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Doug The Jeweler
01-17-2002, 03:42 PM
Today I was talking to a friend that was very knowlegable about the crash and shared some facts about the crash.Normally they would have run the boat away from the dam but the wind was going the wrong way so they switched.All the people in the boat had to stand up as there was no interior in the boat.At 80 miles per hour there should be at least 1 person survive the crash so he thought the 80 mph estimate was very low as the estimate came from spectators from the shore.He thought that because the boat had sunk so close to the dam that they were trying to get every last mph top speed and misjugded how close they were to the dam.They ran out of drag strip.I've been headed twards a dam and I just missed it head on.I was only going 80 mph in a 19 foot tunnel.It scared the shi* out of me.All I can say about the crash is ouch!!!

RiverDave2
01-17-2002, 03:54 PM
Doug, the WindBlows Across the side of Castaic.. That day it might have been backwards but either way it would be coming from the side wouldn't it? When they showed the footage on the news it didn't look like it was that close to the dam either, it looked like it happened what would normally be at the end of Speed Alley (Heading away from the dam).
RD

MrHavasuCat
01-17-2002, 03:56 PM
Wow, standing up in a cat at those speeds would be a scary thing.

RiverDave2
01-17-2002, 03:57 PM
Imagine doin it at 150.
RD

MrHavasuCat
01-17-2002, 04:17 PM
I can't.

RiverDave2
01-17-2002, 05:31 PM
I can't either..
RD

BlownChevy
01-17-2002, 05:48 PM
I went to Castaic the sunday after the crash and the fishing leg was closed... the east side of the lake, and it seemed like the were heading away from te dam... when i take my friends speed bot out that is the best place for speed because it is alot calmer over there... i guess when the were testing the boat they thought the same thing...too bad RIP

sleepster
01-17-2002, 06:16 PM
Let me tell you guy's it is scary harry going at those speeds, the fastest i went was D.C.B 22 twin 2.5 drags around 115 couldent really see the speedo, but when we came to a stop i could and its not fun, you start thinking about alot of things, i have done a few rides like that, the scary ones are when some one says, hey want to go for a ride? and you gust gump in a boat really not knowing the driver, or the boat, always use safty first, life line vest, bell helmet. you never know?

DMB
01-17-2002, 09:27 PM
I've heard the same thing no interior, one seat driver side. Also heard that one motor and drive are out of the boat.
Running out of lake! could be, but steve had alot of seat time running very high speeds.
[This message has been edited by DMB (edited January 17, 2002).]

RiverDave2
01-17-2002, 09:55 PM
I'm not buyin the theory that they were running out of lake and took some sort of evasive action.. I also don't think they were doing any real high speed runs that day.. Maybe 90mph at the most. There was up to 30mph winds out that day, when I talked to Mr.Pumps on the phone I could hardly hear a word he was saying becuse it was so windy. I think they were just going out to play on the lake for a few hours, and a "freak" accident, or a combination of things happened to make it go wrongside up. I don't believe that we will ever be able to attribute it to one thing. It will be similar to an airplane crash, where one thing led to another, to another, to another etc.. etc.. and then it went over. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/frown.gif
RD

Doug The Jeweler
01-17-2002, 09:58 PM
How deep is Castaic.240 feet is very deep.It is about that deep at Lake Berryessa at the dam in Northern California.I scuba dive and having to take 70 minutes to come up must be boring.The divers must be using Nitrox.What force it must of taken to rip a motor out of the boat.It had 1000 HP and it stayed in the boat.Is there any wonder there was no survivors left.RIP
[This message has been edited by Doug The Jeweler (edited January 17, 2002).]

DMB
01-17-2002, 10:22 PM
Know what,no one really knows right now just a bunch of speculation,anything could have happend.
But I tell you this, if I had to get in an HTM and do 150 MPH or even 125+ I would put my life in steves hands.

Chestah Cheetah
01-17-2002, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by RiverDave2:
I'm not buyin the theory that they were running out of lake and took some sort of evasive action..
I agree! Steve of all people knew that lake and it's distance limits.

***boat
01-18-2002, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by DMB:
Know what,no one really knows right now just a bunch of speculation,anything could have happend.
...
It occured to me that if the GPS they were using is recovered and could be made to work again, their max. speed may finally come to light and (if it has a "tracks" feature like my Garmin eTrex) their entire course on the lake might have been plotted. It's as close as it comes to having a "Black Box" as found on airliners.
At any rate, I agree that only time will tell.

DMB
01-18-2002, 10:40 AM
I had that very thought the other day.

Bill in Las Vegas
01-18-2002, 12:57 PM
[I am a proud owner of an SR24 and am also horrified by what has happened. My family was fortunate to have met such a strong willed man as steve and he will never be forgotten. Last summer my son Tommy was the regatta prince and we had a blast.Just before the regatta steve had a similar incident that he told me about were he worned me to always check my belts and to always wear the safety cutoff switch. He had very bad bruising to his right side becouse the power steering belt broke and he lost steering which he said threw him into a immediate left turn slamming him into the right side of his boat at the throttle and steering wheel.Gentlemen we have unanswered questions here but from my experiences with steve his risk factor was always with safety in mind and he would not sacrifice his love for family for a few more mph. Our boating family will miss him
[This message has been edited by Doug The Jeweler (edited January 17, 2002).][/B][/QUOTE]

superdave013
01-18-2002, 01:08 PM
The area by the Dam is the deepest part of the lake. It's way way deeper than 300'. I would think they were not close to the dam.

HUFFPOWER
01-18-2002, 04:52 PM
just an update,was informed by a very good source that the divers found both motor/drives,1 was about 10-15 from boat,the other was further back,transom not intact,divers aslo found a hole in one side,still no luck in finding the others,hope that they find them soon for the families.

RiverDave2
01-18-2002, 05:20 PM
A whole in one side?
Oh my god... http://free.***boat.net/ubb/frown.gif
RD

step up
01-18-2002, 06:11 PM
Hello i'm a htm owner .The boat was no where near the dam.They were either coming from the narrows or going towards the narrows.The boat is bouied off right now you can see the bouie from the ramp.Ken Lane's funerial was Thursday ,I spoke with his wife on Wednesday she was so pleased to hear about the memorial fund.Ken had alot of great friends.
see ya

HaulinAZZ
01-18-2002, 09:27 PM
Something to throw out there. Steve and crew had hundreds, probably thousands of hours running 24' single engine rockets.
Running a 30' twin engine rocket is a different animal. Safety equipment would have been critical. Would've been like driving a car in England after living in the US for 40-50 years.
I think we've seen a good example of what not to do here. We don't have all the facts, but it seems evident that all of the clues point towards a situation of poor judgement and lack of experience in craft safety preparation.
One of the questions asked by insurance companies for performance boat insurance is "How much time in comparable watercraft"?
Running 24' single engine rockets may have made them feel like they could "Handle anything".
It's a sad situation we hopefully all can learn from. Engage brains before starting engine(s).

