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mirvin
08-19-2005, 09:16 AM
So I understand why the teachers union needs to lie about the governator but what's with the firemen??
I'm talking about the commercials that are running on tv right now. THey don't really say much other then the gov. is being unfair to the firemen and that he's a bad bad man.
I'm not saying anyone's right or wrong, just looking for the backstory :wink:
mirvin

Vada
08-19-2005, 09:18 AM
I wish I could tell you Merv Man :cool:

JB in so cal
08-19-2005, 09:21 AM
with all of the FF's on here, you'll get an ass load of info soon enough. :idea:

mirvin
08-19-2005, 09:22 AM
with all of the FF's on here, you'll get an ass load of info soon enough. :idea:
Uh oh....sounds like there might be trouble:hammerhea

Sleek-Jet
08-19-2005, 09:26 AM
Probably because Unions have always alligned themselves with the Democrats and Ahhnold is a Republicrat...
What's funny is that most union members that I know are pretty conservative in their views, something the Democratic party is not, nor has been for decades, and most vote Republican.
It's a mad, mad world I tell ya. :D

JB in so cal
08-19-2005, 09:28 AM
Probably because Unions have always alligned themselves with the Democrats and Ahhnold is a Republicrat...
What's funny is that most union members that I know are pretty conservative in their views, something the Democratic party is not, nor has been for decades, and most vote Republican.
It's a mad, mad world I tell ya. :D
Great movie. (one more mad) Flying was done by Tallmantz - Twin Beech through the billboard!! :eek:

mirvin
08-19-2005, 09:28 AM
That makes sense Sleek.
I remember hearing something about maybe he was messing with OT and or retirement pay structures....??

JB in so cal
08-19-2005, 09:32 AM
I think it has alot to do with perceptions.

UnionJack
08-19-2005, 09:33 AM
I know the ave. FF made 115k in my town last year. Now true some of that was from the federal government.

JB in so cal
08-19-2005, 09:35 AM
Does someone have popcorn handy? :idea:

desertbird
08-19-2005, 09:39 AM
I don't know what union that is with the dopey firefighter talking $hit. Firefighters I know are pretty content with their work week (24 hrs on, 72 off, etc) and they make a pretty good wage.
The new commercial that really gets me is the old broad whose too fat too walk and has her illegal immigrant personal assistant bitching about minimum wage!!!! :mad:
http://www.governor.ca.gov/govsite/images/gov_AS.jpg

cdog
08-19-2005, 09:42 AM
I'm not really sure what's going on there. All I know is " You have to break some eggs to make an omelet". So many sides pointing fingers like little kids on the playground. Teachers are funded well enough. More money is not the answer to teach kids. The best teachers i've had never used a book.

Flashover
08-19-2005, 09:45 AM
Usually when the FF start coming out and talking like that it is because someone is messing with there retirement bennafits. :crossx:

cdog
08-19-2005, 09:51 AM
One more thing to add to my last post.....If we were not handing out free healthcare and teaching illegals kids who drain the budgets, we would not have any budget short commings. But what goverment will not tell you is how they all benifit from this. They con us into the humanity side of the subject and then tax us more because the quality and resources go down and in the meantime they create their own job security because now there's more asses that they get paid to wipe.
This is why it was said once that democracy is a project that was only intended to last 200 years. This is why we as americans have to right to bear arms. Ca is a small example of what is to come of our country's future. Very Very sad......
This is what I believe to be the bigger picture. I don't blame firemen for trying to protect their asses and retirement. The firemen I know, know the truth. I wish they would put them on TV.

Kilrtoy
08-19-2005, 10:01 AM
he is trying to cut their death benefits and other benefits....
ARNOLD is a PIECE OF SHIAT.............
taking bribes from people bigger than GRAY ever did and then lying about it....

Vada
08-19-2005, 10:04 AM
It's not a tumor!

GOTLDH
08-19-2005, 11:32 AM
whats Gov. F*&kHEAD up to you ask? Well there are alot of shady deals going on right but now but the ones you are seeing on tv are about the bennies. He is trying to reduce the amount the state will contribute for its fire fighters. That dip shit is also trying to cut the line of duty death compensation. I read a post stating that the FF in his community are making 115k and so on, well thats true. Those are city fireman paid by the city / county tax blah blah blah. we are paid by the state, we are the lowest paid in the state to be exact. The shift thing, well thats another city perk. When you first start as a seasonal for the state you work a 96 hour ( thats not a type o) work week and will bring home somewhere around $38,000 in a year. The FF in the south are usualy working for nine months out of the year and will get laid off for the other three. When you break down the salary to the hour, without FSLA ( Gaurenteed ot for working more that 56 hours in a week) theese poor guys are not even making min. wage. The FSLA that i mentioned is ot that the state must pay us for working more than 56 hours in a week. Now some of you might say 40 hours of ot per week, hell ya, well hold on. Their FSLA OT is not at time and a half like you think, no its at half time. yes thats right less than their hourly rate. We had bargained with davis for that rate to increase to time and a half over the course of sevral years now Gov. F&^K Head is trying to take that away. The only reason the state FF make a decent wage is the FSLA and their ot. with all the fires in CA its not uncommon to be stuck at work for weeks at a time, even a month. Just alittle insite on whats going on with the commercials. O ya plus he wants to barrow money out of their retirement fund with no guarantee hell put it back.

mirvin
08-19-2005, 11:53 AM
Thanks GOTLDH. ;)
So it sounds like whatever he's doing is really only effecting the "state firefighters"??? Is that accurate? How many firefighters fall into this category??
THe add sure makes it seem like the guys at the end of my block in the local firehouse are gonna be suffering........but you're saying those guys are NOT "state employees"?
mirvin

Havasu_Dreamin
08-19-2005, 12:18 PM
Here are the propositions from the Secretary of States Website.
All propositions
http://www.ss.ca.gov/elections/elections_j.htm#2005Special
Proposition 73 Waiting Period and Parental Notification Before Termination of Minor's Pregnancy.
http://www.ss.ca.gov/elections/bp_nov05/entire73.pdf
Proposition 74 Public School Teachers. Waiting Period for Permanent Status. Dismissal. Initiative Statute.
http://www.ss.ca.gov/elections/bp_nov05/entire74.pdf
Proposition 75 Public Employee Union Dues. Restrictions on Political Contributions. Employee Consent Requirement. Initiative Statute.
http://www.ss.ca.gov/elections/bp_nov05/entire75.pdf
Proposition 76 State Spending and School Funding Limits. Initiative Constitutional Amendment.
http://www.ss.ca.gov/elections/bp_nov05/entire76.pdf
Proposition 77 - Redistricting. Initiative Constitutional Amendment.
http://www.ss.ca.gov/elections/bp_nov05/entire77.pdf
Proposition 78 Discounts on Prescription Drugs. Initiative Statute.
http://www.ss.ca.gov/elections/bp_nov05/entire78.pdf
Proposition 79 Prescription Drug Discounts. State-Negotiated Rebates. Initiative Statute.
http://www.ss.ca.gov/elections/bp_nov05/entire79.pdf
Proposition 80 - Electric Service Providers. Regulation. Initiative Statute.
http://www.ss.ca.gov/elections/bp_nov05/entire80.pdf

