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Mandelon
11-19-2005, 09:45 AM
I have a friend who is doing this so called Independent Business Ownership.....wants to get me involved. It looks like a modified Amway program to me......He says they make a couple hundred a month at it, and say their neighbors make more.....some make tens of thousands $$$ a month.
Anyone doing it, or know someone who does? Looks silly to me. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
?????????????????????????????????????????????

SummitKarl
11-19-2005, 09:47 AM
Pyramid scam

Dusty Times
11-19-2005, 09:47 AM
Can't believe you posted this now. I'm checking out Quixtar in another window right now. I don't think I'm that impressed. Too much of a pain in the ass.

Mandelon
11-19-2005, 10:03 AM
I did an internet search too and there's a lot of negative info out there. Looks like the Amway team put it together. Apparently they way the head guys make $$$ is by selling you motivational tapes and CDs every month....
The partner program looks kinda cool, but a lot of hassle for sure.

CA Stu
11-19-2005, 10:06 AM
You had better be brushing your teeth with product!
Dream stealer!
etc. etc.
All that stuff that tries to make you look at your friends as an opportunity to make money sucks in a big way.
Cheers
CA Stu

mike37
11-19-2005, 10:11 AM
Its Amway no doubt about it

HocusPocus
11-19-2005, 11:01 AM
i have seen a few people make money with amway and simular other types of businesses.. but its not for me. i don't want my garage full of product or run around trying to guilt my friends and family into buy stuff from me.

Dusty Times
11-19-2005, 11:46 AM
i have seen a few people make money with amway and simular other types of businesses.. but its not for me. i don't want my garage full of product or run around trying to guilt my friends and family into buy stuff from me.
My thoughts exactly!
If I ask my friends anything it will be if they are going to the lake or if they want a beer (no amway brand either LOL)

Seasday
11-19-2005, 12:20 PM
I have a friend who is doing this so called Independent Business Ownership.....wants to get me involved. It looks like a modified Amway program to me......He says they make a couple hundred a month at it, and say their neighbors make more.....some make tens of thousands $$$ a month.
Anyone doing it, or know someone who does? Looks silly to me. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
?????????????????????????????????????????????
My brother got in and sucker punched about five guys at work. I told him if he was still in 12 months from that time I would jump in with a smile. Out in 7! Like someone said before, you better love toothpaste and soap and also pissing off your friends because you shame them into buying crap from you all the time. They either stay away or load up......no win situation for either side.

HM
11-19-2005, 12:26 PM
I have a couple of friends in Quixtar/Amway.
Quixtar is Amway. They will deny it, but it is. Quixtar was started as the internet division of Amway, and then they completely dumped the Amway name from the marketing side last year. Amway still exists on the manufacturing side of things, but because it had such a bad name, they moved away.
It is a legal pyramid. Just because it is pyramid in structure, does not make it a scam. What makes it a scam is that no one makes money, and if they do, it is not from the products. There is a book out called "Merchants of Deception". You have to google it and get it downloaded as Amway/Quixtar has been throwing a lot of money (legally) at getting rid of this book.
Simple question to ask the people......"Show me the money". They will avoid answering it themselves, and tell you not to base your opportunity on if they made money, but if you see yourself make money. I have a great story of a dude in amway that I interviewed.

HM
11-19-2005, 12:34 PM
Simple litmus test of an "opportunity":
Can you make a reasonable amount of money without ever recruiting one person into the business...or will you make more money asking "do you want fries with that?" If not, then you are in the business of getting people in the business....which is flat out a pyramid.
I worked an pyramid company hard for almost 3 years. First year I made about $60K (spend about $30K). The following year I made about $10K and the 3rd year I made $1000. I have a downline of 1000 people and earned the 2nd highest position at the time that they claimed averaged around $200K/yr. Reality was that the average for that position was about $10K and the average for the highest position is about $50K/yr. but they imply that these guys make millions per month. The biggest guy at my pyramid company left and went to Tahitian Noni (another pyramid type company). You should hear the damage control going on.....I tell you it is very much like a cult.
The other downside from not making money is the cult like atmosphere that exists with most of these types of companies.
The only way I will ever be involved in a Network Marketing. Multilevel Marketing, Direct Sales & Marketing, other wise known as Pyramid companies will be if I own it. Even then, I won't do it.

Dusty Times
11-19-2005, 12:40 PM
It's definitly not for me!

