Unions. What's your take?

[Boozer]

(This is pretty long winded)
I just watched an episode of Penn and Teller's Bullshit and they were talking about Walmart and it's fight to keep unions away which got me thinking about my hatred towards unions.
Personally I am anti union. I have worked for both union and non union companies and I have to say I preffered the non union employers.
Here's my reasons why.
I spent two years working for a union company. During my two years I was consistantly in the top 10% of the sales force. I got along with all of my co-workers, met all the objectives and was well within every one of the desired metrics. Towards the end of my 2 year tenure I got on the bad side of sales manager. She and I just didn't click. Needless to say I was taken into an office and suspended with termination pending for accessing the internet and specifically the content of ***boat. The union rep told me they could do nothing for me even though EVERY SINGLE person on the sales floor used the internet and probably had worse internet content chached in their machines then mine.
Six months prior to my employment demise our sales training class rooms were flooded with a bunch of nimrods. I found out that the recent surge of nimrod trainees was due to a suit the union had recently won. The people in training were former sales reps who were terminated a few years prior due to not being able to obtain sales objectives said to be "unreasonable." At the time of these peoples departure their sales objectives were about 20% of the current objectives. Just for showing up to the first day of training they were given 2 years of paid health benefits for them and their families and 6 months of target pay (roughly $30,000). Half showed up the first day collected their checks, filled out their insurance forms, and left never to return. The other half tried to make it, but out of about 30 people only 1 person managed to get past the 90 day probationary period once on the sales floor, none of the rest could make the target numbers.
After several talks with people who work for union organizations and my own experience I can only arrive at one conclusion. Unions only protect those who don't deserve to have the job they have in the first place. They promote poor work ethics and harbor people who continually drain their employers. Yet they do nothing to protect those who actually NEED and DESERVE their help.
Recently I attended a convention in Las Vegas as an Exhibitor. In Las Vegas you are not allowed to transport any of your own freight from the dock to your booth, it must be hauled in by union employees. Also, if hanging signage, building anything, and so on so forth you are not allowed to do it yourself you must hire union employees to do it for you. The union employees are hard on your equipment. I can't tell you how many crates I seen dropped including my own (these crates contain 100's of thousands of $$ worth of mechandise). Everything is done on "their" time and at "their" pace and you are not to complain about it! To save time I brought in a genie material lift to lift a large overhead part of my exhibit display. I put it in a nice crate with a door and so on so I could get it in and out with ease. I used it to lift one small part of my exhibit and put it away. At the end of the show the crate containg my lift was returned to me with all the hinges and locks ripped off of it and about 15 screws holding on what was once the access door. When I removed the lift to take down my display I noticed it had been damaged, one of the legs was bent in a manner that made it inoperable, luckily I beat it enough with a hammer that it was operable again. It was later explained to me that this type of thing was common and privately encouraged by the union officials. It's the teamsters way of saying "Don't mess with the union." So this union protects it's employees so they can wreck peoples things, transport peoples belongings in a wreckless fashion, and treat their customers like shit.
How are unions suppose to be any good? Why in the hell do Americans still allow this organized bullshit to go on???
What's your take?

[Sleek-Jet]

I'm not going to get into this, but I bet a union guy would only post one thread on the subject... :D

[Boozer]

I'm not going to get into this, but I bet a union guy would only post one thread on the subject... :D
I fixed that. Next time I'll seek representation before posting.

[wedge44]

It's because of unions that so called American Cars are built in Mexico or Canada....outsourceing. Union workers are unskilled and don't do sh*t....They won't even pick food in the fields....just my .02 cent....Wedge :D

[BadKachina]

Not really a big union guy, but having worked in the LTL trucking industry one thing unions do is set a standard for pay for all the union and non-union companies.

[fatboy95]

It's because of unions that so called American Cars are built in Mexico or Canada....outsourceing. Union workers are unskilled and don't do sh*t....They won't even pick food in the fields....just my .02 cent....Wedge :D
give me 2% of your net wage and I will make certain you have the right to go on strike

[wedge44]

why would I go on strike or pay someone who doen't give two sh*t's about whether I strike or not ......23 years same company for me....good workers hard to find most want to hide behind union protection, I'm now management dealing with union workers.....Wedge

[MONEYFURNOTHIN]

Unions dont belong in some fields, sale's being one of them. However if you dug ditch's for a living you would want to be represented by a union. Unions protect workers right's period. I driver trucks for a living (teamsters local 399 hollywood) and make 6 figure income, get fed like a king, and treated like one by all on set. I dont think this would be the case if it werent for the union. Our union also protects it senoir members, keeping the younger stronger guys from pushing them out. Unions raise wages for blue collar workers and make sure they have health benifits. I have been on the other side of the table and understand that point of view also. Just depends what side of the work force your on. If you wore my boots to work, you would be happy to be union.

[Troy McClure]

Unions dont belong in some fields, sale's being one of them. However if you dug ditch's for a living you would want to be represented by a union. Unions protect workers right's period. I driver trucks for a living (teamsters local 399 hollywood) and make 6 figure income, get fed like a king, and treated like one by all on set. I dont think this would be the case if it werent for the union. Our union also protects it senoir members, keeping the younger stronger guys from pushing them out. Unions raise wages for blue collar workers and make sure they have health benifits. I have been on the other side of the table and understand that point of view also. Just depends what side of the work force your on. If you wore my boots to work, you would be happy to be union.
I'm guessing you work in the entertainment industry? If so, you might want to ask yourself why a whole lot of films that would normally be fine to shoot in the States are now being shot in Canada and/or overseas. :confused:

[Jyruiz]

I work at a place where 80% of the employees are union (I am not one of them) and I see how these unions protect bad employees, and you can't reward the good ones, because if you do, you have to reward all of them in that department so the good employees get screwed.
Everytime the contract is up, the union tells everybody to get ready to strike ahead of time to try to intimidate the management. With all that said, I am not a union fan at all and I don't see why we need them this day in age.

[Boozer]

Unions dont belong in some fields, sale's being one of them. However if you dug ditch's for a living you would want to be represented by a union. Unions protect workers right's period. I driver trucks for a living (teamsters local 399 hollywood) and make 6 figure income, get fed like a king, and treated like one by all on set. I dont think this would be the case if it werent for the union. Our union also protects it senoir members, keeping the younger stronger guys from pushing them out. Unions raise wages for blue collar workers and make sure they have health benifits. I have been on the other side of the table and understand that point of view also. Just depends what side of the work force your on. If you wore my boots to work, you would be happy to be union.
Do you think your 6 figure lifestyle is contributing to the push for Mexican truckers being allowed over here?

[thumbs]

Unions had their time and place.

[Chico&Zeus]

I love the union, I grew up in Chicago, got into the union at 18, they trained me, put me through a wonderful apprenticeship program. I moved out here as a journeyman millwright and was 10 years ahead of everyone my age in knowledge and experience. I worked in some pretty "unsafe" chemical plants back there, the union is the organization that ensured my safety....not OSHA, they wouldn't even visit the site. Anyway, now I work for a general contractor in Phoenix, in the "Industrial" trade, building water and waste water treatment facilities, what I wouldn't give to have the skilled tradesmen from back east. I try to train as many young guys as I can, but it just isn't the same, and the company just hasn't bought into the value of a good apprenticeship program.

[wedge44]

in addition too the fact that he probably got is job thru a union family member:D :D :D
I have some friend in 399 who are not family or friends and it's not 6 figures or easy.....wedge

[Outnumbered]

Unions had their time and place.
Key word..HAD. Good point, agreed.

[Ultrafied]

Unions served a purpose at one time, but in today's world, I really don't see a need for the union.

[boatsnblondes]

Im not a big union guy, and I AM a union guy. Unions go against all the Republican tendancies I have, and for the most part, I can't stand the ideas of unions anymore. WHY IS THIS?? Simply, most union people are socialists, at least to me. Far, far, far left wingers, think that the company should kiss thier asses or else. Case in point? the useless shits in Vegas that tore that guys stuff up. Me? I think if more and more companies take the convention business away from Vegas, to places not so unionized, that this crap would go away. Those guys in Vegas pull that BS because someone lets them. As for RR unions, I have a love hate thingy going...I hate the way they piss off the managers, because then we all pay, but then I think of what my workday and salary would be if they weren't there...who knows? Better? Worse? No idea..but they fuel the democratic agenda, and are the heart of the left wing push in this country. Just my .02

[bordsmnj]

i am a union guy. i'm not for all the unions. i'm a republican. i belong to the IBEW. as electricians we're better, period. i've worked both ways. i won't be going back to the scab pool. i see some things have not worked out for you with the union that you were in. they are not all the same. to stereotype is ignorant. i wanna see the non-union job where you can give your supervisor grief and not suffer reprocussions. there are however a lot of dick draggers in unions but for every couple of worthless ****s milkin' the system there's a bunch of guys who show up everyday on time and put in a solid days work. those guys stay real busy. they keep our Local competative. let me just say this: the day the IBEW goes away is the day your electrition will speak mexican and do a realy shitty job for you. you will see the difference between skilled and unskilled.

[MONEYFURNOTHIN]

why would I go on strike or pay someone who doen't give two sh*t's about whether I strike or not ......23 years same company for me....good workers hard to find most want to hide behind union protection, I'm now management dealing with union workers.....Wedge
This is really hard to make sese of. Im thinking your anti union, but it doesnt make enought sense to tell?

[MONEYFURNOTHIN]

I'm guessing you work in the entertainment industry? If so, you might want to ask yourself why a whole lot of films that would normally be fine to shoot in the States are now being shot in Canada and/or overseas. :confused:
I am, and the anwser to you question is because the canadian govt give producers huge incentives and tax relief to shoot in there country.

[WetWillie]

I fell the same way as you EXACTLY! I have had numerous jobs in different states that were in a Union Bldg or Union town or area. The work we do is a specialty when it comes to programming equipment. So I have a customer of mine and a nationwide deal to boot. They open a store in Chicago and we are told we cannot do ANY work in this town. We are told we can just observe these guys do the work!!! How the hell am I supposed to bid that??? I dont know how long this will take? But if I dont do the job the customer will be upset. Union guys take longer lunches and ALL there breaks and I mean ALL of them. NO additional extra effort at all just a cruz. We got so far behind watching these bozos trying to learn our work and job. Granted we gave them 20% extra hours because we figured there would be a learning curve to complete a store we do in 20% less hours. I flew in my own crew to Chicago. We worked at night while my supervisor watched them during the day. After about 3 days they noticed cameras and things going up and started to say things about the little elves working at night. On night 4 my guys showed up at 7pm to go to work and Guido and crew are waiting for them!! Told them they will shut the whole site down if we don't stop working!! So I flew my crew home and just dealt with it.. I WAS PISSED!
I now have a job site in Long Beach that signed some union laborers on for a diffrent trade. I have had this account for 3 yrs and I make good money and service the crap out of them. Now the union is pressuring my guys and me to sign up my site team to the union for this one BIG job. I have been fighting it but they say I am running the risk loosing everything!!! They are saying they will customize the contract for this one job. I told them I will pay there dues and fees but I DO NOT WANT TO JOIN THE UNION.. They say they cant do that..... I am still waiting for the contract just to review..
WHY THE HELL WOULD ANYONE WANT TO HIRE A UNION COMPANY??? WAGES ARE MUCH MORE THEN A PRIVATE COMPANY??? Is it the pressure they will picket the site??
How does this go on in this country? I still come across it in downtown San Diego some of the buildings are Union?? Or the elevator is run by the union??
Its unbelievable??
I come from Union family as my Brother and Dad are police officers and I guess they are a part of a union.. I just don't care for them in my business I guess. I don't think they motivate people when they feel they are protected from being terminated. Make it to 700 hrs and you get a $2 raise seems to be the mentality....
I am done ranting...

[Troy McClure]

I am, and the anwser to you question is because the canadian govt give producers huge incentives and tax relief to shoot in there country.
And they don't have to deal with the Unions.. BTW, almost every State in the the U.S. would/does offer incentives. Don't believe everything your Union rep tells you.

[Havasu1986]

I am a part owner of a UNION fire sprinkler company that was started in 1969. I would never consider hiring non-union help in our industry. We do small jobs and big jobs. Without the union training I would have to hire unskilled people off the street and risk the problem of lawsuits for damages due to unqualified work. We don't have to worry about what we have to pay the workers because when I signed the UNION agreement I already knew what I would be paying them, including benefits. The UNION is not for everybody but it has worked for my company for over 38 years.:)

[MONEYFURNOTHIN]

I work at a place where 80% of the employees are union (I am not one of them) and I see how these unions protect bad employees, and you can't reward the good ones, because if you do, you have to reward all of them in that department so the good employees get screwed.
Everytime the contract is up, the union tells everybody to get ready to strike ahead of time to try to intimidate the management. With all that said, I am not a union fan at all and I don't see why we need them this day in age.
Unfourtantly sometimes bad workers hide behind unions... there is no denying that! In my experience, there a small percentage of the work force. As far as contract time, ( i have been through many) its a big game between the unions and the companies. The companies cry broke, and the unions threaten to strike. Pretty standard. Unions also dont want to see companies go out of business. I have worked for a co. in this situation. The union asked to go through there books, the co. agreed. The union came back to us and asked we take a one year deal with no increases. We accepted.

