PDA

View Full Version : Hybrid better? Think again..



riverracerx
08-19-2005, 10:06 AM
A friend forwarded this to me. Certainly true when you see how much the hybrids are, and that dealers don't discount them. Especially now, due to soaring gas prices:
I've been comparing a Honda Civic HX and Toyota Prius.
According to Edmunds.com the invoice prices for those 2 vehicles are:
$19,314 for the Toyota Prius
$12,764 for the Honda Civic HX
$6,550 price difference
According to the website above, these are the average MPG's for those vehicles.
56 mpg for the Toyota Prius
39 mpg for the Honda Civic HX
I average about 15,000 miles per year on my vehicles. Right now the price of gas near my apartment in Seattle is about $2.60 a gallon. With those figures, the website says that in a year I will spend on gas:
$994.70 in the Honda Civic HX
$701.62 in the Toyota Prius
That is a savings of $293.08 per year.
With that savings it appears that it would take approximately 22 years or 335,000 miles before I would recoup the initial costs of purchasing a hybrid over a conventional vehicle!
So if you're looking to buy a hybrid to save money on gas you might be in for a real shock on how little the savings really are. Try out that website for yourself and see.
By the way, what IÂ’ve stated above doesnÂ’t even factor in other costs such as higher insurance and maintenance. The hybrids do have two engines, which could increase maintenance costs. CV transmissions canÂ’t be cheap to work on. Plus, there is some speculation that the battery packs are only good for 100,000 miles and range in price from $3,000 to $7,500 to replace depending on the vehicle. Could you imagine having to buy a new engine for your car every 100,000 miles? Sure, the auto manufacturers say the battery packs are good for the life of the vehicle. If that were true however, why wouldnÂ’t they guarantee them for that long instead of the standard 8-year warranty? The battery issue could also hurt the resale value of the vehicles.

Kilrtoy
08-19-2005, 10:08 AM
WOW intertesting

Vada
08-19-2005, 10:09 AM
interesting.....I plan on waiting until they go down in price anyway

lucky
08-19-2005, 10:16 AM
Not Only That - But What Would The Epa Say In The Event Of An Accident Along With The Saftey Factor Of You Safty Should You Get In An Accident In One ???
One Of My Trucks Rolled Over And We Spilled Oil( 4 Gallons ) Well - Cal Trans Called Haz Mat - At A Cost Of 8 Grand To Come Clean It Up !! Baterry Acid -- $$$$$

Racer277
08-19-2005, 10:22 AM
One Of My Trucks Rolled Over And We Spilled Oil( 4 Gallons ) Well - Cal Trans Called Haz Mat - At A Cost Of 8 Grand To Come Clean It Up !!
They called Haz Mat to clean the oil spilled on the asphalt.... :hammerhea
Gawd...

dropt98chevy
08-19-2005, 10:25 AM
I will stick with my 28mpg(street) and 35mpg(highway) and get more looks than a Honduh or Yota and its a truck.

JB in so cal
08-19-2005, 10:26 AM
A friend forwarded this to me. Certainly true when you see how much the hybrids are, and that dealers don't discount them. Especially now, due to soaring gas prices:
It's the same argument for buying a new Diesel truck. Are you REALLY going to recover the expense ($5k to $6k) going to an oil burner. My (paid for) v-10 gets 15-16 not towing - I only tow about 50 miles a weekend - a diesel gets, what 17-19 and it's much more than gas.

lucky
08-19-2005, 10:27 AM
They called Haz Mat to clean the oil spilled on the asphalt.... :hammerhea
Gawd...
NO DIRT

cdog
08-19-2005, 10:40 AM
I will stick with my 28mpg(street) and 35mpg(highway) and get more looks than a Honduh or Yota and its a truck.
Your worried about looks????

dropt98chevy
08-19-2005, 10:53 AM
Your worried about looks????
When it gets to considering a Honda or Toyota...Of Course! lol

riverracerx
08-19-2005, 10:56 AM
SWBob, I believe the only cars allowed in the carpool lane with only one person are the battery only cars, like the Honda Insight, not the Hybrid gas/electric vehicles. But I have been known to be wrong. ;)
I think the email is just to show that if you are looking for a vehicle that gets good (better) gas mileage these days the hybrids are not necessarily the best bet.

