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Outnumbered
11-21-2005, 10:56 AM
GM to Close Nine Plants, Lay Off 30,000
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,176199,00.html
"GM has been crippled by high labor, pension, health care and materials costs as well as by sagging demand for sport utility vehicles, its longtime cash cows, and by bloated plant capacity."

Biglue
11-21-2005, 11:13 AM
Wagoner said the company has informed the leadership of the United Auto Workers union of the moves, calling it "tough medicine for us and it's tough medicine for everyone involved."
The troubled automaker also said an agreement with the UAW will allow it to cut employee health care costs by about $3 billion annually.
Once GM is in serious financial troubles let's see who the focking unions represent then.

ROZ
11-21-2005, 11:45 AM
Unfortunate, but expected....

My Man's Sportin' Wood
11-21-2005, 12:16 PM
I think it's the beginning of the end. I've been expecting it. Things will start sno-balling. Consumer spending can't hold our economy together forever. That is exactly what happened in the 20s. Not that alone, of course, but it was one of the factors. Another was credit given with no collateral, which is what is going to be the situation if home prices start dropping and folks owe more than the house will sell for after they maxed out their equity, banking on prices to keep going up like crazy.
Sorry, don't mean to sound like Chicken Little, but it's just a disaster waiting to happen.

BigBlockBaja
11-21-2005, 12:33 PM
Unions suck anyway...

a catered life
11-21-2005, 12:39 PM
cant speak for other school districts but unions and house prices have been the second and third reason my school district in going under. the high cost of everything and the union not wanting to be flexiable for the long jevity of the members will force us to close school and permantly lay off those workers.........of course we all know the major reason :yuk:

baja 232
11-21-2005, 12:40 PM
I have worked many no-union jobs and I would rather work for a union. Don't have to worry about the owners friends or relative taking my job.Also I don't have to worry about a dickhead boss.

My Man's Sportin' Wood
11-21-2005, 12:41 PM
I was in a union and still had some dickhead bosses. I think that goes on anywhere. It's called personalities.

BigBlockBaja
11-21-2005, 12:54 PM
I have worked many no-union jobs and I would rather work for a union. Don't have to worry about the owners friends or relative taking my job.Also I don't have to worry about a dickhead boss.
IMO if you do your job and do it well, you shouldnt have to worry about your boss or his/her buddies....

Biglue
11-21-2005, 01:09 PM
I have worked many no-union jobs and I would rather work for a union. Don't have to worry about the owners friends or relative taking my job.Also I don't have to worry about a dickhead boss.
Labor board and lawyers would love to have their hands on something like that. Why would you need a union to dispute that kinda stuff.

BiggusJimbus
11-21-2005, 01:59 PM
I'm not a big fan of unions myself, but the premise of this thread is ridiculous.
GM is struggling because they don't make (Except for Trucks and Vettes) vehicles that consumers want.
If Unions were the main problem, the Germans would have quit building cars about 30 years ago.
Their business is failing because they are failing their business on the highest levels.

Biglue
11-21-2005, 02:03 PM
I'm not a big fan of unions myself, but the premise of this thread is ridiculous.
GM is struggling because they don't make (Except for Trucks and Vettes) vehicles that consumers want.
If Unions were the main problem, the Germans would have quit building cars about 30 years ago.
Their business is failing because they are failing their business on the highest levels.
You have a point. Although I think what we are trying to emphasize is that unions will not comprimise very much to help the overall picture as far as backing off the benefits for example. It costs money for benefits packages. Money that GM does not have. I prefer to give up some benfits vs. MY JOB if it came down to it.
I bet you the unions would have different tune if they had to carry the burden of paying for those benefits............Just a thought.

ROZ
11-21-2005, 02:07 PM
If Unions were the main problem, the Germans would have quit building cars about 30 year ago...
Not quite the same there.... Social ecomonics are much different... I.E. Healthcare, compensation, and unemployment are paid by the state... I'm sure there are subsidies, but large companies pay a lot to the system already...

HighRoller
11-21-2005, 02:08 PM
Actually, both sides of the argument are partially correct. GM hasn't evolved to operate efficiantly in light of their shrinking market share. They used to sell 60% of the cars here, now it's about 30%. But the UAW's unreasonable demands are also to blame. I mean c'mon. Guaranteed lifetime employment?? What company can survive with a bunch of tit milkers as employees? Ford has guys sitting around reading the paper at $30/hr right now because they have a "lifetime job". And the employee pricing was a desperation move by GM to clear out over 1 million cars and trucks that had been sitiing on dealer lots for way too long. The gas prices have killed SUV sales, which was their strongest money maker.
Basically, the domestic automakers are paying wages that are about double what the work is worth, plus benefits. No company can sustain that kind of financial irresponsibility for very long. And as far as dickheads in charge, anyone seen what the UAW and Teamsters are willing to do when they don't get their way? If you try to cross a picket line just so you can feed your family they will do everything in their power to destroy your life.

Biglue
11-21-2005, 02:17 PM
Actually, both sides of the argument are partially correct. GM hasn't evolved to operate efficiantly in light of their shrinking market share. They used to sell 60% of the cars here, now it's about 30%. But the UAW's unreasonable demands are also to blame. I mean c'mon. Guaranteed lifetime employment?? What company can survive with a bunch of tit milkers as employees? Ford has guys sitting around reading the paper at $30/hr right now because they have a "lifetime job". And the employee pricing was a desperation move by GM to clear out over 1 million cars and trucks that had been sitiing on dealer lots for way too long. The gas prices have killed SUV sales, which was their strongest money maker.
Basically, the domestic automakers are paying wages that are about double what the work is worth, plus benefits. No company can sustain that kind of financial irresponsibility for very long. And as far as dickheads in charge, anyone seen what the UAW and Teamsters are willing to do when they don't get their way? If you try to cross a picket line just so you can feed your family they will do everything in their power to destroy your life.
This goes for othre union members as well. A fine example of the "representation" people pay in their monthly dues. Example of what reality is in these cases. Even though I have worked side by side with Jim, Bob, Mike for X number of years. Neither one of us can afford to save our own asses let alone a friends house and family. Who is to say you cannot return to work. FFFF that, I have my family to look after before my friends. Although I wouldn't want a friend to loose what he has building through the years either. But they know they can't afford to keep me afloat either. Just my .02.

HighRoller
11-21-2005, 02:26 PM
I'd love for any union member who has been on strike to add up the wages they lost during that time and compare it to the "improvements" to your salary and benefits. DOH! How long will it take for your pay raise to repay all that lost money? 5 years? 10 years? By then another strike will happen and you'll go farther in the hole. Wake up. The union does what is best for the continuation of the union. Period. That's why while you're walking the picket line for 20 bucks a day the union bosses are still getting a paycheck. It's not representation, it's exploitation.
You should be more loyal to the people who sign your check and more suspicious of those who take some of it and then tell you when you can and can't work.