HocusPocus
11-19-2005, 12:44 PM
Simple litmus test of an "opportunity":
Can you make a reasonable amount of money without ever recruiting one person into the business...or will you make more money asking "do you want fries with that?" If not, then you are in the business of getting people in the business....which is flat out a pyramid.
I worked an pyramid company hard for almost 3 years. First year I made about $60K (spend about $30K). The following year I made about $10K and the 3rd year I made $1000. I have a downline of 1000 people and earned the 2nd highest position at the time that they claimed averaged around $200K/yr. Reality was that the average for that position was about $10K and the average for the highest position is about $50K/yr. but they imply that these guys make millions per month. The biggest guy at my pyramid company left and went to Tahitian Noni (another pyramid type company). You should hear the damage control going on.....I tell you it is very much like a cult.
The other downside from not making money is the cult like atmosphere that exists with most of these types of companies.
The only way I will ever be involved in a Network Marketing. Multilevel Marketing, Direct Sales & Marketing, other wise known as Pyramid companies will be if I own it. Even then, I won't do it.
reminds me of my wifes dad and a few of his friends.. started a "multi level marketing" business.. or tried to anyways. there was lots of talk of how much money they would all make but in the end, it was just that...talk.

HM
11-19-2005, 12:46 PM
You have to be a good listener and look past their simple hypotheticals of if you just found 2 or 3 people.
Listen closely on how they say things like "I have learned how to make $20K - $30K per month in this business." A good follow-up question is "So, do you actually make $20 - $30K per month?" And they will not answer with yes or know. You ask a few more questions like that and they will call you negative or a rotten apple or some bullshit. Or, they will tell you about how the co-founders are God fearing people and that they trust them with their lives and blah blah blah and how they give back to the community...and blah blah blah blah.
The problem with the 2 showing 2 or 3 showing 3 is that it NEVER EVER works that way. If you get a chance to look at someone's downline report, it basically goes 1 to 1, and about 80% of the people fail to "sell" or "purchase" enough to get qualified at the first position. Sure, you will get a few people who can 2 or 3 people or more, but after a few levels, it goes back down to just one. You basically have to use people to find other people until you find someone who will work as hard as your and doesn't mind using people. Out of 1000 people in my downline, I had 1 person.

voodoomedman
11-19-2005, 12:50 PM
Run Forrest Ruuuuuuuuuuun!!!!!!!!!!!

HM
11-19-2005, 12:54 PM
I just realized it was Madelon who started this post....Mr. Antedotal Examples are complete b.s.....give me the facts!!!!
Go to one of their opportunity meetings...I am sure you come back laughing after asking a few questions looking for the facts.
Another downside from this business is that I have seen families destroyed by the wife or husband who drank so much koolaid that they were going to succeed at all costs. The guy that got me involved ended up getting divorced by his wife (they have 3 girls) and is now alienated by his whole family. He won't talk to his parents because he says they sabatoged his business. This may sound like an antodotal story, but there were lots of them. I had only heard the side of the koolaid drinkers, but once I was excorsized, I then realized what the truth was.
They also say it is your own business that you own and can will to your kids. Bullshit. Read the contract. They can do what ever they want and you have little to no rights to anything. I tried to sell my position and it was declined for sale. They then de-activated me and gave my position to someone they were convinced to come over from another pyramid company.

HM
11-19-2005, 01:01 PM
Think I got some baggage from my experience? :D
Don't get me started...ooooops, too late!
I am currently writing a book (I don't really have anything important to say, I just want to go through the process of writing and publishing a book). I am going to dedicate 2 chapters to Network Marketing. One chapter will destroy the distribution model...with facts. The other chapter will address the cult like mentality that takes over.
If you google Amway, you will probably come across a law suit by Wisconsin State D.A.s against Amway. Interesting read there.
Ever want to see an interesting meeting?....bring me to an opportunity meeting and see the ultimate look of fear and panic when I ask some basic questions in a group that I refuse to let be danced around.

Mandelon
11-19-2005, 02:57 PM
HM, I would love to secretly videotape you at one of their recruitment Koolaid meetings....nice undercover piece for 60 minutes maybe???
All I got out of it was some free XS energy drinks and a couple protein bars. They didn't get any of my money......but I did agree to go to the meeting. The fella that took me sends me a lot of business so I sort of felt obligated to at least hear them out.
They all wear suits to the meeting, trying to make it look more professional. But it was only them at the meeting. I showed up in shorts and Vans tennies....hahahaha
They talk about all the money being made but most were at a really low level just from selling soap and vitamins to their friends and neighbors...
The easiest money I ever made was referring listings to a realty agent friend of mine. 25% of their commission for making two phone calls....$5000 for 10 minutes work. That's way "mo betta" !!!!!