dropt98chevy
08-19-2005, 10:59 AM
I think the email is just to show that if you are looking for a vehicle that gets good (better) gas mileage these days the hybrids are not necessarily the best bet.
You can get a Honda to run 13's and still get 30+ to the gallon.

cdog
08-19-2005, 11:03 AM
It's strange how GM gets so much bad press about gas mileage when they have cars that get better miliage than the jap. comp. They just need to have better looking cars that last a long time. The 70's and 80's killed the american cars. My first full size chevy truck was a 92, 1500 4x4 with a 350 and it had 317k miles on the OG engine when I sold it. Driving to AZ at 85mph i'd still get 17-20 mph. Not bad. I think we should put more stock in alt fuel, as in Bio fuel and methonol, the combustion engine will be around a long time. They just need to make a sythetic or veggie oil that will work. It boggles me how we can send people to outer space but we're stuck with fuel made from dead dinosours. 1901 tech. I think that 's why oil is so high right now. They're giving their buddies a chance to cash out before they introduce the new/cheaper fuels that take the control away from the oil co's. Let's hope that's the case.

Jbb
08-19-2005, 11:05 AM
Im driving a Prius this week pretty cool little car...lots of gadgets...

RP1
08-19-2005, 11:07 AM
Third, hybrid vehicles are allowed to use the HOV lanes in CA, even with one person. .
Best reason of all, unless of course you have the luxry of Klrtoy and myself :D

AZKC
08-19-2005, 11:10 AM
Your worried about looks????
Arn't 80% - 90% of the members of this forum :notam: :D

RP1
08-19-2005, 11:10 AM
[QUOTE=riverracerx]SWBob, I believe the only cars allowed in the carpool lane with only one person are the battery only cars, like the Honda Insight, not the Hybrid gas/electric vehicles. But I have been known to be wrong. ;)
You are correct, however it is on the books for law in 2006 I believe.

riverracerx
08-19-2005, 11:22 AM
To be actual law, or to be voted on?
That will raise the price of hybrids for sure.

totenhosen
08-19-2005, 11:24 AM
The people that buy these cars don't merely do it because they think they are saving money but for the environment. Thats what my friend said that has one.

RP1
08-19-2005, 11:25 AM
To be actual law, or to be voted on?
That will raise the price of hybrids for sure.
I thought it was actual law and had already been voted in Congress this year. Don't quote me on that though, it's one of those things I paid half-ass attention to, so I'm not positive.

Sleek-Jet
08-19-2005, 11:26 AM
The people that buy these cars don't merely do it because they think they are saving money but for the environment. Thats what my friend said that has one.
But to get them accepted by the mass car buying public they have to be thought of as something other than a hippy-mobile. If there is that much price difference, we won't be seeing a whole lot of these things running around.

riverracerx
08-19-2005, 11:30 AM
If they are better for the environment where do they put the batteries after an accident or when the car is scapped at the end of it's life? Those can't be good burried in the ground?? :confused:

JB in so cal
08-19-2005, 11:32 AM
If they are better for the environment where do they put the batteries after an accident or when the car is scapped at the end of it's life? Those can't be good burried in the ground?? :confused:
The one thing you can use when speaking with a hippie - electric car driver is just aske them a version of that very thing.
Better yet. For pure battery cars, ask them how the power for the recharge was generated?????

totenhosen
08-19-2005, 11:39 AM
If they are better for the environment where do they put the batteries after an accident or when the car is scapped at the end of it's life? Those can't be good burried in the ground?? :confused:
He says it's a compromise he is willing to take. Not sure what they do with the battery at the end of its life.
I wish VW was able to sell it's 130hp diesels here in the US. That thing has got so much torque, great gas mileage, no black smoke and actually moves quite well.

