Gelcoat Splashing and IP Protection

[Froggystyle]

This thread is for all of those folks who are legitimately miffed over my participation in threads about other manufacturers, and my comments with regard to splashed gelcoat.
For those not aware... "splashing" is a term that basically legitimizes to a degree the theft of other peoples designs. Be it a bottom, gelcoat or feature. The industry uses this term because stealing sounds too bad. Jokes have been made about it, and allegations have been thrown around regarding who splashed who, but the fact is the entire industry was basically founded on the notion.
If you are new here, I will give you a little background on me. When I first came on here, I was an active duty US Navy SEAL stationed in Coronado at SEAL Team One. I had been the unfortunate recipient of two very painful parachute crashes during night combat equipment jumps. During these accidents I wrecked my left foot and my left hand. Rehab has brought me back 80% or so. I was getting out of the Navy with a medical retirement and getting into music production (another creative based industry). Long story short, I bought an Ultra new and came on here to get with river people for trips and socializing.
For the next couple of years I was spending a lot of time in the management end of the boat business. I was suprised at the mis-management and undercapitalization that was going on in the industry, and felt that bringing solid business practices and innovation to it would pay off well. After a couple of false starts with other manufacturers, my investors and I decided to start our own company focusing on the hottest and least well developed segment of the industry, the deckboat market.
We would build one boat, and build it for the express purpose of being the best deckboat in the world. It would be specifically designed from keel up to suit this purpose, unlike the others that were in the industry that were universally an adaptation of a previously existing performance hull design.
One major drawback to this industry is the lack of apparent protection of your Intellectual Property, commonly called the "IP". Any innovation in this segment would put the generator of it at a clear advantage with so many offerings that were essentially similar, short of options and aesthetic. The problem is, that usually before your paint is dry on the plug, the concept can and has been reproduced on a competing manufacturer's boat. Obviously, with such a quick normalization of advantage, it doesn't pay very well to innovate. I doubt highly that Talon is getting paid for every Conquest or Eliminator that rolls off the line, though they all admittedly share the Talon bottom. This was an unacceptable problem for my investors.
If we were going to innovate, we had to protect our designs. One of the first investments we made into Trident, aside from our styling from Rob King and our bottom from Ron Holder was to protect our designs legally. "IP Protection" is a huge business practiced by all major corporations. The ability to protect good ideas is what brings companies like Guess, Oakley, Chevy, Nike, Asics etc... to the top. If you pay to innovate, you can keep others away from your ideas. That is why you don't "Just do it" with a Payless shoe source shoe. While imitations and fakes are prevalent, they are illegal and are prosectued all the time with amazing results.
We have patents in application and copyrights and trademarks awarded for our bottom, our drop down front ramp design, our particular brand of the walk around swimstep, the layout of the interior, the name, logo and slogan. Our graphics are protected under both copyright and trademark law, as they are not only proprietary, but contain our trademark of the stylized three pointed spear. (Any arguments with regard to the ownership can feel free to reference Nike, whos swoosh and name are in reference to the Greek god "Nike" who was the goddess of victory.)
Now, with regard to "splashing"... It is currently accepted grudgingly that if you have a cool gelcoat design, it will be splashed by damn near every builder, but you can rest assured that Commander, Sleekcraft/Magic and Shockwave will be fighting over who gets it first. Two boats that I have either designed 100% or played a heavy role in designing were my last Ultra, a closed deck 21XS and Darryl Robinson's 27 Shadow. Within a month of my 21XS hitting the magazine where it was featured there were a couple of splashes of it already, Shockwave being the most notable not only for it's blatent ripoff, but the astounding bad rendition of it. Fortunately, talent kept this design from being well ripped off because with 18 crossovers per side, it was too expensive for most to attempt. The second was Darryl's, which was nearly directly copied by Nordic, Eliminator, Cheetah, Commander etc... Same colors, same scheme. Darryl was fumed, as was I. That was about the time I started looking into protection.
A couple of rumours are running around out there regarding getting around IP law as well. The infamous 10% rule stands out. The imaginary 10% rule allegedly states that any design changed more than 10% is considered a new design. This is a complete falacy. There is no such rule anywhere in copyright law. There are only a few guidelines for change...
One is that in the case of artwork or trademark, a competing design cannot draw confusion in the eyes of a jury. So, lets say for example, I own a 27 foot Cat, an Ultra for example, and I was to put a proprietary, protected design on it. If another boat company copied that design, and put it on, oh... let's say a 27' Commander, or Cheetah or something and put the two next to each other in front of a jury and a non-boater is confused with regard to which is which. Copyright infringement. Little known fact on this though. If the design WASN'T protected, you could still write a cease and desist and win, they just couldn't use it again. If you are protected however, you can sue in the first instance for $150,000.
Without going too deeply into the specifics, as it doesn't serve my purpose to explain the ways around the laws, let's leave it at if you can show confusion between the designs, you can win the case.
Much more of our stuff is very creatively protected. Gauge bezels, design patents instead of utility patents, proportions and such will protect nearly everything innovative against infringement. We have gone very far out of our way to ensure that we have not infringed on anyone elses IP as well. We have done searches of our trademarked graphics, and to the best of our knowledge are absolutely the first.
I intend to protect my designs. I can either be blunt and do stupid threats of violence or vandalism, as has been leveled against my business before, or I can use the only legal way, which is the court system. I haven't dumped damn near $750,000 into innovation to have it wasted on the undeserving. I have drawn a clear distinction from a styling, performance, construction, safety, drive, interior and quality level with everything in the business. You are either going to love the Revolution or you won't. If you do, you won't find anything in the industry remotely like it. If you don't, your tastes will be well served.
We have deliberately put ourselves beside the industry as you know it and not in it. We are taking our time developing the boat so that our clients aren't F'ed when stuff that hasn't been well thought out doesn't work. We are testing our designs thoroughly and have since the beginning. Ask anyone on these forums who we have worked with if I have sent good stuff back to the drawing board time and again because it wasn't right. I have over $40,000 worth of gear upstairs that will not go into a Revolution because I don't believe in it, or it wasn't the right part for the job. Anyone want to buy a killer set of stainless Hi-Tec headers for a BBC? I have them. How about three different helm configurations only to settle on a hydraulic system for the jet?
Innovation is only rewarded if you get to capitalize on it. If you boaters are happy tooling around in 5500 plus pound deckboats, then I am sure that our 3800 pound boat fully equipped won't be that big a deal for you. If 0-60 times up near 18 seconds with 12 second time to planes are fine, then our 1.2 second time to plane and one-third the 0-60 time will be of little use to you.
You want to talk about what we have done? Come down and take a ride first. You want to speak from ignorance? Keep talking about how you would never buy a boat from someone threatening to sue over a copyright infringement.
The best case scenario for me is for nobody to steal gelcoat from anyone anymore. The most innovative and creative artists will have the best looking boats. They will in turn attract the most creative gelcoaters. The copycats will look dated while the innovators will look fresh... as it should be. Perhaps my education of the industry with regard to how much protection artists have will have an effect. Time will tell. All I know for sure is, I have made my point, because anytime the subject of splashing shows up, someone half-jokes that I would sue.
Will I piss off the industry the first time I sue someone for stealing my stuff? Sure. I don't have a problem with that. I additionally don't have a problem if people start having to own up to morality issues I see happenning in the industry such as funding the loan on boats before they are constructed (and insuring them as well BTW...) or trade-in fraud.
If anyone wants to come on this thread and bash me for being vocal in any thread about other manufacturers stealing... bring it on. I was a member here and vocal about splashing since WAY before I was a boat builder. I retain my right to have an opinion on here, and understand that it is a reflection of my company. That every post I make represents Trident is clear to me, which is why I choose my words more carefully now, and choose my battles even more so.
So, here is me donning my flameproof suit. Get after it ladies and gentlemen.

[riverbound]

I thnk what you are doing is great and is a good direction for the entire boating undustry to take. If had the money and need for a boat of your caliber I would be all over your product.
I wish you the best of luck...always have. Even thougt in the begining I thought it looked like a giant sea-doo boat. but I now think it is an awesome looking boat with only the best of the best in it.
Good luck :D

[Nord]

Is this a thread or a mission statement??? :wink: :)

[Froggystyle]

I thnk what you are doing is great and is a good direction for the entire boating undustry to take. If had the money and need for a boat of your caliber I would be all over your product.
I wish you the best of luck...always have. Even thougt in the begining I thought it looked like a giant sea-doo boat. but I now think it is an awesome looking boat with only the best of the best in it.
Good luck :D
Thanks. I can't wait to meet you soon and take a look at that killer boat and pad. I am pretty sure that if your house is the one I think it is... that is one of my favorites in Parker.

[Jordy]

RD Sux. :D
Nice post Wes. Still can't wait to see the finished product on the water. ;)

[Froggystyle]

Is this a thread or a mission statement??? :wink: :)
It is a little Jerry McGuireesque, isn't it.
Basically, I don't want to tear up the Howard thread any more than I need to, so everyone who wants a piece can come over here.

[ROZ]

It is a little Jerry McGuireesque, isn't it.
SHOW ME THE JUDGEMENT! :D

[Outnumbered]

Good luck in your mission. There are a lot of industries that could use this kind of shake up. Hopefully you will start a trend.

[riverbound]

Thanks. I can't wait to meet you soon and take a look at that killer boat and pad. I am pretty sure that if your house is the one I think it is... that is one of my favorites in Parker.
Let me know when you are gonna be out there..... I would love to take a ride.

[Her454]

Wes, I admire your tenacity and the honesty in your post. I also respect the fact that you are willing to pioneer the legal trail in the industry. I cant even imagine the frustration of seeing your hard work copied and sold. Good luck, and I hope your hard work pays off.
BTW, I cant wait to take a ride in a new Trident. ;)

[Jbb]

RD Sux. :D
Nice post Wes. Still can't wait to see the finished product on the water. ;)
RD SUX...... :mad: :D :D

[redi4fun]

Wes,
I have followed the Trident since it was a sketch on a piece of paper. I may not be able to ever afford one of your boats, but I would damn sure like to take a spin in one. The level of thought and attention to detail that went in to their design in IMHO is second to none. Those who took a risk and bought a boat before they were even make will no doubt be more than happy with their decision. Good luck and continued success.
PS,
Who wants to take bets that this tread will get out of control!!!!! :D
Mike

[Jordy]

BTW, I cant wait to take a ride in a new Trident. ;)
Guess he's heading to Nor-Cal to show case it and increase the odds of taking Her for a ride huh??? :D :D :D

[Havasu Hangin']

RD SUX...... :mad: :D :D
Who's RD? :idea:

[charlyox]

Right on brotha. Well stated.

[h2oski2fast]

I wish you luck in your endeavors!
But, lighten up Francis! :D :D :D

[Jbb]

Who's RD? :idea:
These days ...that is a legitimate question..... :D :mix:

[riverbound]

Who's RD? :idea:
I dunno...but I think he sux :D

[bordsmnj]

very well said. you got an A. still wanna see that thing in action. i think it would be great to see a company get slapped in the face over ripping off someones design. i've had it done to me on an individual level and it sucked big time the first time a saw an exact copy of my boat -changed 10%. from 100' they were the same. Good luck with it.

[Froggystyle]

Guess he's heading to Nor-Cal to show case it and increase the odds of taking Her for a ride huh??? :D :D :D
Just remember Jordy, I am from Sonoma originally, and boated damn near 10 times a year at New Hogan, Tulloch and Camanche....
Them's my old stompin grounds.
Thanks for all of the good words folks. We are shooting number three tomorrow and just popped #2. We are officially in production.
Those of you getting the updates, we will have a long-overdue one out here very soon.
Thanks for sticking in there from the beginning. You will not be disappointed.

[riverbound]

very well said. you got an A. still wanna see that thing in action. i think it would be great to see a company get slapped in the face over ripping off someones design. i've had it done to me on an individual level and it sucked big time the first time a saw an exact copy of my boat -changed 10%. from 100' they were the same. Good luck with it.
Hey!!! You did the same to me. Lok how close your boat is to mine :argue:
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/681River_229.jpg

[NOCTURNAL]

Doesn't the 10% rule apply to patent protection and not copyright protection?

[Jordy]

Just remember Jordy, I am from Sonoma originally, and boated damn near 10 times a year at New Hogan, Tulloch and Camanche....
That's definately witch country. Hell, I had to go to Berryessa to meet Her (and she almost didn't show up for Skunkapalooza). :D
Like I said, I'm looking forward to seeing it. Probably would have seen it already, but I just don't make it to So. Cal like I used to. ;)

[Cole Trickle]

Hey!!! You did the same to me. Lok how close your boat is to mine :argue:
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/681River_229.jpg
It's easily 15% different.
Not to mention he has a real motor and his steering wheel is on the correct side of the boat! :boxingguy ;)

[superdave013]

wes, I'm sure you are not the only boat builder who feels that way about splashing. I do think you just could be the first guy to do something about it though.

[bordsmnj]

Hey!!! You did the same to me. Lok how close your boat is to mine :argue:
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/681River_229.jpg
mines obviously a nicer shade of blue. mine also has less black and more chrome. 11%

[Boa1277]

Hey, I applaud your mission, hopefully I diddnt come off to hard on the other thread, which I will not mention, obviously I was ignorant when I commented on you not being very innovative, hats off to you and good luck with your Revolution, I am glad to see you start your own thread. It sure sounds like you are going to have a nice boat. I will enjoy seeing it one day. The performance alone is very cool. Maybe they will have shootout that way you can really prove your point, and boat.

[WaTchTheGelCoat]

I know of one boat, that in my personal opinion, was splashed off of your design.

[Mrs. Bordsmnj]

Hey!!! You did the same to me. Lok how close your boat is to mine :argue:
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/681River_229.jpg
Chase us down in our boat next time we are out and you can take it up with us if you catch up to us! :D Just kidding. I am just messing with you and have not forgotten how many times you have towed us in. :D luv you! :D

[riverbound]

Maybe they will have shootout that way you can really prove your point, and boat.
Yah Im pretty sure the manufacturers that spend big$$ adsvertising in HB would be open to a shootout :notam: It would definitely be interesting to see them compared, but I doubt many other builders would show up.

[riverbound]

I know of one boat, that in my personal opinion, was splashed off of your design.
I might be thinking of the same boat.... I remember when I first saw the gel, froggy's stuff came to mind :frown:

[Cole Trickle]

I know of one boat, that in my personal opinion, was splashed off of your design.
Trouble Trouble we got Trouble.........
I commend what Wes is doing and think he is building an amazing boat!
Now if you could package it for about 60K cheaper I would buy one :2purples: :hammerhea :frown:
<-------- Owns a splashed sleek

[riverbound]

Chase us down in our boat next time we are out and you can take it up with us if you catch up to us! :D Just kidding. I am just messing with you and have not forgotten how many times you have towed us in. :D luv you! :D
That's not saying much... I can just wait until you guys break (again) then its easy to catch you :D

[riverbound]

Trouble Trouble we got Trouble.........
I commend what Wes is doing and think he is building an amazing boat!
Now if you could package it for about 60K cheaper I would buy one :2purples: :hammerhea :frown:
<-------- Owns a splashed sleek
Come on baller...go for it. Its only $60k just do it...the come pick me up at my dock :smile:

[Cole Trickle]

Come on baller...go for it. Its only $60k just do it...the come pick me up at my dock :smile:
Baller on a budget!!
As long as my boat floats,sounds good,looks good I am ok with the 80K price tag.I love the high priced stuff but I could never own a 150-200K boat.
Gotta diversify your bonds partner.
Pick you up this weekend if your home!! :wink:

[Mrs. Bordsmnj]

How much is the Trident going for?? just curious? :idea:

[Froggystyle]

Doesn't the 10% rule apply to patent protection and not copyright protection?
Let there be no mistake. There is NO rule in all of IP protection land that states anything about 10%. That is imaginary. No code, no guideline etc...
This was a concept designed in my opinion by people looking for a guideline for copying and getting away with it. When someone uses it in a court, it is nearly the last nail in the coffin in their defense case. It shows a near complete lack of understanding of the laws and regulations.

[riverbound]

Baller on a budget!!
As long as my boat floats,sounds good,looks good I am ok with the 80K price tag.I love the high priced stuff but I could never own a 150-200K boat.
Gotta diversify your bonds partner.
Pick you up this weekend if your home!! :wink:
Wont be there this weekend...Mom will be there with her friends (girl's weekend) :yuk:

[carreraelite]

his steering wheel is on the correct side of the boat! :boxingguy ;)
Only if you boat in England......

[Froggystyle]

How much is the Trident going for?? just curious? :idea:
$169,900 at the dealer, completely loaded. There are no options, it is just slammed.

