Where Are the Jumbo Water Tankers?

[burtandnancy]

...he asked retorically, knowing full well that our state and fed politicos are keeping the DC-10 and 747 tankers from being used on our recent forest fires. Now we've got 4 dead firefighters that may have been prevented by someone merely signing the right documents.
One of the talking heads says it was because of the winds. BS, the news choppers are all over the place. These tankers are well proven they can be a great aid in these kind of fires...

[riverroyal]

im watching the san diego news,they were standing near 3 firefighting helocopters doing the news,cant the use them,its only 20 minutes away by air.No fires down here

[squirt'nmyload]

maybe they can take water out of lake piru to get the level down some more http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k265/squirtnmyload/biggrin2.gif

[JB in so cal]

The 747 and DC 10 are still considered "experimental" in that they aren't routinely called out. The fire service tried the dc 10 at the last palm springs fires...$25,000 per hour is tough to swallow, I guess. How many houses could be saved by launching at first report?? Who knows...

[Pheelin Phroggy]

Last we heard was there was a problem with the DC 10 being registered properly with the national forest service, as well as the federal government. They said they would be grounded until this technicality was corrected. Sucks, it flys out of So Cal Logistical Airport out by us and could be there quick style.

[burtandnancy]

Phrog, you are correct, its paperwork BS. The 747 Tanker is still up in McMinnville, OR at the Evergreen facility. Man, can that baby drop water...

[RitcheyRch]

And a 4 hour minimum.
The 747 and DC 10 are still considered "experimental" in that they aren't routinely called out. The fire service tried the dc 10 at the last palm springs fires...$25,000 per hour is tough to swallow, I guess. How many houses could be saved by launching at first report?? Who knows...

[Pheelin Phroggy]

We actually saw the DC 10 in action not long ago right behind our house, they grounded it the next day, we live close to deepcreek area and get alot of fires in our "back yard", its a shame, Bruce, your right, this thing drops some serious water and quite possibly could have saved some lives. Just a shame some of those that protect our happy asses had to die.

[FLOJO]

i work at the guard base next to point mugu we have c 130s that can put out the fires. the problem is that the private contractors have to try to put out the fire first, eventhough are planes are ready to go. we just started to take off all the markings on are planes. we flew in the canyon country fire about 2 years ago. its all poltics because everybody wants to make money.

[FLOJO]