[TBONE1904]

(This is pretty long winded)
I just watched an episode of Penn and Teller's Bullshit and they were talking about Walmart and it's fight to keep unions away which got me thinking about my hatred towards unions.
Personally I am anti union. I have worked for both union and non union companies and I have to say I preffered the non union employers.
Here's my reasons why.
I spent two years working for a union company. During my two years I was consistantly in the top 10% of the sales force. I got along with all of my co-workers, met all the objectives and was well within every one of the desired metrics. Towards the end of my 2 year tenure I got on the bad side of sales manager. She and I just didn't click. Needless to say I was taken into an office and suspended with termination pending for accessing the internet and specifically the content of ***boat. The union rep told me they could do nothing for me even though EVERY SINGLE person on the sales floor used the internet and probably had worse internet content chached in their machines then mine.
Six months prior to my employment demise our sales training class rooms were flooded with a bunch of nimrods. I found out that the recent surge of nimrod trainees was due to a suit the union had recently won. The people in training were former sales reps who were terminated a few years prior due to not being able to obtain sales objectives said to be "unreasonable." At the time of these peoples departure their sales objectives were about 20% of the current objectives. Just for showing up to the first day of training they were given 2 years of paid health benefits for them and their families and 6 months of target pay (roughly $30,000). Half showed up the first day collected their checks, filled out their insurance forms, and left never to return. The other half tried to make it, but out of about 30 people only 1 person managed to get past the 90 day probationary period once on the sales floor, none of the rest could make the target numbers.
After several talks with people who work for union organizations and my own experience I can only arrive at one conclusion. Unions only protect those who don't deserve to have the job they have in the first place. They promote poor work ethics and harbor people who continually drain their employers. Yet they do nothing to protect those who actually NEED and DESERVE their help.
Recently I attended a convention in Las Vegas as an Exhibitor. In Las Vegas you are not allowed to transport any of your own freight from the dock to your booth, it must be hauled in by union employees. Also, if hanging signage, building anything, and so on so forth you are not allowed to do it yourself you must hire union employees to do it for you. The union employees are hard on your equipment. I can't tell you how many crates I seen dropped including my own (these crates contain 100's of thousands of $$ worth of mechandise). Everything is done on "their" time and at "their" pace and you are not to complain about it! To save time I brought in a genie material lift to lift a large overhead part of my exhibit display. I put it in a nice crate with a door and so on so I could get it in and out with ease. I used it to lift one small part of my exhibit and put it away. At the end of the show the crate containg my lift was returned to me with all the hinges and locks ripped off of it and about 15 screws holding on what was once the access door. When I removed the lift to take down my display I noticed it had been damaged, one of the legs was bent in a manner that made it inoperable, luckily I beat it enough with a hammer that it was operable again. It was later explained to me that this type of thing was common and privately encouraged by the union officials. It's the teamsters way of saying "Don't mess with the union." So this union protects it's employees so they can wreck peoples things, transport peoples belongings in a wreckless fashion, and treat their customers like shit.
How are unions suppose to be any good? Why in the hell do Americans still allow this organized bullshit to go on???
What's your take?
My father owned a non union electrical contracting company that he started from the ground up to support his family (me and the greatest mom/wife ever), and he always told me the only reason you work for a union company is if you are not good, not productive, want raises based on time not performance or you are a minority. I am sure I will get heat from this one, however let me elaborate. My family is enough Indian to receive money, however we don't have the documentation (my grandfather was in the Navy). My fathers younger sister (my Aunt) divorced my uncle and married a jackass. Well her oldest son (my cousin) who is a year younger than me has to deal with his moms new family. They are Indian as well, however they are lazy f@cks. The oldest is a union concrete layer, he is such a loser, if it wasn't for him being "Indian" he would have sh*t. He works at the most 4 months a year, has a new truck (oh did I mention DUI's an indian!!) he has 3 I believe. I have to say now that I am older and have seen both sides most union workers are over paid....plain and simple.

[MONEYFURNOTHIN]

Do you think your 6 figure lifestyle is contributing to the push for Mexican truckers being allowed over here?
Im not a "trucker", and i dont no alot about nafta. I do no that it has not worked the way it was intended and alot of union drivers in america are really upset. But for the record, i dont thing over the road truckers are pulling down 6 figure incomes.

[brianwhiteboy]

i am a union guy. i'm not for all the unions. i'm a republican. i belong to the IBEW. as electricians we're better, period. i've worked both ways. i won't be going back to the scab pool. i see some things have not worked out for you with the union that you were in. they are not all the same. to stereotype is ignorant. i wanna see the non-union job where you can give your supervisor grief and not suffer reprocussions. there are however a lot of dick draggers in unions but for every couple of worthless ****s milkin' the system there's a bunch of guys who show up everyday on time and put in a solid days work. those guys stay real busy. they keep our Local competative. let me just say this: the day the IBEW goes away is the day your electrition will speak mexican and do a realy shitty job for you. you will see the difference between skilled and unskilled.
I agree with you 100%. I'm too a union electrician in L.A. If some of you could see the sh_t ass work that some non-union shops do it would blow your mind. Now I'm not saying that they're aren't sub-standard union shops (and good non-union shops for that fact), but for the most part we take pride in what we do and we do it right the first time. I don't agree with everything the union does, but they do take care of me and my family - like decent wages and medical benefits.
And beleive me, on our jobs, if you don't pull your weight they'll smoke your ass and get someone who will. Our trade is not looking to drag our feet. We have such a low market share (in L.A.) that we couldn't afford to lose any work. I think that's what keeps us motivated to do a good job on time and on budget. Unions are the minority and maybe had a bigger impact back in the day, but there is still a need for them today ESPECIALLY when so many companies are hiring illegals off the street and potentially taking away a job from and American.
Oh....and just how much do you like having 8 hour work days.....you can thank the UNIONS for that.

[MONEYFURNOTHIN]

in addition too the fact that he probably got is job thru a union family member:D :D :D
I have some friend in 399 who are not family or friends and it's not 6 figures or easy.....wedge
Its hard not to take offense to that cause im one of the rare cases who does not have family in the biz. I got in through determination and persistance. I stay busy for the same reasons.

[xs ultra]

I'm shocked to hear all the negative stuff from you guys . I thought I was alone on this They had there time in life not now .
my .02 cents unions suck.

[Troy McClure]

I am a part owner of a UNION fire sprinkler company that was started in 1969. I would never consider hiring non-union help in our industry. We do small jobs and big jobs. Without the union training I would have to hire unskilled people off the street and risk the problem of lawsuits for damages due to unqualified work. We don't have to worry about what we have to pay the workers because when I signed the UNION agreement I already knew what I would be paying them, including benefits. The UNION is not for everybody but it has worked for my company for over 38 years.:)
I've subbed out ONE job to a Union co. (Electrical) Laziest POS's I've ever dealt with. Worked about 15 min. for every hour a non-union company would work. Their foreman was fine with the progress. YEA, Unions are GREAT!!:mad:

[MONEYFURNOTHIN]

I fell the same way as you EXACTLY! I have had numerous jobs in different states that were in a Union Bldg or Union town or area. The work we do is a specialty when it comes to programming equipment. So I have a customer of mine and a nationwide deal to boot. They open a store in Chicago and we are told we cannot do ANY work in this town. We are told we can just observe these guys do the work!!! How the hell am I supposed to bid that??? I dont know how long this will take? But if I dont do the job the customer will be upset. Union guys take longer lunches and ALL there breaks and I mean ALL of them. NO additional extra effort at all just a cruz. We got so far behind watching these bozos trying to learn our work and job. Granted we gave them 20% extra hours because we figured there would be a learning curve to complete a store we do in 20% less hours. I flew in my own crew to Chicago. We worked at night while my supervisor watched them during the day. After about 3 days they noticed cameras and things going up and started to say things about the little elves working at night. On night 4 my guys showed up at 7pm to go to work and Guido and crew are waiting for them!! Told them they will shut the whole site down if we don't stop working!! So I flew my crew home and just dealt with it.. I WAS PISSED!
I now have a job site in Long Beach that signed some union laborers on for a diffrent trade. I have had this account for 3 yrs and I make good money and service the crap out of them. Now the union is pressuring my guys and me to sign up my site team to the union for this one BIG job. I have been fighting it but they say I am running the risk loosing everything!!! They are saying they will customize the contract for this one job. I told them I will pay there dues and fees but I DO NOT WANT TO JOIN THE UNION.. They say they cant do that..... I am still waiting for the contract just to review..
WHY THE HELL WOULD ANYONE WANT TO HIRE A UNION COMPANY??? WAGES ARE MUCH MORE THEN A PRIVATE COMPANY??? Is it the pressure they will picket the site??
How does this go on in this country? I still come across it in downtown San Diego some of the buildings are Union?? Or the elevator is run by the union??
Its unbelievable??
I come from Union family as my Brother and Dad are police officers and I guess they are a part of a union.. I just don't care for them in my business I guess. I don't think they motivate people when they feel they are protected from being terminated. Make it to 700 hrs and you get a $2 raise seems to be the mentality....
I am done ranting...
If i was in your shoes i would agree. Those guys in chicago, well they still have a job because of there union. With out it, they would have all been laid off and your crew would have replaced them. Like i said, it just depends where you stand.

[XtrmWakeborder]

My pops told me a story of when he was in the IBEW. I guess he was working on building panels and the welder in front of him went on his union break. Well my dad wanted to go out that night and was about to start working overtime so he figured he might as well weld the panel and wire it up so he could save the company some money, help the welder out with his work, and get out to go on time. When he came back to work after the weekend he was called into the office and charged will stealing a brothers job and suspended from work without pay. He quit the union and has had the same job for over 25 years now. As has been said before unions HAD their place a long time ago.

[MONEYFURNOTHIN]

And they don't have to deal with the Unions.. BTW, almost every State in the the U.S. would/does offer incentives. Don't believe everything your Union rep tells you.
I would love to know where you getting your info? Only a few states in the us offer isncentives. Canadian labor rates are almost identical. It use to be alot cheaper because of the exchange difference, but now that the money is almost the same, there is not much savings in labor. Thats why hollywood is pumping again.

[Baja Big Dog]

Ive had three accidents involving company (that the company knows about) vehicles in less than a year.
I had to go to rehab for a month (paid) when I got caught with dirty piss.
I ran a forklift into a customers piece of equiptment, destroyed it, and got away with it because my "brother" couldnt tell managment who did it.
Got caught 22 miles from my route, on GPS, at my house.
Ill cut this short, I could go on for hours....
IM a union truck driver, and I get paid over 24 bucks an hour!!! Thanks for the union.....
If this dont make you sick!!!!
Oh yea and this guys still employed.......

[brianwhiteboy]

My father owned a non union electrical contracting company that he started from the ground up to support his family (me and the greatest mom/wife ever), and he always told me the only reason you work for a union company is if you are not good, not productive, want raises based on time not performance or you are a minority. I am sure I will get heat from this one, however let me elaborate. My family is enough Indian to receive money, however we don't have the documentation (my grandfather was in the Navy). My fathers younger sister (my Aunt) divorced my uncle and married a jackass. Well her oldest son (my cousin) who is a year younger than me has to deal with his moms new family. They are Indian as well, however they are lazy f@cks. The oldest is a union concrete layer, he is such a loser, if it wasn't for him being "Indian" he would have sh*t. He works at the most 4 months a year, has a new truck (oh did I mention DUI's an indian!!) he has 3 I believe. I have to say now that I am older and have seen both sides most union workers are over paid....plain and simple.
"If your not good, not productive, and want raises based on time not performance" - what a joke. This would apply to ALL of the American workforce, not just unions.
And as for being over paid - that's pretty funny... because most of the guys I work with couldn't even afford to buy a house, even with their wife working. I don't see union guys having anymore then the next guy, but if they do, then maybe you should tell us where they work so that we can all join in and make some $$$!

[Havasu1986]

I've subbed out ONE job to a Union co. (Electrical) Laziest POS's I've ever dealt with. Worked about 15 min. for every hour a non-union company would work. Their foreman was fine with the progress. YEA, Unions are GREAT!!:mad:
I can tell you it wasn't a fire sprinkler company in So. Cal. My supertentants and foreman are on there a$$ every day. Ask the inspectors in So.Cal. what jobs they would rather inspect. A UNION job or a SCAB job.:)

[MONEYFURNOTHIN]

Ive had three accidents involving company (that the company knows about) vehicles in less than a year.
I had to go to rehab for a month (paid) when I got caught with dirty piss.
I ran a forklift into a customers piece of equiptment, destroyed it, and got away with it because my "brother" couldnt tell managment who did it.
Got caught 22 miles from my route, on GPS, at my house.
Ill cut this short, I could go on for hours....
IM a union truck driver, and I get paid over 24 bucks an hour!!! Thanks for the union.....
If this dont make you sick!!!!
Oh yea and this guys still employed.......
Sounds like really week mngmt to me! What a p.o.s

[Troy McClure]

I would love to know where you getting your info? Only a few states in the us offer isncentives. Canadian labor rates are almost identical. It use to be alot cheaper because of the exchange difference, but now that the money is almost the same, there is not much savings in labor. Thats why hollywood is pumping again.
Re-read my post, I said almost every State either DOES or WOULD offer incentives. Exchange rates are moot.

[Havasu1986]

[QUOTE=XtrmWakeborder;2486086]My pops told me a story of when he was in the IBEW. I guess he was working on building panels and the welder in front of him went on his union break. Well my dad wanted to go out that night and was about to start working overtime so he figured he might as well weld the panel and wire it up so he could save the company some money, help the welder out with his work, and get out to go on time. When he came back to work after the weekend he was called into the office and charged will stealing a brothers job and suspended from work without pay. He quit the union and has had the same job for over 25 years now. As has been said before unions HAD their place a long time ago.
Your dad missed out on ALOT more $ and retirement working for a non-union company.:(

[MONEYFURNOTHIN]

I dont want to be the hot boat union rep! All im sayin is if you dont like unions, chances are your in mngmt, or an owner. If your a p.o.s in my field, you wont work, period. I agree there are alot of place unions just dont belong. But for the most part in the blue collar jobs, they increase the wages, provide health benefits, and provide a safe work place. Did i mention they protect us from greedy as millionair owners who would replace us in second for an 8 dollar in hour un qualified lazy pos if they could. Ill take the highly trained, safe working, union employee. To each there own. See you out on the water.

[WetWillie]

A UNION job or a SCAB job.:)
Is that what we call a non union job? SCAB's??: jawdrop:

[XtrmWakeborder]

[QUOTE=XtrmWakeborder;2486086]My pops told me a story of when he was in the IBEW. I guess he was working on building panels and the welder in front of him went on his union break. Well my dad wanted to go out that night and was about to start working overtime so he figured he might as well weld the panel and wire it up so he could save the company some money, help the welder out with his work, and get out to go on time. When he came back to work after the weekend he was called into the office and charged will stealing a brothers job and suspended from work without pay. He quit the union and has had the same job for over 25 years now. As has been said before unions HAD their place a long time ago.
Your dad missed out on ALOT more $ and retirement working for a non-union company.:(
Haha I doubt that, he has a pretty damn cush job for good money, and will never get fired because he knows the ins and outs. It was deffinately for the better.