[riverbound]

How much is the Trident going for?? just curious? :idea:
Too much for me right now...but as soon as I can afford one, you guys are coming on the maiden voyage :D

[Havasu_Dreamin]

$169,900 at the dealer, completely loaded. There are no options, it is just slammed.
:eek:

[Cole Trickle]

Only if you boat in England......
I think most new boats are on the right and it seems the older stuff is on the left?
My Cole Jetboat is on the left.

[BADBLOWN572]

Wes,
I have a question for you about liability on a pattent protected gel coat. If a customer comes in to a manufacturing facility and picks one of their "standard" gel designs, or commissions an outside artist to design their gel, and the design happens to be similar to the Revolutions, would the customer be liable, or only the manufacturer/artist? Would all customers be required to do due dilligence in finding out if their gel design would be considered a "splash" from an IP protected product?
Danny

[BADBLOWN572]

I think most new boats are on the right and it seems the older stuff is on the left?
My Cole Jetboat is on the left.
The general rule when building boats was that anything with a hand throttle was on the right hand side and anything with a foot throttle was on the left hand side. It could always be changed, but that is what was "standard."

[Cole Trickle]

$169,900 at the dealer, completely loaded. There are no options, it is just slammed.
No doubt it will be the Bentley/Ferrari of the boat world.:)

[carreraelite]

I think most new boats are on the right and it seems the older stuff is on the left?
My Cole Jetboat is on the left.
My '70 Kona was on the right, but both of my Carreras have been on the left. I personally like the left side. I don't know if there is a differance from the MFG. stand point or not. :D

[Cole Trickle]

The general rule when building boats was that anything with a hand throttle was on the right hand side and anything with a foot throttle was on the left hand side. It could always be changed, but that is what was "standard."
Huh...
It dosen't bother me either way but it is nice to be on the right side when pulling up to RoadRunner by yourself. ;)

[Sleek-Jet]

Wes,
I have a question for you about liability on a pattent protected gel coat. If a customer comes in to a manufacturing facility and picks one of their "standard" gel designs, or commissions an outside artist to design their gel, and the design happens to be similar to the Revolutions, would the customer be liable, or only the manufacturer/artist? Would all customers be required to do due dilligence in finding out if their gel design would be considered a "splash" from an IP protected product?
Danny
It will be an intersting precedent...

[BADBLOWN572]

It will be an intersting precedent...
That is what I was thinking.
Additionally, what happens if the owner of the boat sells it. Would the new owner be liable for any actions of the old owner? Kind of like recept of stolen property?

[Froggystyle]

Wes,
I have a question for you about liability on a pattent protected gel coat. If a customer comes in to a manufacturing facility and picks one of their "standard" gel designs, or commissions an outside artist to design their gel, and the design happens to be similar to the Revolutions, would the customer be liable, or only the manufacturer/artist? Would all customers be required to do due dilligence in finding out if their gel design would be considered a "splash" from an IP protected product?
Danny
All liability concerns are firmly seated in the manufacturers lap. If a builder was to put a big Superman "S" on the bow and Marvel comics had a problem with it, they would take the trademark concern up with the builder, and then inevitably with the builders liability insurance company. The customer can ask for whatever they want to.
We will be offering at no charge one of the two Trident specific designs. If a client wants a special design, there will be a copyright search involved to ensure non-encroachment. If there is a prior use on the market, known or found, I will ensure a proper lisence of the design is obtained from the rightful owner and pass the lisence fee over to the client. I will liscense our design to anyone who is interested in it, but I will be paid well for it. Most would likely choose to use a different design as a result. If one of my clients is so set on a prior design that they are willing to pay a lot extra for the liscense, I will do it.
The only person in the industry that has ever drawn anything that I loved was John West. I think John is one of the most talented artists in the business right now, which is one of the reasons he is copied so much. Hopefully, he will jump on this IP bandwagon and start protecting his stuff. If he did, all of these other boats would start looking pretty plain very quickly.
BTW John, you can still file cease and desists on every manufacturer that has copied you, which should protect you for your new stuff at this years show.

[Boa1277]

No doubt it will be the Bentley/Ferrari of the boat world.:)
It took Ferrari and Bentley how many years to develop their reputation, I think it has along way to go before I would give it that type of comparrison, more like Delorean, or Hudsucker right now, and that is not a put down at all, both of those cars were very well made, and I think the Delorean only came in one color also. I am just now hearing about the Revolution, I am very interested in seeing one. Its like this with any new product it takes awhile for people to really accept them. I have seen alot of boat builders come and go, hopefully this one will stay. Guess I am just a optimist. I do like his ideas and wish the company all the best.

[BarryMac]

The thread that pulled me out of the hide mode.
Great thread Wes, your stuff is definitely cutting edge (sorry RD), you will undoubtedly sell a ton of boats. I wish you and Audry only the best of luck in the Boat Business, being the best is tough, when you are you have everyone trying to get to your technology, they wanna be you and they will do what ever they can to try and be you, even if it means stealing what rightfully does not belong to them, we deal with that everyday at my workplace, being #1 is hard, staying #1 is even harder. Good Luck...

[NOCTURNAL]

Let there be no mistake. There is NO rule in all of IP protection land that states anything about 10%. That is imaginary. No code, no guideline etc...
This was a concept designed in my opinion by people looking for a guideline for copying and getting away with it. When someone uses it in a court, it is nearly the last nail in the coffin in their defense case. It shows a near complete lack of understanding of the laws and regulations.
Its funny that I have been involved with a company that has dealt with such situations and it was hard to defend. The 10% rule did not appear out of thin air. It becomes a judgement call as to the degree of change between one design and another when determining if it was copied, or an innovation. It becomes harder to defend with they have much deeper pockets than you. You can apply for a new patent and receive it when making an innovation on an existing product so long as it has significant difference.

[Bella]

What about a white boat?

[riverracerx]

Wes,
Just curious, but if I wanted a custom design that no one else had would I as the customer have to pay you (or any other manf) the money to protect it, or would the builder cover that cost? (is it in the 169K price already?)
Also, if you have patented two designs does that mean that once you get a handfull of boats out there they will all look the same?
And where is my update? I love reading about the new stuff going on at Trident.
Keep up the good work. I can't wait to see how his all plays out.
Chris

[Boa1277]

What about a white boat?
Now you are talking, White with as little graphics as possible, yeah it is plain, but then again I was never one for a ton of graphics either. To me to much grapics and to many colors, go with Hooker beads, and skiing naked down the river.

[Cole Trickle]

It took Ferrari and Bentley how many years to develop their reputation, I think it has along way to go before I would give it that type of comparrison, more like Delorean, or Hudsucker right now, and that is not a put down at all, both of those cars were very well made, and I think the Delorean only came in one color also. I am just now hearing about the Revolution, I am very interested in seeing one. Its like this with any new product it takes awhile for people to really accept them. I have seen alot of boat builders come and go, hopefully this one will stay. Guess I am just a optimist. I do like his ideas and wish the company all the best.
I do agree with most of your thoughts.
One thing that seperates the trident from the Delorean or Hudsucker is that it actualy looks good and performs as advertised.The Delorean while hip for a split second was hardly a sports car that offered amazing performance.It did have alot of trick stuff but to compare it to Ferrari/Bentley is quite a reach.
I personally would not own a ferrari/Bentley/Lambo as I like to get alot for my money and those cars don't really offer much bang for the buck.(They are amazing and I understand why they bring such a price)
The Revolution will not appeal to everyone due to it's design features and price tag but I believe Wes is in this for the Long Haul.He has built the boat from the ground up and done more than enough homework to make it a success.Most of the comers and goers thought they could make alot of money by building what they consider custom boats eventhough it's a really tough marketplace.(How many times have the known So.Cal boat builders gone out of buissness to start up 3 months later with the same name/molds with new owners)

[Boatjob26]

Good luck with the business! You have an interesting marketing program and it is a very ballsy at that. I think with all the investing and r&d you did, you priced your product out of the market. But to each his own. I personally do not see the "custom boat" market lasting much longer than the housing market here in California.

[Rexone]

Let there be no mistake. There is NO rule in all of IP protection land that states anything about 10%. That is imaginary. No code, no guideline etc...
This was a concept designed in my opinion by people looking for a guideline for copying and getting away with it. When someone uses it in a court, it is nearly the last nail in the coffin in their defense case. It shows a near complete lack of understanding of the laws and regulations.
Even if the 10% was law just how would you measure it. Where is the line between 10% and say 11%. Think about that and it even makes the concept more ridiculous. IP and design is not something you can weigh on a scale or put in a measuring cup or beaker.
Good post Wes.
Now if only I could figure out how to apply IP protection in a "cost effective" way to small hardware and rigging items. In reality on small stuff the cost of protecting it many times is much more than the potential profit. So it just gets copied because the market for many items isn't large enough to justify the expenditure to patent. Funny thing is most that claim "best design in the industry" or "finest product of its kind" in their advertising just copied the part from someone else.
Case in point. The Rex Marine No-Burn Flapper. We "designed" and introduced this in the late 90's and within months it was on the market by other parts companies under similar names, non-burn flapper, anti-burn flapper, yada yada (how original). While the part was a step ahead of the other designs of the time it had problems that showed up over time so we quit building it 3-4 years ago in favor of our newer and much heavier and again "original design" Superflapper™. The copiers are still selling the old no-burn and butterfly (another Rex original) design today to my knowledge. I never claim something to be original Rex design unless I can cough up the original drawings and ad dates to support it.
Sorry for the simi-hijack Wes, but this IP and copying issue are a real sore spot for myself and many in our industry, both boat and hardware suppliers. I think it's comendable that you're steping out and letting it be known to other builders, "don't be copyin my stuff if you don't wanna meet the judge".

[mbrown2]

I applaud Froggy for defending IP regardless of how it might turn out for the company long term.
As for the 169K Dual Jet/Deckboat market, I don't see it......But if he only needs to turn build a certain # boats a year to turn a profit and keep the dream going, then more power to him.:)
I have climbed around and ridden in the boat and although their were fit and finish items left to smooth out.....the boat road well, came out of the hole quick, planed quick, and rode very flat and smooth.....and the stock twin turbo setup is down right "wicked" (in my best D'Ally G impression).
Now to the real important stuff....Is that Jessica Alba's A$$ in JBB's new avitar....that A$$ is smoking...:):)

[Froggystyle]

Even if the 10% was law just how would you measure it. Where is the line between 10% and say 11%. Think about that and it even makes the concept more ridiculous. IP and design is not something you can weigh on a scale or put in a measuring cup or beaker.
Good post Wes.
Now if only I could figure out how to apply IP protection in a "cost effective" way to small hardware and rigging items. In reality on small stuff the cost of protecting it many times is much more than the potential profit. So it just gets copied because the market for many items isn't large enough to justify the expenditure to patent. Funny thing is most that claim "best design in the industry" or "finest product of its kind" in their advertising just copied the part from someone else.
Case in point. The Rex Marine No-Burn Flapper. We "designed" and introduced this in the late 90's and within months it was on the market by other parts companies under similar names, non-burn flapper, anti-burn flapper, yada yada (how original). While the part was a step ahead of the other designs of the time it had problems that showed up over time so we quit building it 3-4 years ago in favor of our newer and much heavier and again "original design" Superflapper™. The copiers are still selling the old no-burn and butterfly (another Rex original) design today to my knowledge. I never claim something to be original Rex design unless I can cough up the original drawings and ad dates to support it.
Sorry for the simi-hijack Wes, but this IP and copying issue are a real sore spot for myself and many in our industry, both boat and hardware suppliers. I think it's comendable that you're steping out and letting it be known to other builders, "don't be copyin my stuff if you don't wanna meet the judge".
Great post Mike. Which brings to mind a certain reality that is pertinent to the discussion at hand.
Mike doesn't build an exhaust tip that will work with the ends of my sponsons. Additionally, asking him to do that would be ridiculous. I love the superflapper though, and wanted to use it. So what to do?
It isn't that it is difficult to reproduce, or change 10% or whatever you want to do. It is all principle. I don't even know if it is covered or not. The bottom line is simple... Mike was where I heard about it, and I believe him to be the innovator of it, though most parts are easily machined or purchased.
I have Bassani Exhaust installing the superflappers that I am buying from Mike in every exhaust, along with BTW an icon explaining that Rex marine Superflappers are installed.
This is case in point for what I am talking about, and the lengths we have gone to with every turn to ensure that the originators are getting credit/paid for their work.
Same with Place diverter, same with myriad other items that I will only go to the originators for. One such item is the sand spike. While it certainly is not earth shattering, the Sand Spike was a great idea who's time has come. Even though it is nothing more than an adapted slide hammer, I will still go to them for it. I mention this because I was offered a really trick version in billet early this year and wouldn't buy it unless they got a liscense from Sand Spike to use their name and they were in on it. Or, their permission. In any case, I wanted the guy who came up with the idea to get paid.
Chris, yes, after building several boats I hope to have many out there that have similar graphics. They will look like Tridents, and you will be able to tell a Trident from across the lake. This is one of the reasons the graphic is so important to me.
If a client had a piece of original artwork they wanted to do, I would do a search for conflict which I would do at my cost, and offer the ability to copyright the idea to the client. They would own the rights to it from then on. If I really liked it, and wanted to put the design on more boats, they would get paid everytime I, or someone else wanted to use it.

[Steamin' Rice]

I have a question for you. Suppose that one of the boats pictured below was a Trident with copyrighted gelcoat. Would you sue the manufacturer of the other boat in this case? I think that these gelcoat designs are similar, but I don't think that they are copies of each other.
If this was in court with a jury of non-boaters, most of them would probably say that these two boats look the same even though to me they are very different and I would never confuse these two.
I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with you, I'm just using an example to try to understand where you draw the line on splashing graphics.
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/234cole.jpg
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/234dex.jpg

[BadKachina]

Nice post, your point is well taken. Will the other manufacturers care? Probably not until they have to pay for it. Good luck with your business.

[MagicMtnDan]

Funny how the people fragging Froggy either haven't shown up on this thread or they've changed their tune and are now kissing his butt.
Keep up the great work Wes. Every recreational boater will be better off when your company is a big success. I hope you don't sell out to a Bayliner or other big company. They may want to buy you out just to keep you from fixing their industry.

[Froggystyle]

I have a question for you. Suppose that one of the boats pictured below was a Trident with copyrighted gelcoat. Would you sue the manufacturer of the other boat in this case? I think that these gelcoat designs are similar, but I don't think that they are copies of each other.
If this was in court with a jury of non-boaters, most of them would probably say that these two boats look the same even though to me they are very different and I would never confuse these two.
I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with you, I'm just using an example to try to understand where you draw the line on splashing graphics.
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/234cole.jpg
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/234dex.jpg
Personally, I would say that there is some serious 'splainin to do. There is no doubt it is derivative, and I see there is zero chance that they occurred independently of each other. One came first, and the other was probably brought in as an "inspiration piece" for which to base the gel design.
One of the reasons I have gone so far to make the gel different not only in shape but in features (hollow spear points, Trident design etc...) is because it eliminates any confusion as to which came first. We know the exact dates the ads and updates hit the public, and have every instance of the boat in public documented to this point. If someone gets that close to my design, there will be a problem.

[Her454]

If someone gets that close to my design, there will be a problem.
That's because SEALs are mentally unstable to begin with. :p :D
http://www2.***boat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94908
ROTFLMAO............... :hammer2:

[voodoomedman]

I have a couple of questions????
I'm not trying to bash I just really wonder this.
Why is it Trident Custom Boats if you basically just go to a dealer and buy what's on the floor with everything already in it? I know there is major debate as to what constitutes custom but if you can't choose any options... You say that it comes with everything already and I understand that but it just seems that would make it Trident Performance Boats or something like that.
My other question has to do with the way you talk about other manufacturers and the industry in general. Yes there are quality and design differences in every manufacturer but do you really think it makes good business sense to bad mouth the others. That alone will turn a lot of people off of your product. I'm not saying don't point out the differences. I will point out the differences in my company and my competitors to my customers and show how we are better and state facts but I will never say they suck or they are a bad company or whatever. If they are really bad the customers usually find out for themselves and come back to us. I will however pull out factual data and show them why we are better at certain aspects. I don't know you may not even say things really all that bad I just kinda get the impression from your posts that the only boat on the water worth anything will be the Trident. While I do like what your doing and alot of other quality manufacturers the best boat for me and my family right now is my Ultra. But that doesn't make anybody elses boat suck.
Again just a couple of thoughts I had. While they don't relate to the IP thing I think you opened up this forum for these type of questions.