SDLifesaver
08-19-2005, 12:36 PM
I want to address the 115,000 salary comment Union Jack made. That is a salary for someone who works a crap load of OT. That is also a salary for a Battalion Chief or Captain working some OT. I work for a District in San Diego County and 6 figures is atainable but not without some OT days. Arnold is doing some back door stuff to alot of labor groups and I don't have all the facts but that is not an average salary for all Firefighters. 70,000 to 90,000 is more common. My .02

Family4Day
08-19-2005, 01:32 PM
One current hot topic is our retirement which is factored at a rate of 3 percent x number of years you have worked. This is referred to as 3 percent at 50(the age you are elegible to retire at). Our cap is 90 percent for our retirement income. Cities ususally contribute 9 percent to retirement which is PERS(public emplyoee retirement system). Arnold wants to create a seperate retirement system for new hires that is appr. 2 or 2.5 percent x 30. While 60 - 75 percent of your salary might sound like alot, after taxes, etc., it's not much. The other topic that someone mentioned is FLSA. That is the Fair Labor Standard Act. We(Firefighters) work 24 hour shift, which equalls 56 hours worked per week. We are paid 14.40 hours of overtime every 27 days. The FLSA is your half time. If you work an overtime, you are paid 1x on one pay period and the other .5 on the FLSA pay period evry 27 days. With my department if you take a vacation day or call in sick, you lose your FLSA for that period. To gain it back for that period, you need to work 1 1/2 shifts OT to get back to even. There is always two sides to every story, but the Gov wants to take away things that we have negotiated and given up other things for. FLSA is equal to about 2.7 percent of our salary, losing that takes away money every month. Firefighters have a bitchen career, our work schedule allows rievr trips mid week, multiple days home, but the draw back is holdiays worked, and being a political hot topic every election year. As Union Jack pointed out $115K can be made, but usually that is with a few large fires( being gone a week at a time), and working lots of overtime ( usually holidays). Sorry for the rant but, wanted to get my 2 cents out.
Todd

little rowe boat
08-19-2005, 01:38 PM
To make over 100 grand a year a firefighter must work shit loads of OT. Believe me a firefighters salary is not in the 100 grand ballpark. Our shit head governor is trying to screw up our retirement,has already taken away workers comp. benefits,trying to cut death benefits
This affects firefighters,state and municipal,cops,teachers,city,county workers and so on.
The commercials are not misleading,they are trying to draw attention to what Arnold is doing to many public workers.

little rowe boat
08-19-2005, 01:41 PM
One current hot topic is our retirement which is factored at a rate of 3 percent x number of years you have worked. This is referred to as 3 percent at 50(the age you are elegible to retire at). Our cap is 90 percent for our retirement income. Cities ususally contribute 9 percent to retirement which is PERS(public emplyoee retirement system). Arnold wants to create a seperate retirement system for new hires that is appr. 2 or 2.5 percent x 30. While 60 - 75 percent of your salary might sound like alot, after taxes, etc., it's not much. The other topic that someone mentioned is FLSA. That is the Fair Labor Standard Act. We(Firefighters) work 24 hour shift, which equalls 56 hours worked per week. We are paid 14.40 hours of overtime every 27 days. The FLSA is your half time. If you work an overtime, you are paid 1x on one pay period and the other .5 on the FLSA pay period evry 27 days. With my department if you take a vacation day or call in sick, you lose your FLSA for that period. To gain it back for that period, you need to work 1 1/2 shifts OT to get back to even. There is always two sides to every story, but the Gov wants to take away things that we have negotiated and given up other things for. FLSA is equal to about 2.7 percent of our salary, losing that takes away money every month. Firefighters have a bitchen career, our work schedule allows rievr trips mid week, multiple days home, but the draw back is holdiays worked, and being a political hot topic every election year. As Union Jack pointed out $115K can be made, but usually that is with a few large fires( being gone a week at a time), and working lots of overtime ( usually holidays). Sorry for the rant but, wanted to get my 2 cents out.
Todd
Good post,very informative.

cdog
08-19-2005, 01:43 PM
I think people need to start asking why. Instead of blaming arnold. If we were not giving out free health care to non citizens and teaching their kids at our public schools, we'd have the cash and not have to cut peoples beni's. The sad part is the truth is still not being discussed....

mirvin
08-19-2005, 01:43 PM
Thanks Todd. That's exactly what I'm looking for.....Real information instead of "that guy's a dick" and all that bs :wink:
The problem is that none of the adds are believable. Most people saw right through the teachers union adds and now when I see the FF add thats running right now it looks and sounds like the same kind of bs. That's why I asked the question. Nobody wants to take stuff away from anyone but if you listen to Arnold he says he's trying to fix the fluff deals that Davis handed out.
Arnold is out there giving pretty consice information but the unions are just slinging mudd. WIth today's atmosphere here in Cali the mudslingers are gonna lose.
Anyone else got any real info??
mirvin :wink:

mirvin
08-19-2005, 01:46 PM
I think people need to start asking why. Instead of blaming arnold. If we were not giving out free health care to non citizens and teaching their kids at our public schools, we'd have the cash and not have to cut peoples beni's. The sad part is the truth is still not being discussed....
Exactly. The legislature hands out all the money and then cries about needing more to pay for police and ff. That will start changing once Prop 77 passes and we get a more balanced state legislature.

little rowe boat
08-19-2005, 01:47 PM
Thanks Todd. That's exactly what I'm looking for.....Real information instead of "that guy's a dick" and all that bs :wink:
The problem is that none of the adds are believable. Most people saw right through the teachers union adds and now when I see the FF add thats running right now it looks and sounds like the same kind of bs. That's why I asked the question. Nobody wants to take stuff away from anyone but if you listen to Arnold he says he's trying to fix the fluff deals that Davis handed out.
Arnold is out there giving pretty consice information but the unions are just slinging mudd. WIth today's atmosphere here in Cali the mudslingers are gonna lose.
Anyone else got any real info??
mirvin :wink:
You have blinders on. It would not matter what we said you wouldn't believe it.

mirvin
08-19-2005, 01:48 PM
To make over 100 grand a year a firefighter must work shit loads of OT. Believe me a firefighters salary is not in the 100 grand ballpark. Our shit head governor is trying to screw up our retirement,has already taken away workers comp. benefits,trying to cut death benefits
This affects firefighters,state and municipal,cops,teachers,city,county workers and so on.
The commercials are not misleading,they are trying to draw attention to what Arnold is doing to many public workers.
Again, I'm asking you to show me where that's written. I'm not saying he's not trying to do that, I just can't find any info stating that. Also, the best I can find is that the changes will be for new hires, not existing staff.

mirvin
08-19-2005, 01:49 PM
You have blinders on. It would not matter what we said you wouldn't believe it.
How's that???

