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Sherpa
06-07-2005, 06:28 AM
GM to cut 25,000 jobs by '08
CEO says automaker plans unspecified number of plant closings.
June 7, 2005: 9:54 AM EDT
NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Embattled automaker General Motors Corp. anticipates an unspecified number of plant closings in the next three and half years to cut U.S. employment by 25,000 workers, Chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner told shareholders Tuesday.
The head of the world's No. 1 automaker did not give any details other than to say GM needs to cut capacity by the end of 2008.
He said the company's goal is to trim U.S. capacity so that the company gets to 100 percent utilization or better.
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GM (up $0.58 to $31.00, Research) also announced plans to buy more components from suppliers outside the United States, and reported it couldn't yet be sure if it would win needed health care cost reductions from the United Auto Workers union.
A spokesman for the union wasn't immediately available for comment.
GM's UAW contract essentially forces it to pay employees during the life of the contract, even the hourly worker's plant is closed and he or she is laid off. But those protections only run through fall of 2007, when the current four-year pact with the union ends.
GM's Web site says it now has about 181,000 employed in North America, including plants in Canada and Mexico.
Wagoner said GM is committed to trying to win union approval for health care cost savings under the current labor agreement, but added that he couldn't promise shareholders he'd be successful.
"In recent weeks, we have been in intense discussions with the UAW and our other unions focused on a cooperative approach to significantly reduce our health care cost disadvantage," he said. "All parties are working hard on it, in the spirit of addressing a huge risk to our collective futures while providing greater security and good benefits for our employees."
Wagoner said that, for now, GM is committed to trying to trim health care costs in cooperation with the union. His prepared remarks did suggest that there are other options available to the company to save on health care if the union does not agree to changes, although he added, "I don't believe that it serves a useful purpose to speculate on that."

cdog
06-07-2005, 07:38 AM
Same ole stupid story. These CEO's don't get it. They build lame cars, cut out the classics and milk the current production for 3 years too long and have the balls to blame everything on health care. I'm not excited to buy a new 48k truck that's half made from red china. POOR LEADERSHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FIRE THE CEO WITH NO BENIFITS OR SEVERANCE PACKAGE!!!!!!!!!!

Dave C
06-07-2005, 08:10 AM
I have to agree.... If GM keeps it up, they will be passed by Toyota as #1 in sales. thats pathetic.
Toyota has been negotiating to open new production plants in the U.S. Hopefully those lay-offs from GM will find jobs at Toyota
GM needs to clean up their act. That goes for everyone, management and labor. Being uncompetitive is an institutional thing.

Biglue
06-07-2005, 08:15 AM
I have to agree.... If GM keeps it up, they will be passed by Toyota as #1 in sales. thats pathetic.
Toyota has been negotiating to open new production plants in the U.S. Hopefully those lay-offs from GM will find jobs at Toyota
GM needs to clean up their act. That goes for everyone, management and labor. Being uncompetitive is an institutional thing.
To tell you the truth Toyota is a already in gear to pass them up in the near future. They have the Scion, and Lexus lines available. If they step up their trucks to compete with the F250's and GM's HD's I think there is no stoping them.

cdog
06-07-2005, 08:54 AM
To tell you the truth Toyota is a already in gear to pass them up in the near future. They have the Scion, and Lexus lines available. If they step up their trucks to compete with the F250's and GM's HD's I think there is no stoping them.
Jap trucks still can't compete. Their made out of recycled american cars. They fall apart when put to the test of what a real truck can do. They're perfect for a guy with a dirtbike or the trip to home depot for some plants but not much more than that.

rivercrazy
06-07-2005, 09:25 AM
Fall apart? My last few Toyota trucks had well over 140K miles on them without any problems. Didn't even burn oil unlike the last chevy I had which burned oil since day one to the tune of 1 quart every 2K miles. I also tow a boat that's 6,000 pounds with a Tundra and it handles the load great.
Both Nissan and Toyota plan on introducing 3/4 ton diesel truck into the US market in the next year or two. After that the domestic's are in real trouble.....
Last I checked, the domestics don't even produce their own Diesels or heavy duty tranny's and most of the trucks are built in Canada and Mexico. Whatzzzsup with that?