[Sleek-Jet]

I don't think I've ever seen a post from Froggy blatantly bashing another boat manufacturer. He points out what he is doing different, and why he thinks it will be better, but he's never said... "Trident will be better than fill in the blank boats because they suck... "
He has pointed out his percieved deficiencies in the custom boat building industry as a whole.
He's found a new way to skin the cat, more power to him. I hope he sells more boats than he can build.

[Her454]

I don't think I've ever seen a post from Froggy blatantly bashing another boat manufacturer. He points out what he is doing different, and why he thinks it will be better, but he's never said... "Trident will be better than fill in the blank boats because they suck... "
He has pointed out his percieved deficiencies in the custom boat building industry as a whole.
He's found a new way to skin the cat, more power to him. I hope he sells more boats than he can build.
heheh Sleek postin like a newbie. :mix:

[Sleek-Jet]

heheh Sleek postin like a newbie. :mix:
I was wondering if anyone saw that or not.... :D

[tcook33]

Nicely written. And as I said before, more power to you for standing up for what you believe in. There aint nothing wrong with that. The issue was the thread you were in, and the approach you made at it.
One question. It seems that it would be extremely hard to protect graphics. I can understand say Oakley, protecting a certain design on a pair of their shades. But are they protecting the color of them also? There are only so many ways to paint a boat without crossing over the imaginary line that says it's very similiar to the next. I guess what I'm trying to say is it's very logical to me to protect a design or a mold or shape of something. But to protect a color or paint scheme seems very tricky, and it seems there would be lots of time spent in court with nothing happening, or maybe even the opposite, everybody paying out the ass for splashed color schemes that were never meant to be splashed or were innocently overlooked.
With that being said, here is my opinion.
In the end, this will affect all of us folk who will ultimately pay for it. If this catches on, each boat manufacturer will eventually follow suit and the cost of all boats will rise. To protect the colors on the boat. I guess it's inevitable for this to happen.

[Her454]

I was wondering if anyone saw that or not.... :D
I see all. ;)

[rivercrazy]

One question. It seems that it would be extremely hard to protect graphics. I can understand say Oakley, protecting a certain design on a pair of their shades. But are they protecting the color of them also? There are only so many ways to paint a boat without crossing over the imaginary line that says it's very similiar to the next. I guess what I'm trying to say is it's very logical to me to protect a design or a mold or shape of something. But to protect a color or paint scheme seems very tricky, and it seems there would be lots of time spent in court with nothing happening, or maybe even the opposite, everybody paying out the ass for splashed color schemes that were never meant to be splashed or were innocently overlooked.
Couldn't agree more with this. Personally, I see gelcoat graphics as more fluff over substance anyway. Nice to look at if done well but its fluff nonetheless.

[ChumpChange]

If all designs were patented, won’t we run out of designs for boats soon? Everybody will be afraid of where their inspiration came from.

[MagicMtnDan]

If all designs were patented, won’t we run out of designs for boats soon?
Of course! That's the idea. Once you run out of designs for boats they can't sell any more boats so the waterways won't be as crowded. :messedup: :messedup: :messedup:

[THOR]

Couldn't agree more with this. Personally, I see gelcoat graphics as more fluff over substance anyway. Nice to look at if done well but its fluff nonetheless.
I agree too. You cant put a patent or protect rights that come from pure imagination. It just isnt possible. Nor is it possible to protect colors that arent yours to begin with. A noble thought and idea to introduce some integrity but this IP stuff is a tough sell in court. It isnt done successfully.

[riverracerx]

Orange metal-flake is on the come back! ;) Mark my words.

[Froggystyle]

One question. It seems that it would be extremely hard to protect graphics. I can understand say Oakley, protecting a certain design on a pair of their shades. But are they protecting the color of them also? There are only so many ways to paint a boat without crossing over the imaginary line that says it's very similiar to the next. I guess what I'm trying to say is it's very logical to me to protect a design or a mold or shape of something. But to protect a color or paint scheme seems very tricky, and it seems there would be lots of time spent in court with nothing happening, or maybe even the opposite, everybody paying out the ass for splashed color schemes that were never meant to be splashed or were innocently overlooked.
With that being said, here is my opinion.
In the end, this will affect all of us folk who will ultimately pay for it. If this catches on, each boat manufacturer will eventually follow suit and the cost of all boats will rise. To protect the colors on the boat. I guess it's inevitable for this to happen.
This will without a doubt affect everyone if all goes well. The creative and innovative gelcoat designers will have a market for their product that actually pays. Not only will a great design have a tendency to stay with the company that came up with it, but anyone who did value the gelcoat as a part of the whole package may actually have to buy a higher dollar boat to get a higher dollar gelcoat. Additionally, companies known for their gelcoat (i.e. Ultra) will have a far higher premium paid for not only their graphic designs but for the quality of the gel itself. I am not going to shed a tear for the poor Mom and Pop that has been skimming off the innovators all of these years and now has to either use stale designs that are not protected (the classic "hockey sticks" or any of the other seventies designs you see out there) or try their hands at drawing a boat or two and seeing how the public accepts them.
With regard to the "custom" part of the name... this has been discussed a hundred times, but here we go again. The term "custom" when referring to boats indicates a genre of boats separate from "production" boats. They have custom built motors and drives, far more expensive rigging and outfitting and are generally far higher performance. This is the market that we are building for, and this is the type of boat we build. I could just have all of the custom options normally available already checked off for the order form and include them all free of charge if that would make it look better, but if I had options for my rigging, this would be a $250,000 boat. Everything is being made available at this price because of purchasing power and the ability to build more than one and get into a system. To go buy our motor from Carson Brummett is over $70,000 retail, and you would be hard pressed to find one for less. My cost to build is greater than mosts retail price.
I have never bashed on another boat builder. More to the point, I have always stated that they are all good boats today, some better than others. I have bashed on the policies of other builders though, and I have bashed on the industry, and those who know the industry know exactly what I am talking about.
Lastly... RiverCrazy... I know you sweated your gel design. You sweated it a lot. You and Jen spent a lot of time figuring it out, so it isn't fluff. It was important to you. Gel is a very important part of the boat. It is the single most descriptive item on it in fact. It is the thing that sets the identity of it and separates it from the pack. Nobody talks about the "boat that went by with the gray carpet inserts and 496 mag... They talk about the white Shockwave with the blue and yellow stripes or something. It is a huge part of the whole genre, and probably the most visible separation between us and the production boats.

[Jbb]

What the hell, I just gotta get my .02 cents worth in ! LOL
I've spoken with each of you on the topic of ENTEGRITY before but for the ones on the boards that are not familiar with the boating industry it has been home to some of the biggest lowlifes that ever walked the face of the earth. It might be possible to count on two hands the number of members of this industry that actually know the meaning of the word
:D :D :D :D :D :D

[Jordy]

I agree too. You cant put a patent or protect rights that come from pure imagination. It just isnt possible. Nor is it possible to protect colors that arent yours to begin with. A noble thought and idea to introduce some integrity but this IP stuff is a tough sell in court. It isnt done successfully.
But why shouldn't it be??? Mickey Mouse was someone's imagination, with colors that weren't Walt's to begin with, as were thousands of other characters. Yes it's a stretch, but if you're on the creative side of the imagination and the colors, I'd bet you'd feel different. What was the saying regarding music??? Every song that has ever been written is based on the same 8 or 12 or 16 notes?? (sorry, not a musician. ).

[Froggystyle]

Oh, and by the way, you can absolutely trademark a color or color combination. "Tide" has a very specific color, which is why "Surf" is darker. Not much darker, but they were unable to use the same color and combination of colors because it drew confusion on the supermarket aisle. Other notable colors that are trademarked are "Starbucks Green", the "Cadbury Purple", "Catapillar Yellow", "John Deere Green and yellow" and one close to our hearts "Mercruiser Blue" If it is known to be a color combination that is a trademark of the company, it cannot be infringed upon.
That being said, the shape of the design is far easier to prove copyright infringement on. If that is compounded with similar colors... slam dunk case.

[Jbb]

Im gonna steal RD's Mister design...and sell them and get rich.......he is not paying attention...the time to strike....is now!... :D

[THOR]

But why shouldn't it be??? Mickey Mouse was someone's imagination, with colors that weren't Walt's to begin with, as were thousands of other characters. Yes it's a stretch, but if you're on the creative side of the imagination and the colors, I'd bet you'd feel different. What was the saying regarding music??? Every song that has ever been written is based on the same 8 or 12 notes?? (sorry, not a musician. ).
I agree about the concept of mickey or another fictional character that has marketing rights, but colors and unlimited combinations doesnt seem possible to protect. That is all I am saying. BTW, I hate splashing. Mine was splashed by a yellow and red Howard and I wasnt happy at all. But, I wouldnt ever think of hiring a litigator about the issue.

[Flashover]

All i would like to say is with the number of boats being built every year and all of the differnt graphics being done it is almost impossible not to have 2 or even 3 or more people with graphics that are very similar. boating is supposed to be fun for everyone, and desighning your graphics is a big part of that. Don't take it to the level where people have to worry about being sued by trident for having graphics that are really close to yours. Tha last thing the industry needs is another watchdog. Lets just have a good time and enjoy boating with friends and family and loose some of the ego's. Remember only you make Trident boats and isn't that what really matters..
Can't we all just get along... :D :D

[THOR]

Oh, and by the way, you can absolutely trademark a color or color combination. "Tide" has a very specific color, which is why "Surf" is darker. Not much darker, but they were unable to use the same color and combination of colors because it drew confusion on the supermarket aisle. Other notable colors that are trademarked are "Starbucks Green", the "Cadbury Purple", "Catapillar Yellow", "John Deere Green and yellow" and one close to our hearts "Mercruiser Blue" If it is known to be a color combination that is a trademark of the company, it cannot be infringed upon.
That being said, the shape of the design is far easier to prove copyright infringement on. If that is compounded with similar colors... slam dunk case.
I am not saying that an obvious copy of a gel is weak and should be punished. But, something that is similar cannot be. "substantially" similar is a legal term and I use it all the time while testifying.
I am offended that you didnt use Bobcat white and orange. That just plain hurts. :) Wes, if someone uses your exact gel and paint, then by all means get 'em.

[OG'sBeanSack]

I agree about the concept of mickey or another fictional character that has marketing rights, but colors and unlimited combinations doesnt seem possible to protect. That is all I am saying. BTW, I hate splashing. Mine was splashed by a yellow and red Howard and I wasnt happy at all. But, I wouldnt ever think of hiring a litigator about the issue.
Yeah but, I bet you'd hire a litagator if someone stole your Rainbow Flag! :hammerhea

[THOR]

Yeah but, I bet you'd hire a litagator if someone stole your Rainbow Flag! :hammerhea
Very good response. I cant wait for number 114. :rolleyes:

[THOR]

Also Wes, why should paying a very high premium for a custom gel cost even more now? That is all part of the custom boat biz IMHO. If I pay John West 'x' amount of dollars for a custom boat that he says he will design and we will collaborate on a gel design, then why charge more?

[OG'sBeanSack]

Very good response. I cant wait for number 114. :rolleyes:
Oh, here we go....sorry to take a stab at a HB member who has 1000+ posts.... :eek:

[THOR]

Oh, here we go....sorry to take a stab at a HB member who has 1000+ posts.... :eek:
Its okay since you did it with a toothpick.

[OG'sBeanSack]

Also Wes, why should paying a very high premium for a custom gel cost even more now? That is all part of the custom boat biz IMHO. If I pay John West 'x' amount of dollars for a custom boat that he says he will design and we will collaborate on a gel design, then why charge more?
Ignorance at its best.
Go read post 1, educate yourself.

[THOR]

Ignorance at its best.
Go read post 1, educate yourself.
We are beyond that now Rook. :rolleyes:

[OG'sBeanSack]

We are beyond that now Rook. :rolleyes:
Everyone step aside, we have a HB Member w/ over 3000 posts (applause) taking center stage. Make a hole!!! :D :p

[KineticoH20]

Im gonna go get some paint and paint the MONA-LISA and there's not a damn thing you can do about it :p

[cola]

:eek:
Now Scott, you paid 3/4 or so of that for yours. :cool:

[Flashover]

One other thing.
Froggystyle you being a Retired Navy Seal you have my utmost respect and admeration as an american. On top of that you chose probably the most difficult call of duty in the millitairy when you chose to be a part of a seal team.
Good luck with your buisness i hope you do well, And thank you for serving our country...

[77charger]

whoever trademarks tribal will be rich by now if they are not yet,LOL.
IMO some certain designs of gel schemes will be similar without the intent of copying another.There are only so many designs to use.Now with darrel robinsons boat those were exact copys(if those were trademarked definite violation)But take flames for example just cause one builder uses them does that give the right for only him to use them and no one else can? slight change and color IMO are ok.Exact copy of anothers creation aint right in my book.(just swaping colors) at least use some imagination
Wes good reading on your post if i am in el cajon i will try to stop by and check oout your shop

[tcook33]

Oh, and by the way, you can absolutely trademark a color or color combination. "Tide" has a very specific color, which is why "Surf" is darker. Not much darker, but they were unable to use the same color and combination of colors because it drew confusion on the supermarket aisle. Other notable colors that are trademarked are "Starbucks Green", the "Cadbury Purple", "Catapillar Yellow", "John Deere Green and yellow" and one close to our hearts "Mercruiser Blue" If it is known to be a color combination that is a trademark of the company, it cannot be infringed upon.
That being said, the shape of the design is far easier to prove copyright infringement on. If that is compounded with similar colors... slam dunk case.
Understood. But...we are not talking about "trident orange" or "trident blue". We are talking about each individual boat that comes out of the mold for a customer. I think that there is a difference. No?
I have a friend that owns a drilling business. He recently purchased a new rig that uses a specific color they put on all their rigs. Kinda like Caterpillar yellow. He didn't want that color. He wanted his own color. The color of his company happens to be army green. The manufacturer built the rig and painted it army green during the build process. It wasn't the first drill rig to be painted army green and probably not the last.

[Froggystyle]

Mine was splashed by a yellow and red Howard and I wasnt happy at all. But, I wouldnt ever think of hiring a litigator about the issue.
Hmmmm... Another Howard splashed design? Don't go in the other thread with that allegation.
You wouldn't hire a litigator because you don't build boats for a living. It is an ego and personal thing for you. It is business for me, in addition to the ego and personal hit of course.
I can't believe so many people are even loosely supporting stolen gel designs. I would have thought that keeping the innovators on top would be more universally rewarded here.
I agree that boats cost enough, and there shouldn't have to be a markup for gelcoat design. I am not going to charge one. This is one of the reasons I am sticking with the Trident designs for now. I have already cleared them with copyright considerations, and know them to be mine. No more additional expense needs to incur.
When I design others, I will clear them as well before putting them on a boat. I will incur the expense personally on anything I plan on using again. If it is the clients design... they can do what they want with it. I will probably pay for the copyright for them if it is a good one though so it cannot be copied.
This is all theory and speculation at this point for me. It is a gargantuan (so rarely I get to use that word in a sentence...) leap of ego for me to think that my company will thrive with the paradigm I have set in place. No options, above market price and performance, high tech engine and drive and limited gelcoat schemes. I appear to be asking an awful lot of the buying public, but I have been rewarded with clients who want EXACTLY what I have designed and built, and wouldn't change it if they could. If that pot goes dry, I reserve my right to do any number of things to ensure the financial success of the company, up to and including offering a base boat at a significantly reduced price or selling factory direct if need be. Fact is, everyone who has called the boat overpriced has not seen it, and if the boat was 50K less, they probably wouldn't buy it anyway.
That's why they make apples and oranges. I will have a buyer as long as someone in America is looking for the best.

[THOR]

Excellent Wes. I am merely playing devil's advocate here but I think you know that. Shadow's rip off was a joke and still is. I feel bad for him. Also, I completely understand the man hours you spend to design something special and the paradigm you have in place. BTW, excellent use of both paradigm and gargantuan. Well done. Now, your biz is building boats and nobody should be able to copy what you have done and not expect to pay royally for doing so. I think that is what you are intended to get across in the aforementioned diatribe. :wink:
You said Howard splashed design.. Didnt you mean Ultra splashed since Howard copied mine? Maybe I am not reading it correctly.