PHOTOGLOU
08-19-2005, 11:41 AM
SWBob, I believe the only cars allowed in the carpool lane with only one person are the battery only cars, like the Honda Insight, not the Hybrid gas/electric vehicles. But I have been known to be wrong. ;)
I think the email is just to show that if you are looking for a vehicle that gets good (better) gas mileage these days the hybrids are not necessarily the best bet.
Any HYBRID that gets over 30 MPG is allowed in the car pool lane after YOU the consumer proves it to DMV, so that DMV can give you a sticker on the bumper of the car saying OK carpool lane.... i.e. a window sticker

Sleek-Jet
08-19-2005, 11:50 AM
The one thing you can use when speaking with a hippie - electric car driver is just aske them a version of that very thing.
Better yet. For pure battery cars, ask them how the power for the recharge was generated?????
duhhhhhhh... it comes out of the outlet.... :D

advantage21
08-19-2005, 11:57 AM
THE CIVIC YOU MENTION IN THE FIRST POST IS NOT A HYBRID. THE HX IS A REGULAR CIVIC NOW THE HYBRID CIVIC ON THE OTHER HAND IS CLOSER TO 20THOUSAND AND I THINK GETS A BETTER GAS MILEAGE THAN THE OTHER CIVIC. iF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN BUYING ONE PM ME I WORK FOR A HONDA DEALERSHIP AND MIGHT BE ABLE TO GET YOU A BETTER DEAL.

mxbundy
08-19-2005, 12:00 PM
This is the same type of math you have to do with getting a diesel truck.
How much are you going to use it against the 6 to 7 grand extra they cost.And now the premium on the fuel itself.
I use mine to pull my boat (overkill) and by 5th wheel toybox (mandatory).
But I resisted the urge to buy one until I got the trailer.
bundy

Sleek-Jet
08-19-2005, 12:02 PM
THE CIVIC YOU MENTION IN THE FIRST POST IS NOT A HYBRID.
Easy turbo... I think that was the point. :chi:
And remember, all caps = Yelling....

riverracerx
08-19-2005, 12:17 PM
Yes, the point of the first post was the cheaper Honda (non-hybrid) vs. the Toyota (hybrid) cost difference. And the worth of going hybrid.
Besides, every time I go to the gas station I never see an electrical plug anywhere. How are you going to fill the thing up?

jtmarten
09-13-2005, 07:09 PM
I will stick with my 28mpg(street) and 35mpg(highway) and get more looks than a Honduh or Yota and its a truck.
Won't get more looks than this, and I use ZERO gas! :yuk: :D :D
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/1692BRADLEY2.JPG
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/1692BRADLEY1.JPG

jtmarten
09-13-2005, 07:13 PM
Besides, every time I go to the gas station I never see an electrical plug anywhere. How are you going to fill the thing up?
Plans are out there for rapid-charge stations, but the battery technology has to move forward to batteries that'll take a charge that fast. I've read some of the new Lithium polymer batteries are getting close.

Sane Asylum
09-13-2005, 07:17 PM
A friend forwarded this to me. Certainly true when you see how much the hybrids are, and that dealers don't discount them. Especially now, due to soaring gas prices:
Excellent post.....!!! It's phenomenol that some buyers go into a transaction with poor thinking and no data....I did the same math with my wife's 01 Burban and a diesel Jetta. Payback based on $3.00/gal was 12 years (given what I would've with the Burban as a trade)...

Wonderboy
09-13-2005, 07:30 PM
If they are better for the environment where do they put the batteries after an accident or when the car is scapped at the end of it's life? Those can't be good burried in the ground?? :confused:
Batteries are recycled. The lead, plastic and acid is all recycleable. And then all new batteries are made from the recycled material.

