into the room.

Hustler
04-27-2005, 03:22 PM
I have heard nothing but good things about them and really want one but I dont really understand how you save on your gas bill if they require twice as much gas :confused: How does that work?

mike37
04-27-2005, 03:32 PM
Rinaii or Noritz,They are both good. I have had less then great results from the older bosch and takagi units, they might be better now.
I have installed tons of them in everything from dingbats to 12,000 sq.ft. mansions. They kick ass. Give me a call I Pmed you my cell. I have been putting in the two brands for 5 years and have had one call back so far. It was not the heater. I like the Noritz better because Rinaii requires you to use there Bvent. If I was mounting it outside I would use rinaii.
Yes you need to look at the gas sizing. The noritz requires around 180 cfh. compared to 45cfh for a typical tanked waterheater. You can also adjust the temp on a control panal with some models. Only draw back is that some can't be sold unless you are a factory trained rep.
Sorry guys I don't do retrofits but will be hapy to answer your questions.
Jeff
I need info on electric tank-less any info on them

al cole'holic
04-27-2005, 03:58 PM
I have a line on Takagi T-K2 models for well under a grand if anyone is interested :D

Ultrafied
04-27-2005, 04:27 PM
They have been used throughout Europe for years. Dependable and nice, but basically both (gas and electric) consume more energy (same concept as the instant hot water in your kitchen sink). This can be offset though because there is not a constant amount of water being maintained. :yuk:

RitcheyRch
04-27-2005, 05:56 PM
Have heard good things about them. My friend is installing one in his house. He said the vent that goes through the roof of the house needs to be larger as well as the gas line going to it.

MRS FLYIN VEE
04-27-2005, 06:08 PM
depending on how many fixtures you have in the house that it will be a good unit. if you do not have restrictors in the faucets or bath tubs it can be a problem unless you buy one of the biggest units. I also recommend a recirculating line. :)

MagicMtnDan
04-27-2005, 06:31 PM
Tankless water heaters are a great idea and they certainly sound like the best way to go. Like everything else there are two sides to a story and there are some issues to consider before jumping into the expense.
Of course you'll want to calculate your ROI (how long it will take to pay for itself). Keep in mind (the obvious): If you spend more money for some fixture or thing that says it will save you money, you do not begin to save money until such time as you get back the extra money you spent for the more expensive item as well as any interest you might have made while that money sat in a bank account.
Some links worth checking out:
http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/infwaterheater/inftankless.shtm
(see the links on the left on this page)
http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/infwaterheater/inftankless2.shtm
http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/homeandwork/homes/inside/appliances/waterheaters.html (scroll down to the bottom of this page)
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/2/25/22448/3372 (this is a forum discussing them)

Hustler
04-27-2005, 08:41 PM
Unlike conventional water heater that heat water continuously throughout the life of the heater, a tankless hot water heater only heats water while you're using it. On demand versus heating/cooling/heating cycle.
Thats what I kinda figured but will it accually use less in the long run?

MRS FLYIN VEE
04-27-2005, 08:51 PM
Thats what I kinda figured but will it accually use less in the long run?
it all depends on you actually. the water is continuously hot so you may take a longer shower. :D
the heaters do require gas and electrical .or I should say most if not all. they are worth it as long as you get the right one. we had one but it was too small for our bathtub. so look into the one you want and make sure they give you the right size for the amount of fixtures you have in the house. and also keep in consideration the flow of certain tub valves and shower heads you have. without a restrictor you have more flow so it may not heat the water fast enough to fill say a jacuzzi tub with a huge spout. :cool:

HammerDown
04-28-2005, 04:32 AM
They are medical design units, the poo winds up on a shelf I guess so you can inspect it or take a sample, then you flush and it goes to Mr Henke land.
Something tells me Tom Brown has this style. :D

boxscore
04-28-2005, 05:21 AM
depending on how many fixtures you have in the house that it will be a good unit. if you do not have restrictors in the faucets or bath tubs it can be a problem unless you buy one of the biggest units. I also recommend a recirculating line. :)
We're lookin to install a couple in a new home we're building. But a drawback is that you cannot have a recirculating system as well. Remember ... it's tankless so there's no supply of hot water to recirculate.

jayd_jr
04-28-2005, 06:13 AM
We're lookin to install a couple in a new home we're building. But a drawback is that you cannot have a recirculating system as well. Remember ... it's tankless so there's no supply of hot water to recirculate.
Yes there is a way to put a recirculating line..... Its in the instructions....

boxscore
04-28-2005, 06:36 AM
Yes there is a way to put a recirculating line..... Its in the instructions....
So there's a way to have hot water ready at the tap waiting?