RealityBoatCo
11-19-2005, 03:17 PM
I joined, not for the stuff they sell, but to have access to the partner stores online. Like BassProShops, Barnes,and Noble, Advanced Auto, and many others. I buy things from these partner stores for my shop and my home.
The products that they have for sale look like crap. And would never buy them.
No books have been forced on me, once I saw all the other stuff I could buy from the partner stores, who needs those books.
I will say that I never expect, to make a lot of money at it, its not my primary business. I have yet to attend a meeting. If all I make from it is a hundred or so a month from it then that will be fine.
There are 2 ways you can sign up, as an IBO or as a CLIENT, I signed up as an IBO and listed my shop as a Client.
The guys around here are pro's at it. It took me a year to get them to sign me up.
If you don't think you would like that stuff then DON"T do it. But if you are thinking about it at least research it before you jump in.

HighRoller
11-19-2005, 09:34 PM
I'm an IBO with Quixtar but not looking to hook all my friends. I did it because they have some unbelievable products. Their laundry soap cannot be beat at any price. They have a lot of good cleaning products that are super concentrated so you can buy a gallon and use it forever. They also have cool things like stainless steel versions of brillo pads that will clean anything off of any pan no problem. They have metal cleaner in liquid and pad versions, and their fuel additive is so strong you use 2 ounces per tankful. I'm not trying to seel this stuff, just trying to point out that this is not just a marketing scam. They actually have reputable products. I doubt you will get rich selling them, but that's another story.
My parents did Amway a long time ago and kept using the products after they quit because they liked them so much. We know a lot of people who are loyal to many of their products even though they have no interest in the business.

Magic34
11-19-2005, 10:17 PM
Frank,
You make some very valid and accurate points, but as we were talking, it was this exactly that I was talking about trying to break to mold for Network Marketing. You are a very intelligent guy (honestly mean that), but there are a few, very small few, that try to operate a fair and ethical MLM business.
Every single day, another MLM starts up and 90-120 days later they are out of biz and burned many people along the way. There are so many different comp plans that don't work. Some plans are even illegal in a few states.

Magic34
11-19-2005, 10:24 PM
I haven't put any thought or research into Quixtar and I will not claim to know anything about them. Just by the comments here, it seems that they lead with that "opportunity dream" without a strong product backing, with the exception of Amway products. This impression was only formed from this thread only.
As being in the MLM business, I feel I am a different breed from those others. I think that the product, a strong and solid product line, is the most important aspect in these businesses. If you don't have a product to fall back on, and nothing but opportunity, then one day the business will fail. There are a small few MLMs that do have a good product that they spent a long time with in R&D. In that, bringing quality products to the market through distributors is a great business. Through that PRODUCT, creates a a unique and desirable business opportunity.
The claims of $30-$40k per month are true in many companies, but it isn't something that happens overnight and it isn't an easy task whatsoever. Those that say that and do so are lying, and eventually close their operation down.

Magic34
11-19-2005, 10:28 PM
HM, I would love to secretly videotape you at one of their recruitment Koolaid meetings....nice undercover piece for 60 minutes maybe???
This was actually done to 2 companies back in 1997 or 1998. One of the companies profiled was Equinox, (they offered water filters, etc). The owner was then interviewed after this info and was all cocky about it. He was out of business within a year after that viewing.

Magic34
11-19-2005, 10:31 PM
One chapter will destroy the distribution model...with facts.
Ever want to see an interesting meeting?....bring me to an opportunity meeting and see the ultimate look of fear and panic when I ask some basic questions in a group that I refuse to let be danced around.
You are open to question me about anything regarding a flow through stair step comp plan.
I dont agree, like or pay any attention to the matrix (2x2x2x2 etc) or binarys at all.