[SummitKarl]

This all sounds nice in a perfect world "don't copy me" but we all know better, Japanise cars are a good example of this. there are only so many ways to do things, when I was a Engineer for General Atomics, we would set 2 teams of engineers off on the same design...if they both came back with a similar design/answer you knew you were on the right path.
as for the graphics thing I see it with my neighbor "TATOO artist" always worried about other tat'ers stealing/copying his flash.
I don't see where the patent office is going to patent "A LIKENESS"
Anyone can design the same home I do...no one protects against that WHY?............research "THE ROCKWELL CASE" only so many ways to build a fence. give it a go if you wish but I have 4 U.S. patents, I know the process and I just don't see it happening, at least from my exp.
now I am going to go take all the other guys to court that painted Their Falcons RED and put 17" torque thrust rims on them :eek: :D :chi:
think about this how does this protect the end customer?
only "revolution" boats will have the same graphics as me if I purchase a revolution boat?
It might protect Revolution from others copying, but as a customer why would I pay more for graphics that could still end up on another revolution boat?
you would have to patent each and every serial no. to protect the customer

[Froggystyle]

I think that is what you are intended to get across in the aforementioned diatribe. :wink:
Where is my little clapping hands smiley for this use of diatribe... We speak well English today!
You said Howard splashed design.. Didnt you mean Ultra splashed since Howard copied mine? Maybe I am not reading it correctly.
What I meant to say was another design splashed by Howard. That was how all of this nonsense came to pass, and how I got made out to be an ogre on the other thread because Gary had just shown first pics of the Howard Sport Deck with splashed graphics.
I didn't even bring it up... which is the funny part. I got the business end of the ire though.

[Froggystyle]

think about this how does this protect the end customer?
only "revolution" boats will have the same graphics as me if I purchase a revolution boat?
It might protect Revolution from others copying, but as a customer why would I pay more for graphics that could still end up on another revolution boat?
you would have to patent each and every serial no. to protect the customer
Well, you can rest soundly knowing that you didn't draw them in the first place. You would pay more because it is part of what separates your Trident, which will soon be considered a top of market boat, with the rest of the pack.
The cache of owning the best is a huge part of why we go and spend the extra money. I just dropped $8,300 on a Snap-On toolbox yesterday because I just couldn't live with the next one down, and I sure as hell wasn't going to use a Craftsman. Keep in mind of course that I pulled my tools out of my Craftsman to put them in the new Snap-On. Sure, they basically look the same, and they both hold tools well. Hell, cardboard boxes hold tools well. I bought the best because there wasn't anything better. And when great mechanics come in the shop, my rig will have an impact on them. They will know that I am committed to my tools and my trade, and even though that kind of money on a toolbox may not be in the cards for them, they likely spend a whole lot of money on something that I don't personally get either. Wine is like that for me. Growing up in Sonoma, there are people that drink $100 bottles of wine with dinner and bitch if it isn't like the $100 bottle they had last week. I don't value wine as much as my folks do, but they don't value subwoofers as much as I do. My gelcoat will be as important to the identity of a Trident as the Ferrari horse was to Enzo... Mine just gets to be more visible. I am going to use my gel designs as a badge. You won't need a sticker on the side to know it is a Trident... you will know by the way it looks.

[THOR]

Where is my little clapping hands smiley for this use of diatribe... We speak well English today!
What I meant to say was another design splashed by Howard. That was how all of this nonsense came to pass, and how I got made out to be an ogre on the other thread because Gary had just shown first pics of the Howard Sport Deck with splashed graphics.
I didn't even bring it up... which is the funny part. I got the business end of the ire though.
Ogre? Nice. Thanks for the hand clap. Also, I read the Howard stuff and I just dont understand how folks defend the obvious splash.

[Froggystyle]

You would have to patent each and every serial no. to protect the customer
Actually, you would have to copyright it, which is exactly what I have done for the first two. My receptionist is getting good at it. Once the first one was formatted, filed and recieved, all you do is fill in the blanks on the next one with the changes. All of the applications will be basically the same except for details with regard to color etc...
Perhaps I wasn't clear. I don't want to be copied, and if I can keep that from happening for under $1K per boat, it is worth it to me.

[Froggystyle]

Ogre? Nice. Thanks for the hand clap. Also, I read the Howard stuff and I just dont understand how folks defend the obvious splash.
It was a toss up between that and "cretin". Both were significantly better than the other early considerations of "schmuck", "whoreson", and "imperforate anus"...

[No Name]

[QUOTE=Froggystyle]This thread is for all of those folks who are legitimately miffed over my participation in threads about other manufacturers, and my comments with regard to splashed gelcoat.
I really don’t see what the big deal is. Millions of boats out there and lots of simular graphics . But never have I seen two that were exactly the same.

[Froggystyle]

I really don’t see what the big deal is. Millions of boats out there and lots of simular graphics . But never have I seen two that were exactly the same.
Let me promise you, there are plenty out there that are as the same as the company doing the copying could get. The only differences would likely be found in the parts not visible in the angle of the picture from the magazine.
None look as good as the original, because none were designed for the boat like the original.
Speaking of which, if there is a real concern as to whether or not I can sell a bunch of boats with the same graphics... feel free to reference Ultra, who for the next two years following the debut with Robinson's boat painted almost every Shadow I saw with the same exact scheme minus the flag. Painted a bunch of the other boats the same way too. All color variations of the exact same flames. Two years earlier, they did the same thing with Kevin Spaises tribal flames that were designed by John and were found on almost every manufacturer and a good half of the boats done by Ultra until Darryl's boat.

[Infomaniac]

This is the most time I have spent reading an entire thread in quite some time.
And the least amount to offer from a post on the subject as well.

[SummitKarl]

Actually, you would have to copyright it, which is exactly what I have done for the first two. My receptionist is getting good at it. Once the first one was formatted, filed and recieved, all you do is fill in the blanks on the next one with the changes. All of the applications will be basically the same except for details with regard to color etc...
Perhaps I wasn't clear. I don't want to be copied, and if I can keep that from happening for under $1K per boat, it is worth it to me.
so you are going to copyright each and every boat?
so who ownes the copyright "Trident" or the "Customer" see where I am going, I just don't see where the protection for the customer comes in here. this is the idea right...no one else will ever have a boat like the The one I purchase from you, If I (the customer) does not own the copyright, then I don't get it.....WHAT AM I PAYING FOR.....the right for trident to be the only one to reproduce the graphics?

[BadKachina]

What kind of speeds are you predicting with the jet drive?
Who services the drive?
What kind of warranty will you offer and where will the warranty work be performed?
Are you not offering Mercury power?
What is the warranty on the hull?

[Froggystyle]

so you are going to copyright each and every boat?
so who ownes the copyright "Trident" or the "Customer" see where I am going, I just don't see where the protection for the customer comes in here. this is the idea right...no one else will ever have a boat like the The one I purchase from you, If I (the customer) does not own the copyright, then I don't get it.....WHAT AM I PAYING FOR.....the right for trident to be the only one to reproduce the graphics?
As I stated earlier, anyone who wants to do a custom design through me will have to have it go through a search process. By the time you are through the process, it is only a couple hundred extra to copyright. I will likely pay for the copyright to prevent theft by other manufacturers. Again, as I stated, if I wanted to use the design on more boats, I would agree to a liscense fee from the originator.
If I design and copyright a graphic on your boat, I own the IP. I am not designing schemes as a work for hire. They are an integral part of the boat I am delivering.
The customer doesn't own the rights to the bottom either. Or the features. They didn't design them.
The value to a client is in the ownership of a boat worth more money because a key indicator of the quality of that boat isn't diluted by an inferior manufacturer copying the design. The goal is to keep non-Trident owners from painting their boats like Tridents.

[SummitKarl]

You are paying for the priveledge of owning a boat that will not be copied. Like having a one of a kind wedding ring made. In theory. so it's a matter of trust that Trident or the ring maker won't reproduce it?

[GUGS102]

Well… I am throwing my .02 in as well. This topic hit close to home. I work for a product design and engineering company. Most of what we do is for OEMs in the automotive and aerospace markets, however we frequently design consumer products. The point of the matter to me is that although gel coat can be simplified and rationalized as not that important in the grand scheme of things, the principal of infringement still holds true. I wholeheartedly support Froggy for sticking to his guns and trying to protect what his team has created. Whether it is a paint scheme or novel manufacturing process, it does not matter. Protect it! The unfortunate part of corporate world now is that you do not have to be right, you just need deeper pockets. We recently ran into a situation with Daimler Benz, do we have a case, maybe, but how to even contemplate taking on Goliath.
The other issue is that most people that are not involved day to day fail to see the costs associated with a new design. Research, design, testing and manufacturing a product, even a simple product can be a substantial investment. By protecting what is yours from the get go, you can take them to task not in the court room but negotiate to hit them where it hurts $$. Most companies do not have infinite resources, you do your best to spend them wisely and have as much bang for the buck.
As far as colors go, I think you should incorporate color choice just as you do logos. If I see a boat that is unmistakable as a certain manufacturer by color then that color becomes part of their brand. Froggy, I say go for it and protect as much as you can.
Cheers,

[Froggystyle]

What kind of speeds are you predicting with the jet drive?
Who services the drive?
What kind of warranty will you offer and where will the warranty work be performed?
Are you not offering Mercury power?
What is the warranty on the hull?
1) Delivering the boat at 74mph stock. Hoping to see nearly 100 with the stock motor and a more aggressive state of tune.
2) The dealer you purchased it from
3) Warranty details are still being worked out with the dealers, but all work will be done by approved shops or the dealer you bought it from. Also included is a service program for the life of the warranty. Changing your own oil voids the warranty.
4) Merc can hug my nuts. The performance out of our stock motor eclipses anything Merc has and would rip anything short of a #6 off the transom. For the stern drives, we will be using a Weissman, but I feel confident that anyone who rides in a Dual Drive will be buying one.
5) Lifetime.

[cdog]

I'd assume that with all the money that Guy's like Bob Leach and Reggie Fountain have that you're probably beating a dead horse. If they could have done it. It would have allready been done or have found out that it was'nt worth it. Other builders can splash designs but would probably fall short on quality and reputation. Either way, their just posers. Most west coast boats are........... :coffeycup

[Froggystyle]

so it's a matter of trust that Trident or the ring maker won't reproduce it?
Not really. Again, if I designed it, it was never yours. The boat is a product you purchased, not the rights to the design.
I will be happy to put copyrighted graphics on the boat. I would do a Superman "S" or a Red Bull icon on the side with no problem. I plan on doing the latter early next year in fact. Corporate boats are a market I am heavily pursuing, as the deeper pockets allow even greater freedom of customization on my part. I would need a written approval of a liscensing contract however first, even if the liscense fee was zero.
The owner of the artwork needs to get paid.

[Froggystyle]

I'd assume that with all the money that Guy's like Bob Leach and Reggie Fountain have that you're probably beating a dead horse. If they could have done it. It would have allready been done or have found out that it was'nt worth it. Other builders can splash designs but would probably fall short on quality and reputation. Either way, their just posers. Most west coast boats are........... :coffeycup
I have partnered with my IP firm to split the proceeds of the protection. I did not have the ability to pay for all of the protection at once, so I cut a deal with them for greater protection in exchange for a piece of the pie. So real is the threat of encroachment they wanted a part of it. As you can imagine, they have wrapped up quite a few loose ends I hadn't considered. When "Sharpening the Cutting Edge" was stolen by a motorcycle boot manufacturer for use in their ads, my lawyers caught it before I did. All they did was inform me of impending litigation.
BTW, we settled out of court, paid for a huge portion of our total IP costs, and the boot company I am discussing is a lot bigger than Eliminator.

[BadKachina]

1) Delivering the boat at 74mph stock. Hoping to see nearly 100 with the stock motor and a more aggressive state of tune.
2) The dealer you purchased it from
3) Warranty details are still being worked out with the dealers, but all work will be done by approved shops or the dealer you bought it from. Also included is a service program for the life of the warranty. Changing your own oil voids the warranty.
4) Merc can hug my nuts. The performance out of our stock motor eclipses anything Merc has and would rip anything short of a #6 off the transom. For the stern drives, we will be using a Weissman, but I feel confident that anyone who rides in a Dual Drive will be buying one.
5) Lifetime.
The Wiesman drive would get my attention. 74mph with what kind of power? Even 100 with a big enough motor to "rip anything short of a #6 off the transom" doesn't seem very efficient. I'm not trying to be negative so don't take these questions wrong, but I would think these are some of the questions perspective buyers might ask.
When I ask where the service or warranty work will be performed and you say by the dealer I bought it from that seems pretty vague. One thing Mercury does have is 1000's of authorized service centers. It doesn't seem to convienent if I have to keep my warranty intact by bringing my engine to you for service unless I live in your immediate vicintiy. It also doesn't allow me to price shop or take my boat anywhere else if I for some reason am not happy with the "dealer" that services my boat. How many dealers will you plan on setting up initially and how many service shops? In what areas? Who is the manufacturer of the motor? Alot of engine builders would like to have Mercury's reputation and reliability. I have seen alot of engines built by small builders fail prematurely, not to say the Mercs never fail but how many other companies have motors that are 10, 20 or 30+ years old in boats today that still run?
Btw why would void someones warranty for changing their own oil?

[cdog]

I have partnered with my IP firm to split the proceeds of the protection. I did not have the ability to pay for all of the protection at once, so I cut a deal with them for greater protection in exchange for a piece of the pie. So real is the threat of encroachment they wanted a part of it. As you can imagine, they have wrapped up quite a few loose ends I hadn't considered. When "Sharpening the Cutting Edge" was stolen by a motorcycle boot manufacturer for use in their ads, my lawyers caught it before I did. All they did was inform me of impending litigation.
BTW, we settled out of court, paid for a huge portion of our total IP costs, and the boot company I am discussing is a lot bigger than Eliminator.
Intresting. When I was looking for a design other than tribal and flames for my boat I started looking at some of the designs on OSO and most of the boats I liked had 30k design/paint work done to them. I spoke to a design guy and it was about $1,600 bucks for a design/stensil of the graphics. I desided to cut and paist some ideas from DCB and mix them. It turned out good for a boat within my $$$ range. I'm no expert on this subject but it seems that you could copywright you're logo but not a actual design. For instance. Look at Z28 stripes on all sorts of race cars. I'm sure the 69 Z28 was'nt the first to have it but it's the most well known.

[No Name]

Let me promise you, there are plenty out there that are as the same as the company doing the copying could get. The only differences would likely be found in the parts not visible in the angle of the picture from the magazine.
None look as good as the original, because none were designed for the boat like the original.
Speaking of which, if there is a real concern as to whether or not I can sell a bunch of boats with the same graphics... feel free to reference Ultra, who for the next two years following the debut with Robinson's boat painted almost every Shadow I saw with the same exact scheme minus the flag. Painted a bunch of the other boats the same way too. All color variations of the exact same flames. Two years earlier, they did the same thing with Kevin Spaises tribal flames that were designed by John and were found on almost every manufacturer and a good half of the boats done by Ultra until Darryl's boat.
I’m sure you’re right, see a lot of boats cruse thru the channel at Hava. Most of the time I’m hammered :hammer2: but I think next summer I will try to stay sober for an hour or two and pay more attention. Maybe I will see what you are talking about.

[BadKachina]

I’m sure you’re right, see a lot of boats cruse thru the channel at Hava. Most of the time I’m hammered :hammer2: but I think next summer I will try to stay sober for an hour or two and pay more attention. Maybe I will see what you are talking about.
I just thought it was the same boat going by over and over again. :rolleyes:

[No Name]

I just thought it was the same boat going by over and over again. :rolleyes:
I don’t care who you are, THAT’S FUNNY :cool:

[superdave013]

This is the most time I have spent reading an entire thread in quite some time.
And the least amount to offer from a post on the subject as well.
I'm splashing your thinking right about now. lol
go wes go!

[No Name]

:D :D
Hey, at least as a Kachina owner, you don't have to worry about splashing. It's not like other manufacturers are clamoring to paint murals of buffalos or wizards on their boats. :p :D
This is ture. :)

[BadKachina]

:D :D
Hey, at least as a Kachina owner, you don't have to worry about splashing. It's not like other manufacturers are clamoring to paint murals of buffalos or wizards on their boats. :p :D
I like that. :D :D

[ELVIS]

news flash big guy, like your boat mine too is orange and purple and get this they both have the helm on the right side.