DMB
01-18-2002, 10:12 PM
HauliAZZ, why would safety equipment be critical in a 30 and not a 24? and what makes you think that was the first time or first 30 foot boat that steve and ken had run.
Theres nothing evident or any clues to anything so far that led to this tragic accident.
How bout the best of parts can fail,engines blow,props throw blades,drives braking,a Fu*&kin bird hit him in the head.
NO ONE KNOWS YET,WHY ALWAYS DRIVER Error.
[This message has been edited by DMB (edited January 18, 2002).]

wsuwrhr
01-18-2002, 11:20 PM
I love how everyone becomes an expert on what NOT to do. Get off your soapbox, go to the corner of your room, stare at the wall and think about what you did that was wrong...and be quiet.
Four men who loved boating died doing what they were passionate about. Enough second guessing and let it go. There isn't an expert among us who can say exactly what happened.
Mr. Earnhart died last year in a tragic accident, who can say Dale wasn't an expert at racing? Shit happens, I have been riding motorcycles since I was a kid. I graduated to very fast street bikes, crashed a few times, and I am still here. When it is your time, it is your time.
Space Shuttle, even the best engineered vehicle failed with HUNDREDS, even THOUSANDS of experts behind it.
I can't believe adults bickering over what SHOULD have been done, or what COULD have happened. How would you feel if YOUR loved one had passed away and you were reading these boards...what would you be thinking?
These men all had families and people that loved them that are now left alone and behind. We need to be thinking of these people. When I get my boat wet come spring in Havasu this year, I want to meet all these people I read about, and I want to see memorial stickers an the sides of everyone's boats.
Anything over 100 on the water if f-ing fast, I have to respect anyone pushing the envelope. These people make the boats we all drive safer at any speed.
In 1950 would anyone envision a Corvette,Viper,or liter class Motorcycles doing 200 mph stock? I think not.
EVERYTHING we do in life is a risk, EVERYTHING. Some embrace it...

JLaughreySS24
01-19-2002, 12:31 AM
Wsuwrhr, VERY WELL STATED!!!!

Plasticman31
01-19-2002, 01:08 AM
I second that, very well said. Hope to meet you to...

HaulinAZZ
01-19-2002, 08:24 AM
Who said safety equipment isn't a good idea for running blistering speeds in a 24'? What I said was, running a NEW craft (30' with twins) speeds RARELY seen made safety equipment CRITICAL. The 30' only debuted last year with a single engine (although Mills was a twin). Unless I've been asleep in a cave somewhere, you can count on 1 hand the 30's that have been built and none of them have been capable of chasing 150 MPH mark.
I've owned flatties, jets and cats over the years. Every one of them took 100+ hours to become comfortable driving them. Several times I wore a rated PFD while testing.
People come out of boats at blistering speeds all the time wearing jackets, brainbuckets and shorts and a great number of them wave to the cheering crowds.
If anyone honestly says what happened last week was an example of safe boating (even from an R&D perspective), please post where & when you're going boating so I can go someplace else.
I'm sure the results of the official investigation will be known in the coming months.

gigamurph
01-19-2002, 09:53 AM
"I'm sure the results of the investigation will be known in the coming months."
EXACTLY! That is why I have not even attempted to introduce any theories concerning the cause of this tragedy. I'll admit to a few debates on the speeds these boats are attaining today; but at no time was I attempting to pinpoint this as a direct cause. If my posts came of that way, I sincerely apologize to the loved ones of our "boating brothers", as well as any of you on this board. It's sad that it takes something of this magnitude to get us talking about some of the things that have and are being discussed, but it's human-nature to put this kind of thing in the back of our minds with all the other stuff that "will never happen to me!".
Now, on to my point of this post. The statement I quoted at the opening of this post says it all in volumes! I know it's natural to speculate as to the cause, but the only theory that will carry any weight here is are the results of the "official investigation". I blindly jumped in on the debates without much thought of how our speculating might affect those involved in this event or the fact that something taken either verbatim or out of context, could be misconstrued and detrimental to the findings of the cause of this tragedy. I think it is time for us to remember "our brothers" and stop the speculation. Talk among yourselves, but quit putting it out in the open air for everyone to read. Our words could be hurtful to more than just the loved one's of Steve, Ken, Chuck,and Nelson. God rest their souls and bless their loved ones.
Please don't take this as a reprimand; it is not meant as one. Just a statement of MY feelings. Besides, who am I to reprimand any of you?
HTMLady and the other loved ones, thank you for sharing your information and feelings with us. For many, it is the only viable connection to this occurrence. It takes alot of intestinal fortitude to step up and talk about this during your time of loss. Or as we might say on the water, "YOU GOT GUTS!"
May God bless and always keep you in his heart! You surely will be in ours!

Doug The Jeweler
01-19-2002, 11:10 AM
I believe you are wrong.The speculation and discussion are things rarely talked about in regular boating conversations.The speculation helps drivers and passengers to understand what can happen and to correct the problem before it becomes a problem.It is a real wake up call,also It gives all of posters time to grieve out loud about the people who lost their lives while boating.Do you think that the families are the only ones who might need to grieve about this.The main reason I put these post is to give an opportunity for anybody who needed to speak out and feel that they could contrubute their wisdom or to grieve out loud ,could do so.If you would like to silence your self as your way of grieving that is your privledge.So speculate away............Sincerely Doug TJ

step up
01-19-2002, 11:32 AM
just a reminder they were going out testing new props!On tuesday or wednesday that boat ran 149 on a gps and what ken lane wife told me they had saftey gear on when they ran 149.Friday was just a fluke , i don't know if anyone has ever watched off shore racing.Dual motor boats is a different world when it comes to boats flipping.Lets all be thankful that all the bodies have been found and god bless everyone

HaulinAZZ
01-19-2002, 12:54 PM
I guess my point wasn't taken so I'll explain it a little better.
What happened was tragic to say the least.
I have a performance rig that runs triple digits and have no desire to have ANYONE tell me how fast to go. I try to do it responsibly so I can enjoy it for many years to come.
Sit down and ask yourself why there are so damn many speed, seat belt, PFD, etc,etc laws on the books????? It's because people get hurt in high profile crashes! AZ had a law on the books a few years ago called "Reasonable & Prudent" for highway speeds. The problem is too many people know what that meant and too many people got hurt. It got removed from the books!
Let's not speculate. We'll just state what's known.
We had 4 people in a boat not wearing PFD's or Helmets running a boat somewhere between 2-4 times the LEGAL speed limit on a short narrow lake during a high wind advisory. They aren't coming home again!!!
You're absolutely right, plenty of people are going to read this board. They'll see plenty of posts (From the performance boat community)favoring pushing the envelope and flaunting danger. What happens next??????
The Bureaucrats will decide we need more laws to protect ourselves from our lack of reasonable and prudent judgement. The speed limits will spread accross the waterways (Havasu)and next they'll put HP restrictions on boats, etc, etc. Wake up!!!!!!
I don't want to trade my rig in for a pontoon boat, but if this is the image that we're going to promote, wait and see what happens.

pgf127rt
01-19-2002, 01:52 PM
Haulinazz, you are so right, if we don't regulate ourselves, you can bet your sweet ass that all of the do gooders in the land will invoke legislation and impose laws that will curtail boating as we know it today.
I have read every post on these and other forums since this tragedy happened, and seen all of the guessing as to what happened, well folk's the only ones that know that are not here and won't be, and that is sad.
Speculation as to what happened isn't what HA was trying to get across, it was the matter of responsibility, such as some form of safety gear for all involved, I love to go as fast as I can and have been doing it for years, in both drag boats and pleasure boats, and I do not want to see my chances to do it again legislated by the tree huggers and the life savers of this country.
Consensus being, go fast think safe, that's all.

step up
01-19-2002, 03:42 PM
[QUOTE]We are all responsible for our actions!It is sad to think that a tragedy like this makes all of us think about saftey.I know from this HTM owner it has deffently made me think..