[Troy McClure]

[QUOTE=Havasu1986;2486096 Ask the inspectors in So.Cal. what jobs they would rather inspect. A UNION job or a SCAB job.:)[/QUOTE]
Neither. A job run by a respectable Contractor is what they would prefer to inspect. Unions have NOTHING to do with quality. AGAIN, quit listening to your Rep.

[RT21]

Looks to me like quite a few people posting hate for unions probably got snubbed or was not allowed to join one in the past. IMHO

[Troy McClure]

Looks to me like quite a few people posting hate for unions probably got snubbed or was not allowed to join one in the past. IMHO
That's funny.
Never needed a crutch here.

[WetWillie]

Do they turn anyone away??? :idea:
Looks to me like quite a few people posting hate for unions probably got snubbed or was not allowed to join one in the past. IMHO

[MONEYFURNOTHIN]

Re-read my post, I said almost every State either DOES or WOULD offer incentives. Exchange rates are moot.
And i say every state doesnt, it doesnt really matter what they would do. In california, where are governor has made is fortune in entertainment, there are no tax incentives to keep filming local. I think there are only 3 states that offer tax incentives at the state level. States dont "would" they either do or they dont, and most dont. How are exchange rates moot? Take a 1000 dollars to south america and see how much its worth, then fly over to london and see what you got.

[Baja Big Dog]

I dont want to be the hot boat union rep! All im sayin is if you dont like unions, chances are your in mngmt, or an owner. If your a p.o.s in my field, you wont work, period. I agree there are alot of place unions just dont belong. But for the most part in the blue collar jobs, they increase the wages, provide health benefits, and provide a safe work place. Did i mention they protect us from greedy as millionair owners who would replace us in second for an 8 dollar in hour un qualified lazy pos if they could. Ill take the highly trained, safe working, union employee. To each there own. See you out on the water.
Millionaire owners......look at the money spent on union management, and amount of work they provide you the union worker....
8 dollar POS, wow...hard to imagine how the trained mind of the typical union guy would judge someone by how much money they are willing to work for.
Ive got scab mechanics that very few union guys could even wash the shit stains out of their shorts!!!
Thats why I love unions, they provide me with work.
Today was a good one..union worker....washed two work trucks, spent 8.5 hours, trucks looked like shit, boss was pissed both because of the production of the union superman, and the fact he couldn't say a thing to him about his performance.
I spend alot of time talking my "SCAB's" out of working for the unions, because they say they want to retire at 30!!!

[Havasu1986]

Is that what we call a non union job? SCAB's??: jawdrop:
That is what the construction industry calls them. I just finished a job in Costa Mesa called the O.C. Perfoming Arts Center with the Fluor Co. The $ was funded partly by Henry Segerstrom. The guy that ownes the South Coast Plaza and plenty of land. This was from the start to be a all UNION job to make sure the quality and work would be done at the highest level. If he was building a Walmart I'm sure he would have went the SCAP route.:(

[Troy McClure]

And i say every state doesnt, it doesnt really matter what they would do. In california, where are governor has made is fortune in entertainment, there are no tax incentives to keep filming local. I think there are only 3 states that offer tax incentives at the state level. States dont "would" they either do or they dont, and most dont. How are exchange rates moot? Take a 1000 dollars to south america and see how much its worth, then fly over to london and see what you got.
You're absolutely right, I can't argue with that logic. Or spelling.

[Baja Big Dog]

Do they turn anyone away??? :idea:
Not with a pulse..........:D

[Havasu1986]

Neither. A job run by a respectable Contractor is what they would prefer to inspect. Unions have NOTHING to do with quality. AGAIN, quit listening to your Rep.
I never talk to my Union rep. I talk to the inspectors in the field because they are the ones costing me $ when there is problems in the field.

[Baja Big Dog]

Sounds like really week mngmt to me! What a p.o.s
Weak (week?) managment, missed the whole point, managment has nothing to do with it, would they like to shit can the guy? I think the point I was making is YES!! HOLY CRIST!!!

[RT21]

Its an elite club guys, dont feel bad. Keep trying and someday you too just might get in. Then you will have a different (correct) opinion.

[brianwhiteboy]

I dont want to be the hot boat union rep! All im sayin is if you dont like unions, chances are your in mngmt, or an owner. If your a p.o.s in my field, you wont work, period. I agree there are alot of place unions just dont belong. But for the most part in the blue collar jobs, they increase the wages, provide health benefits, and provide a safe work place. Did i mention they protect us from greedy as millionair owners who would replace us in second for an 8 dollar in hour un qualified lazy pos if they could. Ill take the highly trained, safe working, union employee. To each there own. See you out on the water.
your absolutely right! Most people that are anti-union probably are owners or are in mgmt. I mean why else would anybody be against making a decent living with medical benefits and a pension??? Unless your the one having to pay for it.
The point is that most of us are worker bees - not owners. We live in a day and age where prices are going up faster than our wages. Is it really OK for companies like Walmart that are making millions upon millions of $$ to only pay there employees the bare minimum with no medical benefits? Do they earn a pension? Would you work for that? Could you live on that? The answer is NO. But for some person who has just come to this country that might be all they could ever ask for.
I understand that things are probably a lot different back east where the majority of work is union and you get a lot of slacking off because of it. But out here in California, unions are the minority. We have to kick ass and be competitive, otherwise we don't work... and we certainly deserve every penny we earn, which by the way is not that much.

[MONEYFURNOTHIN]

Millionaire owners......look at the money spent on union management, and amount of work they provide you the union worker....
8 dollar POS, wow...hard to imagine how the trained mind of the typical union guy would judge someone by how much money they are willing to work for.
Ive got scab mechanics that very few union guys could even wash the shit stains out of their shorts!!!
Thats why I love unions, they provide me with work.
Today was a good one..union worker....washed two work trucks, spent 8.5 hours, trucks looked like shit, boss was pissed both because of the production of the union superman, and the fact he couldn't say a thing to him about his performance.
I spend alot of time talking my "SCAB's" out of working for the unions, because they say they want to retire at 30!!!
another place unions dont belong. Dont get your panties in a wad, this is a boating website and were just shooting the breeze. Im not saying there are not good workers who are not union. Im just saying in general in the blue collar feild, unions protect the best intrest of the workers.

[Troy McClure]

That is what the construction industry calls them. I just finished a job in Costa Mesa called the O.C. Perfoming Arts Center with the Fluor Co. The $ was funded partly by Henry Segerstrom. The guy that ownes the South Coast Plaza and plenty of land. This was from the start to be a all UNION job to make sure the quality and work would be done at the highest level. If he was building a Walmart I'm sure he would have went the SCAP route.:(
It was a Union job because of the publicity the Unions would have created. That's it. Nothing to do with quality.

[Baja Big Dog]

another place unions dont belong. Dont get your panties in a wad, this is a boating website and were just shooting the breeze. Im not saying there are not good workers who are not union. Im just saying in general in the blue collar feild, unions protect the best intrest of the workers.
I go commando:D

[MONEYFURNOTHIN]

LOL, well bring your commando ass down to havi this weekend and ill buy you a beer. We can talk about boats and debate fake tits or real!

[Troy McClure]

Is it really OK for companies like Walmart that are making millions upon millions of $$ to only pay there employees the bare minimum with no medical benefits? Do they earn a pension? Would you work for that?
You're misinformed. Read up on Walmart and see if their employees have no medical benefits. You might be a little surprised that what you find out is not what 'people" have told you.

[Baja Big Dog]

LOL, well bring your commando ass down to havi this weekend and ill buy you a beer. We can talk about boats and debate fake tits or real!
Done deal...Ill have the race pontoon out tomorrow (26mph on gps) and the unbelievably fast 350 powered Biesemeyer out on Sat.........:D :)

[Havasu1986]

Ok. Here is perfect example of a union/non-union family
Wife: Works for a family owned machine shop with great pay, but little medical and no retirement. Waiting on Social Security.
Me: Works for UNION company. Great pay, full benefits thru retirement. $4k a month when I retire and $600k in a 401 to date with 8 years to go. You do the math.:)

[MONEYFURNOTHIN]

You're misinformed. Read up on Walmart and see if their employees have no medical benefits. You might be a little surprised that what you find out is not what 'people" have told you.
Since you know so much why dont you save us union guys the time and just tell us

[MONEYFURNOTHIN]

Done deal...Ill have the race pontoon out tomorrow (26mph on gps) and the unbelievably fast 350 powered Biesemeyer out on Sat.........:D :)
Ill be out there tommorow about 11a on the water. Ill be in my non union built dcb!

[Havasu1986]

It was a Union job because of the publicity the Unions would have created. That's it. Nothing to do with quality.
You must have never spent a day in the construction field.:(

[TBONE1904]

"If your not good, not productive, and want raises based on time not performance" - what a joke. This would apply to ALL of the American workforce, not just unions.
And as for being over paid - that's pretty funny... because most of the guys I work with couldn't even afford to buy a house, even with their wife working. I don't see union guys having anymore then the next guy, but if they do, then maybe you should tell us where they work so that we can all join in and make some $$$!
Come to SD, there are plenty of private contractors looking to pay dollars for quality employees. Read the tone of the post. Over paid for what they are worth to a private company. Here is the solution to the "underpaid" union workers, go non union!. If you are good , find a good private company. You will get benefits, pensions, 401k, health, dental,etc. I don't get it, why would you stay in a union if you guy aren't making enough money?

[WetWillie]

That is what the construction industry calls them. I just finished a job in Costa Mesa called the O.C. Perfoming Arts Center with the Fluor Co. The $ was funded partly by Henry Segerstrom. The guy that ownes the South Coast Plaza and plenty of land. This was from the start to be a all UNION job to make sure the quality and work would be done at the highest level. If he was building a Walmart I'm sure he would have went the SCAP route.:(
In my business I have never come across a union shop that does the quality of work that we do! I am being perfectly honest. I would REALLY like to see it if you can find it. I have worked with plenty of Union contractors and there are plenty of turds on both sides union and non union.
I pay my guys well because they deserve it they do good work and make me money!!! Not because they are in some group and may all threaten to quit or worked xx on hours or got hired at the same time as the other guy!!

[beerjet]

1. Absolutly none of this applies to the construction trade .
2. Troy has no idea what he's talking about .

[TBONE1904]

Ok. Here is perfect example of a union/non-union family
Wife: Works for a family owned machine shop with great pay, but little medical and no retirement. Waiting on Social Security.
Me: Works for UNION company. Great pay, full benefits thru retirement. $4k a month when I retire and $600k in a 401 to date with 8 years to go. You do the math.:)
Not trying to be a dick, but invest the "great pay". There are many ways to put the "great pay" to work for you now and in the future. It is just like taxes, there is a time value on money!

[MONEYFURNOTHIN]

In my business I have never come across a union shop that does the quality of work that we do! I am being perfectly honest. I would REALLY like to see it if you can find it. I have worked with plenty of Union contractors and there are plenty of turds on both sides union and non union.
I pay my guys well because they deserve it they do good work and make me money!!! Not because they are in some group and may all threaten to quit or worked xx on hours or got hired at the same time as the other guy!!
I feel like your not taking shots at me because im a kool aid club member!

[MONEYFURNOTHIN]

Every time troy says something stupid, i reach up and pull a nose hair out! Im currently breathing well but feel like im sitting underneath a barbers chair!

[WetWillie]

I feel like your not taking shots at me because im a kool aid club member!
I agree with you. There may be a few places were unions are good! I personally dont know of any.. But there may be!!:)
I just wish if someone wants to use a Union Company based on the fact that they believe they do superior work then so be it!! But this scare tactic intimidation Bullshi% is for the birds. Dont hold an area, town, building HOSTAGE PERIOD!
EARN WHAT YOU DESERVE!!!! WORK FOR EVERYTHING YOU GET!!!
Thats my oppinion..
The fact you own a DCB amazes me... I thought you union guys were all stiffs.:D

[WetWillie]

:D
Every time troy says something stupid, i reach up and pull a nose hair out! Im currently breathing well but feel like im sitting underneath a barbers chair!

[TBONE1904]

your absolutely right! Most people that are anti-union probably are owners or are in mgmt. I mean why else would anybody be against making a decent living with medical benefits and a pension??? Unless your the one having to pay for it.
The point is that most of us are worker bees - not owners. We live in a day and age where prices are going up faster than our wages. Is it really OK for companies like Walmart that are making millions upon millions of $$ to only pay there employees the bare minimum with no medical benefits? Do they earn a pension? Would you work for that? Could you live on that? The answer is NO. But for some person who has just come to this country that might be all they could ever ask for.
I understand that things are probably a lot different back east where the majority of work is union and you get a lot of slacking off because of it. But out here in California, unions are the minority. We have to kick ass and be competitive, otherwise we don't work... and we certainly deserve every penny we earn, which by the way is not that much.
After responding to your comment I read you're earlier piece. Dude please...I feel like I make good money, and can't come close to owning 75% of the boats people own on this site. I don't agree with your worker bee statement. Yes there are some very talented people on this site, however what does that have to do with the union? I bet less than 20% of the people on this site are in the union. Hey I will be honest if I had enough capitol to compete with Walmart I would start a retail buisness now. How are you going to talk smack about an idea someone had that made him millons. The mind is MORE lucrative than the body.

[MONEYFURNOTHIN]

I agree with you. There may be a few places were unions are good! I personally dont know of any.. But there may be!!:)
I just wish if someone wants to use a Union Company based on the fact that they believe they do superior work then so be it!! But this scare tactic intimidation Bullshi% is for the birds. Dont hold an area, town, building HOSTAGE PERIOD!
EARN WHAT YOU DESERVE!!!! WORK FOR EVERYTHING YOU GET!!!
Thats my oppinion..
The fact you own a DCB amazes me... I thought you union guys were all stiffs.:D
The fact that i own a DCB amazes me to! In all fairness it is the baby ballers edition!