[Froggystyle]

The Wiesman drive would get my attention. 74mph with what kind of power? Even 100 with a big enough motor to "rip anything short of a #6 off the transom" doesn't seem very efficient. I'm not trying to be negative so don't take these questions wrong, but I would think these are some of the questions perspective buyers might ask.
Well, we did 74 with 615hp. 0-60 times below six seconds. Our stock configuration is with a 900+ hp motor detuned to 600+ at the impellers. No prop on the planet in our size range can claim those numbers. The motor will be good for over 1000hp on good gas as delivered. The only extra price you pay is that you will void your motor warranty and then you can take it to whoever you want for service. Our oil changes are free.
When I ask where the service or warranty work will be performed and you say by the dealer I bought it from that seems pretty vague. One thing Mercury does have is 1000's of authorized service centers. It doesn't seem to convienent if I have to keep my warranty intact by bringing my engine to you for service unless I live in your immediate vicintiy. It also doesn't allow me to price shop or take my boat anywhere else if I for some reason am not happy with the "dealer" that services my boat. How many dealers will you plan on setting up initially and how many service shops? In what areas? Who is the manufacturer of the motor? Alot of engine builders would like to have Mercury's reputation and reliability. I have seen alot of engines built by small builders fail prematurely, not to say the Mercs never fail but how many other companies have motors that are 10, 20 or 30+ years old in boats today that still run?
Btw why would void someones warranty for changing their own oil?
You won't pay for the warranty service, and you won't pay for maintenance during the warranty period. I don't want you changing the oil for the same reason I should have my service done by GM on the Vette. It isn't just the oil... it is a lot of other things. We need to check the tolerance on turbos, inspect the filters, check for leaks, inspect hoses, check the drive for wear and metal in the oil and myriad other things the client cannot be expected to have the means to do. I do not want the client to be able to shortcut the preventative maintenance, nor do I want to have the client do any modifications without my approval when the warranty is on my wallet. No ignition mods, no valve cover changes. Every motor is "sealed" using serialized tamper-proof fasteners. No work is authorized on the motor or ECM during the warranty period. Only work by an approved facility will be authorized. An approved facility can be of your choosing, as long as they meet or exceed our requirements. I plan on parasitically using some Merc certified shops as our dealers and warranty repair shops. We know where they are, and when I choose to let me fingers do the walking in a certain geographic area, I will keep that in mind.
Like I said, unless you want 300+ hp for free. Then, we shred your motor warranty (you keep the drive and hull warranty) and with a couple of keystrokes and some fuel programming give you another 20+ mph for no additional charge. Tack on another 200hp if you choose to jump on the fuel grenade of 93+ octane.
For those who don't know, every Revolution comes with a Marine Assaults 522 Merlin fed by a Carson Brummett intercooled and injected twin turbo.

[Froggystyle]

news flash big guy, like your boat mine too is orange and purple and get this they both have the helm on the right side.
Damn.. Elvis is in the building.

[BadKachina]

Well, we did 74 with 615hp. 0-60 times below six seconds. Our stock configuration is with a 900+ hp motor detuned to 600+ at the impellers. No prop on the planet in our size range can claim those numbers. The motor will be good for over 1000hp on good gas as delivered. The only extra price you pay is that you will void your motor warranty and then you can take it to whoever you want for service. Our oil changes are free.
You won't pay for the warranty service, and you won't pay for maintenance during the warranty period. I don't want you changing the oil for the same reason I should have my service done by GM on the Vette. It isn't just the oil... it is a lot of other things. We need to check the tolerance on turbos, inspect the filters, check for leaks, inspect hoses, check the drive for wear and metal in the oil and myriad other things the client cannot be expected to have the means to do. I do not want the client to be able to shortcut the preventative maintenance, nor do I want to have the client do any modifications without my approval when the warranty is on my wallet. No ignition mods, no valve cover changes. Every motor is "sealed" using serialized tamper-proof fasteners. No work is authorized on the motor or ECM during the warranty period. Only work by an approved facility will be authorized. An approved facility can be of your choosing, as long as they meet or exceed our requirements. I plan on parasitically using some Merc certified shops as our dealers and warranty repair shops. We know where they are, and when I choose to let me fingers do the walking in a certain geographic area, I will keep that in mind.
Like I said, unless you want 300+ hp for free. Then, we shred your motor warranty (you keep the drive and hull warranty) and with a couple of keystrokes and some fuel programming give you another 20+ mph for no additional charge. Tack on another 200 if you choose to jump on the fuel grenade of 93+ octane.
Nice reply, you servicing the boat for free under warranty is a refreshing idea. Good luck to you and your company.

[shadow]

[QUOTE=Froggystyle]This thread is for all of those folks who are legitimately miffed over my participation in threads about other manufacturers, and my comments with regard to splashed gelcoat.
I really don’t see what the big deal is. Millions of boats out there and lots of simular graphics . But never have I seen two that were exactly the same.
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/15022004_0615Image0010.JPGhttp://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/1502mohave_dam_run.jpghttp://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/15022004_0615Image0002.JPGhttp://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/5472cheta-med.jpg

[Rexone]

Wes how is servicing gonna be addressed by a guy in podunk North Dakota where it's a thousand miles to the nearest dealer or approved service shop for an oil change ect.... It will come up sooner or later. Not everyone who buys your boats will be near a dealer. People will drive long distances to "buy" a boat but not sure they'll be too receptive to the same for "routine service".
I think its a great idea outside of this issue possibly.
Most auto warranties if not all have no restrictions on where routine service can be performed. Not sure if it's even legal for them to require it be done by a dealer (I don't think it is). I know it's not legal for them to "require" OE parts be used for example GM can't require use of an AC oil or air filter vs. other aftermarket such as Fram or K&N to keep warranty in force and other aftermarket parts that are gov approved don't void warranty either such as K&N FIPK kits, Filters, programmers, ect. Only when an aftermarket part causes a problem can warranty be denied, not from just the part being present or alternative service facility being used. I have not read law on this just going from memory on what I've read from SEMA on these issues and have no idea if they apply to boats as well as new cars and trucks. I'm sure the questions will come up though just wondering if you've researched these potential issues as they may or may not affect your boat / engine warrantys.

[Boa1277]

Funny how the people fragging Froggy either haven't shown up on this thread or they've changed their tune and are now kissing his butt.
Keep up the great work Wes. Every recreational boater will be better off when your company is a big success. I hope you don't sell out to a Bayliner or other big company. They may want to buy you out just to keep you from fixing their industry.
I would say along way from kissing anyones butt, but nice try Magic, I have no problem admitting I may have been wrong about froggy not being innovative, but kissing his butt is quite a reach, one thing that was accomplished is he did start his own thread like he should have in the first place. Kissing butt you are a beauty. Actually I think you are really bad for his buisness, when he just starts to get people to listen to what he is saying you tick them off. Way to go and help out a buddy.
Now I have read this whole thread, and alls I have to say is WOW, he is really trying to change the boating industry, I wonder what the industry will be saying in 5yrs, will the Revolution be one of those boats that some of the other builders that have been around along time, be laughing at or will the other builders be trying to Hire Wes as a consultant to fix their business. Only time will tell. It sure sounds good.

[92562]

What I meant to say was another design splashed by Howard. That was how all of this nonsense came to pass, and how I got made out to be an ogre on the other thread because Gary had just shown first pics of the Howard Sport Deck with splashed graphics.
I didn't even bring it up... which is the funny part. I got the business end of the ire though.
Wow, I wasn't going to respond in the original thread for obvious reasons, and now we go bashing again! I was in Howard office when the sport deck's graphics came together. I can tell you from putting together my own gel coat with Mike that there were no other pictures around when the sport deck came together. Maybe the owner had an idea in mind from something he'd seen in the past but to call it a splash?! I have seen Danas, Conquests, and Eliminators with "similar" gel coats, but not the same.
And to the point, I believe a "splash" has to do with the mold and not the graphics. Remember when Chaparral came out with their "extended V plane hull" in '94? It was a true performance and handling advantage for its day/class. Four Winns and a few others "splashed" it by '96, and Chaparral sued. Millions later, THEY LOST, and no one had a design like it before.
Froggy, I applaud your service to our great country, and I believe you have a revolutionary product. When I decided to drop 100 large on a boat, after considering performance, handling, etc., I ultimately spent my money with people I WANTED to give it to. This is why so many So Cal builders do so well in the industry, because "it takes all kinds". I worry that your perceived attitude on these posts could ultimately steer people away from your product. I mean, I am arrogant, but you raise the bar brother! Some people design, others build, some sell, and some do customer service. Find the right people, pay them well to do those jobs, and you can't lose. Trust me!
Howard did not copy someone else's product, they don't need to. However, they will always give their customers EXACTLY what they want. Not because they want it, because the customer does. If you've ever been to the showroom you'd know they don't have room for "floor models". What you get is truly custom. (No, I'm not sucking up, I have the title to my boat & I'd by a Howard again if I was in the market).
Good luck Froggy, this is not a bash, consider it constructive criticism.
Cheers!
------Rob

[Phat Matt]

I would like to say that I understand what Wes is trying to do. It takes balls to do what he is doing and after talking and hanging out with him and hearing his dream...he hasn't steared clear. This guy has a passion for what he is trying to do...and believe me, he is a passionate guy, in what ever he does! I have hung out with him, his lovely wife, and part of his Trident team, and they have a vision. Across the internet it may seem arrogant to some, but it's because he whole heartedly believes he is doing this for his company and the people who buy his boats. He backs up what he believes in whether it's his concept of the best deck boat brought to the market or whether TTX's are better than Techniques. :) (inside DJ joke)
Splash this splash that...Wes is doing his best with his team to bring something different to the boating market. You can't fault a guy for trying to blaze a new trail. If people didn't take risk were would we be today? Granted boat companies come and go and a lot are in it for the quick buck...this guy is not. He is in it for the long haul and with out his vision, I am sure he wouldn't have the investers to back him up.
If he wanted to make a quick buck I am sure he could have made a boat to wuit people's needs that were easy to sell and been way past boat #3...but that is not the way this guy works from the little bit of time I have spent with him. He's not one to cut corners. He's a perfectionist. I think if some people actually spent a little face to face time with him, and didn't just base their judgements or opinions of what came across on the boards got to know him, you would understand his point of view a little more.
Honestly this guy is doing what he thinks is best for the upperscale boating enthusiast and nothing more. He wants to give a turn key bad ass turn your head and look at this boat. Nothing more. Either you want it, or you don't.
People talk about options and what not but for you SoCal peeps what do you think about In-N-Out's menu. Do you want a burger, cheese burger, or double cheese burger? Keep it simple, but keep it the best, and you'll do alright. :)
Good luck Wes! :D

[Sleek-Jet]

4) Merc can hug my nuts.
Out of this entire thread, this is the best quote... :D

[Froggystyle]

Wow, I wasn't going to respond in the original thread for obvious reasons, and now we go bashing again! I was in Howard office when the sport deck's graphics came together. I can tell you from putting together my own gel coat with Mike that there were no other pictures around when the sport deck came together. Maybe the owner had an idea in mind from something he'd seen in the past but to call it a splash?! I have seen Danas, Conquests, and Eliminators with "similar" gel coats, but not the same.
And to the point, I believe a "splash" has to do with the mold and not the graphics. Remember when Chaparral came out with their "extended V plane hull" in '94? It was a true performance and handling advantage for its day/class. Four Winns and a few others "splashed" it by '96, and Chaparral sued. Millions later, THEY LOST, and no one had a design like it before.
Howard did not copy someone else's product, they don't need to. However, they will always give their customers EXACTLY what they want. Not because they want it, because the customer does. If you've ever been to the showroom you'd know they don't have room for "floor models". What you get is truly custom. (No, I'm not sucking up, I have the title to my boat & I'd by a Howard again if I was in the market).
Good luck Froggy, this is not a bash, consider it constructive criticism.
Cheers!
------Rob
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/2636dana_boats_008.jpg
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/383db1m.JPG
One of these two boats was copied. My guess is it was the second one as the first came out a year beforehand. That they are not exactly identical is not an issue. The Howard's gelcoat is without a doubt derivative.
If you want to know if one was copied, describe the gelcoat... White boat, red/burgundy windscreen, orange kind of swoosh down the middle that kicks back forward on the back of the boat like a can opener, blue shadow on the swoosh that gets heavier in the curve and a red/burgundy two spike arrowhead with the spikes going back forward from the center of the orange.
Same graphic dude. No two ways about it.
My criticism of Howard is that a company of that stature and experience can't find it in their plan to draw some unique gelcoats? ESPECIALLY on their first unit of that model? I could absolutely never, ever ever ever bring a copied gelcoat to a show or put it on a magazine.
As for the custom getting EXACTLY what they wanted... well, my guess is that Dana's client got exactly what he wanted. Howards customer got exactly what Dana's customer wanted too. The customer is not always right. It is our job as manufacturers to guide them through their purchases, advise them on systems and color schemes, and if we feel through our experience that a boat is going to be ugly or less saleable as a result of a criteria they are setting while in the middle of a very stressful optioning evolution, we need to speak up and stand our ground. That includes ripping off graphics.
The problem here is that people like you are attaching no value to a design. Fortunately for guys like me, legally there is a value, and it is quite a lot. In fact, as I stated earlier the value of the first instance lawsuit costs more than that boat does. When the reality of stolen graphics vs. income hits home to some of these manufacturers, I think you will see a lot more "traditional" graphics out there, and I think the innovators will rise to the top quickly.
You innovators hear me out there? Is this thing on? It looks like it is judging from the number of registrations we have gotten on the website in the last day. Protect your stuff. I'll help you. We can do it.

[tcook33]

[img]
One of these two boats was copied. My guess is it was the second one as the first came out a year beforehand. That they are not exactly identical is not an issue. The Howard's gelcoat is without a doubt derivative.
If you want to know if one was copied, describe the gelcoat... White boat, red/burgundy windscreen, orange kind of swoosh down the middle that kicks back forward on the back of the boat like a can opener, blue shadow on the swoosh that gets heavier in the curve and a red/burgundy two spike arrowhead with the spikes going back forward from the center of the orange.
Same graphic dude. No two ways about it.
My criticism of Howard is that a company of that stature and experience can't find it in their plan to draw some unique gelcoats? ESPECIALLY on their first unit of that model? I could absolutely never, ever ever ever bring a copied gelcoat to a show or put it on a magazine.
As for the custom getting EXACTLY what they wanted... well, my guess is that Dana's client got exactly what he wanted. Howards customer got exactly what Dana's customer wanted too. The customer is not always right. It is our job as manufacturers to guide them through their purchases, advise them on systems and color schemes, and if we feel through our experience that a boat is going to be ugly or less saleable as a result of a criteria they are setting while in the middle of a very stressful optioning evolution, we need to speak up and stand our ground. That includes ripping off graphics.
The problem here is that people like you are attaching no value to a design. Fortunately for guys like me, legally there is a value, and it is quite a lot. In fact, as I stated earlier the value of the first instance lawsuit costs more than that boat does. When the reality of stolen graphics vs. income hits home to some of these manufacturers, I think you will see a lot more "traditional" graphics out there, and I think the innovators will rise to the top quickly.
You innovators hear me out there? Is this thing on? It looks like it is judging from the number of registrations we have gotten on the website in the last day. Protect your stuff. I'll help you. We can do it.
I can see the point here. You are trying to protect your designs. Fine. It just seems like you are taking the issue a little too far. You are going overboard and in the process could possibly deter a lot of people away from your product. Maybe it's because you have to explain yourself here on this site over and over again and we are hearing it straight from the horses mouth, so it seems so drastic. I don't know. This is just my opinion. You must have good reason for what you are doing and have done plenty of research as I can tell by reading your responses.
Do you think that designing a one-off gel coat constitutes an "innovator"? I'm no graphic artist, but I have designed a few logos for my own company as well as a few others along with my companys graphics for my dirt bike. I would hardly say I'm an "innovator". I would think that these companys are putting these gels on these boats because that's what the customer wants.
Lets just say that in 5 years you have completely changed the industry, and manufacturers are no longer "splashing" others' designs. I can hardly imagine that this will seperate the "innovators" from the "splashers". They will just spend unpteen hours researching a godzillion other boats already in the water to make sure no lawsuit is in order and draw a swoosh a litltle different or change the color scheme or what have you. After that's all said and done, quality and service will seperate the boat manufacturers. Just like today. Only difference is, there wont be so many boats that look similiar. I look at the boat before I look at the color. The quality and lines of a boat define the boat, not the color. The color is just a finishing touch, a personality extension of the OWNER, and a good explanation tool.

[BiggusJimbus]

And to the point, I believe a "splash" has to do with the mold and not the graphics.
I believe that splashing is specifically referring to copying the boat hull design.
In either case, the correct word is infringement.
I believe the main test is whether the alleged infringement causes confusion between the two objects. There is no specific question of intent, but it can certainly help prove a case.
Also, if you don't protect your designs from the start, you can't later go back and start trying to deter infringement. You have tacitly allowed it to be copied freely.

