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View Full Version : Proper raft up/tie up etiquette



Magic34
09-20-2006, 02:05 PM
With some cool events planned this weekend :crossx:, what do you feel are some proper things to remember when involving yourself in a raft-up?
Here are some of the things I think and a lot of this is based from past experince at Lake Pleasant where all you do is tie up every day.
1. If you have an anchor, use it. Holding a ton of boats in place is a biatch somtimes.
2. Dont walk across other people's bow of their boat. I spend a lot of time keeping my boat clean, as many of others do and we dont want some drenched person walking across a clean deck. Besides, you might slip and fall.
3. If you have squirt guns, use them on yourself/kids, not others you just met or dont know.
4. Make sure you have enough fenders for your boat and enough rope.
5. When walking from boat to boat, try to use the rear swim platforms, or dont walk, swim instead.
6. When swimming, look out for props. Especially ones on #6 drives.
7. Have fun and meet some new friends.
What would you add?

centerhill condor
09-20-2006, 02:13 PM
8. don't play the music too loud or don't play any at all. Just 'cause you like "boot scoot boogie" at 100 Db doesn't mean everyone else will.
9. no trash in the water! think globally act locally. A clean lake starts with you!

Her454
09-20-2006, 02:16 PM
DONT THROW DRINKS/BEER BOTTLES ACROSS ANYONES BOAT, YOU JUST MIGHT HIT THEIR DECK AND TAKE A CHUNK OF IT OUT! :yuk: :cry:
Stupid, stupid stupid. :mad:

squirt'nmyload
09-20-2006, 02:16 PM
With some cool events planned this weekend :crossx:, what do you feel are some proper things to remember when involving yourself in a raft-up?
Here are some of the things I think and a lot of this is based from past experince at Lake Pleasant where all you do is tie up every day.
1. If you have an anchor, use it. Holding a ton of boats in place is a biatch somtimes.
2. Dont walk across other people's bow of their boat. I spend a lot of time keeping my boat clean, as many of others do and we dont want some drenched person walking across a clean deck. Besides, you might slip and fall.
3. If you have squirt guns, use them on yourself/kids, not others you just met or dont know.
4. Make sure you have enough fenders for your boat and enough rope.
5. When walking from boat to boat, try to use the rear swim platforms, or dont walk, swim instead.
6. When swimming, look out for props. Especially ones on #6 drives.
7. Have fun and meet some new friends.
What would you add?
keep your extremely drunk people on YOUR OWN boat.
don't bring people that want to leave early.

AZKC
09-20-2006, 02:20 PM
If you have a light colored interior beware of jello shots falling from the sky :skull: :rollside:

sigepmock
09-20-2006, 02:21 PM
With some cool events planned this weekend :crossx:, what do you feel are some proper things to remember when involving yourself in a raft-up?
Here are some of the things I think and a lot of this is based from past experince at Lake Pleasant where all you do is tie up every day.
1. If you have an anchor, use it. Holding a ton of boats in place is a biatch somtimes.
2. Dont walk across other people's bow of their boat. I spend a lot of time keeping my boat clean, as many of others do and we dont want some drenched person walking across a clean deck. Besides, you might slip and fall.
3. If you have squirt guns, use them on yourself/kids, not others you just met or dont know.
4. Make sure you have enough fenders for your boat and enough rope.
5. When walking from boat to boat, try to use the rear swim platforms, or dont walk, swim instead.
6. When swimming, look out for props. Especially ones on #6 drives.
7. Have fun and meet some new friends.
What would you add?
Always....I mean always keep and eye on ColeTrickle.......you never know when he'll try and sneek into your boat and go poop!!!!!
oh yeah and never let him get ahold of your wife's cell number!! :cry: :yuk:

blackcloud75
09-20-2006, 02:27 PM
NO BEADS
I don't care how many times you showed your T1T's.....
Those stain the interior!!!!!!!!!!
And leave the Fun Nazi's at Home!!!!!!!!!!!

phebus
09-20-2006, 02:40 PM
If you have boats tied up to either side of you, don't leave early. If you think you might be going in early, anchor alone, or end tie.
Or, better yet, if you think you are leaving early.......just don't show up :D All for one, one for all.