Oldsquirt
09-13-2005, 07:52 PM
Besides, every time I go to the gas station I never see an electrical plug anywhere. How are you going to fill the thing up?
A hybrid never needs to be charged from an external source. That's part of the concept of "Hybrid". Its gas and electric working as a team with the gas engine capable of driving the vehicle as well as generating power to recharge the battery. The gas engine and the electric traction motor can both work together to motivate the car or the electric motor can do it alone. It's all controlled by computers just like a gas-powered car.
Just a few quick notes about some of what that letter said.
The engine is a conventional gasoline 4 cylinder. Nothing fancy. Considering it doesn't run all the time it should wear out SLOWER than a conventional gas engined car.
The Toyota Prius transaxle is far less likely to need repair than any other transmission/transaxle currently in use. It has just one planetary gearset and a lubrication pump as well as the 2 electric motors. There are NO hydraulic circuits, solenoids, valve body or any of the other items common in an automatic trans. Pure simplicity and a very innovative use of a planetary gearset to achieve a "continuosly variable" trans. The only service it ever needs is a change of the lubricating fluid. I believe that interval is 60k miles.
The nickel metal hydride batteries, in total, contain about as much electrolite as 2 conventional batteries. The entire battery is smaller than a full size suitcase and is comprised of a number of six-cell "modules"(7.2volts each) that are linked together in series and housed inside a steel case. The number of "modules" has been reduced from the 38 of the 1st generation Prius to 28 in the current car. They are currently warranted for 8 years and 100,000 miles. We have already seen some with in excess of 150,000 miles still in service with no issues. Toyota also has a "bounty" out for any batteries that have been replaced. They pay $250 and shipping charges. UPS is all set up to handle them.
There is no alternator or starter motor so you will never need to replace them. The power steering is electric-assist instead of hydraulic. This means no pump, no hoses, no fluid, no rack end seals to leak......The current Hybrids also have an electric A/C compressor. That eliminated the last drive belt and also means that the engine no longer needs to run to provide A/C(like at an idle in stop and go traffic). Because a good deal of the braking is "regenerative", meaning the electric motor is operated as a generator to charge the battery, thus slowing the car, the brakes wear very slowly. That 150k vehicle mentioned above still had more than 70% life left on its original front pads. A conventional car would likely have been through at least 3 sets of front pads and 1 rear in that mileage.
There really are a lot of advantages and not a whole lot of disadvantages in the Hybrid. The new Highlander Hybrid is even better and it is truly difficult to believe the performance of that vehicle compared to the non-Hybrid version.
A final note. The whole Hybrid concept was conceived more as a means to a near-pollution free vehicle more than it was a high mileage vehicle. This is probably why people dont understand why the mileage numbers aren't higher. Mileage was a secondary goal, low emissions was the primary.

MBlaster
09-13-2005, 07:54 PM
The 06 Honda civic hybrid should be at dealers now or real soon.
New body style and more power, 50mpg.
20K

My Man's Sportin' Wood
09-13-2005, 08:19 PM
I did the math for me and figured I would save $1710 a year with the Prius. That is with 25K miles a year and gas at $3 a gallon. I haven't seen it at $2.60 in months. Currently my Camaro gets 25 mpg and I use roughly 1000 gallons a year, @ $3/gal that is $3000. If I had a prius, I would only spend $1290. Still not worth the price difference, but if you care more about the environment than your pocketbook, then I guess you might be willing to fork over the dough. :notam:
Just thought I would offer some more realistic numbers, and my .02, as usual :D

jtmarten
09-13-2005, 09:06 PM
I did the math for me and figured I would save $1710 a year with the Prius. That is with 25K miles a year and gas at $3 a gallon. I haven't seen it at $2.60 in months. Currently my Camaro gets 25 mpg and I use roughly 1000 gallons a year, @ $3/gal that is $3000. If I had a prius, I would only spend $1290. Still not worth the price difference, but if you care more about the environment than your pocketbook, then I guess you might be willing to fork over the dough. :notam:
Just thought I would offer some more realistic numbers, and my .02, as usual :D
Maybe not worth the price difference at $3/gal, but what about $4, $5, $6+/gal? Maybe the savings in gasoline will cover the 50-70% increase in natural gas thats coming.
It all comes down to how you use it if it will be worth it. I usually put on 40K miles a year so it'll be a huge savings for me. But, my car is a true electric, not a hybrid. I agree the hybrids aren't worth it to save money on gas. A few years ago I had a Geo Metro, got 48mpg, and I had less than $1k in it. Ran great for me for 3 years. Only sold it because my kids were getting older and bigger and having trouble getting in and out of the back seat. Sold it and bought an Escort SW that gets 40-41mpg using 3oz/10gal acetone, 37mpg without. Buying a hybrid for $20+k, instead of the Escort, for the additional 7mpg would have taken more than a lifetime to break even. I figure my 'new' electric will get me to the break-even point in about 4 years, which I can live with (faster if gas prices do keep going up).