Magic34
11-19-2005, 10:33 PM
Simple litmus test of an "opportunity":
Can you make a reasonable amount of money without ever recruiting one person into the business...or will you make more money asking "do you want fries with that?" If not, then you are in the business of getting people in the business....which is flat out a pyramid.
I can pass that test!!!!!!! Actually thanks for asking that question. :)

Magic34
11-19-2005, 10:42 PM
NuSkin: 290.8 Million 3rd quater Revenue
PrePaid Legal Services Inc: $99 million in membership fees 3rd quarter
Natures Sunshine: 87.7 Million in 3rd quarter sales revenue
Last...
AVON: $1.9 BILLION in 3rd Quarter Net Sales
Frank.... you and I, make-up biz tomorrow. :crossx: :rollside:

Magic34
11-19-2005, 10:47 PM
MORMEN BULLSHIT,we have been hit up weekly to "jump on the band wagon"'why haven't we heard of AMWAY IN A LONG TIME? :rollside:
Confused :confused:

uvindex
11-19-2005, 10:51 PM
why haven't we heard of AMWAY IN A LONG TIME? :rollside:Because they migrated themselves to Quixtar six years ago. :)
From the Quixtar site: "As the Quixtar site was developed, the executive team led by Ken McDonald, Quixtar's former Managing Director, was busy creating a whole new business model that captured the best aspects of Quixtar's sister company, Amway, in tandem with the best the Internet age and the fledging e-commerce industry had to offer."

Magic34
11-19-2005, 10:55 PM
their all pushing this q thing in town,if ya do work for the peeps that are in it they try(HARD) to get ya to buy into in,lots of food/household cleaning on line buying dealo
Got ya. So is Quixtar... Amways "answer" to the interent MLM biz and it kind of took over???

Magic34
11-19-2005, 11:10 PM
ya,i think AMWAY had some probs(years ago,not sure?)but this Q thing came to life and AMWAY kinda DIED,but the only ones pushing it is the mormens?and some BIGDOG AMWAY GUYS did live here in town,i'm moving so who cares :cool: :rollside:
OK. Understanding more. When Quixtar started, they prorbly just moved downlines over to Quixtar and continued under a new company for a fresh field in the market. Momo pushing it in Utah, no way.

HM
11-20-2005, 12:34 AM
We had a HUGE team of mormons in ACN. One guy hit the highest position in 17 months. Then, his mom hit that same position in 18 months. Sad part, is they are both making about $5k/month on customer bills (but the presentation would have you beleiving they made several hundred thousand a month). Make no bones...the guy made a few hundred grand, but 90% of money was bonus money from getting new people in the business - the startup fee. They claim the company doesn't make any money from the startup fee...which is true...infact it is illegal for them to make money on the startup fee...so they give it back to the reps as bonuses....oh, the reps have to sell or purchase so much crap to qualify and they call it a customer aquisition bonus..or sales bonus.
There are exceptions to this business as Magic34 has stated(I am still yet to be convinced....show me the downline reports). People who think Amway products are good and a good deal are just trying to justify their involvement on the "good product" angle. They are only reasonable prices to IBO's, not at list price. And most of the stuff is 3rd party wholesale any way. A little time on the internet, or even a JC Whitney catalog will save you money....and you don't have to stick to the claim of "Amway has great products" please :yuk: I used their products (SA8 or what ever their "great" laundry detergent is. We used it for a couple years with no noticeable difference and my wife thought it was costing more in the long run. We bought some other crap too when another friend got into Quixtar just to get them off of our back.
I sold raw materials to Nutrilite (Nutritional products for Amway) in La Mirada and they bought the cheapest shit they could get their hands on. I sold them one product they could not find a usable replacement for, but they tried as hard as hell to replace it, and would always threaten me to lower prices or lose the business. I stood my ground and kept the business. The next guy dropped his shorts for them even though I told him. The purchaser called me to tell me his victory. I called the sales guys and told him he sucked.
Side note: The majority of nutritional products sales is now controlled by MLM companies and they had the biggest growth in 2004, while the big boys of nutrition all lost market share. Anyone wanna buy some vitamins? They will make you feel 17 again, only with twice the judgement.:D

Rexone
11-20-2005, 03:42 AM
From my perspective (which is not new news here) MLM's are probably great income for a few on the top but the vast majority of downliners make little or nothing. What I don't like is you have to push the crap on all your friends or you don't make shit (or sign them up, again you don't make shit because they don't do shit except buy a few products you pushed them into). A few like Avon, Mary Kay, Shaklee, and to some degree Amway seem to have made it work for the select few higher ups but how many people on the lower tiers has it taken that don't make shit to make that scenario happen? But the only reason they have worked I think is their products are of good quality, not their business structure being anything outstanding.
I also think a lot of the MLM co's products are way over priced by the time they reach the consumer or the internet online stores and everyone along the line adds their margins. Too many middlemen from my view.

uvindex
11-20-2005, 05:38 AM
so you buying? one of the biggest con/dickhead/assshole builders in town tried to get us in on it, if hes in I'M NOT, hope ya get rich QUICK :cool:Am I buying? No, of course not. I was just answering your earlier question about why you hear less about Amway (and more about Quixtar) these days. :)

jtmarten
11-20-2005, 05:41 AM
I've been in about a year and a half, but not active now. The proprietary products ARE superior to name-brands. The real problem I see is the pricing. I can buy the same type products WAY cheaper at WallyWorld. The difference between Amway and Quixtar is the target demographics. Amway targeted everyone you knew and everyone you could introduce yourself to, to try and sell products. Quixtar targets only you and what you normally purchase/use every month. If they want to continue being a growing business they'll have to rethink their pricing/payout structure.

