View Full Version : LOOK:HI PERF MARINE ENGINES Poll
I wanted to start a thread that will open up a great topic: I am looking for the CUSTOMERS view on Expected Reliability for Hi Performance Marine Motors between 700 HP and 1000 HP. Anyone feel free to give their opinion(OH there will be no shortage of opinions/remarks, I am sure). I would like to know in general:
What does reliability mean to you?
How long should one of these motors go between rebuilds?
We are talking about custom engines, preferably EFI, Blown or Unblown, it doesnt matter. To kill the curiosity, the reason for this is simple, " I just want to hear a whole bunch of sincere opinions on this topic from potental customers and Hot Boaters".(an occasional joke is totally acceptable, but no slamming or finger pointing at builders you dont like please, that would not be productive). I encourage lurkers to come out too.............So lets hear them...................Thanks Gary
riverbound
11-05-2005, 03:08 PM
Depending on set up. I would expect to see anywhere from 150 hours to 200 on a properly maintained motor....I am tlaking a motor that is NOT set up on kill. But maybe somehting that has been detuned to run in the power range.
PHOTOGLOU
11-05-2005, 03:09 PM
Longer than 3 hours............ in the range of 100 hours between rebuilds I would feel I got my monies worth... adjust valves every 40 to 50 hours
Sleek-Jet
11-05-2005, 03:13 PM
For the kind of money I would be spending, I would expect at least 200 hours of nothing more than oil changes and routine maint. on a motor that isn't run at the stops all day.
SummitKarl
11-05-2005, 03:13 PM
I will stick with 5000+ proven hours and 400hp thankyou!!!!
welk2party
11-05-2005, 03:17 PM
I would be happy to have a motor that will go 150 to 200 hours before rebuilding. Proper maintenance to get it there of course. I would not necessarily look for a warranty either. Rather, I would want to work with a builder that stands behind their work and makes good on problems regardless of fault. In other words, if the builder and the customer agreed on a motor to perform a certain way for a certain time (of course this is difficult to define) and it falls well short, then it would be great to call the builder and work to a fair solution.
Red Horse
11-05-2005, 03:31 PM
150-200 hours ARE you kidding me. A good marine engine should last more than 2 years!!
From what I understand 800-1200 hours for a stock maintained Mercruiser is good. A motor TWICE that cost should last at least 500 hours!!! Maybe it is because yall run the piss out of them everywhere you go?? I would rather throttle back to about 40 than run 65 everywhere and not rebuild a motor all the damn time.
If you spend 25000 on a motor and it only lasts 200 hours, then that is 125 bucks an hours. I dont think so.
Min 500 hours. And honestly if one lasted 500 on the average, I would go with stock power in a heartbeat. I want to go boating, not rebuilding.
What does the TPI 600 go for and how many hours typically does it go before it needs a rebuild. By needing a rebuild, I dont mean lossing a few ponies from use. I mean valve guides, smoking, 20-25% loss of power. That type of rebuild. I understand that some here will rebuild at the slightest loss of power, rpm or speed. I dont see much value in that. But that is just me.
BADBLOWN572
11-05-2005, 03:37 PM
For high performance motors (800+ H.P.) I would say that 100 hours would be a good amount of time before they need to be leaked down and adjusted. I would say 200 hours for a total rebuild.
It has been my experience that this can happen if the builder over builds the motor and under drives it for reliability.
PHOTOGLOU
11-05-2005, 03:49 PM
I'm getting sick...... 200 hours for a complete rebuild.....
Kachina26
11-05-2005, 03:52 PM
700HP and under naturally aspirated, I would like to see 400 hours before having to freshen up the top end, and considerably more until major work. As far as reliability, I don't want to be on the backside of a tow rope unless I forget to gas up :D I am pretty good to my equipment and want the same from it. I don't know if I'm being realistic or not. That's why I'm out researching these things.
As far as big power, if you want to play, you've got to pay. Some of these big racing motors are, in my uneducated opinion just that, racing motors. Intended to give big power for short periods of time. I wouldn't expect more than 100 hours if that, before having to tear down and inspect.
So, am I being realistic?
