Sunk the Boat

[later]

Well this has been a bad weekend.Was at piru this saturday and making a turn,before I knew it i had just done a 180 degree flip.My cable broke on my jet,imagine that.I allmost when down with the boat due to my leg getting cought between my jet shifter and seat that had been torn off it's mount's.Thank God my two kid's are ok aswell as my friend and myself.My next step is to get the boat out of the lake.Does anybody know about this proceedure? and the cost?.Is it worth it?.My mind is so bent right now and today it just beginning to hit me and man I just can't believe this happen'ed and might I say so quickly.I need some help.Thanks John Case

[BajaMike]

Bummer....glad you are all OK.
The lake patrol or marina vendor should be able to refer you to a salvage service.

[squirt'nmyload]

dude....how many times have you sunk you boat?????? i saw this post a month ago..wtf????? did you never get it the last time

[core attitude]

dude....how many times have you sunk you boat?????? i saw this post a month ago..wtf?????
That's what I was thinking??????? Must be a forum glitch or something.

[ChumpChange]

This thread is in Hot Spots West but from a long time ago. He was supposed to get it this past weekend. Was it all a hoax?

[core attitude]

The original thread is still going here (http://www.***boat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120329) in Hot Spots West.

[BajaMike]

The original thread is still going here (http://www.***boat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120329) in Hot Spots West.
Very strange...it is the exact same post.....
:idea:

[FREIND OF AA AND TA]

WTF??? Mabe it's another one. That would be different.

[RiverDave]

I think somehow it got mis-posted. I talked to "later" earlier today about possibly having a buddy that might be able to help him out. I also suggested that he post his plight up in the sandbar as there is alot more traffic in here then in hotspots west.
Are there any divers on here that can dive to 115'ish feet ??
RD

[MR HARLEY]

Very glad you and your kids are ok, sorry about your boat.

[Badger301]

Reminds me of that movie...I think Bill Murray was in it ...Groundhog Day I believe....

[Tequila-John]

WOW I was tripping out. This dude sunk his boat over a month agi and was trying to get all this high tech stuff to go search for it. But he needed a diver and dive gear and a dive boat. Sounds wierd to me?
http://www.***boat.net/forums/showthread.php?t=120329

[Hal]

They shut down the forums for about an hour this morning to work on the data base... looks like they screwed something up.

[Tequila-John]

if the boat has been sunk before 7-02-06 would it be a thrashed mess? Would you even want to get it?

[Hotcobra270]

if the boat has been sunk before 7-02-06 would it be a thrashed mess? Would you even want to get it?
Can he just leave the boat there?

[rrrr]

Are there any divers on here that can dive to 115'ish feet ??
RD
Sounds a bit dangerous to me.......

[RiverDave]

if the boat has been sunk before 7-02-06 would it be a thrashed mess? Would you even want to get it?
The boat should be fine for the most part I would think?
He's got the sonar capabillities to locate the boat, and he's going to drop an anchor with a line and a bouie to mark it's location. At this point all he really needs is someone to dive down and hook a line to the bow eye of of the boat. The rest of it should be pretty simple.
That's why he needs a diver that can dive 115'ish feet.
RD

[RiverDave]

Sounds a bit dangerous to me.......
I dunno shit about Diving, but it does sound pretty deep.. Castaic is deeper then that though and I've heard of people doing recoveries up there?
The diver really doesn't have to do anything to the boat other then hook a line to the bow eye.. (I realize I'm making this sound simplar then it is in zero visibillity water)
RD

[later]

Hey guys please don't trash me.Not nice.Yes the boat has been in since the 4th of july weekend.I would of had it out by now but the exspense of it all is something I cannot afford.Luckly I have found a couple of good people out there that are willing to help.Between money and work it has been hard to make this happen and that includes money.I have had to wait this out and as much as I would like to see this happen it's been hard to know this awaits to be brought up.Why would someone think this is a hoex,it's not.Just looking for help so I don't have to spend ton's of money.I want my boat back and I don,t think it is thrashed.Please don't trash this thread and sorry if I had made any of you think diffrently.I was told this may be a better forum to go on,maybe I might find the right help I need so I don't tear my boat up as it comes up or put myself or any body in danger.Thank you.John Case

[FREIND OF AA AND TA]

I have been down 100 feet and was so narced it was crazy! Best buzz I ever had. There is no way I could find a boat that loaded.

[Froggystyle]

I'll be your Huckleberry....
I just talked it over with my partner Craig (also a former SEAL) and if you want to go mid week, pay for the lifting bags and rental of the better gear than I have, I'll get that thing on a trailer for you.
I can hit 115 without too much drama, especially with Craig at 90 or so hanging out with a buddy line. I looked into renting some lifting bags, but nobody does out here so a 1,000# bag is $269. I cut a deal with the guy at the shop to buy two of them and if I don't use the second one he will take it back for me. It would be easier with two though. You can have the bags afterwards. ;)
Rental will be under $200, but I need some extra tanks to fill the bags, and I need to rent thick rubber for Craig since as a snow-runoff lake I bet the bottom is in the high 40's to 50's. Brrrrrrrrr.
You need to find it though. I am not going to swim my ass around in 48 degree water at 115' and look for the boat. I will have about a 4 minute bottom time, which should be plenty of time to hook the bow, ascend 50 feet or so and hook a bag up. Then, the next lift will be only a 50' dive.
I'm in if he is. I would like to see him get his boat back.

[squirt'nmyload]

i wasn't trashin ya john...it was just odd to see the exact post reposted a month later.....i know 2 divers here in az that would be thrilled to try to do it but they are here and you are there.

[Froggystyle]

By the way, you own RD a bit of beer for this. He has been blowing up my phone trying to get me to go do it.

[later]

Can you give a total on what you need and I will get it.Thursday of next week I have a day off,yea!.As far as the beer,not a problem.Just need a money figure.Thank you so very much.John

[later]

What is the story with rope or cable? to lift the boat.

[Tequila-John]

Can you give a total on what you need and I will get it.Thursday of next week I have a day off,yea!.As far as the beer,not a problem.Just need a money figure.Thank you so very much.John
Nice buddy I hope you get the boat back. Also i was not trashing you. Just odd the same exact post showed up a month later sorry about your boat and good luck....

[Froggystyle]

What is the story with rope or cable? to lift the boat.
I've got rope that will work. That boat won't actually weigh that much under water believe it or not.
Archemedes principle states that an object partially or wholely immersed in a fluid will be buoyed up by a force equal to the weight of the water displaced. Essentially, it will weigh only what it weighs minus the water displaced. Two guys can pick up a full engine under water believe it or not.
I will likely use a couple of ropes though, along with a pair of bags and some lifting bridles I have.

[RiverDave]

I've got rope that will work. That boat won't actually weigh that much under water believe it or not.
Archemedes principle states that an object partially or wholely immersed in a fluid will be buoyed up by a force equal to the weight of the water displaced. Essentially, it will weigh only what it weighs minus the water displaced. Two guys can pick up a full engine under water believe it or not.
I will likely use a couple of ropes though, along with a pair of bags and some lifting bridles I have.
Now that is damn cool of you and Craig to go and do this.. :D I definately want to go to document the occasion if that's alright. :)
RD

[Her454]

Now that is damn cool of you and Craig to go and do this.. :D I definately want to go to document the occasion if that's alright. :)
RD
RD, make sure Wes gets LOTS of rest so he knows who's who before he attempts to do this, he needs it LOL.

[Throttle]

scary... glad you guys are all safe

[Cole Trickle]

This is very cool of Wes and Craig!!! :)
Nice of RD to help organize the extraction!!!
Can we call it code name "Resurrect":D
PS.... Dave what the hell boat is in your siggy? New toy?????

[BajaMike]

I'll be your Huckleberry....
I just talked it over with my partner Craig (also a former SEAL) and if you want to go mid week, pay for the lifting bags and rental of the better gear than I have, I'll get that thing on a trailer for you.
I can hit 115 without too much drama, especially with Craig at 90 or so hanging out with a buddy line. I looked into renting some lifting bags, but nobody does out here so a 1,000# bag is $269. I cut a deal with the guy at the shop to buy two of them and if I don't use the second one he will take it back for me. It would be easier with two though. You can have the bags afterwards. ;)
Rental will be under $200, but I need some extra tanks to fill the bags, and I need to rent thick rubber for Craig since as a snow-runoff lake I bet the bottom is in the high 40's to 50's. Brrrrrrrrr.
You need to find it though. I am not going to swim my ass around in 48 degree water at 115' and look for the boat. I will have about a 4 minute bottom time, which should be plenty of time to hook the bow, ascend 50 feet or so and hook a bag up. Then, the next lift will be only a 50' dive.
I'm in if he is. I would like to see him get his boat back.
Man, that's a pretty damn cool thing to do..... :cool: :cool:
:cool: :cool:

[BajaMike]

Now that is damn cool of you and Craig to go and do this.. :D I definately want to go to document the occasion if that's alright. :)
RD
Yea....we want pictures!!!
:cool:

[JB in so cal]

Archemedes Principle
Be a great name for a boat :)

[later]

Froggystyle.My Hm#.is 818-368-1960 or work # is 818-842-8346 ext 120.If any body needs to call, here it is.Does the 17th of August sound good for ya all.Just need to confirm the date.Thanks.John Case.P.S. how do I upload pic's so I can post a pic of boat and myself so you know who I am

[Chipster27]

I'll be your Huckleberry....
That is the BOMB! Pay it forward, good things will come back to you. Awesome job Froggystyle.

[Jrocket]

Look for my watch while your down there. :)

[BajaMike]

I'll be your Huckleberry....
RD and Froggy and Craig to the rescue..... :cool:
http://www.avrev.com/gifs/dvdreviews/tombstone.gif
:2purples: :2purples:

[MR HARLEY]

Good stuff Wes and Craig! I would love to see this dive. :)

[Acommanderguy]

Later, you still need to locate the boat right? you haven't located it yet correct me if I am wrong. Also wes does this mean you will be bring out that Bitchin Boat of your or what?

[RiverDave]

RD and Froggy and Craig to the rescue..... :cool:
http://www.avrev.com/gifs/dvdreviews/tombstone.gif
:2purples: :2purples:
Man I don't even think my name deserves to be on there. Wes is the guy swimming into the Abyss to recover the boat. LOL I'm just a guy that made a few phone calls and trying to live up to the "Peoples helping people, one people at a time" bit.
I'll definately cruise along to video the occasion if it's alright with everybody. :)
Wes & Craig are definately the guys of the hour for sure.
RD

[RiverDave]

Froggystyle.My Hm#.is 818-368-1960 or work # is 818-842-8346 ext 120.If any body needs to call, here it is.Does the 17th of August sound good for ya all.Just need to confirm the date.Thanks.John Case.P.S. how do I upload pic's so I can post a pic of boat and myself so you know who I am
e-mail me the pictures at riverdave@rivertoys.com and I'll put them up for you. :)
RD

[Acommanderguy]

I would love to make my way out there to see this myself. Let me know if you guys are going to do this for sure. I can bring some beer and a camera etc..

[later]

I still have to loacate the boat.I have the area that it went down.On thursday morning and before that will be my job to locate and drop the anchor.Any help the better.I am pumped up now.And thanks so much for the quick responce.John Case

[RitcheyRch]

Nice to see something being planned.

[Danhercules]

I know of a guy by the name of Wheeler Dealer that wants to help!! :crossx: :220v: :crossx:
For those of you that dont get the joke, search Just jets.

[Tremor Therapy]

I have an interesting question....why don't you hit up the guys here at ***boat, and see if they would be interested in kicking down some money or help, and then they could document it for the mag? I don't ever remember reading about a sunken boat retrieval in the mag, and it would actually be a very interesting read from a number of perspectives.
1) The damage a boat incurs from the original sinking.
2) The actual equipment and expertise required to retrieve a sunken boat.
3) The damage a boat incurs from actually being down in the water for a period of time.
4) The actual process of re-building once the boat has been recovered.
This would definately make for some interesting reading.....god knows something fresh in the mag would be good for everyone!
Come on ***boat......kick down on some community service!