Havasu_Dreamin
08-19-2005, 01:50 PM
You have blinders on. It would not matter what we said you wouldn't believe it.
Defending your position by attacking someone is not the best way to show that your position has any merit.
I read the proposition that addresses the Public Unions and nowhere in that proposition did it say that any benefits would be cut off.

mirvin
08-19-2005, 01:54 PM
Defending your position by attacking someone is not the best way to show that your position has any merit.
I read the proposition that addresses the Public Unions and nowhere in that proposition did it say that any benefits would be cut off.
Exactly. If the gov is wrong about what he's doing the people do want to know. I'm just saying that the way the unions are going about it pretty much says "we can't win with the truth so we're gonna sling mudd" and that's just not going to work anymore.
THat's why I'm asking.

mirvin
08-19-2005, 02:01 PM
It must be nice to live in your world, where all of the problems can be blamed on beaners, illegals and wetbacks.
Unfortunatley BOB, Illegal aliens cost our state 13 BILION dollars last year. Hmmm, that's about the same as the budget deficit.
Now the cost of beaners and wetbacks......priceless:p
Cdog is correct in the big picture though.

little rowe boat
08-19-2005, 02:02 PM
For firefighters,if you contracted cancer or heart probs while on the job,it was considered presumptive,due to the smokey and toxic environments that we have to work in at times. That is now gone.
The retirement system will not survive with the changes that the governor wants to make. If the new hires do not have to contribute to it,then there will be nothing for the retirees. It will end up like the social security system.
And as for attacking someone that was not an attack. I defend my job and benefits everyday at work and at home. If you are going to believe the governor, then there is nothing I can do to change your mind here on the boards.

cdog
08-19-2005, 02:02 PM
It must be nice to live in your world, where all of the problems can be blamed on beaners, illegals and wetbacks.
Simple checks and balances. If your hungry and I have just enough to feed my family. Guess who's gonna starve? You live in LA LA land. Anyone in their right mind would agree. You need to take care of yourself before you can help others. By the way. What do you propose? Tax Tax Tax??

Havasu_Dreamin
08-19-2005, 02:07 PM
And as for attacking someone that was not an attack. I defend my job and benefits everyday at work and at home. If you are going to believe the governor, then there is nothing I can do to change your mind here on the boards.
I'm not defending one or the other. All I was sying that in any debate, by atacking/insulting/calling names/ etc. when someone disagrees with your position it lessens the imapct of your position, whatever that position may be.
I will say is that I am skeptical of any union that uses these types of commericals to tout their positions just as I am skeptical of any politician that uses the same tactics to tout their position. I apply my skepticism equally. :cool: Each side has their own agenda.

mirvin
08-19-2005, 02:08 PM
For firefighters,if you contracted cancer or heart probs while on the job,it was considered presumptive,due to the smokey and toxic environments that we have to work in at times. That is now gone.
The retirement system will not survive with the changes that the governor wants to make. If the new hires do not have to contribute to it,then there will be nothing for the retirees. It will end up like the social security system.
And as for attacking someone that was not an attack. I defend my job and benefits everyday at work and at home. If you are going to believe the governor, then there is nothing I can do to change your mind here on the boards.
You don't have to change my mind. I'm just a schlub trying to figure out what's what. I dont' work for the governor, nor the state. I am just a taxpayer trying to figure things out.
Ok, maybe you do have to change my mind a little. The opinion I do have is that unions will lie through thier teeth to keep what they have. THat;s what I'm looking for. Is this a union trying to keep it's fat or are these things REALLY going to hurt firemen.
mirvin ;)

mirvin
08-19-2005, 02:10 PM
That's a fallacy. The number is actually much closer to $9 billion a year, which is not compensated by their net gain to our economy. Illegals pay about $2B a year in various state taxes. They also are the backbone to our state's nearly $30 billion a year agricultural industry, much of which would be forced out of business without them.
SO you're saying the taxpayers should be subsidising private industry??
We've gotten off track here.......:rollside:

Havasu_Dreamin
08-19-2005, 02:10 PM
THat;s what I'm looking for. Is this a union trying to keep it's fat or are these things REALLY going to hurt firemen.
To get a completely objective answer on this you need someone who can just give the facts of what will happen without the rhetoric that supports their position or skews the facts in their way.

TCHB
08-19-2005, 02:12 PM
Who do you think hires Illegal aliens here is the USA??? All of us do in one way or another. Who do you think is laying up your boats, building your home in Havasu or digging your new pool? If we stopped hiring illegal workers they would no longer come to this country. It is funny you go Mexico and they will not hire us but we continue to hire them becuase it saves us money in the short term.

JB in so cal
08-19-2005, 02:12 PM
That's a fallacy. The number is actually much closer to $9 billion a year, which is not compensated by their net gain to our economy. Illegals pay about $2B a year in various state taxes. They also are the backbone to our state's nearly $30 billion a year agricultural industry, much of which would be forced out of business without them.
How much HARD US currency do they send to Mexico every year. At least as much as they pay in "taxes"; that money is gone!

Havasu_Dreamin
08-19-2005, 02:14 PM
Most of them would much rather come here legally.
Getting off the original topic and playing devils advocate since you opened it up, with Cdogs's help, how do you know they would prefer to come here legally? And if they would prefer to do that, why don't they? Just curious about the theory/rationale behind your statement.

mirvin
08-19-2005, 02:16 PM
It's an unfortunate fact that many of your posts have the same tenor. I'm sure I'm not the only one that's noticed a theme.
What do I suggest? Make them citizens. Charge them money to come here legally. Make them get SSN's, driver's licenses and pay taxes. Most of them would much rather come here legally. And, then, educate their damn kids so you'll have another ethnic group to blame for your problems 30 years from now.
I'll go with your number: 9 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR. Why are another countrys economic refugees our problem?? How many can we absorb. Don't even get started on Mexico's corrupt government that causes the problems in the first place.
I don't mean to be harsh here, but the days of "you must be a racist" are over with. THis problem is the root of our state's woe's. Ther'es no way around that fact. Until somthing is done to controll this OUT OF CONTROLL problem we're doomed.
I mean look at it. It's so out of controll that we're taking money away from firemen to pay for it???!!!!

little rowe boat
08-19-2005, 02:17 PM
You don't have to change my mind. I'm just a schlub trying to figure out what's what. I dont' work for the governor, nor the state. I am just a taxpayer trying to figure things out.
Ok, maybe you do have to change my mind a little. The opinion I do have is that unions will lie through thier teeth to keep what they have. THat;s what I'm looking for. Is this a union trying to keep it's fat or are these things REALLY going to hurt firemen.
mirvin ;)
Most every fire dept. in the state has it's own local,which decides how it is going to stand on each issue. Each local does not always agree on issues and can decide not to support an issue. Believe me firefighter unions are not fat and usually operate on a strict budget,so when they decide to put up money to fight something it is usually after much debate and many times goes to a vote. These things are going to hurt firefighters as well as many other public employees. I obtained a job in the fire service because it has good benefits, decent pay( I'll never be rich,but I will be comfortable), and a retirement system that I thought I was going to be able to count on when I do retire. Now that is a big ???? When I am 70 yrs. old I do not want to have to get a job as a greeter at walmart

mbrown2
08-19-2005, 02:17 PM
It must be nice to live in your world, where all of the problems can be blamed on beaners, illegals and wetbacks.
LMAO....that is the funniest post I have read on ***boat.....FOR NOW! :):)...my new sig...