[MONEYFURNOTHIN]

Unions had there time, state and federal labor laws protect todays work force greater than any of the original union workers could have ever hoped for. They are a slow moving cancer throughout our nation, look what they have done to the american automobile industry, or the bang up job they've done with our education system, anybody been to the DMV lately. Eventually they will destroy every industry that they touch. The teachers union is the worst, not only do the bring things like tenure, but they have completely entrenched themselves in our political system.
I agree that federal labor laws have decreased the need for union representation in some fields. However, labor laws dont say an electrician should make X amount of dollars and have health benefits. They are more on the lines of providing a safe work place. Please elaborate what unions have "done" to the auto industry. How are unions to blame for our public education system?

[Dan Lorenze]

I'm in the local 600 camera union. I get my own jobs on shows, the union has NOTHING to do with putting me ahead of another person or getting me jobs, if I suck, I don't work, period... All the union really does is keep producers honest and give us great benefits with a retirement program (that I pay into). I can understand why some of you might have your opinions on the subject but it's not as bad as you might think. I hear so many stories about fat,lazy union workers getting work only because their union protects them, it's the farthest thing from the truth in my industry...

[djunkie]

Ya!!!!!!!! Unions suck!!!! :devil: :devil: :devil:

[DAVEO]

you show me a non union floor installer that can retire(sp)after working 25 years and not have to worry about how am I going to make my house payment for the rest of there lives. I will go work for them. Right know we are having members retiring(sp)at 45 years old making anywhere from 5k to 7k a month. Depending on how many hour they worked for the 25 years. Not all unions are the same and everyone has a right to beleve what they want. But for me Im staying in my union.
DC16
LOCAL 12
Northern california

[WetWillie]

When you say floor installer what is that? What kind of wage would this person be making per hour and how much are they putting away per month??
Were do you find customers that let you charge them $75 an hour to do this?? After they pay you and then the union and then into your retirment thats what what they would have to charge???
you show me a non union floor installer that can retire(sp)after working 25 years and not have to worry about how am I going to make my house payment for the rest of there lives. I will go work for them. Right know we are having members retiring(sp)at 45 years old making anywhere from 5k to 7k a month. Depending on how many hour they worked for the 25 years. Not all unions are the same and everyone has a right to beleve what they want. But for me Im staying in my union.
DC16
LOCAL 12
Northern california

[uselessgrant]

im getting aggrivated (spelling) at all of this. i am a union carhauler in kc. mo. for ford and many of the car companies have switched to non union companies for a while but... the union companies usually seem to get the work back.. quality people quality. yes i get paid well but we are on piece work not by the hour.. if i dont work i dont make money. over 6000 cars hauled in the last year to date 0 damages. I know what the fock im doing the scab haulers dont ... do you people want your new f350 crew cab 4x4 powerstroke king ranch that list for 55000 to get a scratch or a dent on it? no i dont think so. it does happen with us but not as often cause we want to protect our work and incomes. TEAMSTER LOCAL 41 KCMO AND PROUD OF IT. by the way it was my local and the mafia that built Las Vegas. watch CASINO AND you will see.:D

[707dog]

Iv Was In The Ibew 302 For Almost 7yrs..i Got No Complaints Union Helped Me Learn Alot(5yrs Of School And Ojt) And I Do Know For A Fact If You Wasnt Bustin Ya Azz You Didnt Work Period..it Was Back To The Books..i Know Cause I Had My Moment Of Being A Slacker...lmao...everything Has Its Pro's And Cons But Its Friday And Im Sure Most Of Us Are On Somebody Else's Time So Get Back To Work slackers....before I Have On Of My Relitives Come Do Your Job For $5 A Hr...that Was Joke Fokers...:d

[LAND_LOVER69]

I worked for a trucking company over here in MD. The owner (who by the way is a VERY respectable man) caught wind that his drivers were looking into a union. He pulled every employee into a meeting and told us that if we got a union in his company he would shut the place down for a few months and reopen it under his wifes name. Needless to say the thought of a union went away very quick! :D

[OGShocker]

I would love to know where you getting your info? Only a few states in the us offer isncentives. Canadian labor rates are almost identical. It use to be alot cheaper because of the exchange difference, but now that the money is almost the same, there is not much savings in labor. Thats why hollywood is pumping again.
I bet he gets his information from a different place than you get your Speel Chicker progrem. His information seems to be spot on.
Have a nice day,
OGS

[HammerDown]

Several years back I was a Union Car Hauler for Lease way Transport and Allied (Teamster) and yes...the Union was NEEDED!
Are some Unions bad, sure but so are hundreds of non-Union Companies.
Circuit City is dumping a lot of their long time employees for the sole reason they earned too much...WTF...and will hire new employees so they can pay them less. A good Union would NOT let this happen!

[OGShocker]

Ya!!!!!!!! Unions suck!!!! :devil: :devil: :devil:
Does this mean RD is in the Union?;)

[shueman]

Unions had their time and place when America was developing and was more of an industrialized nation. Protection for the workers and some assurance that you were getting a "journeyman" that knows his/her stuff on the job.
It was also a very different social-economic climate. You worked the same job/industry and retired with a pension and medical; that's the way it was. Today, we are much more serviced based within a world economy...totally different all together.
Trade Unions are still needed, but not Service Unions.

[THOR]

I always love this debate. It is the same old song and dance that have scabs ragging on union guys.
I cant opine about the auto industry and unions, but I can tell you from first hand experience that non union jobs are significantly less safer than union jobs. Union workers are trained and educated to do their jobs (for the most part).
There are some things about unions I dont agree with, but there are many I do. For instance, truck drivers in the teamsters are not allowed to fill their trucks with diesel fuel. In addition, if a forklift is in their way, they cannot move it, they have to have one of the guys in the operating engineers to do it. That kind of stuff is just plain stupid. But, large commercial jobs are all union because they have to be in order to keep guys safe.

[Mrs. Bordsmnj]

The unions debate threads make my blood boil. My husband is a Union electrician and works his ass off. For you to call him lazy, stupid, etc. just because he is in the union really pisses me off. I would bet he works harder and is smarter than any of you morons.
Just because some people are union, does not make them freeloading idiots. There are slackers in every company out there, union or not.
:mad:

[THOR]

My husband is a Union electrician and works his ass off. For you to call him lazy, stupid, etc. just because he is in the union really pisses me off. I would bet he works harder and is smarter than any of you morons.
Just because some people are union, does not make them freeloading idiots. There are slackers in every company out there, union or not.
:mad:
Hmmmmmmmm, I said the same thing on a few of these threads and got reamed for it. I agree, most union guys in the trade professions work very, very hard.

[HammerDown]

There are some things about unions I dont agree with, but there are many I do. For instance, truck drivers in the teamsters are not allowed to fill their trucks with diesel fuel. .
Don't know what part of the Country/Union you're talking about but...up until a few years back I was a Teamster for almost 20 years and yes I ALWAYS fueled, added oil etc to my Equiptment.

[Mrs. Bordsmnj]

Hmmmmmmmm, I said the same thing on a few of these threads and got reamed for it. I agree, most union guys in the trade professions work very, very hard.
Oh, I am sure I will get reamed too. :rolleyes: :D
I just cannot tolerate when people consider union workers slackers and morons. Like I said, I do not know anyone who works harder than my hubby. And we have a nice life too. We have the house, the toys, great medical, and he EARNED it. ;)

[THOR]

Don't know what part of the Country/Union you're talking about but...up until a few years back I was a Teamster for almost 20 years and yes I ALWAYS fueled, added oil etc to my Equiptment.
This was a buddy of mine that worked at Pepsi in Orange County. We are all f'up out here. ;)

[HammerDown]

Hmmmmmmmm, I said the same thing on a few of these threads and got reamed for it. I agree, most union guys in the trade professions work very, very hard.
Ya got that right, most if not aLL Union Tradesmen must hustle or they very well may sit on the bench looking for work. No shop/Contractor will use them.

[Jbb]

I am a member of multiple unions......I enjoy bustin scab knee caps....It's a good form of excersize...:rolleyes:
I brought this whole....union bashing drama thread nonsense up at the meeting ........a consensus was formed............The union said.....RD SUX!...
:D :D

[Boozer]

Several years back I was a Union Car Hauler for Lease way Transport and Allied (Teamster) and yes...the Union was NEEDED!
Are some Unions bad, sure but so are hundreds of non-Union Companies.
Circuit City is dumping a lot of their long time employees for the sole reason they earned too much...WTF...and will hire new employees so they can pay them less. A good Union would NOT let this happen!
So let's put this into a different light.
Circuit City is dumping a lot of their long term employees because they are making to much money. With several Big Box competitors now out there taking a good portion of the market share Circuit City has to make cuts that will allow it to remain competitive.
Circuit City is faced with 3 choices. Choice 1. keep the long term employees but ask them to take a pay cut. Choice 2. Dump those long term employees and hire new staff at a lesser wage. Choice 3. Keep the current staff at their current wages. If you go with choice 1 many will quit and those who stay will most likely lower their job performance because they will fill like they are not getting what they are worth and only give the company what they fell the company deserves, leading to poor job performance and bad customer service. If you go with choice 2 you get fresh people, fresh ideas, and people who aren't use to making top dollar for their performance so they will work their tails off in hopes of one day making top dollar for their performance. If you go with choice 3 Circuit City then becomes overpriced and non competitive meaning they will have to close down tons of stores and there will be less jobs on the job market.
2 times in my career I have been told by my employer that I was overpaid and my commission plan was changing. Most recently my pay was cut by 70%. I went from 10K a month to 3K a month and was actually doing more volume to make the 3K then I did to make the 10K. Rather then bitch about it I found a new employer that pays me what I am worth and no union reps were needed in order for me to do so. My employer at that time had to what was in their best interest and I did what is in mine. No hard feelings on the part of either party.

[Mrs. Bordsmnj]

So let's put this into a different light.
Circuit City is dumping a lot of their long term employees because they are making to much money. With several Big Box competitors now out there taking a good portion of the market share Circuit City has to make cuts that will allow it to remain competitive.
Circuit City is faced with 3 choices. Choice 1. keep the long term employees but ask them to take a pay cut. Choice 2. Dump those long term employees and hire new staff at a lesser wage. Choice 3. Keep the current staff at their current wages. If you go with choice 1 many will quit and those who stay will most likely lower their job performance because they will fill like they are not getting what they are worth and only give the company what they fell the company deserves, leading to poor job performance and bad customer service. If you go with choice 2 you get fresh people, fresh ideas, and people who aren't use to making top dollar for their performance so they will work their tails off in hopes of one day making top dollar for their performance. If you go with choice 3 Circuit City then becomes overpriced and non competitive meaning they will have to close down tons of stores and there will be less jobs on the job market.
2 times in my career I have been told by my employer that I was overpaid and my commission plan was changing. Most recently my pay was cut by 70%. I went from 10K a month to 3K a month and was actually doing more volume to make the 3K then I did to make the 10K. Rather then bitch about it I found a new employer that pays me what I am worth and no union reps were needed in order for me to do so. My employer at that time had to what was in their best interest and I did what is in mine. No hard feelings on the part of either party.
I don't even understand what purpose a union would have in the sales field?? :confused:

[Jbb]

If you go with choice 2 you get fresh people, fresh ideas, and people who aren't use to making top dollar for their performance so they will work their tails off in hopes of one day making top dollar for their performance.
So that one day ....they can be replaced too......The circle of life is complete.....:D

[HammerDown]

So let's put this into a different light.
Circuit City is dumping a lot of their long term employees because they are making to much money. With several Big Box competitors now out there taking a good portion of the market share Circuit City has to make cuts that will allow it to remain competitive.
Circuit City is faced with 3 choices. Choice 1. keep the long term employees but ask them to take a pay cut. Choice 2. Dump those long term employees and hire new staff at a lesser wage. Choice 3. Keep the current staff at their current wages. If you go with choice 1 many will quit and those who stay will most likely lower their job performance because they will fill like they are not getting what they are worth and only give the company what they fell the company deserves, leading to poor job performance and bad customer service. If you go with choice 2 you get fresh people, fresh ideas, and people who aren't use to making top dollar for their performance so they will work their tails off in hopes of one day making top dollar for their performance. If you go with choice 3 Circuit City then becomes overpriced and non competitive meaning they will have to close down tons of stores and there will be less jobs on the job market.
.
You forgot choice #4... ask the overpaid CEO's and upper management to take a bonus/pay cut. (fat chance of that):rolleyes:
This way the companies can keep their hard working loyal employees that stood behind their place of employment...for so long.

[Baja Big Dog]

Oh, I am sure I will get reamed too. :rolleyes: :D
I just cannot tolerate when people consider union workers slackers and morons. Like I said, I do not know anyone who works harder than my hubby. And we have a nice life too. We have the house, the toys, great medical, and he EARNED it. ;)
Hey Mrs. ...ask your "hubby" how many slackers he works with, is the exception rather than the rule.??

[Baja Big Dog]

You forgot choice #4... ask the overpaid CEO's and upper management to take a bonus/pay cut. (fat chance of that):rolleyes:
This way the companies can keep their hard working loyal employees that stood behind their place of employment...for so long.
This one is clasic...thank god the unions dont have any overpaid, underworked fat cat management to deal with, and thank god you loyal union guys dont pay their wages???

[Havasu1986]

Oh, I am sure I will get reamed too. :rolleyes: :D
I just cannot tolerate when people consider union workers slackers and morons. Like I said, I do not know anyone who works harder than my hubby. And we have a nice life too. We have the house, the toys, great medical, and he EARNED it. ;)
We get rid of these type of workers at my union company. That is why they are always out of work. And the union reps know who they are. And can't do a thing about it.

[HammerDown]

This one is clasic...thank god the unions dont have any overpaid, underworked fat cat management to deal with, and thank god you loyal union guys dont pay their wages???
Either way ya look at it...were all F'ed :D

[Mrs. Bordsmnj]

Hey Mrs. ...ask your "hubby" how many slackers he works with, is the exception rather than the rule.??
I would say not alot. The "slackers" are sent back to the hall and replaced with guys who want to work and have a clue. ;)
And to be honest, I really only care about my husband, not the other guys in the shop.
My point to all of this is just that there are skilled, hard working people out there that benefit from being part of a union. And being part of a union does not automatically make them a loser-slacker!
:)

[HM]

The only union I am in favor of is mawage. Oh, and pipe fittings.