[Froggystyle]

I am slammed to the gills right now with the show coming up in Phoenix, delivering a boat on Monday/Tuesday in Havasu and possibly showing up to Boardstock up in Clear Lake this next weekend.
I am thinking about the Tuesday the 22nd. I can come up there, give Al Cole Holic a ride and show him the boat and go fetch this thing. Craig rogered up for the 90' spotter position, I need to get the gear together, go for a quick dive with him off La Jolla to a hundy maybe 120 to re-fam myself with my own gear and then be ready to go weight and gear wise for the deal. I have done this a lot, but it has been a little while and I want to get a fam dive in clear water first with Craig.
I have dove to 120 before, and the best way to describe the rapture on air is "Whip-it's" big time. I am probably going to not be working as hard on this dive as I was the last time I was over the bill, so it likely won't be that bad, but first things first.
Before we go buying gear and prepping for the dive, you need to find the boat, drop an anchor damn near on top of it if you can (put a sonar reflector on the anchor line at the end to help you determine if you are on the boat with the anchor) and then we will go from there. I think you are going to have a tough time finding the boat personally, and I need to know to the foot how deep it is. If it is over 120 I really need to go get Heliox or something more exotic, because narcosis is for real, and the bottom time at 120 is around 3 minutes. No time to dick around.
I am in the shop right now, let me know how this sounds to you.

[BajaMike]

I have an interesting question....why don't you hit up the guys here at ***boat, and see if they would be interested in kicking down some money or help, and then they could document it for the mag? I don't ever remember reading about a sunken boat retrieval in the mag, and it would actually be a very interesting read from a number of perspectives.
1) The damage a boat incurs from the original sinking.
2) The actual equipment and expertise required to retrieve a sunken boat.
3) The damage a boat incurs from actually being down in the water for a period of time.
4) The actual process of re-building once the boat has been recovered.
This would definately make for some interesting reading.....god knows something fresh in the mag would be good for everyone!
Come on ***boat......kick down on some community service!
Good idea..... :idea:
:cool:

[stompnstang]

i went all thru this and only had 500 in bags beer gear and all as long as you know the diver find a buddy with a deck boat... few hundered feet of rope a hook and drag untill you find the boat and hook it to get him something to follow down.. i got lucky enuff that my buddy had gps in hand and hit the button as we were going down to mark the area we were... anyhow once he got down and bagged it came up we fired up the gen. and air pump we had on the deck boat to start to bring it up. took two lifts to get it to the top. then had a air gun and a peice of plywood with a gooob of silicon on it plus two basement sump pumps pugged into the gen. started pumping the water out as he went back under and half azzed covered the hole we tied it side to side with the deck. got all get in the boat and while the pumps kept it halfways empty limped it back to the ramp.. all in all not everything was lost and not something that took NASA to do as long as the drive knows what he is doign that deep then it should go well... just helps to have friends with the stuff you need .....
one gas gen
one air comp.
two ac sump pumps to suck the boat out
lots of help form friends
beck boat or poontoon to work off of
and diver that knows his stuff
2 air bags
3 big coolers full of beer and the grill fired up once the boat is in the driveway
thats all you should need i just out a call in to my buddy and "later" drop me a pm with a number to call ya i got both bags less then $225 and might beable to hook you up with the bags to use i gave them to my buddy
if i were close to you i would give all i could because i know how bad it suckz anyhow enuff witht the rant
good luck and any thing i can help with just ask

[RitcheyRch]

Would be awesome if ***boat helped with this.

[angry dad]

Great idea!! Step up ***boat!!

[GHT]

dude....how many times have you sunk you boat?????? i saw this post a month ago..wtf????? did you never get it the last time
I'm with you... This is the same stupid story. Guess this is the only way for him to get his post count up... :rolleyes:

[angry dad]

I'm with you... This is the same stupid story. Guess this is the only way for him to get his post count up... :rolleyes:
Did you read the whole thread???
I guess we're all stupid......... :mad:

[Her454]

I'm with you... This is the same stupid story. Guess this is the only way for him to get his post count up... :rolleyes:
WOW GHT, I hope your boat never sinks and you are in need of help because all you'll probably get is a post count. :yuk:
If you read the whole thread, RD suggested he bring it over here because there is more visibility..................

[GHT]

WOW GHT, I hope your boat never sinks and you are in need of help because all you'll probably get is a post count. :yuk:
If you read the whole thread, RD suggested he bring it over here because there is more visibility..................
I wasn't making light of the boat sinking AT ALL. I was refering to the ORIGINAL POST. I was mearly saying that someone posted the EXACT same post a month ago (actually I didn't say it I Quoted what someone else said). I believe it was the same person because I find it hard to believe the WHOLE story matches what someone posted about a month ago.... My point is... Why would someone post the SAME story two (2) times? My explaination is... Because they wanted to get their post count up.
It this thread had started out, I sunk my boat about a month ago (go to this link) now I'm thinking about raising it can someone help??? THAT would be a whole different thread.. And I wouldn't make my signature smart ass comments.... Comprendaaaa? :) :)
Besides that if anyone would help a broken down boater it would be me. Because MANY here have helped me.
Thank you, I'll step down from my soap box now..
:)

[BadKachina]

Froggy you are man, I like the pay it foward post. :cool:

[GHT]

Did you read the whole thread???
I guess we're all stupid......... :mad:
Obviously NOT.... Damn, I stopped after the first four (4) post thinking it was a repeat of another thread. I know that doesn't ever happen around here....
And No ya'll aren't stupid, I never said that. I DIDN'T read ALL the post. Sorry.... :cry: :cry:

[later]

I really don't understand that comment sir.That's not really nice to say and what about a count,I can care less about a count but what really is neat that there are people out there that care enough to go out of there way to help.If at any time there was a boater stranded I made sure I was there to pull them to the shore because I knew how it felt.This my friend tells alot about somebody and I do thank everybody envolved dispite if it may be a story you herd somewhere else.Don't mean to come off rude but the last comment was'nt right at all.I am simply asking for help and when it's my turn to help I will be there when someone needs me and that my friend should be what Hotbot stands for here in america,it's family and friends sir and thats why ***boat Rocks!!!!!!

[Her454]

Obviously NOT.... Damn, I stopped after the first four (4) post thinking it was a repeat of another thread. I know that doesn't ever happen around here....
And No ya'll aren't stupid, I never said that. I DIDN'T read ALL the post. Sorry.... :cry: :cry:
Then you should be tarred and feathered for not paying attention JEEEEEEEEEZ, don't you know thats dangerous around here? :rollside:

[BadKachina]

Then you should be tarred and feathered for not paying attention JEEEEEEEEEZ, don't you know thats dangerous around here? :rollside:
Or forced to ride in a Kachina....... :rolleyes:

[brianthomas]

Oh come on! If this were to really happen with all the gasoline and oil in the boat and the fact this river supplies drinking water to millions of people you would mortgage your soul or at least your house to get it out the next day! The prison term would likely be huge!

[Her454]

Or forced to ride in a Kachina....... :rolleyes:
YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU said it, I didn't LOL.
Really Deb, wasn't me. :rollside:

[GHT]

Then you should be tarred and feathered for not paying attention JEEEEEEEEEZ, don't you know thats dangerous around here? :rollside:
Or forced to ride in a Kachina.......
H454 First things first....I do know what it's like. :argue: :argue:
BadKachina... That's just not right..

[later]

The water is for irregation and it's not a river.The rangers have been really nice up there.If it was causing any problems they told me they would contact blackledge diving at $4000 a day.So far it's been ok.FYI there was hardly any gas in the boat.There's always negetive where there is positive I guess.Thanks

[BadKachina]

Or forced to ride in a Kachina.......
H454 First things first....I do know what it's like. :argue: :argue:
BadKachina... That's just not right..
You should know better, I love my yellow boat, it's brought me plenty of happy days...
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/520/3078P1010041.JPG

[H20 Toie]

Let me know what day you are going, if we aren't to busy a couple of my are divers also and this would be something different to do. We all have dove over 100' but that was were you can see and not total darkness like this would be. but i think we could go along to help.
But you need to find the boat first.

[GHT]

I know.... The difference between yours and mine is that yours STILL runs... :cry: :cry:

[Phat Daddy]

Send J540 a pm, this is what he does on the side, under water salvage. I'm sure he could be a big help. Hit me up if you want his phone #.

[later]

Thursday on the 17 of august I will be out there locating the boat and dropping anchor.The 22th looks like froggystyle will be there for the pull up.Between now and then I have time to secure everything for him.I just found this guy to help with locating the boat.It looks like everything is falling into place.Thank God for that.I really do thank everybody who has supported me through this rough time.Like I said in past post,I do not have alot of money and that is why things have not moved as fast as I would have liked them to move.Again Thanks Guys.P.S. For those who have thought this is a joke or what ever they thought.It is not and if you ever find yourself in this place I will still be there to help and thats what I am all about my friends.

[RitcheyRch]

Good luck with the recovery. Wish was some way for me to help.
Thursday on the 17 of august I will be out there locating the boat and dropping anchor.The 22th looks like froggystyle will be there for the pull up.Between now and then I have time to secure everything for him.I just found this guy to help with locating the boat.It looks like everything is falling into place.Thank God for that.I really do thank everybody who has supported me through this rough time.Like I said in past post,I do not have alot of money and that is why things have not moved as fast as I would have liked them to move.Again Thanks Guys.P.S. For those who have thought this is a joke or what ever they thought.It is not and if you ever find yourself in this place I will still be there to help and thats what I am all about my friends.

[rrrr]

Be careful, guys.

[SoCal_fun]

Good luck John. We are all rooting for you! I'm off on the 22nd, if this is still on then, I'll hook up my boat and check this out.
Good luck!

[GottaJet]

Good Luck....BE CAREFUL

[JetBoatRich]

Good luck next Thursday on locating the boat :cool: hope it all works out for you.

[Searcher]

Having gone out to Piru lake fishing on Aug. 3rd and sounding the depth in the area that John described to me as where the boat should be my sonar read 127' deep with a flat bottom. The area is probably at least 1/4 mile square that will need to be graphed. The wind came up at around 10:30 and by noon there were whitecaps everywhere and I left. A friend of mine was boating out there yesterday and said the wind came up early and pretty much blew them off of the lake by 1pm. The other post was viewed over 500 times yesterday alone with total views well over the 12,000 mark so there was much interest in the story over there as well. I am still ready to look for this thing and hope that it's not postponed again.
Gene Carlson

[later]

Gene.I have that day off for this reason.I will be there as planned.I will call you today or tomorrow depending if you are home.I will bring ya cash and MGB,Thanks again Gene,it's on.John Case

[RiverDave]

Having gone out to Piru lake fishing on Aug. 3rd and sounding the depth in the area that John described to me as where the boat should be my sonar read 127' deep with a flat bottom. The area is probably at least 1/4 mile square that will need to be graphed. The wind came up at around 10:30 and by noon there were whitecaps everywhere and I left. A friend of mine was boating out there yesterday and said the wind came up early and pretty much blew them off of the lake by 1pm. The other post was viewed over 500 times yesterday alone with total views well over the 12,000 mark so there was much interest in the story over there as well. I am still ready to look for this thing and hope that it's not postponed again.
Gene Carlson
The whole area is 127' deep?
RD

[Froggystyle]

127' is closely approaching the very max I can dive on air, even for only a minute. I would have to know pretty much exactly where the boat is, or I have to go get re-qualed on HeO2. Either way, we need to know the depth to within a couple of feet because of how tight 127' is to my max on air.
For the record, from a dive-physiology perspective, 115' and 127' is night and day. One is only 80% of the limit, the other is 98% of the limit, and it is pretty much an exponential curve with danger.
I am up for it, but it has to be 100% certainly under 130 or I need more gear and re-qual training.