Biglue
11-21-2005, 02:36 PM
I'd love for any union member who has been on strike to add up the wages they lost during that time and compare it to the "improvements" to your salary and benefits. DOH! How long will it take for your pay raise to repay all that lost money? 5 years? 10 years? By then another strike will happen and you'll go farther in the hole. Wake up. The union does what is best for the continuation of the union. Period. That's why while you're walking the picket line for 20 bucks a day the union bosses are still getting a paycheck. It's not representation, it's exploitation.
You should be more loyal to the people who sign your check and more suspicious of those who take some of it and then tell you when you can and can't work.
Hit it right on the head with that one.

mbrown2
11-21-2005, 02:45 PM
I'd love for any union member who has been on strike to add up the wages they lost during that time and compare it to the "improvements" to your salary and benefits. DOH! How long will it take for your pay raise to repay all that lost money? 5 years? 10 years? By then another strike will happen and you'll go farther in the hole. Wake up. The union does what is best for the continuation of the union. Period. That's why while you're walking the picket line for 20 bucks a day the union bosses are still getting a paycheck. It's not representation, it's exploitation.
You should be more loyal to the people who sign your check and more suspicious of those who take some of it and then tell you when you can and can't work.
Excellent post HR.....perfectly stated...

Outnumbered
11-21-2005, 03:05 PM
I'm not a big fan of unions myself, but the premise of this thread is ridiculous.
GM is struggling because they don't make (Except for Trucks and Vettes) vehicles that consumers want.
If Unions were the main problem, the Germans would have quit building cars about 30 years ago.
Their business is failing because they are failing their business on the highest levels.
You think so? Read this story, you may change your mind:
http://www.***boat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95147&highlight=ford

djunkie
11-21-2005, 03:08 PM
YAAAAA!!!!! Unions SUCK!!!!!! :rollside:

Outnumbered
11-21-2005, 03:17 PM
I know my thread starter topic is over-simplified, but the fact is that we cannot compete in the world market with the cost of Union labor and all of the baggage that comes with it. I'm all for a guy making what he is worth and getting treated with respect, but paying people not to work and expecting to be competitive is just insanity.
Regarding Employee Pricing; last desperate move that did not work (sold cars/trucks but made no real profits). Just liquidating the inventory.
As for looking to Europe as a financial model, that is a joke. Have you seen the unemployment rates over there? But I guess it doesn't matter if you are working because the government will take care of you :rolleyes:

plaster dave
11-21-2005, 03:31 PM
I'd love for any union member who has been on strike to add up the wages they lost during that time and compare it to the "improvements" to your salary and benefits. DOH! How long will it take for your pay raise to repay all that lost money? 5 years? 10 years? By then another strike will happen and you'll go farther in the hole. Wake up. The union does what is best for the continuation of the union. Period. That's why while you're walking the picket line for 20 bucks a day the union bosses are still getting a paycheck. It's not representation, it's exploitation.
You should be more loyal to the people who sign your check and more suspicious of those who take some of it and then tell you when you can and can't work.
Very well said.

Liberator TJ1984
11-21-2005, 03:36 PM
A little off subject maybe ...I have never worked for a union and the few I know say it sucks....Big Daddy always jerkin' their chain !!! One friend would not even help me with an electrical problem 'cause he was Scared the "Union" would find out and bust his ass for doing side work they don't get a Cut of....
But what I do know is I have been ,Demoted,busted back,transferred and even Promoted on occassion :cool: and what it all boiled down to was, How Bad Did I want My Job !!!
If you think your job sucks , Lookout , there are lots of folks out there just waiting for you to fall .....they will be in your place in a heartbeat if the door opens :skull:

Biglue
11-21-2005, 03:36 PM
Very well said.
Hey Dave. What's going on?
Hey did you ever consider having chix on your boat for an avatar? :)

wet77
11-21-2005, 04:18 PM
A little off subject maybe ...I have never worked for a union and the few I know say it sucks....Big Daddy always jerkin' their chain !!! One friend would not even help me with an electrical problem 'cause he was Scared the "Union" would find out and bust his ass for doing side work they don't get a Cut of....
But what I do know is I have been ,Demoted,busted back,transferred and even Promoted on occassion :cool: and what it all boiled down to was, How Bad Did I want My Job !!!
If you think your job sucks , Lookout , there are lots of folks out there just waiting for you to fall .....they will be in your place in a heartbeat if the door opens :skull:
I am a union carpenter now but started out working for a local contractor, the whole bust your a$$ just for one guy scene was not for me.
I just did not like my future being determined by one guy.
Now in the union if things do not work out with one contractor you have a list of ones that you can go to AND GET THE SAME PAY as you did the last so you do not have to work your way back up the food chain or prove yourself, just show up to work and do your job. :cool:
Granted every union is different but in my field its the best way to go for yourself and your family :cool:

Ziggy
11-21-2005, 04:56 PM
I know my thread starter topic is over-simplified, but the fact is that we cannot compete in the world market with the cost of Union labor and all of the baggage that comes with it.
Alas, major companies going off-shore to build their products where wages are a 3rd.....

Freak
11-21-2005, 05:25 PM
I think it's the beginning of the end. I've been expecting it. Things will start sno-balling. Consumer spending can't hold our economy together forever. That is exactly what happened in the 20s. Not that alone, of course, but it was one of the factors. Another was credit given with no collateral, which is what is going to be the situation if home prices start dropping and folks owe more than the house will sell for after they maxed out their equity, banking on prices to keep going up like crazy.
Sorry, don't mean to sound like Chicken Little, but it's just a disaster waiting to happen.
Sounds about right. Now that Housing is just about tapped out, maybe precious metals will have their turn...it's been on a run lately. I got in gold at 275. :)

MagicMtnDan
11-21-2005, 05:40 PM
GM is struggling because they don't make (Except for Trucks and Vettes) vehicles that consumers want.
Uh, not exactly.
The company is losing money on every vehicle made in the United States. They pay more for pensions and healthcare than they do for steel in every vehicle. If you're losing money on every unit you sell you cannot make it up in volume. :rolleyes:
While huge sales numbers will certainly help them tremendously their labor costs are KILLING THEM.
When GM goes away (closes or is bought out by another company) will you then understand that newer competitors (in the US) are doing better because they have much better control over their labor costs (unions)? Sure they have better quality product (Toyota anyway) and they sell lots more units but they also have significantly lower labor costs.
This is a battle between GM (and Ford and D-Chrysler) and their unions. If the unions win the battle they will lose the war. Then who wins? The Japanese auto makers of course. :cry:

Outnumbered
11-21-2005, 05:43 PM
I am a union carpenter now but started out working for a local contractor, the whole bust your a$$ just for one guy scene was not for me.
I just did not like my future being determined by one guy.
Now in the union if things do not work out with one contractor you have a list of ones that you can go to AND GET THE SAME PAY as you did the last so you do not have to work your way back up the food chain or prove yourself, just show up to work and do your job. :cool:
Granted every union is different but in my field its the best way to go for yourself and your family :cool:
If they all worked like that and didn't have all the other BS that goes with it it would be great. It sounds like you have a great union. But the fact is that in the auto industry, the unions have the guys getting paid not to work and that is a joke.