[HammerDown]

The only union I am in favor of is mawage. Oh, and pipe fittings.
Union Pipe Fitters/Steam Fitters...now they make a nice dollar strong Union also !;)

[a catered life]

not talking about all unions but i am in management and all of my workers are teamsters and it sucks....they have built up such a wall of bullshit in this district that it is impossible to fire, lay-off, suspend, or even write up any one....
here's an example of a bad union i have an employee that made a sexual comment to a teacher and used fowl langauge towards another union member in the same day...i was briefed on the situition and disscussed the problem with all parties...i worte up the employee and had a meeting with her and my director...we sent the paperwork down town to be put in her personel file and her union lawyer said the write up was illegal and could not be put in to her file....at this point i was mad because the other union member that was cursed at now was changing his story to benefit his fellow union member...finally the lawyer said because we did not give her the chance to respond to the allegations in five days in writing this write up hold no merit:mad:
another worker was caught stealing (while she was off work on a IA claim) and was suspended for 45 days wtf:mad: then she had the nerve to sue the district for back pay the days she was suspended:eek: with the support of the union

[Trailer Park Casanova]

Union Pipe Fitters/Steam Fitters...now they make a nice dollar strong Union also !;)
We handed out onion cards and voted the onion in and the pipefitters and steamfitters union walked out with us on our first strike, and backed us 100 % and they all took a huge pay hit.
They showed us what balls are.
Worked with a onion and without an onion on the same job and in the long run, if you have a good skill, you should be onion.
if you have no skills, and you have an onion,, then strike at your own peril.
Wifes work just voted in the onion, and her pay jumped 14%, and she got a pension plan in the deal too. That's a payment on a 26' Ultra deck with the big in'jin.
NFW she's would have got any of that,, she didn't in 16 years non-onion there.
Stick up for yourself, get the most out of your skills, vote onion, support the boating industry.

[HM]

We handed out onion cards and voted the onion in and the pipefitters and steamfitters union walked out with us on our first strike, and backed us 100 % and they all took a huge pay hit.
They showed us what balls are.
Worked with a onion and without an onion on the same job and in the long run, if you have a good skill, you should be onion.
if you have no skills, and you have an onion,, then strike at your own peril.
Wifes work just voted in the onion, and her pay jumped 14%, and she got a pension plan in the deal too. That's a payment on a 26' Ultra deck with the big in'jin.
NFW she's would have got any of that,, she didn't in 16 years non-onion there.
Stick up for yourself, get the most out of your skills, vote onion, support the boating industry.
Personally, I prefer grilled onions.

[LGCDEVIL]

We handed out onion cards and voted the onion in and the pipefitters and steamfitters union walked out with us on our first strike, and backed us 100 % and they all took a huge pay hit.
They showed us what balls are.
Worked with a onion and without an onion on the same job and in the long run, if you have a good skill, you should be onion.
if you have no skills, and you have an onion,, then strike at your own peril.
Wifes work just voted in the onion, and her pay jumped 14%, and she got a pension plan in the deal too. That's a payment on a 26' Ultra deck with the big in'jin.
NFW she's would have got any of that,, she didn't in 16 years non-onion there.
Stick up for yourself, get the most out of your skills, vote onion, support the boating industry.
ONIONS SUCK!!!!!http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/Red-Onion-Pg-5.jpg

[Baja Big Dog]

We handed out onion cards and voted the onion in and the pipefitters and steamfitters union walked out with us on our first strike, and backed us 100 % and they all took a huge pay hit.
They showed us what balls are.
Worked with a onion and without an onion on the same job and in the long run, if you have a good skill, you should be onion.
if you have no skills, and you have an onion,, then strike at your own peril.
Wifes work just voted in the onion, and her pay jumped 14%, and she got a pension plan in the deal too. That's a payment on a 26' Ultra deck with the big in'jin.
NFW she's would have got any of that,, she didn't in 16 years non-onion there.
Stick up for yourself, get the most out of your skills, vote onion, support the boating industry.
WTF...Ive read this twice, what the fock are you talking about? What is the onion thing?
You proved the point that many folks here are making. Your wife just got a 14% raise because of the onion, did her productivity go up? Doubtful. Did her skill level go up? Doubtful. Did the cost of the final product or service go up 14%? Doubtful.
I will say that I would like to have her job, if her pay went up 14% (she will clear maybe 10%) and that will make a $1000 a month payment, then she is making over 120k a year!! Not bad.

[Baja Big Dog]

ONIONS SUCK!!!!!http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/Red-Onion-Pg-5.jpg
Wonder how much that onion would cost if the union picked it..LMAO..:D

[speedneeder]

I still believe unions have their place. Certainly in the building trades. The unions provide apprenticeship programs to help create skilled labor. Slackers? I think you have the small percentage everywhere; union or non union. You will always have the a, b,c and unfortunatley some d players. Watch the unions disappear and watch the wages, job conditions, and benefits decrease.
Most of you will probably begin complaining about the border brother that screwed up your project and why arent americans doing this work. Its hard to have it both ways. I work in Mangement for a large union electrical contractor. Neither the contractor, the union, or the hard working guys on the jobs want the slackers on their project and get them off the job as soon as they can.

[DAVEO]

When you say floor installer what is that? What kind of wage would this person be making per hour and how much are they putting away per month??
Were do you find customers that let you charge them $75 an hour to do this?? After they pay you and then the union and then into your retirment thats what what they would have to charge???
What is a foor installer no wonder you are non union. We install flooring all types. Not everyone in my union will get a retirement like this, only the ones that work there azz off and are good at installing. Iff your not good you will stay in the out of work list in the hall. If you are good at what you do you can earn a retirement like the on Ive posted.
2000 hours per year at 6.55 per hour paid by member and 50% added by co. at a return of 5% x 25 years. You do the math.

[DAVEO]

Hmmmmmmmm, I said the same thing on a few of these threads and got reamed for it. I agree, most union guys in the trade professions work very, very hard.
I cant agree more.

[Debbolas]

Unions had their place when companies took advantage of their employees.
With our current laws that is just about impossible. I don't think unions serve a purpose in todays society.
Keep in mind I was picketing KABC radio with my dads union when I was nine years old ;)

[Havasu1986]

Unions had their place when companies took advantage of their employees.
With our current laws that is just about impossible. I don't think unions serve a purpose in todays society.
Keep in mind I was picketing KABC radio with my dads union when I was nine years old ;)
My company is a all union fire sprinkler company including our shop. The guys in the field have to go thru 5 years of apprentice training in the class room and in the field. They get a report card filled out by the foremen they are working with. If they don't pass in the class room or field they are kicked out. We have been around for 35 years and will never go the non union route. I rather call the hall if I need more help. It beats going to Home Depot and rounding up a bunch of illegals.:)

[Debbolas]

My company is a all union fire sprinkler company including our shop. The guys in the field have to go thru 5 years of apprentice training in the class room and in the field. They get a report card filled out by the foremen they are working with. If they don't pass in the class room or field they are kicked out. We have been around for 35 years and will never go the non union route. I rather call the hall if I need more help. It beats going to Home Depot and rounding up a bunch of illegals.:)
I understand that most people in unions like them. But you have to admit there are many unions that take advantage.
I think unions best served Americans many years ago when there was a Company town and a Company store and you were stuck with what they gave you.

[DAVEO]

Unions had their place when companies took advantage of their employees.
With our current laws that is just about impossible. I don't think unions serve a purpose in todays society.
Keep in mind I was picketing KABC radio with my dads union when I was nine years old ;)
If unions were gone then it would go back to the companies taking advantage of the workers agian. We need the unions to set the standards of all working people. Thats how all these laws you talk about came into effect union members fighting for there rights as a working person.

[Havasu1986]

I understand that most people in unions like them. But you have to admit there are many unions that take advantage.
I think unions best served Americans many years ago when there was a Company town and a Company store and you were stuck with what they gave you.
I agree in some unions. But when I got in in 82'. I was only 22 just starting out and at the orientation the guy tells us that we will have a pension for how many year we put in and that there putting 50 cents a hour of our money into a seperate pension. Well now we put in 6.50 a hour of our money not the companys and I have over 535K in it. :)

[Debbolas]

If unions were gone then it would go back to the companies taking advantage of the workers agian. We need the unions to set the standards of all working people. Thats how all these laws you talk about came into effect union members fighting for there rights as a working person.
I guess I'm just thinking about all the teachers that shouldn't be teaching.....The principal knows it, the other teachers know it, the parents know it.......but because of her union, we are stuck paying h er $70,000 a year to terrorize kids. (that pisses me off:()
and the poor supermarket union members had their hats handed to them...all that striking and then a bad settlement.
I have a really good friend who was/is and iron worker and he LOVED his union. I guess I can see the purpose for a union in a dangerous field, you want your people trained before they climb that iron.

[DAVEO]

I guess I'm just thinking about all the teachers that shouldn't be teaching.....The principal knows it, the other teachers know it, the parents know it.......but because of her union, we are stuck paying h er $70,000 a year to terrorize kids. (that pisses me off:()
and the poor supermarket union members had their hats handed to them...all that striking and then a bad settlement.
I have a really good friend who was/is and iron worker and he LOVED his union. I guess I can see the purpose for a union in a dangerous field, you want your people trained before they climb that iron.
Yes I see your point. Those types of situations piss me off to.

[boater250s]

God I love this trend, it always comes around, it seems at least every six months. What I find interesting is that when a company goes out of business and is not doing well, if it's a union shop, it's the unions fault, but when it goes out of business and it is not union whos fault is it then? Someone posted that there's a bunch of slackers in unions, I've worked for union companys and non-union companys, aren't their slackers everywhere? Look within your own household, there's probably a slacker there. Someone also mentioned about the American auto companys and how the unions have distroyed these companys, but the companys have to take some responsiblity along with their stock holders. At this present time I do work for a union company which happens to be United Parcel Service, after a very good salary, vacation, medical, dental, vision, sick-leave, one of the best pentions in the country, after you reach your golden eighty (age+time with the company) this company had a gross profit of over four billion dollars last year. Yes, billion. The problem with a lot of these companys is that they are not run by confident people, and they get into our businesses that they have no business in. Companys like UPS usually get involved with what they know best-moving packages and freight. Again, it's just my opinion and two cents. Thanks.

[HammerDown]

I guess I'm just thinking about all the teachers that shouldn't be teaching.....The principal knows it, the other teachers know it, the parents know it.......but because of her union, we are stuck paying h er $70,000 a year to terrorize kids. (that pisses me off:()
Deb with all due respects...do you know how many inner City Teachers are being "terrorized" by their students!:mad:
Some of those inner city teachers (Union or not) aren't earning enough...every day, some of them take their life in their hands just walking through the door to try and teach those f'ing animals.

[Debbolas]

Deb with all due respects...do you know how many inner City Teachers are being "terrorized" by their students!:mad:
Some of those inner city teachers (Union or not) aren't earning enough...every day, some of them take their life in their hands just walking through the door to try and teach those f'ing animals.
Ok, they are awesome people and very dedicated to walk in that door and teach those kids each day.
We had this teacher who was just awful, she would tell the kids they were stupid and make fun of them. Just terrorize these little 3rd graders. There were so many complaints and our district couldn't do anything because of her union. That is wrong.

[boater250s]

Most teachers in this country aren't even unionized, if you go out to the mid-west, there are very few unionized teachers. To blame unions for the quality of the teacher, just doesn't seem reasonable to me. If you go out ot the mid-west most of these teachers are hard to fire, just because of local laws in their community but I don't think you can blame all of it on the union, the quality of our teachers and our schools comes down to two people, the parents of these children. Just my two cents.

[djunkie]

Unions had their place when companies took advantage of their employees.
With our current laws that is just about impossible. I don't think unions serve a purpose in todays society.
Keep in mind I was picketing KABC radio with my dads union when I was nine years old ;)
Think again darling. It still happens.

[djunkie]

I love these Union discussions. :D :D

[RT21]

Oh, I am sure I will get reamed too. :rolleyes: :D
I just cannot tolerate when people consider union workers slackers and morons. Like I said, I do not know anyone who works harder than my hubby. And we have a nice life too. We have the house, the toys, great medical, and he EARNED it. ;)
You tell 'em, sista!
Judging by the postings here, I would say 90% do not have a clue about the inner workings of a union. I think they are just jealous...;)

[djunkie]

You tell 'em, sista!
Judging by the postings here, I would say 90% do not have a clue about the inner workings of a union. I think they are just jealous...;)
Do you know what your getting yourself into? :D :D

[CARLSON-JET]

I wonder if this will effect how workers look at unions in the future.
With the decline of the union I wonder if the benefits will last with declining membership.
I think this union deal will get interesting in about 15-20 more years...