This is great feedback and exactly what I was looking for. I would really like to hear feedback on the "reliability" aspect though. When a customer says, "I am looking for a reliable high HP engine", what are the different opinions on that reliability, I am so curious because, some guys say, " I just dont want it to blow up and leave me stranded", and other guys say, "I want 800+ hp and I never expect one little hickup, idling problem, or anything different than my current HP525". I am looking for feedback on this too.............this is great.
700HP and under naturally aspirated, I would like to see 400 hours before having to freshen up the top end, and considerably more until major work.
As far as big power, if you want to play, you've got to pay. Some of these big racing motors are, in my uneducated opinion just that, racing motors. Intended to give big power for short periods of time. I wouldn't expect more than 100 hours if that, before having to tear down and inspect.
So, am I being realistic?
I think you are :)
I would really like to hear feedback on the "reliability" aspect though. When a customer says, "I am looking for a reliable high HP engine", what are the different opinions on that reliability, I am so curious because, some guys say, " I just dont want it to blow up and leave me stranded", and other guys say, "I want 800+ hp and I never expect one little hickup, idling problem, or anything different than my current HP525". I am looking for feedback on this too.............this is great.
I think you need to begin by defining reliability and routine maintenance :)
Daytona100
11-05-2005, 04:03 PM
My Blown motor went about 2.5 seasons of hard use before an exhaust valve head broke off. Destroyed the whole motor. In my opinion when you run hard it wouldnt hurt to teardown and inspect the motor every other season. Dont wait untill it breaks and start blameing everone. :D
700HP and under naturally aspirated, I would like to see 400 hours before having to freshen up the top end, and considerably more until major work. As far as reliability, I don't want to be on the backside of a tow rope unless I forget to gas up :D I am pretty good to my equipment and want the same from it. I don't know if I'm being realistic or not. That's why I'm out researching these things.
As far as big power, if you want to play, you've got to pay. Some of these big racing motors are, in my uneducated opinion just that, racing motors. Intended to give big power for short periods of time. I wouldn't expect more than 100 hours if that, before having to tear down and inspect.
So, am I being realistic?
Yes and No,
IMO,
From what I have seen, even when well maintained, a big cubic inch NA 700 will get about 300 hrs with proper maintenance before you notice a power loss. Most of these things have pretty aggressive valve trains, and require springs at 150 hrs or so. There are a good handfull of guys with motors OVER 600 HP that have 300+ hrs on them, but the guy that buys that kind of motor generally rebuilds or upgrades sooner, from what I have seen. All of this stuff really depends on how you drive. If you run Poker Runs all the time, you will be doing a lot of maintenance, that just goes with it. If you go to the lake and drive normally with a few WOT runs throughout the day, you should see 200+ hrs out of your 1000 hp motor before she loses some power, I think............................................. ........More on Reliability!
Beer-30
11-05-2005, 07:10 PM
Ok. Look at it from a different perspective. Aircraft engines are air-cooled, which is not stable, to say the least. Boat engines are watercooled, and, therefore, have fairly stable temp (especially closed-cooling).
Aircraft engines are under constant load EVEN AT STARTUP, since the prop doesn't have any clutch or trans. After that, they are in the same category, since they never just "coast" - similar to a boat.
Aircraft engines, reciprocating anyway, are generally six-cylinder big-bores. If my turbocharged, 540 cubic inch 6 cyl, aircooled, that used to be 300HP and now has been cammed, ported and polished, and now has 395HP has a rebuild time "suggested" at 2000 hours - there is no reason a 425 horse watercooled factory motor (HO) should need touching before that number.
Now, naturally, as HP increases, the hrs. decrease.
Still, in my opinion, if my $55K+ 1000-1200HP precision built - all the best parts - motor went less than 4-500 hours: I WOULD BE UPSET!!
SHAKEN Not Stirred
11-05-2005, 08:12 PM
Well....
I expect to.....
Run to 200 hrs....Then replace the entire valvetrain....
Run to 400 hrs....Then re-build......
I am currently at 120 hrs and just finished my second season on this motor....
I also change my oil every 20 hrs.....
http://www2.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/1780MVC-003F.JPG
Later,
CJG
:cool:
Kachina26
11-05-2005, 09:04 PM
Phebus pretty much said it all, I want it to last about as long as the builder predicts for the particular configuration,(give or take). And, I don't want to end up on the wrong end of a tow rope more than once for the same problem. (I'd rather not ever be on the wrong end of that rope, but hey, life happens).