RiverDave2
01-19-2002, 10:48 PM
Originally posted by HaulinAZZ:
I guess my point wasn't taken so I'll explain it a little better.
What happened was tragic to say the least.
Let's not speculate. We'll just state what's known.
We had 4 people in a boat not wearing PFD's or Helmets running a boat somewhere between 2-4 times the LEGAL speed limit on a short narrow lake during a high wind advisory. They aren't coming home again!!!
Let me ask you a question... How do you any of this? Were you there? Have you ever been to Castaic? It's not exactly what I'd call a short Narrow lake. If anything is ridiculous it's the 35mph speed limit that's in place there. As far as the rest, unless you were present at the time of the accident your speculating. Besides with the highwinds my "specualation" is that they were just out for a day of playing on the lake and a "freak accident" occured.. In which case you wouldn't get all "geared up" with lifelines etc...
RD
[This message has been edited by RiverDave2 (edited January 19, 2002).]

gigamurph
01-19-2002, 11:22 PM
Discussion, YES, by all means! But SPECULATION DOES NOT = DISCUSSION! I may be wrong. BUT that's my opinion and I'm damn well stickin' by it! Won't even attempt to address all the speculative talk that has been goin' on; as to address it would be to imply that I am an informed source, and I'm not. I was not there, I didn't see it first hand, and I haven't spoken to anyone who did. So, whoever said that there are only four people who know what happened that day and they can't tell us is correct; and whatever else is said is 95% BS!

James'SS-24
01-20-2002, 09:10 AM
Well said Gig! None of us will ever know what exactly happened that day so we have no business judging any one involved in the accident.

Doug The Jeweler
01-20-2002, 10:10 AM
To Gigamurph
Who is judging the accident anyway.It sounds like you are the judge and if it meets your "OK" then we can talk about it.We are not children and you are not the dad.What is wrong with speculation.Isn't this board for free thinkers to express themself.Must you be the thought POLICE.Nobody said anything bad .Do you think the police will look at our post and to help them make out their final report?Lighten up.There is nothing on this post that you have any right to critisize.
[This message has been edited by Doug The Jeweler (edited January 20, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Doug The Jeweler (edited January 20, 2002).]

step up
01-20-2002, 10:11 AM
riverdave2 .I went to the lake the "quoteof the Narrows"is the north side of the lake away from the dam.That is were i saw the bouie in the water...We will never know what happened, lets hope we find out the details

gigamurph
01-20-2002, 07:50 PM
I sat here reading D T J's post and as I was, I was composing a rebuttal and it hit me that if I post my answer to him that I would be burdening the bereaved and others with the exact insensitivities that I have chosen not to. So I will limit my post to the parts that have no direct bearing on this tragedy. First of all, D T J, if you have read any of my "few" posts you'd realize that asking me to "lighten up" is like asking the Pope to act more Catholic! Laughable request at best. Second; I am not judging anyone or their posts. I just think that alot of speculation is counter-productive and possibly hurtful to the loved ones left to struggle with this. Third; as to your comment on me being the "thought Police"; it's about as informed as your knowledge of the events that unfolded on that fateful afternoon. My abstinence from posting any theories is an extension of a sentiment that RiverDave2 started in the "Appropriate Thread" on 1/15/02. I simply chose to take it a step further and not post anything in regards to what happened or the compitence or intelligence of the men involved, as the families and friends of these four brothers could also read the posts at that thread. MY CHOICE! As you said, this is a free forum. So in closing, keep dazzling us with your theories, it is your right on this board. I just choose not to be an insensitive s**t and subject the bereaved and, if they may read these posts, the people investigating the accident with my 95% BS. Happy boating and I hope to meet you on the water sometime!
[This message has been edited by gigamurph (edited January 20, 2002).]

HaulinAZZ
01-20-2002, 08:35 PM
River Dave,
Originally posted by HaulinAZZ:
I guess my point wasn't taken so I'll explain it a little better.
What happened was tragic to say the least.
Let's not speculate. We'll just state what's known.
We had 4 people in a boat not wearing PFD's or Helmets running a boat somewhere between 2-4 times the LEGAL speed limit on a short narrow lake during a high wind advisory. They aren't coming home again!!!
Point 1:4 People were killed in a crash and all of their bodies were recovered without a trace of safety gear.
Point 2: Witnesses claim the boats speed to be about 80 MPH. I gave them the benefit of the doubt and said 2-4 times the speed limit (70-140) which is the slowest speed I can imagine a 30" cat getting upside down for any reason. 140MPH is 10 MPH slower than the speed reported the day before (by the chest pounding mrpumps).
Point 3: There was a high wind advisory that day, I was in the area at the time of the accident and the wind was ripping!
Point 4: I've been on Castaic plenty of times. Only once with Steve and triple digit speeds is something that lake isn't suited for!
Point 5: The 35 MPH speed limit exists whether you or any other user of the lake agrees with it. It's like the speed limit on my street. If I think it's too slow and disobey it. I risk the possibility of getting a ticket. If I get too many tickets I lose my driving privileges. Get it???? Or do you have a problem with maturity and responsibility too?? If I break the law (speed) and hurt somebody, they usually consider it criminal. Did you ever hear of involuntary manslaughter??? When I was young and dumb I used to speed on the streets, thump my chest and act like a Jackass in general. I guess I was just lucky enough to grow up and start acting like a responsible adult before I got hurt, or even more tragic, hurt somebody else. Why don't you take your speed grievances to the authorities about Castaic. I'm sure they'd be more than willing to raise the speed limits now, right slick?
Is there something here you think is untrue or disagree with???
I don't think I've speculated at all.
If I WERE to speculate I would say that from the chest thumping that mrpumps was doing the day before. The group talked about the doubting souls regarding the speeds they achieved the day before. As a group, I would speculate they discussed all the immature name throwing that went their way and decided to show us all! The egos had to be raging! I wouldn’t be surprised if they took a camera to photograph the GPS and post it for all to see on the web. Something then went terribly wrong! If they don’t (and probably won’t) recover the boat, then we’ll probably never know if it were mechanical failure, driver error or a design flaw with a PROTOTYPE (less than 5 built) boat! We all read the posts the day before, so speculation is not only going to happen, it’s completely warranted!!!!! We were reading the posts the day before remember. Didn’t you edit several of your posts? Were you ashamed of what you said? Not man enough to stand behind your words?
Hopefully this tragic series of events plays out through your mind when you try to open a can of whoop ass on somebody when you’ve had a few to drink and the conditions might not be quite right!
Any time lives are lost, especially in motor sports, a thorough investigation and sometimes speculation should be used to EDUCATE those continuing the sport TO NOT HAVE THIS HAPPEN AGAIN! Shit happens, but stupid shit shouldn’t.
[This message has been edited by HaulinAZZ (edited January 20, 2002).]

gigamurph
01-20-2002, 09:11 PM
[This message has been edited by HaulinAZZ (edited january 20, 2002).]
What was it you said? Oh yeah. "Were you ashamed of what you said? Not man enough to stand behind your words?" RD2, by no means needs me or anyone else to defend him, but give ME a break! Still no definitive conclusions as to what happened; or what was being worn by the men; or if the weather conditions had anything to do with what happened. This is just what I was talking about in MY posts! This kind of talk is insensitive to the feelings of the bereaved, counter-productive, and at best, 95% BS! If you are on the investigative team, I hope you are able to come to a viable conclusion of what occurred that day; but why are you posting your "findings" here? Wouldn't they be better suited to appear in an official report first? If you're not on the investigative team, go away and come back when you have something that resembles some sort of compassion! INSENSITIVITY is not what is needed right now! Not from you, me, or anyone else! Have a heart!