[dimarcobros]

The whole area is 127' deep?
RD
RD, did you get that campbell on your signature?
I think this is really cool (which doesn't even come close to describing it) of you froggystyle.
DMB

[RiverDave]

RD, did you get that campbell on your signature?
I think this is really cool (which doesn't even come close to describing it) of you froggystyle.
DMB
No, just messing with Holy Moly.
RD

[Froggystyle]

Having gone out to Piru lake fishing on Aug. 3rd and sounding the depth in the area that John described to me as where the boat should be my sonar read 127' deep with a flat bottom. The area is probably at least 1/4 mile square that will need to be graphed. The wind came up at around 10:30 and by noon there were whitecaps everywhere and I left. A friend of mine was boating out there yesterday and said the wind came up early and pretty much blew them off of the lake by 1pm. The other post was viewed over 500 times yesterday alone with total views well over the 12,000 mark so there was much interest in the story over there as well. I am still ready to look for this thing and hope that it's not postponed again.
Gene Carlson
Good intel right there. We won't have a problem being blown off the lake, as the Trident won't have a problem holding station, and once under I have no clue what is happenning on the surface.
I just need that descending line damn near on top of the hull, or a hell of a bearing from the anchor to the boat. Hauling that line down there is going to be tricky.
The likely search I will do is called a "jackstay" search where you bring down a rope that is about 40 feet long. You attach it to the anchor or descending line and pay it out 15 feet or so and swim a circle. If you don't find it, you open the line up to 30 feet and try again. Then 45 etc... That will almost certainly cork off my bottom time.
Additionally, the "repet" interval for this dive is pretty long. I can't go back down for a little while if I max out the bottom time. If we can't guarantee a drop and hook, I will almost certainly have to plan a decompression dive into the equation. Which means more tanks stationed at 20' or so.
I am just really curious how cold it actually is down there. It could be worse than I am planning on, and be really bitter under there.
Who knows. It is considered an Alpine lake I think. It is fed by snow runoff, right?

[RiverDave]

Good intel right there. We won't have a problem being blown off the lake, as the Trident won't have a problem holding station, and once under I have no clue what is happenning on the surface.
I just need that descending line damn near on top of the hull, or a hell of a bearing from the anchor to the boat. Hauling that line down there is going to be tricky.
The likely search I will do is called a "jackstay" search where you bring down a rope that is about 40 feet long. You attach it to the anchor or descending line and pay it out 15 feet or so and swim a circle. If you don't find it, you open the line up to 30 feet and try again. Then 45 etc... That will almost certainly cork off my bottom time.
Additionally, the "repet" interval for this dive is pretty long. I can't go back down for a little while if I max out the bottom time. If we can't guarantee a drop and hook, I will almost certainly have to plan a decompression dive into the equation. Which means more tanks stationed at 20' or so.
I am just really curious how cold it actually is down there. It could be worse than I am planning on, and be really bitter under there.
Who knows. It is considered an Alpine lake I think. It is fed by snow runoff, right?
The water yield from Lake Piru comes from rainfall runoff within a 432 square mile watershed in the Los Padres and Angeles National Forests.
Found it on the lake piru website..
RD

[later]

Good day all.I will get you as close to that boat as I can.I believe the lake depth is below 130.I will be going out on the 17th of aug to pin point this boat.I will provide depth info as well as temp before you come down.Again thanks and if you need to call me.Hm#.818-368-1960 Wk#818-842-8346 ext 120.

[f_inscreenname]

I feel for you bud. About a month ago I broke a steering cable and did the dreaded 180* turn doing about 50mph. It leaned over hard but did not flip. It was just me and I got a couple bruised ribs for it but the trip a couple days before was with the family (two kids under 6). I could not even think of it happening with them. I'm glad you all made out OK.
So I get it fixed and proceed to blow my motor last weekend. So I have no boat also. I guess in some ways I can relate. I have often thought about what I would do if it sank and like you I would have to get it back. In my case you can not buy another one like it but also its mine and has been and will be no matter what. And mine don't get left behind if there is anything I can do about it.
Good luck to you all. The wife is a certified scuba diver and I know its a little dangerous that deep. Please be careful and save the beers for when the bow breaks the surface.
You guys are top notch for doing this for "later" and I cant wait to see the pictures. I would love to see it in person but if I left now I may get there in time for the after party (if it lasts a couple days). Good luck.

[Froggystyle]

I just spoke to the Ranger from Piru and while he was a very, very cool dude and helpful to the max, he did drop a bomb on me...
You are not allowed to dive on Piru without permission from the Lake Manager. His is not in right now, but will be tomorrow and I will get a hold of him. The hangup is, he mandates that we have insurance coverage to go get it. They need an insurance binder holding them harmless in the event of an accident and workmans comp insurance from me for the job.
The good news is, the water temp is only 50 degrees, so that is a piece of cake. I can damn near do that bareback.
So, you are going to need to sort out the insurance before we can do anything....

[Cole Trickle]

How much will the boat be worth once recovered?
Sounds like it is turning into alot of troule/risk......127' is a long way down and even if you pinpoint it one would think an anchor line could be quite a ways off if it got caught in any kind of current.
How far will you be able to see with lights at that depth?

[Froggystyle]

How much will the boat be worth once recovered?
Sounds like it is turning into alot of troule/risk......127' is a long way down and even if you pinpoint it one would think an anchor line could be quite a ways off if it got caught in any kind of current.
How far will you be able to see with lights at that depth?
You can get it really close with an anchor if you put a sonar reflective disk on the anchor line. Once you plant the anchor, you drive around the boat until you are sure you are close enough, and more importantly, make sure you know what the heading and distance is from the anchor to the boat. I can swim out 50 yards no problem, But I have to know what direction to swim 50 yards in.
You can't see shit with lights in any case. Silt, dirt, ambient lighting etc... makes it pretty murky under there. I will bring some down anyway, but I am not counting on much.
Fact is, probably 90% of my diving experience has been under boats, in harbors at night with no lights. I am way past "boogyman" stage, and go mostly by feel, bearing, distance and time. It is important to plan your dive accordingly as a result.
I think the Jackstay search is going to be what finds the boat. I might even start it at 60 feet and wait until it hangs up on something and then go back and find it.
Who knows.... now that insurance is involved this may suck.

[Searcher]

The whole area is 127' deep?
RD
Due to the urge to fish I didn't stay in that area long or graph much and I don't have a topo map of the lake but it seemed to be a large flat area about 1/4 mile square in the middle of a much larger area that extends to the shore on two sides, towards the marina on another or towards the no wake bouy line near the dam the other way. See attachment

[later]

Froggystyle.Any ideas how to approach the insurence bit?.

[Froggystyle]

Froggystyle.Any ideas how to approach the insurence bit?.
None. Since I am not charging you or doing it for profit, I can't see how I can expect to be insured for the job. I will sign a waiver if need be that takes my liability into my own hands, but I am not going to go set up insurance to do it.
The Lake Manager's name is Doug West, and his number is (805) 521-1645. If you want to sort it out with him, I will go with the flow for sure.
Wes

[later]

I'm on it.I will call tomorrow and find out the info.I can't beleive how much help your giving me.Let me know what I can do in return.Thanks.John Case

[coolchange]

Just a thought. I'm a Divemaster but I'm not current. If yuo had a current Divemaster rating and insurance thru say PADI. Might this be considered a wreck dive for recreation? Might be enough to get by the red tape if they do'nt have long to figure it out.

[BajaMike]

You can get it really close with an anchor if you put a sonar reflective disk on the anchor line. Once you plant the anchor, you drive around the boat until you are sure you are close enough, and more importantly, make sure you know what the heading and distance is from the anchor to the boat. I can swim out 50 yards no problem, But I have to know what direction to swim 50 yards in.
You can't see shit with lights in any case. Silt, dirt, ambient lighting etc... makes it pretty murky under there. I will bring some down anyway, but I am not counting on much.
Fact is, probably 90% of my diving experience has been under boats, in harbors at night with no lights. I am way past "boogyman" stage, and go mostly by feel, bearing, distance and time. It is important to plan your dive accordingly as a result.
I think the Jackstay search is going to be what finds the boat. I might even start it at 60 feet and wait until it hangs up on something and then go back and find it.
Who knows.... now that insurance is involved this may suck.
These Navy Seal guys blow my mind. In these times of terrorist threats, they pop out of a submarine in an enemy harbor at night with zero visibility and go after a target or swim up some snake invested river and survey an enemy for a while until they decide to take them out.
Froggy says “, probably 90% of my diving experience has been under boats, in harbors at night with no lights. I am way past "boogyman" stage”…..damn….Image that....I get the “boogyman stage” just thinking about the situations he’s been in.
Shit, I’m freaking out snorkeling in the British Virgin Islands in the bright daylight at 15 feet when a few rays or a couple little sharks show up…..
These Navy Seal's gotta have some of the biggest brass balls in the military and I’m glad they’re on our side!!!
If anyone can get that boat, Froggy probably can, but it's not worth risking his life for....it's just a boat.
:idea: :idea: :idea:

[boxscore]

If anyone can get that boat, Froggy probably can, but it's not worth risking his life for....it's just a boat.
:idea: :idea: :idea:
Wes has not publicly mentioned that as soon as this boat is hauled up, he's dragging Later down to the showroom for the next purchase.

[Howie Feltersnatch]

Homeowner's policy MIGHT offer some insurance coverage.

[Froggystyle]

These Navy Seal guys blow my mind. In these times of terrorist threats, they pop out of a submarine in an enemy harbor at night with zero visibility and go after a target or swim up some snake invested river and survey an enemy for a while until they decide to take them out.
Froggy says “, probably 90% of my diving experience has been under boats, in harbors at night with no lights. I am way past "boogyman" stage”…..damn….Image that....I get the “boogyman stage” just thinking about the situations he’s been in.
Shit, I’m freaking out snorkeling in the British Virgin Islands in the bright daylight at 15 feet when a few rays or a couple little sharks show up…..
These Navy Seal's gotta have some of the biggest brass balls in the military and I’m glad they’re on our side!!!
If anyone can get that boat, Froggy probably can, but it's not worth risking his life for....it's just a boat.
:idea: :idea: :idea:
Your sentiment is appreciated, but it really isn't that big a deal. I was involved in some seriously deep dives at the SIMA dive locker in Norfolk, VA. Where I was stationed before going into the teams. The underwater shit the Deep Sea guys do is really cool, and I have been around actual deep dives long enough to know the limits. There was a time when I had the whole Navy Dive manual memorized front to rear.
Narcosis is the only real danger for me, and I will have another SEAL, Craig stationed at 90 feet (above Narc depth) incase I am not back up in minutes. In the words of Ace Ventura... "If I'm not back in five minutes... keep waiting." :D
If you are a professional diver, this isn't that big of a deal. But thanks for thinking of me.
The ONLY thing worth it BTW would be a boat. I wouldn't do this for a Ferrari... ;)

[purrfecttremor]

Was there not insurance on this boat? Sorry on you if not! This sounds a little risky at best.Dont mean to sound negative but it doesnt sound worth it to me and would hate to see anyone get hurt!

[hoolign]

Chuck Norris could raise that boat by merely putting his toe in the water..thus leting the boat know he is "on his way" and scaring it out!

[Froggystyle]

Chuck Norris could raise that boat by merely putting his toe in the water..thus leting the boat know he is "on his way" and scaring it out!
We will just consider that "Plan A" and see how it works before getting into rubber... ;)

[hoolign]

We will just consider that "Plan A" and see how it works before getting into rubber... ;)
I would add an oi zuki for added effect!
:rollside:

[RitcheyRch]

Hopefully the retrieval will still happen.

[Froggystyle]

Hopefully the retrieval will still happen.
I just arranged for one of my close friends, former teammate and another member of the Trident team, Tom Giummarra to act as topside dive supervisor for us in case shit hits the fan for some reason. This addition inspires a lot of confidence in me as Tom is not only qualified as a DiveSup in the Navy but has a lot of experience as well.
I ain't afeard...

[RitcheyRch]

Sounds good.
I just arranged for one of my close friends, former teammate and another member of the Trident team, Tom Giummarra to act as topside dive supervisor for us in case shit hits the fan for some reason. This addition inspires a lot of confidence in me as Tom is not only qualified as a DiveSup in the Navy but has a lot of experience as well.
I ain't afeard...

[stompnstang]

i have tried to call afew times never seem to catch ya at home ill try tomorrow at work and you have a pm. its sunday 9:30 est ill try again one more before i call it for the night..
good luck
stomp

[later]

Froggystyle.How's it looking for the 22nd.What do you need me to do before hand?.Thanks.John Case

[RiverDave]

Froggystyle.How's it looking for the 22nd.What do you need me to do before hand?.Thanks.John Case
Did you locate the boat and get the permission of the lake manager? What was the end deal on the insurance.. Will a waiver work?
RD

[Froggystyle]

Froggystyle.How's it looking for the 22nd.What do you need me to do before hand?.Thanks.John Case
Just get a hold of that guy and deal with the insurance end of it. That way we aren't all getting dressed up for nothing here...