Havasu1986
09-20-2006, 02:51 PM
Or don't tie up to Phebus

YeLLowBoaT
09-20-2006, 02:53 PM
ladys when your trying to walk drunk from boat to boat. make sure you fall on the guy trying to help you with your tits in his face. It happends to me all the time.

phebus
09-20-2006, 02:53 PM
Or don't tie up to Phebus
Only if you're in for the long haul. Looking forward to seeing you.

Keith E. Sayre
09-20-2006, 03:34 PM
1--make sure that there is no sand on your buoys or fenders that you position
between your boat and the other guys so you don't scratch anything as they
rub back and forth
2--make sure that you tie up next to someone with a similar hull height and
shape so that one of you doesn't have to sit there all day making sure the
buoys or fenders don't pop up or out etc.
3--try to park by people with similar groups of people, likes etc. in other words, if you have 3 small children who will be jumping and climbing and crying and whining all day long, try to find someone else with the same situation so that you can enjoy each others company and drama etc.
chances are some guy in a $750,000 Skater doesn't have much to shoot
the breeze about with a guy that's 19 years old with too many tattoos
and a bad attitude with 4 drunk whacked out friends who forgot to bring
chicks or beer!
Keith Sayre
Conquest Boats

Cole Trickle
09-20-2006, 03:39 PM
Always....I mean always keep and eye on ColeTrickle.......you never know when he'll try and sneek into your boat and go poop!!!!!
oh yeah and never let him get ahold of your wife's cell number!! :cry: :yuk:
I like all the rules except these two!!!!! :crossx: :cry: :p :D

djunkie
09-20-2006, 03:42 PM
1
2--make sure that you tie up next to someone with a similar hull height and
shape so that one of you doesn't have to sit there all day making sure the
buoys or fenders don't pop up or out etc.
Keith Sayre
Conquest Boats
This is always my problem. My sucks for tying to others. :( :( I'm freeboard challenged.

Jyruiz
09-20-2006, 03:48 PM
Guess I am anchoring alone, cause with kids, you never know when you are going to have to leave.

Froggystyle
09-20-2006, 03:49 PM
8. don't play the music too loud or don't play any at all. Just 'cause you like "boot scoot boogie" at 100 Db doesn't mean everyone else will.
What country are you from? No music?
Gong...
How about no buzzkills. Or mother hens.

Cole Trickle
09-20-2006, 03:53 PM
What country are you from? No music?
Gong...
How about no buzzkills. Or mother hens.
I try to be courteous but the stereo i usually on LOUD!!! :)

BoatFloating
09-20-2006, 03:53 PM
2. Dont walk across other people's bow of their boat. I spend a lot of time keeping my boat clean, as many of others do and we dont want some drenched person walking across a clean deck. Besides, you might slip and fall.
Man you would hate us.....
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/6951Death_Row.jpg

phebus
09-20-2006, 03:54 PM
Guess I am anchoring alone, cause with kids, you never know when you are going to have to leave.
Nah, this is RRX5. Happy, happy happy :D
Didn't they get the memo?

phebus
09-20-2006, 03:58 PM
2. Dont walk across other people's bow of their boat. I spend a lot of time keeping my boat clean, as many of others do and we dont want some drenched person walking across a clean deck. Besides, you might slip and fall.5. When walking from boat to boat, try to use the rear swim platforms, or dont walk, swim instead.
The beauty of a deckboat. Walk anywhere you want :D

AZKC
09-20-2006, 03:59 PM
I miss OP6C :cry: Just people having fun with people :crossx: Rules we don't need no stinkin rules :skull:

RiverDave
09-20-2006, 03:59 PM
Man you would hate us.....
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/6951Death_Row.jpg
I was just thinking the same thing.. LOL My next boat will be in the works here pretty quick, and when it's done..
Feel free to come over and tie up.. Jump in the water, walk across it, throw beads to any chicks that are in it, turn the stereo up, or down (usually up) Dive off the bow, Dive off the back, get in drenched or dry (your choice)
Just don't do anything that leaves any long term effects.. I.E. Don't burn a hole in my shit with your cigarette (I'm a smoker BTW) Don't throw a water balloon at my head unit (although I'd probably claim responsibillity for being stupid and leaving the cover open), and don't pour sugar in the gas tanks, I don't care how funny you think it is..
It's a boat, it's suppose to be fun.. fun fun fun.. got it? Fun. :D
RD <---- stir stir stir
P.S. As far as other boat owners and etiquette.. I only have hard "rule" (just about everything else I'm flexible becuase I'm on river time) YOU CAN NEVER HAVE TOO MUCH BOUIE.. I usually supply enough for both sides of me, but it'd be nice if somebody else showed up with the barrells for once. It gets old carrying around 6 of them everywhere I go.