SPECTRA77
01-20-2002, 09:30 PM
I TOTALLY AGREE WITH HAULINAZZ ON EVERYTHING HE HAS SAID, FOR THE PAST WEEK I'VE COME ON HERE TO SEE WHAT HAS BEEN SAID, AND THE ONLY THING I SEE IS A BUNCH OF GUYS WHO REALLY DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT BOATING, THIS IS MY FIRST TIME SAYING SOMETHING ON HERE BUT IT'S REALLY STARTING TO GET TO ME. I'VE BEEN BOATING ALL OF MY 33 YEARS I GO TO CASTAIC AT LEAST 3-4 TIMES A MONTH DURING SUMMERTIME AND HAVASU OR PARKER THE OTHER TIMES AND I'M SICK AND TIRED OF PEOPLE THAT CAN FINANCE A 50,000+ DOLLAR BOAT AND NEVER FIGURE HOW TO DRIVE SAFELY. I REALLY HOPE THEY DO CHANGE THE LAWS BECAUSE OF THIS. AGAIN HATS OFF TO HAULINAZZ, SOME OF US ARE WITH YOU.

gigamurph
01-20-2002, 09:59 PM
JESUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Doug The Jeweler
01-21-2002, 01:01 AM
Gigamurph,
Your really full of yourself.Enough said!

HaulinAZZ
01-21-2002, 05:40 AM
Gigamurph,
Someday you may grow up and leave the "It's not my fault" philosophy behind and start thinking about responsibility and accountability. Put your personal feeling aside and start looking at the tragedy with objective eyes. Wake up!
[This message has been edited by HaulinAZZ (edited January 21, 2002).]

bigorangefan
01-21-2002, 07:33 AM
no soap box here, but the last time I read the constitution of the United States it provides "freedom of speech" to all. I spent 4 years defending that right, hope it was not for nothing. I also feel as some of you do that this may not be the time or place to post "opinions" but I must say again everyone here has the right to "theirs", right or wrong. Our prayers are with all involved in this time of sorrow.
Chris

25 Eagle
01-21-2002, 07:38 AM
I've got to agree with alot of what HaulinAZZ has to say. Why anyone would "test" there other than close proximity is beyond me. Does owning or building hot boats make you exempt from the law? Weather you agree with the posted speed or not it's still there. I guess it only applies to some, from what I read. I could go on and on but who the hell cares. We'll find out more when it's lawsuit time.

Backfire
01-21-2002, 08:57 AM
I believe that this board WILL recieve heavy traffic from HTM's insurance companies, insurance investigators, and the lawyers that represent those insurance companies. It could be a very valuable resource in not only gauging hard facts (like MRPUMPS last posts!) but also in gauging boating community sentiment and attitudes about the known or percieved factors which contributed to this tragedy.
We should all be willing to acknowlege that being well over the speed limit and an alleged apparent lack of safety gear are likely to make this a hard incident for the insurers to settle without a fight.
It's important that OTHER boating insurers that might read this board understand that most of us see the perils that this incident represents and do not use our boats to the extremes that they are tested for.

HaulinAZZ
01-21-2002, 10:57 AM
I'll get off my soap box now. None of these posts were meant to disrespect anyone! The intention was to make people think! I was starting to think it was time to sell my boat! The tragedy is over but the problems for those left behind are just beginning as a few others are starting to point out. Boats are just hunks of plastic & metal that can be replaced. Lives are lost FOREVER!
Boat smart and you'll wind up boating safe!