heres a little story about us
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
by Staff Sgt. David Bartlett
Portland, Ore.
photo by Master Sgt. Val Gempis
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Ready ... Ready ... DROP!"
On this intercom command, the co-pilot on the flight deck and the loadmaster in back push separate buttons sending 2,700 gallons of fire retardant shooting through two large tubes poking out the back of the C-130.
When the red retardant billows out of the aircraft and onto the flame-filled brush and trees below, the huge Hercules jerks in the air, noses up slightly, and turns back to base.
Chalk up another sortie in the air war against California's wildfires. Who are these aerial firefighters? Air Force Reserve and Air National Guard crews flying C-130s fitted with Modular Airborne Fire Fighting Systems.
Two C-130s from the 302nd Airlift Wing's 731st Airlift Squadron at Peterson AFB, Colo., and two from the California Air National Guard's 146th Airlift Wing at Channel Islands, worked throughout August with U.S. Forest Service and California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection air tankers and ground crews. Their task: fighting some of northern California's lightning-caused fires, which first lit up the landscape Aug. 11.
The C-130s arrived Aug. 13 and immediately began flying. "I've been doing this for a long time," said Tech. Sgt. Bob Mitchell, a loadmaster with Peterson AFB's 371st Airlift Squadron. "Every fire you see is different." As one of the first loadmasters trained and certified by U.S. Forest Service fire-fighting specialists, Mitchell has been flying airdrop missions for 10 years.
"Sometimes when we make a drop, I can actually feel the heat [in the back of the aircraft's cargo bay] from the flames," Mitchell added. "It gets kind of wild when that happens."
"It's a double reward for the crew members," said Lt. Col. Clyde Doheney, a California Air National Guard C-130 pilot with the 146th Airlift Wing at Channel Islands. "Not only do we get to fight fires right here in our own state - our own backyard - but we get to help out the Forest Service and the ground firefighters as well."
The MAFFS system, a series of five pressurized tanks and two tubes installed in each aircraft, can hold 25,000 pounds (2,700 gallons) of fire retardant or water. When released from the tanks through the tubes, the resulting spray stream can cover an area approximately 100 feet wide and a quarter-mile long.
But before the C-130 can make a drop, its counterpart has to show the pilots where the retardant is needed.
Like some kind of aerial ballet, a lead plane flies over the fire area to show the C-130 exactly where to place the retardant. Then, flying only 100 to 150 feet above the flames, and sometimes lower, the C-130 releases the retardant.
"The lead plane orients us to the drop area," said Staff Sgt. Rob Beres, a loadmaster with the 731st Airlift Squadron. "Once we get a visual reference, we go in and drop."
Beres and Mitchell both flew aboard plane No. 5 -- affectionately labeled "Dumpy Old Men." Each of the four MAFFS airplanes has its own name. A giant, orange, single-digit number painted on the tail and fuselage makes identification easy and immediate during missions.
The retardant is just as easily identified.
In its wet and ready-to-drop form, retardant looks like tomato juice and feels like slime or mucous. The dry, concentrated retardant is delivered from the contractor in 2,000-pound bags. The chalk-like compound is mixed with water and pumped into a series of 24,000-gallon holding tanks. Underground hoses connect the tanks to a servicing area where ground crews pump the mixture into the airplanes when a mission is ordered.
From the staging area at Redding Municipal Airport, Reserve and Guard C-130 crews had flown 168 sorties and dropped 529,300 gallons of retardant on five major wildfires in California and Oregon by Aug. 24.
That same day, fresh, replacement C-130 crew members - -who arrived the day before -- flew missions against a new 200-acre fire at the Hoopa Indian Reservation in Humbolt County, about 120 miles west of Redding. The Air Force crews' efforts focused on the 82,980-acre Fork Fire, which was contained with the help of Army ground crews from Fort Carson, Colo.
"Most of the fires were started by dry lightning," said Harry Martin, a fire prevention specialist with the Sonoma Lake Napa Ranger Unit. "Dry lightning is a weather phenomenon that happens when thunderstorms fail to yield rain.
"California had an extremely busy fire season this year," Martin added. "By Aug. 23, we responded to more than 145,000 acres of wildfire, which exceeded the total acreage for last year. And at that point, we were just over halfway through the fire season."
With continuing help from Guard and Reserve crews and their specially equipped Hercules aircraft, California's forests won't suffer from burnout.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Return to contents]

[FLOJO]

heres what it looks like when the c 130 drops

[squirt'nmyload]