[BADBLOWN572]

Well, I definitely have to applaud Wes for being extremely passionate in his endeavors and for building a very high quality product.
With that being said, when is enough enough? My boat has been knocked off a ton of times. The first year when it was in the LA Boat Show, I saw approxiatmely 8 different boats that were REAL similar to my boat. But, when I built my boat, I sat down with about 15 drawings of various boats and pulled out designs and ideas that I liked. So, you could say that my boat is a combination of 15 various boats or I "splashed" 15 different boats. All of them have some sort of design influence in my design.
I knew my boat was going to be knocked off, but I never would have considered trying to IP my design. Why go out and spend a TON of money? It was not worth it to me. So what, someone likes my design and copied it. They say that to copy someone is the biggest form of flattery. They liked my design so much they used it for their own. Thanks for the compliment!!!
I can completely see using IP laws to protect something that is going to "Revolutionize" the industry. This being a product, assembly, component, or whole. Gel does not revolutionize the industry and like it has been said before, it is simply Fluff. The gel does not make the boat. I would consider it similar to Jewelry on a girl. If done right, it can look good, but just because a girl has nice jewelry, doesn't mean that she is a keeper. Gel doesn't make or break the product.
I am going to be real interested to see how this whole deal plays out the first time someone does infringe on the gel design. I can guarantee one thing, it is not going to make the rest of the boating industry happy!!!

[rivercrazy]

You and Jen spent a lot of time figuring it out, so it isn't fluff. It was important to you. Gel is a very important part of the boat. It is the single most descriptive item on it in fact. It is the thing that sets the identity of it and separates it from the pack.
That's funny Wes. Jen and I actually spent about 2 nights discussing gelcoat designs. Then sat down with Mancini and had it drawn out in about an hour. Hell if custom gelcoat designs are available, why not take advantage of it? We didn't stress the gelcoat one bit to be honest.
To me the most signifcant advantages of going with a custom boat builder are higher quality and stronger layup, better raw materials, rigging, service, performance, developing a personal relationship with the owner/builder, and the total numbers of boats produced by a mfg is much less than a production shop (so you see less of your model running around).
Gel is fluff over substance in my opinion. But that also doesn't mean that you settle for an all white boat with vinyl stickers either.

[Jordy]

But that also doesn't mean that you settle for an all white boat with vinyl stickers either.
Hey now... :cool:

[NOCTURNAL]

"While they cannot be dismissed as unimportant, barriers to imitation are rarely as high as a naive faith in the efficacy of intellectual property regulations might lead one to expect"
"By using reverse enginerring techniques, most patents can be invented around rapidly. One large sample study of patent protection found that 60 percent of patented innovations were invented around within four years"
- Charles W.L. Hill, from the Academy of Management Executive magazine,1997, vol 11, no 2

[rivercrazy]

Hey now... :cool:
No offense there Jord. Your boat is definately substance over fluff. And it doesn't melt in saltwater!

[redi4fun]

***boaters,
Let us not beat a dead horse, Wes has in detail explained how he will uphold his designs and what will determine if a design is thought to be a derivative of another. I don't think there is anything more to say.
We will all be awaiting the first time another manufacture displays a gel scheme that is remotely close to a Trident design. I am sure we will all watch closely to see what Wes does about it and what the outcome is.
If I did own a boat company, I for one knowing damn well how passionate this man is about his company and his boats would not test the waters. Idle threats or not, 10% difference or not, totally different or a derivative, I would not be the first sucker to test the man for my wallet is way too important to me. :D
Good luck Wes and the Trident team.

[Jordy]

No offense there Jord. Your boat is definately substance over fluff. And it doesn't melt in saltwater!
Just checking. :D :D :D

[tcook33]

[QUOTE=redi4fun]***boaters,
Let us not beat a dead horse, Wes has in detail explained how he will uphold his designs and what will determine if a design is thought to be a derivative of another. I don't think there is anything more to say.QUOTE]
Sorry, I thought that what this thread was for. Wes seems to be doing a fairly good job explaining his product. That's part of being a business owner...

[cdog]

http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/2636dana_boats_008.jpg
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/383db1m.JPG
One of these two boats was copied. My guess is it was the second one as the first came out a year beforehand. That they are not exactly identical is not an issue. The Howard's gelcoat is without a doubt derivative.
If you want to know if one was copied, describe the gelcoat... White boat, red/burgundy windscreen, orange kind of swoosh down the middle that kicks back forward on the back of the boat like a can opener, blue shadow on the swoosh that gets heavier in the curve and a red/burgundy two spike arrowhead with the spikes going back forward from the center of the orange.
Same graphic dude. No two ways about it.
My criticism of Howard is that a company of that stature and experience can't find it in their plan to draw some unique gelcoats? ESPECIALLY on their first unit of that model? I could absolutely never, ever ever ever bring a copied gelcoat to a show or put it on a magazine.
As for the custom getting EXACTLY what they wanted... well, my guess is that Dana's client got exactly what he wanted. Howards customer got exactly what Dana's customer wanted too. The customer is not always right. It is our job as manufacturers to guide them through their purchases, advise them on systems and color schemes, and if we feel through our experience that a boat is going to be ugly or less saleable as a result of a criteria they are setting while in the middle of a very stressful optioning evolution, we need to speak up and stand our ground. That includes ripping off graphics.
The problem here is that people like you are attaching no value to a design. Fortunately for guys like me, legally there is a value, and it is quite a lot. In fact, as I stated earlier the value of the first instance lawsuit costs more than that boat does. When the reality of stolen graphics vs. income hits home to some of these manufacturers, I think you will see a lot more "traditional" graphics out there, and I think the innovators will rise to the top quickly.
You innovators hear me out there? Is this thing on? It looks like it is judging from the number of registrations we have gotten on the website in the last day. Protect your stuff. I'll help you. We can do it.
It's just a god dammed boat! Get over it. I'd bet 90% of us could give a shit!
BTW. Do you have a step in you're hull? Could that be considered splashing? I see you have a pitch fork / arrow deal on you're boat in the pic. Since my boat has one too and my boat was made last summer does that mean you owe me $$$$? I don't mean to jump you're shit here but I think you're being nit picky. Aside from you're TT engine, Jet and Hull combo I don't see how you've done anything that differant. Especially in the Gel cote. I've seen you're boat in Tow. Right now you're a small fish in a big pond with lot's of sharks. Watch out for the big boy's. You may open Pandoras box.

[1stepcloser]

On the subject of Darryl's Shadow, I know him pretty well, think the boat looks awesome, and mean absolutely no offense.
But Wes, as you stated, the tribal style of flame had been done for at least a couple of years by Ultra prior to Darryls, and as has been beat to death on this forum, checker's and all of the variations had been done by Eliminator for most of the late 90's, That the two were combined in a fresh new design made it different?
If I were to take your graphic, and duplicate it on my new *________ and add lets say a large airbrushed fire design escaping from the rear quarters backward, as is the style of Darryl's boat, would that then be a "new" design and not subject to your infringement?
* Insert your favorite manufacturer here

[tcook33]

It's just a god dammed boat! Get over it. I'd bet 90% of us could give a shit!
BTW. Do you have a step in you're hull? Could that be considered splashing? I see you have a pitch fork / arrow deal on you're boat in the pic. Since my boat has one too and my boat was made last summer does that mean you owe me $$$$? I don't mean to jump you're shit here but I think you're being nit picky. Aside from you're TT engine, Jet and Hull combo I don't see how you've done anything that differant. Especially in the Gel cote. I've seen you're boat in Tow. Right now you're a small fish in a big pond with lot's of sharks. Watch out for the big boy's. You may open Pandoras box.
Youre right. 90% of us could give a shit. I guess he's part of the 10%. It IS his way of life though. The way he makes his living. I agree with your post though. I'm sure he has and will do things that others have done. Time will tell what happens......There are valid points to both sides of the argument.

[old rigger]

Wow, this is one long ass thread.
First off Wes, I want to congratulate you on keeping true to your vision. I know the amount of work it takes to get a new boat off the ground, and I feel for ya.
You and I have bumped heads in the past. I still 100% disagree with your definition of the word ‘custom’ and what it means, by my definition (lol) in the boat biz… which admittedly I’ve been out of for 10 years now. So that’s neither here nor there.
There were a few things that you’ve said in this thread that I have a problem with though. You mentioned that you were going to, or already have, patented the ‘drop down ramp’ on the front of your boat. I’m paraphrasing here, so that might not be exactly the way you said it. But it gives me the impression that the drop down ramp is something that you invented and that’s just not the case. In the mid 80s when we built the first Party Cat at Advantage (the grandfather of your boat, if in nothing else, in idea) we offered that drop down ramp too. How can you obtain a patent on something you didn’t invent, or are you talking about the way it drops down? I’m not trying to stir the pot, I really don’t know. Ours was a crude, manually done thing, but still, it was a drop down ramp.
You also said you will go straight to the originator of a product and you used Frank Place as an example. Well Frank, as we all know perfected the adjustable nozzle, but he is most certainly not the originator of it. There was a Jet-O-Vator available from Berkeley before there was a place diverter so your wording there is a little confusing. I too would use Frank’s stuff if I were looking for a diverter; it’s simply the best, but not the originator.
As far as the 10% thing goes when splashing someone’s boat, it use to be that the part splashed had to be changed enough so it could not fit back into the ‘original’ mold. That much is fact, my dad was called as a witness back in the day on such a case, and I can remember that was a big deal. I doubt that it’s the same now, but I’m just saying this in response to the earlier questions about it.
Again congrats on your progress. Personally I think you’re spending way too much time and energy on gel work, (the protecting of it I mean) but I’m colorblind and to me the least important thing is the color of a boat. Your boats will be recognized across the lake by their shape and performance anyway. Not by the outline of its graphics, it’s color or anything else that could have been changed by an owner at a later date. Again, I understand why it’s important to you and I can even understand why you’ll go to the lengths you’re going to try to protect it, but I don’t see how it can be done. If I want a brand X boat with your graphics on it, I’ll get it on the brand X boat, I guarantee it. If he wouldn’t tape it that way, I’d buy an all white boat and take it to a painter and have it duplicated. My point is you may be able to stop a builder from selling your design, but you can’t stop a private individual from painting his boat that way no more than Coke can stop me from painting their logo on the hood of my car, not that I’d want a Coke logo on the hood of my car.
Good luck, it's always fun to read your posts and get an update on your progress.

[Tremor Therapy]

Rivercrazy....the same thoughts I had...my gel design was fluff, and I know Shockwave has copied it a couple of times!
But a question comes to my mind Wes...so if you put flames on your boat, a tribal pattern, a friggin triangle for that matter, and get a copywrite, does that mean if I ever decide to put a triangle on my boat I have to check with you, and possibly pay you? If so, IMHO thats lame.
Now when I see Shadow's 27, you may have a point. But I had previously seen boats with a waving checkered flag on the stern, I had already seen boats with orange and purple flames or tribal patterns, so what "proprietary" design graphics does he have that other boats had not already had? Not a slam, just questions.
Now, I had never seen a boat done exactly as his was done (and I think it is absolutely bitchen looking), but in essence, all I really see is a very unique way of putting together all of these previously done gelcoat design elements. You may disagree, but like your first boat, I have already seen fade patterns, and a tribal arrow going forward toward the bow....so what gelcoat design element have you added to the mix that makes yours so special that it is that different?

[redi4fun]

[QUOTE=redi4fun]***boaters,
Let us not beat a dead horse, Wes has in detail explained how he will uphold his designs and what will determine if a design is thought to be a derivative of another. I don't think there is anything more to say.QUOTE]
Sorry, I thought that what this thread was for. Wes seems to be doing a fairly good job explaining his product. That's part of being a business owner...
No need to apologize, The discussion has been very informative thus far. I just think Wes can explain it till he is blue in the face but there will always be what ifs.
Only time will tell. :D

[cdog]

I'd reconize a HTM anywhere. They did something differant. Same with a Schiada river cruiser. DCB's and Eliminators look the same to me. I can't tell the diff. unless I see the decals. Nor do I really care that much. I'm out there to have a good time. NOT to be defined by the art work on my boat.

[Jordy]

I'd reconize a HTM anywhere
Because it's upside down??? Sorry, someone was going to do it. Figured I'd take the ball and run with it. It was just a JOKE. :D :D :D
As you were... ;)

[cdog]

Because it's upside down??? Sorry, someone was going to do it. Figured I'd take the ball and run with it. It was just a JOKE. :D :D :D
As you were... ;)
Good one! I'd bet upright they still are the fastest 25 ft. boat on the water with the same power. Not everyone is good enough to ride a bull.

[redi4fun]

Because it's upside down??? Sorry, someone was going to do it. Figured I'd take the ball and run with it. It was just a JOKE. :D :D :D
As you were... ;)
:cry: :cry: :D :D

[syke-o]

My point is you may be able to stop a builder from selling your design, but you can’t stop a private individual from painting his boat that way no more than Coke can stop me from painting their logo on the hood of my car, not that I’d want a Coke logo on the hood of my car.
Good luck, it's always fun to read your posts and get an update on your progress.
good point about the coke logo on your car....

[Froggystyle]

In the order...
First off, I am not being nit-picky. There are very clear design elements about our gel design that are easily protected. There are traditional design elements in it as well that cannot be protected. Nobody is going to sue anyone over Hot Rod flames or checkers I think. When designing the graphics on the Revolution I took a couple of things into consideration.
A) Visual appeal in many color schemes. I wanted the Trident graphics to look good in a large combination of colors. Versatility is key for this to work.
B) Striking but sublime. I needed it to appeal to people who want a lot on their boats, or people who are more sedate in the appearance. The first boat (mine) is an example of how wild it can get with a full boat blend and vibrant graphics, and the boat getting shot tomorrow is a great example of a more straight down the middle graphic, with a white boat featuring a blood red blend graphic.
C) Protectable. By including our logo in the graphic, as well as the points and protectable non-traditional elements we could better place the graphic in a defensible position off the bat.
By keeping these three things in mind through the inception process, I have a product that is versatile and I can protect.
OR, regarding the drop down ramp and Place diverter... Our method of protection is a secret at this point. Clearly, drop down ramps have been in use since the first papyrus boats on the Nile. Landing craft in WWII used them frequently and as you stated, Advantage even cranked a few out a while back. Our method of doing it however, combined with specific shapes and elements allow our method to be protected. It is very easy to do a clunky one, very difficult to do an elegant one. We have protected what makes our method elegant. Jet-O-Vater does not make a unit any more. The Place diverter, when designed was significantly different than the Jet-O-vater. It hinges in a different place and works a different way, although it does provide much of the same function. Place was clearly derivative, but set the standard and has been imitated nearly directly since. I won't buy an imitation Place diverter, and would strongly consider buying whatever new unit that Jet-O-Vater came up with if it was acceptable for the boat.
I certainly couldn't go after a client who absolutely had to have my graphics on their boat. If a manufacturer had that situation, I would be happy to allow them to do it in gel and pay me the liscense fee. Problem solved. Coke, BTW would have a big problem with you putting their logo on a car and showing it, and could force you to remove it if they wanted to be dicks. That is why good graphics folks will always want to see permission before replicating a graphic. As an example, "Wshuwrhr" on the forums, Brian, wouldn't do a billet logo for the side of my Corvette for me that showed the crossed flags, as it is a trademarked entity. The "FRC" Vette I have looks identical to the Z06, but came out the year prior. There are quite a few FRC folks that are looking for a Z06 looking badge but don't want to be posers. I probably could make quite a few bucks on the idea, but I didn't see anything that looked cool and didn't contain any protected elements. True, I can carve anything I want to into it, but Brian wouldn't, because the liability lies with the person that does the job, not the guy paying for it.
These are great concerns and questions, and I am happy to answer them.

[riverbound]

So....should I take the Trident sticker off my boat?? :confused:

[Cole Trickle]

I keep thinking that the owner of the boat that was splashed should get the $$$ from the lawsuit?
The boat owner is the one that paid for the boat yet the company that already made alot of money on the sale is looking for more in court.....
How is this helping the consumer?

[OGsBeanSack]

So....should I take the Trident sticker off my boat?? :confused:
Hows 'bout a Trident tatoo'd on yo forehead w. a pair of brass knuckles?
:p
p.s.- not my first post either. Some nim-rod banned my other name, with no reason. Friggen admin's!!!!! :devil:

[riverbound]

Hows 'bout a Trident tatoo'd on yo forehead w. a pair of brass knuckles?
:p
p.s.- not my first post either. Some nim-rod banned my other name, with no reason. Friggen admin's!!!!! :devil:
Hmmmm....wonder why :rolleyes:

[Larry Nebb]

Coke, BTW would have a big problem with you putting their logo on a car and showing it, and could force you to remove it if they wanted to be dicks.
getting coke off the hood would be very easy. Just walk away for a sec and the cock whores would whiff that $hit right up! :eek:
edit: opps I ment coke whores ;)

[Froggystyle]

So....should I take the Trident sticker off my boat?? :confused:
No. I am totally proud to be represented on your boat. Seriously.