RiverDave2
01-21-2002, 11:07 AM
Nice.... Very nice to see this monday morning.
Originally posted by HaulinAZZ:
[B]River Dave,
Originally posted by HaulinAZZ:
I guess my point wasn't taken so I'll explain it a little better.
What happened was tragic to say the least.
Let's not speculate. We'll just state what's known.
We had 4 people in a boat not wearing PFD's or Helmets running a boat somewhere between 2-4 times the LEGAL speed limit on a short narrow lake during a high wind advisory. They aren't coming home again!!!
HaulinAzz, first off ATLEAST one of the 4 DID have a PFD on. Secondly I wouldn't put to much stock into what the "eye witness accounts" at Castaic were. During that time of the day there's mostly fisherman on the lake and as soon as they see/hear a blower motor (or two) it's instantly doing 80mph to them.
Thirdly and most importantly, Where do you get off with the "Short & Narrow" Lake routine? Castaic is a pretty "F'n" big lake! Where are you used to boating? The Ocean? I usually go to Parker and that's a "Narrow" piece of strip where 100mph passes are often layed down. How much more room do you want before you think it's safe?
Point 1:4 People were killed in a crash and all of their bodies were recovered without a trace of safety gear.
Uh... Yeah, sure thing bud.. I'll repeat myself again, Ken Lane was found "Near his PFD."
Point 2: Witnesses claim the boats speed to be about 80 MPH. I gave them the benefit of the doubt and said 2-4 times the speed limit (70-140) which is the slowest speed I can imagine a 30" cat getting upside down for any reason. 140MPH is 10 MPH slower than the speed reported the day before (by the chest pounding mrpumps).
70mph is the SLOWEST you can imagine a 30' cat going over for any reason.. Ok.. I could rip on you all day long for that statement alone, but if that's the slowest speed you can imagine any 30' Cat particularly one with alot of freeboard and a High CG (Center of Gravity). I'd be willing to bet you haven't spent a whole lot of time in 26'+ Cats.. And if you have then I invite you the next time you get up to about 60mph YOU GO AHEAD and do a couple of Hard Left and Right Turns.. I'll go ahead and watch from a distance.. http://free.***boat.net/ubb/wink.gif Make sure you wear a PFD becuase YOU WILL END UP IN THE DRINK.. Now I'm not saying that this was the case with the HTM, but you could couple in a Tie Rod failure and a Hydraulics failure or an seized engine and you can get that boat to go over at fairly low speeds. (Once again I'm not saying this was the case with the HTM, slow/fast speeds, or parts failure)
Point 3: There was a high wind advisory that day, I was in the area at the time of the accident and the wind was ripping!
They were plenty aware of the winds on that day. I talked to Chuck on the phone right before it happened and he was telling me that "It was windy as F*** out here today." This is also the reason why I know they weren't out doing any 140mph passes.
Point 4: I've been on Castaic plenty of times. Only once with Steve and triple digit speeds is something that lake isn't suited for!
Now this is DEFINATELY a matter of opinion. I think that lake is MORE THEN FINE for Triple digit passes, and it's plenty wide! I invite you to spend some time in Parker.. That River Gets no wider then 350-400' in some places and I remind you that there is no speed limit set. So is it safe? I seem to think so, which brings me to your screen name....
HaulinAzz... Not Likely.
Point 5: The 35 MPH speed limit exists whether you or any other user of the lake agrees with it. It's like the speed limit on my street. If I think it's too slow and disobey it. I risk the possibility of getting a ticket. If I get too many tickets I lose my driving privileges. Get it???? Or do you have a problem with maturity and responsibility too?? If I break the law (speed) and hurt somebody, they usually consider it criminal. Did you ever hear of involuntary manslaughter??? When I was young and dumb I used to speed on the streets, thump my chest and act like a Jackass in general. I guess I was just lucky enough to grow up and start acting like a responsible adult before I got hurt, or even more tragic, hurt somebody else. Why don't you take your speed grievances to the authorities about Castaic. I'm sure they'd be more than willing to raise the speed limits now, right slick?
HaulinAZZ, Castaic for a LONG TIME has had a more or less "Don't see, don't tell" attitude about high speed passes at "Speed Alley." How do you think it got the name? If you were making these passes right in front of patrol boats they might Talk to ya, and or even kick you off the lake.. However from a distance sometimes it's better to just... Check there watch to see what time it is.
As far as if I have a problem with responsibillity and accountibillity? I think the word maturity were thrown in there somewhere as well.. My response would have to be (drum roll please) I'm not the one that just made this issue personal. Please don't use this event to grind whatever axe you have with me. You come on "preaching" about responsibillity, accountibillity, and maturity and are implying somehow that the people in the boat that day were lacking those qualities (that's bitchin for the families to read that as well I might add) and then some how swing full circle back to me and claim I lack those qualities becuase I disagree with you? Becuase I'm trying to be a little more sensitive to the feelings of the families of those lost? I don't think that there was any other intention that I had other then that.. (and not that he needs me to stand up for him, but Gigamurph either).. so why did you make this personal assault on me?
I believe you and Bigorangefan, were "preaching" freedom of speach, and telling old Gigamurph who made him the board god? So if I dissagree with you and excersize that right now I'm lacking in those three qualities? As well as ridiculing Gigamurph for excersizing the same right that your preaching about? When all he did was post how he felt? I think perhaps you should really look in the mirror before you start throwing jabs at someones character. Later in your post you mentioned being "Young and Dumb" near as I can tell nothing has changed but the #.
Is there something here you think is untrue or disagree with???
I don't know if it's untrue, true and no I don't necesarrily dissagree with any of it. I'm just saying that you DON'T KNOW for sure. I could put up theories all day long, and believe me I have mine, and I'd be more then happy to run them by you, as well as listen to yours on the subject as I am genuinely interested in what they are.. I'm just wondering if this is the right place to do it? Your more then welcome to shoot an e-mail my way if you'd like to talk about it, it certainly will make you feel better about the tragic events. I don't even mind if you unload on me and call me what you like or imply certain things about me, I'd just appreciate that you didn't do it in here. However becuase of your "freedom of speech" I suppose you can do what you like, but I beg of you don't just think of yourself here, think of all the others whom are suffering and really don't want to hear you.
I don't think I've speculated at all.
I'd be more then happy to debate that with you via e-mail.
If I WERE to speculate I would say that from the chest thumping that mrpumps was doing the day before. The group talked about the doubting souls regarding the speeds they achieved the day before. As a group, I would speculate they discussed all the immature name throwing that went their way and decided to show us all! The egos had to be raging! I wouldn?t be surprised if they took a camera to photograph the GPS and post it for all to see on the web. Something then went terribly wrong! If they don?t (and probably won?t) recover the boat, then we?ll probably never know if it were mechanical failure, driver error or a design flaw with a PROTOTYPE (less than 5 built) boat! We all read the posts the day before, so speculation is not only going to happen, it?s completely warranted!!!!! We were reading the posts the day before remember.
In one part of this post your saying that you didn't speculate, but now you are saying that the speculation (implying your speculations) are completely warranted.
Didn?t you edit several of your posts? Were you ashamed of what you said? Not man enough to stand behind your words?
No, I'm not ashamed of what I said, and Yes I am man enough to stand by my words. The reason that I edited ALL of my posts regarding HTM's Boats was out of respect for the families. I knew that it wouldn't be long before they came in here to seek comfort and support, and I really didn't think that they wanted to read my views on HTM boats, or about any misunderstanding between myself and Mr.Pumps.. (actually his brother in law). So I took them down. It was all fun and games and I admit that I gave HTMRacing my fair share of sh*t, but it was more or less in a joking manner. Things stopped being funny as soon as that accident occurred. So I did what in my mind was the right thing.
Hopefully this tragic series of events plays out through your mind when you try to open a can of whoop ass on somebody when you?ve had a few to drink and the conditions might not be quite right!
HaulinAZZ, don't lecture me like that. As far as some people are concerned there is no "right" conditions to open a can of whoop ass or drink in a boat. I happen to have extremely different views on both of those subjects.. Once again I'd be more then happy to share them with you just not in here. Start a topic in HotSpots or elsewhere on the board and I'll debate it with you all day long.
Any time lives are lost, especially in motor sports, a thorough investigation and sometimes speculation should be used to EDUCATE those continuing the sport TO NOT HAVE THIS HAPPEN AGAIN! Shit happens, but stupid shit shouldn?t.
Things happen in boats... If you have been boating for a long time then you come to grips with that and understand.. even embrace it. Comments like your last one, Your "closer" if you will "Shit happens, but stupid shit shouldn't." is very true. However if your implying that what happened to these four guys happened becuase of "stupid" behavior then I would say your speculating. I agree stupid shit shouldn't for example some jack ass know it all throwing around his free speach rights in the faces of mourning families...
ONE LAST THING... Free speach only goes so far bud.. This board ISN'T real life, perhaps that's why your so immune on your feelings.. Your CIVIL RIGHTS really don't mean jack sh*t around here. If the tribe votes that your an asshole, then your an asshole. That's pretty much all there is to it.. No Ex presidents are going to come running talking about the constitution... Don't kid yourself bud, It's more like the show Survivor whatever the tribe does, the tribe does..
RD

bigorangefan
01-21-2002, 11:33 AM
Riverdave2
it's apparent you didn't read my whole post. "I SAID I DID NOT THINK THIS IS THE TIME OR PLACE TO POST OPINIONS ON THIS EVENT" but anyone that knows anything about the freedom of speech (Weather the hell you like it or not "BUD" gives you or anyone on this board the right to voice their opinion, right or wrong. As much as I disagree with your composition I would defend your right of expression to the "END". I beleive someone said it in another post, this could be debated via e-mail so as to protect the sensitivity of the family.

Slick
01-21-2002, 11:36 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by HaulinAZZ:
I'm sure they'd be more than willing to raise the speed limits now, right slick?
How did I get drug into this?