BiggusJimbus
09-13-2005, 09:11 PM
resale value
Changes the equation significantly. Both with Hybrids and Diesel trucks.
Straight cost/mile calcultions do not paint an accurate picture.

257
09-13-2005, 09:12 PM
If you have someone you can trust in the dealership service dept
ask them about all the electrical warning lights that are coming
on, and resale valve would you buy a used hybird???

Tom Brown
09-13-2005, 09:15 PM
Batteries are recycled. The lead, plastic and acid is all recycleable. And then all new batteries are made from the recycled material.
When I was a kid, I made a bridge using wood glue and some old popsicle sticks.

jtmarten
09-13-2005, 09:24 PM
Originally Posted by Wonderboy
Batteries are recycled. The lead, plastic and acid is all recycleable. And then all new batteries are made from the recycled material.
When I was a kid, I made a bridge using wood glue and some old popsicle sticks.
Now just hold on there...Be very careful, you might put your eye out with one of those popsicle sticks. Lead and H2SO4 are much safer to recycle with! :D :D

My Man's Sportin' Wood
09-14-2005, 05:40 AM
resale value
Changes the equation significantly. Both with Hybrids and Diesel trucks.
Straight cost/mile calcultions do not paint an accurate picture.
If someone buys a car for resale value, they are not very bright, IMO. Cars are not an investment in any way, unless they are classics. Once in a blue moon, you will get lucky, like with the mid-90s Impala.

MagicMtnDan
09-14-2005, 05:54 AM
There are many hybrid vehicles available. Lots of people don't realize that some of the hybrids don't really offer any better mileage - they're offering more power (some Toyota and Lexus models offer the power of a V-8 in a 6-cylinder engine with hybrid technology).
There are only 3 hybrids that are allowed to be driven in the HOV lanes when there's only the driver inside:
1. Civic Hybrid
2. Honda Insight
3. Toyota Prius
Click here for more infoClick here for more info (http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/carpool/carpool.htm)

rivercrazy
09-14-2005, 08:15 AM
Yup. The Prius is approved by Cal for HOV lanes. You just have to apply for a sticker from the DMV. To qualify, the vehicle has to meet the ultra low emissions standards and get over a certain MPG.
And I believe the tax credit for purchasing a qualifying Hybrid is about $2,000

desertbird
09-14-2005, 09:23 AM
I dunno much, but I will say that here in the SCV you'll see a LOT of the Toyota's. Maybe so much as one in 50 cruising down Soledad lateley!

superdave013
09-14-2005, 09:33 AM
I take it a person buys something like this to zip around town / to and from work. Not towing or anything like that.
With that said I owned 2 different Geo Metros that I used for that very same thing. First one cost under 8K and got 49MPG with me driving it. I pretty much would floor it and just change gears. lol
The second one I bought brand new for just a tad over 8K. I was getting 51MPG with that one.
So to me 53MPG is not that impressive for those hybrids.

uvindex
09-14-2005, 09:43 AM
If someone buys a car for resale value, they are not very bright, IMO. Cars are not an investment in any way, unless they are classics.Resale value is a factor that SHOULD be considered when purchasing a car (unless you're buying a car for emotional reasons, which is fine, as long as you recognize that.) Resale value, in this case, is recognizing that the car depreciates, it doesn't imply that the car is going to somehow magically appreciate. When you sell your car after four years or whatever, the difference between what you paid for it and what you sold it for is a big factor in the total cost of ownership of the car (and it helps explain why buying a cheap car with a crappy resale value can be more expensive overall than buying a more expensive car with a good resale value). :)
Bottom line: if you're interested in knowing the total cost of ownership of a car, you consider purchase price, fuel mileage, maintenance, insurance, and depreciation (aka resale value). Granted, sometimes people want a particular car for other reasons, and resale value doesn't affect their decision -- that's fine, but anyone price-comparing two vehicles should definitely consider resale value in the equation.

