hull construction method - resin infusion

[BoaterX]

I was reading about Trident hull construction method (http://www.tridentboats.com/trident_boats_gallery/d/312-2/The+first+boat+begins+infusion.JPG) and it seems they are the only ones in the socal custom boat industry who are CURRENTLY using these methods. There's HUGE benefits like stronger hulls and 50% less weight....
How long before all the other manufacturers hop on the resin-infusion waggon and it becomes the standard? It seems the gains are significant and cannot be ignored. I am sure thru-bolted was a new concept at one time and now it's a standard.
Will hand-laid hulls become a thing of the past and be considered poor construction? I have heard some of the big names are looking into this method. I mean who wouldn't want their boat weight 50% less.
Here's one mans review of resin-infusion construction. (http://www.parkislemarine.com/pdf/infusion.pdf)
Hmmmm...this is really interesting. Although this process is not new, its benefits sound like they may shape the industry.

[upsman105]

I think I was just forced to read a commercial.. :p :) :)

[BoaterX]

UPSMAN, No commercial here!
There's cheerleaders for every boat brand and they always knock the other builders. From what I've seen in these forums, most (NOT ALL) Ultra, DCB, Cobra and Eliminator owners are notorious for knocking other brands with NO REAL data to back it up. Although not new, this construction method was brought to the socal boating industry by a new company. It's gains can't be ignored and I am sure many of the market leaders will hop on board as copy cats . I start to ask myself why the big names, who are supposed to be the best built boats had to see a new builder start this first. It makes you ask how much innovation is REALLY going at the big name shops. For the prices you pay for their products, that shiz should be cutting edge, not followers.
Just my $.02

[phebus]

The boating industry is an "old school" industry, so I guarntee you, change will be slow, and will be more of a evolution than change. The big boys will eventually make the change, but the smaller shops will just fade away, to be replaced with new shops that do have the technology.

[Dave C]

this has got drama written all over it. :crossx: :D LOL keep up the good work! YOu should try posting this in Cat & Tunnels & Rhinos.
but in all seriousness I think cost has something to do with it. . But then again I'm not even a beginner on the "process".
I was reading about Trident hull construction method (http://www.tridentboats.com/trident_boats_gallery/d/312-2/The+first+boat+begins+infusion.JPG) and it seems they are the only ones in the socal custom boat industry who are CURRENTLY using these methods. There's HUGE benefits like stronger hulls and 50% less weight....
How long before all the other manufacturers hop on the resin-infusion waggon and it becomes the standard? It seems the gains are significant and cannot be ignored. I am sure thru-bolted was a new concept at one time and now it's a standard.
Will hand-laid hulls become a thing of the past and be considered poor construction? I have heard some of the big names are looking into this method. I mean who wouldn't want their boat weight 50% less.
Here's one mans review of resin-infusion construction. (http://www.parkislemarine.com/pdf/infusion.pdf)
Hmmmm...this is really interesting. Although this process is not new, its benefits sound like they may shape the industry.

[dicudmore]

I was reading about Trident hull construction method (http://www.tridentboats.com/trident_boats_gallery/d/312-2/The+first+boat+begins+infusion.JPG) and it seems they are the only ones in the socal custom boat industry who are CURRENTLY using these methods. There's HUGE benefits like stronger hulls and 50% less weight....
How long before all the other manufacturers hop on the resin-infusion waggon and it becomes the standard? It seems the gains are significant and cannot be ignored. I am sure thru-bolted was a new concept at one time and now it's a standard.
Will hand-laid hulls become a thing of the past and be considered poor construction? I have heard some of the big names are looking into this method. I mean who wouldn't want their boat weight 50% less.
Here's one mans review of resin-infusion construction. (http://www.parkislemarine.com/pdf/infusion.pdf)
Hmmmm...this is really interesting. Although this process is not new, its benefits sound like they may shape the industry.
Wes is doing some very cool things down there...I've met him and spent a few minutes on the boat, its a nice piece :cool:
I don't really consider myself a basher or a cheer-leader (maybe I'm wrong??)
For the boating I do, I personally subscribe to the theory that heavier is better...Weight contributes to stability :wink: Certainly a lighter hull will be faster and have some advantages in that area but on a rough afternoon I'm happy to have some weight underneath me

[Havasu_Dreamin]

I beleive the recent ad from E-Ticket in HB or Powerboat also says that they are using the infusion process as well.