Hustler
01-21-2002, 11:37 AM
OK I have been following this post from the begining and it turned out to be a big pissing match, if you guys want go into these kind of pissing matches fine, but start another thread. DONT DO IT HERE, HAVE SOME RESPECT.
Hustler

bigorangefan
01-21-2002, 11:46 AM
Hustler; point well taken.

Doug The Jeweler
01-21-2002, 12:24 PM
I believe all this expression is a form of coming to terms with our feelings about what has happened.Sometimes when I get done yelling at my kids I feel much better.The discussion or speculation with any view is an attempt for the people who post to try to point the dangers of high speed boating and some of the things to protect yourself from injury.I'm sure that any of the familys would welcome this speculation if they knew that it was done to warn fellow boaters.4 people is enough people to lose if one more person is saved by our imput I'm sure the family members who lost their loved ones would take no offense and even welcome the heads up or any speculation.Lets get back to speculation and brainstorm the possibilities.I started this post not knowing a thing for sure.I just repeated what I heard.I have learned a great deal about the accident and Lake Castaic.Nothing wrong with that.It has allerted me to check my equiptment and wear my PFD's all the time.It is for my families sake.I want to be able to grow oldand play with my grandkids so I can spoil them as only I know how to do.Doug The Jeweler

RiverDave2
01-21-2002, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by Hustler:
OK I have been following this post from the begining and it turned out to be a big pissing match, if you guys want go into these kind of pissing matches fine, but start another thread. DONT DO IT HERE, HAVE SOME RESPECT.
Hustler
I agree as well. I apologize for even getting involved in it. I think I'm also going to take a little "break" from the boards for a while.
RD
[This message has been edited by RiverDave2 (edited January 21, 2002).]

gigamurph
01-21-2002, 01:48 PM
I agree totally with you Hustler! This tfread has degraded into a personal attack-filled pissing contest; and it stings when I realize the lack of compassion that is still rampant in our lives. I AM NOT ATTEMPTING TO STIFLE ANYONES' RIGHTS TO FREE SPEECH! I was simply pleading for a little COMPASSION and RESPECT for the FAMILIES of the 4 men we will not have the pleasure of their companionship again. Just put yourselves in the families' places and ask yourself if you would like to hear some idiotic statements being made as to the compitence, intelligence, or abilities of your lost one. I don't think you would like it at all! I know I wouldn't; and that's what I based my posts on. I try to treat others the way I would like for them to treat me. Like I said, go ahead and dazzle us with theories; it's your right! Myself, I think I'll show a little more compassion and consideration of the bereaved.
Sadly though, I can't close without saying one thing; I may be full of myself, which I sincerely hope that I am, but at least it's better than what you guys are full of! My apologies to all!
...and RD2, what do you mean "old Gigamurph"?

gigamurph
01-21-2002, 01:56 PM
...and RD2, if you're taking a break from the boards for personal reasons, to enjoy life, find that "right girl", whatever, go with my blessings. But if you're going because of some of the stuff that is going on here, I, and I'm sure there are others that hope you don't! You can't let this crap get you down. I know you, not much, but enough to know that you are a stand-up, up-front guy and I guarentee you, there are alot of people that share your sentiments. Don't let the dogs get you down! "da gig"

Hustler
01-21-2002, 01:58 PM
Guy's, I just want to thank you and let you know that I'm not saying you cant say what you want just have a little respect for the family and friends involved. So please if must continue start a new thread. DTJ I understand that you started this thread for information pertaining to this tragic event so lets keep it that way, I dont want you guys to misunderstand me I love all the pissing matches that go no here thats half the reason I come here to read. Anyway thank you for keeping this thread as it should be.
Hustler
[This message has been edited by Hustler (edited January 21, 2002).]

Doug The Jeweler
01-21-2002, 02:22 PM
If someone could use a rest from the board its Gigamurph.I feel he is the one that really stired up the post to a point of a pissing match.

RiverDave2
01-21-2002, 02:39 PM
One last post before I take my "break".... I'll have you know I was going to accuracy, not distance..
RD

Thunderbutt
01-21-2002, 03:15 PM
I think Doug the Jeweler is right on speculating. Most of the time the problems we have with our boats are solved this way. I went upside down twice (once at Castic in 1980)Only one time do I realy know what happened. the other time was all speculation. I still own the same boat and every time I race someone I think about that time.

Racing Ray
01-21-2002, 03:47 PM
Wow! Lots going on since I visited this thread last. This is my first post on this entire subject matter so I will get my nickles worth.
First of all to those that hold up their right to free speech as allowing them to say anything they care to on a message board or a chat room for that matter.
BS!! The Supreme Court has upheld the rights of the Webmaster to determine what he sees fit for his site. He does own the "Domain" and as such you agree to give up your personal rights and freedoms to enter his domain PERIOD!! If you don't like his rules you are "Free" not to come back. Those are the freedoms some of us have fought for! This is not America it is the World Wide Web!
***boat and ***boat alone will decide what belongs here and what does not!
As to the tragedy at Castaic. I think I agree with some respect to almost every post here. Something like this will affect everyone of us in a very personal but differant way.
Some of us will have a feeling that we must protect others from something as this happening to them.
Some of us will rethink some of the behaviour we have displayed on the lakes in times past. Perhaps some of the stunts we have pulled and gotten away with.
Some are going to worry that this tragedy will will lose them some of their hard fought for personal freedoms. It can do that no doubt.
I can't speak for Steve, Ken, Nelson, or MrPumps but I can say that if it were me that had been involved in an accident such as this I would hope others would learn from it.
Was it equipment failure? Or Conditions? Lack of safety equipment or lack of responsible actions? Right now there is not even one of you that have a clue! If the boat is not brought up we may never have one.
Speculation is all that is available at this time. This can be of use to some and can cause hurt to others. I just hope we are all adult enough to use disgression on how we post our feelings to minimize causing more grief to the loved ones we know are reading this thread.
The petty arguements that continue on serves no purpose but to cause further harm. I say let the man or woman get their personal feelings out and leave it at that!
No one has asked you to agree with them just hear what they have to say! It is not their right but it is their way of dealing with thier own personal grief.

Doug The Jeweler
01-21-2002, 03:50 PM
Hey River Dave
One last post before I take my "break".... I'll have you know I was going to accuracy, not distance..
Don't go for accuracy or for distance,Just go to Maui and join me and my family on the beach next week.I leave my computer at home and just take a break from the boards.There is one more queen size bed in the condo.Thank of all the "REST" you and your squeeze could get on that.Call me when you get to the airport and we will come and pick you up.Sincerely,Your Cruise Director DTJ

RiverDave2
01-21-2002, 04:37 PM
SSssshhhh.... I'm Lurkin.
RD

gigamurph
01-21-2002, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by Doug The Jeweler:
If someone could use a rest from the board its Gigamurph.I feel he is the one that really stired up the post to a point of a pissing match.If I turned this into a pissing contest by asking for people to respect the families in their time of loss; maybe it is time I take a break. ***boat, just say the word and I'm gone. RD2, wanna get the drums goin'? Anyone else feel this way? Let me know; because I'm not here for this kind of stuff. I don't want it and I don't need it! Just say the word and I'm gone! I was just hoping for a little compassion in a time of sorrow. Peace to you all!