Outnumbered
11-21-2005, 05:48 PM
Uh, not exactly.
The company is losing money on every vehicle made in the United States. They pay more for pensions and healthcare than they do for steel in every vehicle. If you're losing money on every unit you sell you cannot make it up in volume. :rolleyes:
While huge sales numbers will certainly help them tremendously their labor costs are KILLING THEM.
When GM goes away (closes or is bought out by another company) will you then understand that newer competitors (in the US) are doing better because they have much better control over their labor costs (unions)? Sure they have better quality product (Toyota anyway) and they sell lots more units but they also have significantly lower labor costs.
This is a battle between GM (and Ford and D-Chrysler) and their unions. If the unions win the battle they will lose the war. Then who wins? The Japanese auto makers of course. :cry:
You know what makes me sick is that China is watching this whole fiasco unfold and they are poised to start selling cars in the US. Just watch, soon they will be flooding the US market with Hung Chengs or some shit. Then all the union UAW guys will be bitching that people are buying these POS cars, not realizing that in a way it is their fault they are here.

Outnumbered
11-21-2005, 05:51 PM
Wow, look what I just Googled:
Chinese cars headed for U.S.
Visionary, China's Chery plan to import cars priced 30% less than comparable models.
January 3, 2005: 12:12 PM EST
NEW YORK (CNN) - A U.S.-based company plans to sell cars manufactured in China at American dealerships beginning in 2007.
Visionary Vehicles has partnered with Chinese automobile company Chery in efforts to create and import high-quality, stylish cars priced 30 percent lower than comparable models currently on sale in the United States.
The 2007 fleet will launch with five totally new models consisting of compact, mid-size and crossover sedans as well as a luxury sports coupe and a sport utility vehicle.
Visionary Vehicles is headed by auto industry entrepreneur Malcolm Bricklin, who also brought Subaru and Yugo cars to U.S. consumers.
Yugo America, which imported a small hatchback car manufactured in Yugoslavia, closed in 1992 following weak sales and rampant complaints about poor quality.
To dispel concerns about the quality of cars made in China, Visionary announced that its cars will come with 10-year/100,000 mile warrantees.
European and Japanese design firms behind Ferrari and Lamborghini luxury sports cars have been enlisted to design the launch models. The company said it will consider developing hybrid, fuel cell and turbo diesel cars as the market demands them.
Visionary plans to sell its new brand of cars at 250 dealerships nationwide and estimates 12,500 jobs will be created as a result.
The sales goal for the first year is set at 250,000.

Biglue
11-21-2005, 06:06 PM
As soon as Toyota or Nissan offers a HD truck capable of towing boats, trailers etc, it's all over. As of now they offer a great product with higher resale values than domestic vehicles.
Look at KIA and Hyundai......10yr/100K warranties. How can we compete to keep jobs "AMERICAN" with the high costs of benefits and workers comp? Do you guys think the UNIONS give a s h i t about our big picture? They don't, they are in "BUSINESS" themselves. Think about it folks. We may be in the process of extincting some American vehicles along with all the jobs that goes with them.

Rexone
11-21-2005, 06:06 PM
Actually, both sides of the argument are partially correct. GM hasn't evolved to operate efficiantly in light of their shrinking market share. They used to sell 60% of the cars here, now it's about 30%. But the UAW's unreasonable demands are also to blame. I mean c'mon. Guaranteed lifetime employment?? What company can survive with a bunch of tit milkers as employees? Ford has guys sitting around reading the paper at $30/hr right now because they have a "lifetime job". And the employee pricing was a desperation move by GM to clear out over 1 million cars and trucks that had been sitiing on dealer lots for way too long. The gas prices have killed SUV sales, which was their strongest money maker.
Basically, the domestic automakers are paying wages that are about double what the work is worth, plus benefits. No company can sustain that kind of financial irresponsibility for very long. And as far as dickheads in charge, anyone seen what the UAW and Teamsters are willing to do when they don't get their way? If you try to cross a picket line just so you can feed your family they will do everything in their power to destroy your life.
I think that's a pretty accurate summary. What GM is seeing is the result of being uncompetitive due to multiple factors, including gas price (weak sales), excessive wages and benefit packages (union forced), and stiff competition from US and around the world carmakers, and up till now not downsizing to fit the market. Any company who allows themself to become uncompetitive will not succeed beyond their deep pockets or their financing ability, both which will eventually run dry (BK time). GM is just the tip of this iceberg I'm thinking too. The US economy is far overdue for a deep recession imo due to excesses mentioned above, unrealistic real estate values, and people spending way beyond their means (heavy debt loads with lots of toys and excess to keep up with Jones syndrome). I heard this week that the debt level vs. savings (virtually none) of individuals has never been higher in recorded history. People on average are spending more than they make.
You can only overmilk a cow so long before the cow no longer can produce milk and eventually the cow dies from the continual squeezing. This analogy will apply to many US companies, stay tuned. The exporting of our manufacturing to China and elsewhere is only exasparating the problems that exist in the manufacturing we do have left making these companies even more uncompetitive (like GM).
It's tough to compete with a China built products whether it be cars or widgets where $1 a day labor is exploited. It's even tougher to do so in a climate where you're forced to pay your own labor costs at a level of probably twice what they realistically should be in many cases (wage and benefits figured in). ($50 an hour vs. the $25 the job is actually worth for the business to remain viable for example). What's coming up will be the historical "leveling" cycle where thousands lose unrealistic high paying jobs for doing meanial tasks and companies fail by the hundreds if not by the thousands. Recession or even a more dramatic depression may follow for several years. Recession will come as part of this historical cycle of excess and lean. Eventually new startups with more realistic wage and business strategies will emerge to take the place of the once viable companies who lost sight of what was real and what was not in terms of remaining competitive.
And I'm not a pessimist. Just a realist. This is a predictible historical cycle. The US economy has been riding the high end for quite awhile now.