Charley
11-05-2005, 10:30 PM
I hope and I pray that Ilmors Ability,Testing, Research and development on the race track will prove to raise the bar on 600+ HP marine engine options..
Well see
PHOTOGLOU
11-05-2005, 11:57 PM
GT,
If you knew someone with a boat with HIGH HP motors and at 130 hours you suggested a valve train rebuild, you rebuilt it, and then 3 motors let go within approx 8 hours would you warranty it????? would you have someone else do it letting the responsibility lie on the new builder or tell them it was there fault????
what third party avenues would you hope that both parties could come to????
PHOTOGLOU
11-06-2005, 12:12 AM
GT,
If you knew someone with a boat with HIGH HP motors and at 130 hours you suggested a valve train rebuild, you rebuilt it, and then 3 motors let go within approx 8 hours would you warranty it????? would you have someone else do it letting the responsibility lie on the new builder or tell them it was there fault????
what third party avenues would you hope that both parties could come to????
why did this post on the # 20 spot
Newcastle
11-06-2005, 02:08 AM
GT,
coming from a guy that's owned a couple jets (mostly stock power) but still doesn't know much about engines, reliability was one of my main concerns when picking an engine package with this new boat. I most definitely don't want to be the guy wrenching on it while floating dead. I went with a 496HO over a custom engine for that reason. I consider reliable to be what RedHorse said. Turnkey and mostly worry-free. I was surprised to find that average manufacturers give only a year warranty. Surprising when cars average 3 years and a helluvalot more hours/miles....all this from a guy that doesn't know much. :hammer2:
Newcastle
11-06-2005, 02:11 AM
Post 22 should've been at the bottom...somethin's messed up here
GT,
If you knew someone with a boat with HIGH HP motors and at 130 hours you suggested a valve train rebuild, you rebuilt it, and then 3 motors let go within approx 8 hours would you warranty it????? would you have someone else do it letting the responsibility lie on the new builder or tell them it was there fault????
what third party avenues would you hope that both parties could come to????
Jay,
I have read about your situation with your motors. The whole situation is unfortunate. I would rather not comment on any of it, until you get it resolved. Good luck with it.
What the heck is going on with "post placement". I have to read through the whole post to find the most recent replies?
Havasu Hangin'
11-06-2005, 06:38 AM
Reliable means to me................................................ .........????
Reliability to me is I get to turn the key and go when it comes time to boat period.
I agree.
Reliability = consistancy
There's nothing like trying to get through the channel with a pair of surging blower motors and big props... :supp:
blownrat
11-06-2005, 07:10 AM
me 300 to 400 hrs but not without maintance, my own experance i would love to get 100 hrs and one season. local custom builder, compete carbs to pan, ran 25 hrs, so sorry, its a custom.
Here is a slightly different take on motors.
My boat weigt is about 1600 lbs. ready to run.
427, 13.5:1, alum. head, full roller. With a decent cam, .680 lift. Top rpm his season was 7300. Hoping to touch 8k with proper set up.
My v-drive is a circle boat so I will run WOT for 1/2 mile runs, turn & go back. Or I hve run as fast as possible across lakes. Not able to hold it wide open due to water, but pretty much wide open to 3/4 for a few miles.
I feel their is a difference between failure & wear. I will expect to eat up springs and valve guides fairly quickly. I do not have an hour meter but essentialy two seasons. I expect the bottom end to last 4 seasons.
I run the valves everytime out. And do a general look over to see if the motor is telling of something wrong. THis I would classify as "wear".
Now failure on the other hand is the variable. This is where I could not imagine being a perormace marine engine builder & try to warrant something. I would not be shocked to have a major failure the first time out. Dissapointed yes, shocked no. I feel I run my junk pretty dam hard & things sometime just happen. If something was set up wrong, my builder will make it right. If it just happened it is my deal.
To sum this rambling up. I expect a motor to wear. And not fail in the first 10 hours. With my deal if I make it past the first day & all looks good, that means the motor builder did an excellent job & I should be good to go.
MACHINEHEAD
11-06-2005, 09:31 AM
Had a bunch to say yesterday, Phebus and Holymoly get it. Im goin to save this stuff to show my customers, good idea GT
MACHINEHEAD
11-06-2005, 09:35 AM
board goin wacko read it all again!!!