[later]

Call'ed lake piru on saturday and Doug wes was not in.I call'ed and spoke to kurt today and Doug is at meetings today.Tomorrow he will be back in the office.Kurt seem'ed to think a waiver would be ok,but Doug makes the final call.Locating the boat on thursday as planned.Kurt had let me know if the boat is not pulled up soon then the lake will pull it up and at that point I guess the boat goes into impound.At that being said I might as well call it a day because there's no way I can afford that And I will screwwed due to impound rates etc.What ever becomes of this,I do thank you all for the help.We will find out tomorrow about the waiver bit.I will keep you all posted.Thank you.John Case

[later]

Hey Froggystyle.Got ahold of a company that is in my area that sails rope.He said that 150ft of 3/4 that can hold more than 3500lbs and it poly pro is about $99.00 plus for me to have an eyeloop attached would be additional $50.00.Is this good enough for the job?.

[later]

Froggy style.I was able to talk with Jake who had the air bags and he said he would ship them down to me.Great guy.He is letting me borrow them I just pay shipping from ohio.They should be here,I am hoping by friday.The bags can lift a 1000pounds each.He is going to get the couplers for the air tanks.He said that they have barb fittings on them now.He used these bags to pull his boat up,he used an air compressor.Will this work for you?.I also tried to get ahold of doug wes over at the lake.He's not due untill tomorrow morning.I will try again first thing in the morn.Thanks again.John Case

[RiverDave]

Froggy style.I was able to talk with Jake who had the air bags and he said he would ship them down to me.Great guy.He is letting me borrow them I just pay shipping from ohio.They should be here,I am hoping by friday.The bags can lift a 1000pounds each.He is going to get the couplers for the air tanks.He said that they have barb fittings on them now.He used these bags to pull his boat up,he used an air compressor.Will this work for you?.I also tried to get ahold of doug wes over at the lake.He's not due untill tomorrow morning.I will try again first thing in the morn.Thanks again.John Case
It might be easier to give Wes a call down at Trident just to make sure he's seeing all this.
Although I think this is great that we are all able to see it come together here on the forums! Definatley keep us up to date!
RD

[Froggystyle]

Hey Froggystyle.Got ahold of a company that is in my area that sails rope.He said that 150ft of 3/4 that can hold more than 3500lbs and it poly pro is about $99.00 plus for me to have an eyeloop attached would be additional $50.00.Is this good enough for the job?.
Yeah, that will do it. Hell, if it breaks, it goes to the bottom, right? ;)
Don't worry about the eyeloop for $50. We can tie a figure-eight follow through...

[rerfert]

Hey Froggystyle.Got ahold of a company that is in my area that sails rope.He said that 150ft of 3/4 that can hold more than 3500lbs and it poly pro is about $99.00 plus for me to have an eyeloop attached would be additional $50.00.Is this good enough for the job?.
In the interest of saving money wouldn't a few good ol boy scout knots do the same job as a $50 eyeloop?
You wouldn't be tying them to the boat or the air bag? You would use a climbers quick connect right?
Just a question.

[Froggystyle]

In the interest of saving money wouldn't a few good ol boy scout knots do the same job as a $50 eyeloop?
You wouldn't be tying them to the boat or the air bag? You would use a climbers quick connect right?
Just a question.
Climbers quick connects (AKA Carabiners) aren't rated for loads like this. You could use a cargo biner, but those are way, way spendy.
This will be done using lifting straps and shackles. The golden rule is over rate everything by double.
I anticipate this being easy day. I am hoping that it will all go smoothly, I will find the boat, clip in the shackle, tug on the rope, have Craig fill the bag while I make sure it starts on the way up, then follow my bubbles on up. Stop for a minute or two at 20' for good measure and then come up. Hang out during the surface interval, then go down, hook a bag to the boweye and pull the drain plugs. Head on up with the boat, and once it is near breaching the surface, just start slowly pulling it forward. Hydrodynamics being what they are, there is a really good chance it will just pop right on up as soon as we start moving. If not, we will need to get the boat on the surface before starting the tow, which will require more work with the bags. Once it is up and planing a little, we will drive it around until the water drains out a bit, preferably towards shallower water then throw the plugs back in. Head for the ramp, put it on a trailer and get the hell out of dodge. Drink beer.
See... it is nearly done already! ;)

[Jrocket]

Maybe I missed the date but when is this going to happen? Good quality photos of this would be nice.

[Havasu1986]

I think there shooting for the 22nd

[VanDeano]

Climbers quick connects (AKA Carabiners) aren't rated for loads like this. You could use a cargo biner, but those are way, way spendy.
This will be done using lifting straps and shackles. The golden rule is over rate everything by double.
I anticipate this being easy day. I am hoping that it will all go smoothly, I will find the boat, clip in the shackle, tug on the rope, have Craig fill the bag while I make sure it starts on the way up, then follow my bubbles on up. Stop for a minute or two at 20' for good measure and then come up. Hang out during the surface interval, then go down, hook a bag to the boweye and pull the drain plugs. Head on up with the boat, and once it is near breaching the surface, just start slowly pulling it forward. Hydrodynamics being what they are, there is a really good chance it will just pop right on up as soon as we start moving. If not, we will need to get the boat on the surface before starting the tow, which will require more work with the bags. Once it is up and planing a little, we will drive it around until the water drains out a bit, preferably towards shallower water then throw the plugs back in. Head for the ramp, put it on a trailer and get the hell out of dodge. Drink beer.
See... it is nearly done already! ;)
That is what I call positive thinking! :) :)

[later]

Thats the way ah ha. :)

[RitcheyRch]

We all looking forward to this happening.

[XTRM22]

[QUOTE=Froggystyle]
Fact is, probably 90% of my diving experience has been under boats, in harbors at night with no lights. I am way past "boogyman" stage, and go mostly by feel, bearing, distance and time. QUOTE]
Damn, I just had to come in out of the swimming pool cause my wife turned off the pool light, apparently I'm not quite passed the boogeymen stage :rollside:
Good luck with this recovery, I wish it wasn't so far, I'd love to show up to watch or be a deck hand.
Chuck

[later]

Hello Froggy style.Just got off the phone with Doug Wes over at Lake Piru.The answer is no.He requires insurence and workmans comp for anybody who dives on the Lake.So in that being said I am at a loss on what to do next.Can you give me any idea's to approach this one?.John Case

[RitcheyRch]

Definitely not good news.
Hello Froggy style.Just got off the phone with Doug Wes over at Lake Piru.The answer is no.He requires insurence and workmans comp for anybody who dives on the Lake.So in that being said I am at a loss on what to do next.Can you give me any idea's to approach this one?.John Case

[Donttreadonme]

Yes, goto wells fargo or any accountant that does payroll services and put him on minium wage. The payroll service will take of the insurance. Any payroll service should be able to take care of it for you.

[seanv]

this is a damn greek tradgedy! guys start helping this boater out and then some bone head throws a wrench in the works. later, i hope there's some loophole that allows the recovery to happen!!! great job to all those that are helping!
we have to have insurance peeps on here that can write up something dont we??

[BajaMike]

Yes, goto wells fargo or any accountant that does payroll services and put him on minium wage. The payroll service will take of the insurance. Any payroll service should be able to take care of it for you.
Workmans Comp rates are based on the job description....I would guess salvage divers are rated fairly high..... :idea:
This doesn't sound good.....Was there insurance on the boat??
Also, the lake may consider the boat to be hazardous waste, and may remove it and charge the owner for the costs involved.
I would talk to the salvage company the lake would use. Just an idea....I sounds like the lake isn't going to allow a non-commercial salvage operation.
:cry:

[Her454]

I just sent this to my sister, she is a workers comp specialist and maybe can offer some suggestions.

[RitcheyRch]

Sure hope this gets resolved and they can get the boat.

[RiverDave]

this is a damn greek tradgedy! guys start helping this boater out and then some bone head throws a wrench in the works. later, i hope there's some loophole that allows the recovery to happen!!! great job to all those that are helping!
we have to have insurance peeps on here that can write up something dont we??
I don't know if he's a bonehead.. He's just watching out for his own hide. I'm sure with all the sunk boats over the years he's probably seen some pretty rickety recovery attempts.
On a side note though, that certainly does put a pretty big wrench in the plan. :( I am very sad to hear that some red tape might put this thing off even longer, or potentially cancel the whole thing.
RD

[HALLETT240]

You Know, With All The Readership This Post Is Getting, How About We Start A Donation Box To Help With The Costs. If Everyone Put In A Dollar Or More It Might Help This Poor Hot Boater Out With The Insurance Costs? Just A Thought, I Sure Would Contribute To Help This Poor Guy.

[Her454]

Here is her response..................
First of all, are they being paid to dive? If not, the entire w/c subject does not apply. You cannot have W/C coverage for someone unless they are your "employee".
If they are being paid, the law would define them as "INDEPENDENT CONTRACTORS".
I can't even think of what type of Insurance coverage would be necessary for diving. If they require Liability, that would cover the lake if they caused damage to it??? Doesn't make sense, I'd fax them a letter with a bogus Law Firm on the letterhead and get my boat, screw them!!

[seanv]

I don't know if he's a bonehead.. He's just watching out for his own hide. I'm sure with all the sunk boats over the years he's probably seen some pretty rickety recovery attempts.
On a side note though, that certainly does put a pretty big wrench in the plan. :( I am very sad to hear that some red tape might put this thing off even longer, or potentially cancel the whole thing.
RD
rd, im sure back in the day it would be no biggie, but with everyone looking to sue anyone for anything he's driven to these measures to protect himself. it just sux for later who's been trying within his means to get his boat back. now that peeps are helping this guy "the man" try's to knock him down. just sux.

[Tremor Therapy]

I will say it again.......hey ***boat are you listening? This would be a great read in the mag! I know that I have often wondered about how much damage happens to a boat that is sunk, and what the entire process entails to retrieve one!
You are ***boat for god sakes, use some corporate muscle, pull some strings, and document the hell out of the process. It would make for a great read in the mag, which could be done in sections, and it would make for some great pub too! Hell you already got half the volunteers needed for the process.....take a little initiative and jump at the opportunity to get something fresh for the mag!
Stage 1: Gear and effort required to locate a boat
Stage 2: Gear and effort required to pull the boat off the bottom and get it back on the trailer
Stage 3: The damage that is done, and the efforts required to bring a salvaged boat back to working condition!
Come on, kick down and make this happen!

[RitcheyRch]

Agree. Might be a good idea. Look how much money was generated by the Jeep Death Pool.
You Know, With All The Readership This Post Is Getting, How About We Start A Donation Box To Help With The Costs. If Everyone Put In A Dollar Or More It Might Help This Poor Hot Boater Out With The Insurance Costs? Just A Thought, I Sure Would Contribute To Help This Poor Guy.

[RiverDave]

I will say it again.......hey ***boat are you listening? This would be a great read in the mag! I know that I have often wondered about how much damage happens to a boat that is sunk, and what the entire process entails to retrieve one!
You are ***boat for god sakes, use some corporate muscle, pull some strings, and document the hell out of the process. It would make for a great read in the mag, which could be done in sections, and it would make for some great pub too! Hell you already got half the volunteers needed for the process.....take a little initiative and jump at the opportunity to get something fresh for the mag!
Stage 1: Gear and effort required to locate a boat
Stage 2: Gear and effort required to pull the boat off the bottom and get it back on the trailer
Stage 3: The damage that is done, and the efforts required to bring a salvaged boat back to working condition!
Come on, kick down and make this happen!
Even if they were going to write an article, I don't believe they would show corporate muscle to try and leverage lake piru..
RD

[whoya]

[QUOTE=Her454]Here is her response..................
First of all, are they being paid to dive? If not, the entire w/c subject does not apply. You cannot have W/C coverage for someone unless they are your "employee".
If they are being paid, the law would define them as "INDEPENDENT CONTRACTORS".
I can't even think of what type of Insurance coverage would be necessary for diving. If they require Liability, that would cover the lake if they caused damage to it??? Doesn't make sense, I'd fax them a letter with a bogus Law Firm on the letterhead and get my boat, screw them!![/ I'd fax them a letter with a bogus Law Firm on the letterhead and get my boat, screw them!![/ QUOTE]
I like your style :rollside:
All John would have to do is pay him $1.