Magic34
11-20-2005, 08:07 AM
We had a HUGE team of mormons in ACN. One guy hit the highest position in 17 months. Then, his mom hit that same position in 18 months. Sad part, is they are both making about $5k/month on customer bills (but the presentation would have you beleiving they made several hundred thousand a month). Make no bones...the guy made a few hundred grand, but 90% of money was bonus money from getting new people in the business - the startup fee. They claim the company doesn't make any money from the startup fee...which is true...infact it is illegal for them to make money on the startup fee...so they give it back to the reps as bonuses....oh, the reps have to sell or purchase so much crap to qualify and they call it a customer aquisition bonus..or sales bonus.
There are exceptions to this business as Magic34 has stated(I am still yet to be convinced....show me the downline reports). People who think Amway products are good and a good deal are just trying to justify their involvement on the "good product" angle. They are only reasonable prices to IBO's, not at list price. And most of the stuff is 3rd party wholesale any way. A little time on the internet, or even a JC Whitney catalog will save you money....and you don't have to stick to the claim of "Amway has great products" please :yuk: I used their products (SA8 or what ever their "great" laundry detergent is. We used it for a couple years with no noticeable difference and my wife thought it was costing more in the long run. We bought some other crap too when another friend got into Quixtar just to get them off of our back.
But this is how most of the companies do it. They tell you that you are basically going to become a millionaire. I look at it from more of an additional income stream. I think it is only ethical that you lead someone on a honest path. I'm not going to tell you that your $40k/month check is around the corner, but there is a way to add an extra $1000-$4000 per month to your income with a little work and it isn't going to all of your friends and trying to con them into something.
Someone is always looking for something else to do and if you are approachable, the business will come to you, without having to bring in your mom and dad. or best friend and their family.
In so many of the service selling companies (matrix comp plan) the mentality of the people is that you get 2 who get 2 who get 2 and so forth until you have X number of people below you and get $20k/month. Those companies start up every single day.
This is where I differ, what if those same people that are making $4k-$5k per month as you stated above? The only difference is this was the expected amount. Meaning that the info given at the beginning of their business was more realistic.
Will people make $40k/month? Yes they will (this is a small few but it happens), I have seen the checks and it isn't necessarily the people on top. By the time they get to that income level, it looks like they are on top because they have worked at it for a very long consistent time and have tons of people in their downline. At the same time is also really changes people into something I don't like to work with. That is another story in its own.
I am not defending Quixtar, Amway or any of the others. All I am saying is that there are some companies that have a fair way to make some money in this industry. And I am really not to promote anything either in this discussion. I really find it interesting after reading many of these responses and there have been 1 thing that I have gotten from this where I wan to alter something in our company.
I have distributors making $25k-$40k per YEAR (not month) who have not signed up 1 person. They just sell the products. They offer services THEY (not the mlm company) provide. There is not just 1 way to make money, but at least 3-4 other ways than just signing people up in masses.

Magic34
11-20-2005, 08:14 AM
The difference between Amway and Quixtar is the target demographics. Amway targeted everyone you knew and everyone you could introduce yourself to, to try and sell products. Quixtar targets only you and what you normally purchase/use every month. If they want to continue being a growing business they'll have to rethink their pricing/payout structure.
Now this is just from what I have heard here and my assumption... They wanted to focus on only that 1 person (let's call it "you"). There are so many "you" when it comes to Amway. They had a HUGE distributor base, and they made a change. They already had all of the distributors, so taking that number and getting everyone to buy something can create a large revenue stream. Based on your statement, it seems to me that they (Amway execs) siad, we have a ton of people but only pockets of people are doing anything, so lets make a new company that focuses on getting each person to buy our products.
If the company did differ, I can bet that most of the organizations just moved directly over to the new biz. When companies start doing this, it helps at first, but resluts are not shown over time and people become less and less active each month.