77charger
11-06-2005, 09:42 AM
IMO if you want to go fast you have to pay to play PERIOD.700hp and up is a very good number now look at it this way a drag racer rebuilds or gos thru engines often yes they run hard probably 6k and up for 10 seconds at a time but a boat is run at 5k all day long.Not hard to determine it wont last forever.
Higher the hp the more to maintain.Valve springs dont are super wonders they too have to be replaced often too.Somethink that because they pay alot from an enigne builder of their choice that their engine is now bulletproof.LOL.
If you want reliabilty stay under 500 hp and live with it.
Kilrtoy
11-06-2005, 01:04 PM
DONT TRUST ANY OF THEM,
That is why I have outboards....
phebus
11-06-2005, 01:06 PM
I think rather than me expecting a certain number of hours out of a motor, I should be told at the time of purchase, what I should be able to expect out of the motor.
If a builder told me I should be able to get x hours of normal use out of said motor, I would expect that. I would have no one to blame if the engine met the builders expectations, or came close, as long as I didn't abuse it and kept to the guidelines set by the manufacturer.
I think the manufacturer is responsible for building a motor that is detuned enough, and the rev limiter is set low enough that it should hold up, if the motor is a semi-custom, production (even though limited) spec'd out motor, rather than a one off racing engine.
Bottom line is that all I would expect, is honesty from the engine builder.
YeLLowBoaT
11-06-2005, 01:17 PM
I would think 200-250 range would about ight b4 you would need to do some head work. Spings, maybe replace part of the valve train. I would say 400 hrs on the bottom. This is assuming your not using things like light wieght AL rods, those realy light wieght cranks that have almost no counter wieght to get the RPMs up or other exotic parts. Thats if your a 50-75% throtle guy(like me). if your one of those 90-100% guy then 1/3- 1/2 of that time.
revndave
11-06-2005, 01:34 PM
I would like a motor to last a season. :D Dougans Racing Engines built the new bullet.We'll see if it last next season.Reliabilty vs HP??I take HP.Set it up for KILL :crossx: :crossx:
I think you need to begin by defining reliability and routine maintenance :)
ROZ, YOUR KILLING ME!LOL,
Thats what I want you guys to define...........While the site was down I got a bunch of great e-mails answering the questions, but still, no one is really addressing what they think reliability is..............................
I have been contemplating getting at 600+ HP motor, maybe a 540, and was curious of how long it would last being either EFI or NA. I know my 496HO should last 400-500 hours but I would definitely want a 600HP motor to last me 300 hours. Is this unreasonable?
Red Horse
11-06-2005, 02:59 PM
Starting and getting me home on a very regular basis. No surprises. When I turn the key and if my home work has been done the thing should fire up, let me have a wrenchless weekend and get me and my family home safely. DOnt need to be on Mead, have the wind blow up, waves get big and me have to worry about having a dead engine in the middle of nowhere.
phebus
11-06-2005, 03:02 PM
Again, I think reliability should me defined by the engine builder. I think when an engine builder specs out an engine, he should be able to tell the consumer what he should be able to expect out of the motor. He should also outline what type of maintenance needs to be performed during that period.
When an engine meets the stated expectations of the engine builder, that is reliability.
phebus
11-06-2005, 03:07 PM
Also, what is your definition of a custom engine? If company T builds a 600hp, or a 800hp that is part of their engine line-up, and are built to pre set specs, is that considered custom? Just because it's not a Mercury, but is an engine builders offering, I don't think makes it custom. I would consider it more limited production.
Why don't you in the mystery, and tell us what reliability is.
Nice try,
Phebus, you are on the money regarding the builder. This is my point, I thought it would be great to see what the consumer thinks is reliable when they request a reliable engine? Red Horse, you get the trophy so far, I like your definition, mine would not be much different.
Also, what is your definition of a custom engine? If company T builds a 600hp, or a 800hp that is part of their engine line-up, and are built to pre set specs, is that considered custom? Just because it's not a Mercury, but is an engine builders offering, I don't think makes it custom. I would consider it more limited production.
Great Point. I would consider "custom", anything above 700 HP built one at a time, with the engine builder's name on the engine.