heres a little story about us
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
by Staff Sgt. David Bartlett
Portland, Ore.
photo by Master Sgt. Val Gempis
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Ready ... Ready ... DROP!"
On this intercom command, the co-pilot on the flight deck and the loadmaster in back push separate buttons sending 2,700 gallons of fire retardant shooting through two large tubes poking out the back of the C-130.
When the red retardant billows out of the aircraft and onto the flame-filled brush and trees below, the huge Hercules jerks in the air, noses up slightly, and turns back to base.
Chalk up another sortie in the air war against California's wildfires. Who are these aerial firefighters? Air Force Reserve and Air National Guard crews flying C-130s fitted with Modular Airborne Fire Fighting Systems.
Two C-130s from the 302nd Airlift Wing's 731st Airlift Squadron at Peterson AFB, Colo., and two from the California Air National Guard's 146th Airlift Wing at Channel Islands, worked throughout August with U.S. Forest Service and California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection air tankers and ground crews. Their task: fighting some of northern California's lightning-caused fires, which first lit up the landscape Aug. 11.
The C-130s arrived Aug. 13 and immediately began flying. "I've been doing this for a long time," said Tech. Sgt. Bob Mitchell, a loadmaster with Peterson AFB's 371st Airlift Squadron. "Every fire you see is different." As one of the first loadmasters trained and certified by U.S. Forest Service fire-fighting specialists, Mitchell has been flying airdrop missions for 10 years.
"Sometimes when we make a drop, I can actually feel the heat [in the back of the aircraft's cargo bay] from the flames," Mitchell added. "It gets kind of wild when that happens."
"It's a double reward for the crew members," said Lt. Col. Clyde Doheney, a California Air National Guard C-130 pilot with the 146th Airlift Wing at Channel Islands. "Not only do we get to fight fires right here in our own state - our own backyard - but we get to help out the Forest Service and the ground firefighters as well."
The MAFFS system, a series of five pressurized tanks and two tubes installed in each aircraft, can hold 25,000 pounds (2,700 gallons) of fire retardant or water. When released from the tanks through the tubes, the resulting spray stream can cover an area approximately 100 feet wide and a quarter-mile long.
But before the C-130 can make a drop, its counterpart has to show the pilots where the retardant is needed.
Like some kind of aerial ballet, a lead plane flies over the fire area to show the C-130 exactly where to place the retardant. Then, flying only 100 to 150 feet above the flames, and sometimes lower, the C-130 releases the retardant.
"The lead plane orients us to the drop area," said Staff Sgt. Rob Beres, a loadmaster with the 731st Airlift Squadron. "Once we get a visual reference, we go in and drop."
Beres and Mitchell both flew aboard plane No. 5 -- affectionately labeled "Dumpy Old Men." Each of the four MAFFS airplanes has its own name. A giant, orange, single-digit number painted on the tail and fuselage makes identification easy and immediate during missions.
The retardant is just as easily identified.
In its wet and ready-to-drop form, retardant looks like tomato juice and feels like slime or mucous. The dry, concentrated retardant is delivered from the contractor in 2,000-pound bags. The chalk-like compound is mixed with water and pumped into a series of 24,000-gallon holding tanks. Underground hoses connect the tanks to a servicing area where ground crews pump the mixture into the airplanes when a mission is ordered.
From the staging area at Redding Municipal Airport, Reserve and Guard C-130 crews had flown 168 sorties and dropped 529,300 gallons of retardant on five major wildfires in California and Oregon by Aug. 24.
That same day, fresh, replacement C-130 crew members - -who arrived the day before -- flew missions against a new 200-acre fire at the Hoopa Indian Reservation in Humbolt County, about 120 miles west of Redding. The Air Force crews' efforts focused on the 82,980-acre Fork Fire, which was contained with the help of Army ground crews from Fort Carson, Colo.
"Most of the fires were started by dry lightning," said Harry Martin, a fire prevention specialist with the Sonoma Lake Napa Ranger Unit. "Dry lightning is a weather phenomenon that happens when thunderstorms fail to yield rain.
"California had an extremely busy fire season this year," Martin added. "By Aug. 23, we responded to more than 145,000 acres of wildfire, which exceeded the total acreage for last year. And at that point, we were just over halfway through the fire season."
With continuing help from Guard and Reserve crews and their specially equipped Hercules aircraft, California's forests won't suffer from burnout.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Return to contents]
very interesting to read....i'm assuming the "jerk" just feels like some turbulance???? i'd need a barf bag!!!

[lawbreaker2]

:mad: It's all BULLSHIT.

[BajaMike]

Part of the problem is that the Forest Service aircraft are public use, maintained differently than aircraft maintained under FAA Regulations.
Plus all the political behind the scenes b.s., always about who is going to pay for what.
Huffpower is right. I used to provide spotter planes, transports, and air ambulances to the U.S. Forest Service and the Cal Div of Foresty. Both have their own certification process for both aircraft and pilots, and it takes a lot of work to get certified. They don't even look at the FAA certification (sort of like military pilots don't need to have FAA pilots licenses...but most do have them....they get them on their own).
I would think those large transport aircraft (DC-10 and 747) must jump through a lot of hoops to be certified.
And the private contractors don't want Reserve and Guard aircraft used because it sucks revenue from them....it's a tough compromise they have to come up with. But it's often and life and death matter, so I say, send in the military guys!!
:idea:

[Wake Havasu]

