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Ike
12-19-2006, 07:47 PM
Here we go! now the battle starts! The Commandant of the Coast Guard has come out in favor of licensing. This is a 180 deg reverse of long standing CG policy. Here's the article at Stateline.org
http://www.stateline.org/live/detail...ntentId=165344
I have put a poll on my forum http://www.123forum.com/558
Let's hear what you think.

Mandelon
12-19-2006, 07:50 PM
As a rule I am against any more meddling of the government within my (our) affairs. A little bit of regulation has a habit of becoming a lot of regulation. The anti smoking crowd has mastered the art of getting just a little bit of what they want year after year and before you know it more rights are gone.
BUT.....there are so many asswipes on the water that licensing might help to eliminate that problem. It might. But I would imagine that the gov will just use this as an excuse to get us off the water, or as another way to tax us for nothing in return.

Ike
12-19-2006, 07:55 PM
Is licensing any different than mandatory education and requiring everyone to have a certificate from a boating course? Here in Washington we are all going to have to pass a test anyway. How is this different?

Mandelon
12-19-2006, 07:58 PM
Don't know yet, we don't have any out here in California. Any idiot with a credit card can rent a 60 mph Seadoo and go out and tear across the water with zero instruction.

wsuwrhr
12-19-2006, 08:00 PM
Yea it's a great idea.
Just like having driver's licenses keeps all the retards off the road.
That'll work.

Lightning
12-19-2006, 08:12 PM
As a rule I am against any more meddling of the government within my (our) affairs. A little bit of regulation has a habit of becoming a lot of regulation. The anti smoking crowd has mastered the art of getting just a little bit of what they want year after year and before you know it more rights are gone.
BUT.....there are so many asswipes on the water that licensing might help to eliminate that problem. It might. But I would imagine that the gov will just use this as an excuse to get us off the water, or as another way to tax us for nothing in return.
I agree with you...I'm not for any more regulation. BUT in the case of boating I think that it's a good thing. Maybe proof of passing a boaters safety course before you can register your boat? But then again, what the difference, we need to get a license to ride a motorcycle...just tack it on at the DMV. Maybe my insurance rates will go down and the water will become less crowded.

Wheeler
12-19-2006, 08:26 PM
I agree with you...I'm not for any more regulation. BUT in the case of boating I think that it's a good thing. Maybe proof of passing a boaters safety course before you can register your boat? But then again, what the difference, we need to get a license to ride a motorcycle...just tack it on at the DMV. Maybe my insurance rates will go down and the water will become less crowded.
Maybe, you will be voting for the, "Hillderbeast"
and maybe, we do not need our gun's, any longer..........

wsuwrhr
12-19-2006, 08:28 PM
Maybe, you will be voting for the, "Hillderbeast"
and maybe, we do not need our gun's, any longer..........
You mean any more than we don't need them now?

Nucking futs
12-19-2006, 08:31 PM
Just go down and take a Coast guard boaters safety coarse and you won't have to worry about anything. That is untill the "MAN" figures out a way to rob more of our money.

wsuwrhr
12-19-2006, 08:32 PM
Here is a good law.
10 day wait for firearms purchases.
Hell after someone owns 3 or 4 or 5 or 6, how is a 10 day wait going to save anyone?
Since when to criminals obey laws?
Brian

a catered life
12-19-2006, 08:40 PM
Don't know yet, we don't have any out here in California. Any idiot with a credit card can rent a 60 mph Seadoo and go out and tear across the water with zero instruction.
i always find this amazing you have to take a test and get licensed to drive something with brakes (car), you need to be 18 to buy cigs but any asshole can have a baby and raise a family with no instructions and any asshole with a credit card or tax return can buy and pilot a boat or jet ski and they dont even have brakes:sqeyes:

YeLLowBoaT
12-19-2006, 08:44 PM
I really don't think having a license will change much, but i would like to see every one have INS...

Wheeler
12-19-2006, 09:01 PM
I really don't think having a license will change much, but i would like to see every one have INS...
Insurance, is not required on general aviation planes.

HavasuSelect
12-19-2006, 09:10 PM
If liscenses are required it will hurt a lot of businesses (i.e. boat rentals, boat sales). I'm not opposed to liscensing but there are obvious pros and cons. It's just the other side of the spectrum.

DMOORE
12-19-2006, 09:27 PM
Just one more way for the government to raise revenue. Pure and simple. There will be a cost for the test, cost for the liscense, cost of renewal ect.ect.ect. Never ends.
The good news is we will all be sooooo safe on the water. Just imagine if it was as safe as the 5 or 405 freeway. Gee, won't that be wonderful.
Darrell.

YeLLowBoaT
12-19-2006, 09:30 PM
Insurance, is not required on general aviation planes.
no, but if you don't have it your a fool...beside becoming a pilot is already highly regulated, it already has a program in place to weed out the idoits... does not work 100%, but its still beter then DL and and boating.
come to think of it... if you have any type of money or assets and you don't have INS your a fool...your litterly a "bad day" away from losing every thing.

Boatcop
12-20-2006, 06:37 AM
Licensing or Certification would be up to the individual States. While the Coast Guard can make recommendations, they are not ready to come up with a National Federal Boat license.
Already 44 states have some form of licensing or certification in place. Arizona is talking about Mandatory Education, although I don't see it happening for at least 2-3 years.
Our classes are free, and most others in AZ have a nominal fee, usually $5 bucks per person or $10 for a family. We are staunchly opposed to a formal license and having the Motor Vehicle Dept. involved in any way.
You are already paying for classes through boat registration fees, which are funded through those fees and other marine taxes through Aquatic Resources (Wallop-Breaux) Trust fund money.
Considering that nearly 90% of boaters involved in acccidents have never had any formal boating education, licensing or certification would go a long way in reducing accidents and collisions.
Now is the time to plan on taking a class while seats are readily available. Once mandatory education is in place, you may have trouble finding space in a class.
Here's a list of Classes scehduled in AZ for the upcoming year:
http://www.azgfd.gov/i_e/edits/boating_education.shtml

Havasu_Dreamin
12-20-2006, 07:21 AM
Arizona is talking about Mandatory Education, although I don't see it happening for at least 2-3 years.
Here's a list of Classes scehduled in AZ for the upcoming year:
http://www.azgfd.gov/i_e/edits/boating_education.shtml
If AZ does adopt this, which I'm fine with, do you think we would need to take a class each year, just once, every 2 years or.....

Boatcop
12-20-2006, 07:26 AM
If AZ does adopt this, which I'm fine with, do you think we would need to take a class each year, just once, every 2 years or.....
Classes/Certification are good for life. You only have to take it once.
Every State's classes are standardized, so taking an approved course in one State satisfies the education requirements in other States.

Havasu_Dreamin
12-20-2006, 07:28 AM
Classes/Certification are good for life. You only have to take it once.
Every State's classes are standardized, so taking an approved course in one State satisfies the education requirements in other States.
Sounds good to me. Hopefully they will enforce on the people that rent boats and PWC's as well. Must present proof of passing a class in order to rent the vessel.....

voodoomedman
12-20-2006, 07:47 AM
Classes/Certification are good for life. You only have to take it once.
Every State's classes are standardized, so taking an approved course in one State satisfies the education requirements in other States.
If Az requires it but Cali doesn't then what would the deal be on the river lakes? Only get in trouble from Az like the other laws or??????????
Also would an online course like say www.boatsafe.com work?

Quality Time
12-20-2006, 07:49 AM
Classes/Certification are good for life. You only have to take it once.
Every State's classes are standardized, so taking an approved course in one State satisfies the education requirements in other States.
How does the AZ course compare to the Power Squadron Course?

Havasu_Dreamin
12-20-2006, 08:06 AM
If Az requires it but Cali doesn't then what would the deal be on the river lakes? Only get in trouble from Az like the other laws or??????????
Unless I am mistaken, and BC please correct me if I am, while boating on Lake Havasu you must be in compliance with both AZ and CA boating safety laws. This is done to prevent any "well, I was on the CA side of the lake and you're an AZ officer so you have no jurisdiction" confusion.