Dave C
06-07-2005, 09:54 AM
I hate to say it but my Toyota truck was built 100% better than my chevys and Fords. We ran it hard and it held up just fine. ;) Why are most hard-core rock crawling wheelers built are Toyotas? :notam:
If Toyota would actually make a full size truck that is actually "full size" they would make a killing.
I know all about Toyota sales. they are expected to overtake GM very soon as sales leader.
Its funny but the CEO of Toyota is afraid of a backlash once that happens, so Toyota is looking for joint-ventures where they invest within the U.S. borders such as opening manufacturing plants here (i.e. employing U.S. workers), etc.

rivercrazy
06-07-2005, 10:04 AM
If Toyota would actually make a full size truck that is actually "full size" they would make a killing.
Have you seen the newer Toyota DoubleCab? I think if you saw one parked next to a competing Chevy, Dodge, or Ford, I think you'd be surprised. Full sized deep bed and impressive sized cabin. And they really know how to use technology in an engine to make strong reliable power. 282HP and 335 lb of torque (a just a little over 3K rpm) out of 4.7L is pretty darn respectable.

Dave C
06-07-2005, 10:13 AM
not yet.. they were in serious need of "upsizing" for more than 10 years. If they finally did it, then its about time. :D
Nissan looks like they finally released a full size too but I haven't looked at that either.
Their full size trucks were always 2/3 the sized they need to be for the American market. Must have been those 2/3 sized short-ass japanese engineers. ;)
Have you seen the newer Toyota DoubleCab? I think if you saw one parked next to a competing Chevy, Dodge, or Ford, I think you'd be surprised. Full sized deep bed and impressive sized cabin. And they really know how to use technology in an engine to make strong reliable power. 282HP and 335 lb of torque (a just a little over 3K rpm) out of 4.7L is pretty darn respectable.

rivercrazy
06-07-2005, 10:18 AM
LOL! They don't eat steak and potatoes like we do here!
Even the die hard Toyota Truck owners call them 7/8's full sized which is just about right. But with the new Doublecab - its changed. The back seat is huge and the bed is a little over 6' long and much deeper/wider.
I have one and its much harder to park than my former 7/8's scale Tundra.
I'm hearing pretty solid rumors that a 5.4L V8 and an available diesel will come up in 2007 in a 3/4 ton variant. I might be upgrading about then...

cdog
06-07-2005, 10:26 AM
Their full size trucks are more like 1/4 ton. Not quite equal to a 1/2 chevy or ford. I had a toyota truck with the v-6 and it was a piece of shit.....Swore never again. I put 360k miles on my 92 chevy 1/2 ton, I used it for work, after 160k miles I blew out the rear end but after that never had another problem. The jap trucks are very stingy when it come to hp and tq. Like I said the toy was great for stupid house stuff but when I needed a real truck it fell way short.

sorry dog
06-07-2005, 10:33 AM
Market share declining + pension & health benefits increasing = A slow death for GM.
I think the trucks are OK but the cars are totally uncompetitive. I've driven several of their new mainstream type models lately and even a Hyundai Sonata is better now... it's pretty sad and an article in the WSJ said they canceled development on new sedan platform because they anticipated the cash would not be available for that and the estimated payouts for pension/benefit obligations.

PHX ATC
06-07-2005, 10:36 AM
They're perfect for a guy with a dirtbike or the trip to home depot for some plants but not much more than that.
There's a huge market for that out there...homebody guy's who have a small toy, don't do any towing, yet want the versatility of a run to the Depot or a quickie camping trip. HUGE market for that.
Most of us here on the boards aren't in that market though. :rollside:

PHX ATC
06-07-2005, 10:38 AM
Last I checked, the domestics don't even produce their own Diesels or heavy duty tranny's and most of the trucks are built in Canada and Mexico. Whatzzzsup with that?
Cummins diesel engine made in the USA. As far as the rest...I think most engines/trannies are made here but maybe with Japanese logos/design, I'm not too terribly sure. My 2 Dodge trucks are both built in Mexico. Good? Bad? I dunno.