Anyone now anything about the Russian tankers?
http://www.tristesse.com/~keith/airshows/water1.jpg
http://il76.quickseek.com/
The Il-76 waterbomber is a VAP-2 1.5 hour install/removal tanking kit conversion. It has stirred a decade's controversy in the West at a time where more powerful firefighting assists are needed.
The Il-76 can carry 11,000 U.S. gallons (41,600 liters) of water; three times the capacity of the C-130 Hercules.
While the Australasian Fire Authorities Council says the Il-76 is a "very, very good firefighting aircraft", and while Canada awaits a U.S. decision, the matter hit U.S. local television in Denver in 2004, apparently calling for a public interest decision from Americans themselves.

[LUVNLIFE]

very interesting to read....i'm assuming the "jerk" just feels like some turbulance???? i'd need a barf bag!!!
I believe the jerk upward is from the sudden unloading of the 2700gallons of retardant. :cool:

[burtandnancy]

So while 5 firefighters get burned to death, untold millions of dollars worth of peoples homes and property are lost, we've got C130's, DC-10's and 747 parked while someone tries to figure out what paper work and permits should be handled. Thats the trouble with government that has grown too big, it no longer working...

[Not So Fast]

I agree with whats said here 100% but I thought they said the reason for so little air suport was because of the high winds that made it too dangerous in this particular fire? NSF

[dirty old man]

NSF, over here we see videos of a lot of choppers in the air, some dropping water and some taking pictures. Don't tell me a C-130 or DC-10 can't make a pass

[Beer-30]

All good info, but.....
They should just use the water out of Elsinore. Then, the hillsides would be green again after each drop. :boxed:

[Not So Fast]

NSF, over here we see videos of a lot of choppers in the air, some dropping water and some taking pictures. Don't tell me a C-130 or DC-10 can't make a pass
Yes I saw some dropping of water also but the report said that low level passes were too dangerous and that high altitude drops were sort of pointless because the water or retardant was disbursed to much by the high winds :confused: NSF

[Rexone]

So while 5 firefighters get burned to death, untold millions of dollars worth of peoples homes and property are lost, we've got C130's, DC-10's and 747 parked while someone tries to figure out what paper work and permits should be handled. Thats the trouble with government that has grown too big, it no longer working...
Typical beurocracy Burt. We have laws on immigration too that aren't enforced. And now funding for a multi million (likely way overpriced) fence that probably will never be built. You're right. Government it too big to react and too many in charge more interested in power and money and political positioning than getting things done for the people they were elected to represent and protect. At all levels, from Washington right down to the folks that control and direct these fire fighting assets that sit idle while shit burns to the ground and folks are injured and killed. If I was in charge every air asset available would have been dispatched at first light if it was safe to do so (wind permitting). And I can just about guarantee those same planes will sit idle when the wind subsides a little too. The whole governmental system is badly broken and bogged down with layers of people who aren't given the authority or incentive to make decisions and get things done.
We (the U.S. government) can spend a bizillion dollars a day overseas with grants and giveaways and foreign wars to countries who don't appreciate it or use it wisely but we can't spend $25K an hour to save our own shit from burning, take care of our poor and elderly, protect our own borders, make health care affordable to our lower income citizens (not illegals), on and on and on. Something's definately wrong with this picture. The richest country in the world can't fly high tech aircraft that are sitting on the ground to fight these fires because of the cost, which is a pea in the barrel of what the country spends and wastes on a daily basis. That my friends is focked up.

[wsuwrhr]

Rexie,
Thanks for pointing out the truth and ruining my day. I have voted ever since I was able and I haven't influenced a thing.
Government is too big, I am starting to believe there isn't a thing we can do about it except watch our great country crumble like the Romans.
Here is something I grabbed off Yahoo this week. Interesting read.
What is your take on it?
Brian
Yahoo article (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061026/ap_on_re_us/limiting_government)
We (the U.S. government) can spend a bizillion dollars a day overseas with grants and giveaways and foreign wars to conuntries who don't appreciate it or use it wisely but we can't spend $25K an hour to save our own shit from burning, take care of our poor and elderly, protect our own borders, make health care affordable to our lower income citizens (not illegals), on and on and on. Something's definately wrong with this picture. The richest country in the world can fly high tech aircraft that are sitting on the ground to fight these fires becasue of the cost, which is a pea in the barrel of what the country spends and wastes on a daily basis. That my friends is focked up.