squirt'nmyload
09-20-2006, 04:00 PM
And leave the Fun Nazi's at Home!!!!!!!!!!!
lmao...i call them fun voids or FTO's (fun time over)

djunkie
09-20-2006, 04:01 PM
I was just thinking the same thing.. LOL My next boat will be in the works here pretty quick, and when it's done..
Feel free to come over and tie up.. Jump in the water, walk across it, throw beads to any chicks that are in it, turn the stereo up, or down (usually up) Dive off the bow, Dive off the back, get in drenched or dry (your choice)
Just don't do anything that leaves any long term effects.. I.E. Don't burn a hole in my shit with your cigarette (I'm a smoker BTW) Don't throw a water balloon at my head unit (although I'd probably claim responsibillity for being stupid and leaving the cover open), and don't pour sugar in the gas tanks, I don't care how funny you think it is..
It's a boat, it's suppose to be fun.. fun fun fun.. got it? Fun. :D
RD <---- stir stir stir
FUN!!!!!!!!!!!! http://theinsideline.org/forums/images/smilies/141.gif :crossx: :crossx:

Magic34
09-20-2006, 05:31 PM
1--make sure that there is no sand on your buoys or fenders that you position
between your boat and the other guys so you don't scratch anything as they
rub back and forth
2--make sure that you tie up next to someone with a similar hull height and
shape so that one of you doesn't have to sit there all day making sure the
buoys or fenders don't pop up or out etc.
3--try to park by people with similar groups of people, likes etc. in other words, if you have 3 small children who will be jumping and climbing and crying and whining all day long, try to find someone else with the same situation so that you can enjoy each others company and drama etc.
chances are some guy in a $750,000 Skater doesn't have much to shoot
the breeze about with a guy that's 19 years old with too many tattoos
and a bad attitude with 4 drunk whacked out friends who forgot to bring
chicks or beer!
Keith Sayre
Conquest Boats
The 40' Skater owner this weekend is closer to 19 than the old guy. :rollside: :crossx:

Magic34
09-20-2006, 05:36 PM
Man you would hate us.....
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/6951Death_Row.jpg
You are probably right.....
Just kidding. I am a little overboard with the cleaning thing. Tonight, I'm cleaning the boat, and once I get to Havasu tomorrow, I'll do it again. I am a sick individual. I do have a problem, and my job only contributes to one of the many issues I have to battle with each day. Got any pills to help or do I need to go to a water rod owner for that. :rollside: :crossx: :D
Oh, and my next boat will be much higher in the bow area with electric rails to keep people off of it. :D

HavasuSelect
09-20-2006, 05:37 PM
I was just thinking the same thing.. LOL My next boat will be in the works here pretty quick, and when it's done..
Feel free to come over and tie up.. Jump in the water, walk across it, throw beads to any chicks that are in it, turn the stereo up, or down (usually up) Dive off the bow, Dive off the back, get in drenched or dry (your choice)
Just don't do anything that leaves any long term effects.. I.E. Don't burn a hole in my shit with your cigarette (I'm a smoker BTW) Don't throw a water balloon at my head unit (although I'd probably claim responsibillity for being stupid and leaving the cover open), and don't pour sugar in the gas tanks, I don't care how funny you think it is..
It's a boat, it's suppose to be fun.. fun fun fun.. got it? Fun. :D
RD <---- stir stir stir
P.S. As far as other boat owners and etiquette.. I only have hard "rule" (just about everything else I'm flexible becuase I'm on river time) YOU CAN NEVER HAVE TOO MUCH BOUIE.. I usually supply enough for both sides of me, but it'd be nice if somebody else showed up with the barrells for once. It gets old carrying around 6 of them everywhere I go.
Excellent post. I'm with you on this one. Even though I'm prob going to end up with 2 boats. A beater poon-toon for everything you just mentioned and the go-fast boat for everything everybody else mentioned.

seanv
09-20-2006, 05:40 PM
magic, if your refering to pleasant...dont tie up in the big mess. you will always see us with people we know so that we avoid
drama
boat equipment issues
music issues
etc etc
make for a far less stressful day afloat and usually peggs the fun meter!!
btw, your welcome to stop on over anytime were out.