[ChumpChange]

The boating industry is an "old school" industry, so I guarntee you, change will be slow, and will be more of a evolution than change.
Evolution or Revolution?

[Froggystyle]

Thanks for noticing!
We chose resin infusion because I am new. I didn't have a shop already running and producing parts with the old method, so I didn't have a base of income to have to interrupt and try to switch methods.
Additionally, labor that is well versed in wet-lamination is in my opinion very poorly suited to dry lamination. The methods are completely different, as is the mentality and attention to detail. You can't "fix" a problem very easily, and you won't know you have one until you pop it.
There was a lot of risk, and we did what we could to mitigate it, but still have had our challenges.
Cost is certainly a factor when starting up, but it all balances out during construction because even though the materials are a lot more expensive, the infusion materials you consume are expensive and the mold work required to do it properly is a big setup cost... I save over 2,000 pounds of materials per boat. Most fiberglass commodity material is sold by the pound, so do the math.
Of course Balsa as a core is about .60 a foot, while our CoreCell is $8 a foot... but with two less drums of resin in every boat, that makes up for it.
To give you an idea of how much resin you save by switching to infusion, our entire boat has less than 55 gallons in it.
We will certainly force a change. The process is out there now for everyone to see, and discerning consumers will demand it. One thing for sure is that if ANY research is done by the buyers, "balsa" will be put in the same category as "wood" at last. It is cheap, but it is a terrible core material for our industry with so many great ones available. The better manufacturers will start the learning curve earlier, eat a few parts, learn from the mistakes, hire new people to do the job and charge more money for a better product. As has been said, the smaller shops will no longer be on a level playing field, and will be left in about the same position that a manual-only machine shop is in today.
I have a ton of research done on the topic, so if anyone would like specific articles sent to them... drop me an e-mail.

[Froggystyle]

I beleive the recent ad from E-Ticket in HB or Powerboat also says that they are using the infusion process as well.
Not yet... but Larry is sure trying.
As I said, this process has a lot of challenges, and is not to be taken on lightly or in my opinion by a crew trained for wet lamination.

[Froggystyle]

For the boating I do, I personally subscribe to the theory that heavier is better...Weight contributes to stability :wink: Certainly a lighter hull will be faster and have some advantages in that area but on a rough afternoon I'm happy to have some weight underneath me
Actually, your boat 2,000 pounds lighter would handle chop significantly better. Same design but lighter will work way better every time.
Trouble is, until recently, lighter with a standard FRP layup meant flimsy, which doesn't help at all. Flexing, creaking and cracking all are real bad things in big water.
If you can build it light and stiff (thick core, less resin, better internal structure and design) than you will always better the heavier boats in the same chop.
Check out the layup on a race boat. Nothing handles chop better, at much faster speeds. They hit waves like they aren't there, because they have less boat in the water to be affected by the chop.
We draft about 2" when up on plane. You just don't feel chop.

[phebus]

It takes an open mind to accept the change, and for the most part, the boating industry is close minded.

[Phat Matt]

I beleive the recent ad from E-Ticket in HB or Powerboat also says that they are using the infusion process as well.
He has all the equipment and they are reorganizing the shop as we speak. It won't be long though.

[Dave C]

Wes,
is your process the same as vacumm bagging used by Skater, etc. etc.??