[Froggystyle]

I keep thinking that the owner of the boat that was splashed should get the $$$ from the lawsuit?
The boat owner is the one that paid for the boat yet the company that already made alot of money on the sale is looking for more in court.....
How is this helping the consumer?
Again, if the consumer was the one who came up with the design, paid the money for protection and liscensed the boat company who built them a boat to use it... they can make all the money available on the deal. I think that is the way it should be personally, and it is basically what I explained a little earlier.
If I do the drawing, pay for the IP protection and search, create the artwork and then enforce the protection against infractions, I get the money.
You need to remember one thing... I am being this vocal about it because I don't want it to happen. I have no plans on using my IP protection as a profit center. It is nowhere in my business plan, I promise. I am doing this to prevent people from using my graphics. Period. My IP firm has different plans, but they have their set of concerns, I have mine. I want to build unique boats, innovate and hopefully raise the level of the industry a couple of notches. Oh, and turn a profit. ;)

[OGsBeanSack]

No. I am totally proud to be represented on your boat. Seriously.
Ummm, Wes, does this mean I can get a free shirt, to provide you free advertisement?
:idea:

[Boa1277]

I do have one question for you, what type of gas mileage are you getting with this setup, I have been the owner of a jet for many years, but I always told myself I would never purchase another one because of the gas mileage, and the performance(granted I do not have diverter and racing impellar). They are great out of the hole but not to hot on top end.

[HCS]

After reading 5 pages it made me think. Which I don't do very often. :rolleyes:
Why would any one want to copy the Trident pitch forks? Just wouldn't make alot of sence to me. I can see why manufactures copy alot of the other graphics out there. But not the Trident, it's to specific to itself.
Shockwave, Howard or Eliminator splashed like an orange punkin with purple devil tails? I don't think so. :notam:
By the way Wes. I'm not saying your boat looks like a punkin. :D
It's an awesome looking ride to say the least.
Awesome pic. http://www.tridentboats.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core:ShowItem&g2_itemId=34 Really shows how it sits in the water.

[Jordy]

Oh, and turn a profit. ;)
So it's a profit thing??? Get your weight guessed here. :D

[THOR]

So it's a profit thing??? Get your weight guessed here. :D
Good pull Jordy. Very nice.

[THOR]

Hows 'bout a Trident tatoo'd on yo forehead w. a pair of brass knuckles?
:p
p.s.- not my first post either. Some nim-rod banned my other name, with no reason. Friggen admin's!!!!! :devil:
This is twice in two days you are a rookie. congrats

[OGsBeanSack]

This is twice in two days you are a rookie. congrats
I've seen you before THOR. You're the bum who lives in that cardboard box behind KMART on Magnolia St, aren't you. You should probably focus your energy on piloting that shoping cart 'round town collecting cans.

[THOR]

I've seen you before THOR. You're the bum who lives in that cardboard box behind KMART on Magnolia St, aren't you. You should probably focus your energy on piloting that shoping cart 'round town collecting cans.
I actually grew up only 1 block from there. Say hi to me next time.

[OGsBeanSack]

I actually grew up only 1 block from there. Say hi to me next time.
No prob. In fact, Ill start saving my cans fer ya. :mix:

[STV_Keith]

It's just a god dammed boat! Get over it. I'd bet 90% of us could give a shit!
The thing is, it's his boat and his right to try to protect it to stay his boat. I think what many are missing, simply maybe from not seeing pictures, is the the Revolution has a very specific gel scheme. I'd imagine it would look funky on anything other than a Trident. To that end, this might be a dead horse anyway, but protection is always better than no protection. "Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it", right Wes?
Right now you're a small fish in a big pond with lot's of sharks. Watch out for the big boy's. You may open Pandoras box.
Personally, having met Wes, I'd say he was the shark. http://www.harrythecat.com/graphics/z/shark2.gif

[STV_Keith]

Hey Wes, are you bringing the Revolution to SEMA? Any water tests/demos planned for the weekend after? That would be cool. ;)

[Tom Brown]

Hey Wes... have the Trident chewing gum people sued you yet?

[Kahuna]

Ok how about this scenario
Trident comes up with an Original Design, but someone already has it on their boat a year earlier. It could happen; I myself did a sketch when I was getting my boat done a year ago that was similar to what the Trident has now. I went a different way, that I thought no one else had done, but on the beach right next to mine was a boat with a similar design just with different colors. I am sure that I never saw that boat before I design mine but it was already done a few years before me. In order for this to work every boat manufacture would have to clear a design with Trident.
Also if I want to copy a design I would just paint it myself, go to any hot rod meet and check out how many cars paint jobs look the same.

[Rexone]

Hows 'bout a Trident tatoo'd on yo forehead w. a pair of brass knuckles?
:p
p.s.- not my first post either. Some nim-rod banned my other name, with no reason. Friggen admin's!!!!! :devil:
Let me clear this mystery up for you beansack (aka Palapahead, aka Toomstone, aka OG'sbeansack with an apostrophe). I'm the nim-rod (thanks most just call me dick). You've generated complaints with your aliases. Aliases are against the rules on ***boat (not Rexone's rules). End of story.
You're presently free to post under your original screename Palapahead. However if you sign up under any more aliases you and your IP range will be banned here.
Sincerely, Friggin admin. :)

[Sleek-Jet]

Let me clear this mystery up for you beansack (aka Palapahead, aka Toomstone, aka OG'sbeansack with an apostrophe). I'm the nim-rod (thanks most just call be dick). You've generated complaints with your aliases. Aliases are against the rules on ***boat (not Rexone's rules). End of story.
You're presently free to post under your original screename Palapahead. However if you sign up under any more aliases you and your IP range will be banned here.
Sincerely, Friggin admin. :)
What a dick.... :notam: :D :D :D

[cdog]

Personally, having met Wes, I'd say he was the shark. http://www.harrythecat.com/graphics/z/shark2.gif
Where along the the food chain does he compare to Bob Leach or Reggie Fountain? I'd say you don't know much about the marine biz by you're statements. Reggie has more money in Stearling engine packages laying around his shop than Wes has ever spent in his life. Not talking down to Wes by any means. I applaud his innovation. He's currently no where near the big sharks on the food chain. Unless he's planning on painting his version of the Mona Lisa on his boats, I just don't see how he can copywright designs that were there long before he came around. I'd bet that we can find at least 100 pic's of other boats that have forward devil tails. Big deal!

[cdog]

Hey Wes... have the Trident chewing gum people sued you yet?
HA! HA! HA!

[Tom Brown]

What a dick.... :notam: :D :D :D
... and he copyrighted the entire concept.

[Jordy]

Where along the the food chain does he compare to Bob Leach or Reggie Fountain?
Was that food chain, or gold chain?? I just saw Reggie's name and got a little confused. :D :D :D

[h2ospdskir]

HA! HA! HA!
cdog your the bestest

[1stepcloser]

:)
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/398Trident_002-med.jpg

[tcook33]

Hey Wes... have the Trident chewing gum people sued you yet?
Good question. I'd like to see how he responds to this. For someone who has put such an emphasis on "innovation", this word is not very innovative.
I have a friend who owns "Hard Rock Drilling" and he was hassled by the hotel. Not sure of the outcome.

[Tom Brown]

:)
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/398Trident_002-med.jpg
You know... that flourish under the pitchfork bears an uncanny resemblance to a Glastron swoosh. :idea:

[Tom Brown]

I have a friend who owns "Hard Rock Drilling" and he was hassled by the hotel. Not sure of the outcome.
I hope the outcome involved booze and who.res. :D

[cdog]

Was that food chain, or gold chain?? I just saw Reggie's name and got a little confused. :D :D :D
I was just joking about that the other day. Reggie looks like my Uncle Veto in New Jersey! Definitly old school! Is it just me or does it seem as though there's alot of people here that don't know much about boating beyond their own brand or doorstep. Nothing personal against anyone. Just don't drink too much of one brands kool aid.
Love it- Know it- Live it!

[HCS]

Good question. I'd like to see how he responds to this. For someone who has put such an emphasis on "innovation", this word is not very innovative.
I have a friend who owns "Hard Rock Drilling" and he was hassled by the hotel. Not sure of the outcome.
Kinda like this.
Copyright © 2004 Trident.COM. All rights reserved.

[tcook33]

I hope the outcome involved booze and who.res. :D
Ha! I think that has been the outcome of few times since then. Just not at the expense of the hotel, unfortunately.

[tcook33]

Kinda like this.
Copyright © 2004 Trident.COM. All rights reserved.
Or this.
©2004 Cadbury Adams USA LLC. All Rights Reserved.

[riverbound]

No. I am totally proud to be represented on your boat. Seriously.
Wanna trade :)

[STV_Keith]

Where along the the food chain does he compare to Bob Leach or Reggie Fountain?
I guess the pun was lost on you. Oh well.
(Am I really the only one that got it?)
:confused:
Maybe I should have found this smiley earlier: http://www.speedcraving.com/keith/seal.gif
P.S. It was a joke.

[Creator]

What's really being missed here is that we could talk until we're blue in the face and it makes no difference. Froggy can tell us all the reasons he wants, all the arguments he can come up with and all the legal crap but it still comes down to one thing. A Judge. All the this talk about I can protect this and I can sue for that doesn't mean jack unless a judge agrees with your side. So talk and ask questions, everyone seems to have valid points and questions but until the day it actually goes to court it's nothing more than just Talk.

[riverroyal]

so let me get this right,Wes is actually gonna run his boat company lie a real company,protecting his product.Thats unheard of in this industry,next someones gonna tell me when you buy his product at 150k you will get treated like you spent 150k,also unheard of in the industry.Ive never met Wes or even seen his boat,Im also not in the market for this style craft,but I can say that he does sound to me like he has thought of things others have never considered,or just didnt care.Good luck Wes.......One more thought,this means I cant do the same graffics on my next boat right? :D

[tcook33]

What's really being missed here is that we could talk until we're blue in the face and it makes no difference. Froggy can tell us all the reasons he wants, all the arguments he can come up with and all the legal crap but it still comes down to one thing. A Judge. All the this talk about I can protect this and I can sue for that doesn't mean jack unless a judge agrees with your side. So talk and ask questions, everyone seems to have valid points and questions but until the day it actually goes to court it's nothing more than just Talk.
You're right. But isnt this why we are here? To talk about bs and stuff like this till we are blue in the face? That's why this place is so fun.

[Ryphraph]

This whole thread makes me think of an ancient Hebrew curse that goes something like this...
"May you be party to a lawsuit that you think you can win"
I am sure the actuall quote is better but I hope you get the idea.
Some people give judges and juries a lot of credit to be able to make the kind of subjective decisions that they themselves can make. We can all recognize most boats and different gel schemes. Once you get a bunch of people that have never seen a "custom" boat you may be suprised what the outcome could be. Add this to the fact that the gel on a boat is included, not some add on or extra charge in most cases I would think that would be hard to regulate. If they are selling a boat and it comes with a gel design anyway it seems like it would be hard to regulate and to prove infringement. It will be interesting to see the outcome of any lawsuits.
It seems if things go in a certain direction that Trident could be spending less time in the boat building buisiness and more time in the court room. Although this may be lucrative, it would not be putting cool boats on the water.
Keep in mind there are many successful companies that are not innovative at all. Coke and Pepsi are doing OK and have about the same product.
Ryph

[Kahuna]

As soon as Trident does a Gel I like, I will steal it just to see what happens.
Nothing. :crossx:

[riverroyal]

but wouldnt the boat builder be responcible?spelled that wrong...did I read the 1st post right?.So why wouldnt someone steal it

[Jyruiz]

As soon as Trident does a Gel I like, I will steal it just to see what happens.
Nothing. :crossx:
Thats messed up. :)

[Ryphraph]

Kahuna, you had better protect your logo I may steal it!
Ryph

[riverroyal]

http://www2.***boat.com/forums/customavatars/avatar6503_2.gif

[riverroyal]

just jokin

[Ryphraph]

I guess I mispoke. I would not be stealing it. I would be infringing it...
If you steal something you go to criminal court. Infringement ends up in civil court.
Ryph

[WYRD]

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b61/WhosYoRiverDaddy/HPIM1350Medium.jpg
This is my destop picture at work..........................can I be sued? :crossx:
Really I aggree with the effort here. If I were to "Custom" design graphics on my 100K+ boat I would want them to be safeguarded somehow. What I have a question about is if the customer buys a boat and Trident owns the graphics, would Trident be able to copy it on another boat? That seems to be the only loop hole here that doesn't protect the consumer.

[Tom Brown]

As soon as Trident does a Gel I like, I will steal it just to see what happens.
Nothing. :crossx:
I'm not an expert on American civil law but my understanding is that the onus is on the prosecution to prove losses. That could be a costly proposition.
How much less are your products worth if someone copies your design? How much more would Ultra's boats be worth if there were no copycat gel schemes?
Also, what exactly is a copy? Obviously, a Trident deck boat and a Commander V can't be an exact copy. Where is the line drawn? Can you copyright colors? Mercury tried that with black engines and lost.
I think the concept Froggy is operating on is that by being hawkish and taking on a couple of people at a cost of a quarter mil to protect a ten thousand dollar paint job will dissuade future copiers from stealing his designs since he has demonstrated how tenacious he is about defending them. Also, he will probably knock his oponents out of the business since these sort of battles can be pretty costly. As long as his pockets are deeper than his competition, he will be fine.
It could well prove to be an effective strategy.
For what it's worth, I'm on Froggy's side... to an extent. He has a pretty amazing looking product and a ton of really good ideas. He should be compensated for that. It doesn't seem right for someone to splash his hull and take his ideas. On the other hand, this copyright baloney only goes so far. It's not like you can sue someone for offering the same compliment of big stereo, power bilge hatch, nice interior, etc...
I would imagine that any of Froggy's stuff could be legally splashed with only subtle variations to the original. That may not be ethical business practices but I doubt things would have to change much to get away from copyright problems.
Legal and morally correct are two entirely different conversations.

[shadow]

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b61/WhosYoRiverDaddy/HPIM1350.jpg
This is my destop picture at work..........................can I be sued? :crossx:
.
I don't know but that sure looks familiar. :cool:

[PalapaHead]

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b61/WhosYoRiverDaddy/HPIM1350Medium.jpg
Where was this taken? Very cool.

[HCS]

but wouldnt the boat builder be responcible?spelled that wrong...did I read the 1st post right?.So why wouldnt someone steal it
Because who whould want a boat that looked like that? :D

[WYRD]

Let me clear this mystery up for you beansack (aka Palapahead, aka Toomstone, aka OG'sbeansack with an apostrophe). I'm the nim-rod (thanks most just call me dick). You've generated complaints with your aliases. Aliases are against the rules on ***boat (not Rexone's rules). End of story.
You're presently free to post under your original screename Palapahead. However if you sign up under any more aliases you and your IP range will be banned here.
Sincerely, Friggin admin. :)
SEE WHEN YOU BREAK THE RULES YOU GET BUSTED :D

[riverbound]

Where was this taken? Very cool.
nacimento :D

[Tom Brown]

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b61/WhosYoRiverDaddy/HPIM1350Medium.jpg
I wonder if those Gaffrig gauges were made by Livorsi Marine. :idea:

[moneysucker]

I met Wes probably 4 (at least) years ago on my way to the river. We talked about boats in the parking lot and he treated me like a potential customer and was talking about his boat co. that he was building and I asked what mold he had obtained and he said that it was a completely new design. As new as I was to the industry, having only owning 2 boats at the time, I went to the river thinking I would look his company up on line and see that he had splashed someone elses design or lease a mold (Which I didn't know about at the time) and call it a new name. This is the standard in the boating industry and the reason why there are so many boat companies that are out of business is that there is simply not a big enough market to support competition from an exact copy of your product, especially if you are a new company and an established naame in the industry gets the jump on you and releases their "Splash" before or at the same time your public release is. Everyone will buy the established companies product thinking that the true innovator copied.
Wes is building a great company and a great product which I will be extremely pissed off if I am passed by a trident with 10 people on it going up river. Wes talked to me like a customer with respect even though I was just a punk kid who had (and still does) a lot to learn about boats. He is a business man and is looking to service his customers on to the same degree that he designed this boat, to be at the top of the industry. It would be nice to have the kind of performance that the Revolution is predicted to produce minus all the BS maintenence and tuning and testing that I have had to go through to get where I am. (No cracks about my bay fair performance either) Just my $.02
Wes good luck with the boats, one day I will come by to see one in person. What a loser I am. I actually live close too.
Cy

[HCS]

I'm missing something here.
Wes is building a great company and a great product which I will be extremely pissed off if I am passed by a trident with 10 people on it going up river.