Magic34
09-20-2006, 05:42 PM
magic, if your refering to pleasant...dont tie up in the big mess. you will always see us with people we know so that we avoid
drama
boat equipment issues
music issues
etc etc
make for a far less stressful day afloat and usually peggs the fun meter!!
btw, your welcome to stop on over anytime were out.
Thanks. I'm always tied up with my friends that have cruisers. I plug in and use their power. :D Something about those boats are growing on me.
We/cruiser boats got stuck somehow with the crowd once a few weeks ago. We simply untied them and they floated away since the cruiser anchors were the only ones sticking.

BoatFloating
09-20-2006, 05:48 PM
You are probably right.....
Just kidding. I am a little overboard with the cleaning thing. Tonight, I'm cleaning the boat, and once I get to Havasu tomorrow, I'll do it again. I am a sick individual. I do have a problem, and my job only contributes to one of the many issues I have to battle with each day. Got any pills to help or do I need to go to a water rod owner for that. :rollside: :crossx: :D
Oh, and my next boat will be much higher in the bow area with electric rails to keep people off of it. :D
It all comes down to respect. That picture is on Bling's 36' Nortech and people not wearing shoes etc. But water, beer and drinks clean up but if you stress about it then you're not having fun.....
Nothing to help your problem but I bet your boat looks good 24/7. My advice.... Have a Coke and a smile and enjoy yourself.... :)

Bradman
09-20-2006, 05:51 PM
I was just thinking the same thing.. LOL My next boat will be in the works here pretty quick, and when it's done..
Feel free to come over and tie up.. Jump in the water, walk across it, throw beads to any chicks that are in it, turn the stereo up, or down (usually up) Dive off the bow, Dive off the back, get in drenched or dry (your choice)
Just don't do anything that leaves any long term effects.. I.E. Don't burn a hole in my shit with your cigarette (I'm a smoker BTW) Don't throw a water balloon at my head unit (although I'd probably claim responsibillity for being stupid and leaving the cover open), and don't pour sugar in the gas tanks, I don't care how funny you think it is..
It's a boat, it's suppose to be fun.. fun fun fun.. got it? Fun. :D
RD <---- stir stir stir
P.S. As far as other boat owners and etiquette.. I only have hard "rule" (just about everything else I'm flexible becuase I'm on river time) YOU CAN NEVER HAVE TOO MUCH BOUIE.. I usually supply enough for both sides of me, but it'd be nice if somebody else showed up with the barrells for once. It gets old carrying around 6 of them everywhere I go.
Very well said. fun, fun fun...Pleanty of time to clean the boat after a FUN weekend. :rollside:

squirt'nmyload
09-20-2006, 05:57 PM
magic, if your refering to pleasant...dont tie up in the big mess. you will always see us with people we know so that we avoid
drama
boat equipment issues
music issues
etc etc
make for a far less stressful day afloat and usually peggs the fun meter!!
btw, your welcome to stop on over anytime were out.
we do the same thing there....its comical sometimes watching some guy try to drive 15 boats tied together away from the line of anchored boats they are about to hit!!!! what a buzzkill for them

Magic34
09-20-2006, 06:04 PM
It all comes down to respect. That picture is on Bling's 36' Nortech and people not wearing shoes etc. But water, beer and drinks clean up but if you stress about it then you're not having fun.....
Nothing to help your problem but I bet your boat looks good 24/7. My advice.... Have a Coke and a smile and enjoy yourself.... :)
I am not this stressed out freak out there :crossx:
You hit it on the head with respect. Some drunk a$$ walks across my bow, which is slippery as hell sometimes and falls and their watch or other jewelry scratch the heck out of the boat. If we're there with a few of us tied up together, no problem to walk and hang, but it is when you have a ton of boats and people just want to take a walk. I've seen people drop cans too, a lot.

BoatFloating
09-20-2006, 06:18 PM
I've seen people drop cans too, a lot.
A friend of a friend did that on Bling's boat he took it well but his wife about killed her. But I know what your talking about when you raft up with people you don't know that well...