Liberator TJ1984
06-07-2005, 10:44 AM
I have to agree.... If GM keeps it up, they will be passed by Toyota as #1 in sales. thats pathetic.
Toyota has been negotiating to open new production plants in the U.S. Hopefully those lay-offs from GM will find jobs at Toyota
GM needs to clean up their act. That goes for everyone, management and labor. Being uncompetitive is an institutional thing.
Just north of me in San Antonio,Tx. they have started ground breaking on their new Truck Plant and are already taking Job apps. it's supposed to be friggin' HUGE :confused:
on the radio they are asking for approx. 2000 people for electronic techs alone :eek:

sorry dog
06-07-2005, 10:44 AM
Their full size trucks are more like 1/4 ton. Not quite equal to a 1/2 chevy or ford. I had a toyota truck with the v-6 and it was a piece of shit.....Swore never again. I put 360k miles on my 92 chevy 1/2 ton, I used it for work, after 160k miles I blew out the rear end but after that never had another problem. The jap trucks are very stingy when it come to hp and tq. Like I said the toy was great for stupid house stuff but when I needed a real truck it fell way short.
Actually the axle and gear size on my landcruiser is lot closer to Dana60 size (3/4 ton) than Dana44/ GM 10 bolt size (1/2).
I'm surprised you got that many miles out of a 1/2 ton tranny. I used to track all the repairs at my last job for a contractor and 7 out of 8 had their 4l60e die before 150k, and the 350 vortecs were prone to leaking manifold gaskets... mine slowly leaked enough coolant into the motor and cooked all the bearings @ 155k. I really really hated that truck.
But I've driven a 3/4 ton 454 and that one was at 225k before we traded it...sorry to see that one go.

ptboat
06-07-2005, 10:50 AM
I think GM should bring in workers from Mexico, China and India and pay them like 50 cents an hour with no health benefit. Now, I can buy a GM truck for only $500.00 each. Wouldn't that be nice ? :D

cdog
06-07-2005, 10:51 AM
I think a toy would start rolling backwards trying to tow my boat up chiraco summit. Nothing beats chevy and ford 3/4 ton trucks. But they do have room for improvement. Most people don't need a truck that heavy duty so the market share for thses trucks are differant than 1/2 ton trucks. GM needs a complete overhaul of their buisness plan and lineup. More desiels and better mpg with more power.....= market share.....Also bring back the camaro with the Big Hp ls6 and ls7 option. It makes more sense to have the best out of every class of car and truck then 5 of the same breed of lame boring car. Leave the econo shit box cars to the Japs.

cdog
06-07-2005, 11:04 AM
Actually the axle and gear size on my landcruiser is lot closer to Dana60 size (3/4 ton) than Dana44/ GM 10 bolt size (1/2).
I'm surprised you got that many miles out of a 1/2 ton tranny. I used to track all the repairs at my last job for a contractor and 7 out of 8 had their 4l60e die before 150k, and the 350 vortecs were prone to leaking manifold gaskets... mine slowly leaked enough coolant into the motor and cooked all the bearings @ 155k. I really really hated that truck.
But I've driven a 3/4 ton 454 and that one was at 225k before we traded it...sorry to see that one go.
I think that one was a 700 R4. I did the tranny fluid replacement every 40k miles and did the big cooler and pan. I did most of my work in phoenix in 115 deg. heat back then so I really kept up on the maintainence. I also replaced the rear end with the 14 bolt 1/2 ton unit that was avaliable by special order and never had a problem past that. I got it out of the junk yard for $350 and never had a problem. I t was a great truck. My 96 that I replaced it with was great too. In fact I sold that to my dad who still drives it. The 4x4 silenoid went out in it, a seat actuator went bad and a dist. went bad but that was because the seal was'nt replaced correctly between the cap and housing but that's all the problems so far with over 180k miles. I've had the best of luck with my chevy's and I don't baby them.