jayd_jr
04-28-2005, 06:42 AM
So there's a way to have hot water ready at the tap waiting?
You can never have it at the tap waiting.... A circulating system just goes to the farthest fixture in the system. ANd the branch lines still have to draw off the main and circ line. I cant rmember how I did it let me do some research. I did all the plumbing for the Takagi dist. center here in Irvine.....

boxscore
04-28-2005, 06:48 AM
I'd be interested in what you find out. What's also cool about 'em is they take up so little space compared to a conventional 50 or 75 gal h2o heater.

jayd_jr
04-28-2005, 06:52 AM
I'd be interested in what you find out. What's also cool about 'em is they take up so little space compared to a conventional 50 or 75 gal h2o heater.
It was like 3 years ago when I put it in. Got the unit for free and they told me how to do the circ line. I will make a call and let you know. They are very small and can be put practically anywhere.
Jay

UltraLucky
04-28-2005, 07:20 AM
It is important to get the correct size according to your needs like others have said. We had ours installed last month and we are very happy with the results. No more running out of hot water when every one in the house is getting ready @ the same time. We went with a Takagi unit with a remote Temp. controler, ran 3/4" gas line and 4" stainless vent. we were able to free up enough space from removing the old water heater to add a shower stall in place of the old heater. Location is critical as they generate a-lot of heat.

MRS FLYIN VEE
04-28-2005, 07:24 AM
We're lookin to install a couple in a new home we're building. But a drawback is that you cannot have a recirculating system as well. Remember ... it's tankless so there's no supply of hot water to recirculate.
I don't know. I'm just a plumber, :wink: :wink: :D :D

jayd_jr
04-28-2005, 07:54 AM
I don't know. I'm just a plumber, :wink: :wink: :D :D
Funny thing I am to..... :D
Here is how you hook up a recirc pump to a tankless heater. I am going to tell you where to put the pump and how.
The tankless heater works on flow(demand) so if there is no water flowing through the heater it will not heat. Place the pump near the heater which is typical installation. You have to pipe the outlet side of the pump to the cold inlet of the tank. At that point you have to place a check valve on the cold water feed down stream of the tee( not to allow water to back feed the cold). This will allow the pump to make the heater think there is flow.
There are two ways of regulating the pump a thermostat or a timer. Place the thermostat near the tee at the cold water inlet. As the thermostat tells the pump the water is not hot enough its turns on. Water flows through the heater inturn heating it. When the hot water reaches the thermostat it shuts off the pump and the water in the circ line and main stay hot( storage tank, you can insulate to help hold the heat) Then when and if the water cools the pump will turn on agiain.
You can do the same with a timer and set it for when the most use would take place.
This is a quick description of what you can do. I got this info from the Takagi rep......... He says this is the typical insatll. If you have any questions PM me......
Jay

Indiansprings
04-28-2005, 08:08 AM
I am building a home down in Estrella, will be elect. only. I have been really looking at the SETS 220 Tankless. Any experiance with these?

MRS FLYIN VEE
04-28-2005, 08:25 AM
I am building a home down in Estrella, will be elect. only. I have been really looking at the SETS 220 Tankless. Any experiance with these?
I have not installed one of those. But why are you only going with elec. :) do you not have gas or propane. I am just currious since I have no experience with those heaters. :)

Mandelon
04-28-2005, 08:25 AM
Thanks for the replies on this. It's quite an education. Looks like a good way to go. How long do they last?
I would be going with a gas unit. Do the burners wear out? I read the instructions in one that said to grease some valve every 2 or 3 yeears....??

MRS FLYIN VEE
04-28-2005, 08:32 AM
Thanks for the replies on this. It's quite an education. Looks like a good way to go. How long do they last?
I would be going with a gas unit. Do the burners wear out? I read the instructions in one that said to grease some valve every 2 or 3 yeears....??
what unit are you going with. the heater will last along time as long as you have it maintained by a tech. once a year to clean the heat exchanger and service the unit. ;)

jayd_jr
04-28-2005, 08:33 AM
Thanks for the replies on this. It's quite an education. Looks like a good way to go. How long do they last?
I would be going with a gas unit. Do the burners wear out? I read the instructions in one that said to grease some valve every 2 or 3 yeears....??
Dont know how long it would last... Only what the manufacturer says. The burners are stainless and should last as long as your house.....Just PM me if you want to talk....i can give you my number. :D

MagicMtnDan
04-28-2005, 08:34 AM
I have read about corrosion of the unit - something about minerals, etc. That seems to be the biggest concern besides the initial cost to buy and install.
I was told by a plumber that you can put the unit outside the house and run the line inside where it connects up with your hot water line (where the water heater tank is/was). That way the venting issue is less of a concern.