Fufu Queen
01-21-2002, 07:53 PM
RD, GiG and Hustler. Love to all, you guys are the real deal, thank you for being concerned for the families and friends.
Think from the heart not your fingers. I think we all know what happens when we assume.
Godspeed to the families that have to say good bye.
Respect what we have and never forget. I think a few of the boys out here need to think before they type.
Boating is a wonderful sport just like with anything there is a risk. And we all know what we put on the line. I just wanted to jump out here and say live, love and never ever forget. Also, remember that you’re words follow you.

JETBOAT BRIAN
01-21-2002, 07:57 PM
Gig, I am with ya bro, I applaud those who would put the feelings of the loved ones left behind first. I have been quiet about this because I feel everyone has a right to their own opinion.I wonder how the armchair quarterbacks would feel if it were their family in a similar position!

JETBOAT BRIAN
01-21-2002, 07:58 PM
Gig, I am with ya bro, I applaud those who would put the feelings of the loved ones left behind first. I have been quiet about this because I feel everyone has a right to their own opinion.I wonder how the armchair quarterbacks would feel if it were their family in a similar position!

waterbum
01-21-2002, 07:59 PM
I've decided to comply with the GOLDEN RULE as far as this thread goes but will shurly join in on a good pissen match elswhere.Your right Fufu,your hateful words and actions guy's will surely follow you far from these boards.Bum http://free.***boat.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif
[This message has been edited by waterbum (edited January 21, 2002).]

Triple Digits HTM
01-21-2002, 08:04 PM
Exactly, leave the Monday night quarter backing to the replay officials in the booth.....Just absorb what happened and think how you can insure your family and friends stay safe and leave it at that!!!

HaulinAZZ
01-21-2002, 08:47 PM
Peace to all and safe boating this summer! I just traded my 100 MPH rated jackets for REAL LifeLines! Probably wear Brain buckets at big events too!

Doug The Jeweler
01-21-2002, 09:49 PM
Gigamurph,This discussion was just that before you butted in and had to drag a non existant problem about someones feelings.We were only talking about possible senarios of the crash.Your comment was taken as an insult because it was one!We only posted things about safety and what went wrong.Then you"THE Father" decided we should shut up.Please start a new link and recommend that there.I was insulted by your post because you took an inocent discussion about safety and what might have went wrong with the HTM crash and turn it in to a fight.You should be ashamed of yourself.Go back and read your post and put yourself in our place!.It has no place here.I have tried to tell you in a pleasant way and you don't get the hint.DON'T TELL US WHAT TO DO!Period!We have insulted no one except YOU.Go hang out with the Pope as you have first hand moral knowledge.Let us alone to discuss safety and possible problems that could have happened to the HTM Boat Crash.Up till your involvment, that is all that went on.Believe me it is in your best interest to pay attention to the post.We are talking about things that might give you a heads up and may save your own life unless you are perfect.I have been over the 100 mph with several boats for 15 + years and I learned something from the speculation.If you shut and read instead of trying to silence us ,none of this would have happened.You must feel guilty about you said or did to Steve or his friends.UNTIL YOU REMARKS, WE HAD A PEACFUL POST.DON'T TAKE YOUR GUILT ON US.
[This message has been edited by Doug The Jeweler (edited January 21, 2002).]

Doug The Jeweler
01-21-2002, 10:01 PM
Now I'm taking a rest myself.River Dave the Maui offer is still on.Good night

MellowYelloW
01-22-2002, 12:35 PM
hey guys...the story i heard (and i am not saying that this is what i believe just what i heard) please correct me if i am wrong..they went out that day to make a 150-160 mph run...there was little to no interior in the boat and they ran some where around 150 and the right drive blew off the boat and caused the boat to flip in some way...this is what i have heard..if anyone knows anything close to the truth please inform me...
thanks alot
brian

HTM Lady
01-22-2002, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by MellowYelloW:
hey guys...the story i heard (and i am not saying that this is what i believe just what i heard) please correct me if i am wrong..they went out that day to make a 150-160 mph run...there was little to no interior in the boat and they ran some where around 150 and the right drive blew off the boat and caused the boat to flip in some way...this is what i have heard..if anyone knows anything close to the truth please inform me...
thanks alot
brian
We dont know the truth about the accident and probably never will. Yes there was mechanical error. We just dont know what.The speed I would say is inaccurate due to the closeness to both docks.Unfortantely this tragic event of fate took 4 men that were all very loved. Please to everyone lets keep speculation to a minimum due to our families that are left to deal with this.
Thanks

HTM Lady
01-22-2002, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by HaulinAZZ:
River Dave,
Originally posted by HaulinAZZ:
I guess my point wasn't taken so I'll explain it a little better.
What happened was tragic to say the least.
Let's not speculate. We'll just state what's known.
We had 4 people in a boat not wearing PFD's or Helmets running a boat somewhere between 2-4 times the LEGAL speed limit on a short narrow lake during a high wind advisory. They aren't coming home again!!!
Point 1:4 People were killed in a crash and all of their bodies were recovered without a trace of safety gear.
Point 2: Witnesses claim the boats speed to be about 80 MPH. I gave them the benefit of the doubt and said 2-4 times the speed limit (70-140) which is the slowest speed I can imagine a 30" cat getting upside down for any reason. 140MPH is 10 MPH slower than the speed reported the day before (by the chest pounding mrpumps).
Point 3: There was a high wind advisory that day, I was in the area at the time of the accident and the wind was ripping!
Point 4: I've been on Castaic plenty of times. Only once with Steve and triple digit speeds is something that lake isn't suited for!
Point 5: The 35 MPH speed limit exists whether you or any other user of the lake agrees with it. It's like the speed limit on my street. If I think it's too slow and disobey it. I risk the possibility of getting a ticket. If I get too many tickets I lose my driving privileges. Get it???? Or do you have a problem with maturity and responsibility too?? If I break the law (speed) and hurt somebody, they usually consider it criminal. Did you ever hear of involuntary manslaughter??? When I was young and dumb I used to speed on the streets, thump my chest and act like a Jackass in general. I guess I was just lucky enough to grow up and start acting like a responsible adult before I got hurt, or even more tragic, hurt somebody else. Why don't you take your speed grievances to the authorities about Castaic. I'm sure they'd be more than willing to raise the speed limits now, right slick?
Is there something here you think is untrue or disagree with???
I don't think I've speculated at all.
If I WERE to speculate I would say that from the chest thumping that mrpumps was doing the day before. The group talked about the doubting souls regarding the speeds they achieved the day before. As a group, I would speculate they discussed all the immature name throwing that went their way and decided to show us all! The egos had to be raging! I wouldn’t be surprised if they took a camera to photograph the GPS and post it for all to see on the web. Something then went terribly wrong! If they don’t (and probably won’t) recover the boat, then we’ll probably never know if it were mechanical failure, driver error or a design flaw with a PROTOTYPE (less than 5 built) boat! We all read the posts the day before, so speculation is not only going to happen, it’s completely warranted!!!!! We were reading the posts the day before remember. Didn’t you edit several of your posts? Were you ashamed of what you said? Not man enough to stand behind your words?
Hopefully this tragic series of events plays out through your mind when you try to open a can of whoop ass on somebody when you’ve had a few to drink and the conditions might not be quite right!
Any time lives are lost, especially in motor sports, a thorough investigation and sometimes speculation should be used to EDUCATE those continuing the sport TO NOT HAVE THIS HAPPEN AGAIN! Shit happens, but stupid shit shouldn’t.
[This message has been edited by HaulinAZZ (edited January 20, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by HTM Lady (edited January 22, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by HTM Lady (edited January 22, 2002).]