Havasu_Dreamin
08-19-2005, 02:23 PM
I was referring to a revamping of the current immigration system, which so obviously does not work.
It will never change. It's a polarizing issue that politicians use to fuel their candidacy. No one wants illegals here legally, but no one wants them to leave. Let me rephrase that. A lot of people want them to leave, but those people are stupid and have never taken a course in economics. You don't relieve yourself of 5 millions people from your work force and continue to operate at the status quo. It will not get better, it will get worse, many of our largest industries will suffer setbacks from which they would never recover.
Ok, agreed, but still, how does that support your statement that most do want to come here legally? If they do, work within the current, albeit flawed, system.
We all talk about no more laws are needed on the lakes/rivers, enforce the current laws on the books. Well, I agree, but you can't say that about one issue and then feel it is ok to disobey/not enforce the law in another area. That's not directed at you personally since we have never met, but more a generalization of the current state of affairs.

cdog
08-19-2005, 02:24 PM
it saves us money in the short term.
Exactly!!!!! Short Term! The side affects to cheap labor is the burdin on social services and lack of innovation. We can pick cotton with a machine but not strawberry's? Why? I now have to give the guy at the car wash a 5 buck tip to wipe down my car because he has a family to support? That's a high school kid job. I have no problem with hispanic decent americans. But I do have a problem with illegals aliens of any race, color or creed. They are our burdin now because of the dumb ass do gooders and poloticians looking for a vote.

mirvin
08-19-2005, 02:26 PM
Who's going to pick the brocolli and cauliflower? Who's going to clean your hotel rooms? Who's going to kick our field goals? You mirvin? cdog? RiverDave? I'm not, that's for damn sure.
That's where the free market comes in. If a company can't do business then it will not succeed.
A box of strawberries will cost 12 dollars but our emergency rooms will be funcioning and our schools will be working and our entire state economy will thrive.
Don't get me wrong here, I got nothing against people. ANY people. But we are being abused by illegal aliens that just so happen to be coming from one particular place. Also, the aliens themselves are being abused by us. IS that right? Just becuase our abuse is better then their lives at home doesn't make it right.

mirvin
08-19-2005, 02:30 PM
You've obviously never applied for US citizenship. Think about going to the DMV, every day, for 5 years. :D
The process needs to be streamlined. Amnesty needs to be offered to those already here. Make it a pay to play. I really don't have the answers, I've never sat down and considered everything involved, but then I don't get paid to do that. I just know, that for many of the illegals, the process is very time consuming and difficult, especially when you want to come over and work NOW.
Here the scenario if there's a blanket amnesty: Every worker who gets amnesty will now demand a living wage. THat's the end of it right there. If we're gonna pay $20 an hour to pick broccoli it better be an American Citizen. So why not just jump there and leave out all the inbetween?

Havasu_Dreamin
08-19-2005, 02:31 PM
You've obviously never applied for US citizenship. Think about going to the DMV, every day, for 5 years. :D
That is ture as I was born in Torrance.
The process needs to be streamlined. Amnesty needs to be offered to those already here. Make it a pay to play. I really don't have the answers, I've never sat down and considered everything involved, but then I don't get paid to do that. I just know, that for many of the illegals, the process is very time consuming and difficult, especially when you want to come over and work NOW.
But shouldn't it be somnewhat difficult, or at least more than just a rubber stamp, to ensure we are not letting the wrong people in? And no, that is not racist, I mean, people on the watch lists and things like that. Don't get me wrong here, I'm sure the process can be improved upon and streamlined, it is the government afterall. :cool:

Havasu_Dreamin
08-19-2005, 02:34 PM
This was a problem that needed to be aggressively dealt with 30 years ago. It's too late now.
Methinks you're right. You very wise man. :D

Havasu_Dreamin
08-19-2005, 02:35 PM
The situation will never be perfect, but it could probably be a lot better.
Oh, for sure. The government operates on the SNAFU principle.

mirvin
08-19-2005, 02:35 PM
You raise some excellent points. We do, for the most part, take advantage of these people. I know it's hard to take advantage of the willing.
The problem with your points, while they are correct and sound, is that CA would be forced into a huge depression during the transition. Nobody wants that. We're not talking about Tennessee here, this is the WORLD'S fifth largest economy. We have all the problems of a mid size country rolled into a state. This was a problem that needed to be aggressively dealt with 30 years ago. It's too late now.
Yeah I know...it happened very slowly. And why not. I mean people have always come here to seek a better life. THat's what America is about. I don't have the answers. I just know something has to be changed.
Anyways, back to the firemen!!!

Havasu_Dreamin
08-19-2005, 02:36 PM
At least it's been a lively debate.

mirvin
08-19-2005, 02:40 PM
Hey HD, TORRANCE RULES :D

Havasu_Dreamin
08-19-2005, 02:42 PM
My grandma lives in Torrance. She's legal. :D
ROFLMAO! :D

Havasu_Dreamin
08-19-2005, 02:42 PM
Hey HD, TORRANCE RULES :D
Born at Torrance Memorial. Lived in Torrance only for the first 6 months and then my parents moved to the San Gabriel Valley.

mirvin
08-19-2005, 02:44 PM
My grandma lives in Torrance. She's legal. :D
I'll decide.....:supp: :D
Thanks for being cool Bob. I always hope to learn something during these discussions but so often they get heated and all I ever learn is that I'm a dic head :D
mirvin

cdog
08-19-2005, 02:45 PM
I'm gonna hang out with some of my beaner family this sat. in torrance. :rollside: My dad's birthday. Most all of my family is from the south bay.

mirvin
08-19-2005, 02:46 PM
Born at Torrance Memorial. Lived in Torrance only for the first 6 months and then my parents moved to the San Gabriel Valley.
I wasn't born here but I grew up here and still live here. About 2 miles from where I grew up and where my folks still live. I was born in Harbor City, not far from here.....

Havasu_Dreamin
08-19-2005, 02:52 PM
I'll decide.....:supp: :D
Thanks for being cool Bob. I always hope to learn something during these discussions but so often they get heated and all I ever learn is that I'm a dic head :D
mirvin
Hey, HEY, HEY! I'm the dickhead around here! :p

Havasu_Dreamin
08-19-2005, 02:53 PM
I wasn't born here but I grew up here and still live here. About 2 miles from where I grew up and where my folks still live. I was born in Harbor City, not far from here.....
Cool. So, uh, did you put the alligator in the lake? :p

blackcloud75
08-19-2005, 02:54 PM
Fukit......................I quit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I will make more and live a better lifestyle managing a McDonalds!!!!!!!!!!
I work to much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am sick of risking my family's life and my life for the public!!!!
I WILL MAN THE FRYER........
BC75

mirvin
08-19-2005, 02:56 PM
Cool. So, uh, did you put the alligator in the lake? :p
LAKE!!!???? That is a friggin duck pond!! I think the whole thing is a stunt set up by Harbor City to make people think they got a dang lake........
Hey Blackcloud75, what do you mean??
mirvin

blackcloud75
08-19-2005, 03:01 PM
What do I mean????????
Obviuosly I get paid too much!!!!!!!!!

mirvin
08-19-2005, 03:05 PM
What do I mean????????
Obviuosly I get paid too much!!!!!!!!!
Hmmm, are you a fireman making 115k?? Man, and you only have to work 4 days a week. That's sweet :notam:
Seriously though.......
mirvin :cool:

blackcloud75
08-19-2005, 03:14 PM
I mean.... I really do like kneeling in feces, going into strangers home with spider webs 3 feet from the floor, checking for pulses on some 24 y/o heroin attic that been dead for a week( or longer?). Or even better yet, being the "bearer" of chicken pox to my kids because the person I helped last night had it. I love working 240 hours a month without OT. And hopefully if I do get OT, because that means disaster and someone is losing their house or loved ones.But that also sucks because I can't see my a family. I want to go back to a 40-hour work week so I can sleep every night.
When I grow up I want to be like Jrocket!!!!!!