[RT21]

Do you know what your getting yourself into? :D :D
Uhm, no......should I be scared? :eek:

[bordsmnj]

So let's put this into a different light.
Circuit City is dumping a lot of their long term employees because they are making to much money. With several Big Box competitors now out there taking a good portion of the market share Circuit City has to make cuts that will allow it to remain competitive.
Circuit City is faced with 3 choices. Choice 1. keep the long term employees but ask them to take a pay cut. Choice 2. Dump those long term employees and hire new staff at a lesser wage. Choice 3. Keep the current staff at their current wages. If you go with choice 1 many will quit and those who stay will most likely lower their job performance because they will fill like they are not getting what they are worth and only give the company what they fell the company deserves, leading to poor job performance and bad customer service. If you go with choice 2 you get fresh people, fresh ideas, and people who aren't use to making top dollar for their performance so they will work their tails off in hopes of one day making top dollar for their performance. If you go with choice 3 Circuit City then becomes overpriced and non competitive meaning they will have to close down tons of stores and there will be less jobs on the job market.
2 times in my career I have been told by my employer that I was overpaid and my commission plan was changing. Most recently my pay was cut by 70%. I went from 10K a month to 3K a month and was actually doing more volume to make the 3K then I did to make the 10K. Rather then bitch about it I found a new employer that pays me what I am worth and no union reps were needed in order for me to do so. My employer at that time had to what was in their best interest and I did what is in mine. No hard feelings on the part of either party.
sales at circuit city is not skilled labor. thats a good job for a college kid like you. thanks for starting a union bashing thread ,lol. i hear in this thread all the same bullshit that contractors told me for years to try and disuade me from joining the union. i,thinking for myself, decided to see if the union was any less full of shit than the other guys. unions definantly have there place in todays society. and now i can tell by this thread who really has their head up their ass on this site. well gotta go to the river now. to all you union haters F@#$% @ff yuh jealous %^&*:D

[djunkie]

Uhm, no......should I be scared? :eek:
We are a minority around here unfortunately. I love it though. :D :D

[djunkie]

sales at circuit city is not skilled labor. thats a good job for a college kid like you. thanks for starting a union bashing thread ,lol. i hear in this thread all the same bullshit that contractors told me for years to try and disuade me from joining the union. i,thinking for myself, decided to see if the union was any less full of shit than the other guys. unions definantly have there place in todays society. and now i can tell by this thread who really has their head up their ass on this site. well gotta go to the river now. to all you union haters F@#$% @ff yuh jealous %^&*:D
:D :D :D

[SmokinLowriderSS]

(After several talks with people who work for union organizations and my own experience I can only arrive at one conclusion. Unions only protect those who don't deserve to have the job they have in the first place. They promote poor work ethics and harbor people who continually drain their employers. Yet they do nothing to protect those who actually NEED and DESERVE their help.
Yep, pretty much what the IAMAW (Intl Assn of Machinists and Aerospace Workers) does.
They got 11 years of my dues money, and scruitiny, while I paid attention to everything they said and did, nationally as well as locally.
A good friend of mine (who is a shop steward) was a bit shocked at the content of the letter I sent them when I resigned. He didn't try to tell me I was mistaken, he just thought it could have been less "harsh", but he knows that direct as a shot is my way.

[Cat Skinner]

Here is a challenge. Any of you union bashing know-it-alls think you can cut it in the Operating Engineers Local 3. Come on up to Nor Cal. I'll pay the $20 to get you on the C list which is for unqualified slakers and new guys. Ofcourse you'll have to pass the skills test which should be no problem for you geniuses. You hold a job for 7 days and join the union I'll pay your initiation of $1200. No bull shit. If your any good I'll give you a job. Put up or shut up time girls. PM if interested.

[DEEZ NUTTS]

What ever happened to a "how long am I gonna do this till I own the place" mentality? Why cant you take resposibility for your own retirement?
Wouldnt a non union buisiness quickly be out of buisness if it produced poorly?
Skinner, I started on a shovel 12 years ago. Didnt take long to build operating skills that couldnt or wouldnt want to be replaced by any employer. Why would a good operator need the union? You can either handle the job and stay employed or head down the road.
I can tell in 5 mins or most times less if a guy is as good as he says.

[Cat Skinner]

Give it a rest....you drive a cat...BFD....Your union ass would last about an hour one my sites......my guys would run you off.....they can even pass your skills test....they all know how to tie there shoes
Really ,
What do you do? And no i'm not DRIVING a cat these days. But I can hold my own on any spread Canatard or otherwise Skippy. I put my money where my mouth is.

[TCHB]

When a company starts to fail it is due to loss of market share not union. A good example is the American car industry. Produce low quality cars for a couple of years and guess what the market changed and people walked. Now you start cost cutting everywhere and the cycle continues downward. It is the fault of the leadership of the company that did not make the right assumptions about the market and world competition.

[Cat Skinner]

What ever happened to a "how long am I gonna do this till I own the place" mentality? Why cant you take resposibility for your own retirement?
Wouldnt a non union buisiness quickly be out of buisness if it produced poorly?
Skinner, I started on a shovel 12 years ago. Didnt take long to build operating skills that couldnt or wouldnt want to be replaced by any employer. Why would a good operator need the union? You can either handle the job and stay employed or head down the road.
I can tell in 5 mins or most times less if a guy is as good as he says.
Deez,
What happens if your owner decides to replace you with his brother-in-law who can't even hold your lunch bucket, because he's got an easy job and dosen't need a skill guy. You say ok I'll go find another job. Well I don't know how work in AZ is, but let's say it's tight. Is that fair? You did him a good job and he canned you. I think AZ is a right to work state. Do you have any recourse for wrongful termination.
Non union companys exist because they work cheap. They don't always follow safe practices and atleast up here, they can't do the same quality work. But there's always someone willing to give them a shot trying to save a buck. It usually ends badly. Not always but usually.
Up here if a guy comes out of the hall and he's no good I can work him for 2 hours and send him back without paying him because he's unqualified. If that happens three time he's out of the union.
I'm not saying that all unions work well. I'm saying that there are some that do and it is unfair to make blanket statments when you can hide behind a keyboard.
These threads always suck me in but there are still a few tradesmen on the board to hold up our end.

[DAVEO]

You go Cat Skinner.....:D

[scooooter7]

The good ol' union thread, it really is enjoyable to see so many ignorant people. Not many people really know what a labor union is all about.

[gochappy]

Here is a challenge. Any of you union bashing know-it-alls think you can cut it in the Operating Engineers Local 3. Come on up to Nor Cal. I'll pay the $20 to get you on the C list which is for unqualified slakers and new guys. Ofcourse you'll have to pass the skills test which should be no problem for you geniuses. You hold a job for 7 days and join the union I'll pay your initiation of $1200. No bull shit. If your any good I'll give you a job. Put up or shut up time girls. PM if interested.
all this animosity for $20 an hour?

[DAVEO]

all this animosity for $20 an hour?
where do you see 20$ per hour. I think it would be closer to 50$ per hour + bennys and pension.
In my trade We are at 37.65 per hour + bennys and pension.

[Cat Skinner]

all this animosity for $20 an hour?
What animosity? I'm trying to employ some motivated people who seem to think they're better than us slacker union members.:rolleyes:
So far no takers though.
$20 would be wages for a second step apprentice.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Here is a challenge. Any of you union bashing know-it-alls think you can cut it in the Operating Engineers Local 3. Come on up to Nor Cal. I'll pay the $20 to get you on the C list which is for unqualified slakers and new guys. Ofcourse you'll have to pass the skills test which should be no problem for you geniuses. You hold a job for 7 days and join the union I'll pay your initiation of $1200. No bull shit. If your any good I'll give you a job. Put up or shut up time girls. PM if interested.
Thx for the offer, but no. Done my time.
I have the skills to keep my job just fine, and the work ethic too deserve my pay rate.
I didn't mention a former plant chairman was striking with the union last October, while still working his position at the company gathering donations for a local/national charity (united way). Got paid strike pay AND by the company. Hmmmmmmmmmm
The local is doing everything they can to just let it dissapear into memory without doing anything about it.
A steward also got fired recently for making multiple phone calls on the company phone (from the plant chair's office), during the work day, to his girlfriend, IN PUERTO RICO.
They never DID get rid of him for being either a lousy electrical installer OR a lousy Function Test electrician.
20% of the reason I left was the half-truths and outright lies they (including the plant chairman himself) told to the rank & file during the contract negotiations last September. Telling the union that was what Mike found so "harsh" in my resignation letter.

[gochappy]

where do you see 20$ per hour. I think it would be closer to 50$ per hour + bennys and pension.
In my trade We are at 37.65 per hour + bennys and pension.
uh right in the second line of the quote....apparently the union doesn't offer a 4th grade reading comprehension class.

[gochappy]

What animosity? I'm trying to employ some motivated people who seem to think they're better than us slacker union members.:rolleyes:
So far no takers though.
$20 would be wages for a second step apprentice.
I really don't think they think they are better than you, I think they are in the usual group of non union guys who have been on jobs with unions....it irritates them that a slacker and a go getter who would do a good job, union or not get paid the same.....they avoid the unions because they probably do a good job at what they do and make a good wage at it without having to pay someone for that right....I am in construction and have union friends and they have told me multiple times where they have been told to work slow because its a t&m job or they put something together wrong, knowing it won't work , because they will get paid to do it a second time...thats the vision that most have of unions....for me its personal experience, so i can speak of it first hand....framers are framers union or not, both have just as much rework as the other....for some reason though, union guys always have to get in your face as to how good the union is, non union guys tell you how good they are....I'll take the guy thats proud of his own work over a guy defending a group merely for the sake of defending them, when he has no personal knowledge of the caliber of work of most he is defending. just my opinion.

[GHT]

You go Cat Skinner.....:D
Are you f'ing kidding???? Unions suck, that is... Unless you're a lazy fUk and need someone to help you keep your job when you F up...

[TCHB]

My daughters boy friend is in a union and makes out pretty good. He makes more than most people will ever make and his money has been protected until he was 18. ACTORS GUILD

[LGCDEVIL]

Deez,
What happens if your owner decides to replace you with his brother-in-law who can't even hold your lunch bucket, because he's got an easy job and dosen't need a skill guy. You say ok I'll go find another job. Well I don't know how work in AZ is, but let's say it's tight. Is that fair? You did him a good job and he canned you. I think AZ is a right to work state. Do you have any recourse for wrongful termination.
Fair? Wrongful termination? Don't be a pussy. Sack up, go to work for the owners competitor, and let the guy choke on his brother-in-law.
Work is tight? Good. Anyone worth a shit will still have work, union or non. All the rest will find a new "career".
You did him a good job and he canned you? So what. The owner of the company owes you nothing. You supplied him with (supposedly) quality labor, and you were compensated for it every week. Who decides when that arrangement ends? You? Don't think so. You want to be in that position, buy a fu**in business.

[busterbox]

Hmmm, let's see here.
I could choose non-union and make around $40,000 - $50,000 a year with minimal benefits with a rat contractor, or I could choose the union and make $75,000 - $100,000+ a year with full benefits which includes medical, dental, vision, vacation pay, retirement/pension and for good measure lets throw in the best training and educational needs in the industry - J.A.T.C.!
I'll take the union. IBEW!!!
BTW!!! If I was a lazy no good POS!!! I would be sitting on the bench at the hall. Trust me when I tell ya' if your not making any production in the field, your azz will be at the hall. Contractors pay good money for union help, and in return they get a professional employee that puts out quality work, done right the first time. Same goes for non-union, if you don't produce your down the road.
Anyway this is my first post and it has nothing to do with HB, go figure:D :D :D

[Cat Skinner]

Fair? Wrongful termination? Don't be a pussy. Sack up, go to work for the owners competitor, and let the guy choke on his brother-in-law.
Work is tight? Good. Anyone worth a shit will still have work, union or non. All the rest will find a new "career".
You did him a good job and he canned you? So what. The owner of the company owes you nothing. You supplied him with (supposedly) quality labor, and you were compensated for it every week. Who decides when that arrangement ends? You? Don't think so. You want to be in that position, buy a fu**in business.
Ok, lets say that you got fired for no good reason and he teminated your health benefits and well, pension of some kind. You were a loyal employee and your employer gave you the boot.
So you have to go home and tell your family. Your wife tells you she just found out she has breast cancer. What are you going to do now?
Why is it so wrong to have a little security?
I guess it's just the me first and f**k everyone else world that we live in. Nobody gives a shit about anyone but themselves eh? How about that guy that comes to work every day on time, does his job, works hard. Should he have to be worried about his job every day? Used to be you worked hard for your employer and he took care of you. Now you work hard, there's a merger and your out on your ass with nothing to show for your 25 years of service. Yeah I know that's the way it is. Well every ones a tough guy till they get there ass kicked then they start to think about it from another point of view.

[beerjet]

I guess I'm just thinking about all the teachers that shouldn't be teaching.....The principal knows it, the other teachers know it, the parents know it.......but because of her union, we are stuck paying h er $70,000 a year to terrorize kids. (that pisses me off:()
and the poor supermarket union members had their hats handed to them...all that striking and then a bad settlement.
I have a really good friend who was/is and iron worker and he LOVED his union. I guess I can see the purpose for a union in a dangerous field, you want your people trained before they climb that iron.
Since when and what teacher gets paid $70,000 a year. :confused:
-beerjet-
UBC- local 944

[YeLLowBoaT]

Working in the trades and as a union member... unions ( atleast for the trades) are not what they once were... being a journeymen, use to mean something... not to mention that when my grandfather retired as pres of a Labor union in CA... they made more then they do now... and that was 30 years ago.
Most unions these days are a joke and some of the civil survice unions are just fooked...
One thing I still love about the union is any contractor can go to the shop and get some one for cheaper then they could hire some one. Now if we could only kick out about 30% of the guys that can't do the job...

[vmjtc3]

It's because of unions that so called American Cars are built in Mexico or Canada....outsourceing. Union workers are unskilled and don't do sh*t....They won't even pick food in the fields....just my .02 cent....Wedge :D
Spoken like a true uneducated typical dont have a clue what the fock you are talking about jackass.
John<-------------------- proud union member IBEW local 357

[beerjet]

Ok, lets say that you got fired for no good reason and he teminated your health benefits and well, pension of some kind. You were a loyal employee and your employer gave you the boot.
So you have to go home and tell your family. Your wife tells you she just found out she has breast cancer. What are you going to do now?If your union lets that happen . Get into a diffrent trade.
Why is it so wrong to have a little security?
I guess it's just the me first and f**k everyone else world that we live in. In my personal world , yes thats how it works. If and when I kicked to the curb , I'm gonna haul ass to the next job and bust my ass there .
Nobody gives a shit about anyone but themselves eh? How about that guy that comes to work every day on time, does his job, works hard. Should he have to be worried about his job every day? Used to be you worked hard for your employer and he took care of you.
If you get into the construction trade , thats how it works
Now you work hard, there's a merger and your out on your ass with nothing to show for your 25 years of service. Yeah I know that's the way it is. Well every ones a tough guy till they get there ass kicked then they start to think about it from another point of view.
Unions still work for you . They are not there to babysit you . Work hard cover your ass , keep all your paycheck stubs and you'll get your money and your 8 hours a day . Guaranteed ! Slackers get screwed , rightully so .
-beerjet-
UBC - 944

[Havasu1986]

Working in the trades and as a union member... unions ( atleast for the trades) are not what they once were... being a journeymen, use to mean something... not to mention that when my grandfather retired as pres of a Labor union in CA... they made more then they do now... and that was 30 years ago.
Most unions these days are a joke and some of the civil survice unions are just fooked...
One thing I still love about the union is any contractor can go to the shop and get some one for cheaper then they could hire some one. Now if we could only kick out about 30% of the guys that can't do the job...
How drunk are you when you type stupib sh** like this. Your grandpa never made what the labors union is making today.:mad:

[Cat Skinner]

BJ,
You misunderstood me. I was refering to the nonunion contractor.
That is not how it works in my world. Yeah if I do somthing stupid I could be fired. But I work for a great company that understands that people make mistakes. If you make a mistake they're going to talk to you about it, give you some training to help you to be better. You don't have to be affraid for your job all the time. And guess what, you want to talk about a loyal hard working bunch.
The company, De Silva Gates, has it figured out. They pay you well, honor there union contract and in return have a dedicated work force that is always looking out for the companies best interest.
There are people that have been there for over thirty years. It's a buisness model that works. They care and that is very uncommon in the construction world.