[JustMVG]

Look at what the DC did during the Day fire, a 3/4 mile or longer and with few drops got the line quashed , 25000 anhour seem like a lot, but consider what houses cost today and what the land is worth, no brianer!!! govt. BS at your service,,and if your place burned up they'd give you a cot to sleep on and a mile long paper to fill out, now if it was Malibu or Palos Verde..... Why even go there. if 25k is too much imagine what the border control will cost .
It's all BS until some bueracrat oses his home in a fire , bet he'd scream for the DC the 47 or the russian tanker. We have the capability use the darn stuff and get this over with as fast as possible, maybe just maybe those three firfighters would'nt have lost thier lives. I hate politics when it comes down to stuff like this.

[wsuwrhr]

, no brianer!!! .
Yep

[dirty old man]

This is the same kind of government decision making that left a couple of hundred busses sitting still during Katrina. Vote out ALL incumbents from city mayors, to senators, to congressmen and so on

[dossangers]

http://www.evergreenaviation.com/supertanker/photo_pg/sim_03.jpg This Bad Boy !!http://www.evergreenaviation.com/supertanker/photo_pg/drop_05.jpg

[Moneypitt]

Alright, anyone live close enough to be in danger? And/or, anyone close enough to give real time updates as to where this fire is, and where its going........I heard Beaumont on the news and I know there are peeps here that live there or close to it.........Any news?.........MP

[Pheelin Phroggy]

If it gets to the point of mass evacs and anyone on here needs a bed or has a friend that does, we have an extra room in Hesperia, just pm us. Hope it does not get to that point but if it does..................

[Not So Fast]

http://www.evergreenaviation.com/supertanker/photo_pg/sim_03.jpg This Bad Boy !!http://www.evergreenaviation.com/supertanker/photo_pg/drop_05.jpg
Now thats some serious drops right there, how could that not have an effect on the fire?? We'll spend a gazzillion dollars in Iraq but when it comes to the home front "it costs too much" Frikken politicians :mad: NSF

[AZKC]

This is the same kind of government decision making that left a couple of hundred busses sitting still during Katrina. Vote out ALL incumbents from city mayors, to senators, to congressmen and so on
:) My thoughts exactly break up the Good Ole Boy Club :)

[burtandnancy]

Rexone, your comments and support are always appreciated. By the way, where did you get your spelling of "bureaucracy"? That is probably the most difficult word I've ever worked on...

[Rexone]

Rexone, your comments and support are always appreciated. By the way, where did you get your spelling of "bureaucracy"? That is probably the most difficult word I've ever worked on...
I was in a hurry Burt. :p Actually I had no idea how to spell it and just guessed. Kind of like the politicos do in spending the tax payers money.

[Pheelin Phroggy]

word is they finally got the DC 10 flying, and it is making quite a dent in the fire, as.. holes shoulda had it flying yesterday morning

[BajaMike]

http://www.evergreenaviation.com/supertanker/photo_pg/sim_03.jpg This Bad Boy !!http://www.evergreenaviation.com/supertanker/photo_pg/drop_05.jpg
I was told those things can actually lower the humidity significantly in the area .... Pretty cool aircraft.....:idea:

[burtandnancy]

phroggy, watching the news now, hope you are right...

[BajaMike]

The "super scooper".....
http://www.esa.int/images/7382697,1.jpg
:idea:

[lalhc]

THE DC-10 JUST DROPPED TARKENT ON THE ESPARANZA FIRE :crossx:

[lalhc]

I meant Tardent

[AZKC]

Maybe even retardant :)

[burtandnancy]

yea! DC-10 just made a drop, maybe one more before sunset. If they added the C-130's, they'd really knock this thing down...