blackcloud75
08-19-2005, 03:19 PM
Oh and I can't wait to die 5 years after retirement(average for fireman). But at least I will die with some sort of disability or disease I aquired sitting/sleeping at the station. Or GOD for bid I choke on a piece of popcorn watching a movie at work and someone has to tell my family.

totenhosen
08-19-2005, 03:28 PM
Oh and I can't wait to die 5 years after retirement(average for fireman).
I call BS on that! Show me a source.

mbrown2
08-19-2005, 03:35 PM
Fukit......................I quit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I will make more and live a better lifestyle managing a McDonalds!!!!!!!!!!
I work to much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am sick of risking my family's life and my life for the public!!!!
I WILL MAN THE FRYER........
BC75
Calm Down Bro....
__________________
2004 24' Schiada
2002 Caddy EXT on 35's
1996 H/D Heritage Nostalgia(For Sale)
Looks like you are living pretty good and the fryer position is not going to get you home in a Havasu Monsoon in 4' ft chop...:):)

blackcloud75
08-19-2005, 03:36 PM
Mirv,
I am native american!!!!!!
I am a Fireman for Fun.....I like my $100,000 salary as a public servant...o'wait I get taxed on my salary of $58,000...most people are uneducated as far as public employees salaries for some of us pay our own benefits(retirement/medical minimum 11%-22.2% depending on your employer)

mirvin
08-19-2005, 03:38 PM
[QUOTE=mbrown2]Calm Down Bro....
:rollside: :rollside: :rollside: I'm still trying to figure out if he doesn't like being a fireman or if he's using sarcasm as a method to show his dislike of this thread??
mirvin

mirvin
08-19-2005, 03:41 PM
Mirv,
I am native american!!!!!!
I am a Fireman for Fun.....I like my $100,000 salary as a public servant...o'wait I get taxed on my salary of $58,000...most people are uneducated as far as public employees salaries for some of us pay our own benefits(retirement/medical minimum 11%-22.2% depending on your employer)
I don't mean to step right into the bag of doo doo but, WE in the private sector have to pay our own benne's as well so I'm not following that arguement.

mbrown2
08-19-2005, 03:52 PM
[QUOTE=mbrown2]Calm Down Bro....
:rollside: :rollside: :rollside: I'm still trying to figure out if he doesn't like being a fireman or if he's using sarcasm as a method to show his dislike of this thread??
mirvin
I am sure it is the latter; BC is a hard worker who obviously does not want to have benefits lessened to him.....None of would regardless what the private sector affords...they started a certain career based on pay and benny's and it's hard to see them diminish...

68 Schuster
08-19-2005, 03:59 PM
Long time lurker but wanted to chime in. Very humble opinions only here...
The Governor is trying to do what every bloated US Corporation is trying to do: help balance the budget by raiding pension and employee benefit plans and cutting labor costs. Not sure that he will succeed....but the reality is that several large public pension funds are teetering on the brink of insolvency and threaten to take local governments with them. They have never recovered from the big bets on Wall Street they made and have greater demands on future payouts than envisioned when they made those bets because of smart employee negotiators and longer lived retirees. These must be made whole by general fund cash, usually, which compounds the budget mess local and state governments are in.
In some cases there might not be enough government to cut because at the end of the day, general fund revenues are obligated to contribute to these pension funds. Bond ratings tank when you can't meet future obligations, cost of funds goes up...endless cycle of misery. The economy must grow for government to meet these needs (read higher tax revenues).
I think government at the management and legislative level is just too big and overpaid and serves itself better than it serves the public. It shouldn't be a decision between whether to fund pension benefits to firefighters or fund services to the poor and elderly or schools for that matter.
Finally, just my two cents on immigrant labor..... It is cheap and we need every bit of it we can get. Every single job that can be done cheaper elsewhere will move elsewhere. Economies that cannot count on competitive labor costs and growing populations at the end of the day will end up being owned by those that can. I think we should accept them and provide everyone as much education as possible to help them get competitive. At the end of the day we benefit much more than shutting them out.

mirvin
08-19-2005, 03:59 PM
I am sure it is the latter; BC is a hard worker who obviously does not want to have benefits lessened to him.....None of would regardless what the private sector affords...they started a certain career based on pay and benny's and it's hard to see them diminish...
I can understand that....but that mentallity won't fly in the private sector so why should it in the public sector?
My industry has changed dramatically in the last 10 years. I'm earning half of what I did 5 years ago. HALF. If I went to the brass at my company and used that logic they would laugh me out the door. As it is right now they tell me I'm lucky to have a job........
Just becuase you've had cake everyday doesn't mean you'll get it tomorrow.
Ok, flame on!!!
But that's not what I'm trying to get at here. I just want to know why I should be against the Gov and what I'm supposed to do about it. Is there a proposition I should vote against??? Or should I just vote for the other guy in the next election???
mirvin :wink:

riverfamily
08-19-2005, 04:01 PM
Ok, I think what the Govanator wants is CONTROL of cost. This is what every business owner wants and has to have in order to continue doing business! and yes boys and girls believe it or not the state is a huge business that he is the CEO of. Any body in here who owns a business will tell you that you cannot simply raise the price of your product anytime you please simply to cover more overhead, you can only charge what the market will pay. Right now the market (we legit tax payers) will not pay anymore without a fight, so the Govanator is trying to figure out how to control cost. I know its pissing off the cops(two good neighbors and friends) the firefighters(two more friends) teachers(my best friend for over 20 years, who by the way has never voted once to increase school funding because the stories he tells me about waste) and state employees (my own mother) we have to start somewhere! and you wont let us start with the illegals (oh sorry I mean undocumented immigrants)

GOTLDH
08-19-2005, 04:05 PM
Here's one for you. A firefighter was killed last week when his fire engine crashed on the 10 freeway in Beaumont. That ass told the department to tell his family, sorry we dont have the money right now for a department funeral. Our local union stepped up and payed the million dollar price tag so he could have the funeral he deserved. Gov promised to pay to pay them back at a later date

mbrown2
08-19-2005, 04:09 PM
My industry has changed dramatically in the last 10 years. I'm earning half of what I did 5 years ago. HALF. If I went to the brass at my company and used that logic they would laugh me out the door. As it is right now they tell me I'm lucky to have a job........
What sector would that be? If I were making less now then I was 5 years ago, I don't believe I would remain in the same sector....
Regardless, you always have a choice to fight to keep what you got (that's how they do it in the non-private sector), move on (private sector), or accept it (either sector)....I don't agree with their position all the time, but I can't blame them for fighting for it...

blackcloud75
08-19-2005, 04:14 PM
When I grow up I want to be like Jrocket!!!

blackcloud75
08-19-2005, 04:18 PM
You're right! I am 4'13" with 24" inseam. I got him beat already.

mirvin
08-19-2005, 04:20 PM
What sector would that be? If I were making less now then I was 5 years ago, I don't believe I would remain in the same sector....
Regardless, you always have a choice to fight to keep what you got (that's how they do it in the non-private sector), move on (private sector), or accept it (either sector)....I don't agree with their position all the time, but I can't blame them for fighting for it...
Well, It's just not that easy to walk away from your livelyhood and start over. Not for me or a fireman.
I'm not really even fighting their position, I'm trying to figure out what it is. I'm trying to understand the issue so I can make an educated descision.
Like I said earlier their commercial is not working because it really doesn't say anything tangable. Thats' what I'm asking for.
mirvin
;)

stoker
08-19-2005, 04:23 PM
Here's one for you. A firefighter was killed last week when his fire engine crashed on the 10 freeway in Beaumont. That ass told the department to tell his family, sorry we dont have the money right now for a department funeral. Our local union stepped up and payed the million dollar price tag so he could have the funeral he deserved. Gov promised to pay to pay them back at a later date
A Million dollar funeral?