[later]

Working on plan B.Froggystyle..I spoke to a place called blackledge diving and waiting for a call from Ron over there.I know this is going to be a fortune but on the other hand if Lake Piru gets who ever out there to do this it's most likely that it will be more than a fortune to recover this boat.Never the less the boat has to come out soon as I was told by kurt,the other Ranger.So now it's to a head.Just giving you heads up about this.Looks like eather way I am screwed.I between a hard rock and a stone.Any other idea's would be great don't know what I should do.

[RitcheyRch]

The lake might not want him to get it. They might be thinking they will be better off retrieving the boat themselves and auctioning it off. Maybe the lake manager is in cahoots with the recovery business.
Hopefully I am way off base with this but is just a thought.
Im still up for helping John out and willing to donate some cash to make this happen.

[Her454]

Working on plan B.Froggystyle..I spoke to a place called blackledge diving and waiting for a call from Ron over there.I know this is going to be a fortune but on the other hand if Lake Piru gets who ever out there to do this it's most likely that it will be more than a fortune to recover this boat.Never the less the boat has to come out soon as I was told by kurt,the other Ranger.So now it's to a head.Just giving you heads up about this.Looks like eather way I am screwed.I between a hard rock and a stone.Any other idea's would be great don't know what I should do.
I am confused? Is the issue the Workers comp/Insurance liability now, or is it that Piru bumped the time limit as to when it needs to be recovered?
If Froggy and crew are willing to try this in the agreed upon time span with Piru, what is the problem now?
Maybe I am just having a blonde moment and missed something, if I did then sorry for the recap.
And BTW, maybe Im way too trusting but the thought that Piru is stalling for the chance to recover it themselves seems a bit much. But maybe. :yuk:

[KACHINA KEN]

Just a thought. I'm a Divemaster but I'm not current. If yuo had a current Divemaster rating and insurance thru say PADI. Might this be considered a wreck dive for recreation? Might be enough to get by the red tape if they do'nt have long to figure it out.
D.A.N. May be of some assistance here.
http://www.diversalertnetwork.org/insurance/

[HALLETT240]

Hey, "later" Give Me An Address And I Will Begin The Donation Process, If We Start Early You Will Have Some Money By The Weekend.

[KACHINA KEN]

Well it may help some but hurt others, they are apparantly moving the party to the 29th (the Tuesday following) at Wave House, she didn't say why but thats whats happening. I will keep my party peeps posted in this thread.
Ken

[KACHINA KEN]

Well it may help some but hurt others, they are apparantly moving the party to the 29th (the Tuesday following) at Wave House, she didn't say why but thats whats happening. I will keep my party peeps posted in this thread.
Ken
Sorry i was trying to start a new thread, ain't that a bitch?

[later]

Lake Piru requires that any diver must have insurence to dive in the lake.Why doug wes is saying he needs workers comp too,I don't understand that and why.This is what we have been waiting for to complete this mission.Now the problem of course is insurence.Seem's like a friggin wall at every corner.

[later]

Hey, "later" Give Me An Address And I Will Begin The Donation Process, If We Start Early You Will Have Some Money By The Weekend.The address is 17727 Tribune st.Granada hills,Ca 91344.John Case

[Her454]

Lake Piru requires that any diver must have insurence to dive in the lake.Why doug wes is saying he needs workers comp too,I don't understand that and why.This is what we have been waiting for to complete this mission.Now the problem of course is insurence.Seem's like a friggin wall at every corner.
I would have him fax you a letter stating EXACTLY what you need, WHY they require it, and by what date, as far as insurance/liability etc so there is no mistake. I don't understand the workers comp issue since they are not diving for/or employed by Lake Piru. They would be considered Independent Contractors in the eyes of the law and I would fight that aspect if they pushed. But first I would ask for everything in black and white and go from there as it seems you are spinning your wheels. There are alot of good, qualified people on here offering their assistance and the more organized and clear things are from the beginning, the faster you will get that boat up.
Just my .02

[RitcheyRch]

Dont you just love the political red tape crap. Am sure the lake only trying to protect themselves but would think they would be happy with the release of liability from the diver.
Lake Piru requires that any diver must have insurence to dive in the lake.Why doug wes is saying he needs workers comp too,I don't understand that and why.This is what we have been waiting for to complete this mission.Now the problem of course is insurence.Seem's like a friggin wall at every corner.

[later]

I will call and have them fax me the info.Thanks for that thought.John Case

[HALLETT240]

John Case, Its In The Mail As We Speak

[KACHINA KEN]

Lake Piru requires that any diver must have insurence to dive in the lake.Why doug wes is saying he needs workers comp too,I don't understand that and why.This is what we have been waiting for to complete this mission.Now the problem of course is insurence.Seem's like a friggin wall at every corner.
If they are reasonable they will accept DAN insurance. Wes I'm not good to 130' yet or I would be in and I dont think there is a NITROX class for anther 3 weeks, you aren't thinking of going it alone are you or do you have a team already together?

[RitcheyRch]

My donation will be in the mail tonight.
John Case, Its In The Mail As We Speak

[KACHINA KEN]

The lake might not want him to get it. They might be thinking they will be better off retrieving the boat themselves and auctioning it off. Maybe the lake manager is in cahoots with the recovery business.
Hopefully I am way off base with this but is just a thought.
Im still up for helping John out and willing to donate some cash to make this happen.
Doubt it, I could go get it now if I had the ability and I would have salvor rights to it. It's the law of salvage, I just read a story in Power and yachting where a 60' sport fish went tits up on super bowl weekend in the Bahamas and the boat was taken by salvors.

[later]

By Law they can't take my boat with out notifying me or without my permission.That's theft is'nt it.There's no friggin way!

[HALLETT240]

Hell, John If You Get Enough In Donations You Could Either Pay For The Impound Or Go Get Another Boat, Lets Bring This To A Happy Ending...

[VESSEL ASSIST]

Climbers quick connects (AKA Carabiners) aren't rated for loads like this. You could use a cargo biner, but those are way, way spendy.
This will be done using lifting straps and shackles. The golden rule is over rate everything by double.
I anticipate this being easy day. I am hoping that it will all go smoothly, I will find the boat, clip in the shackle, tug on the rope, have Craig fill the bag while I make sure it starts on the way up, then follow my bubbles on up. Stop for a minute or two at 20' for good measure and then come up. Hang out during the surface interval, then go down, hook a bag to the boweye and pull the drain plugs. Head on up with the boat, and once it is near breaching the surface, just start slowly pulling it forward. Hydrodynamics being what they are, there is a really good chance it will just pop right on up as soon as we start moving. If not, we will need to get the boat on the surface before starting the tow, which will require more work with the bags. Once it is up and planing a little, we will drive it around until the water drains out a bit, preferably towards shallower water then throw the plugs back in. Head for the ramp, put it on a trailer and get the hell out of dodge. Drink beer.
See... it is nearly done already! ;)
Froggy,
That's one heck of a dive and your the man for doin it. I've read the entire thread and you have a serious dive job ahead of you.
However, having done these deals in the past and also having made some mistakes and having learned from them I feel obligated to speak up and offer some insight.
Your dive plan is almost fool proof but here is something to consider:
Instead of diving to the vessel with a bag and rigging just take a rope and a shackle to the bow eye. Easier dive and no snags this way you spend less energy namhandeling bags, ropes and rigging. On that lift line rope have pre-tied loops every twenty feet. Dive and shackle the vessel and return to the dive boat. Swim down to the first loop @ twenty feet and place a bag, return to the dive boat. Fill the bag and raise the boat twenty feet up. You may initially need to apply pressure to the sunk vessel with the tow boat and lift line to break it free from bottom silt suction. After the bag surfaces swim down and place the next bag at the next loop down. After the first hook-up dive you will only be diving twenty feet at any time. The vessel will come up twenty feet at a time and you have much less risk involved. If you do try to run a bag on the bow eye initially you may very well have a mess on your hands due to air expansion from 127 foot depth. That vessel will surely be on a rocket mission for the surface and the bag will be banging the safety over-pressure valves, the bag will likely not survive the task. When the bag brakes the surface from the bottom to the surface the pressure and speed will be so great and the thing will come up with such force the bag will clear the waters surface and when it re-enters the water the weight on the down stroke will likely cause bag failure, (straps, clips and or RF welds) on the bag itself. Better to do it slowly and methodically then to involve danger and risk, not to mention having to relocate and redive the vessel due to an oversight. Once the vessel is safely hanging on a 2000#er near the surface slowly tow it to shallow water so you can then begin rigging the rear stern cleats and then raise the gunnels and pump it out.
Other then considering using this process I think you guys have it pretty well covered.
You may want to have at your handy one 2000# bow eye bag.
Two 1000# bags for each stearn cleat.
If no stern cleats? Use the two 1000#er's with a 12" - 16" strap connecting the two bags and cradle the bottom back of the vessel. Don't forget to tie off the tops of each rear bag so they can't spit our either side when filling.
Froggy, I know you are well qualified and more then capable of the task but if you have any questions, would like to brain storm or have any questions, call me. Diver safety is priority!!!
Good luck guys!!! GREG
Vessel Assist Needles
Metropolitan Marine Solutions

[RitcheyRch]

Like said. I dont know. Was just throwing a thought out there.
Doubt it, I could go get it now if I had the ability and I would have salvor rights to it. It's the law of salvage, I just read a story in Power and yachting where a 60' sport fish went tits up on super bowl weekend in the Bahamas and the boat was taken by salvors.

[VESSEL ASSIST]

By Law they can't take my boat with out notifying me or without my permission.That's theft is'nt it.There's no friggin way!
No it's not and Yes they can!!!
If that boat does pose and is an environmental threat or they even perceive it to be they can and will do whatever and whenever they want to do and you are always left holding the bill.
I they have allowed you to make plans to remove it, I would suggest you do it as soon as possible.
When the words "environmental impact" come up you will be treading in dangerous waters. Get it done as soon as you can.

[centerhill condor]

pay the big bucks to the company that does it for a living or just let it go.
These guys are real nice to offer to help...but just let it go. That boat is a gonner and you'll never see it again and she ain't comin' back to you. Seems like you've come full circle on the insurance bit here...I've updated my policy to cover boat recovery/towing. That's the other lesson in this story...the first is always wear your lifejacket when under way!
I hope that everybody else has learned from you so we don't have to follow. Sorry about your loss... you lived and the boat didn't..things could have been much much worse. If you pulled it up this morning pretty good chance you'll never get her under way again without spending much more than she's worth.
This would be a great story for the grandkids...with the SEAL team and the people coming together and all... but just let it go. You'll have other boats and all the memories from this one...Acceptance is the key to all your problems. You've still got the trailer, right?

[Her454]

pay the big bucks to the company that does it for a living or just let it go.
These guys are real nice to offer to help...but just let it go. That boat is a gonner and you'll never see it again and she ain't comin' back to you. Seems like you've come full circle on the insurance bit here...I've updated my policy to cover boat recovery/towing. That's the other lesson in this story...the first is always wear your lifejacket when under way!
I hope that everybody else has learned from you so we don't have to follow. Sorry about your loss... you lived and the boat didn't..things could have been much much worse. If you pulled it up this morning pretty good chance you'll never get her under way again without spending much more than she's worth.
This would be a great story for the grandkids...with the SEAL team and the people coming together and all... but just let it go. You'll have other boats and all the memories from this one...Acceptance is the key to all your problems. You've still got the trailer, right?
Easy for you to be negative and throw in the towel when its not your boat. I understand what you are saying, but if it were my boat I wouldn't give up until the last possible avenue was exhausted and it still looks like there might be a chance.