[Froggystyle]

It takes an open mind to accept the change, and for the most part, the boating industry is close minded.
And making money. Why mess with a good thing?
You notice that it was an outsider who brought it... NOBODY in the industry would take the reigns, because they didn't need to. There was no catalyst. With a nice level playing field where the only differences are in hull style, gelcoat quality and rigging competency, some manufacturers rose to the top based on time in the business, volume, perceived rigging quality, and even in some cases just different billet parts. Unimaginably to me, the notion that a heavier boat is a selling point has been beat home to everyone with such vengeance that it is going to take obvious indisputable proof to show how untrue it really is. Same thing with cars, planes or motorcycles. Nowhere does increased weight help anything at all. (The only exception is the ride quality increase by putting a load on a 1 ton truck. They tend to be rough without a load... but different animal altogether. It certainly takes longer to stop, longer to accellerate and doesn't handle as well with the load in the bed...)
I have been waiting for a long time for these boats to go walk the walk... I certainly have been talking the talk... But, this is our summer.
See you on the river.

[Froggystyle]

Wes,
is your process the same as vacumm bagging used by Skater, etc. etc.??
No, in fact I spoke to Peter Hledin earlier this year and he wants to come by and see if he can figure out how I was able to make it work and he wasn't.
Peter loves infusion, he is just finding it very difficult to incorporate into his build process. He builds a lot of stuff one-off and without a mold. With a closed mold process like resin infusion... you need an air-tight mold for starters.
As a matter of fact, a lot of companies advertising "vacuum bagging" to remove excess resin are only halfway being truthful. Vacuum bags take hours to set up and make a good seal. Resin takes 40 minutes to harden... do the math.

[Froggystyle]

He has all the equipment and they are reorganizing the shop as we speak. It won't be long though.
I talked to him a couple of weeks back, and that seems to be the case. Like I said, there are lots of challenges, and for us it was an expensive and steep learning curve.
And, here we are two years later and still learning quite a bit about it every day.

[Magic34]

We draft about 2" when up on plane. You just don't feel chop.
Damn. We will see Tridents at Havasu and mudpuddles after a rain storm. :crossx:

[SummitKarl]

one question Wes,
Whats the yield percentage of Resin Infusion, from what I have read and hear it's about a 50/50 crap shoot, if a flaw or pin hole of some sort creeps in then it's start over, or so I am told. any truth to this?

[Froggystyle]

one question Wes,
Whats the yield percentage of Resin Infusion, from what I have read and hear it's about a 50/50 crap shoot, if a flaw or pin hole of some sort creeps in then it's start over, or so I am told. any truth to this?
To a degree you are correct. If you are Johnny on the damn spot, and know what you are looking for though you can catch it, seal it, rectify the damage while still infusing and move on.
I am knocking on wood here, but we haven't lost any parts yet. We are very, very, very careful though, and both Craig and I, combined with our world-class experts (a couple mentioned in that article BTW...) have kept a very close eye on everything. I have over 2000 pictures of time-lapse high quality photography of our three boat infusions that has yielded some very telling trends that we have been able to correct for the next one that we didn't even realize (or were too busy fixing leaks to catch) were occurring during the shots. Dry areas, poorly planned exits and entrances for the resin, etc...
So, to answer your question, we have successfully infused over 25 individual pieces now. Four in the last two weeks. We had one near-failure that we recovered from... but it nearly cost us a part. Quick thinking and training saved it.
After reading this thread, I am thinking about holding an infusion demonstration for anyone who is interested. We have a couple of our swimsteps to shoot (8.6 feet wide, 28" deep, 1.5" thick... 22 pounds!) that I don't mind showing the setup for. If anyone is interested, drop me a line.
BTW, that article that Boater X posted is awesome reading. It is well written and describes in better detail than I ever have why I chose infusion.

[Froggystyle]

Damn. We will see Tridents at Havasu and mudpuddles after a rain storm. :crossx:
It still drafts 10" at rest... so no mud puddles just yet...
But I am not done lightening it up either!