GOTLDH
08-19-2005, 04:27 PM
Line of duty deaths are a huge deal, in this case it involved the entire state.

blackcloud75
08-19-2005, 04:37 PM
GAME ON! GOVERNOR CALLS SPECIAL ELECTION FOR NOVEMBER
Arnold’s two-phased plan: Silence your voice, then steal your retirement
The game is on.
Hidden in the security of a Capitol TV studio, Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger announced on June 13th that he is calling a special election this fall … an election that could have a profound impact on the life of every California firefighter.
The election, which will cost taxpayers $80 million, was called by the governor as part of a multi-stage attack on more than two million public employees … firefighters, teachers, nurses, cops, bus drivers and other hard-working Californians. The “reform” agenda of Schwarzenegger and his allies would:
Give him new power to slash local and state safety services,
Silence your political voice and
Set the stage for a renewed assault on public employee retirement security in June of 2006.
“Governor Schwarzenegger has declared war on working Californians, especially first responders,” said CPF President Lou Paulson. “If he gets his way, everything we have struggled to achieve over the last three decades could be wiped out.”
At the center of the governor’s power grab is an initiative that imposes new government-mandated restrictions on your union’s ability to compete in local and state politics. The Public Employee Union Dues initiative also requires that records on members’ political activities be sent to Sacramento.
“They call it ‘paycheck protection,’ but the only people whose paycheck is protected are the corporate bigwigs who put up the money for it,” said CPF Secretary Treasurer Dallas Jones. “This isn’t about reform … it’s about power.”
The timing of the governor’s attack is critical.
At the beginning of the year, Schwarzenegger proposed to completely privatize your retirement security – a plan so sweeping that it even eliminated death and disability benefits for firefighter families. Your strong union voice, coupled with that of thousands of teachers, nurses, law enforcement officers and survivors, forced the governor to send his pension plan back to re-write.
If the union dues initiative passes this November, he’ll be back in June of 2006. Only this time, we won’t have the resources to fight back.
“The governor knows he can’t win when the public hears both sides of the story,” noted Paulson. “So first, he’s got to shut us up, so that the only voice the public hears is his, and that of his big-money supporters.”
Another proposal that is potentially devastating for CPF members and their families is Schwarzenegger’s Budget Power Grab initiative. Under the guise of fiscal reform, the plan gives the governor vast new “fiscal emergency” powers to slash local and state safety funding and even void collective bargaining agreements. The plan could also impose automatic caps on local government spending, including money set aside for public safety services.
Even the governor's close allies in local government management say they will oppose this naked power grab.
"The governor's political team is planning a $50 million campaign to create a 'phenomenon of anger' at people like you and I," concluded Paulson. "We won't let him. We will fight him and we will win."

blackcloud75
08-19-2005, 04:40 PM
Don't Look Now -- Arnold's Plan B Could Be Even Worse!
Governor puts items on table that wipe out protections for current and future firefighters
As if we needed another reason to stay active, take a look at what was "below the fold" at the governor's pension announcement.
While the governor has withdrawn his privatization plan for this year, the governor's office has proposed a negotiating path that could pre-empt your current contract, as well as wipe out three decades of protections for all front line firefighters and police officers – today's as well as tomorrow's.
In a series of meetings between stakeholder groups and the governor's staff, the administration circulated a "Pension Discussion" document that includes:
An end to cancer presumptions and 3% at 50
A mandatory spike in employee contributions
Voter approval of any and all benefit increases.
A modified privatization plan
The document was based on policy points put forward by the California State Association of Counties and the California State Sheriffs Association. (SEE FULL RUNDOWN BELOW)
Virtually all of the discussion points put on the table by the governor take direct aim at retirement and disability benefits for front line firefighters and law enforcement officers. The proposals would be state-imposed mandates, meaning that local governments would be prohibited from negotiating benefits that best suit their jurisdiction.
Many of the proposals could be applied to current as well as future firefighters, particularly those dealing with disability retirement. These mandates could also pre-empt your collective bargaining rights.
After the last round of meetings, CSAC, the sheriffs, the League of California Cities, the California Police Chiefs Association and the California Fire Chiefs Association stood with the governor at the press conference at which he announced he was withdrawing his privatization initiative for 2005, but resubmitting for 2006.
CPF did not participate in the governor's media event.
“If enacted in full, the governor’s negotiation package would turn an attack on all public employees into an all-out attack on fire and law enforcement,” said Lou Paulson, President of California Professional Firefighters. “The venue may have changed, but the goal is still the same: steal your retirement security.”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Governor's "Pension Discussion" Document
Public Safety Retirement Changes
Eliminate 3% at 50 or 3% at 55
Mandatory increase in employee contribution rates – when their rate goes up a little, yours goes up a lot.
Cap employer contribution to retirement system -- when times are bad, you pay the whole tab!
“Reform” DROP program
Eliminate airtime
Eliminate one-year final comp
State-mandated limit on employer contributions as percentage of payroll.
Voter approval of all benefit changes “that have a cost”
Disability Retirement
Eliminate cancer and heart presumptions for firefighters and cops
Limits on disability retiree’s ability to work for another agency
Cut off workers compensation benefits for firefighters facing disability retirement

blackcloud75
08-19-2005, 04:40 PM
Source: www.CPF.org

totenhosen
08-19-2005, 04:42 PM
I have the utmost respect for the job that fire fighters and police officers do. Thhey guy no doubt deserves to have a state paid funeral. But I'm sorry a $1MM funeral is a f-ing joke. I'd rather see that $1MM be used to buy better firefighting equipment or armor for the guys in Iraq.

blackcloud75
08-19-2005, 04:47 PM
Who said I had to be Unbiased. I am voicing my concerns and facts of my profession. I am protecting my family, Personal and Professional. I don't think anyone will ever be able to find an unbiased report, it's Politics.

GOTLDH
08-19-2005, 05:11 PM
Well its not just for the funeral. You had to pay for all of the stress debef. the overtime for the personell to get the day off for the funeral, the location it was held at, fly in the family ect. Over 2500 people attented, they needed police and paramedics porta potties, parking. The fire engine was destroyed plus the rest of that crew will be off for a long time, they might not ever return to work. There was ALOT involved in that price tag. I shold have clarified, sorry

totenhosen
08-19-2005, 05:19 PM
Well its not just for the funeral. You had to pay for all of the stress debef. the overtime for the personell to get the day off for the funeral, the location it was held at, fly in the family ect. Over 2500 people attented, they needed police and paramedics porta potties, parking. The fire engine was destroyed plus the rest of that crew will be off for a long time, they might not ever return to work. There was ALOT involved in that price tag. I shold have clarified, sorry
And you don't see that as overkill? Sorry no one deserves a $1MM funeral unless they are footing the bill themselves. Again the guy deserves a state paid funeral but not at tht price. 2,500 people??? of which more than half probably have never even met the guy. I'd rather see that money get spent elsewhere like reinvested back to help firefighters.