Doug The Jeweler
01-22-2002, 02:05 PM
igamurph,
Someday you may grow up and leave the "It's not my fault" philosophy behind and start thinking about responsibility and accountability. Put your personal feeling aside and start looking at the tragedy with objective eyes. Wake up!
[This message has been edited by HaulinAZZ (edited January 21, 2002).]

RiverDave2
01-22-2002, 02:06 PM
HTM Lady, I'm so sorry that you had to read that and I'm sure a couple of other posts..
RD

Hustler
01-22-2002, 02:31 PM
Doug the Jeweler/HaulinAZZ, not sure who you really are but maybe you can explain why your post are being edited by HaulinAZZ.
DTJ, I think the point that GIG was making is that your speculation of the accident has an effect on the friends and families involved, so with that in mind why dont you just leave it alone? your speculations and theory's of what might have happened can turn into rumours or more that could be detrimental to HTM and the families. So drop it before the tribal drums start beating.
Hustler

HaulinAZZ
01-22-2002, 03:04 PM
DTJ isn't editing my posts. He is copying and pasting though.

ROZ
01-22-2002, 03:16 PM
Hustler,
I was suspicious to this too, but it looks as if he tried to make a respond with a quote, and screwed up....
I do agree with your post. All this speculating kind of sucks.

gigamurph
01-22-2002, 08:46 PM
Folks, I would like to apologize to all of you! Especially HTMLady and family, the Coulombe family, the Weisman family, the Lane family, and the Brinkman family, and all their friends. I just read some of the speculation, theories, and comments directed at the four brothers that were making me wince when I read them and could only imagine what the families and friends were feeling. I lost my Dad suddenly 4 1/2 years ago and I know that I couldn't take people talking about him, much less what had happened to him for quite sometime. I feel terribly for those that are going through this. I set here and I wish I could make this whole thing; tragedy, their sorrow, and this "pitiful" thread go away. I'm sorry. I was only trying to head off some grief in respect of the families and friends. I'm sorry. I will sign off by thanking all of you for your concern and kind words for the bereaved and on my behalf. MAY GOD KEEP AND BLESS YOU ALL!
[This message has been edited by gigamurph (edited January 22, 2002).]

LeadFootTheRabbit
01-22-2002, 11:49 PM
Hey Gig, what your saying is good and it is heart felt. Like you and everyone else on this board my heart and thoughts go out to the families and friends affected by this tragedy. We show our love by sharing our thoughts here online, getting with Brian and HTM vinyl, sending cards and letters and pitching in a few dollars to the memorial fund. This is all good.
Thing is, if people want to speculate, theorize or discuss what may or may not have happened, let them. Nobody means disrespect to the families. This is a boat forum and that is the common thread we all come here for.
When I first heard the news on ABC news I logged on to the board to see what info was available. I too was stunned, but I also wanted to know why. HaulinAZZ and Spectra77 make some good points and comments. I for one am glad they did. They said the things alot of were thinking but didn't because we too wanted to be sensitive to others. Its been well over a week now and the rest of us have our lives to live so lets get on with it.
May GOD look upon the Families and Friends of HTM
LDFTRBT

HaulinAZZ
01-23-2002, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by LeadFootTheRabbit:
Hey Gig, what your saying is good and it is heart felt. Like you and everyone else on this board my heart and thoughts go out to the families and friends affected by this tragedy.
Thing is, if people want to speculate, theorize or discuss what may or may not have happened, let them. Nobody means disrespect to the families. This is a boat forum and that is the common thread we all come here for.
LDFTRBT
Gig,
As LFTR points out, this is a Hot Boat forum.
Again, no disrespect to anyone but remember this.If a TV, Radio, magazine, newspaper or web based discussion board topic, offends, disgusts, sickens , saddens or bothers you for any reason. Then don't buy, read, watch or log onto them. It's really quite that simple

Don Berry
01-23-2002, 06:54 PM
from the family of Nelson Brinkman; we thank you for all the prayers and good things said about him. he was a young man with big dreams.he took a lot of pride in his family and work. our thoughts and prayers go out to the wives and children of the other 3 men. as far as the boat wreckage, it will all come out. i would like to address this comment to Charley: i think it was very in-sensitive of you to show up at Castaic the day after the 4 men were killed wearing a t-shirt reading CORONER!!!!!! you must have some big balls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!enjoy your life! Nelson's mother

HaulinAZZ
01-23-2002, 07:17 PM
Nelson Brinkmans Family and all others who have suffered losses,
Good luck in finding answers to your questions!
To everyone afraid to ask the questions, How & Why? Have you ever stopped for one moment to consider that the loved ones left behind may be asking the same questions?????????????????
My sincere condolences!

Doug The Jeweler
01-23-2002, 08:59 PM
Maybe.
A corner T-shirt may help him get closer than anyone else at the lake to help us find out answers to our questions.I'm sure no one would have intentionaly disrespected the families.Could there be a misunderstanding?I would like to hear the reason for the Shirt.I wear Event Management T-Shirt to get myself into areas in a car race that are off limits to most.If it was meant to disrespect then shame on you!

01Lightning
01-23-2002, 09:34 PM
Enough!

Fufu Queen
01-23-2002, 09:50 PM
HaulinAZZ and DTJ: I just hope that if something tragic happens to the both of you that People don’t speculate and assume, as you have done. I think it quite rude, not that its not true that this is an open forum for discussion but have a little respect and discipline and until you can walk on water, you should wait and be a shoulder for the people that need us.

C-Ya
01-23-2002, 11:26 PM
DTJ,
It appears as though your are always looking for some form of altercation while posting on the many different boards or in person. Why? I have also seen you at one of the Poker Runs whereas someone mistakenly took your beach spot so you let everybody for as far as "the ear could hear" your unexcusable obsenities, including my children! (you should hear what was said behind your back after that blunder) Have you ever wondered why so many of your posts on the Arizona Hot Boat site goes un-answered? I am sure that you will want to try to blast the crap out of me for being brutally honest, but maybe you should step back and take a look at your self.
Remember, fighting on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even if you win....you are still retarded!
So the next time that you feel like dragging some internet argument throught twenty some-odd posts...go look in the mirror and repeat the next two lines:
"I am so we todd did"
"I am sofa-king we todd did"
P.S. Just in case you are unaware, at the end of a sentence, there should be a space after the period. (some do a double space) It would help in making your posts more easily readable and help quell your reputation as the "Village Idiot"
Respectfully
C-Ya

Doug The Jeweler
01-23-2002, 11:44 PM
You are right C-ya.I'll change.Thanks for reminding me.I look to you for guidance.Doug

Infomaniac
01-10-2009, 01:21 PM
Tomorrow the anniversary of that terrible day