Seadog
12-20-2006, 08:32 AM
I have changed from no license, to believing that licenses are a necessary evil. Nothing is perfect, but anything that prevents the great unwashed from renting a PWC with no training, is a help. Aviation is one of the most regulated and monitored fields. Yet, last weekend, a pilot crashed into Grand Lake, killing his three passengers. He did not have a license and was OUI. So not everything is perfect, but it does not mean we cannot do better.
Most driver's licenses cost a lot less than a tank of fuel for boats, so I am not going to get bent about that. As for the boat rental facilities, it may be a wash. Some will go out of business, others will see their insurance rates drop.

voodoomedman
12-20-2006, 08:44 AM
Unless I am mistaken, and BC please correct me if I am, while boating on Lake Havasu you must be in compliance with both AZ and CA boating safety laws. This is done to prevent any "well, I was on the CA side of the lake and you're an AZ officer so you have no jurisdiction" confusion.
Your right I was just wondering if they would treat that one a little differently or not. I also want to know if any online courses are certified.
There are goods and bads to licensing. Mandatory education would be good if it didn't open up Pandora's box to a myriad of other laws. If people would quit being idiots then we wouldn't need the rules. But I do want my family safe. It will also be nice to not have people mad at me for not letting them drive my boat. I can simply state it is against the law because you haven't taken a safety course.

Froggystyle
12-20-2006, 09:40 AM
I hate to say it but I am absolutely in support of a license. 100% You may say that drivers licenses don't keep idiots off the road, but I assure you it has kept some off. With a license, there is repercussion for your actions. There is accountability and there is training. More importantly, our waterways have become more and more dangerous every year, and I have seen the vast majority of truly unsafe boating performed by rentals or underage drivers. Both will be all but eliminated by a license program.
So some boat renters will go under. I am fine with that. They are the assholes renting watercraft to people with no training, responsibility or accountability.
You won't lose any more new boat sales than you lose new car sales.

Zaairman
12-20-2006, 09:44 AM
In Missouri, every boat operator who was born after some special date in the 1980s must have a special boat license to operate ANY watercraft. You take the test online, and it's a joke. You can look up the answers to the test as you take it... :jawdrop:

acatitude
12-20-2006, 09:48 AM
zaairman, hows the damage recovery coming at LOTO??

Racey
12-20-2006, 09:49 AM
BUT.....there are so many asswipes on the water that licensing might help to eliminate that problem. It might. But I would imagine that the gov will just use this as an excuse to get us off the water, or as another way to tax us for nothing in return.
Liscensing drivers hasn't eliminated any asswipes off the road, it's just another way for them to gain more controll over you, collect more taxes, get more cops enforcing noise to in turn check for drinking, so you can pay more fines etc etc....

spectras only
12-20-2006, 09:52 AM
seen the vast majority of truly unsafe boating performed by rentals or underage drivers. Both will be all but eliminated by a license program.
So some boat renters will go under. I am fine with that. They are the assholes renting watercraft to people with no training, responsibility or accountability.
Ditto

Ike
12-20-2006, 10:00 AM
Most state are going with on-line testing. The jury is still out on how effective that is.
I find the response very interesting. I posted this same question on another forum, the Woodenboat Forum. I expected the hot boaters would be against it and the wooden boaters would be for it, but the results are opposite. You guys seem to be mostly for it and the wooden boaters are pretty much violently opposed to it. Anyway I also posted this on the BoatUS forum but haven't gotten any responses yet. Maybe they just don't care?
Boatcop is right. The states, through the National Association of State Boating Law Administrators, NASBLA, http://www.nasbla.org/ and the Coast Guard, have developed standards for testing, so that if you take the test in any state it should be honored in any other state. However if you go to licensing then it will probably be like driver licensing. If you move to another state you'll most likely have to get a new license in that state.
Anyway, the strange thing is I sent an e-mail to my friends in the Coast Guard Office of Boating Safety and their reply was, Huh? Where did you hear that? Sounds like a case of the Commandant speaking off the cuff, and the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

bocco
12-20-2006, 10:05 AM
I have to say I'm in favor of licensing also. It will be a pain in the ass but it will keep some of the idiots off of the water. If it kills the boat rental bussiness. So be it. I watch to many people at Lake Don Pedro run right through the marina up on plane on rented jetskis with no clue.

Zaairman
12-20-2006, 10:14 AM
zaairman, hows the damage recovery coming at LOTO??
No idea...haven't been down there nor have I had a chance to talk to our neighbors who have a house and dock down there. But, I did see MANY pictures of the damage. Makes me glad my boat isn't in the water...

eliminatedsprinter
12-20-2006, 10:19 AM
The last I heard, the bill that is under consideration here in Ca would require us to take the Ca Dept of Waterways boating saftey class/test. I have done it and have my certificate. It is a nice easy review of the basics. I wouldn't mind if everyone had to take it to pilot a boat. However, if the DMV is involved, it will surely get screwed up and become a useless pain in the ass.

Froggystyle
12-20-2006, 11:03 AM
Liscensing drivers hasn't eliminated any asswipes off the road, it's just another way for them to gain more controll over you, collect more taxes, get more cops enforcing noise to in turn check for drinking, so you can pay more fines etc etc....
Have you ever driven a car in a society that doesn't have automotive licensing?
That is a ridiculous statement. Can you imagine the sheer number of 12 year olds on the road if you could drive a car unlicensed? I would have. "Just to the store..."

No Name
12-20-2006, 11:33 AM
Here is a good law.
10 day wait for firearms purchases.
I think that’s a great law, it gives you a little more time to plan your crime.:D :D

dumbandyoung
12-20-2006, 12:09 PM
Yea it's a great idea.
Just like having driver's licenses keeps all the retards off the road.
That'll work.
WTF!?! drivers licenses dont keep idiots off the road

wsuwrhr
12-20-2006, 12:12 PM
WTF!?! drivers licenses dont keep idiots off the road
Exactly.
I'll repeat.
Driver's license's don't keep idiots off the road.

wsuwrhr
12-20-2006, 12:13 PM
I think that’s a great law, it gives you a little more time to plan your crime.:D :D
Laughs. basically.
When you already own 10 other guns, what is ten days going to do anyway?
Brian

dumbandyoung
12-20-2006, 12:18 PM
I hate to say it but I am absolutely in support of a license. 100% You may say that drivers licenses don't keep idiots off the road, but I assure you it has kept some off. With a license, there is repercussion for your actions. There is accountability and there is training. More importantly, our waterways have become more and more dangerous every year, and I have seen the vast majority of truly unsafe boating performed by rentals or underage drivers. Both will be all but eliminated by a license program.
So some boat renters will go under. I am fine with that. They are the assholes renting watercraft to people with no training, responsibility or accountability.
You won't lose any more new boat sales than you lose new car sales.
froggy. i couldnt agree more with the seadoo rental companies! f&ck em!! athought i just cant agree on the licensing. i doesnt even keep bad drivers of the road. ..i doesnt even keep immigrants off the road. they couldnt even inforce it at the launch ramps because there are to many private ramps. my opinion is that proof of insurance and a completed safety course every few years should be mandatory for registration.

Froggystyle
12-20-2006, 12:24 PM
You guys are starting to frustrate me with the whole "licensing doesn't keep bad drivers off the road" argument. You are flat out wrong. Licensing doesn't keep ALL of the bad drivers off the road, but you would have 14 year olds out there on quads, un-insured motorists operating "legally" and no repercussion or accountability for your actions. You can't begin to imagine how many bad drivers are being kept off the road by licensing.
Just think about that for a minute... no license required to drive... none. No age limit. Rent a car with a credit card, no further anything needed...

dumbandyoung
12-20-2006, 12:26 PM
You guys are starting to frustrate me with the whole "licensing doesn't keep bad drivers off the road" argument. You are flat out wrong. Licensing doesn't keep ALL of the bad drivers off the road, but you would have 14 year olds out there on quads, un-insured motorists operating "legally" and no repercussion or accountability for your actions. You can't begin to imagine how many bad drivers are being kept off the road by licensing.
Just think about that for a minute... no license required to drive... none. No age limit. Rent a car with a credit card, no further anything needed...
okay okay.. they keep alot of the road.. but not all

Froggystyle
12-20-2006, 12:31 PM
okay okay.. they keep alot of the road.. but not all
With that in mind, imagine the impact it would have on our times out at the river... No rental jackasses... no 12 year old kids doing donuts on jet-skis, no pontoon boats with 40 people in them, no houseboats driving by braile into Copper Canyon...
I can't express how supportive I am of the whole idea. I'll go get a license... no problem. Turns out I will probably pass the test. Most non-responsible a-holes probably won't bother though, and that will keep them off the water.
I am all for it.

wsuwrhr
12-20-2006, 12:38 PM
okay okay.. they keep alot of the road.. but not all
Exactly westefarian.

wsuwrhr
12-20-2006, 12:38 PM
But I can't READ.
With that in mind, imagine the impact it would have on our times out at the river... No rental jackasses... no 12 year old kids doing donuts on jet-skis, no pontoon boats with 40 people in them, no houseboats driving by braile into Copper Canyon...
I can't express how supportive I am of the whole idea. I'll go get a license... no problem. Turns out I will probably pass the test. Most non-responsible a-holes probably won't bother though, and that will keep them off the water.
I am all for it.

RiverDave
12-20-2006, 12:39 PM
With that in mind, imagine the impact it would have on our times out at the river... No rental jackasses... no 12 year old kids doing donuts on jet-skis, no pontoon boats with 40 people in them, no houseboats driving by braile into Copper Canyon...
I can't express how supportive I am of the whole idea. I'll go get a license... no problem. Turns out I will probably pass the test. Most non-responsible a-holes probably won't bother though, and that will keep them off the water.
I am all for it.
Wes, have you ever taken a boater safety course? Don't give me the Navy Seal jargon either.. I'm asking if you ever took the time out of one of your river trip weekends to take one of the classes that boatcop (or one of his guys) teaches?
RD

dumbandyoung
12-20-2006, 12:41 PM
With that in mind, imagine the impact it would have on our times out at the river... No rental jackasses... no 12 year old kids doing donuts on jet-skis, no pontoon boats with 40 people in them, no houseboats driving by braile into Copper Canyon...
I can't express how supportive I am of the whole idea. I'll go get a license... no problem. Turns out I will probably pass the test. Most non-responsible a-holes probably won't bother though, and that will keep them off the water.
I am all for it.
yah your right i would go get one(license) if it made it safer.. we would also keep all the drunk 18yr olds borrowing daddies boat away too.. ive seen or heard about so many wrecks because of rental skis. ... just last summer i was wakeboarding and some dumbass on a seadoo was jumping wakes behind me. when he finally passed i noticed the big rental numbers on the ski. those guy should be shut down. the dont rent airplanes or cars to un unlicensed persons. so why loan some idoit ad 65mph waverunner? im truely amazed!

wsuwrhr
12-20-2006, 12:42 PM
You are talking about the classes you get on the shores of the river, right before you sign the paper saying you will finish the class at a later date?
Yes, I have taken one of those classes in Parker.
Brian
Wes, have you ever taken a boater safety course? Don't give me the Navy Seal jargon either.. I'm asking if you ever took the time out of one of your river trip weekends to take one of the classes that boatcop (or one of his guys) teaches?
RD

RiverDave
12-20-2006, 12:44 PM
You are talking about the classes you get on the shores of the river, right before you sign the paper saying you will finish the class at a later date?
Yes, I have taken one of those classes in Parker.
Brian
No no, I'm talking the full 8 hour dealio in a class room taught by a safety officer.
RD

wsuwrhr
12-20-2006, 12:47 PM
It seemed like an 8 hour dealio to me.
The officer told me he was out for everyone's safety, are you sure this isn't the same class?
Brian
No no, I'm talking the full 8 hour dealio in a class room taught by a safety officer.
RD

RiverDave
12-20-2006, 12:51 PM
It seemed like an 8 hour dealio to me.
The officer told me he was out for everyone's safety, are you sure this isn't the same class?
Brian
Did you get the certificate saying you took the boating safety class at the end of it? Where you can turn it into your insurance and get a discount etc?? If you had to promise to take the rest later then you didn't take teh whole class.
RD

wsuwrhr
12-20-2006, 12:55 PM
I got a certificate all right. The riverside class and certificate ended up costing me $100-200.
sure as shit didn't get much of a discount from my insurance either.
I decided not to show up for the rest of the class and just sent in my money. Figured My wife and I had enough of Parker's education seminars.
Brian
Did you get the certificate saying you took the boating safety class at the end of it? Where you can turn it into your insurance and get a discount etc?? If you had to promise to take the rest later then you didn't take teh whole class.
RD

RiverDave
12-20-2006, 12:57 PM
I got a certificate all right. The riverside class and certificate ended up costing me $100-200.
sure as shit didn't get much of a discount from my insurance either.
I decided not to show up for the rest of the class and just sent in my money. Figured My wife and I had enough of Parker's education seminars.
Brian
WTF?
The classes are free, so is the certificate? Suppose to save you 10 - 15% on insurance or something like that?
RD

wsuwrhr
12-20-2006, 01:00 PM
Sounds like I didn't take the right class.
The class was a pain in the ass, my boat got damaged during the lession, and the certificate I recieved cost me more than $100.
I sure as shit didn't save a damn thing on my insurance.
Brian
WTF?
The classes are free, so is the certificate? Suppose to save you 10 - 15% on insurance or something like that?
RD

OGShocker
12-20-2006, 01:18 PM
I have said it before, let the INSURANCE companies force people into training classes.
With a safety course, $500.00 per year.
Without a safety course, $5000.00 per year.
The "state" should only be involved in matching DMV/MVD records to insurance policies. Once the match is made, you may register your vessel. If you are found to NOT have insurance on your vessel, a $25,000 fine should be levied against you.
I took the Coast Guard Auxiliary training years ago. I have run boats of sizes from 14' to 61'. I can't tell you if the CGA made me a good/better Captain, but it sure as hell didn't hurt!
My.02
Mark

spectras only
12-20-2006, 01:29 PM
I have a licence , so is my son. It will be required for all ages by 2009 anyway .The safety course is an 8 hour class and cost $ 65 cdn. I noticed a bunch of peeps have 150mph + boats [ big$$$ ] here on the board and wonder how many took the effort and $$$ to attend Tres Martin's class ?
If I was an insurer I would insist the owner of such vessels producing a certificate from someone like Tres' school .

Jbb
12-20-2006, 01:29 PM
I took a course online.......15% off the top on insurance..

Froggystyle
12-20-2006, 01:35 PM
Wes, have you ever taken a boater safety course? Don't give me the Navy Seal jargon either.. I'm asking if you ever took the time out of one of your river trip weekends to take one of the classes that boatcop (or one of his guys) teaches?
RD
Not to take anything away from Alan's school, but I am pretty sure that my Navy Small Boat (under 40') captains certification, my WDZO (Water Drop Zone safety Officer) and my Coxswain's certs pretty much cover my knowledge of the waterways and boating regulations. I spent two weeks handling 11 meter RHIB's for the cert and have many, many hours of cert and re-cert training for the small boat captain's card.
So yes, I have taken time to do it. BTW, you can go do it next month if you want to.. you don't have to take away from a river trip, and they have a cert course in San Diego as well.

HM
12-20-2006, 01:52 PM
No no, I'm talking the full 8 hour dealio in a class room taught by a safety officer.
RD
Does that course include an open bar? :D

RiverDave
12-20-2006, 02:04 PM
Not to take anything away from Alan's school, but I am pretty sure that my Navy Small Boat (under 40') captains certification, my WDZO (Water Drop Zone safety Officer) and my Coxswain's certs pretty much cover my knowledge of the waterways and boating regulations. I spent two weeks handling 11 meter RHIB's for the cert and have many, many hours of cert and re-cert training for the small boat captain's card.
So yes, I have taken time to do it. BTW, you can go do it next month if you want to.. you don't have to take away from a river trip, and they have a cert course in San Diego as well.
I did do it. I took the course taught by Burns (same guy that arrested me which was why I had to take the damn thing in the 1st place.. LOL)
RD

Mandelon
12-20-2006, 05:40 PM
I say make the license graduated. Make the test really hard, but.....The higher your score, the higher your BAC can be and still pilot the craft legally. :devil:
I'd do the same with cars. Autobahn style testing. Your license plate would be a different color based upon your skills. Then you'd have special lanes for the top scorers. gold plates, silver plates, bronze plates, and yellow (for the Asians) plates. Better scores would allow you higher speed limits. :idea:

wsuwrhr
12-20-2006, 06:35 PM
Now licensing is starting to make SENSE.
That is how you keep idiots off the roads.
Brian
I say make the license graduated. Make the test really hard, but.....The higher your score, the higher your BAC can be and still pilot the craft legally. :devil:
I'd do the same with cars. Autobahn style testing. Your license plate would be a different color based upon your skills. Then you'd have special lanes for the top scorers. gold plates, silver plates, bronze plates, and yellow (for the Asians) plates. Better scores would allow you higher speed limits. :idea:

Moneypitt
12-20-2006, 07:16 PM
If you are cited for unsafe operation of ANY watercraft the school/certificate should be required before returning to the water, anywhere. No citation, no requirement, and yes, they have the computerized records to discover the difference. Cited, and no school? Impound the boat, stout fine, and no boat until training school completed. Safe boaters don't need the extra BS, and unsafe operators need to be removed by a law with some teeth in it.............MP

shueman
12-20-2006, 08:35 PM
I got a certificate all right. The riverside class and certificate ended up costing me $100-200.
sure as shit didn't get much of a discount from my insurance either.
I decided not to show up for the rest of the class and just sent in my money. Figured My wife and I had enough of Parker's education seminars.
Brian
According to Boatcop, the classes are FREE....:)
I got a 20% discount on my insurance from State Farm....
Take the on-line practice test...it's free too....:D

Racey
12-20-2006, 09:27 PM
Liscensing drivers hasn't eliminated any asswipes off the road, it's just another way for them to gain more controll over you, collect more taxes, get more cops enforcing noise to in turn check for drinking, so you can pay more fines etc etc....
Have you ever driven a car in a society that doesn't have automotive licensing?
That is a ridiculous statement. Can you imagine the sheer number of 12 year olds on the road if you could drive a car unlicensed? I would have. "Just to the store..."
the fact that you are going to require licensing is not going to do a thing to stop idiots from getting on the water. period. there are just too many people that lack common sense.
While liscensing drivers in automobiles may have reduced the number of idiots on the road, it certainly has not come close to eliminating them. you just have to always be looking out for what the idiot in the other boat is going to do.

Ike
12-21-2006, 08:37 AM
Here's an interesting point that came up on the BoatUS forum. What about a vision test. We get a vision test for a driver's license. If you apply for a commercial license you not only have a vision test but also a color blindness test. Perhaps this would be a good thing for all boat operators considering the different colored lights and navigation aids? Should older folks have to undego a vision test to renew their license?

wsuwrhr
12-21-2006, 08:40 AM
I have to differ, our class was not free, and I did not get a discount on my insurance.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Brian
According to Boatcop, the classes are FREE....:)
I got a 20% discount on my insurance from State Farm....
Take the on-line practice test...it's free too....:D

wsuwrhr
12-21-2006, 08:41 AM
In the new PC United States that would be called discrimination
Should older folks have to undego a vision test to renew their license?

Racey
12-21-2006, 10:08 AM
In the new PC United States that would be called discrimination
Sad but true. Common sense out the door, 'fairness' and PC welcome

Froggystyle
12-22-2006, 09:27 AM
the fact that you are going to require licensing is not going to do a thing to stop idiots from getting on the water. period. there are just too many people that lack common sense.
While liscensing drivers in automobiles may have reduced the number of idiots on the road, it certainly has not come close to eliminating them. you just have to always be looking out for what the idiot in the other boat is going to do.
?
"While liscensing drivers in automobiles may have reduced the number of idiots on the road, it certainly has not come close to eliminating them. "
Right. That's the point. Reduce the numbers. As we have found in the automotive side, you can't eliminate them, but reducing the numbers is a step in the right direction. A step away from... say... renting a boat to anyone with a $200 limit on his pre-paid credit card.
We are always going to be looking out for the idiots... at least the idiots will have passed a basic competency exam. Additionally, they will likely be the only idiots allowed to legally drive that boat that weekend (instead of turning it over to brother-in-law idiot for example).
Just the act of getting licensed will keep many buffoons, illegal drivers and others off the water.

AirtimeLavey
12-22-2006, 10:36 AM
?
"While liscensing drivers in automobiles may have reduced the number of idiots on the road, it certainly has not come close to eliminating them. "
Right. That's the point. Reduce the numbers. As we have found in the automotive side, you can't eliminate them, but reducing the numbers is a step in the right direction. A step away from... say... renting a boat to anyone with a $200 limit on his pre-paid credit card.
We are always going to be looking out for the idiots... at least the idiots will have passed a basic competency exam. Additionally, they will likely be the only idiots allowed to legally drive that boat that weekend (instead of turning it over to brother-in-law idiot for example).
Just the act of getting licensed will keep many buffoons, illegal drivers and others off the water.
I agree, it's common sense. I got into boating about 10 years ago, and was surprised that I didn't need to get any sort of license. Anytime I bring a newbie into the scene, they are always surprised about the lack of licensing requirements. It won't stop all the idiots, but it will stop a lot of them. I don't buy into the additional government conspiracy/bureacracy that will just screw us if licensing goes through, although I could see some additional fees.

Moneypitt
12-22-2006, 11:32 AM
What is to prevent the insurance companies from jacking your auto rates for an infraction on the water. If the system requires a boating license it is just another step in the direction of "big brother" completing the circle. I know a OUI is directed towards your auto record, so why not "no wake zone" tickets. As I said, if you screw up, class should be mandatory with a completion cert. No problems on the water, no requirement..............MP

Tres
01-12-2007, 08:46 AM
I have a licence , so is my son. It will be required for all ages by 2009 anyway .The safety course is an 8 hour class and cost $ 65 cdn. I noticed a bunch of peeps have 150mph + boats [ big$$$ ] here on the board and wonder how many took the effort and $$$ to attend Tres Martin's class ?
If I was an insurer I would insist the owner of such vessels producing a certificate from someone like Tres' school . And the insurance companies ask for the certificate. We have a secondary class that is for the performance boater that is a one day performance handling set skill with film and power point presentation. We are going to be in the Havasu area the week before the big Poker run. The ultra performance class for Monday 23th and 24th is sold out. We intend to conduct the secondary class either before on Sunday or after that a day before the run.

shueman
01-12-2007, 10:08 AM
http://yamahajetboaters.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10170/Education_Slide.jpg
Found on the NTSB Website...

shueman
01-12-2007, 10:09 AM
Another...
http://yamahajetboaters.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10170/PWC_Instruction.jpg

Moneypitt
01-12-2007, 10:32 AM
To those that would push for mandatory boat insurance laws and mandatory licenses to operate a boat, how long do you think it would take before all of our lakes and rivers had mandatory speed limits? The lakes with no wake speed limits don't have a boating accident problem, the ones with 35 MPH limits have very few serious accidents. Once we allow the insurance companies to get a foothold on our sport it will go in the toilet quickly. Insurance companies run the vehicular world as we know it. If we allow them into boating with another mandatory insurance law, how long before they realize if speeding tickets in cars raise rates, why not put speed limits on Havasu,(and all waterways) write tickets, raise rates......Hell, if they regulate speeds their losses would just about disappear. Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it..........MP

Jetaholic
01-12-2007, 10:47 AM
Next thing you know we'll have to smog our boats! :D
Of course, I wonder how the hell they would run them on the chassis dyno...

Moneypitt
01-12-2007, 11:00 AM
Next thing you know we'll have to smog our boats! :D
Of course, I wonder how the hell they would run them on the chassis dyno...
They have already started with the carb'd 2 strokes being banned in certain areas. It won't be long before all boats will have a noise and smog test prior to registration, and someone here has asked that insurance be checked prior to reg. If we let them, we will be regulated right out of our sport. How much will a 35K, 140 MPH boat be worth when there is no place to run it, and no one to insure it over 35 MPH?.............MP

Flyinbowtie
01-12-2007, 12:26 PM
I think it will wind up something like the ATV Safety Cert deal that was imposed on California by the old Consent Decree that arose out of the lawsuits filed during the days of ATCs.
Government responds to political pressure.
Pressure, in this case, is applied by insurance lobbys
It is applied by Law Enforcement, who grow tired of body recoveries.
It is applied by people who have lost a loved one in an on the water accident.
The exponential increase in the numbers of people on the inland waterways in the west is driving this. More people and vessels on the same waterways creates opportunities for problems. Too many people haved procured machines beyond their ability to operate, and then they operate them beyond that, bringing their total lack of common sense, self-control, and civilized behavior with them.
Then, they crash.
Sometimes, they kill people other than themselves.
Which involves all those entities listed above.
We will see the day when most states require some sort of licensing.
It won't eliminate all the idiots, but it will filter out some of them.
You know, like the DMV does, by not licensing blind people to drive cars, or children, or other members of society who ain't got it together. Granted, licensing doesn't catch all the potential problems, but it does get a percentage.
I am also among those who think the rental industry has been flying under the radar for years. You can't rent a car or a motorcyle without a license, why the hell should I be forced to share the lake with a nut on a 80MPH PWC who has never been on one before?

cruser
01-12-2007, 02:49 PM
Next thing you know we'll have to smog our boats! :D
Of course, I wonder how the hell they would run them on the chassis dyno...
At the Portland Boat Show, there are wakeboard boats that advertize they are catalytic converter equipped. I wonder how much that costs to implement/repair/replace.

Boatcop
01-12-2007, 03:13 PM
We will see the day when most states require some sort of licensing.
That day is already here. Currently 44 States require licensing or certification in one form or another.
As I've said before, I don't like the idea of formal licensing. Certification is another matter. It's a proven fact that nearly 90% of boaters involved in accidents have never had any formal boating education.
Just knowing which way to turn, what running lights mean, and basic navigation rules would drastically reduce collisions.

Not So Fast
01-12-2007, 03:15 PM
That day is already here. Currently 44 States require licensing or certification in one form or another.
As I've said before, I don't like the idea of formal licensing. Certification is another matter. It's a proven fact that nearly 90% of boaters involved in accidents have never had any formal boating education.
Just knowing which way to turn, what running lights mean, and basic navigation rules would drastically reduce collisions.
Agree 100% !!! NSF

SmokinLowriderSS
01-12-2007, 03:32 PM
Just one more way for the government to raise revenue. Pure and simple. There will be a cost for the test, cost for the liscense, cost of renewal ect.ect.ect. Never ends.
As long as it is as boatcop says (meaning "as long as it STAYS that way"), I have very little issue with a 1-time lifetime course similar to Hunter Safety, that is transferable from state to state (so I don't need more licenses to boat in Okla, Texas, Mo, and Ark just for the ones near me), and that it does NOT become an annual/occasional "renewal fee" for the state to use for revenue "enhancement".
Soon as that happens, the renewals start of at like $2 (no big deal), next thing you know, it's $5, pretty soon $10, $20, with the non=stop gradual excalation in the cost.

shueman
01-12-2007, 04:45 PM
As long as it is as boatcop says (meaning "as long as it STAYS that way"), I have very little issue with a 1-time lifetime course similar to Hunter Safety, that is transferable from state to state (so I don't need more licenses to boat in Okla, Texas, Mo, and Ark just for the ones near me), and that it does NOT become an annual/occasional "renewal fee" for the state to use for revenue "enhancement".
Soon as that happens, the renewals start of at like $2 (no big deal), next thing you know, it's $5, pretty soon $10, $20, with the non=stop gradual excalation in the cost.
So, $20 per year is too much to help safeguard you and the family while on the water...?? Fees would go back into the safety program, one would think...

Ike
01-12-2007, 05:45 PM
Government responds to political pressure.
Pressure, in this case, is applied by insurance lobbys
Having spent 25 years working in Boating Safety for the Coast Guard, frankly the insurance companies don't give a damn. We have had several programs over the years to try to get the insurance companies involved in boating safety and they all just died a quick death. They have it figured out. They are making a lot of money and not paying out much so they really don't want to change anything. I am not talking here about "marine insurance" which is a whole different ball game and involves mostly commercial vessels and big yachts. Most people who own small boats have them covered by homeowners or boat policies written by people like BoatUS. The only time the boat insurance companies lose big is when there is a natural disaster that destroys a lot of boats, like hurricanes. A lot of them are actually dropping hurricane coverage because of this. So don't give them any ideas like mandatory liability coverage, as we have with cars. They will jump on that like stink on sh...
They only thing that really upsets them is boat theft, which, while not as bigtime as auto theft, is rampant. The International Association of Marine Investigators (IAMI), is very involved with insurance companies on this. But when it comes to accidents, they just write the check. I have investigated accidents that the insurance investigators just looked at the boat and handed the owner a check, they didn't even want to see the results of the investigation.
Anyway, enough rant. Now I probably get my insurance canceled! LOL
I think mandatory education is the way to go and in those states where it is in place it seems to be working. In Ohio they have cut the fatality rate in half! For those who have been boating for years and know the rules the test should be a cake walk. I recently took the Washington state practice test off the top of my head, with no peeking at the states manual and scored 98%. I missed a couple on the inland white and orange buoys! Yipe. However after reading the manual I will ace it.
Ike

Seadog
01-12-2007, 06:02 PM
We already have speed limits and they are not going to decrease those. We are getting catalytic converters on boats, which is another poorly thought out idea. When cars first came out, they did not have licenses. Then they made a bunch of bad regulations. What we have now is what works for now. Whatever happens, we will try to adapt, or try to change the regulations.

Boatcop
01-12-2007, 06:07 PM
Just to expound on Ike's comments, the only time I've seen Insurance Companies get involved in accidents, is when there's the possibility of a law suit. Especially with major injuries or a fatality.
In one case, where the boater at fault was cited for failure to control the vessel to avoid collision, (then a $50 fine) the insurance company hired 3 high dollar criminal lawyers, a marine investigator, and fought the cite. Even appealed the decision. (Those high dollar lawyers and investigators can't hold a candle to me! :D )
Probably spent $50,000 to dodge a $50 dollar fine. (The marine Investigator pulled in about 5 grand just by himself)
But the real intent was to avoid a "guilty" verdict in criminal court, which can't be defended in civil litigation.
I was also called to the civil trial, two lears later. All told, they (the insurance company) probably shelled out 100 Gs or more, and still ended up losing both cases.

BRAD S
01-12-2007, 07:04 PM
While I fully support education. I cannot support licensing and believe the industry, (Manufactures, dealers, and insurance companies) must take a ground up leadership role in this industry.
All too often government and most top down inititives miss the mark and rarely provide efficeint means to problem solving. Additionally do not for one second believe the licensing initiatives are safety or education related. Only safe boating certification classes are safety related.
The insurance companies care very much about education and safe operation. Tres and I work very closely with the industry and all parties are concerned with reducing risk exposure. Believe it or not they care very very much!
Additionally all of us must be life long learners and continue to educate oursleves on safe operation, attention, and human factors. When we talk about high performance boat operation it's not all we know and have learned it is the 2% of what we dont know that gets us in trouble. Not unlike going from a single engine plane to a jet, type specific training is conducted to educate the operators on the specific operating characteristics of a craft.
Guys....The water is the last place we can enjoy virtulally limitless perfromance freedom and we are going to fight to keep it. This means we will demonstrate responsible operation, take responsibility for our actions and continue to show how safe we are without government regulating.
Thanks,
Brad Schoenwald

shueman
01-12-2007, 08:50 PM
The water is the last place we can enjoy virtulally limitless perfromance freedom and we are going to fight to keep it. This means we will demonstrate responsible operation, take responsibility for our actions and continue to show how safe we are without government regulating.
Well said... :cool:

Ike
01-13-2007, 05:51 PM
Here's some quotes from the Federal Boat Safety Act (Title 46 Chapter 43 for you legal types)
(a) The Secretary may prescribe regulations--
(1) establishing minimum safety standards for recreational
vessels and associated equipment, and establishing procedures and
tests required to measure conformance with those standards, with
each standard--
(A) meeting the need for recreational vessel safety;
(c) In prescribing regulations under this section, the Secretary
shall, among other things--
(1) consider the need for and the extent to which the
regulations will contribute to recreational vessel safety;
(2) consider relevant available recreational vessel safety
standards, statistics, and data, including public and private
research, development, testing, and evaluation;
(4) consult with the National Boating Safety Advisory Council
established under section 13110 of this title about the
considerations referred to in clauses (1)-(3) of this subsection.
The important thing here is that regulations be the minimum for safety, and meet an established need. They cannot be put in place just because someone thinks they would be a good idea. It requires proof of need, through statistical data, research, etc and the public has to be allowed input either through the National Boating Safety Advisory Council, or when the reg is proposed through written comments. If a subject is particularly controversial, as this is, then they would have to hold public hearings, at which any body can get up and have their say. I have held such hearings on the subject of prop guards and believe me everybody gets their say!.
My second point here is that no one has presented anything that establishes a need. So, what good is it! We can say it's good for national security all day long, but how? It a sure as hell won't improve safety.
I apologize to any insurance people out there who are interested in safety, but unfortunately the top management that runs the insurance companies are not. They are only interested in how much profit they can make and how little they can get away with paying out. I have talked to these people many times over the years and the Coast Guard has tried to get them involved and it has simply gone nowhere. The only one who really got involved was MetLife. They let us use the Snoopy logo for our ad campaigns and contributed a lot of money for the campaign. I even got to meet Snoopy (or at least the actor that plays the part at functions) and have my photo taken with him. My kids got a big kick out of that.

jammin
01-13-2007, 06:51 PM
About thirty years ago I started comming to the River. It was a place to party and get away from all the middle class morality of the city. We all got along with each other, it was understood, if you didn't like it-move on. We made this area grow. We invested our time and our dollars to make this a better boating mecca and we got along with each other, if you didn't like it, go home.
Now the very people and attidudes we were escaping from are all here trying to force their lifestyles and wisdom upon us again. They can't just leave it alone they have to be stirring the pot at all times, it has to be their way, to their liking. It has to represent thier own little idea of what and how everyone should be and think, all these different attitudes, we need insurance, no smoking, no drinking, no flashing, more law enforcement, more this and more that. All to accomadate the people that couldn't get along with each other in the first place.
We need to take a lesson from the old people who have been here for YEARS, if you can't get along and don't like it, move on!
The people who have been enjoying this place for twenty plus years made one BIG mistake, they went home during the week and told others what a good time they had here.
It looks like the good time is coming to an end!

Boatcop
01-13-2007, 07:31 PM
About thirty years ago I started comming to the River. It was a place to party and get away from all the middle class morality of the city. We all got along with each other, it was understood, if you didn't like it-move on. We made this area grow. We invested our time and our dollars to make this a better boating mecca and we got along with each other, if you didn't like it, go home.
Now the very people and attidudes we were escaping from are all here trying to force their lifestyles and wisdom upon us again. They can't just leave it alone they have to be stirring the pot at all times, it has to be their way, to their liking. It has to represent thier own little idea of what and how everyone should be and think, all these different attitudes, we need insurance, no smoking, no drinking, no flashing, more law enforcement, more this and more that. All to accomadate the people that couldn't get along with each other in the first place.
We need to take a lesson from the old people who have been here for YEARS, if you can't get along and don't like it, move on!
The people who have been enjoying this place for twenty plus years made one BIG mistake, they went home during the week and told others what a good time they had here.
It looks like the good time is coming to an end!
About 30 years ago is when I started patrolling the River. (28 actually, but close enough)
Back then if we got through a Memorial Day weekend with ONLY 8 or 10 deaths we had a good weekend. That's 10 families that lost their son, daughter, father, mother, husband, wife, brother, sister, etc. We'd run 15-20 or so deaths on the Parker Strip alone in an average year.
Now fast forward to 2006. 12 total accidents on the Strip last year. Only 4 of those caused injuries and zero deaths. And that's with about 10 times the number of boaters using the Strip now, compared with the '70s.
How did we do that?
By doing the very things you decry in your statement.
I don't know about you, but I really don't care to go back to those days. And I'm pretty sure very few other people will disagree with me.

Kim Hanson
01-13-2007, 07:40 PM
About thirty years ago I started comming to the River. It was a place to party and get away from all the middle class morality of the city. We all got along with each other, it was understood, if you didn't like it-move on. We made this area grow. We invested our time and our dollars to make this a better boating mecca and we got along with each other, if you didn't like it, go home.
Now the very people and attidudes we were escaping from are all here trying to force their lifestyles and wisdom upon us again. They can't just leave it alone they have to be stirring the pot at all times, it has to be their way, to their liking. It has to represent thier own little idea of what and how everyone should be and think, all these different attitudes, we need insurance, no smoking, no drinking, no flashing, more law enforcement, more this and more that. All to accomadate the people that couldn't get along with each other in the first place.
We need to take a lesson from the old people who have been here for YEARS, if you can't get along and don't like it, move on!
The people who have been enjoying this place for twenty plus years made one BIG mistake, they went home during the week and told others what a good time they had here.
It looks like the good time is coming to an end!
No.............( . )( . )...........:devil:

jammin
01-13-2007, 09:01 PM
ya, Boatcop, you really saved the day. pleeeeease!

Moneypitt
01-13-2007, 09:05 PM
Alan, any decline in accidents and injuries/deaths has to be a good thing, but can you tell me how mufflers and noise law enforcement plays into those numbers?...........MP

Ike
01-13-2007, 11:24 PM
Here's the latest news item on the licensing issue
The state boating law administrators are opposing licensing.
http://bangordailynews.com/news/t/news.aspx?articleid=145153&zoneid=500

Boatcop
01-14-2007, 07:36 AM
Alan, any decline in accidents and injuries/deaths has to be a good thing, but can you tell me how mufflers and noise law enforcement plays into those numbers?...........MP
Can't say for sure, because we don't concentrate on noise enforcement. It's really too high on our priority list.
We cracked down on boaters with NO mufflers, because that's what the public wanted. When the boss receives complaints and tells us to do something, we listen.
Out of some 200 citations issued last year, I'd say 9 or 10 of them were for noise. And all of those also had no mufflers (straight pipes or zoomies).
We can't pick and choose what laws were going to enforce. Everyone knows that there are muffler laws. If they run without them they're taking the chance of getting stopped, cited and booted off the water.

jammin
01-14-2007, 10:57 AM
"can't pick and choose what laws were going to enforce?"
I see, what about illegal immigrants, bartenders serving drunks, cops stopping citizens with no probable cause? What about those laws, let's just face it, laws are enforced based on political influence.
Polititions want it both ways, arrest drunk drivers but allow bars to serve drunks. They recieve revenue from the sale as well as from the violation. If polititions really wanted to stop drunk driving they would pass more aggressive laws not allowing people to get drunk in the first place but that would not be popular with campaign contributers, so they don't go there instead they go after drunk drivers and say their being pro active.
Now here's my point, your making a statement wanting us to believe that law enforcement is fair and to the benifit of the citizens and that is not completly true, law enforcement is driven by politics and money.

Boatcop
01-14-2007, 11:22 AM
"can't pick and choose what laws were going to enforce?"
Now here's my point, your making a statement wanting us to believe that law enforcement is fair and to the benifit of the citizens and that is not completly true, law enforcement is driven by politics and money.
This thread is about Boating, Boating Education/Licensing, and the effect of that Education on Boating Safety. It's not a referendum on politics and drunk driving laws. That has been discussed ad nauseum on this board.
Now here's my point. It doesn't matter if you flip bugers, install cable television, serve coffee at Starbucks, build boats, turn a wrench, or enforce laws.
You do what your superiors tell you to do. Unless you are you're own boss (and very few are, since even business owners have to answer to their customers,) as long as your orders don't violate laws, policy or ethics, you do what you're told.

sorry dog
01-14-2007, 11:32 AM
I have a boat license.
You all should feel much safer now.

jammin
01-14-2007, 01:01 PM
Your the one that told me that you saved the citizens on the river from themselves, now your only doing your job and don't want to talk about it!
This very attitude is what politicians rely on to enforce their unjustified and unwanted laws, when was the last time you served and protected!

Boatcop
01-14-2007, 01:45 PM
Your the one that told me that you saved the citizens on the river from themselves, now your only doing your job and don't want to talk about it!
This very attitude is what politicians rely on to enforce their unjustified and unwanted laws, when was the last time you served and protected!
I never said I saved the citizens. All I said was that the application of laws and regulations have reduced accidents and fatalities.
I've spent the last 32 years serving and protecting the citizens the United States. What have YOU done lately?

Jrocket
01-14-2007, 02:14 PM
Jammin,
Out out of all of the water LEO's out there,Boatcop has to be the most laid back and understanding guy out there to conversate with.
Licensing doesnt bother me,Im not going to throw up a rally for it but Im not going to cry if it happens either.Society is a fast moving thing,sometimes it changes for the good and the bad.

Jrocket
01-14-2007, 02:18 PM
About 30 years ago is when I started patrolling the River. (28 actually, but close enough)
Back then if we got through a Memorial Day weekend with ONLY 8 or 10 deaths we had a good weekend. That's 10 families that lost their son, daughter, father, mother, husband, wife, brother, sister, etc. We'd run 15-20 or so deaths on the Parker Strip alone in an average year.
Now fast forward to 2006. 12 total accidents on the Strip last year. Only 4 of those caused injuries and zero deaths. And that's with about 10 times the number of boaters using the Strip now, compared with the '70s.
Glad to see 2006 was a good year.Doesnt the statistics change year to year though,for example,wasnt it 2005 that had the bad year of fatalities?Seems not long ago there was a rash of fatalities in a short period of time,no?
Either way the public needs some sort of education on boating for first timers.More and more people getting into boating that have NO clue to what they just got themselves into.

ratso
01-14-2007, 02:26 PM
I've spent the last 32 years serving and protecting the citizens the United States. What have YOU done lately?
I can't wait for this one...http://***boat.com/ubb/graemlins/idea_2.gif :D

Boatcop
01-14-2007, 02:49 PM
Glad to see 2006 was a good year.Doesnt the statistics change year to year though,for example,wasnt it 2005 that had the bad year of fatalities?Seems not long ago there was a rash of fatalities in a short period of time,no?
2005 wasn't a real bad year. At least for us. We had 14 or so, with no fatals. Can't say the same for other spots on the River or its lakes.
I don't remember the exact numbers for 2004, but that was the worst we had in terms of deaths in 20 years. 4 people killed in 2 accidents. Both hit and run. My role was to make sure the investigations into the circumstances of the collisions was professional, complete, and done right.
We brought the offenders to justice. But unfortunately the prosecutor at the time plead them out, and the judge gave 1 year in jail and probation in each case. That didn't set well with us, nor the families. But I can rest knowing that my guys and I put together the best cases possible.

ratso
01-14-2007, 03:00 PM
2005 wasn't a real bad year. At least for us. We had 14 or so, with no fatals. Can't say the same for other spots on the River or its lakes.
I don't remember the exact numbers for 2004, but that was the worst we had in terms of deaths in 20 years. 4 people killed in 2 accidents. Both hit and run. My role was to make sure the investigations into the circumstances of the collisions was professional, complete, and done right.
We brought the offenders to justice. But unfortunately the prosecutor at the time plead them out, and the judge gave 1 year in jail and probation in each case. That didn't set well with us, nor the families. But I can rest knowing that my guys and I put together the best cases possible.
That sucks when you can basically walk on a hit and run...:jawdrop: The families as well as your crew must have been livid.:mad:

BRAD S
01-14-2007, 03:12 PM
Guys I thought this thread was about licensing without being linked directly to real safety initiatives, the balance of protection to freedom and the promise of Homeland Security to defend and protect the American way of life.
Now before I get too far into the weeds and being a new member to your forums I should introduce myself, especially since I am still at active duty U.S. Coast Guard Warrant Officer (retirement approved for 31 May 2007) and I do have the utmost respect and admiration for Admiral Allen.
My point is only education and more importantly communication teaches people to be safe. It’s not as much about your safety equipment check off as it is about getting people to understand they must be responsible and accountable for their actions.
My point is life jackets are like air bags.. You have to have them and need(should) to wear them in performance boats, but lets all hope they never really save us because we were all responsible enough to keep our boats upright. If we get operators to understand the real lessons of safe responsible operations and show it by our actions we will avoid the opportunity for regulators to regulate with feel good laws that provide no real or direct support to the issues.
Cheers,
Brad Schoenwald

Jrocket
01-14-2007, 03:14 PM
2004 that was the year I was thinking of.I'll leave it at that knowing that it effected alot of people here on the boards.
Im still on the fence about the muffler laws.I can see both sides of the arguement but for now I'll lean towrds muffless side.:D Looks like I might have just put a tag on my head ehhh?

Boatcop
01-14-2007, 03:19 PM
Now before I get too far into the weeds and being a new member to your forums I should introduce myself, especially since I am still at active duty U.S. Coast Guard Warrant Officer (retirement approved for 31 May 2007) and I do have the utmost respect and admiration for Admiral Allen.
Brad Schoenwald
Welcome aboard, Brad. I'll agree that Admiral Allen is a hell of a guy. The best Comdt I can remember.
Congratulations on your upcoming retirement, and best wishes in new endeavors. Thank you for your service.
Retired MKCS sends.

jammin
01-14-2007, 06:05 PM
What have I done lately.
I have built about 25,000 houses to provive shelter to families in the last 30 years.

Boatcop
01-14-2007, 06:25 PM
What have I done lately.
I have built about 25,000 houses to provive shelter to families in the last 30 years.
Wow. That's 2 houses built every day. I'm impressed.
:rolleyes:

Seadog
01-14-2007, 06:54 PM
Jammin, I love people that want to bypass the rules and then complain that the understaffed law enforcement only go after the obvious violators within their jurisdictions. I am not a big proponent of boat licensing, but sometimes we have to deal with changes in society. If it comes down to boat licensing or allowing jerks to rein the waterways, I will go with licensing.

Jrocket
01-14-2007, 06:57 PM
What have I done lately.
I have built about 25,000 houses to provive shelter to families in the last 30 years.
Ya lost me there.Are these houses free of charge for the people in need or just the regular built for sales deal? Is it a non profit organization?

shueman
01-14-2007, 06:59 PM
Jammin, I love people that want to bypass the rules and then complain that the understaffed law enforcement only go after the obvious violators within their jurisdictions. I am not a big proponent of boat licensing, but sometimes we have to deal with changes in society. If it comes down to boat licensing or allowing jerks to rein the waterways, I will go with licensing.
Exactly... :cool:

jammin
01-14-2007, 07:49 PM
Jrocket-does boatcop recieve a check? Try to stay with us.

ratso
01-14-2007, 08:11 PM
Wow. That's 2 houses built every day. I'm impressed.
:rolleyes:
http://***boat.com/ubb/graemlins/idea_2.gif I'm callin' bullshit on that one lol...:jawdrop: :D

ratso
01-14-2007, 08:13 PM
I get on people's asses about spelling... now I gotta do it over math too???http://***boat.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

Jrocket
01-14-2007, 08:14 PM
Jrocket-does boatcop recieve a check? Try to stay with us.
Im not trying to "stay" with you two,I merely asked a question in regaurds to "one" of your posts is all.It was out of curiousity is all.

No Name
01-14-2007, 08:17 PM
Wow. That's 2 houses built every day. I'm impressed.
:rolleyes:
They don't call him jamin for nothing.:D :D

ratso
01-14-2007, 08:33 PM
They don't call him jamin for nothing.:D :D
If he's doing two a day, he's jammin all right... right up somebody's ass.;)

Ike
01-14-2007, 10:06 PM
Welcome Brad S. Bravo Zulu!
I am another Coast Guard here, now retired. I know Adm Allen well, having worked for him and around him for many years. Like you I have a lot of respect for him and he's the best Commandant since Adm Gracey. But we all have a point of departure somewhere and having spent 25 years in boating safety, I just can't agree with him on this. That's why I started this thread. I wanted to get some discussion going. I also posted this on the Woodenboat Forum and the BoatUS forum. I put a poll on my web site too. Actually, so far the opinions have been about 50-50.
If this ever gets to the legislative or regulatory stage I am going to submit my comments to the docket on this.
Yes there was one year, 2002, when the number of fatalities nationwide went up. But the next year it went right back down and continues to go down, while the number of boats and people using them continues to increase. in 1991 it was 924 nationwide. In 2005 624. That is a pretty dramatic drop. In the 70's it was around 1300 annually. Part of this is due to safer boats. But much of it is due to education and enforcement. When the boating safety program started in 1971 the mantra was Education, Engineering and Enforcement. Too bad we did away with the BOSDETS, they were a terrific enforcement tool.
Jammin: I am impressed. Is this for Habitat for Humanity?

Ike
01-15-2007, 07:20 PM
I just thought I post the results of my poll on this is issue. So far it's about 50-50. No statistician would say that this is statistically valid but I find it interesting
The question was: What do you think about Licensing of boaters. Good idea? Bad Idea? There are many sides to this issue. Personal freedom. Safety. National security. Excessive bureauocracy. Law enforcement. Privacy Issues. The Commandant of the Coast Guard has come out in favor of licensing. This is a 180 degree change in the CG's position on licensing. How do you thing this will affect the nature of boating in the US?
Good 9 29%
Bad 6 19%
Don't Know 1 3%
Don't Care 0 0
Violently Opposed 8 25%
All For it! 8 25%
The poll is at http://www.123forum.com/freeforum/poll/index.php

Wicked Performance Boats
01-16-2007, 09:02 AM
I've sat here reading thru 5 pages of info and We are Wicked Performance Boats are for driver's education/boaters safety and only that! No licensing, no more government control. It's up to us to help police ourselves. Don't bring the idiots to the river and let our friends know when they do. Now as to enforcing existing laws and regulations, I believe they should NOT be enforced until they can be administered equally to all boaters. as in; exhaust noise levels. This is not administered equally. Many factory packages are way louder than over the transom headers But We are required to have mufflers. The bigger the boat the less trouble[more money] you get into. If the only way to regulate exhaust is by sound level then do it by sound level only, not by equipment that's visible. And make all boating legal changes every year be given out by the state that the boat is registered in with the new registration. Pat & Julie Beck

Boatcop
01-16-2007, 10:13 AM
We are Wicked Performance Boats are for driver's education/boaters safety and only that! No licensing, no more government control.
Most Boating Enforcement and Education professionals also follow that line of thinking. Including NASBLA (National Association of State Boating Law Administrators.)
Now as to enforcing existing laws and regulations, I believe they should NOT be enforced until they can be administered equally to all boaters. as in; exhaust noise levels. This is not administered equally. Many factory packages are way louder than over the transom headers But We are required to have mufflers. The bigger the boat the less trouble[more money] you get into. If the only way to regulate exhaust is by sound level then do it by sound level only, not by equipment that's visible.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. All State laws require ALL boats to have effective muffling devices installed to reduce exhaust noise. Whether they can be seen or not (visible) doesn't factor into the equation. They can be water-injected OT headers, mechanical mufflers, or even turbo chargers, if they effectively reduce exhaust noise. It's usually the loudness of the boat that first attracts attention. Only then is an inspection of the exhaust for muffling device (or lack of) warranted. Unless it's obvious that nothing is used (Straight OT pipes, zoomies, etc.)
Noise level is a separate issue, as some older muffling devices do little, if anything, to reduce exhaust noise. A boat with mufflers installed may still be above the limit set by law.
I agree that States need to adopt uniform noise testing procedures, to reduce confusion among boaters who boat in different or joint jurisdiction areas. But that can be said about numerous boating laws. Each State passes their own laws, and it's extremely difficult to change existing laws as that has to go through several levels of legislative bodies, including the Governor of the State.
We do our best to train our Officers to test uniformly, but there will always be some discretion among different Officers. I try to have our Officers use that discretion in favor of the boaters, especially along the Parker Strip where performance boating has a long history. The law states 86db (@ 50'), but we don't begin enforcment until the level is in the mid to high 90s. We can't guarantee that officers from other agencies and in other areas adopt the same philosophy.
However, the lack of any muffling devices or any attempt to reduce noise will be met with a cite and a trip back to the trailer every time.