How about answering this:
Reliable means to me................................................ .........????
phebus
11-06-2005, 03:24 PM
Well then, if you are pushing the limits in terms of horsepower, there is no such thing as reliability. The consumer should understand that when one pushes the envelope, there are no guarntees, unless it is a manufacturing defect.
Speed comes at a risk.
paradigm shift
11-06-2005, 03:33 PM
Been following this thread as it is of interest I think to all. Reliability to me is I get to turn the key and go when it comes time to boat period. Now what you do in between boating (maintenence) to me all depends on how much HP and wether you are set on KILL as I have read. Time between rebuilds just like drive life with a bravo all depends on how hard and how long you hold the throttle down. When I ran a blown motor in a 20' mini day v-drive you could not hold the throttle down long enough to really wear it down. Same motor in a 29' deep-vee is a whole different equation. 800hp in the old v-drive would last many years compared to the 29' deep-vee offshore. Just some more food for thought.
I think with 700hp I would be looking at 250 to 300 hrs before pulling the heads and going in to the top end using the best springs and not too much cam. I would think 700hp blown would be easier on valve train than 700hp naturally aspirated because of the cam you would need to run. Bottom ends have always looked good but since I do my own assembly I usually bearing and ring at the same time. Valve train issues have been weak link for me.
Reliable means to me......
500 hours with routine maintenance that does not require the motor to be pulled nor any thing else like heads, intake, and etc. AND 1000 HP that runs on 91. I know it can be done, especially with me as the owner.
I got 300 hours out of my blown 350 chevy that made 750 HP with a roots blower and 9.5:1 compression and no intercooler. I did run VP 112 fuel in it. The heads were what failed due to oxidation, but luckily, just before the roller lifters did. I changed the oil every 10 - 12 hours. It was driven nearly every weekend. But, I never flat footed the thing (flatty v-drive) for more than 10 seconds. It spent the majority of its hours in the 2,500 - 3,000 RPM range even though it had a redline of 7,500. I know I could have gotten 500+ hours easily out of that motor with a few mods like a contained cooling system, dry sump oil system, and perhaps dual oil filters with no pressure by-pass. And the coup de gras would have been intercooler with non-roots blower and lower compression would have made for incredible longevity.
But, I have ridden with several boat owners/board members that would have blown up my 350 in probably 1 or 2 trips. So, my expectations are higher for me, but I would never expect any kind of waranty on high HP motors knowing how most people drive.
Also, I am not interested in owning the bigger boats as Paradigm talked about, which is a whole different story. My next boat will be a v-drive tunnel (probably a Cougar 22 MTR) with 1000 HP. That boat will not be nearly as taxing on a motor as the bigger boats.
You guys are the best......................I hope to get a bunch more opinions on this. This should be very educational for builders and consumers both. Thanks......................................
RiverDave
11-06-2005, 04:45 PM
GT, I sent you a PM when the board was down.. I have no idea if you got it or not. Too summarize my opinion on the subject though it's more of an equation then it is a definition..
It's a sliding scale of Price = Quality (As defined by reputation of said builder) + Longevity (meaning reliability and life of the motor)
That being said.. If I went and spent a "relatively" low amount of money with an unknown builder, or a known builder with a bad reputation then sure I'll be dissapointed when it blows up after a couple of trips out.. But it is what it is.
Now if I were to go down to a top tier builder... Let's just say Carson Brummet for example. Well while I'm aware "shit happens" sometimes.. I'd say my "faith" in the power plant would be greatly increased. As well I'm sure he'd be more likely to stand behind his work instead of just brushing it off..
I don't know jack shit about building motors, but I could almost garauntee that I could build a 700 HP motor that would survive a dyno run.. To make it run all day, every day.. Well then I'd head to the experts. I'd keep saving my nickels and dimes until I had exactly what I wanted. (Something similar to Green With Envy's motor that he has for sale.) On top of that, after it was built, I'd hit them up for any and every peace of advice I possibly could to ensure longevity..
Brummet, Banks, Black, etc..
RD
phebus
11-06-2005, 04:54 PM
There are just too many variables outside of the engine builders control when it comes to high performance engines.
How a customer drives their boat, type of fuel/fuel quality, is boat propped right, etc.
A basic stock motor can work within these variables, and many have electronic controls to compensate for these variables, where a high performance motor can't.