MRS FLYIN VEE
04-28-2005, 08:39 AM
I have read about corrosion of the unit - something about minerals, etc. That seems to be the biggest concern besides the initial cost to buy and install.
I was told by a plumber that you can put the unit outside the house and run the line inside where it connects up with your hot water line (where the water heater tank is/was). That way the venting issue is less of a concern.
true. the venting is very important. if it is outside it needs to be away from windows and doors if just a cap is put on it. or vent it to the roof is best.

Sportin' Wood
04-28-2005, 08:50 AM
I have no experience with recircs on takagi's or bosch. I can tell you that I had a problem with recircs on Noritz and ranaii. You can run a recirc but IMO you need a storage tank and that defeats the purpose of the tankless.
The question of how does this save money can be answered like this.
Both noritz and ranaii heat only the amount of water demanded of the system. Meaning if you run a lav at .05 gpm it will only heat .05 gpm
The unit will only burn the heating element to the required temp.
I use 6.9 and 6.3 noritz on 4 and 5 bath homes with no trouble on a single system. the 6.9 is the upgrade and comes with the controler that allows you to adjust the temp of the heater. this is a nice feature, if you know you like your bath water at 102. set the controller to 102, turn on the hot side only and your bath will be 102 +_ .05. I have had no trouble with this system in large tubs, in fact it works better the a tanked heater on large tubs and mutihead showers, as GPM can add up fast when you have 6 heads with the flow controls pulled out.
If you need more you can move up to a bigger noritz unit but if you have a big house I suggest muti systems. The units can also be linked together and run in syquence up to 5 units on one controller. This would make it a good alternitive to a boiler unit.
the greatest thing about tankless is ROI. The unit is easily repaired rather then thrown away. the controller can tell a tech what is wrong and a new part installed rather then throw away the whole tank type heater when the tank rots out. there is no tank to rot with this unit.
I am on propane and will be installing the units in my house when I remodel. My business partner promptly ripped out the brand new 75 gal heater in his new home and installed the noritz. He had a Ranaii in his last home and said he will never have a tanked heater again. He went with Noritz because we get a deal on them, Ranaii is just as good.
For more info search Noritz on the web. Sorry I don't sell retail, or do retrofits.
I have no experience with electric units outsie point of use heaters that only provide hot water to Comm. lav's.
I would like to add that I push tankless in the homes we do plumbing on because I have less call backs on them. In one year about 60% of my call backs where on AO smith water heaters due to manufactures defects. I hate AO smith. With new rules regulating waterheaters I see a lot of call backs such as cleaning the filter on some new models. I like tankless alot better. I predict that in 10 years tanked water heaters will be a thing of the past. We are far behind the rest of the world when it comes to how we waste energy on tanked heaters.

Indiansprings
04-28-2005, 08:50 AM
My new home will be Elect. only. No gas. It is in the foothills. Everything I have read on them is good. It requires 100 amp circuit. The house will have 400 amp service. Do a google search on SETS tankless water heaters

Sportin' Wood
04-28-2005, 08:55 AM
I have read about corrosion of the unit - something about minerals, etc. That seems to be the biggest concern besides the initial cost to buy and install.
I was told by a plumber that you can put the unit outside the house and run the line inside where it connects up with your hot water line (where the water heater tank is/was). That way the venting issue is less of a concern.
lime is the trouble.. The controller will tell you when it needs to be cleaned. The tech (or you) just flushes the unit. If you plumb it with valves for flushing it is real easy. In the last 5 years I have yet to get a call about flushing one of our units.

MRS FLYIN VEE
04-28-2005, 08:57 AM
My new home will be Elect. only. No gas. It is in the foothills. Everything I have read on them is good. It requires 100 amp circuit. The house will have 400 amp service. Do a google search on SETS tankless water heaters
cool. I will search it out.
I was just asking because I know they can run on propane. I was currious why it was only elec. :)

mike37
04-28-2005, 01:18 PM
iv got a link to the sets sight
link to SETS tankles (http://www.sets-systems.com/) cool. I will search it out.
I was just asking because I know they can run on propane. I was currious why it was only elec. :)

MRS FLYIN VEE
04-28-2005, 01:22 PM
iv got a link to the sets sight
link to SETS tankles (http://www.sets-systems.com/)
thank you sweetie. :wink:

Mandelon
04-28-2005, 01:25 PM
thank you sweetie. :wink:
Mrs Vee, I'd like to heat up your tanks. :D

MRS FLYIN VEE
04-28-2005, 01:25 PM
Mrs Vee, I'd like to heat up your tanks. :D
how can you heat mine when you are in the market for one. LOL!! :D

Mandelon
04-28-2005, 01:28 PM
My pipes may be old, but they still work.

MRS FLYIN VEE
04-28-2005, 01:28 PM
My pipes may be old, but they still work.
LOL!! I think I am older then you. :D