Jbb
11-21-2005, 06:08 PM
You can only overmilk a cow so long before the cow no longer can produce milk and eventually the cow dies from the continual squeezing.
Brown is a major proponent of....continual squeezing...... :p

lilrick
11-21-2005, 06:17 PM
I'm working very hard to get in a strong union called the ILWU.I've been working as a casual now for a year and love every opportunity I get to work. It's been my experience that no matter where one works, there will always be a loafer! I am sad to see good union jobs go. I like the thought of standing upto corporate America and demanding a better life for me and my family!!!!!!!! go unions!!!!!!!

Cat Skinner
11-21-2005, 06:30 PM
All you union experts seem to think that all unions are the same. I'm a 27 year member of Operating Engineers Local 3. In our union if you can't cut the mustard you're down the road. Now tell me, you really want some non union schmuck running a D10 beheind your house? What's the problem with someone making a decent living in the trades? If I don't work I don't get paid. I don't get paid holidays or sick days. I make a 100k and I work 2500 hours a year. Over paid? I don't think so. That's about the top of the hourly wages. If any of you union bashers want to see if you can cut it in my little world PM me and I'll give you a shot! CS

Biglue
11-21-2005, 06:30 PM
I'm working very hard to get in a strong union called the ILWU.I've been working as a casual now for a year and love every opportunity I get to work. It's been my experience that no matter where one works, there will always be a loafer! I am sad to see good union jobs go. I like the thought of standing upto corporate America and demanding a better life for me and my family!!!!!!!! go unions!!!!!!!
Don't forget that unions cannot guarantee what the companies can't afford to pay for. :cool:

Biglue
11-21-2005, 06:34 PM
All you union experts seem to think that all unions are the same. I'm a 27 year member of Operating Engineers Local 3. In our union if you can't cut the mustard you're down the road. Now tell me, you really want some non union schmuck running a D10 beheind your house? What's the problem with someone making a decent living in the trades? If I don't work I don't get paid. I don't get paid holidays or sick days. I make a 100k and I work 2500 hours a year. Over paid? I don't think so. That's about the top of the hourly wages. If any of you union bashers want to see if you can cut it in my little world PM me and I'll give you a shot! CS
Perhaps you should file a grievance with your union. :)
Look for the most part unions are a racket......let's face it.
And as far as someone driving a train behind my house, sure why not. As long as he is experienced. Union doesn't account for experience. Is there something else you want to add?

mickeyfinn
11-21-2005, 06:34 PM
GM can still pull the rabbit out of the hat. They will have to have some dramatic union concessions. The money they are losing is from the auto producing side of the company. It has been said for several years now that GM is a really big financial company that just happens to own an auto manufacturing company.

Cat Skinner
11-21-2005, 06:42 PM
Perhaps you should file a grievance with your union. :)
Look for the most part unions are a racket......let's face it.
And as far as someone driving a train behind my house, sure why not. As long as he is experienced. Union doesn't account for experience. Is there something else you want to add?
What are ya saying? The reason that my union is strong is because we have qualified people to run the equipment. If your not qualified you ain't working. GET IT! When that unskilled train driver runs through your house and kills your wife and children, who are you going to blame? You'll be crying your little eyes out and saying that these operators should be trained. THAT'S WHAT MAKE MY UNION STRONG. TRAINING!!!!!!!!!!!! Any light gettin' through there Jerky? CS

BiggusJimbus
11-21-2005, 06:48 PM
GM has not been losing market share for the last several years because their costs are too high or their discounts are too deep.
They may be losing money for those reasons, but they are an effect, not a cause.
GM will not get any better until their product is more attractive. You can look to Chrysler for an example of how to turn your perception in the marketplace around. I haven't liked much about Chrysler products over the years, but there are several offerings they have now that I would seriously consider. I wouldn't have said that 3 or 4 years ago. They are eating into GMs business by building attractive products.

Biglue
11-21-2005, 06:50 PM
What are ya saying? The reason that my union is strong is because we have qualified people to run the equipment. If your not qualified you ain't working. GET IT! When that unskilled train driver runs through your house and kills your wife and children, who are you going to blame? You'll be crying your little eyes out and saying that these operators should be trained. THAT'S WHAT MAKE MY UNION STRONG. TRAINING!!!!!!!!!!!! Any light gettin' through there Jerky? CS
You have no argument numbnuts. What did I say about a driver behind my house? As long as he was experienced..........right?
How often have you actually used the representation you pay for on a MONTHLY basis dude? Don't be foolish. If you say you clear 100K a year, imagine what the union peeps are making. What were saying is that it's the sometimes/all the time unreasonble demands for benefits from the unions is part of the cause for the issues GM is going through. I want to see what your union would say if your employer said I can't afford all your benefits anymore. YOu think they are going to carry that bill for you? Be realistc my friend. Answer yourself that question. Are they going to pay the monthy bill the employer can no longer afford.

Rexone
11-21-2005, 06:52 PM
All you union experts seem to think that all unions are the same. I'm a 27 year member of Operating Engineers Local 3. In our union if you can't cut the mustard you're down the road. Now tell me, you really want some non union schmuck running a D10 beheind your house? What's the problem with someone making a decent living in the trades? If I don't work I don't get paid. I don't get paid holidays or sick days. I make a 100k and I work 2500 hours a year. Over paid? I don't think so. That's about the top of the hourly wages. If any of you union bashers want to see if you can cut it in my little world PM me and I'll give you a shot! CS
I agree not all unions are bad. And I agree you're not overpaid. My dad and brother were in the biz you're in for many years. It's tough demanding work.
But there are union jobs that pay as much or more than yours for much less demanding work. Those are the milkers (unions). By demanding higher wages and benefits than the jobs are worth they simply drive the company out of biz. Result everyone loses. Corportate america is wrongly viewed by many as the enemy. People forget it's corporate america that writes the checks and takes the risks. And people are naive to think that corporate america has endless deep pockets to keep supporting unrealistic wages and benefits. The result is headlines like the one at the top of this thread. I wonder how many of those 30K layoffs who won't have jobs soon are appreciating the efforts of their union right now helping to make GM uncompetitive.

DAVEO
11-21-2005, 06:55 PM
You have no argument numbnuts. What did I say about a driver behind my house? As long as he was experienced..........right?
How often have you actually used the representation you pay for on a MONTHLY basis dude? Don't be foolish. If you say you clear 100K a year, imagine what the union peeps are making. What were saying is that it's the sometimes/all the time unreasonble demands for benefits from the unions is part of the cause for the issues GM is going through. I want to see what your union would say if your employer said I can't afford all your benefits anymore. YOu think they are going to carry that bill for you? Be realistc my friend. Answer yourself that question. Are they going to pay the monthy bill the employer can no longer afford.
You realy have no clue about the union. My emloyer pays me a hourly rate out of that hourly rate I pay for my benifets all of them.