Sherpa
06-07-2005, 11:17 AM
the big problem with american auto makers is they only look about 5-10 years
out. the japanese auto makers are looking 20-40 years out.....
everybody remember the gas crunch of the early 70's? alot of people went out
and bought a $2,500 strippo toyota..... and then ran that car till it had 200k
on it, and might have changed a battery, brakes once, and an alternator.....
then went and resold the car, and bought another one cause the first one
was soo friggen good on lasting..............
they started with the strippo cars.... then got a little bit bigger... (almost no
one was watching this happen) now, you got Lexus, bigger toyotas, bigger
nissans, (of old Datsun fame) Acura, and list goes on.......... they're cars
have remained reliable...... check the value of a 5 year old Honda Accord
VS a comparable domestic offering....... it's a joke really......
so the big wigs at GM are now wanting to kill benefits to US workers... then
they want to out-source more parts.... it's not getting and rosier here soon.
I still love CHevy's.... And I still LIKE my ford, but the little Nissan I bought
used at 60k on it, now has 88 on it, runs like a scalded cat, hasn't used
any parts yet, and I can still get the 4500 I paid for it back tommorrow....
--Sherpa
this in by no way means I don't want another CHevy....... Jay-?

sorry dog
06-07-2005, 11:19 AM
don't think the Camaro/Firebird is gonna make it especially with the GTO flopping...
The mustang out sold it something like 2 to 1 and I can see why... Camaro was great to race around in and was very fast but it wasn't very practical to live with...Mustang was better everyday car.
Cdog - you're right... not much competition at the 3/4 1 ton level, but I think the 1/2 ton stuff is different.
I've towed with V6 T100 some and it handles a 2000 pound boat well, but probably wouldn't be good for more than that. That truck is still in the family and has 160k miles with little trouble.
Basically I think nobody makes a perfect one and all will have their issues.

cjordan
06-07-2005, 04:16 PM
My Duramax is built by Isuzu....nuff said... ;)

LLGirl
06-07-2005, 07:12 PM
Leave the econo shit box cars to the Japs.
I never respond to the "American" vs "Japanese" truck threads, because it's kind of entertaining reading all the bantering that goes back and forth... but this comment just put a pit in my stomach. I not only work at Toyota HQ in Torrance, but happen to be the immigration coordinator that handles all of our Japan Staff and their families when they come from Toyota Motor Corp (Japan) to do their assignments at Toyota Motor Sales (USA). I have to say these people are the most kind, humble, intelligent and hard working people I've ever met. I usually prefer to work with them than most of our American Staff. Hate to tell you guys, but Toyota is now more "American" than Mexico/Canada built Cheverolet. I have to say I am quite proud to work for Toyota, and my Lexus drives like a dream :D

cdog
06-07-2005, 07:47 PM
I never respond to the "American" vs "Japanese" truck threads, because it's kind of entertaining reading all the bantering that goes back and forth... but this comment just put a pit in my stomach. I not only work at Toyota HQ in Torrance, but happen to be the immigration coordinator that handles all of our Japan Staff and their families when they come from Toyota Motor Corp (Japan) to do their assignments at Toyota Motor Sales (USA). I have to say these people are the most kind, humble, intelligent and hard working people I've ever met. I usually prefer to work with them than most of our American Staff. Hate to tell you guys, but Toyota is now more "American" than Mexico/Canada built Cheverolet. I have to say I am quite proud to work for Toyota, and my Lexus drives like a dream :D
Get your toy out of it's box and lets chain it up to my suburban. The victor will be the real truck. :D ....That's great, they might be a good company, fact is they don't make real trucks. But they have the econo shit box market nailed. Their cars and trucks are for mass market group of consumers. They don't make one truck or suv that will tow a big boat up chirico summit at 70 mph let alone 55 mph. You live here on the west coast .....If you went to texas,louisanna or michigan you'd see the GM plants that employ whole city's.
I really don't agree with your toyota is more american comment. I am one of the few that have nothing but + experiances with my chevy's and had real bad experiances with toyotas.