Family4Day
08-19-2005, 05:23 PM
Thanks Mirvin and Little Rowe Boat for the compliment. As Little Rowe Boat pointed out also(sorry I forgot to mention!) our presumptive injuries are now gone. The Governor has taken them away. It was once presumptive that if an injury such as heart attack, lung cancer, skin cancer, etc. was found, it was covered by workman's compensation. That is no longer. Firefighters have an expected life span of 7 years after retirement. THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE BASED ON INFO GIVEN TO US. I do not know the source, but that is the standard we hear. There are 90 year old retired Firefighters around, but most do not see that age. Our hearts are worked from zero to 120mph in a second every time the alarm goes off. In the city I work, thats about 4000 times a year. That Alarm Syndrome takes its toll on our hearts. Then there is the unknown chemicals that are inhaled. We DO wear breathing apparatus. But on simple grass fires, suppose the area has oil or other materials dumped and soaked in the ground. Thats inhaled and just burns the lungs. If I were a smoker, I'd be atleast somewhat responsible for lung injuries, but I do not. Arnold has eliminated that from us. I am glad this issue has come to light, but you will always hear 2 sides from everything. All us firefighters have a responsibility to give informed information so others will see our issues and support us instead of questions us.
Todd

GOTLDH
08-19-2005, 05:41 PM
well for one the state has not spent the money, the members did. second, if they knew him or not its a brotherhood, it was a sign of respect showing up, there was a fire engine on every overpass from corona to beaumont. 9orona city, Riverside city, Ontario City, la City, Ranco, us forest service, CDF \ Riverside County. LA County , BLM, San Diego Thats just a few who showed up to pay their respect, not cuz the knew him

Flyinbowtie
08-19-2005, 06:02 PM
The 7 year lifespan after retirment figure comes from the CalPers Actuarials, which are re-calculated on a regular basis to come up with a figure that gives a realistic number for how many years the system will have to pay a benefits before he/she dies.
It is about the same for cops.

little rowe boat
08-19-2005, 06:03 PM
I call BS on that! Show me a source.
It is true the average life expectancy for a retired firefighter is 5 to 15 years after retirement.
Usually due to heart probs.

JB in so cal
08-19-2005, 06:09 PM
Thanks Mirvin and Little Rowe Boat for the compliment. As Little Rowe Boat pointed out also(sorry I forgot to mention!) our presumptive injuries are now gone. The Governor has taken them away. It was once presumptive that if an injury such as heart attack, lung cancer, skin cancer, etc. was found, it was covered by workman's compensation. That is no longer. Firefighters have an expected life span of 7 years after retirement. THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE BASED ON INFO GIVEN TO US. I do not know the source, but that is the standard we hear. There are 90 year old retired Firefighters around, but most do not see that age. Our hearts are worked from zero to 120mph in a second every time the alarm goes off. In the city I work, thats about 4000 times a year. That Alarm Syndrome takes its toll on our hearts. Then there is the unknown chemicals that are inhaled. We DO wear breathing apparatus. But on simple grass fires, suppose the area has oil or other materials dumped and soaked in the ground. Thats inhaled and just burns the lungs. If I were a smoker, I'd be atleast somewhat responsible for lung injuries, but I do not. Arnold has eliminated that from us. I am glad this issue has come to light, but you will always hear 2 sides from everything. All us firefighters have a responsibility to give informed information so others will see our issues and support us instead of questions us.
Todd
I support FF's; my neighbor is an Engineer. However, if all of the above is true, how come every time a position comes open, there are 500-1000 applicants. The last time I applied for a position in the PUBLIC sector (paid about $75k/yr), there wer about 12 other people applying? Must be something good there.

little rowe boat
08-19-2005, 06:14 PM
well for one the state has not spent the money, the members did. second, if they knew him or not its a brotherhood, it was a sign of respect showing up, there was a fire engine on every overpass from corona to beaumont. 9orona city, Riverside city, Ontario City, la City, Ranco, us forest service, CDF \ Riverside County. LA County , BLM, San Diego Thats just a few who showed up to pay their respect, not cuz the knew him
Because it's a brotherhood and it could have been anyone of us.

little rowe boat
08-19-2005, 06:18 PM
I support FF's; my neighbor is an Engineer. However, if all of the above is true, how come every time a position comes open, there are 500-1000 applicants. The last time I applied for a position in the PUBLIC sector (paid about $75k/yr), there wer about 12 other people applying? Must be something good there.
We are not saying it is not a good job.I love being a firefighter,but after 16 years I hate what it's done to my body. We are getting less and less applicants everytime we test.500-1000 is a very low turn out. The less applicants that apply means the less qualified people we will be able to hire.

cdog
08-19-2005, 06:28 PM
My grandfather lasted 5 years after he retired from the LA FD. This was back in 1984.

little rowe boat
08-19-2005, 06:29 PM
1 weeek ago yesterday a retired capt. from the RFD passed away. He retired 8 yrs. ago.

cdog
08-19-2005, 06:35 PM
I feel the Firemen deserve every penny they get. I was a explorer when I was a kid. Some how life took me in a differant direction. Does anyone know a Mr. Roundtree? He was the capt. of the Colton fire dept. He also taught at crafton. He retired early in 1996 or so. My comments here today are my opinion on why we are all having to accept less because of all the freebees some people get.

Family4Day
08-19-2005, 08:59 PM
JB in So Cal-In response to your question-yes there is something great here. Like Little Rowe Boat said, it takes it's wear and tear on your body. He's got 16 years, I'm abit behind with 10 years on. Aches and pains, but developing a condition that not only affects you, but the wife and kids at home is what scares me.
Applicants are down for our agency from what I see when we The larger agencies are the ones with thousands of applicants. I believe Los Angeles County had close to 17 thousand apply during their last testing period. Thats for probably 500 jobs in the next 3-4 years. I had mentioned before, being a firefighter is a great job. The pay is good, the job is challenging and rewarding, but I believe the glamour that once was has faded somewhat. We are paid for being an insurance policy. That policy goes into affect everytime that 911 is called. If there were no emergencies, we would all be volunteer firefighters running when the town fire bell went off. The fire service has evolved to handle emergencies that run the extreme. Ask any firefighter if 30 years ago, Paramedics were a word in their vocabulary. That is a word that is know used in conjunction with the word Firefighter. We have continued to evolve and expand our job to handle emergencies of all sorts. If the public thinks we do not do enough to deserve our salaries and benefits, I wish they knew what we did day in and out. Training, prevention inspections, running calls, public education. Handling a full arrest or a structure fire is our job and we excel at it. But running those multiple times each shift(maybe not fires every shift)and handling each one with the same skill to complete the incident is a great thing. We do not have the luxury of calling a time out, or deleting the incident and starting over. We have worked to become an all inclusive insurance policy that protects our citizens. We just want to keep what we have and not have the governor threaten our futures.
JB in So Cal- sorry to point you out in my opening. Like I said-it is great being a firefighter.IN MY OPINION, the good benefits outway the bad. My wife my disagree seeing that I have worked Christmas and the 4 th of July the last 4 years. I was going to be a supermodel, but that mirror keeps breaking everytime I look at it and Hugh Hefner isn't looking for a playmate inspector, so I think I'll stick with firefighter!
Sorry for the long post-hand to end it with a little humor!
Todd