[RiverDave]

Actually, your boat 2,000 pounds lighter would handle chop significantly better. Same design but lighter will work way better every time.
Trouble is, until recently, lighter with a standard FRP layup meant flimsy, which doesn't help at all. Flexing, creaking and cracking all are real bad things in big water.
If you can build it light and stiff (thick core, less resin, better internal structure and design) than you will always better the heavier boats in the same chop.
Check out the layup on a race boat. Nothing handles chop better, at much faster speeds. They hit waves like they aren't there, because they have less boat in the water to be affected by the chop.
We draft about 2" when up on plane. You just don't feel chop.
I don't necesarrily agree with all this.. I think there are occasions that a heavier boat is indeed "better" but that's more my small/heavy boat = better ride in the rough mentallity.. I will agree with a point Wes made in a debate between him and I that I'd rather have a lighter/stronger hull and weigh it down with something other then fiberglass (ballast tanks etc..) then have something heavy that you could never lighten up.
RD

[Dave C]

cool,
what is the net result between the two methods (without explain the differences)... the "bottom line", so to speak.
No, in fact I spoke to Peter Hledin earlier this year and he wants to come by and see if he can figure out how I was able to make it work and he wasn't.
Peter loves infusion, he is just finding it very difficult to incorporate into his build process. He builds a lot of stuff one-off and without a mold. With a closed mold process like resin infusion... you need an air-tight mold for starters.
As a matter of fact, a lot of companies advertising "vacuum bagging" to remove excess resin are only halfway being truthful. Vacuum bags take hours to set up and make a good seal. Resin takes 40 minutes to harden... do the math.

[Froggystyle]

cool,
what is the net result between the two methods (without explain the differences)... the "bottom line", so to speak.
Infusion is by far the better method. It de-bulks completely, allows much tighter concentrations of fiber and way less resin. It presses the core material into shape, and overall makes a tighter, stronger composite construction.
What Peter is doing is laying up with epoxy (itself inherently stronger than vinyl-ester in some ways) for longer cure times. He then vacuum bags the system on both sides to de-bulk the laminates and press out any excess epoxy. After that, the part is put into an autoclave (big oven) and brought up to 220 degrees or so to cure the epoxy. It is a great method that is made possible by the long working time of the uncured epoxy, something not possible with vinyl-ester resin. It takes hours to do a proper layup, and would cure before you were able to get a bag on there and de-bulk it or squeeze it. The end result of Peter's system is a heavier but still strong process. The epoxy (mandated by the working time) is what makes it possible. Beware of anyone "vacuum bagging" without epoxy. More likely than not, they are just vacuuming in the core to hold it in place, with a hand-laminated outer and inner fiberglass structure.
The infusion is a great method to produce the same part over and over again. We can get good at it, dial in the process and go from there. It is one of the main reasons why we are offering one model. I can't imagine having to adapt this to an entire line of boats currently set up for wet lamination.

[Sleek-Jet]

As a matter of fact, a lot of companies advertising "vacuum bagging" to remove excess resin are only halfway being truthful. Vacuum bags take hours to set up and make a good seal. Resin takes 40 minutes to harden... do the math.
I always thought the reason for vacuum bagging was to get more resin into the piece and more air out (i.e. you end up with less voids and a stronger finished piece)... wouldn't that mean you would end up using more resin compared to a standard lay up???
The infusion process is just to slick... the only thing neater that I have seen is the kevlar machines that some of the aerospace manufacturers use to weave entire fuselages and what not.

[Froggystyle]