[PalapaHead]

SEE WHEN YOU BREAK THE RULES YOU GET BUSTED :D
Yea ~ got my hand slapped, ass-spanked, and my beansack handed to me on a platter.!!!!

[coolchange]

Spam....

[Froggystyle]

Spam....
Yeah... sure. :rolleyes:

[RP1]

so let me get this right,Wes is actually gonna run his boat company lie a real company,protecting his product.Thats unheard of in this industry,next someones gonna tell me when you buy his product at 150k you will get treated like you spent 150k,also unheard of in the industry.Ive never met Wes or even seen his boat,Im also not in the market for this style craft,but I can say that he does sound to me like he has thought of things others have never considered,or just didnt care.Good luck Wes.......One more thought,this means I cant do the same graffics on my next boat right? :D
Not sure about being treated like you spent 150k, do to the fact you will be dealing with a retail dealer at that point and not Wes.
I do think Trident has a great product going and will be very successful in the future though.

[Tom Brown]

Spam....
idiot...

[HCS]

idiot...
Ok. I edit my post.
So...Tom. Do you think stripes and graphics on boats can actually be copy wrighted so no one else can duplicate them? I can see logo's and name sake.
Sure, that's all ready a done deal. Automotive manufactures won a case in a court battle where the manufactures name, such as Toyota. (Because Toyota lead the charge) can not be used on a non factory certified automotive business.
Such as the corner garage owned by Joe blow. Can no longer use the manufactures name on his business. Such as "Toyota's only" or like "The Toyota shop". Toyota lead the field in getting the name Toyota removed from all businesses that were not approved by Toyota motor corp. The courts decided in Toyota motor corps favor. That ruling favored all automotive manufactures. Aftermarket shops, repair facilities, parts houses or whatever the business may be. They can no longer legally use automotive factory names incorporated in the name of their personal business. Without paying Toyota a hansom royalty. Toyota hailed it as a big victory for all automotive manufactures. So "Tom's Toyota's" had to switch the name of his business to "Tom's Toy's" and he had to remove any factory automotive logos displayed on his building and any other advertisement related directly to the factory from his business.
However aftermarket businesses were aloud to state they specialize in a specific repair. So "Tom's Toys" could put on his building. "Toyota Specialist".
Graphics themselves I don't think could in general be 100 percent protected.
For instance. If I build a boat from scratch like Wes has done. (Which won't happen unless I hit the power ball lotto). And I soley make them jet back with yellow and orange ghost flames. How could I possibly stop other manufactures from ripping off the same pattern unless it was exact to mine.
I mean. It would have to be an exact copy. Even then I don't think it would hold an ounce of weight in a court room.
The name Trident is already being used on other boats as shown on the aluminum patio boat. I believe that's a model name not a manufacture name though. Maybe that can be clarified.
Point being. I guess. Is that I see where Wes is going. A Chevy is a Chevy and a Ford is a Ford. Unless Ford pays Izusu to stuff one of there motors in a cross over. :rolleyes:
Master Craft ski boats was the first to set the president in the ski boat industry. They perfected the tourny ski boat. If you wanted one you had to pay the price. In it's day. Now everyone makes one.
A Trident will be a Trident.

[Tom Brown]

Wanabe. :D
I wanna, really really really wanna, zigazig ha.

[Rexone]

Click Here To Oder Yours Now!
yo spellin bee champ.... :D
you gonna fart on the juicer or what?

[ELVIS]

Wes, what exactley was the purpose of this thread ? why not just send certified letters of your intentions to all these builders your afraid will steal your designs. instead of making most people think your a donkey.

[Tom Brown]

you gonna fart on the juicer or what?
:D
I splashed Jack La Lane's product brochure for the purposes of another thread. Jack will probably sue my ass but hey... at least two people will have a decent laugh over it.

[Tom Brown]

...instead of making most people think your a donkey.
Are you sure you're not thinking of OB Eddie? :idea:

[RiverToysJas]

Tom Brown! Does Wes know you have splashed his avatar??? Because if I read this thing correctly, Hot Boat is going to be sued!!!! :skull:
RTJas :D

[Tom Brown]

Hot Boat is going to be sued!!!! :skull:
Sure but we have the most fun with conflict threads so think of the laughs.

[RiverToysJas]

Sure but we have the most fun with conflict threads so think of the laughs.
I hear ya! Trident just reminds me of the missile that didn't work....
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/slbm/trident-2-DNSC8906614_JPG.jpg
RTJas :D

[Froggystyle]

Wes, what exactley was the purpose of this thread ? why not just send certified letters of your intentions to all these builders your afraid will steal your designs. instead of making most people think your a donkey.
Well, at least they don't think I'm illiterate. You're the donkey...
I started the thread because I was sick of explaining all of this on the other thread. One problem with being a manufacturer on here is that you can't say s**t if you have a mouthful. Evidently, my antipathy towards gelcoat ripoffs was misread as some form of angst against Howard. Not the case, and as I said many times in the other thread, I think Howard builds a hell of a boat, and I personally like Mike and Gene. I think they need some work on gelcoat originality.
Additionally, my participation started in the other thread due to a response I made to a friend in it. I don't have a pile of time to spend on ***boat per day, so I do a search for Trident, Froggy, Wes and Revolution and see where we were mentioned. If it is pertinent, I chime in. If not, I leave it alone. The subject was broached by someone else that Howard ripped off his graphics (another manufacturer BTW...) and it was suggested that I would sue, to which I responded. From there the mudslinging commenced.
I wanted this type of discussion off of the other thread because it became in bad taste. I have been far more vocal in this thread, as the only people in here are ones that care about the topic at hand... and you.
After looking at your contributions to this forum briefly, I think you may want to lurk on here a little longer and run your keyboard a little less. I don't think you are bringing much to the table, certainly not correct spelling.

[Tom Brown]

I started the thread because...
Maybe he was just disoriented, as most of us were, by an actual boating industry topic popping up in The Sandbar.
PS – Please don't sue me.

[Tom Brown]

Ok. I edit my post.
So...Tom. Do you think stripes and graphics on boats...
Did my Spice Girls lyric reference cause you to change your position on the name calling shtick? :D
Those are all excellent points.
I would think that proving your graphics are ripped off would be pretty tough if even the slightest variations exist. One of the things that blows me away is why people don't just vary the design a wee bit and have something that's somewhat unique.
How lame do you have to be to copy a design exactly from an original?
If I were building a custom boat, I would definitely take the best ideas I had seen, as well as some of my own, and try to blend them into something pleasing. That's not copying, in my mind. That's just common sense.

[RealityBoatCo]

Froggystyle, I think you have put a lot of effort into building your business. You have a better business plan, it would seem, than most other boat builders. I think you will do quite well. I admire that you are starting this when most would say to get out of the business.
You build a distinctive boat, that anyone of reasonable ethics would be stupid to "splash" even without the PROMISE of litigation. I do realize that there will be someone who will try.
What I see in your gel work is copyrightable, it has a distinctive look to it. One that if tried on another boat, people would say, hey that looks like Trident graphics.
The examples you had earlier of two boats that had similar gel graphics. I do not see how either one of them had a copyrightable design on them.
If I went by what you were saying about those graphics, then if I built a boat with a white bottom, blue sides, and a white deck. Then did I just "splash" a Bayliner?
And just to ease your mind, I will create a file on your company, that includes pictures of your boats. Just to show any customers or employees who try to slip a similar design through the booth.
Best wishes to you and your team.

[wsuwrhr]

Well, at least they don't think I'm illiterate. You're the donkey...
Additionally, my participation started in the other thread due to a response I made to a freind in it.
After looking at your contributions to this forum briefly, I think you may want to lurk on here a little longer and run your keyboard a little less. I don't think you are bringing much to the table, certainly not correct spelling.
Donkey, now that was some funny shit.
Wes, Friend. Spell it with me, f r i e n d.
Ok now repeat 10 times, then get back to building boats.
Seriously though, after dealing with Wes, I can't say enough good things about him and the company. I believe Trident will go far, and I am proud to be a part of it.
When I first started working with Trident, Wes PMed me asking if I wanted to do some machining for him. We ending up going over SEVERAL designs for his seat base leading into 10:00 at night sometimes. All just to get the "right" look. I hadn't even met the guy, or even billed him for a single hour of my time. He is passionate about his company, and it is contagious to say the least.
The seat base wasn't the only part he agonized over, several other ones he designed and re-designed to get them just they way he wanted.
I say whatever length he wants to go to protect IP, then so be it.
It is a free country.
The public will decide whether or not he did the right thing.
Brian

[wsuwrhr]

Furthermore,
As long as I NEVER see a Trident flipped upside down and hacked up to resemble a car body.......
Brian

[Jbb]

:p I'm not an expert on American civil law but my understanding is that the onus is on the prosecution to prove losses. That could be a costly proposition.
How much less are your products worth if someone copies your design? How much more would Ultra's boats be worth if there were no copycat gel schemes?
Also, what exactly is a copy? Obviously, a Trident deck boat and a Commander V can't be an exact copy. Where is the line drawn? Can you copyright colors? Mercury tried that with black engines and lost.
I think the concept Froggy is operating on is that by being hawkish and taking on a couple of people at a cost of a quarter mil to protect a ten thousand dollar paint job will dissuade future copiers from stealing his designs since he has demonstrated how tenacious he is about defending them. Also, he will probably knock his oponents out of the business since these sort of battles can be pretty costly. As long as his pockets are deeper than his competition, he will be fine.
It could well prove to be an effective strategy.
For what it's worth, I'm on Froggy's side... to an extent. He has a pretty amazing looking product and a ton of really good ideas. He should be compensated for that. It doesn't seem right for someone to splash his hull and take his ideas. On the other hand, this copyright baloney only goes so far. It's not like you can sue someone for offering the same compliment of big stereo, power bilge hatch, nice interior, etc...
I would imagine that any of Froggy's stuff could be legally splashed with only subtle variations to the original. That may not be ethical business practices but I doubt things would have to change much to get away from copyright problems.
Legal and morally correct are two entirely different conversations.
More legal insight....by Judge Joe Brown.......

[Jordy]

:p
More legal insight....by Judge Joe Brown.......
Nah, that was his illegitimate brother Tom. ;)
Oh, and RD Sux. :D

[Froggystyle]

Donkey, now that was some funny shit.
Wes, Friend. Spell it with me, f r i e n d.
Ok now repeat 10 times, then get back to building boats.
Brian
Yeah... caught that this morning. I'm the maroon...
Now, where are my hatch vents... ;)

[uvindex]

Yeah... caught that this morning. I'm the maroon...
Maroon is a nice color. :D

[Froggystyle]

Froggystyle, I think you have put a lot of effort into building your business. You have a better business plan, it would seem, than most other boat builders. I think you will do quite well. I admire that you are starting this when most would say to get out of the business.
You build a distinctive boat, that anyone of reasonable ethics would be stupid to "splash" even without the PROMISE of litigation. I do realize that there will be someone who will try.
What I see in your gel work is copyrightable, it has a distinctive look to it. One that if tried on another boat, people would say, hey that looks like Trident graphics.
The examples you had earlier of two boats that had similar gel graphics. I do not see how either one of them had a copyrightable design on them.
If I went by what you were saying about those graphics, then if I built a boat with a white bottom, blue sides, and a white deck. Then did I just "splash" a Bayliner?
And just to ease your mind, I will create a file on your company, that includes pictures of your boats. Just to show any customers or employees who try to slip a similar design through the booth.
Best wishes to you and your team.
A sincere thanks. If you PM me your contact information I will get you the protected graphics in hard copy, as I have done for others.
One thing you don't have to worry about is "traditional" graphics. Anything that could be considered traditional certainly cannot be copyrighted. Hence the myriad variations of the blue stripe etc...
I came a decision away from shooting this next boat two-tone, as I think the hull lines lend themselves to a top and bottom scheme very well. A really dark, rich burgundy on the bottom and a white deck. I think it would look classy and rich, and would fit in beautifully up in Tahoe, where I hope to crack open a large market of high performance deck boats. There is no copyrighting that, so that would be an example of a non-protected scheme.

[superdave013]

Seriously though, after dealing with Wes, I can't say enough good things about him and the company. I believe Trident will go far, and I am proud to be a part of it.
You know, you are not the only vendor that feels that way about Trident. I know one other vendor that's real happy to be dealing with Trident too.

[PalapaHead]

Ok. I edit my post.
So...Tom. Do you think stripes and graphics on boats can actually be copy wrighted so no one else can duplicate them? I can see logo's and name sake.
Sure, that's all ready a done deal. Automotive manufactures won a case in a court battle where the manufactures name, such as Toyota. (Because Toyota lead the charge) can not be used on a non factory certified automotive business.
Such as the corner garage owned by Joe blow. Can no longer use the manufactures name on his business. Such as "Toyota's only" or like "The Toyota shop". Toyota lead the field in getting the name Toyota removed from all businesses that were not approved by Toyota motor corp. The courts decided in Toyota motor corps favor. That ruling favored all automotive manufactures. Aftermarket shops, repair facilities, parts houses or whatever the business may be. They can no longer legally use automotive factory names incorporated in the name of their personal business. Without paying Toyota a hansom royalty. Toyota hailed it as a big victory for all automotive manufactures. So "Tom's Toyota's" had to switch the name of his business to "Tom's Toy's" and he had to remove any factory automotive logos displayed on his building and any other advertisement related directly to the factory from his business.
However aftermarket businesses were aloud to state they specialize in a specific repair. So "Tom's Toys" could put on his building. "Toyota Specialist".
Graphics themselves I don't think could in general be 100 percent protected.
For instance. If I build a boat from scratch like Wes has done. (Which won't happen unless I hit the power ball lotto). And I soley make them jet back with yellow and orange ghost flames. How could I possibly stop other manufactures from ripping off the same pattern unless it was exact to mine.
I mean. It would have to be an exact copy. Even then I don't think it would hold an ounce of weight in a court room.
The name Trident is already being used on other boats as shown on the aluminum patio boat. I believe that's a model name not a manufacture name though. Maybe that can be clarified.
Point being. I guess. Is that I see where Wes is going. A Chevy is a Chevy and a Ford is a Ford. Unless Ford pays Izusu to stuff one of there motors in a cross over. :rolleyes:
Master Craft ski boats was the first to set the president in the ski boat industry. They perfected the tourny ski boat. If you wanted one you had to pay the price. In it's day. Now everyone makes one.
A Trident will be a Trident.
Try a few comma's here and there..... :idea:

[riverbound]

I came a decision away from shooting this next boat two-tone, as I think the hull lines lend themselves to a top and bottom scheme very well. A really dark, rich burgundy on the bottom and a white deck. I think it would look classy and rich, and would fit in beautifully up in Tahoe, where I hope to crack open a large market of high performance deck boats. There is no copyrighting that, so that would be an example of a non-protected scheme.
I think that would be a bitchen looking boat. especially with all the chrome/ polished aluminum in your boats.

[PalapaHead]

After looking at your contributions to this forum briefly, I think you may want to lurk on here a little longer and run your keyboard a little less. I don't think you are bringing much to the table, certainly not correct spelling.
Wes, if I may be so bold, this chap Elvis, from the profile I have been able to produce on him from the contributions to this and other threads alone, lead me to believe he couldnt find his way out of a wet paper bag. Asking him to bring anything contructive to this thread, makes about as much sense as putting a steering wheel on a train. As you were....
:D :D :coffeycup

[Froggystyle]

Wes, if I may be so bold, this chap Elvis, from the profile I have been able to produce on him from the contributions to this and other threads alone, lead me to believe he couldnt find his way out of a wet paper bag. Asking him to bring anything contructive to this thread, makes about as much sense as putting a steering wheel on a train. As you were....
:D :D :coffeycup
Well, to be honest I wasn't holding my breath for a revelation...
Good morning everyone. Shot #3 last night and are skincoating it now. This should be really pretty. For anyone who cares, here is some pics of #2 out of the mold... The bottom is a bad photochop of the top on the bottom for conceptual purposes. We won't bond it for a little while yet.
http://www.highperformancecars.com/froggystyle/%232_hull.jpg
And yeah... this is Spam...

[riverracerx]

where are the done pics of boat 1 and 2 on the trailer? And the interior shots?
Did I miss them, or are they still secret? :confused:

[Froggystyle]

where are the done pics of boat 1 and 2 on the trailer? And the interior shots?
Did I miss them, or are they still secret? :confused:
That is #2 right there. #1 has been done and pulled apart a hundred times now. The interior wasn't up to what I wanted... either of the first two times so we are hoping that third time is a charm. The ramp is going in today also, so we have that to look forward to also.
Pics, once complete will be forthcoming.
Thanks for the interest...