[Debbolas]

OMG! They just showed the DC10 dropping on the fire (twice) on Channel 4.
I guess that newscaster Paul use to be a hotshot and had some stuff dropped on him, he said it hurt.
The plane (they said) was coming in "dirty, low and slow" :D

[rrrr]

Evergreen spent $40M of their own dough to develop the 747 tanker. I read this July article about it in Aviation Week & Space Technology.....
Helluva aircraft. The water is discharged by 165 PSI air pressure and produces 50,000 pounds of thrust. The pilot retards the throttles momentarily during the drop to maintain altitude..... :jawdrop:
Evergreen 747 Supertanker Promises to Alter Aerial Firefighting Tenets
By William B. Scott
07/30/2006 04:09:03 PM
AIR TANKERS GO BIG TIME
Turning from base to final approach, Boeing 747-200 captain/pilot Cliff Hale calls for full flaps and adjusts engine power to keep the aircraft on a controlled flight path, aimed at a San Bernardino, Calif., airport taxiway. First Officer Bob Roshak calls altitudes as the huge aircraft descends. Several hundred feet above the ground, Hale gently pulls the 747's nose up, leveling at about 180 ft., then holds a 3-4-deg. nose-up attitude and 150-kt. airspeed.
"Stand by . . . ," he calls. Behind and to Hale's right, Steve Goddard, the flight engineer, double-checks a small display and control panel, confirming its settings are correct.
A few seconds later, I hear a loud, extended "whoosh" behind me, signaling that Hale has punched a "pickle button" on his control yoke. He slowly pulls four throttles back, maintaining the 747's slight nose-up attitude as 20,500 gal. of water blast through four 12-in. ports on the aircraft's belly. Driven by eight tanks of air pressurized to 165 psi., the 10-sec. deluge drenches several hundred yards of the targeted taxiway. The intense manmade rainstorm terminates as we fly past a crowd gathered near the airport terminal.
Monitoring the flat-panel display, Goddard calls, "That's it." Hale pushes the throttles forward, calls for flaps up, starts a climb, then banks left to downwind. A few minutes later, we're on the ground, taxiing slowly toward that waiting crowd. With its San Bernardino water drop, Evergreen Aviation's 747 Supertanker completes a five-state demonstration tour aimed at introducing this new tool to the aerial firefighting community. And this Aviation Week & Space Technology editor is a step closer to fully understanding what a U.S. Forest Service (USFS) executive suggested: High-capacity, next-generation air tankers could radically alter the aerial firefighting business.
Armed with 10,000-20,000 gal. of water/fire retardant, these aircraft might be able to extinguish relatively small fires, protect valuable structures single-handedly, and even alter the humidity over a fire at night, forcing the blaze to "lay down," so ground crews can contain them sooner.
A few wide-body air transports have been modified as air tankers in recent years, but their operators have yet to sign long-term contracts in the U.S. A Russian Ilyushin Il-76 has seen service overseas, yet a variety of political factors, resistance among veteran firefighters and severe cost constraints have kept the approximately 11,000-gal. tanker offshore. Evergreen Aviation's new 20,500-gal. 747 Supertanker and "10 Tanker STC's" 12,000-gal. DC-10 Supertanker are angling to get on U.S. fire lines, hampered primarily by scant USFS budgets and lingering questions about the suitability of high-capacity firefighting tankers. But that may change during this fire season.
Evergreen is negotiating for a USFS demonstration contract, but has a number of FAA and USFS hurdles and procedures to clear first. As of last week, the company had not secured FAA-certification of its firefighting system, nor Interagency Air Tanker Board (IATB) approvals to fight fire.
The "10 Tanker STC" DC-10--a joint venture that includes Omni Air International--has its FAA Supplemental Type Certificate covering tanker-related modifications, and recently received IATB approval of its external, gravity-drop tank system. In mid-July, though, the DC-10 Supertanker dropped two loads of retardant on a fire under a "call-when-needed" contract issued by the State of California.
The DC-10 has not completed a USFS Supertanker Operational Assessment Project (SOAP), which could preclude getting a federal demonstration contract this year. The Evergreen 747 completed its SOAP flights last spring, erasing a number of critics' concerns about the feasibility of supertankers.
In 2003, I flew on several firefighting flights to gain an appreciation for the challenges and demands of this unique sector of aviation (AW&ST Nov. 3, 2003, p. 62). Many air tanker, lead plane, air attack and other professional aerial firefighters I met were highly skeptical of a 747- or DC-10-size aircraft being used as an air tanker. "Not maneuverable enough to get down in the canyons. That much water/fire retardant will wash ground firefighters and equipment off the mountain," they predicted.
But the Evergreen 747 SOAP evaluation earlier this year dispelled many of those preconceptions. "The entire SOAP team was surprised at how maneuverable the 747 was in the confines of a fire traffic area," says Pat Norbury, USFS national aviation operations officer. "We expected much larger [flight] patterns and less utility in rough terrain. But it was actually quite maneuverable. It had no problem working with the lead plane [a King Air 90] . . . and making drops." The team concluded that "the [Evergreen] 747 appears to be a very viable resource for fire retardant and water delivery," she says.
My flight on the 747 Supertanker, plus myriad discussions with its designers, pilots, program managers and maintenance personnel, underscored the SOAP conclusion: this aircraft has considerable potential as a firefighting tanker. From an engineering and operations standpoint, Evergreen clearly has developed the sort of next-generation, purpose-built tanker the USFS has needed for some time. But a lot of nagging questions about its ultimate value will be answered only by putting the 747 into service, fighting fires.