I don't see how an engine builder can extend much of a warranty, or consider his motor "reliable", when there are so many variables.
unleashed
11-06-2005, 05:04 PM
I have twin 800hp Teague custom marine motors. Both have lasted over 300 hours before rebuild. 5 lbs of boost 800 hp apiece. Just did a rebuild on both motors this year after running her in numerous poker runs and alot of weekends. So I'd say 300 to 400 hours with regular maintenance.
Deano
Unleashedclothing (http://www.unleashedclothing.com) :devil:
GT, I sent you a PM when the board was down.. I have no idea if you got it or not. Too summarize my opinion on the subject though it's more of an equation then it is a definition..
It's a sliding scale of Price = Quality (As defined by reputation of said builder) + Longevity (meaning reliability and life of the motor)
That being said.. If I went and spent a "relatively" low amount of money with an unknown builder, or a known builder with a bad reputation then sure I'll be dissapointed when it blows up after a couple of trips out.. But it is what it is.
Now if I were to go down to a top tier builder... Let's just say Carson Brummet for example. Well while I'm aware "shit happens" sometimes.. I'd say my "faith" in the power plant would be greatly increased. As well I'm sure he'd be more likely to stand behind his work instead of just brushing it off..
I don't know jack shit about building motors, but I could almost garauntee that I could build a 700 HP motor that would survive a dyno run.. To make it run all day, every day.. Well then I'd head to the experts. I'd keep saving my nickels and dimes until I had exactly what I wanted. (Something similar to Green With Envy's motor that he has for sale.) On top of that, after it was built, I'd hit them up for any and every peace of advice I possibly could to ensure longevity..
Brummet, Banks, Black, etc..
RD
I would like it if my engines lasted as long as my Cutting Edge Marine battery box .... :D ...which is now a collectors item!
RD,
I did not get your e-mail, but your view on the subject is appreciated, along with everyone elses.
Phebus,
You are on the money on every post. The number of variables is pretty unreal, but the consumer still has certain expectations, and as this thread stays alive, I am sure more people will come out and give their input.
With regard to variables, the boat type plays a huge role on how long the motor will live. A big heavy deep V is going to be WAY harder on a motor than a 28 Cat(for example).
The number of variables is pretty unreal, but the consumer still has certain expectations, and as this thread stays alive, I am sure more people will come out and give their input.
With regard to variables, the boat type plays a huge role on how long the motor will live. A big heavy deep V is going to be WAY harder on a motor than a 28 Cat(for example).
Boat sizes and types are definitely a variables, but I would think the consumer is the biggest variable. Also, with the bigger boats being much more stable at speed and with canopies, I can see people running WOT a hell of lot of the time.
Some of the reasons I like the smaller boats, is that you have to be in the right conditions, have more skill, and are inclined to only to bursts of speed (I am talking with HIGH HP Motors...I know guys who run WOT in small boats all the time, but top speed is actually fairly safe as they have 500 HP or lower - but they destroy their motors fast because they run WOT. As Wilkes puts it, when you are in a small boat with a ton of HP, you don't stand on it for more than 10 seconds without one hand on the bible. :D
Boatlesss
11-06-2005, 05:49 PM
There is so much to take into consideration when looking at relative performance and relative life span of an engine.
A small light boat with 800 hp will last far longer than the same engines in a larger heavier boat.
If the engine makes a no b.s. 800 hp, then depending upon the size and weight of the boat and the use or driving style of the nut behind the wheel one can expect different life expectancies. One can expect 200 hrs, but there will need to be a 100 hr service that will need a complete valve job then a rebuild at 200 hrs.
Some people believe in babying their boats and can probably get 500 hrs on the engines. A lot of that time is idling time and low speed low rpm time.
The same boat combination in the hands of someone that actually pushes the boat hard and runs it at high rpm might get 200 hrs if they're lucky.
Using a home built or car engine builder can result in engine life span even less than humanly imaginable.
PHOTOGLOU
11-09-2005, 10:08 PM
RD,
I did not get your e-mail, but your view on the subject is appreciated, along with everyone elses.
Phebus,
You are on the money on every post. The number of variables is pretty unreal, but the consumer still has certain expectations, and as this thread stays alive, I am sure more people will come out and give their input.