[YeLLowBoaT]

How drunk are you when you type stupib sh** like this. Your grandpa never made what the labors union is making today.:mad:
want to bet???
I've got records to prove it...
scale right now is a hair over 23 a hour in the late 70s is was almost 30. Then again, I know nothing... I only worked for the head of the local chapter to put myself thru school... oh yeah, from 73-75 he was my grandfather apprentice... once again I have no idea what I am talking about.

[RICHARD TILL]

Live Better/work Union. A.F.L. C.I.O. :) ;) :d

[beerjet]

Live Better/work Union.
UBC - 944

[Havasu1986]

want to bet???
I've got records to prove it...
scale right now is a hair over 23 a hour in the late 70s is was almost 30. Then again, I know nothing... I only worked for the head of the local chapter to put myself thru school... oh yeah, from 73-75 he was my grandfather apprentice... once again I have no idea what I am talking about.
There is no way that scale in the 70's was over 30. You maybe thinking total package including pension and bennys. They do have a great retirement at 20 years and out no matter how old they are.:)

[YeLLowBoaT]

How drunk are you when you type stupib sh** like this. Your grandpa never made what the labors union is making today.:mad:
ok heres some numbers for you...
journeymen $23.85
base apperent( IE less then 6 months) 11.46
1 year goes to 20.08
IUPAT district 16( which is norcal and parts of NV. use to be all of CA, was changed in the 60s) (http://www.dc16iupat.org/departments/wage%20schedules/Painters/Sacramento.pdf)
now where do you want me to send you a copy of old union bilaws books???

[YeLLowBoaT]

There is no way that scale in the 70's was over 30. You maybe thinking total package including pension and bennys. They do have a great retirement at 20 years and out no matter how old they are.:)
nope, base pay... the total package now is like 45. I have would have to make a phone call to get that info...
I have several union painters in my family, I know all to well what they made and when... in the 70s painters were one of the best paying trades. Then again, back then all of the unions had a tight leash on the tools you could and could not use.
it was about 73 before they could even use a roller... and that was only for one coat of the 3.

[Havasu1986]

[QUOTE=YeLLowBoaT;2488206]ok heres some numbers for you...
journeymen $23.85
base apperent( IE less then 6 months) 11.46
1 year goes to 20.08
IUPAT district 16( which is norcal and parts of NV. use to be all of CA, was changed in the 60s) (http://www.dc16iupat.org/departments/wage%20schedules/Painters/Sacramento.pdf)
now where do you want me to send you a copy of old union bilaws books???[/QUOTe
I agree that those are the current wages of District #16. But you claimed that in the 70's they made more then today. I have the same type spread sheet for my local also.:) But alot more $$$$$:D

[YeLLowBoaT]

ok heres some
I agree that those are the current wages of District #16. But you claimed that in the 70's they made more then today. I have the same type spread sheet for my local also.:) But alot more $$$$$:D
there is a reason why I don't work do union work very often. besides I can make way more working for myself.
I've got copys of old bilaw books... kind of hard to post on the net with out a scaner :hammer2:
on a side note... a painter working for sac county makes 68k in change a year Plus great bennys... thats ~35 a hour or about 40% more then a union member.... and people wonder why I say they are over paid...( I won't even get into the quality of work or the quanity they do)

[Havasu1986]

there is a reason why I don't work do union work very often. besides I can make way more working for myself.
I've got copys of old bilaw books... kind of hard to post on the net with out a scaner :hammer2:
on a side note... a painter working for sac county makes 68k in change a year Plus great bennys... thats ~35 a hour or about 40% more then a union member.... and people wonder why I say they are over paid...( I won't even get into the quality of work or the quanity they do)
Sorry..Didn't realize you were a painter. Union painters are a different story as far as union construction go's.:( Viva Mexico

[LGCDEVIL]

Ok, lets say that you got fired for no good reason and he teminated your health benefits and well, pension of some kind. You were a loyal employee and your employer gave you the boot.
So you have to go home and tell your family. Your wife tells you she just found out she has breast cancer. What are you going to do now?
Why is it so wrong to have a little security?
I guess it's just the me first and f**k everyone else world that we live in. Nobody gives a shit about anyone but themselves eh? How about that guy that comes to work every day on time, does his job, works hard. Should he have to be worried about his job every day? Used to be you worked hard for your employer and he took care of you. Now you work hard, there's a merger and your out on your ass with nothing to show for your 25 years of service. Yeah I know that's the way it is. Well every ones a tough guy till they get there ass kicked then they start to think about it from another point of view.
Get fired for no reason? Won't happen unless you are a P.O.S. (sort of a good reason) or the employer has no work. It's construction, it happens. Workers should probably have some sort of emergency funds to get them through a couple months if this were to happen.
BTW, if you work for somebody for 25 years and have nothing to show for it, you are a dipshit.
What's so hard about taking care of your own business? What would happen to you if the union went BK or something went sideways with their investment of your pension (I know it isn't likely, but stranger things have happened)?

[DAVEO]

uh right in the second line of the quote....apparently the union doesn't offer a 4th grade reading comprehension class.
Well I dont know what they teach you but it says he will pay 20$ to put you on a list to work. not pay 20$ per hour. I think you need to slow down and breath. read slowly and think. Inow it hard but try.

[DAVEO]

Are you f'ing kidding???? Unions suck, that is... Unless you're a lazy fUk and need someone to help you keep your job when you F up...
no Im not kidding it people like you that dont know sh!t about what you say.
But say it anyway.

[GHT]

no Im not kidding it people like you that dont know sh!t about what you say.
But say it anyway.
Oh trust me, I am aware of what Unions do and don't do. I'm also aware of their "Strong Arm" tactics. There once was a need for Unions. Now they are continue to go bankrupt and expect the business owners to pay.
I don't think people are POS or stupid if they work in a Union because they are trying to get as much as they possibly can for their skills.
I have seen NUMBEROUS companies go Union only to close their doors because the "Union" didn't perform on their end of the deal. Oh, the people whom worked at the company are UNEMPLOYED...:idea:
GHT

[HM]

Are you f'ing kidding???? Unions suck, that is... Unless you're a lazy fUk and need someone to help you keep your job when you F up...
Look at GHT gettin' all contraversial, and shit.

[DAVEO]

Oh trust me, I am aware of what Unions do and don't do. I'm also aware of their "Strong Arm" tactics. There once was a need for Unions. Now they are continue to go bankrupt and expect the business owners to pay.
I don't think people are POS or stupid if they work in a Union because they are trying to get as much as they possibly can for their skills.
I have seen NUMBEROUS companies go Union only to close their doors because the "Union" didn't perform on their end of the deal. Oh, the people whom worked at the company are UNEMPLOYED...:idea:
GHT
There is no strong arm anymore that was a long time ago. Companies going out of bussiness because of a union no. Bad bussiness practices or they try and not pay there share and get sued for fraud. and if the people are unemployed then they are not good enough to keep working. In my feild you slack you dont work. we are requierd to install a min. yardage a day and if not we are history. Like Ive said before in other threads like this is to each his own. You dont like unions I do. Works for me not you. We understand that.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

If unions were gone then it would go back to the companies taking advantage of the workers agian. We need the unions to set the standards of all working people. Thats how all these laws you talk about came into effect union members fighting for there rights as a working person.
Wrong. Virtually all of the "old days" taking advantage have been made illegal by Federal Laws, often pushed by the unions, back then. Now, turns out they put themselves out of usefulness.

[Debbolas]

Since when and what teacher gets paid $70,000 a year. :confused:
-beerjet-
UBC- local 944
If you hold a masters degree and have worked in the district for 30 years.
(this is an elementary school)

[DAVEO]

Wrong. Virtually all of the "old days" taking advantage have been made illegal by Federal Laws, often pushed by the unions, back then. Now, turns out they put themselves out of usefulness.
so you dont think that if the unions were gone the republicans would not change the labor laws. You are nuts. they are trying to change the labor laws every election but the unions fight it. And thats a fact. Ive been working with my district councel for the past 10 years stopping the changes of labor laws. Keeping them in place as it should be to help the non union get better wages and working condition.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

and the poor supermarket union members had their hats handed to them...all that striking and then a bad settlement.
The aircraft idiots I work with did exactly this last contract (october '06). Voted to strike over contract provisions, about 25 days later, voted to accept the "latest" new contract, which was 99% THE SAME CONTRACT. The only change was the $1500 signing bonus.
The local IAM idiots at Raytheon (now Beechcraft/Hawker) have now, for 3 contracts in a row, voted to reject the contract offered, and AT THE SAME TIME, voted NOT TO AUTHORIZE A STRIKE.
For those unfamiliar, this means they accept the contract anyway, by default.
Gee, somehow I don't blame the employers for these. Hmmmmmmm.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

There is no strong arm anymore that was a long time ago..
You bette4r let the Longshoremen's union in on this then, because they haven't figured it out yet.
Companies going out of bussiness because of a union no. Bad bussiness practices or they try and not pay there share and get sued for fraud..
Tell that to a Pan-Am Airlines employee. Oh, wait, they don't work for Pan Am anymore. Pan Am closed because they couldn't afford to remain in business paying "Their Fair Share" that the IAM demanded. The Union put them in bankruptcy.
I'm glad to hear your union actually demands work performance, that I have no problem with. Mine did/does not.

[DAVEO]

You bette4r let the Longshoremen's union in on this then, because they haven't figured it out yet.
Tell that to a Pan-Am Airlines employee. Oh, wait, they don't work for Pan Am anymore. Pan Am closed because they couldn't afford to remain in business paying "Their Fair Share" that the IAM demanded. The Union put them in bankruptcy.
I'm glad to hear your union actually demands work performance, that I have no problem with. Mine did/does not.
airlines did that sh!t to them selves. the unions had nothing to do with that. But that not what all the workers heard from the airlines.

[LGCDEVIL]

There is no strong arm anymore that was a long time ago.
100% false. I own a non-union company in so-cal. Battled with the union for 3 years before I quit doing the type of work they were interested in. We were working on a remodel at a very high end country club. About a 100 or so apprentices got the day off of school to come picket the job where we had six people working. They stood in front of both parking lot entrances and harassed the customers (mostly 35-50 year old women) as they tried to enter the club. Rude sexual remarks, climbing on their cars, hitting the cars with picket signs, etc... Real classy bunch. Myself and my workers have been followed (sometimes until 9 or 10pm). One of my workers got in a fight with a union rep. I got a phone call from the head of the union telling me if the kid pressed charges, we would more than likely never see him again. Kid freaked and moved to Montana. Gangsters, plain and simple. They spent more money (your money) than I gross in a year trying to put me out of business. Didn't work.

[HM]

airlines did that sh!t to them selves. the unions had nothing to do with that. But that not what all the workers heard from the airlines.
You have a point, probably not fully understood by you, but a point. The airlines are not the only ones to blame. The government heavily subsidized the airline industry, and many of them still to this day do not know how to survive without that subsidy. The government had "guaranteed" they would survive, and eventually the government could not live up to their end of that bargain so they "de-regulated." Now, the airlines that came into existance after de-regulation, are doing much better (i.e. SouthWest - not that they haven't had their struggles). But, the airlines bought into the "security" that the government was selling, much in the same way union workers buy into the "security" of working for a union. Unions are based in socialistic ideals, which have proven to ALWAYS fail. They will have brief moments in history where they work, but they ALWAYS fail, because the idealogy is flawed in its basic understanding of human nature and economics.
I will say that Unions have had a very positive impact on technology. The impact unions have had on keeping wages high has been fairly significant, so companies are forced to look to technology to completely remove as much human involvement as possible. So, instead of slowly bleeding wages down, they completely eliminate the need for employees in many areas. The only exception to this is the use of outsourcing. People/Unions are fighting outsourcing...and they will win! Only, becareful what you wish for. They will not bring the jobs back...they will eliminate them with technology.
Daveo...while people like you fight for a "floor" of security and income, there are many people like me who will never understand that mentality, because we are more worried about the ceiling. We can be condescending about union workers because we have never had to deal with the floor as we have always strived for the ceiling and most of the people fighting for the floor really deserved to be there (in our minds) because we fought to be on top of the food chain. Infact, so many people fighting for the bottom rung of the ladder makes it easier for those of us that want to climb it. Many of us actually get really bothered by the ceiling, as bothered as you are by the floor, and we set out our life objectives to remove the ceiling. I gave up a 15 year career because I saw that I had a ceiling, and the companies I worked for did not have a ceiling. I saw that demanding more would get me nowhere, so I went into business for myself. My business is only a few years old and not out of the woods by any means. But, I have been successful enough to know that I am staying. There are no guarantees for me...and I may have to resort to going back to a job at some point while I regroup and plan my next effort. The bonus is, that the skills that I have learned in being in business for myself will allow me to re-enter the work force, almost at will, at the top paying positions. Is that fair? No, but life is not fair. Any attempt to make life fair will be an excersise in futility. It is like captain Kirk (Star Trek). The captain test involved a lose-lose scenario. He cheated, and secretely reprogrammed the test so that there was a win scenario. That is exactly how many of us think. We won't go along with the lose-lose secnario of security and guarantees...so we cheat. The only problem is, that most don't see that they are in a lose-lose situation until they lose...and then their options are dwindled to almost nothing.