Dawn Patrol
06-07-2005, 07:56 PM
Have you seen the newer Toyota DoubleCab? I think if you saw one parked next to a competing Chevy, Dodge, or Ford, I think you'd be surprised. Full sized deep bed and impressive sized cabin. And they really know how to use technology in an engine to make strong reliable power. 282HP and 335 lb of torque (a just a little over 3K rpm) out of 4.7L is pretty darn respectable.
If the Toyota or Nissan could pull something like whats in the Pic, then they would be considered a "Full Size Truck". They still have a long way to go.
My last two Toyota trucks both went over 150K without ANY mechanical problems what so ever. Can anyone say that about their Ford or Chevy? I know I can't........ :umm:
My 2002 HD 8.1/Allison has spent way too much time at the dealership.
1) Leaking tranny fluid, twice.
2) Leaking Transfer Case. Ended up replacing case, warp surface.
3) Replaced front hubs
4) Worn out Pitman arm & Idler Arm
5) Heater core
6) and today, it was on the rack getting new tires and brakes, the front seal on the engine is leaking oil, and there is some tranny fluid on the cross member.........
Will definately look at Toyota when they make a Real Truck.
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/5989Pismo_Beach_7-4-03.jpg

LLGirl
06-07-2005, 08:06 PM
Oops - double post!

LLGirl
06-07-2005, 08:07 PM
Get your toy out of it's box and lets chain it up to my suburban. The victor will be the real truck. :D ....That's great, they might be a good company, fact is they don't make real trucks. But they have the econo shit box market nailed. Their cars and trucks are for mass market group of consumers. They don't make one truck or suv that will tow a big boat up chirico summit at 70 mph let alone 55 mph. You live here on the west coast .....If you went to texas,louisanna or michigan you'd see the GM plants that employ whole city's.
I really don't agree with your toyota is more american comment. I am one of the few that have nothing but + experiances with my chevy's and had real bad experiances with toyotas.
First of all, I'm not exactly sure what a shit box is, but - whatever.
You're right, their cars and trucks are for mass market group of consumers - which is why they are doing so well. If they only targeted the people who need to pull big boats up Chiriaco Summit, they wouldn't be doing that great.
The states in the midwest you are talking about is the Heartland. Toyota definitely has their eyes on that target, hence the ground breaking of the San Antonio, TX truck plant.
I'm not bashing Chevy trucks, my husband's is parked in the garage right now. It's pushing 200,000 miles with some minor bumps in the road. He's always been diehard Chevy fan, but just mentioned recently that as soon as Toyota builds a 3/4 ton diesel, he'd consider getting one.
I certainly didn't intend to get on my Toyota high-horse, it's just that your comment about 'Japs' and their 'econo shit boxes' just bugged me and I had to respond/defend! :D

HammerDown
06-08-2005, 03:06 AM
Don't think I can EVER bring myself to owning a vehicle with a "foreign name plate" ...built in this country or not.

cjordan
06-08-2005, 04:33 AM
I happen to be from an area where there are the following plants: GM, Ford, Toyota. Toyota Motor Manufacturing NA headquarters is 10 minutes away. They build Camry's 45 min away. Everyone I know that works at Toyota loves what they do wether its in the HQ or working on the (Non-Union) assembly line in Georgetown. The corporate guys work their asses off and in many cases could use more staff, but they stay lean......I only know a couple of Ford people and they seem to like what they do, but have the "don't mees with my benefits", "the company owes me" mentality....The GM person I know works in Detroit in "corporate" (advertising for dealers) he has been with both Ford and Honda previously....in his opinion GM is way to big for anyone to manage, the dealers in general think the parent is on crack with some of the stuff they pull. GM is great at mass producing cars no one wants.....What surprised him the most is there is absolutly no accountability for mistakes that happen, in some cases to the tune of a few million $$. Even if the blame clearly falls on someone it just gets swept under the rug. To me, look at the last union contract...95% of pay for 2yrs even if you get laid off.......... :supp: can you think of anyone you know with anywhere even close to that kind of benefit? :rolleyes:
I own a Chevy 2500HD crew cab diesel truck and love it. My 01 2500 Suburban 8.1L that inhaled oil, rear end going out (again) and was out of warrenty so I traded it. I had a 97' 2500 burb before (bot used) that had 200k when I sold it with few issues. No consistency.... IMO, GM and F should thank their lucky stars that Toyota and others have not gone after the BIG truck / SUV market because that is about the only thing they make any $$ on.

Liberator TJ1984
06-08-2005, 05:23 AM
Quoted by Cjordan;
IMO, GM and F should thank their lucky stars that Toyota and others have not gone after the BIG truck / SUV market because that is about the only thing they make any $$ on.
I'm kinda thinkin' they are fixin' to go in for the Kill real Soon :idea: