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View Full Version : Dammit. Any OSHA experience on here?



Mandelon
12-12-2006, 07:51 PM
One of our imported guys took a header making a mis-step off a ladder today. 8 foot drop onto his head. Knocked out for 10 minutes. He got an ambulance ride to the ER. MRI, they'll be keeping him overnight for observation. He's awake but pretty out of it.
Workers' Comp and OSHA were both notified as per the rules. They say if he's not kept over 24 hours no big deal, but more than that they open an investigation.....
Any ideas what they might be like? :confused:
Thanks.
Jose has a hard head, so I think he'll be fine....:hammerhea He's been with us a couple of years. He's a really nice guy, good attitude, just not the sharpest crayon in the box....

lewiville
12-12-2006, 07:56 PM
just in case..... i would say attorney

phebus
12-12-2006, 08:06 PM
If you were working within OSHA guidelines, I wouldn't worry.

YeLLowBoaT
12-12-2006, 08:10 PM
Well its kind of like when you get pulled over... they are going to check DL, reg and INS. they are also going to talk to him and any one that might have seen it happen. I was on the flip side of the coin... working for a crew that did fire work 2 of us had a whole sheet of soaking wet dry wall on us. knocked us both out cold.

rrrr
12-12-2006, 08:14 PM
They'll be asking for your printed safety plan, records of safety meetings, inspection of equipment, etc. You also have to have certain notices posted, blah blah blah. Paperwork!!
I don't have the info here at home, but anytime a worker is on a ladder over a certain height fall protection is required, a safety belt and a fall lanyard.
I bought an OSHA manual that is put together specifically for the construction trades by these guys:
http://www.aspenpublishers.com/
Look on their site for "OSHA Guide for the Construction Industry". It makes all that stuff easier. Not gonna help you tomorrow, but I would get one pronto.
edit: Just looking at the website, there are specific manuals for California.....you lucky guys.

Mandelon
12-12-2006, 08:18 PM
We have the OSHA safety manual, custom made for us, but not so much records of safety meetings. Most of our work is ground level, we have harnesses, but they didn't take them today. It was some basic termite work from I understood. I haven't been to the project so I just don't know.
I hear they can fine you for little shit, so I just wondered if they plan on poking around our office/shop or just the jobsite?

rrrr
12-12-2006, 08:23 PM
You don't have to allow them access to your shop.....at least in Texas. We can make 'em give proper notice and come back later. Just depends on Cali law I guess. Good luck....

MOBrien
12-12-2006, 08:26 PM
funny you had this thread up. I just happened to be in Cal/OSHA training all day today and we talked a lot about accidents like this. Disclaimer-this is not to be taken as advice, just passing discussion. OK.
Just make sure your IIPP/Code of Safe Practices is in order, that your training documentation is available with his acknowledgement/signature, and that the equipment was in proper working condition/safe environment. The EMT/hospital that picked him up/received him are required to notify OSHA as well or they get fined. So if you did too, you're definitely good with the reporting end. If an investigation does take place, which from what I am told will be at their discretion, just make sure you have your paperwork & story straight and you shouldn't have anything to worry about....except getting your guy back on the job soon.
Good luck.

MOBrien
12-12-2006, 08:33 PM
I hear they can fine you for little shit, so I just wondered if they plan on poking around our office/shop or just the jobsite?
they definitely can and will fine you pretty easily if they feel something is amiss. Something like a minimum of $18K to a maximum of $25K? And can poke around your office or site whenever they want to. Might need a warrant to retrieve docs though? dunno.
my understanding is that Cal/OSHA vs. the rest of the country OSHA....different game. If you hold any responsibility/accountability for this person's safety on the jobsite via supervision, training, etc.........I'd visit that site tomorrow to verify things were right if I were you. OSHA is not one to eff with. Especially those that are on a big power trip because they know they can make life very tough on you.
Again, good luck with it.

Daytona100
12-12-2006, 08:35 PM
Just wondering is he a legal worker green card etc?

Mandelon
12-12-2006, 08:35 PM
That makes me feel better.
He's a really nice guy, so I sure hope he heals quick.
I wonder how the event will ding my Workers' comp multiplier. We haven't had any issues in a long time. Only three events in 12 years, and one of those was the office manager who dropped a bottle of water on her own foot. :hammerhea the first one my guy took advantage and got payments for a "disability" for like three years. He used the extra money to start his own business and buy a harley too.....:mad:

tcook33
12-12-2006, 08:42 PM
I had a guy put a nail through his knee at a job. He was in the hospital for over 24 hours so I had to call OSHA. I called, made the report, and they showed up to the job a few days later and handed out about $6k in fines. It would have been more, but the super on the job had some experience with OSHA.
Ironically, none of my guys had violations because we were prepared for it. But other trades on the job were hit pretty hard. They were warned though, so I didn't feel too bad. The plasterer had the most in fines due to his scaffold.
However, they also did an internal investigation at our office. They requested obscene amounts of paperwork (some of which I had, most of which I didn't). I was eventually fined around $5K. I appealed and won. Didn't have to pay a dime.
My mod rate was greatly affected because insurance had to pay a sh*tload to this guy. He had multiple surgeries and went through about 6 months of rehab. He was a good employee....never came back to work. It was the only claim in the past 8 years.
Good Luck!

TCHB
12-12-2006, 08:45 PM
You did the right thing by the notification.
1. Document the fall
2. Training records (organize and make sure your safety manuel is up to date.
3. Do not hide anything
I would think they will call back for a update on his condition and that will be it.

YeLLowBoaT
12-12-2006, 08:45 PM
The plasterer had the most in fines due to his scaffold.
I don't think I have ever seen a plaster's scaffold pass a osha inspection...

Baja Big Dog
12-12-2006, 09:51 PM
Had a guy fall 8 feet two years ago, broke his arm, banged his head, had surgury, OSHA wont be a problem unless the ladder was part of production, in which case you may be screwed, shouldnt have a temp item as a ladder in production, my guy was changing a light, OSHA didnt get involved, worker comp did and get ready for a real ass fukking. Remember these are the people you have paid an enormus amount of money to, mine ran 90 to 125K a year, no claims and took it in the ass.
Start kissing the guys ass right now, go see him even if you dont care, do anything to keep him from calling the leach, blood sucking, low life lawyers that are probobly waiting outside his hospital room as we read this. Your workers comp "friends" will go out of there way to take care of this employee, which is good. Be prepared for a slight increase in your payments!!!
Good luck!!

ssmike
12-12-2006, 10:26 PM
Start kissing the guys ass right now, go see him even if you dont care, do anything to keep him from calling the leach, blood sucking, low life lawyers that are probobly waiting outside his hospital room as we read this. Your workers comp "friends" will go out of there way to take care of this employee, which is good. Be prepared for a slight increase in your payments!!!
Good luck!!
The injured worker CANNOT sue his own employer. Not Mandelon's potential issue.

YeLLowBoaT
12-12-2006, 10:29 PM
The injured worker CANNOT sue his own employer. Not Mandelon's potential issue.
thats not true.

38687
12-12-2006, 11:20 PM
Just make sure he gets out in 23 hrs. No prob.

Mrs. Bordsmnj
12-13-2006, 07:44 AM
OSHA can and probably will come inspect your office too. Make sure everything is in order because the fines add up quick. Make sure your fire extinguishers are up to date, no overloaded outlets, even make sure your paper cutter is closed and has a safety latch. Make sure exits are clear, bookcases are secured to wall, current labor law posters....etc.
We have quarterly safety training and inspections so we are prepared if OSHA rolls in.
I could refer our safety inspector/training guy to you. He might be able to come out and point out your violations before OSHA does. Let me know.

Mandelon
12-13-2006, 08:01 AM
Just wondering is he a legal worker green card etc?
Yes, he has the right paperwork. We don't hire frescos.

Havasu Luvr
12-13-2006, 08:19 AM
and dont forget the MSDS's and readily available

Trailer Park Casanova
12-13-2006, 08:51 AM
Been through it lots of times.
All the above, and don't take any pix or videos.
Offers up too much drama that will go against you if push come to shove.
Believe me,, I've seen it.
Just my 2 cents from past experiences.
You'll be OK.
It's the worker comp $$ that can be hassle.
If it was something like a forklift off the loading dock and loss of limbs then they (osha) get serious.

jbtrailerjim
12-13-2006, 08:52 AM
Mandelon,
Do yourself a favor and get this guy back to work as soon as he is able, even if it is light duty. The longer some people sit home and go without a paycheck, the more they get idea's in there head about getting a lawyer and suing. Trust me I've been through this more than once. You shouldn't take too big a hit on your mod rate since you say you haven't had any incidents in a while.
Good luck.

Bow Tie Omega
12-13-2006, 09:37 AM
All of the above is good advice, except for not letting them into your office. The LAST thing you want to do is piss off a federal agency. We had a guy at my company who had a similar fall from a ladder. He broke his right wrist, right scapula ,3 ribs on the right side and had a loss of consciousness for about 3 minutes. He recieved a helicopter ride to a major trauma center. This was an older company guy, he really could have put the screws to the company and did not.
An loc of 10 minutes is a guarenteed 24 hour observation and treated as a serious head injury medically speaking. As far as Osha, check for all PPE, hard hats were worn, safety glasses, etc. Have a record of all safety meetings, They like to see one at least once a week, documented, with signatures of all people attended with a time of atleast 15 minutes, although this is not documented. Check all of your ladders for those rubber feet and if they do not have them, buy them or get rid of the ladders without them. Let OSHA know you took advantage of the unfortunate accident by having a safety stand down and talked about safety and the specific accident with other company employees. Ask the other employees about ideas for what could have prevented the accident and address any of their concerns. Document document document. Not only the special meeting, but what was discussed, the amount of time that the meeting took, at least an hour would look good. DOcument their suggestions and have a game plan on what you are going to do to prevent the accident from happening again.
There are two pieces to this as far as they are concerned, one being the fact that it happened. Second is how serious you are about keeping it from happening again. One other thing, was the ladder tied off? If not, make sure that becomes policy. And check into fall protection requirements (harnesses) for your area. Some areas require harnesses for heigths > 36". It seems ridiculous, but I have seen some people survive 2 and 3 story falls, as well as others dying from falls of as little as 4 feet (skull fractures). I hope this helps and good luck

riverroyal
12-13-2006, 05:40 PM
One of our imported guys took a header making a mis-step off a ladder today. 8 foot drop onto his head. Knocked out for 10 minutes. He got an ambulance ride to the ER. MRI, they'll be keeping him overnight for observation. He's awake but pretty out of it.
Workers' Comp and OSHA were both notified as per the rules. They say if he's not kept over 24 hours no big deal, but more than that they open an investigation.....
Any ideas what they might be like? :confused:
Thanks.
Jose has a hard head, so I think he'll be fine....:hammerhea He's been with us a couple of years. He's a really nice guy, good attitude, just not the sharpest crayon in the box....
what size ladder??At 8 feet fall protection is required in cal.I have a osha book at my job,I can look if you like in the morning.Ive had meeting with osha,they arent that bad.99% chance they wont come out

Red Horse
12-13-2006, 06:20 PM
With safety it is always what have you done to prevent or educate, and after incident actions. Do you have safety meetings, documented safety meetings? Does your equipment have all the guards and safety items in place? PPE available and worn? First aid kits there on site, taken appropriate actions, i.e. take injured to hospital, ambulance called, first aid given, adequate time off?
All OSHA is there to do is protect the worker and eliminate the contractor/boss/company that is willing to put people in harms way without proper equipment. If you are a fair boss, run a legitimate biz, you should be OK.
All my shops have mandatory safety briefings once a week, plus I have spent the money to have a first aid kit in every truck, proper PPE etc. I have had a run of incidents. Finger cut on the table saw, finger in the router, 3 stitches in the head from a grader door. ER doc got to know us pretty well. Not a problem on any of them. :)

Mandelon
12-13-2006, 08:06 PM
In the past we have provided first aid kits, extinguishers and box of safety gear for all guys, with instructions to use company money to replenish as needed.....but it doesn't happen.
I am on them all the time about goggles, dustmasks, etc. :hammerhea We haven't documented the meetings very well, but we do chat about safety as one of the topics on monday morning meetings.
I went the the hospital today to check on him. He was talking and laughing, but still in SICU....they were giving him a second CAT scan and would be moving him down to less critical care area this afternoon. Probably keep him for a couple of days for observation they said. Worker's Comp is paying so they will get paid.....better than the illegals they have to deal with I am sure.
I told him he'd we cover his full pay during his layup there, and that we'd make up the difference on his checks for the disability ins for the couple of weeks he will probably be out. :sleeping:
Apparently his wallet and ID are missing though.....somewhere between EMT and getting to his spot upstairs....I sure hope they have it somewhere. That would sure suck.
Thanks for all the advice.
RB

Rackman
12-14-2006, 07:38 AM
We have the OSHA safety manual, custom made for us, but not so much records of safety meetings. Most of our work is ground level, we have harnesses, but they didn't take them today. It was some basic termite work from I understood. I haven't been to the project so I just don't know.
I hear they can fine you for little shit, so I just wondered if they plan on poking around our office/shop or just the jobsite?
All good advice. Heres my .02
The most common OSHA citation is lack of a complete IIPP. They will also ask for training documentation, and the "Hazard Assessment Survey" for your shop, which basically lists the various areas or machines and the safety equipment required for that particular area.
Should you get cited, you have the right to request an "informal conference" and contest the fines. It is not an admission of any guilt, and the fines can never go higher. 90% of the time you will be offered a "settlement" at a much lower amount than the original fine. You can also request to have the cost of compliance deducted from the fine. Any settlement agreement should also provide that none of the allegations in the citation can be used against you in future civil litigation.
Good luck!

ssmike
12-14-2006, 09:32 AM
Originally Posted by ssmike
The injured worker CANNOT sue his own employer. Not Mandelon's potential issue.
thats not true.
Ummm, yeah it is. Lets do a show of hands to to see who's a lawyer...........:hammerhea :hammerhea

YeLLowBoaT
12-14-2006, 11:28 AM
If every thing was there that should have been, your right he can not sue... but if not... you bet your ass they can sue you.

ssmike
12-14-2006, 11:58 AM
you missed my point. i was being facetious. i am a lawyer.

Ultra5150
12-14-2006, 12:56 PM
All good advice. Heres my .02
The most common OSHA citation is lack of a complete IIPP. They will also ask for training documentation, and the "Hazard Assessment Survey" for your shop, which basically lists the various areas or machines and the safety equipment required for that particular area.
Should you get cited, you have the right to request an "informal conference" and contest the fines. It is not an admission of any guilt, and the fines can never go higher. 90% of the time you will be offered a "settlement" at a much lower amount than the original fine. You can also request to have the cost of compliance deducted from the fine. Any settlement agreement should also provide that none of the allegations in the citation can be used against you in future civil litigation.
Good luck!
Excellent advice. You most certainly will get dinged on not having documented safety training with signature logs. You can talk about saftey and tell them they must wear saftey equiptment and follow safety procedures everyday but - To OSHA talking about safety doesnt matter squat unless you have a signature to go along with it. This is super important.
Make sure you appeal any fine, there is no way in hell you will get away with not paying something, but you can reduce it. Whatever you do - Do not fight with OSHA.
Good luck, please let us know how it turned out.

Mandelon
12-14-2006, 08:04 PM
Jose will be released from the Hospital tomorrow. He'll be on disability for a couple weeks I am sure.
So far Workers comp called back and asked if we would be contesting the claim.....uh no, we filed it FOR him.... :hammerhea
OSHA has not called back yet..:sleeping:
We had a nice long meeting and briefing session this morning with all the guys. Discussed what happened and how to prevent it. Told them all not to lie when questioned if they get interviewed. We did take the opportunity to better our safety procedures, and clean up a few items around the shop that seemed iffy. We even mounted the fire extinguishers.