Wicked Performance Boats
01-16-2007, 12:52 PM
All State laws require ALL boats to have effective muffling devices installed to reduce exhaust noise. Whether they can be seen or not (visible) doesn't factor into the equation. They can be water-injected OT headers, mechanical mufflers, or even turbo chargers, if they effectively reduce exhaust noise. It's usually the loudness of the boat that first attracts attention. Only then is an inspection of the exhaust for muffling device (or lack of) warranted. Unless it's obvious that nothing is used (Straight OT pipes, zoomies, etc.)
What I mean by that is, I've been boating for a bazillion years, on Puget Sound, many lakes around there,Lake Mead, Powell, and everywhere below there on the Colorado River and I've observed many citations being issued for many different reasons and in my opinion,if I had a dollar for every small boat issued a citation versus large, fast boats, I could buy me a large boat!
Large boats are not hassled nearly as much, except in a couple of small areas.
Every small boat must have a muffling device[in Nevada that means a physical muffler] but if it exits below the swim step it will not be physically checked for a muffler nor is any of the large boats running around. I know the procedure has changed for testing boats for noise. But bottom line is 'small boats are considered more high profile, than large boats'. Or is that because they're easier to catch? I can't remember the last time I saw a large boat on Parker pulled over. Not saying it doesn't happen, just way way less than small boats. Not meant to pick on you Alan. Was only an example.
And the other part is, When the law is each state is changed, there is no input from citizens. It's done "on our behalf" and we find out the next year on the lake, after it's a done deal. I know you are only doing you job as required by your boss, Alan, that's what we all do. But I fail to believe it's spread out fairly. Now all the guys with BIG boats are gonna come on here and tell us how they were hassled unfairly. But this is a general discussion, it is not any boat specific Pat

Boatcop
01-16-2007, 01:57 PM
When the law is each state is changed, there is no input from citizens. It's done "on our behalf" and we find out the next year on the lake, after it's a done deal.
That's one of the reasons I joined this board in the first place. I try to keep up to speed on what laws or changes are being considered in this area, which includes AZ, CA, and to some extent, NV.
When they begin to pass through the system, I'll let everyone know what's being considered, and encourage them to voice their opinions to their respective elected officials.
And if they do happen to pass, I'll make sure it's known so people aren't hiit by a surprise,
However, if the subject is important enough to boaters, I feel that THEY should be the ones seeking information on what changes are coming down the pike. I don't have any inside track to what's happening in the legislatures. I just take the time to look the info up. It's all public information and readily available on the internet.
If some people would spend as much time looking up the laws as they do bitching about them on here, they would be more versed in them than I am.

Wicked Performance Boats
01-16-2007, 11:45 PM
If some people would spend as much time looking up the laws as they do bitching about them on here, they would be more versed in them than I am.
Touche!!!!!!!:)

Moneypitt
01-17-2007, 12:00 AM
If some people would spend as much time looking up the laws as they do bitching about them on here, they would be more versed in them than I am.
Oh yeah, and be sure to tell the nice Officer how much more you know about the laws than he does. A sure fire way to get out of a citation..........MP

HBjet
01-17-2007, 12:22 AM
However, the lack of any muffling devices or any attempt to reduce noise will be met with a cite and a trip back to the trailer every time.
You know the last time I was on Parker was when I was stopped by a boat cop for traveling to fast. My boat was a 19' jet with headers and no mufflers. I was stopped for the speed though (that 26' Hallet running next to me wasn't :idea:), and then tested for the noise law. Well at idle I was at 91db and at 50 ft away hitting the throttle the meter went to 108db according to the officer. I was lucky and the boat cop asked me to get off the water without citation and not to come back until I put in mufflers. Haven't been back since!
HBjet:)

HBjet
01-17-2007, 12:30 AM
I have to agree with licensing boaters. I think it would be a good idea because anyone can get behind a wheel of a boat or jetski. I think they should license people based upon the type of watercraft that are going to operate such as one for Deep V's, Tunnels, Pontoons, Flat Bottoms, Jets, jetskis, etc... I think that would be great so someone who has driven a mild 50mph jet for 2 years doesn't think they can go buy a new 30' tunnel that runs 120mph and everything will be the same. Same goes for the guy with the 21' O/I that runs 50mph who wants to have a v-drive or jet river racer to hit the century mark on any given weekend. I sure hope licensing does happen and insurance companies can lower their rates and even loosen their restrictions of what can be insured.
HBjet

Ike
01-17-2007, 09:18 AM
Well it's made the news again, this time in Florida
http://www.tampabays10.com/news/local/article.aspx?storyid=47500

Moneypitt
01-17-2007, 09:42 AM
[QUOTE=Ike;2342802]Well it's made the news again, this time in Florida
Here we go, "a point system like cars", "stopping boats to see if they are ligitiment", "checking out people".........Sounds like a can of worms to be used for fishing expeditions. We already have boat registration if authorities want to check to see who owns a boat. I am not opposed to safety classes with certificates after a person is cited, but actually having a government issued license to operate a boat is going to far, IMO. Just more "big brother" stuff. What is next, odd and even days to use a waterway? ..........MP

Ike
01-17-2007, 05:49 PM
odd and even days to use a waterway
Wow what a thought. Let's see? that would halve the number of boats on the water, probably halve the number of accidents. What a great idea! You should work for the government!
Just Kidding.

BRAD S
01-18-2007, 06:21 AM
Thanks Guys! Semper Paratus! It is great to find fellow Coasties with a real passion for boats. Especially perfromance boats.
I was OIC of Sta San Juan when Admiral Allen was the D7 Commander and was incredibly impressed with his great intelligence and leadership. I also believe he put this out there to allow us the opportunity to find a reasonable solution.
So here you go: We will always support eductation and instuction which provide REAL skill sets to boaters but we do not support non-linked licensing efforts. If the objective is for law enforcement to be able to positively identify operators of watercraft then we simply expand a valid indentification requirement.
Would it not it be possible to add a requirement to say boat operators must carry a valid I.D in conjuction with the boat registration/documentation. Could be a state issued drivers license or I.D. card, Federal I.D or a Passport.
Lets leave the safety and education to the industry and let government get on with what they/we do...
Brad
BTW... It looks like we are coming to Havasu for Desert Storm.....

Ike
01-18-2007, 03:24 PM
Back in the 1990's (1991 I think) Congress passed an act called the Vessel Identification System http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode46/usc_sup_01_46_06_II_08_H_10_125.html
The purpose was for the Coast Guard to establish a database of all vessels in the US. The legal defintion of a vessel is any means of transportation on the water, so this would include all types of boats and ships. They have never completed this. I spent a little time working on this supplying the manufacturers data. There have been several attempts but no successful ones. My source tells me the Commandant wants this finished and they have contracted it out to a well known firm that does this kind of database work.
Then all law enforcement types would have immediate access to this database when doing a boarding. Info they do not have readily available now.
It seems to me this would be a lot more effective than making everyone get a license.

Ike
07-14-2007, 07:21 AM
BOATUS hAs finally taken a stand on the boater licensing issue! They have come out against it, and they agree with my arguments against it. Here are some quotes from a recent seminar on Homeland security.
New BoatU.S. President Nancy Michelman is taking a stance against a recent push towards boater licensing by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security officials
“Requiring millions of recreational boat owners to be licensed and tasking the already overburdened Coast Guard with implementing a duplicative system solely to identify those operating a boat will be costly to develop, take years to implement and will not result in a demonstrable improvement in national security,” said BoatU.S. at a recent “summit” meeting held under Homeland Security Department auspices.
“It would be far simpler and much less costly for the Coast Guard to ask Congress for the authority to require boat operators to produce the same identification now required to board a commercial airline flight,” the group said in its statement. “In addition, the Coast Guard should substantially expand its Waterway Watch program to enable thousands of recreational boaters to be the Coast Guard’s eyes and ears on the waterways and, it should clearly mark security zones – both public and private – to ensure that boaters know where they can and can not go.
Here's a link to the article. http://www.boating-industry.com/output.cfm?id=1262683
Good for BOATUS.!
Ike