MBlaster
09-20-2006, 06:39 PM
Guess I am anchoring alone, cause with kids, you never know when you are going to have to leave.
I'll be looking for you guys.

INSman
09-20-2006, 07:25 PM
Too many focken rules....
I am going to beach it and just swim up to Magic34's boat, grab some beers, and go watch movies all day in his Air Conditioned cabin :cool:

BajaMike
09-20-2006, 07:39 PM
1. If you have an anchor, use it. Holding a ton of boats in place is a biatch somtimes.
What would you add?
1.5. I would add.....if you don't have an anchor, don't launch your boat, and if you do launch, don't come near me or anyone else (only a moran would leave the shore without an anchor).
1.6. Learn how to use your anchor, and have plenty of line.....an anchor hanging straight down in Gasoline Alley or Copper Canyon isn't holding your boat, let alone everyone who ties up to you.
1.7. Have two anchors, and throw one out the front and one out the back.
:rollside: :) :rollside: :)

blackcloud75
09-20-2006, 07:57 PM
lmao...i call them fun voids or FTO's (fun time over)
aka fun seargents

acatitude
09-20-2006, 08:08 PM
we always have 5-8 boats or more tied together and we always line the transoms up for walking or usually are swimming anyways with at least 2-3 anchors out.... weve never had an issue with a middle boat leaving early, just untie and idle out and pull them together again..long as theres anchors on each end :rollside:
proper location for anchor line slack :rolleyes:

CornWater
09-20-2006, 08:19 PM
A friend of a friend did that on Bling's boat he took it well but his wife about killed her. But I know what your talking about when you raft up with people you don't know that well...
Good lord, you talking about yourself in the fourth person now???? At least you got the she part correct...
:cry:

RiverPirate
09-20-2006, 09:29 PM
Wow, this all sounds like just plain old common sense. Oh Ya, we are talking about boating at Havasu, there does seem to be a shortage of this at times. Hope for the best.

mbrown2
09-20-2006, 10:00 PM
Too many friggen rules....anchors, buoy's, good rope, good boat biatches and the rest is common sense....boats get a little beat up, just need to take care of them if they do...

LHC30Victory
09-20-2006, 10:18 PM
...line the transoms up for walking...with at least 2-3 anchors out.... weve never had an issue with a middle boat leaving early, just untie and idle out and pull them together again..long as theres anchors on each end :rollside:
This works all the time, two rows back to back AND ya can sit on the engine hatch and talk to everyone up and down the line.....

Jyruiz
09-20-2006, 10:23 PM
I'll be looking for you guys.
Cool, but I must warn you, I am part of the BC (boring crew) :)

Classic Daycruiser
09-20-2006, 10:52 PM
I have noticed over the last couple of years most of the boats tied up have alot of damage to the side, rails, and interior.
I saw 1 boat holding about 15 boats together with his anchor last year and watched his bow eye get ripe out when the wind shifted in the afternoon. Gelcoat and fiber glass looked like it exploded. I'm not sure how he towed it home on the trailer without a bow eye.
Then on another occasion a 220lb guy walked on the bow of a boat and broke through the plastic hatch cover.
Fact is, you can barely control the people/friends you bring with you.
Next time your at the lake, swim around some of the boats tied up. 90% are pretty messed up by the end of the season.

BoatFloating
09-21-2006, 06:42 AM
Good lord, you talking about yourself in the fourth person now???? At least you got the she part correct...
:cry:
Hell if it happed to your boat it would went thru that potato chip deck of yours. :cool:

Tremor Therapy
09-21-2006, 06:57 AM
I will probably end up as part of the boring crew as well. I was one of those guys with the only anchors in the water, and got tired of my boat being wrenched around by the weight of the other boats in the wind. So I'll probably raft up in a smaller crew...and I will end tie. I am not patient enough to just go from Windsor to Steamboat and sit all day! I got a boat so I could travel places on the water, and will more than likely split the scene some time during the day to check out the sandbar and Moabi.
Oh by the way...if you want to walk accross my freshly waxed bow go ahead. You will be getting wet (and bruised from the fall) very quickly! :p

HocusPocus
09-21-2006, 07:16 AM
1. don't tie up to anyones boat.
i quit that several years ago, it just leads to frustration. the last straw for me was when someone we met that day threw a lit cig butt into the water, the wind caught it and it landed on my engine cover :mad: no one will care for yourstuff as much as you do, afterall you paid for it and after several beers they care even less.