TCHB
11-21-2005, 06:57 PM
There are going under becuase Honda,Toyota and many others make cars that people trust. They will even pay higher prices for the cars, motorcycles, and the list goes on. Which TV do you have in your home and why>

Biglue
11-21-2005, 06:58 PM
You realy have no clue about the union. My emloyer pays me a hourly rate out of that hourly rate I pay for my benifets all of them.
So are you saying that YOU YOURSELF are paying for your benefits? I asking a serious question here. Is the company paying any percentage of those costs? If you are paying for you benefits all on YOUR own......then what is the point of you paying monthly dues???????? Where is the representation there. Enlighten me.

Cat Skinner
11-21-2005, 07:11 PM
You have no argument numbnuts. What did I say about a driver behind my house? As long as he was experienced..........right?
The way I see it. You're making my argument for me. Where are you going to get a quallified train operator? 7-11?
How often have you actually used the representation you pay for on a MONTHLY basis dude? Don't be foolish. If you say you clear 100K a year, imagine what the union peeps are making. What were saying is that it's the sometimes/all the time unreasonble demands for benefits from the unions is part of the cause for the issues GM is going through. I want to see what your union would say if your employer said I can't afford all your benefits anymore. YOu think they are going to carry that bill for you? Be realistc my friend. Answer yourself that question. Are they going to pay the monthy bill the employer can no longer afford.
Every time a get my paycheck, every time I need medical services and when I retire. THAT'S when I get my representation. I don't think that I would be making what I'm making without the union representing me.
I wouldn't compare The Operating Engineers and the United Auto Workers. My union prides itself on providing the best skilled labor to contractors. Don't think for a minute that all these contractors wouldn't go non union if that weren't the case. We live and die by our skills and the ability to do the job on time and on budget. There is very little dead wood in my field. When work slows they're the first to get trimmed and you can't contest a lay off.
I can agree to disagre with you, but please don't group all unions together. I belong to a very proud bunch. CS

mickeyfinn
11-21-2005, 07:35 PM
What you want to bet that a very high percentage of the UAW workers currently employed by facilities that are closing in the next 1 to 3 years will do absolutely nothing about finding a new job until maybe 60 to 90 days before the plant closes. Not all unions are terrible, not all union employees are ignorant, however the union atmosphere is a very good breeding ground for people who do not do or think for themselves. GM has given people plenty of notice that the plants will be closed and just wait, people will act surprised when the doors close.

chrissy
11-21-2005, 07:36 PM
[QUOTE=Biglue]As soon as Toyota or Nissan offers a HD truck capable of towing boats, trailers etc, it's all over. As of now they offer a great product with higher resale values than domestic vehicles.
Look at KIA and Hyundai......10yr/100K warranties. I was actually thinking about this the other day. Do you actually know anyone who owns a Hyundai thats made it to 100,000 miles or 10 years?? LOL. They are throw away cars IMO and if thats what GM is going to be forced competing with that's pathetic. :skull:

LakeRacer
11-21-2005, 07:39 PM
I think that's a pretty accurate summary. What GM is seeing is the result of being uncompetitive due to multiple factors, including gas price (weak sales), excessive wages and benefit packages (union forced), and stiff competition from US and around the world carmakers, and up till now not downsizing to fit the market. Any company who allows themself to become uncompetitive will not succeed beyond their deep pockets or their financing ability, both which will eventually run dry (BK time). GM is just the tip of this iceberg I'm thinking too. The US economy is far overdue for a deep recession imo due to excesses mentioned above, unrealistic real estate values, and people spending way beyond their means (heavy debt loads with lots of toys and excess to keep up with Jones syndrome). I heard this week that the debt level vs. savings (virtually none) of individuals has never been higher in recorded history. People on average are spending more than they make.
You can only overmilk a cow so long before the cow no longer can produce milk and eventually the cow dies from the continual squeezing. This analogy will apply to many US companies, stay tuned. The exporting of our manufacturing to China and elsewhere is only exasparating the problems that exist in the manufacturing we do have left making these companies even more uncompetitive (like GM).
It's tough to compete with a China built products whether it be cars or widgets where $1 a day labor is exploited. It's even tougher to do so in a climate where you're forced to pay your own labor costs at a level of probably twice what they realistically should be in many cases (wage and benefits figured in). ($50 an hour vs. the $25 the job is actually worth for the business to remain viable for example). What's coming up will be the historical "leveling" cycle where thousands lose unrealistic high paying jobs for doing meanial tasks and companies fail by the hundreds if not by the thousands. Recession or even a more dramatic depression may follow for several years. Recession will come as part of this historical cycle of excess and lean. Eventually new startups with more realistic wage and business strategies will emerge to take the place of the once viable companies who lost sight of what was real and what was not in terms of remaining competitive.
And I'm not a pessimist. Just a realist. This is a predictible historical cycle. The US economy has been riding the high end for quite awhile now.
After reading this I'm thinking the marine business (west coast custom boats) is going to take a big hit. When it happens I"m wondering which outfits are going under??? I find it incredible that a 28ft boat is in the $90k range and sometimes well over $100k.

BiggusJimbus
11-21-2005, 07:40 PM
GM anticipates the MAJORITY of job losses will be handled thorugh attrition.
Apparently they expect about 7,000 jobs a year to be vacated because of retirements and similar leavings.
They lost money recently because they had to blow out about a million cars cheap. But not doing them costs them more (in the short term), as those cars are already paid for (financed perhaps, but the automakers carry lots of cash) and will continue to depreciate.

ROZ
11-22-2005, 12:49 AM
[QUOTE=Biglue]As soon as Toyota or Nissan offers a HD truck capable of towing boats, trailers etc, it's all over. As of now they offer a great product with higher resale values than domestic vehicles.
Look at KIA and Hyundai......10yr/100K warranties. I was actually thinking about this the other day. Do you actually know anyone who owns a Hyundai thats made it to 100,000 miles or 10 years?? LOL. They are throw away cars IMO and if thats what GM is going to be forced competing with that's pathetic. :skull:
Actually, it's a better car than most american cars in it's class and they go weel over 150k miles... Neighbor has one that has over that on it.