With regard to variables, the boat type plays a huge role on how long the motor will live. A big heavy deep V is going to be WAY harder on a motor than a 28 Cat(for example).
I will keep that in mind :(
diggler
11-10-2005, 07:00 AM
I have an 800hp NA engine that was built by DNE. I put only 23 hours on it this last season because i was so busy just dialing it in. Also, boating on the Delta, it's easy to get locked into one bar or another for an extended time.
That said, I bought the engine at a serious expense. I didn't buy it for horsepower or performance, but for reliability. since I needed a new block, pistons, connecting rods, etc... I went for displacement since it would cost the same (555c.i. is what I have).
With my 19foot Ultra Shadow (picklefork), I've been able to graze sub-100mph with this setup. Now here's the surprise that I wasn't expecting.....
Maintenance!!
Every 10 hours, I have my valve lash adjusted. The lash is reported to DNE, and we keep track of any anomalies, (so far so good). I have a solid roller setup for my valve train, and it has to be kept tight. The other problem I have is vibration that tends to back out bolts. I just pulled the engine out (took less than an hour), and I am going to go through everything and re-torque everything. I was told by the builder to expect this.
I guess since this is my first hi-perf engine, I was a little taken aback by the requisite maintenance. however, I have had nothing but great reliablity so far. The engine is set up to run for cruising, and not racing. (In fact Dave Ebber was a little pissed I wasn't going to race this thing at all!) I feel extremely confident at running the engine at 3500-3750 rpms all day without letting off the gas. (Redline is at 6500rpms)
Thanks for letting this hi-perf engine newbie comment!
prosthogod
11-10-2005, 07:41 AM
700HP and under naturally aspirated, I would like to see 400 hours before having to freshen up the top end, and considerably more until major work. As far as reliability, I don't want to be on the backside of a tow rope unless I forget to gas up :D I am pretty good to my equipment and want the same from it. I don't know if I'm being realistic or not. That's why I'm out researching these things.
As far as big power, if you want to play, you've got to pay. Some of these big racing motors are, in my uneducated opinion just that, racing motors. Intended to give big power for short periods of time. I wouldn't expect more than 100 hours if that, before having to tear down and inspect.
So, am I being realistic?
I would agree. I just had my efi 548ci motor built and I would expect 4-500 hrs. (unless I put a blower on it).
little rowe boat
11-10-2005, 08:19 AM
I would like a Hi performance engine to last as long as a stock merc. engine out of the box. I've known guys to get a 1000 hrs out of some.
framer1
11-10-2005, 09:16 AM
Paid alot of money for Teague 800, I hope to get at least 200 plus hours without rebuild. Maintenance every 30 hrs. I'm keeping my fingers crossed :cool:
cougarcat
11-10-2005, 09:24 AM
DONT TRUST ANY OF THEM,
That is why I have outboards....
What he said......
Why does it take a 850 hp car motor to equal the performance of my 300's?
CC
wsuwrhr
09-10-2006, 02:17 PM
Aircraft engines, reciprocating anyway, are generally six-cylinder big-bores. If my turbocharged, 540 cubic inch 6 cyl, aircooled, that used to be 300HP and now has been cammed, ported and polished, and now has 395HP has a rebuild time "suggested" at 2000 hours - there is no reason a 425 horse watercooled factory motor (HO) should need touching before that number.
Now, naturally, as HP increases, the hrs. decrease.
Still, in my opinion, if my $55K+ 1000-1200HP precision built - all the best parts - motor went less than 4-500 hours: I WOULD BE UPSET!!
6 CYL big bore short stroke LONG rod motors that generally run 3000 RPMs and under.
Marine engines, under constant load just as an aircraft engine is, and are generally NEVER under 3000 RPMS when the boat is underway.
Brian
Sleek-Jet
09-10-2006, 02:41 PM
6 CYL big bore short stroke LONG rod motors that generally run 3000 RPMs and under.
Marine engines, under constant load just as an aircraft engine is, and are generally NEVER under 3000 RPMS when the boat is underway.
Brian
One thing no one ever talked about in here is the amount of usage in a given time frame (say, hours per year)... an aircraft engine, used on the same frequency and duration as most boat engines, won't last more than a couple hundred hours... usually oil consumption goes through the roof and compression readings drop off the bottom of the charts. Rarely do aircraft engines catastrophically fail such as we see with boat engines...