[Classic Daycruiser]

I will say it again.......hey ***boat are you listening? This would be a great read in the mag! I know that I have often wondered about how much damage happens to a boat that is sunk, and what the entire process entails to retrieve one!
You are ***boat for god sakes, use some corporate muscle, pull some strings, and document the hell out of the process. It would make for a great read in the mag, which could be done in sections, and it would make for some great pub too! Hell you already got half the volunteers needed for the process.....take a little initiative and jump at the opportunity to get something fresh for the mag!
Stage 1: Gear and effort required to locate a boat
Stage 2: Gear and effort required to pull the boat off the bottom and get it back on the trailer
Stage 3: The damage that is done, and the efforts required to bring a salvaged boat back to working condition!
Come on, kick down and make this happen!
The importance of "Boat Insurance" would make a great article. Using this boat as an example, as well as a few other incidents (Eliminator/Advantage collision at Lake Havasu).
Although I have regular insurance on my boat, I don't think I have workmens comp insurance on my boat.

[later]

Hell, John If You Get Enough In Donations You Could Either Pay For The Impound Or Go Get Another Boat, Lets Bring This To A Happy Ending...Well I guess I will hope it will turn for the best.Right now I am in a Big hole.We will see how this turns.

[Tequila-John]

Well I guess I will hope it will turn for the best.Right now I am in a Big hole.We will see how this turns.
Have you started getting any fines yet?

[RiverDave]

pay the big bucks to the company that does it for a living or just let it go.
These guys are real nice to offer to help...but just let it go. That boat is a gonner and you'll never see it again and she ain't comin' back to you. Seems like you've come full circle on the insurance bit here...I've updated my policy to cover boat recovery/towing. That's the other lesson in this story...the first is always wear your lifejacket when under way!
I hope that everybody else has learned from you so we don't have to follow. Sorry about your loss... you lived and the boat didn't..things could have been much much worse. If you pulled it up this morning pretty good chance you'll never get her under way again without spending much more than she's worth.
This would be a great story for the grandkids...with the SEAL team and the people coming together and all... but just let it go. You'll have other boats and all the memories from this one...Acceptance is the key to all your problems. You've still got the trailer, right?
On what basis are these comments made? If he "lets it go" so to speak he's still going to pay someone out the ass for recovering the boat.. Even if he never gets it back. Lake Piru sure as hell isn't going to pay for it. A far as never getting it under way again, well that all depends on what happens when they finally pull it out of the water. Could be not nearly as bad off as you think.
RD

[RiverDave]

Froggy,
That's one heck of a dive and your the man for doin it. I've read the entire thread and you have a serious dive job ahead of you.
However, having done these deals in the past and also having made some mistakes and having learned from them I feel obligated to speak up and offer some insight.
Your dive plan is almost fool proof but here is something to consider:
Instead of diving to the vessel with a bag and rigging just take a rope and a shackle to the bow eye. Easier dive and no snags this way you spend less energy namhandeling bags, ropes and rigging. On that lift line rope have pre-tied loops every twenty feet. Dive and shackle the vessel and return to the dive boat. Swim down to the first loop @ twenty feet and place a bag, return to the dive boat. Fill the bag and raise the boat twenty feet up. You may initially need to apply pressure to the sunk vessel with the tow boat and lift line to break it free from bottom silt suction. After the bag surfaces swim down and place the next bag at the next loop down. After the first hook-up dive you will only be diving twenty feet at any time. The vessel will come up twenty feet at a time and you have much less risk involved. If you do try to run a bag on the bow eye initially you may very well have a mess on your hands due to air expansion from 127 foot depth. That vessel will surely be on a rocket mission for the surface and the bag will be banging the safety over-pressure valves, the bag will likely not survive the task. When the bag brakes the surface from the bottom to the surface the pressure and speed will be so great and the thing will come up with such force the bag will clear the waters surface and when it re-enters the water the weight on the down stroke will likely cause bag failure, (straps, clips and or RF welds) on the bag itself. Better to do it slowly and methodically then to involve danger and risk, not to mention having to relocate and redive the vessel due to an oversight. Once the vessel is safely hanging on a 2000#er near the surface slowly tow it to shallow water so you can then begin rigging the rear stern cleats and then raise the gunnels and pump it out.
Other then considering using this process I think you guys have it pretty well covered.
You may want to have at your handy one 2000# bow eye bag.
Two 1000# bags for each stearn cleat.
If no stern cleats? Use the two 1000#er's with a 12" - 16" strap connecting the two bags and cradle the bottom back of the vessel. Don't forget to tie off the tops of each rear bag so they can't spit our either side when filling.
Froggy, I know you are well qualified and more then capable of the task but if you have any questions, would like to brain storm or have any questions, call me. Diver safety is priority!!!
Good luck guys!!! GREG
Vessel Assist Needles
Metropolitan Marine Solutions
I think the lift bags he was planning on using aren't "sealed" units.. They are more like a parachute (as it was explained to me) where by which you start pumping air underneath them and they capture it. As the bag would rise and the air would expand excess air would just bleed off the sides.
RD

[RitcheyRch]

Well said. Cant imagine much damage other than might be missing some interior pieces which most likely will be getting replaced.
On what basis are these comments made? If he "lets it go" so to speak he's still going to pay someone out the ass for recovering the boat.. Even if he never gets it back. Lake Piru sure as hell isn't going to pay for it. A far as never getting it under way again, well that all depends on what happens when they finally pull it out of the water. Could be not nearly as bad off as you think.
RD

[later]

Have you started getting any fines yet?
No fine as as of yet

[Classic Daycruiser]

Later, It seem's you are going to pay either way you look at it. Either you get the boat out of the lake or the state gets it out and you pay. I don't think the state is going to get a deal as you could.
Get the money (hell or high water), and get your boat back. There is a lot more help when the boat is above water, then when its 100+ ft below.
1) How much to does it cost to pull your boat out of 100+ feet of water, and put on your trailer? $3-4K
2) How much to fix it? $500-1500
3) How much to insure it? $300 a year
Your going to pay 1) either way you look at it.

[Classic Daycruiser]

The boat probably looks like this, just 98 feet deeper. :idea:

[sleekcraft78]

The boat probably looks like this, just 98 feet deeper. :idea:
Wow we got ourselves a smart one here. Yes thats what a boat looks like under water.
Quit being such an ass and give later some support Jackazz. If you were in his shoes everyone would be helping you too.

[Jrocket]

So whats the fine for diving without permission?Im picturing a slow quiet Wednesday early morning and some stealth diving.

[RiverDave]

So whats the fine for diving without permission?Im picturing a slow quiet Wednesday early morning and some stealth diving.
Exactly... If it was my boat I think I'd just go out there with the guys and go get it, then deal with the consequences (what consequences?) after the fact. Apollogize to the guy as your driving out the gate, to never look back.
RD

[ChumpChange]

It's always easier to apologize than to ask for permission! :)

[Jrocket]

A boat in impound is better than one at the bottom of the lake,no? I bet the fine is cheaper than the insurance and permits to even do the job in the first place.

[rrrr]

So whats the fine for diving without permission?Im picturing a slow quiet Wednesday early morning and some stealth diving.
:crossx: :crossx:
I was the "salvage master" on a jet boat recovery years ago, my friend's boat went down in 60' of water at Lake Travis (near Austin).
We gathered all the typical equipment but needed a "dive barge". Me and my buddy went to the local boat rental and got a 24' pontoon to "go look at the fall colors with our wives".
Next day, the rental owner appeared on a jetski and was raising hell because we had a 7 kW generator, an air compressor, a 2" submersible pump, 4 poly 55 gallon drums rigged with harnesses and vent valves, 3 eight cubic foot air bladders, 35 scuba tanks, and four beer coolers on his boat. :argue:
Sez me "Just doing a little diving"......... :220v: :220v:
Fortunately we were able to find the boat within an hour using the circular swim froggystyle described earlier. By the time the rental guy showed up we had the boat sitting level six feet under water. We got the nose up with the bladder bags, towed it to shore, pumped it out, and put it on the trailer.
It took a year of repair (mostly a money issue), but the boat ran again.
The rental guy looked his 'toon over with a microscope when we returned it, but we got the deposit back. :D :D

[Her454]

Exactly... If it was my boat I think I'd just go out there with the guys and go get it, then deal with the consequences (what consequences?) after the fact. Apollogize to the guy as your driving out the gate, to never look back.
RD
Exactly........................

[later]

Huh,Stealth diving?.What's that?.Hey froggystyle.Havent heard from ya.Any ideas there?.

[Tequila-John]

:crossx: :crossx:
I was the "salvage master" on a jet boat recovery years ago, my friend's boat went down in 60' of water at Lake Travis (near Austin).
We gathered all the typical equipment but needed a "dive barge". Me and my buddy went to the local boat rental and got a 24' pontoon to "go look at the fall colors with our wives".
Next day, the rental owner appeared on a jetski and was raising hell because we had a 7 kW generator, an air compressor, a 2" submersible pump, 4 poly 55 gallon drums rigged with harnesses and vent valves, 3 eight cubic foot air bladders, 35 scuba tanks, and four beer coolers on his boat. :argue:
Sez me "Just doing a little diving"......... :220v: :220v:
Fortunately we were able to find the boat within an hour using the circular swim froggystyle described earlier. By the time the rental guy showed up we had the boat sitting level six feet under water. We got the nose up with the bladder bags, towed it to shore, pumped it out, and put it on the trailer.
It took a year of repair (mostly a money issue), but the boat ran again.
The rental guy looked his 'toon over with a microscope when we returned it, but we got the deposit back. :D :D
Great story bud...

[VanDeano]

I would at least try to locate the boat first. :idea: This way all the people donating there time and effort isn't going to waste looking for a needle in a hay stack.

[stompnstang]

john the bullshit with the insurance is the same shiit i was telling you about with all the red tape..you "SHOULD" beable to goto any insurance place and get a bond on froggy. thats how i had to do it with joe to get around all the red tape.. if i can find the papers fro what i had i will fax them out to you so you have a idea what i was talking about.. i could not get ahold of joe yesterday but the bags are still yours if wanted and ill get them out just in case.
good luck and if you need anything more you got my e-mail
be well and safe
stomp

[Classic Daycruiser]

Wow we got ourselves a smart one here. Yes thats what a boat looks like under water.
Quit being such an ass and give later some support Jackazz. If you were in his shoes everyone would be helping you too.
SleekAss78 I thought the picture might be of some encouragement as to the boats condition below water. I have not seen you offer up any help, but then again maybe we will hear on ***boats how you save the day :idea:

[Her454]

SleekAss78 I thought the picture might be of some encouragement as to the boats condition below water. I have not seen you offer up any help, but then again maybe we will hear on ***boats how you save the day :idea:
I thought it was cool pic........... Glad its not my boat, but a cool pic. Later, if its any consolation, my boat was under overnight and I brought her back up, drained the water of it, changed the oil a (few) times and she fired right up. Lots of damage to the seats and some on the bottom from dragging her up but for the most part she was good as new after some TLC. Fleetimus lost his for several weeks during the nasty winter storms we had and couldn't find it....... lots of people helped out and he eventually pulled his up too and he's back enjoying it now. Don't give up.

[later]

Maybe some good news.I spoke to blackledge diving.Ron,who is the owner is to get back with me about this,but it might be possiable to have him come out and attach a rope on the boat and then we can proceed with the lift ourselfs.Blackledge is one of the salvage firms that Piru uses.So,maybe if he would be willing to do this,that would save the day.I still am waiting for his call and I hope he will be willing to do this.Don't know what the charge would be but it's better than $4000 a day.I will keep my fingers crossed.