Rexone
11-22-2005, 01:26 AM
After reading this I'm thinking the marine business (west coast custom boats) is going to take a big hit. When it happens I"m wondering which outfits are going under??? I find it incredible that a 28ft boat is in the $90k range and sometimes well over $100k.
Very true Art. No different than prior recessions. And it won't be limited to the marine industry. All toy categories will be affected. Sand toys, enclosed trailers, you name it. New vehicles, boats, unneeded big houses, vacation houses, large ticket items that aren't essential will be the first to feel the pinch. If the recession goes deep enough it will go beyond toy categories and affect the general mainstream buying.

Red Horse
11-22-2005, 02:21 AM
And when you get ready to sell that stuff cheap there will be people like me ready to take it off your hands. :cool:

Jbb
11-22-2005, 06:08 AM
And when you get ready to sell that stuff cheap there will be people like me ready to take it off your hands. :cool:
Bingo!

Seadog
11-22-2005, 07:03 AM
GM has not been losing market share for the last several years because their costs are too high or their discounts are too deep.
They may be losing money for those reasons, but they are an effect, not a cause.
GM will not get any better until their product is more attractive. You can look to Chrysler for an example of how to turn your perception in the marketplace around. I haven't liked much about Chrysler products over the years, but there are several offerings they have now that I would seriously consider. I wouldn't have said that 3 or 4 years ago. They are eating into GMs business by building attractive products.
There are many reasons, but all of the domestic manufacturers are putting out cars that compete very well. Toyota puts out a higher level car, but if it was built with what the big three has dragging it down, they would charge 10-15% more for the vehicle. To make a car that has a high quality and is as cheap as the competition, you have to shed waste. The union deals have placed so much dead weight on the companies that they cannot compete. The unions are using the rhetoric about GM not making the cars people want because they are stinging from the reaction to the news and are fighting to keep from making concessions.
And giving the impression that Europeans, especially German automakers were do OK, is full of it. All the German automakers are hurting. The media doesn't cover it because it does not directly affect our country in a news way.

MagicMtnDan
11-22-2005, 07:25 AM
The problem is people think GM could solve by bankruptcy is its labor contract. The high pay is a problem, but the major concerns are the costs of benefits: the healthcare for workers, the laid-off, and retirees and families; the Jobs Bank that keeps people paid for years when they aren't working, and the pensions.
First, the pensions are safe. Second, any attempt to chop the contract through bankruptcy would bring on a strike and the union is stronger than the company, so it is hard to see how the problems would be solved. The new contract talks are six months away.

HM
11-22-2005, 07:51 AM
Bingo!
You know how we do it!

Jbb
11-22-2005, 07:55 AM
You know how we do it!
lol...yep.....Did it before......and will do it again...Its no sin to take advantage of....or should I say....help out.... the fiscally feeble minded...

HM
11-22-2005, 07:59 AM
lol...yep.....Did it before......and will do it again...Its no sin to take advantage of....or should I say....help out.... the fiscally feeble minded...
Long travel buggies with forced induction v-8's come to those who wait, at 10-20 cents on the dollar. And, if it never comes...no big deal! :D

Tom Brown
11-22-2005, 08:02 AM
lol...yep.....Did it before......and will do it again...Its no sin to take advantage of....or should I say....help out.... the fiscally feeble minded...
When I'm forced to sell my beaver tail collection on eBay, your bids will be rejected. :mad:
Do you think I don't know your handle ...... hoochiemamalover?

Jbb
11-22-2005, 08:13 AM
Long travel buggies with forced induction v-8's come to those who wait, at 10-20 cents on the dollar. And, if it never comes...no big deal! :D
LOL...yep...cars,boats, quads,vacation homes.........

Jbb
11-22-2005, 08:15 AM
When I'm forced to sell my beaver tail collection on eBay, your bids will be rejected. :mad:
Do you think I don't know your handle ...... hoochiemamalover?
High bidder gets it slim......speaking of hoochiemama.....lol....
Your meaness will get you nowhere Brown....Mean people suck.....

Biglue
11-22-2005, 08:29 AM
[QUOTE=Biglue]As soon as Toyota or Nissan offers a HD truck capable of towing boats, trailers etc, it's all over. As of now they offer a great product with higher resale values than domestic vehicles.
Look at KIA and Hyundai......10yr/100K warranties. I was actually thinking about this the other day. Do you actually know anyone who owns a Hyundai thats made it to 100,000 miles or 10 years?? LOL. They are throw away cars IMO and if thats what GM is going to be forced competing with that's pathetic. :skull:
If they were throw away cars, they wouldn't have 100K miles warranties no would they. That in itself would kill the company.

Biglue
11-22-2005, 08:31 AM
The way I see it. You're making my argument for me. Where are you going to get a quallified train operator? 7-11?
Every time a get my paycheck, every time I need medical services and when I retire. THAT'S when I get my representation. I don't think that I would be making what I'm making without the union representing me.
I wouldn't compare The Operating Engineers and the United Auto Workers. My union prides itself on providing the best skilled labor to contractors. Don't think for a minute that all these contractors wouldn't go non union if that weren't the case. We live and die by our skills and the ability to do the job on time and on budget. There is very little dead wood in my field. When work slows they're the first to get trimmed and you can't contest a lay off.
I can agree to disagre with you, but please don't group all unions together. I belong to a very proud bunch. CS
Perhaps I am putting all the unions in one bundle, you're correct. But you would agree to what I'm saying man. Most unions are in it for themselves and most people in the unions don't realize that unions cannot guarantee what companies cannot afford. That is my point.

mickeyfinn
11-22-2005, 09:44 AM
I have been a fan of a protectionist economy with import tarriffs based on a companies ecological and employee protection policies. If a country is in the manufacturing business and it is basically using slave labor employees as a means of manufacturing or needlessly polluting the environment then we impose a tariff that would give US countries an even playing field when dealing with some of the asian and third world country's products. Essentially bringing manufacturing back to our country. One of the biggest problem with this approach is that with blood sucking unions strong arming and blackmailing the american companies it is hard to justify charging a tariif in order to even the playing field so that a company can charge inflated prices in order to keep overpaying semiskilled labor.

chrissy
11-22-2005, 11:38 AM
If they were throw away cars, they wouldn't have 100K miles warranties no would they. That in itself would kill the company.
That's why most of them I see going down the road are rolling pieces of junk. Maybe I just don't see the ones that are taken care of. :rolleyes: And yes, you would think 100K warranty would kill them. Hopefully it will.