Dave C
09-21-2006, 07:31 AM
if you have a roll-bar boat with a big sail hanging from it.. that two pound anchor ain't gonna work.. especially when the afternoon wind comes up and when your 10 other buddies without anchors show up. :rollside:

Tremor Therapy
09-21-2006, 07:55 AM
BTW, the MSN weather forcast has winds from 15-20 mph for Saturday. Rafting up could be quite an adventure!

CornWater
09-21-2006, 08:05 AM
Hell if it happed to your boat it would went thru that potato chip deck of yours. :cool:
Nice... I just spit coffee all over the keyboard...
:D :D

Magic34
09-12-2007, 10:39 PM
Just an old thread from last year.
For me, the walking on the bow thing is no longer an issue. :D

Mattman
09-13-2007, 12:34 AM
Don't let your buddies girlfriend on the boat if she has a brand new red bikini that has never been wet before. Then it gets wet and bleeds all over your interior of the boat that has less than 2 hours on it. Also don't ask the same girl to hand you a one gallon jug of water. I was in the open bow and she was standing in the driver's seat. She slid the jug across the purple gel that was between the cockpit and open bow. Oh yea, don't wipe the sand of the bottom of the jug either!:mad:

88vector
09-13-2007, 01:51 AM
I personally don't get why people are always wiping the water off their boats. It is a boat, they go in the water, that is what water and vinegar or ducky is for at the end of the weekend. I will agree with no shoes and no sand however.

thatguy
09-13-2007, 02:20 AM
The 40' Skater owner this weekend is closer to 19 than the old guy. :rollside: :crossx:
Do you ever go to Shasta? I swear I saw that rig launching at Jones Valley in July.
Tommy

BoatFloating
09-13-2007, 09:12 AM
Funny if you ever see the drivers for Hot Boat or Power Boat they have no problem walking on a deck with shoes too......:eek:

Powerquestboy
09-13-2007, 10:19 AM
In my opinion the biggest problem with rafting up is some jack A$$ always brings a football and starts doing his best John Elway impersination. Well hes not John Elway and the next thing you know football has hit someones chic in the face, or f'ed up someones boat. Its like watching a slow motion train wreck, homeboy throws to another guy and misses by 20 yards. Ball hits girl in face and the next thing you know you have a fight on your hands.

Lightning
09-13-2007, 10:32 AM
I don't think this one has been mentioned.....
When un-rafting... Disconnect lines first, bouys second.

RiverDave
09-13-2007, 10:38 AM
In my opinion the biggest problem with rafting up is some jack A$$ always brings a football and starts doing his best John Elway impersination. Well hes not John Elway and the next thing you know football has hit someones chic in the face, or f'ed up someones boat. Its like watching a slow motion train wreck, homeboy throws to another guy and misses by 20 yards. Ball hits girl in face and the next thing you know you have a fight on your hands.
I could not agree more... I never understood the "have to throw something all the time" mentallity.. especially when there's a crowd?
RD

40FlatDeck
09-13-2007, 10:58 AM
Do you ever go to Shasta? I swear I saw that rig launching at Jones Valley in July.
Tommy
Are you talking about my Skater or Mikes new Formula? I have never been to Shasta...

HavasuSelect
09-13-2007, 11:07 AM
Don't let your buddies girlfriend on the boat if she has a brand new red bikini that has never been wet before. Then it gets wet and bleeds all over your interior
Are you sure it was the binkini that was bleeding :D

DeltaSigBoater
09-13-2007, 11:10 AM
I could not agree more... I never understood the "have to throw something all the time" mentallity.. especially when there's a crowd?
RD
I've been hit in the head several times and had my stuff damaged by stray footballs, firsbees, and other types of various "catch game objects." I'm all about giving people the chance to come over and appoligize, because accidents do happen. But when some douche hits my boat, one of my family/friends, or myself... then stands there and gives that "are you gonna give it back or am I going to have to come over there and kick your ass?' look. I 99:100 give it back but if it happens a 2nd time (which it normally does) then out comes the pocket knife or industrial shears, and that whatever it is they were throwing is either flat, in 2 or both.