Sleek-Jet
09-14-2005, 09:49 AM
Maybe not worth the price difference at $3/gal, but what about $4, $5, $6+/gal? Maybe the savings in gasoline will cover the 50-70% increase in natural gas thats coming.
It all comes down to how you use it if it will be worth it. I usually put on 40K miles a year so it'll be a huge savings for me. But, my car is a true electric, not a hybrid. I agree the hybrids aren't worth it to save money on gas. A few years ago I had a Geo Metro, got 48mpg, and I had less than $1k in it. Ran great for me for 3 years. Only sold it because my kids were getting older and bigger and having trouble getting in and out of the back seat. Sold it and bought an Escort SW that gets 40-41mpg using 3oz/10gal acetone, 37mpg without. Buying a hybrid for $20+k, instead of the Escort, for the additional 7mpg would have taken more than a lifetime to break even. I figure my 'new' electric will get me to the break-even point in about 4 years, which I can live with (faster if gas prices do keep going up).
How much do you pay per kWH???? And how many kWH does it take to fully recharge the battery???

spectras only
09-14-2005, 10:23 AM
Im driving a Prius this week pretty cool little car...lots of gadgets...
Take the engine out and transplant it into your Cobra :wink: .You would still look cool :D

BiggusJimbus
09-14-2005, 05:26 PM
If someone buys a car for resale value, they are not very bright, IMO. Cars are not an investment in any way, unless they are classics. Once in a blue moon, you will get lucky, like with the mid-90s Impala.
I didn't say you buy a car for resale value. But it is a relevant factor to the cost of ownership and operation of a vehicle. Which is relevant to the topic being discussed.
If you don't consider it, you get bogus results. That's all I'm saying.
Just because a cars initial cost is higher, does not mean it is ultimately more expensive.
Hybrids and diesel trucks are not an investment.

jtmarten
09-14-2005, 08:36 PM
How much do you pay per kWH???? And how many kWH does it take to fully recharge the battery???
The charge time is around 8hrs. Prior to charging the car, my electric runs about $3/day, and I'm expecting that to go up only 50 cents a day. Gas costs me $6 per round trip to town. I make 6-7 trips into town each week, which averages $156/month in gas (at $3/gal) vs. $15.50 in electricity. Plus, no money spent on oil and filters, tune up supplies, emission tests, etc.

jtmarten
09-14-2005, 08:43 PM
Yup. The Prius is approved by Cal for HOV lanes. You just have to apply for a sticker from the DMV. To qualify, the vehicle has to meet the ultra low emissions standards and get over a certain MPG.
And I believe the tax credit for purchasing a qualifying Hybrid is about $2,000
The only bad thing is the car must be purchased brand new. Here's a link for info:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/tax_afv.shtml

bigq
09-14-2005, 10:16 PM
The only bad thing is the car must be purchased brand new. Here's a link for info:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/tax_afv.shtml
That says a lot right there doesn't it.
:rolleyes:
I would rather stick to changing the type of fuel (renewable fuel)we use in the combustion engines.

Sherpa
09-15-2005, 05:28 AM
the tax incentive/credit thing is for original buyer only, and it's 2k for 1 time
only.
the toyota prius' around the bay area are selling for around 30 from what I
hear....
the fed ratings for mileage on the Honda Accord hybrid state 38mpg. so this
should fit into the HOV/commuter lane guidelines. although most independant
automotive testing sources indicate the accord only gets around 29 mpg.
We had a VW deisel pickup back in the day... little thing had 58 screamin HP,
4 speed, no A/C, and barely enough power to get out of it's own way. but,
it did get around 45mpg running it normally, and babied, it'd nearly get 50.
this truck had over 200k on it, and all original brakes. (little weight to stop=
long brake life)..........
--We seriously need european-tech inspired cars over here. I mean, go to
europe, and 80% of the cars are TDI.............. gas in France was 1.25/litre.
that's about 4 bucks a gal. don't remember what their deisel cost.
--Sherpa

Sleek-Jet
09-15-2005, 06:09 AM
The charge time is around 8hrs. Prior to charging the car, my electric runs about $3/day, and I'm expecting that to go up only 50 cents a day. Gas costs me $6 per round trip to town. I make 6-7 trips into town each week, which averages $156/month in gas (at $3/gal) vs. $15.50 in electricity. Plus, no money spent on oil and filters, tune up supplies, emission tests, etc.
That's good, but I think it will take more to charge those batteries the 6 or 7 kWH a day. That's a pretty efficiant power supply.
Another options would be to go solar for the battery recharge, I've known several people that have gone that route.