Seadog
11-22-2005, 11:42 AM
The OKC plant union Pres. "This was not expected at this time" (In the same article with several line workers that said they had been job hunting long before it happened because they expected it.)
"When the gas prices rose up over $3 a gallon, nobody in government cared about it. They just wanted to take care of the big oil companies. It played a big role."
It is crackpot statements like this that convinces me that the union have not a clue as to the real world. If the rank and file are convinced they may not have a job much longer, why wouldn't the union reps? If the government is helping the big companies, what does that make GM? I suppose the union answer to that is a conspiracy against the auto industry since it has such a strong union, or more likely a conspiracy with the automakers to break the unions. It is like the democracks. They live in this fantasy world that says they deserve the best for nothing. I sometimes think that as bad as the major depressions have been, they have served as a means to re-establish generations to the harsh realities of the world.

Seadog
11-22-2005, 11:51 AM
I should also point out that some of the OKC plant personnel are pissed about GM retooling the plant to produce the Envoy and Blazer in 2002. They figured the market was flooded with SUVs and could not be sustained. To me, that is a catch-22. I think that if GM, Ford and them had used their brains, they would have worked hard to get more refineries built. And if the government is so in the pockets of big business, why can't we get the go to drill for oil in areas we know have large supplies?

DAVEO
11-22-2005, 12:28 PM
So are you saying that YOU YOURSELF are paying for your benefits? I asking a serious question here. Is the company paying any percentage of those costs? If you are paying for you benefits all on YOUR own......then what is the point of you paying monthly dues???????? Where is the representation there. Enlighten me.
My dues are to help the administrative costs that arise In normal business,funtions and parties.

LGCDEVIL
11-22-2005, 12:43 PM
My dues are to help the administrative costs that arise In normal business,funtions and parties.
Last union business agent I had the pleasure of meeting was sportin' a gold Rolex, more F'in gold chains than Mr. T, and rolled outa there in a new Caddy. Last time I saw one of those "LIVE BETTER/WORK UNION" bumper stickers, it was on an 80's vintage Toyota truck on the side of the freeway, puking black smoke from under the hood, and four dudes that looked like Lynard Skynard standing around it scratching their heads.
Go union!!!

Howie Feltersnatch
11-22-2005, 12:44 PM
Not an attempt to piss anybody off but way more than 30,000 IT and white collar jobs have been offshored over the past 7-8 years by the Fortune 500. Consensus estimates have the number somewhere between 500,000 and 1 million as of 2005. There has been less of an uproar because it's been done gradually (to avoid reporting requirements) and by multiple companies. Give the unions credit for holding on to their workers jobs for as long as possible but it looks like the end is here, at least for the GM folks. This story has been going on since the 70s - reporting on it is how Michael Moore got his start (see "Roger & Me"). I read somewhere once that in 20 years the only jobs left in America will be CEO & janitor. I hope that's wrong...

riverroyal
11-22-2005, 12:58 PM
Last union business agent I had the pleasure of meeting was sportin' a gold Rolex, more F'in gold chains than Mr. T, and rolled outa there in a new Caddy. Last time I saw one of those "LIVE BETTER/WORK UNION" bumper stickers, it was on an 80's vintage Toyota truck on the side of the freeway, puking black smoke from under the hood, and four dudes that looked like Lynard Skynard standing around it scratching their heads.
Go union!!!
generation union pipefitter,16 years now.Ive been a stay home dad for 8 months,not sure if im going back.Heres the problem in socal.Our wages havent gone up in 10 years,everyone knows whats happened with the cost of living here.Our union wages are still better then non union,but its still not enough to live here.Without sounding like a racist,im not,the white guy has been forced out of most constuction unions,latinos can and will work for less money.They work harder than the typical white guy,although the quality of craftsmanship has gone down.Most constuction projects now have a fast track pace that wont allow time for quality,look at what the home building industry has changed to,all non union latino workers.Again Im not racial profiling here,so dont bash me.Its just a sign of the times,companies cant pay higher wages or they wont get the work,and they cant find skilled workers because they wont work for bad wages.So in the end the final product,a building,a house,whatever it maybe is built like crap!Ive seen it change alot in the last 5 years,building owners just want the project done fast and cheap,nevermind safety and quality,most owners sell the buildings anyways......Its not gonna get better,only worse.Weve seen it in constuction coming for years,now it will hit the automakers

DAVEO
11-22-2005, 01:48 PM
Last union business agent I had the pleasure of meeting was sportin' a gold Rolex, more F'in gold chains than Mr. T, and rolled outa there in a new Caddy. Last time I saw one of those "LIVE BETTER/WORK UNION" bumper stickers, it was on an 80's vintage Toyota truck on the side of the freeway, puking black smoke from under the hood, and four dudes that looked like Lynard Skynard standing around it scratching their heads.
Go union!!!
Business agents make less money per hour than the men doing the install. I know for a fact. Cuz I install and oversee all of my locals business. So the agent you saw must have had family money or working two jobs or selling crack to the nonunion workers.

riverroyal
11-22-2005, 01:51 PM
Business agents make less money per hour than the men doing the install. I know for a fact. Cuz I install and oversee all of my locals business. So the agent you saw must have had family money or working two jobs or selling crack to the nonunion workers.
the BA job is a step toward bigger stuff,they dont make that much money.Most BAs are older and established,a nice watch means he was working 20 years ago and was a rich constuction worker,like it used to be

rrrr
11-22-2005, 02:37 PM
I read an article in Forbes a few weeks ago that said over 5,000 people are in the GM "Job Bank". They don't have work to do, but as long as they show up at a work center during the day to play checkers or go to school they get 100% of their salary until they retire. Now there's an example of your union doin' something for you...... :yuk:
The article said due to the job bank, pensions, and health care GM's hourly labor cost has escalated from the mid $30 range in 1993 to $67 per hour today.
My wife knows a guy in St. Louis that has worked 30 years on the line for Chrysler. She says the two skills he has improved most in that time are throwing a football and the ability to do multiple bong hits without coughing. He of course has the same UAW deal that GM and Ford do; If he gets laid off he still gets 100% of his salary and benefits.
GM is screwed. No one wants their crap cars and the UAW is bleeding them to death.
another Forbes article (http://www.forbes.com/manufacturing/2005/11/22/gm-japan-autos-brands-cz_sk_1122gmbrands.html)

LGCDEVIL
11-22-2005, 03:47 PM
Business agents make less money per hour than the men doing the install. I know for a fact. Cuz I install and oversee all of my locals business. So the agent you saw must have had family money or working two jobs or selling crack to the nonunion workers.
If the BA's are only making 25 bucks an hour, what is the motivation for them to pull the BS they do? They may be pulling a check every week for a low salary, but there is no way a BA is gonna walk on my jobsite and risk gettin' the dog crap beat out of him for harrassing a bunch of tatted down ex-cons trying to make a living for a grand a week. There has got to be some kind of "incentive" plan or other compensation that motivates these guys to use the "recruitment tactics" they do.
I'm sure there are some unions in this nation that are legit. The local that F's with me is a bunch of gangsters with business cards.

rrrr
11-22-2005, 06:40 PM
Just saw that Motor Trend has named the Honda Civic "Car of the Year".
It's gonna get worse for GM and Ford. They are getting their arses kicked by the Japanese.