I always thought the reason for vacuum bagging was to get more resin into the piece and more air out (i.e. you end up with less voids and a stronger finished piece)... wouldn't that mean you would end up using more resin compared to a standard lay up???
Vacuum bagging is primarily for "de-bulking" the laminates. By squeezing the laminates with a bag, you squeeze out air bubbles, force resin into the voids and expel gross excess resin at the same time. The problem is, the resin has to be fluid for this to happen. Even with inhibitors and such, our longest time to gel with vinyl-ester resin at 1%.. the very lowest amount of catalyzation that is safe (catalyst forms a very essential part of the resin strength) is around 190 minutes hour at 70 degrees. Add some heat to the equation and the times reduce drastically... at 90 degrees for example (Inland empire/Havasu boatbuilders...) the longest gel time is 59 minutes. You really need 1.5% for strength though (we won't drop below it...) so at 70 degrees you have 92 minutes till gel, at 90 you have 43. At 100, you have 28. Plus, just before it gels, the resin is non-manipulatable. I can tell you from personal experience, that boats are not built in one shot. You lay on one layer and work two sides, from one end to the other. By the time you finish laying up one side, the stuff you started on is hard, and the stuff you are finishing up is kicking off. There is no time for a bag in this equation. Then you put on the second layer... same deal. Start from the cured side and move forward. Repeat ten times. Are they bagging in between each layer?
The answer is no. They lay up by hand all of the outer layers, put some mat and core in place and bag that and then lay up the inner layers. All the bag is for is to press the core in place. BTW... I can't think of another way to do that properly. Anyone coring and NOT using a bag should be steered away from. Talk about heavy on the voids...
The real bummer is that as a consumer you have no way to check this stuff out. Most are carpeted, covered and painted immediately after popping... probably to prevent inspection. It is one of the reasons we leave our laminates uncoated where image permits throughout the boat. That way we can see and inspect for failures during the life of the boat.
The infusion process is just too slick... the only thing neater that I have seen is the kevlar machines that some of the aerospace manufacturers use to weave entire fuselages and what not.
There is always a bigger fish, and it is no mystery why aerospace leads the charge. But airplanes cost a lot more than boats, so the expense can be warranted.
You would love the shop. You should come down and check it out.

[ViB]

Hi Wes,
sounds like you really did your research! I'm impressed, this is one of the more fascinating threads on here. Hopefully one of these days I'll get a chance to visit your shop, meet you, and learn something.
Stuart

[BoaterX]

For the boating I do, I personally subscribe to the theory that heavier is better...Weight contributes to stability :wink: Certainly a lighter hull will be faster and have some advantages in that area but on a rough afternoon I'm happy to have some weight underneath me
I think resin infusion is saweet and WILL shape the industry, but I am going to play devils advocate here...I dunno how much weight is a factor with chop (I thought hull design took care of that) and all data points to the fact that the hull is stronger using this method......HOWEVER.....the first thing that comes to mind are those boat racing out takes we've all seen playing at the local bar, where the boat gets air and flips? Is there any research or testing that says what a stable boat weight is? If it even exists..?

[Keith E. Sayre]

While the resin infusion is certainly the "high tech" way to do things, and there are weight and strength benefits, I think the next generation of boats
will be built with a modified pre impregnated laminate that you cook. I could
be wrong, but that's the way that we hear that the industry will one day go.
But that means ovens and even more high tech. it would be nice if the
current infusion process wasn't so expensive for the benefits derived.
Maybe Wes can figure a way to make it more user friendly and affordable.
Boater X--one thing that may be clarified about your thoughts that boats
could be 50% lighter--I'm thinking 30% to 40% of the HULL weight may be
realistic not 50% of the boat weight. For example, our 28' deckboat weighs
about 4800lbs empty, but fully rigged. If I subtract the approx weight of
the drive package, batteries, upholstery, swimsteps, bimini top, and all of
the doors that are solid--just on a piece of scratch paper I get 2600 lbs
so that means our boat is about 2200 lbs? We think infusion would save us about 600 maybe of the 2200 lbs. But then our boat is a tank.
I rode in Froggys trident and it seemed as stout as necessary for our type of boating. No clue what it weighs but it seemed solid. I know that our boats don't break and I'll bet his homework is accurate and that his won't break.
It comes to--will people spend $XXX for about 600 lbs of savings. We just did a boat with a Kevlar bottom and a non-wood subfloor, cost us $12,000 and saved about 400 lbs. That's 2 beer drinking brother in laws!
Keep up the good work Wes, it'll certainly help the industry improve.
Keith Sayre
Conquest Boats