"The key is cost-benefit. What's the value [delivered]?" Norbury asks. "In a high-value structures-protection situation, having one [tanker] with 20,000 gal. overhead could have tremendous value. It's unlikely you'd ever have that much conventional tanker [capacity] overhead at one time." Still, high per-flight-hour costs will have to be justified by clear benefits.
Evergreen says one 747 Supertanker can be as effective as seven P-3A Orion air tankers, which have a 3,000-gal. capacity. But with only 18 P-3s and smaller-capacity P2V Neptune tankers available under USFS contract this year, it's unlikely that a ground-based incident commander will ever have more than two or three available. That may open the door for supertankers, if critical resources (homes and entire communities, for example) are threatened by wildfires--assuming the big aircraft meet forest service safety and operational requirements.
"There are a lot of federal criteria [the 747 and DC-10] have yet to satisfy," Norbury cautions. "Every air tanker has to meet them." Despite congressional pressure to get both into firefighting service soon, hands are tied by USFS operational standards and regulations "written in blood," one official says. Many of those procedures have roots in past accidents.
Evergreen has invested more than three years and $40 million to develop its 747 Supertanker, and is anxious to start generating revenue. A company-owned "convertible" (cargo or passenger) version of a 747-200 was taken off profitable cargo routes and modified by adding internal tanks and a pressurized delivery system. Key features include:
*Ten fluid tanks that, collectively, hold about 20,500 gal. of water or fire retardant. These are installed on the aircraft's main cargo deck, mounted on removable pallets. The interior of each tank is painted and fitted with a rotating, 13 gal./min. water nozzle to clean the vessel and prevent corrosion.
"We have more than $1 million in these tanks, so we're concerned about getting more than two [fire] seasons [from] them," says Christopher B. Harris, vice president of maintenance for Evergreen International Airlines. He and Hale, the primary 747 Supertanker pilot and vice president of operations for Evergreen Supertanker Services, conceived of the system and have shepherded it through design, development and testing. Another key player was Dan Kottman, a former Evergreen engineer. The entire effort has enjoyed strong support from Evergreen's chairman and founder, Delford M. Smith, as well.
*Eight air tanks bolted to the transport's floor on the aft cargo deck. These tanks provide air pressurized to 165 psi., which forces water/retardant from the 10 fluid tanks.
*Four 12-in. ports or nozzles on the 747's belly, running along the centerline. When delivering water/retardant at "full power," they produce 50,000 lb. of thrust.
*A $250,000 data acquisition system that captures air data, fuel quantity, GPS position and tank-related parameters. Structural data are collected by 141 strain gages and five accelerometers on the flap tracks, vertical and horizontal tail surfaces and other locations. That system and the supertanker engineering design and FAA certification work were handled by South West Aero Group.
The 747 Supertanker is based on a self-contained concept-of-operation. "There was a lot of concern in the firefighting community about how they'd service this [huge tanker]," explains Harris. "So, we designed it as a turnkey operation. Just give us a fire hydrant, a forklift and a place to put a ground [water tank] bladder, and we're ready to go." Spare parts, ladders, hoses, maintenance personnel, and full galley are carried or installed on the aircraft. The tanker can operate from "any airport that has [sufficient] ramp space and an 8,000-ft. runway," Harris adds.
A large swimming pool-like bladder tank is assembled on the ramp and filled from a fire hydrant. Water or fire retardant is pumped from there into the 747's fluid tanks using an onboard hose-and-reel system.
The aircraft operates about 200,000 lb. under maximum gross weight, which gives it a substantial performance margin during firefighting ops. "We plan to drop at 400 ft. [altitude], but that depends on wind-drift. We can go down to 200 ft., terrain permitting," Hale says. "Drop speed will be 140-150 kt. Even in steep terrain, we can go to max-power, flaps 20 [deg.] and climb out, straight ahead. We use the same procedures as a missed approach. Even though we like a longer run-in, we don't need as much room on the other end [as today's prop-driven tankers]. In total space used, it's about the same."
The biggest challenge, Hale says, "is airspeed control--or, really, mass control. You don't want to let a heavy jet get slow, and it takes experience to know when it is."
Because the 747 delivers water/retardant under pressure, literally blowing fluid straight down, it can fly at higher, safer altitudes than tankers relying on gravity-drop systems. Still, piloting finesse is necessary to ensure a uniform pattern of water/retardant on the ground.
"We try to hold the deck angle at roughly 3 deg. nose-up," Hale says. "As the weight is reduced [during a 20,500-gal. delivery], the airplane wants to climb about 100 ft. So, we come back on the power about 20% and maintain a positive pitch angle. It's very much seat-of-the-pants flying at that point."
"This [tanker] could change the aerial firefighting paradigm," concludes Nels Jensen, a retired USFS pilot serving as an operations consultant to Evergreen. "In multiple-fire situations, where you need load after load [of retardant], it could change outcomes."