[BooBie Bouncer]

Later is a good friend of mine and what I have seen him go through in the last few weeks is not good.This Boat from day one has been his everything and mind you this is his third Boat.Because of all the red tape and money issues I ask that we all help him get back out there because boating is his life and as well keeps his wife and kids happy.This guy is a good person and this did'nt need to happen to a better person.As a fellow boater I will do all I can to see him and his family back out there having fun like it should be. :)

[Cupid]

Why does'nt ***boat do an artical on this Guy.Seem's like ***boat would step up and help with this.Later,has anybody donated yet? or has ***boat been intouch with you.This is crazy. Somebody said if everybody who veiws this thread and donated $2.00 it would cover more than enough.Step up people.Mines in the mail

[sleekcraft78]

SleekAss78 I thought the picture might be of some encouragement as to the boats condition below water. I have not seen you offer up any help, but then again maybe we will hear on ***boats how you save the day :idea:
Tought it was a cool pic also but it seems that you only have negativity towards Later. Why? Give the guy a chance. I got a pic almost as cool as yours, Yes it was mine and it does run again, but shit encourage the guy.
Sleekass78, I like it.
I wish I could help but I am in NorCal, All I can say is good luck and be safe.
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/15191CIMG1594-med.JPG

[rrrr]

The importance of "Boat Insurance" would make a great article. Using this boat as an example, as well as a few other incidents (Eliminator/Advantage collision at Lake Havasu).
Although I have regular insurance on my boat, I don't think I have workmens comp insurance on my boat.
Just an FYI about the definition of "General Liability" and Workman's Comp" insurance......these are business or commercial type policies.
GL covers the same stuff your car or homeowner's liability does, plus some other things. For example, if your employees burn down a building while working there, it's covered.
GL also can cover "completed operations". If your company builds a footbridge and it collapses and hurts someone, you're covered, even if you finished the work some time ago. How long depends on the policy. Car/truck liability is covered too, specifying "named drivers" or "all drivers", which is what I have. One of my brother's employees totalled an F150 that belonged to my company, the insurance covered it and damage to the other car.
WC is required by law (in Texas). Simply stated, it covers your employees if they are hurt in an accident while on the clock working for you. It is expensive as hell, and accidents make it even higher. The accident will affect rates for YEARS. :rolleyes:
I would pay out $4-5K before I would report an OTJ injury. If one of my guys gets a cut that needs stitches, we take 'em to the ER or Doc-in-the Box and pay with a credit card.
As you can see, WC isn't something you need (or would be able to get) for your boat. Just a standard liability policy (plus whatever loss coverage you decide upon) is all that's needed. Of course, insuring a 25 year old v drive or jet for loss is just about impossible....

[coolchange]

Maybe you could call the College of Oceaneering in L.A. harbor. Someone there might do it as a field trip or extra credit!? J/K, but they might have some info. That was going to be my career path back in the day.

[rrrr]

http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/15191CIMG1594-med.JPG
That musta been one fatass guy you were pulling in the tube...... :p

[ratso]

Exactly... If it was my boat I think I'd just go out there with the guys and go get it, then deal with the consequences (what consequences?) after the fact. Apollogize to the guy as your driving out the gate, to never look back.
RD
...my way of thinking exactly.
My nephew sunk his jet boat in about 20 feet of water. We located it and used a rescue boat that had a winch on it. We got it up and got the Hell outta Dodge before the Corp of Engineers or some enviro nuts found out about it. You start asking around too much or getting permission to do things, somebody is gonna get into your pocketbook. I do everything possible in "Stealth Mode".

[rerfert]

Could Later sign over a boat bill of sale to Froggy and Froggy then dive on his own boat to get around the insurance?

[later]

I'm up for that one.Could it be done?.

[Her454]

That musta been one fatass guy you were pulling in the tube...... :p
ROTFLMFAO! What the hell happened there?

[YeLLowBoaT]

1st let me say:
I wish you the best of luck. if you only closer...
Now that you have opened a can of worms, by talking to alot of ppl... have you talked with lawyer versed in "maritime law". They should be able to tell you exactly what your rights are...there are alot of things that can "muddy the waters" about, who has what power.

[ratso]

Hey 454... I remember when your trailer got sunk too...
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/3036topless.JPG

[Her454]

Hey 454... I remember when your trailer got sunk too...
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/3036topless.JPG
Yea I moved up higher and got me a big ol double wide now. :rollside:

[ratso]

lmao... :D

[Tom Brown]

I'll share my last salvage experience. Perhaps Wes will find it to be of help.
This was a few years ago now but it was a home-built boat. I made it out of galvanized sheet metal and powered it with an industrial weed-wacker engine. A buddy of mine worked for the company that had the contract to maintain the city's weed wackers so he scooped me up a bunch of parts.
Oh... I should mention it was a model boat, about 4' long. I spent a couple of months setting it up and found it would go a wee bit faster with some of the deck cut away and the floatation removed. With the deck cut away, there was no place for the floatation, anyway.
One day I was running it in some extreemly windy conditions, jumping waves. It was always fun but, for some reason, it took a weird twist off the top of a roller and spin into the water like a cork-screw. No problem, it was only in about 6 feet of water.
I went out in the boat but couldn't find it. The water was churned up pretty good given the wind conditions. I went out later when it was calm and couldn't find it then, either. I tried looking for it with a snorkel and fins since the water is quite clear. A buddy of mine was licensed so I asked him to dive for it. He had been on underwater searches before and had some training. He made circular patterns out to about a several hundred foot circle but found nothing.
So in the end, despite sinking a couple of hundred feet from our private pier, in 6' of water where we can see the bottom, in a place that I should have been able to locate within a few yards, to the boat has never been recovered.
Am I bitter? You better believe it. :mad:

[wsuwrhr]

I feel the same way about the situation.
Why do you need to "ask" for permission?
Don't make a production about it. Get to the spot, don the gear, dive in, get to work.
Froggy and Craig knows what needs to be done.
Forgetaboutit.
I'll offer up help to go out with the guys to do whatever needs to be done. Sounds like fun.
"Easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for persmission"
Brian

[wsuwrhr]

Huh,Stealth diving?.What's that?.Hey froggystyle.Havent heard from ya.Any ideas there?.
Steath diving? Are you serious?
Undetected clandestine activities.
Brian

[Tom Brown]

If this salvage operation works out, I might consider paying Froggy's way here. If he can find my boat and tie a line onto it, I could pull it up with a pocket fisherman.

[BajaMike]

By Law they can't take my boat with out notifying me or without my permission.That's theft is'nt it.There's no friggin way!
By law, I hate to say it, but I think who ever gets there first can probably claim title to your boat. It's not theft........Salvage and maritime law goes back thousands of years.
I think who ever gets there first can claim the boat. Even if you abandon a floating boat at sea, and someone recovers it, I think they generally own the boat or have a huge lean on it.
I'm just saying....it's complicated.... :mad:
:cool:

[Tom Brown]

I think who ever gets there first can claim the boat. Even if you abandon a floating boat at sea, and someone recovers it, I think they generally own the boat or have a huge lean on it.
I think it's worse than that. If you call for help and someone comes to help you, and you abandon your ship, I'm pretty sure they can claim it under salvage law.

[BajaMike]

I think it's worse than that. If you call for help and someone comes to help you, and you abandon your ship, I'm pretty sure they can claim it under salvage law.
Probably true....from Wicipedia.com....
Ship salvage and the law
When a ship or boat has been rescued or salvaged without prior agreement between the owner and the salvor, the salvor in some circumstances can legally claim recompense or "salvage rights". Although this rule seems to the disadvantage of the owner of the ship, its purpose is to encourage potential salvors to risk their vessels and use their working time for the benefit of both themselves and the ship owner.
Legal disputes do arise from the claiming of salvage rights. To reduce the risk of a claim after an accident, boat owners or skippers often remain on board and in command of the vessel; they do everything possible to minimise further loss and take no action that implies that the ship seeks rescue. If another vessel offers a tow the skipper negotiates the reward before accepting the offer and providing the tow rope.
:idea:

[Havasu1986]

I think I saw this on CSI Miami recently.

[BajaMike]

I think I saw this on CSI Miami recently.
If you can watch that show and sit through that moran David Caruso taking his sunglasses on and off and trying to pretend to be a real actor, you deserve a medal!!!:D
There's a new drinking game where you take a shot every time he takes them off or squints into the camera....that show is "REAL DRAMA".....:D
:eat: :2purples: :eat: :2purples:

[Tom Brown]

Hey Rio, my VCR is blinking "12:00". Can you walk me through setting it?

[BajaMike]

Froggy,
That's one heck of a dive and your the man for doin it. I've read the entire thread and you have a serious dive job ahead of you.
However, having done these deals in the past and also having made some mistakes and having learned from them I feel obligated to speak up and offer some insight.
Your dive plan is almost fool proof but here is something to consider:
Instead of diving to the vessel with a bag and rigging just take a rope and a shackle to the bow eye. Easier dive and no snags this way you spend less energy namhandeling bags, ropes and rigging. On that lift line rope have pre-tied loops every twenty feet. Dive and shackle the vessel and return to the dive boat. Swim down to the first loop @ twenty feet and place a bag, return to the dive boat. Fill the bag and raise the boat twenty feet up. You may initially need to apply pressure to the sunk vessel with the tow boat and lift line to break it free from bottom silt suction. After the bag surfaces swim down and place the next bag at the next loop down. After the first hook-up dive you will only be diving twenty feet at any time. The vessel will come up twenty feet at a time and you have much less risk involved. If you do try to run a bag on the bow eye initially you may very well have a mess on your hands due to air expansion from 127 foot depth. That vessel will surely be on a rocket mission for the surface and the bag will be banging the safety over-pressure valves, the bag will likely not survive the task. When the bag brakes the surface from the bottom to the surface the pressure and speed will be so great and the thing will come up with such force the bag will clear the waters surface and when it re-enters the water the weight on the down stroke will likely cause bag failure, (straps, clips and or RF welds) on the bag itself. Better to do it slowly and methodically then to involve danger and risk, not to mention having to relocate and redive the vessel due to an oversight. Once the vessel is safely hanging on a 2000#er near the surface slowly tow it to shallow water so you can then begin rigging the rear stern cleats and then raise the gunnels and pump it out.
Other then considering using this process I think you guys have it pretty well covered.
You may want to have at your handy one 2000# bow eye bag.
Two 1000# bags for each stearn cleat.
If no stern cleats? Use the two 1000#er's with a 12" - 16" strap connecting the two bags and cradle the bottom back of the vessel. Don't forget to tie off the tops of each rear bag so they can't spit our either side when filling.
Froggy, I know you are well qualified and more then capable of the task but if you have any questions, would like to brain storm or have any questions, call me. Diver safety is priority!!!
Good luck guys!!! GREG
Vessel Assist Needles
Metropolitan Marine Solutions
"Vessel Assist" should have more info on this...that's his business, but imagine this....your boat stalls out in a storm right as your pulling into Site 6, and you're drifting into the rocks, and someone pulls up to you and you say, "tow me out of here, I'll pay you whatever our want" (you have made a legal contract), and he tows you to safety, he could have a claim on your boat, worth up to the full value of your boat......scary...huh??
It happens all the time...review the admiralty law cases posted on the Internet and Boating magazine.
It's scary...... :idea:
:cool:

[later]

Well I will tell ya,I have been veiwing these things about my boat possiably being takin from me and I have to say this.Not again.The reason for this statement is that when I had my sleekcraft tunnel I was just restoring that boat.I sold my Miller to get into the sleek.Just as things progressed with the sleek I had a guy turn the corner on my block and take out my suv and I just paid that off a day before and he landed on the grass in the front yard and hit the side of the sleek and then pushed the boat into the camper,took the front end out and then into the garage.At that time my wife and I were just saving for a house and we lived with the inlaws.Home owners took care of $1000 dollars damage on the boat which did not do anything compaired to the damages he did and as far as the suv I only had comp insurence.He had no insurence so I lost everything basically.I save alittle to get this boat and the rest came from our tax return.It took us 2 years to get this boat and the kids were thrilled to be on the lake again enjoying summer and now this.It's a sad story and for me,it breaks my heart to start over again.So please no more of the claiming of the boat.I know it maybe who gets it first but it's killing me.I hope this bad turns to good.Thanks everybody for the support,I love ya all.John Case

[BajaMike]

Inland waters are covered by different laws than the deep blue sea.
However, if "someone" has recovered said boat from where ever, they can basically lay claim for expenses (call it a salvage lien).
Sic um,
Rio
Rio, I don't think anyone is argueing your point....the salvager doesn't own the boat, but could have a lien on the boat for cost of recovery, which if it exceeds the value of the boat, he will basicly own the boat after the courts review it.
:idea:

[BajaMike]

Well I will tell ya,I have been veiwing these things about my boat possiably being takin from me and I have to say this.Not again.The reason for this statement is that when I had my sleekcraft tunnel I was just restoring that boat.I sold my Miller to get into the sleek.Just as things progressed with the sleek I had a guy turn the corner on my block and take out my suv and I just paid that off a day before and he landed on the grass in the front yard and hit the side of the sleek and then pushed the boat into the camper,took the front end out and then into the garage.At that time my wife and I were just saving for a house and we lived with the inlaws.Home owners took care of $1000 dollars damage on the boat which did not do anything compaired to the damages he did and as far as the suv I only had comp insurence.He had no insurence so I lost everything basically.I save alittle to get this boat and the rest came from our tax return.It took us 2 years to get this boat and the kids were thrilled to be on the lake again enjoying summer and now this.It's a sad story and for me,it breaks my heart to start over again.So please no more of the claiming of the boat.I know it maybe who gets it first but it's killing me.I hope this bad turns to good.Thanks everybody for the support,I love ya all.John Case
John, no one here is against you, and I'm just trying to state the facts (as well as us Jailhouse/Internet lawyers can) regarding the "worst case scenerio".
The facts are, no one is going to "salvage" the boat because the cost to a commercial salvage company is probably more then the boat is worth.
Stick with those who have offered help if you can....I think that is your best hope....and some of those involved have some experiance with "stealth" operations :idea:
Good luck to you!!
:cool:

[3 daytona`s]

Hey Rio, my VCR is blinking "12:00". Can you walk me through setting it?
UNPLUG, :idea: THROW AWAY

[sleekcraft137]

That musta been one fatass guy you were pulling in the tube...... :pLMFAO!!!! :cry: and crying...thats some funny stuff right there!