Face it, most boat engines spend their time sitting... and that's very hard on bare metal parts on the inside of the engines.
Also, taking the boat-airplane comparison even farther... an aircraft engine is set at such-and-such power setting and then run there for several hours on end. How many boat engines run at the exact same setting for that long of time?? Few if any. The stresses is changing the speed of all that rotating mass are large I would think.
Burley1
09-10-2006, 03:49 PM
I would say that big inch engines not turning over 6000 should last 250 hrs, these would be very high "100 hp per litre" hp engines.
Mild engines should last 3 or 4 times as long.
Burley1
09-10-2006, 03:52 PM
DONT TRUST ANY OF THEM,
That is why I have outboards....
Amen brother!!!!!
Mandelon
09-10-2006, 04:19 PM
Reliabillity vs Performance are like polar opposites. One or the other, anything in between is a compromise. Customers' choice when end of the spectrum they prefer.
Demanding longevity from a high perf motor must reduce its performance....demanding high output will reduce longevity.
Sure you can upgrade parts, but its still a compromise.
So the compromise is made.....high quality internals, plenty of tolerances, a couple of seasons on a 700 HP custom built motor is about right.
What does Merc say is expected on the 600s or 1075s??
Kilrtoy
09-10-2006, 04:25 PM
What does Merc say is expected on the 600s or 1075s??
40K and 100K respectively
Mandelon
09-10-2006, 04:28 PM
I meant hours, not $$$$$, but the point is not lost about the cost. They're both out of my league.
Kilrtoy
09-10-2006, 04:30 PM
I meant hours, not $$$$$, but the point is not lost about the cost. They're both out of my league.
I know what you meant, but the rehab king you are , I know you can afford alot more boat than I could ever dream of....
Mandelon
09-10-2006, 04:31 PM
Yah, if I sold everything else. :rolleyes: Living in San Diego ain't cheap... :cry: :cry:
Trailer Park Casanova
09-10-2006, 04:38 PM
Our boat has twin supercharged/innercooled Hypo engines with a 4 year, no hour limit warranty stem to stern, superchargers,, everything covered.
I no longer would put a dime into go fast parts for two strokes. Our two stroke days are over.
If I was racing, I would have no hour expectations expecting the prime mover(s) to grenade at any moment.
But for a high performance family runabout,, it's expensive enough just boating without the repair costs, so today with the high cost of performance, warranty is everything.
burtandnancy
09-10-2006, 04:54 PM
Did anyone read about the Merc 1075's in a recent boating magazine. They do a free freshen up at 50 hours, then they offer a complete rebuild at approximately 150 hours for about $25,000. Don't know what the motor is worth as they only offer a complete package; motor/#6 drive/gimbal etc for about $150,000 ea. Maybe someday you will be able to buy a new Merc 600, 700, 800 or 1075 as a stand alone. I would really like to know what one of those motor would go for without the warranty to see how they compare to the after market builders such at Gary Taylor, Pfaff, Sterling, Teague, GT Performance, Larry Peto and others. Interesting and provoking subject...
Teabagger
09-10-2006, 06:06 PM
Talked to the guys at Merc at the LA boat show regarding this exact issue.
If I remember correctly I was told by a couple of them that the 496HO is good for about 500 hours, the 525 was good for 300 hours and the the big 1075+ good for 150 hours and less with minor freshening well below that.
No Name
09-10-2006, 06:14 PM
Talked to the guys at Merc at the LA boat show regarding this exact issue. If I remember correctly I was told by a couple of them that the 525 was good for 300 hours .
I can live with that. :)
deltaAce
09-10-2006, 06:21 PM
The life of the best built engine can be cut short, simply from say....an electric fuel pump did not provide suficent pressure (lean condition) on a high speed run, or the water pump failed at speed & you didn't glance at the temp gauge for 5 minutes. It's always a good idea to have a knock sensor that gives audible & visual warning. Two weeks ago I disassembled a customers 10 hr. engine that failed because the new cam snapped in front of the distributor gear. Who would of knew, who's to blame, doe's the cam manufacturer pay for engine R&R and all other incured costs, or can they blame the engine assembly guy or can he blame the customer for extreem operation.
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