[burtandnancy]

What a great description. Thanks...

[Rexone]

word is they finally got the DC 10 flying, and it is making quite a dent in the fire, as.. holes shoulda had it flying yesterday morning
Good job Burt. Looks like the fire guys read ***boat. :)

[Pheelin Phroggy]

We just pray this fire lays down for them tonight, and they get the DC 10 on it at day break.

[AZKC]

Go Evergreen :) They do some crazy stuff out there :crossx:

[3 daytona`s]

...he asked retorically, knowing full well that our state and fed politicos are keeping the DC-10 and 747 tankers from being used on our recent forest fires. Now we've got 4 dead firefighters that may have been prevented by someone merely signing the right documents.
One of the talking heads says it was because of the winds. BS, the news choppers are all over the place. These tankers are well proven they can be a great aid in these kind of fires...
You may remember when earlier this year all the fires across Arizona? Fires everywhere then the fire starts near Sedona and gets worse and worse.The next thing they pull complete crews off fires from around the state and ship to there.My neighbor who used to be an Az. State Senator,said there are many politicians and wealthy people who contribute to politicans campaigns. How nice is that my house may burn,down to bad but we`ll save the fat ass rich bastards.He guaranteed me that`s what happened. :crossx:

[lalhc]

It looks like the fire is laying down tonight. I could not see any glowing areas from Hwy 18 up in Lake Arrowhead.

[Rexone]

Thermal image site to fire perimeter map (http://geomac.usgs.gov/#)
To put in perspective, the Esperanza fire burned roughly 40000 acres in around 36 hours.
The Day fire which burned for a month burned 150000 acres or 5000 a day average although it did have heavy days at the end, it was also pretty large when that transpired, driven again by Santa Ana winds.
Wind is not the firefighters friend. I hope they catch the shit head that set this. RIP firefighters. :(