[Tom Brown]

I hooked up my nuther computer to my CB radio but I'll be damned if I can figger out which channel to use. Any ideas?
I'd try channel 19, AM band. That seems to be the channel that works best in Chris Kristofferson movies.

[later]

Spoke to lynns towing this morning and he is going to try and find a insured diver or #'s for the insurence.I will kind everybody posted.Tomorrow we find the boat.Look's like some of you are starting new thread on this thread.Why?.

[RiverDave]

Spoke to lynns towing this morning and he is going to try and find a insured diver or #'s for the insurence.I will kind everybody posted.Tomorrow we find the boat.Look's like some of you are starting new thread on this thread.Why?.
It's just the nature of a message board. Threads usually don't stay on topic for that long. Everybody is still with ya John and looking forward to hearing the results of both the phone calls, and the boat find expedition.
RD

[RitcheyRch]

Good luck in finding the boat. Keep us posted. We are all cheering for you.
It's just the nature of a message board. Threads usually don't stay on topic for that long. Everybody is still with ya John and looking forward to hearing the results of both the phone calls, and the boat find expedition.
RD

[later]

Well here it is folks.It's now to a head and at the end of the rope.Blackledge diving is coming out thursday of next week to extract the boat.I have exuasted all my avenues and decided that it would be best for everybodys safty to go this route.A deep dive like this is dangerous so I feel more safe by doing it this way.They were able to allow me to pay $1000 down and make payments of $500 a month untill fully paid.It comes out to $4000.Im in the hole now but atleast it will come to an end.Thank you so much for the support and effort.This site rocks and I will keep you informed as this goes on.Thank you again.John Case

[RitcheyRch]

Are you going to be out there as well to get pictures?
Well here it is folks.It's now to a head and at the end of the rope.Blackledge diving is coming out thursday of next week to extract the boat.I have exuasted all my avenues and decided that it would be best for everybodys safty to go this route.A deep dive like this is dangerous so I feel more safe by doing it this way.They were able to allow me to pay $1000 down and make payments of $500 a month untill fully paid.It comes out to $4000.Im in the hole now but atleast it will come to an end.Thank you so much for the support and effort.This site rocks and I will keep you informed as this goes on.Thank you again.John Case

[Tequila-John]

Well here it is folks.It's now to a head and at the end of the rope.Blackledge diving is coming out thursday of next week to extract the boat.I have exuasted all my avenues and decided that it would be best for everybodys safty to go this route.A deep dive like this is dangerous so I feel more safe by doing it this way.They were able to allow me to pay $1000 down and make payments of $500 a month untill fully paid.It comes out to $4000.Im in the hole now but atleast it will come to an end.Thank you so much for the support and effort.This site rocks and I will keep you informed as this goes on.Thank you again.John Case
John,
That is great news buddy. Its nice to know you are looking out for everyones safty first then your boat. Good luck brother and get some pics ok?

[later]

Are you going to be out there as well to get pictures?Yes I will be there to take pics and film this as well.Then I will put this on ***boat.Still think ***boat should write an artical on this.
:)

[RitcheyRch]

Agree, ***boat should do an article on this. Sent a donation, should get in next day or so. Is not a lot but every bit should help.
Yes I will be there to take pics and film this as well.Then I will put this on ***boat.Still think ***boat should write an artical on this.
:)

[Tequila-John]

Agree, ***boat should do an article on this. Sent a donation, should get in next day or so. Is not a lot but every bit should help.
Good luck. I can't even get ***boat to send me my "FREE T-SHIRT" with my magazine subscription i setup over a year ago...

[centerhill condor]

good choice! hire a specialist and sleep well! good luck!

[roostwear]

John, take a couple minutes and sign up on Paypal (if you're not already). Attach a donation button to your signature... I would have no problem tossing you a few bucks to help ea$e the pain of rcovering your boat.

[RitcheyRch]

Unfortunately, I had the same issue with the t-shirt. You need to call them and tell them you want the shirt. They dont automatically send it out.
Good luck. I can't even get ***boat to send me my "FREE T-SHIRT" with my magazine subscription i setup over a year ago...

[later]

Hey guys,thanks for the donations,sure helps and right now I need all I can get.Thank you Thank you Thank you.If anybody needs the address,here it is. John Case 17727 Tribune st.Granada Hills,Ca.91344 Again Thank you.

[Classic Daycruiser]

OK John,
Now that you have the boat being removed from the lake, its time to get a phase two plan ready for when the boat is on the trailer.
I would think you'll need to pull the engine and disassemble it within a few hours.
Borrow the engine hoist and stand
Get a case of wd-40, a lot of rags,
Borrow parts rack to put the cleaned/preserved parts on,
Get case of cheap oil.
Borrow High pressure washer
Find 6-8 guys (with mechanical aptitude) ready to help, and with tools, split up into two teams. Engine Team/Boat Team.
Good Luck John
And one photographer to document.

[later]

John, take a couple minutes and sign up on Paypal (if you're not already). Attach a donation button to your signature... I would have no problem tossing you a few bucks to help ea$e the pain of rcovering your boat.
Not to sure if I did this right,But under email it is johncase@chace.com

[RitcheyRch]

No problem with the donation. Like said, it isnt a lot but every bit helps.
Hey guys,thanks for the donations,sure helps and right now I need all I can get.Thank you Thank you Thank you.If anybody needs the address,here it is. John Case 17727 Tribune st.Granada Hills,Ca.91344 Again Thank you.

[roostwear]

Come on people! Send John the cost of a few gallons of the gas you'd be burning this weekend. Step up and help out a boater in need. If for no other reason..... karma's a bitch!

[switchin'addiction]

Come on people! Send John the cost of a few gallons of the gas you'd be burning this weekend. Step up and help out a boater in need. If for no other reason..... karma's a bitch!
I have to say I agree..........I threw John a little something in the mail this afternoon!!

[Her454]

I figure if I can send cash to some guy I dont even know that drags a boat across country on a Death Pool I can send this guy some help too.
:rollside: :rollside:
Karma, Karma Karma. Good luck John.

[Tequila-John]

I figure if I can send cash to some guy I dont even know that drags a boat across country on a Death Pool I can send this guy some help too.
:rollside: :rollside:
Karma, Karma Karma. Good luck John.
WOW your so nice. :)

[Her454]

WOW your so nice. :)
Or just a sucker LOL. I figure what goes around comes around at some point. Could be my boat down there. :cry:

[Tequila-John]

Or just a sucker LOL. I figure what goes around comes around at some point. Could be my boat down there. :cry:
Honestly i would hate to be in John's shoes right now.

[roostwear]

I have to say I agree..........I threw John a little something in the mail this afternoon!!
Very cool... and if people think it's too much trouble to mail something (yeesh, the internet age), just Paypal him something at this email address johncase@chace.com

[later]

This is awsom.Thank you so much!

[Tequila-John]

This is awsom.Thank you so much!
Make sure you take pics bud....

[later]

Got my camara ready. :)

[DansBlown73Nordic]

Back in the Day....about 20 years ago. My Dad did alot of wreck diving on the St Lawrence river here in New York State...He had wanted for years to Dive a ship called the "Victoria" It was a three masted Schooner that sunk in the 1800's. We had a pretty good idea how to find it. We dropped an anchor and him and another guy went down. It was in about 100 feet of water. They got to the bottom on the anchor line. They turned a 180 and the ship was five feet behind them.
My point being finding it shouldn't be that big a deal...
Tom I hope you find your sheet metal boat..... :rolleyes:

[wsuwrhr]

$4000?
Wow, that is alot of jing.
Damn, could have donated half of that to the Seal team and they would have been estatic I'm sure.
I would rather pay people I know than strangers. At least I can expect good work.
Brian

[later]

$4000?
Wow, that is alot of jing.
Damn, could have donated half of that to the Seal team and they would have been estatic I'm sure.
I would rather pay people I know than strangers. At least I can expect good work.
Brian
Problem with the seal team was that they did not have insurence and Lake Piru requiered that.More than that was the safety of those guys,I would hate myself forever if something happened to them on my behalf.Better to use an alfit that does this all the time.The only draw back is the money but im sure things will prevail.God is with me. :rollside:

[Tequila-John]

I am pretty much tired of this cliche, especially when it is used to guilt people into doing something that "Bad" karma has nothing to do with. Are people going to "get theirs" because they did not toss him some coinage? I don't think so. Might people get smiled on by the good karma? Yah...but I don't think good Karma is a bitch.
I am sending him money not because of karma, nor because he is on a budget. I sent him money because he had the good sense to put the safety of people ahead of his financial needs. I wanted to post that I was not big on the whole Froggy deal, but I did not want to be seen as being negative.
You know what is bad karma? Driving a clown boat. :D Oh, and frying up some kittens in a skillet with pork chops is right up there too. :D
:argue:

[wsuwrhr]

Problem with the seal team was that they did not have insurence and Lake Piru requiered that.More than that was the safety of those guys,I would hate myself forever if something happened to them on my behalf.Better to use an alfit that does this all the time.The only draw back is the money but im sure things will prevail.God is with me. :rollside:
Yes sir.
I hope you get your boat back too.
Brian

[Searcher]

Well enough of the idle chit-chat. The time for talking is over. You guys help John out however you can and I'll be out on Piru with him tomorrow with my trusty Lowrance to look for his boat. After having a rather productive day fishing Castaic today I might be able to fend off the urge to pull into a cove and wet a line....until we find this thing. For $4000 Froggy could probably buy a policy and have enough left over to buy me a beer! Maybe one for you too. Maybe even enough to have one himself? Given enough of the frothy beverage I might even bust some knuckles helping with the tear down.Sounds like a party to me. Hand me a 9/16" open-end and an open 12oz.

[rerfert]

I figure if I can send cash to some guy I dont even know that drags a boat across country on a Death Pool I can send this guy some help too.
Good luck John.
I was thinking the same thing....John if I send you a $20 will you consider filling the bow with foam??

[Desert Rat]

Later I sent a few $$ your way, I remember when I was young (barely) and just had enough coin to play let alone have to deal with bureaucratic B.S. hope all turns out well and no matter what anyone else states I can use all the GOOD karma I can get, I have some atonement to make up for :crossx:

[Rexone]

Hey Rio, my VCR is blinking "12:00". Can you walk me through setting it?
Tom I believe your gdamn vcr has been f***ing around with my microwave oven.

[RitcheyRch]

My thinking as well. He should get my donation in the next day or so.
I figure if I can send cash to some guy I dont even know that drags a boat across country on a Death Pool I can send this guy some help too.
:rollside: :rollside:
Karma, Karma Karma. Good luck John.

[roostwear]

You know what is bad karma? Driving a clown boat. :D Oh, and frying up some kittens in a skillet with pork chops is right up there too. :D
No, bad karma is not even knowing what it's called. As far as kittens in a skillet, don't know what you mean, and don't care to.