4day!!
08-19-2005, 09:04 PM
Well said F4D. Phebus where are you?

haulina29
08-19-2005, 09:08 PM
Little rowe boat the fire dept doesnt and hasnt always hired the most qualifed for years and a million is wrong . :sleeping:

Havasu_Dreamin
08-19-2005, 09:09 PM
Here's one for you. A firefighter was killed last week when his fire engine crashed on the 10 freeway in Beaumont. That ass told the department to tell his family, sorry we dont have the money right now for a department funeral. Our local union stepped up and payed the million dollar price tag so he could have the funeral he deserved. Gov promised to pay to pay them back at a later date
Not to degrade the grave of a brave fireman, but a million dollar funeral? Where can I find information that this did happen, as in a news source?

4day!!
08-19-2005, 09:11 PM
Little rowe boat the fire dept doesnt and hasnt always hired the most qualifed for years and a million is wrong . :sleeping:
I believe as stated earlier that the million came from their union. Which is funded by the firefighters through union dues... As far as the most qualified?
Well, you have a point there, sometimes...

Havasu_Dreamin
08-19-2005, 09:12 PM
If you didn't write it, quote your source.
Exactly! All of this is a good read, and very informative, but as I said before, unless it is from some independent source, I as a voter will discount it if it comes from either side of the debate due to questioning the motives of the author whether it be from the union or politicians.
Edit: Keep in mind, I for one feel that I need to filter what not only the politicians say but also the proposition proponents and opponents due to the ever screwed up political scene we have here. In other words, I need to do my due dilignece before deciding to vote one way or the other without giving in to the rhetoric from both sides of any issue.

phebus
08-19-2005, 09:20 PM
Well said F4D. Phebus where are you?
I'm just sitting here watching this thread evolve. I try not to mix politics or religion with my boating.
I will say though, as a firefighter/paramedic for 24 years now, I have had a knee surgery, a shoulder surgery, three back surgeries, and I'm awaiting my fourth back surgery which will be a three level fusion, which will retire me out.
Wouldn't trade it for the world. No I'm not rich, no the retirement won't take care of me for life (I will have to find something else to do), and yes it has taken a toll on my family.

Family4Day
08-19-2005, 09:22 PM
I do not think that a firefighter funeral would or should come close to a million dollars. Someone mentioned costs of engine destroyed, stress debriefing, etc. Those costs are/or should be handled from within the agency that had the incident. Other costs such as flying in a family, etc. should be covered. Many times our unions and associations provide assiatnce in tose areas. I think that Riverside County is covered by CDF/California Department of Fire & Forestry. That is a state agency so maybe those figures of a million dollars being added that way. I have been to a few firefighter funerals(unfortunately) in my time. Members come from all over because we are a brotherhood. If 2500 personnel attended, that is great. But a majority were there on their own time. If they were sent, maybe one or two member from a department attend. Our costs are paid from our union account, no city monies are spent for those trips.
I can't say for 100 percent, but I do not think all the deatils regarding the million dollar cost are there. If I get any breakdown, I would be glad to let anyone know.
Todd

Family4Day
08-19-2005, 09:29 PM
No we do not always hire the best! But the testing process is designed to get the most qualified for the position. Paramedic, Fire Tech Degree, Fire Academy, etc. We still get some qualified ones that are knuckle heads and you hope that the other applicant you interviewed and did not hire gets a position somewhere. This is the most I have ever posted, but thanks for letting me air my feelings out. Everyone will make their own decisions based on what they see, here, read or just have a gut feeling about. Hopefully all of our decision no matter what they be are right for us and the ones we love.
Todd
Phebus-good luck with your back surgery-if you need anything-let me know.

Jrocket
08-19-2005, 09:53 PM
When I grow up I want to be like Jrocket!!!
You'll need a bigger pecker and work less.
Now go wax your Harley!

little rowe boat
08-20-2005, 06:30 AM
Little rowe boat the fire dept doesnt and hasnt always hired the most qualifed for years and a million is wrong . :sleeping:
We try to get the best and most qualified and believe me it does not always work out that way. My point was that we will have even less to choose from.

Havasu_Dreamin
08-20-2005, 06:37 AM
Little rowe boat the fire dept doesnt and hasnt always hired the most qualifed for years and a million is wrong . :sleeping:
The same can be said for any business and any department of the government. My own opinion is that the fire departments most likely hire better people than say the DMV. Remember, it takes a certain mentality to run into a burning building when your natural instinct is to run.

JB in so cal
08-20-2005, 09:02 AM
JB in So Cal-In response to your question-yes there is something great here. Like Little Rowe Boat said, it takes it's wear and tear on your body. He's got 16 years, I'm abit behind with 10 years on. Aches and pains, but developing a condition that not only affects you, but the wife and kids at home is what scares me.
Applicants are down for our agency from what I see when we The larger agencies are the ones with thousands of applicants. I believe Los Angeles County had close to 17 thousand apply during their last testing period. Thats for probably 500 jobs in the next 3-4 years. I had mentioned before, being a firefighter is a great job. The pay is good, the job is challenging and rewarding, but I believe the glamour that once was has faded somewhat. We are paid for being an insurance policy. That policy goes into affect everytime that 911 is called. If there were no emergencies, we would all be volunteer firefighters running when the town fire bell went off. The fire service has evolved to handle emergencies that run the extreme. Ask any firefighter if 30 years ago, Paramedics were a word in their vocabulary. That is a word that is know used in conjunction with the word Firefighter. We have continued to evolve and expand our job to handle emergencies of all sorts. If the public thinks we do not do enough to deserve our salaries and benefits, I wish they knew what we did day in and out. Training, prevention inspections, running calls, public education. Handling a full arrest or a structure fire is our job and we excel at it. But running those multiple times each shift(maybe not fires every shift)and handling each one with the same skill to complete the incident is a great thing. We do not have the luxury of calling a time out, or deleting the incident and starting over. We have worked to become an all inclusive insurance policy that protects our citizens. We just want to keep what we have and not have the governor threaten our futures.
JB in So Cal- sorry to point you out in my opening. Like I said-it is great being a firefighter.IN MY OPINION, the good benefits outway the bad. My wife my disagree seeing that I have worked Christmas and the 4 th of July the last 4 years. I was going to be a supermodel, but that mirror keeps breaking everytime I look at it and Hugh Hefner isn't looking for a playmate inspector, so I think I'll stick with firefighter!
Sorry for the long post-hand to end it with a little humor!
Todd
Nice respsonse. Like I said, there has got to be something at the end of the rainbow for all of those folks to apply for so few positions.
This thread got my attention because ANY time public servants go public with dissatisfaction, there is ALWAYS more to the story than what is up front.
Like a layer of an onion.