Boatcop
11-22-2005, 07:29 PM
I soured on Unions back in the '70s when I worked at Todd Ship Yards in San Pedro. Was a "coppersmith" doing soldering and brazing on various engine, fuel and water systems on new construction oil tankers. Paid my dues every month (on $5 bucks an hour).
When the tanker launched, I was laid off, because the next project wasn't ready for my line of work. The union hall (Shipfitters) had plenty of jobs as laborers, painters, welders, etc, (all things I could do) but I couldn't take any of them because I was a "coppersmith".
They wouldn't let me do anything else, except be unemployed, but still expected their dues every month. Well..fock them.
The Coast Guard ended up paying better, anyway. :D

TCHB
11-22-2005, 07:57 PM
GM market share is going down every year. They are in a spiral down until they can turn the numbers around.

upsman105
11-22-2005, 07:59 PM
The problem is people think GM could solve by bankruptcy is its labor contract. The high pay is a problem, but the major concerns are the costs of benefits: the healthcare for workers, the laid-off, and retirees and families; the Jobs Bank that keeps people paid for years when they aren't working, and the pensions.
First, the pensions are safe. Second, any attempt to chop the contract through bankruptcy would bring on a strike and the union is stronger than the company, so it is hard to see how the problems would be solved. The new contract talks are six months away.
Unfortunately if you look at what is going on with the airlines, and their unions you will find everything you just said is not true...

Freak
11-23-2005, 06:12 AM
Long travel buggies with forced induction v-8's come to those who wait, at 10-20 cents on the dollar. And, if it never comes...no big deal! :D
Stop thinking small. That stuff will be worthless. Whole towns will be for sale.
The entire population of Monowi, Nebraska, is sitting in a bar. Her name is Elsie Eiler, 72.
Monowi, founded by Czech immigrants seeking a slice of the American dream, is on its last legs. Only Eiler is left, surrounded by the ruins of homes that once boasted families, neighbours and friends.
'After me, I suppose there will be be nothing here. But I aim to be around for quite a few years yet,' she said with the stoicism that probably marked her tough ancestors. Like the Indian tribes that the settlers of the West replaced, Eiler is in turn the last of her kind, the last of Monowi.
This town is an extreme example of what has happened across America's heartland. The depopulation of the countryside over the last 50 years has been called the largest migration in American history. Nowhere is that more starkly illustrated than on the Great Plains, which includes Nebraska, Kansas and Oklahoma. They defined much of the American self-image, a land of family farms, hard work and mom's apple pie.
Monowi, and thousands of places like it, spawned the American small town values celebrated even now as the small towns themselves vanish. And you can't get more small town than Monowi.
Eiler's life as its mayor and sole resident is surreal. Once a year she raises taxes from herself to keep the four street lights on and a few other basic amenities going. She runs the town's only business, the Monowi Tavern, and lives in the only remaining habitable building. She grants her own liquor licence and elects herself mayor. Her customers come off the highway that runs through Monowi or from nearby towns. The town's welcome sign lists Monowi's population as two, a figure halved last year when Eiler's husband Rudy died.
It was not always so. Monowi - an Indian word for prairie flower - once thrived. It was founded in 1902 by European settlers lured by a promise of farms of their own. It soon had a post office, two banks, a high school, a church and rows of sturdy wooden houses. Its population probably peaked at around 150 in the Twenties.
A map of old Monowi now hangs on the age-tanned wooden wall of Eiler's tavern. It shows a grid of streets with homely names such as Louisa, Marion and Paulina. Now nearly all those streets lie beneath prairie grasses that are reclaiming them.
The pretty wooden church is boarded up. Houses stand in various states of decay. Some have collapsed completely. Others look as though their owners have just spent a year away: nothing a lick of paint and mowing the grass would not fix. In one abandoned home there is still a piano. In front of another a children's tricycle lies on what was once a front lawn.
Monowi seems hopeless but Eiler will have none of it. She's just opened a 5,000-book library just behind the tavern. This was her husband's dream project but he died before it was built. It is a hit with people from surrounding towns.
But the library's success is rare in recent Monowi history. The primary school where Eiler met her husband as a child is now a ruin. In fact Monowi's been in decline since shortly after it was founded. That is true of a lot of the Great Plains. Although settlers flocked to the land, the soil is too thin for quality farming and is soon exhausted. Changes in the rural economy, where Wal-Mart and other chain stores take almost all the business, have destroyed what remains.
That leaves behind only the old and the stubborn. Eiler happily counts herself as both. She is blunt about prospects here: 'There is just no employment for people. Farming is hard and all the small farms have had to merge into bigger ones, and the young people just want to go away to college and a city. Few of them come back.'
All over the Great Plains small towns are dying. The roll of decline is written on road signs on the road to Monowi. Obert: pop. 39, Maskell: pop. 54.
Many have tried all sorts of schemes to stay alive. Some have worked, turning them into artist colonies. The novelist Larry McMurtry turned Lucas, Texas, into a mecca for book lovers.
Others have not. Empty business parks, built with federal grants, dot the landscape. It is a reversal of the old ode: 'Build it and they shall come.'
The landscape is gradually reverting to grassland and prairie. Many farms are switching to hunting. Some have replaced cattle with buffalo, increasingly common on American dinner plates.
Twenty years ago there was a huge controversy when two academics proposed the plains be turned into a wildlife preserve called 'Buffalo Commons'. Locals and politicians, clinging on to their way of life, were outraged.
The former governor of Kansas, Mike Hayden, scoffed at the concept then. Now he thinks differently. 'I was wrong,' he said. The newest concept is a 'rewilding' of the area with animals from Africa such as elephants and camels, returning the plains to the Pleistocene ecosystem before humans arrived.
But the plains are taking matters into their own hands. Prairie wildlife is already returning as humans leave. When Eiler was growing up, deer were unheard of around Monowi. Now they are so common they are a pest.
Wild elk have returned, too. And predators not seen for a century on the plains of Nebraska are back. A handful of mountain lions roam the state and are even spotted on the outskirts of Omaha, the biggest city.
'We used never to get deer here at all. Now every day I see them come through the streets,' Eiler laughed.
A walk through Monowi is an eerie experience. The only sound is wind rustling through the grasses.
Suddenly a flock of birds shoots out of the tall grass, soaring into a blue sky. They had been nesting in thick weeds growing on what was once Main Street.