[riverroyal]

union pipefitter/steamfitter.Im not pro or anti union,its just in my blood.Unions in constuction in socal are very weak.But if you look at non union workers and quaility of work theres a difference.Constuction just isnt the same anymore,on the surface it look ok,but inside its crap.20 years of building and products are now just horrible.Owners get cheap buildings which is what they want.Its like home building,no ones stays in their houses here for their entire life,so quaility has been sacrificied.Also why pay a union guy 30$ a hour when you can get 3 mexicans to due it for 10$.Im not racist just the facts.We are in a border town.Ive have a few more years to go for my pension money to go up,then Im out

[HM]

A little more on the floor/ceiling analogy...
The higher the floor, the lower the ceiling. Those of us that completely eliminate the floor, actually remove the ceiling. Your fight for the floor directly puts a ceiling on others....so is that really fair? As I said, life is not fair. So, instead of demanding that the ceiling be raised, we go to where there is no ceiling, and many times we do that by starting our own business. Some say we are driven by the love of money. But, those fighting for the floor are driven by the fear of money. I don't love money, I just want to build a business so that I don't have to worry about money later on. Again, there are no guarantees. I am also not one of those people that plan to give my wealth to my kids...infact, giving my wealth to my kids and grandkids and etc. will ruin their lives. I will be more than generous with my wealth of life experience, but they will not be entitled to any money.
There is a great movie about this coming out called the Ultimate Gift. I have been handing this book to many people for a couple years now. The ultimate gift is the elimination of entitlements. How does this tie into the union argument? entitlement - people who think they have an entitlement to security and guarantees in life truly don't undestand what this country was built on.

[RT21]

You have a point, probably not fully understood by you, but a point. The airlines are not the only ones to blame. The government heavily subsidized the airline industry, and many of them still to this day do not know how to survive without that subsidy. The government had "guaranteed" they would survive, and eventually the government could not live up to their end of that bargain so they "de-regulated." Now, the airlines that came into existance after de-regulation, are doing much better (i.e. SouthWest - not that they haven't had their struggles). But, the airlines bought into the "security" that the government was selling, much in the same way union workers buy into the "security" of working for a union. Unions are based in socialistic ideals, which have proven to ALWAYS fail. They will have brief moments in history where they work, but they ALWAYS fail, because the idealogy is flawed in its basic understanding of human nature and economics.
I will say that Unions have had a very positive impact on technology. The impact unions have had on keeping wages high has been fairly significant, so companies are forced to look to technology to completely remove as much human involvement as possible. So, instead of slowly bleeding wages down, they completely eliminate the need for employees in many areas. The only exception to this is the use of outsourcing. People/Unions are fighting outsourcing...and they will win! Only, becareful what you wish for. They will not bring the jobs back...they will eliminate them with technology.
Daveo...while people like you fight for a "floor" of security and income, there are many people like me who will never understand that mentality, because we are more worried about the ceiling. We can be condescending about union workers because we have never had to deal with the floor as we have always strived for the ceiling and most of the people fighting for the floor really deserved to be there (in our minds) because we fought to be on top of the food chain. Infact, so many people fighting for the bottom rung of the ladder makes it easier for those of us that want to climb it. Many of us actually get really bothered by the ceiling, as bothered as you are by the floor, and we set out our life objectives to remove the ceiling. I gave up a 15 year career because I saw that I had a ceiling, and the companies I worked for did not have a ceiling. I saw that demanding more would get me nowhere, so I went into business for myself. My business is only a few years old and not out of the woods by any means. But, I have been successful enough to know that I am staying. There are no guarantees for me...and I may have to resort to going back to a job at some point while I regroup and plan my next effort. The bonus is, that the skills that I have learned in being in business for myself will allow me to re-enter the work force, almost at will, at the top paying positions. Is that fair? No, but life is not fair. Any attempt to make life fair will be an excersise in futility. It is like captain Kirk (Star Trek). The captain test involved a lose-lose scenario. He cheated, and secretely reprogrammed the test so that there was a win scenario. That is exactly how many of us think. We won't go along with the lose-lose secnario of security and guarantees...so we cheat. The only problem is, that most don't see that they are in a lose-lose situation until they lose...and then their options are dwindled to almost nothing.
This post has jumping sharks written all over it.....:D

[HM]

This post has jumping sharks written all over it.....:D
LOL - I think you are 100% correct! :D
But, don't we all eventually have to jump the shark?

[DAVEO]

A little more on the floor/ceiling analogy...
The higher the floor, the lower the ceiling. Those of us that completely eliminate the floor, actually remove the ceiling. Your fight for the floor directly puts a ceiling on others....so is that really fair? As I said, life is not fair. So, instead of demanding that the ceiling be raised, we go to where there is no ceiling, and many times we do that by starting our own business. Some say we are driven by the love of money. But, those fighting for the floor are driven by the fear of money. I don't love money, I just want to build a business so that I don't have to worry about money later on. Again, there are no guarantees. I am also not one of those people that plan to give my wealth to my kids...infact, giving my wealth to my kids and grandkids and etc. will ruin their lives. I will be more than generous with my wealth of life experience, but they will not be entitled to any money.
There is a great movie about this coming out called the Ultimate Gift. I have been handing this book to many people for a couple years now. The ultimate gift is the elimination of entitlements. How does this tie into the union argument? entitlement - people who think they have an entitlement to security and guarantees in life truly don't undestand what this country was built on.
What does the flooring industry have to do with the ceiling. You must have miss understood me. I understand what you are talking about. you have a low and a high. But in all bussiness there is a ceiling, called overhead. You will never get away from that. Hay good luck I hope it works for you. as for the dumb asses that was picketing there are laws to what they did and they should be charged. That was totaly wrong. Pickets do get out of hand and I see that. but thats not with all areas. In norcal if that happend here one they would be charged with asult. I should have stated that the stronge arm is wrong and doesnt happen like it used too. There are laws and should be upheld. If you have video or pics of this then charge them with whatever you can cuz thats wrong.

[riverroyal]

100% false. I own a non-union company in so-cal. Battled with the union for 3 years before I quit doing the type of work they were interested in. We were working on a remodel at a very high end country club. About a 100 or so apprentices got the day off of school to come picket the job where we had six people working. They stood in front of both parking lot entrances and harassed the customers (mostly 35-50 year old women) as they tried to enter the club. Rude sexual remarks, climbing on their cars, hitting the cars with picket signs, etc... Real classy bunch. Myself and my workers have been followed (sometimes until 9 or 10pm). One of my workers got in a fight with a union rep. I got a phone call from the head of the union telling me if the kid pressed charges, we would more than likely never see him again. Kid freaked and moved to Montana. Gangsters, plain and simple. They spent more money (your money) than I gross in a year trying to put me out of business. Didn't work.
They teach about the trade and about PRO union,to much for my taste.Ive seen plenty of pickets on jobsites.99% of the guys out there are Ass holes off the picket line so they are really Aholes when given a cause.Remember the officials at the union halls were the ass hole apprentices long ago.My .02$

[HM]

....I understand what you are talking about. you have a low and a high. But in all bussiness there is a ceiling, called overhead. You will never get away from that....
Ahhh....I am starting to realize where you fall down in the thought process. Overhead is a moving target and there are two types of overhead...fixed and variable. Fixed overhead gives many people security, but there ends up being diminishing returns. Variable overhead will cost more in the short run, but will basically blow the ceiling off of earnings potential. It is not quite that black and white, but pretty damn close. Companies are breaking income records and sales records continuously. That type of thinking is what hurts most people in the understanding of economics....kind of like the following quote:
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."
--Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. Office of Patents, 1899.
Mr. Duell was trying to get the patent office shut down.

[HM]

some more quotes:
"Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons."
--Popular Mechanics, forecasting the relentless march of science, 1949
"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
--Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943
"I have traveled the length and breadth of this country and talked with
the best people, and I can assure you that data processing is a fad that
won't last out the year."
--The editor in charge of business books for Prentice Hall, 1957
"But what ... is it good for?"
--Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968,
commenting on the microchip.
"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home."
--Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment
Corp., 1977
"This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as
a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us."
--Western Union internal memo, 1876.
"The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay
for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
--David Sarnoff's associates in response to his urgings for investment
in the radio in the 1920s.
"The concept is interesting and well-formed, but in order to earn better
than a 'C,' the idea must be feasible."
--A Yale University management professor in response to Fred Smith's
paper proposing reliable overnight delivery service.
(Smith went on to found Federal Express Corp.)
"Who the hell wants to hear actors talk?"
--H.M. Warner, Warner Brothers, 1927.
"I'm just glad it'll be Clark Gable who's falling on his face and not
Gary Cooper."
--Gary Cooper on his decision not to take the leading role in
"Gone With The Wind."
"A cookie store is a bad idea. Besides, the market research reports say
America likes crispy cookies, not soft and chewy cookies like you make."
--Response to Debbi Fields' idea of starting Mrs. Fields' Cookies.
"We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out."
--Decca Recording Co. rejecting the Beatles, 1962.
"Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible."
--Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895.
"If I had thought about it, I wouldn't have done the experiment.
The literature was full of examples that said you can't do this."
--Spencer Silver on the work that led to the unique adhesives for
3-M "Post-It" notepads.
"So we went to Atari and said, 'Hey, we've got this amazing thing, even
built with some of your parts, and what do you think about funding us? Or
we'll give it to you. We just want to do it. Pay our salary, we'll come
work for you.' And they said, 'No.' So then we went to Hewlett-Packard,
and they said, 'Hey, we don't need you. You haven't got through college
yet.'"
--Apple Computer Inc. founder Steve Jobs on attempts to get Atari and
H-P interested in his and Steve Wozniak's personal computer.
"Professor Goddard does not know the relation between action and reaction
and the need to have something better than a vacuum against which to react.
He seems to lack the basic knowledge ladled out daily in high schools."
--1921 New York Times editorial about Robert Goddard's revolutionary
rocket work.
"You want to have consistent and uniform muscle development across all of
your muscles? It can't be done. It's just a fact of life. You just have
to accept inconsistent muscle development as an unalterable condition of
weight training."
--Response to Arthur Jones, who solved the "unsolvable" problem
by inventing Nautilus.
"Drill for oil? You mean drill into the ground to try and find oil?
You're crazy."
--Drillers who Edwin L. Drake tried to enlist to his project to drill
for oil in 1859.
"Stocks have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau."
--Irving Fisher, Professor of Economics, Yale University, 1929.
"Airplanes are interesting toys but of no military value."
--Marechal Ferdinand Foch, Professor of Strategy, Ecole Superieure
de Guerre.
"Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction".
--Pierre Pachet, Professor of Physiology at Toulouse, 1872
"The abdomen, the chest, and the brain will forever be shut from the
intrusion of the wise and humane surgeon".
--Sir John Eric Ericksen, British surgeon, appointed Surgeon-
Extraordinary to Queen Victoria 1873.
"640K ought to be enough for anybody."
--Bill Gates, 1981

[GHT]

There is no strong arm anymore that was a long time ago. Companies going out of bussiness because of a union no. Bad bussiness practices or they try and not pay there share and get sued for fraud. and if the people are unemployed then they are not good enough to keep working. In my feild you slack you dont work. we are requierd to install a min. yardage a day and if not we are history. Like Ive said before in other threads like this is to each his own. You dont like unions I do. Works for me not you. We understand that.
It's all good DAVEO... Difference of opinion is what makes this country so great. BUT, I wish you where with me when two Teamsters (on two different occassions) tried to follow me home and had let it know that they were dilligently trying to get me alone...:idea: I would call those threats and attemps "strong arming" and this wasn't "a long time ago"...:D

[Racey]

I don't really care about Unions one way or another themselves, if you want to give money off the top of your paycheck to make someone else fat fine by me. But what pisses me off is guys making 30+ an hour +beni's that are complete idiots with barely enough skill to tie their shoes, causing the rest of us to pay outrages prices for goods and services, Like CARS AND TRUCKS for example! Think about next time you wonder why that new Suburban costs 50g's and GM is still in the RED.
Union workers work just hard enough to keep the job going, there is no incentive to bust your ass more than the next guy, since you are all getting paid the same. It's pretty much internal Socialism.

[SmokinLowriderSS]

Union workers work just hard enough to keep the job going, there is no incentive to bust your ass more than the next guy, since you are all getting paid the same. It's pretty much internal Socialism.
Like the one who walked up to me while I was new to my latest department/production line and quietly told me "They are doing a time study so make sure you take as much time as possible to do the job you are doing."
He never spoke to me again after I told him that he had better watch who he tells stuff like that to because that would be an unauthorized work slowdown/stoppage and, by the contract, is a termination at first offence.
Stupid fat fuk sheet-metal mechanic with about 15 years in who an ELECTRICIAN (me) had to explain a blueprint to so I could get some wire mounting clips installed on a modification on another production line.
You would expect a 15-yr experience sheet-metal mechanic to be able to READ A DAMN SHEET-METAL ENGINEERING DRAWING. Nope, not Bob the butcher.
Yea, he was a butcher too, not the guy you wanted drilling holes in your airplane.
And the one 8 days ago on a Friday who had the afternoon off on FMLA, who did NOT A DAMN THING between 7AM and 11AM except go from 1 person's toolbox to another, BS'ing with everyone. I don't think he even unlocked his.

[Cat Skinner]

Damn DaveO,
You've really been holdin' down bro. My lazy union ass has been out fishing all day. Must be a union holiday for the big bass all I caught was about 50 little scab bass 1-2 pounders. Hope everythings goin' well for ya. When you movin' to Disco? Dock? House Warming? hint hint:D

[DAVEO]

Damn DaveO,
You've really been holdin' down bro. My lazy union ass has been out fishing all day. Must be a union holiday for the big bass all I caught was about 50 little scab bass 1-2 pounders. Hope everythings goin' well for ya. When you movin' to Disco? Dock? House Warming? hint hint:D
no dock just a house but there will be a party. should be there sometime this summer. If all goes good. when we going to see ya on a lunch run?

[Cat Skinner]

I guess I'm going to have to go as someones boat bitch. It's just not that fun in my bubble machine. I do miss those runs though. Maybe I can catch a ride with you one time.

[raff]

Work Union, Live Better.........
Now with that being said, I need to prepare you all for a long strike....
This strike could last anywhere from 3 to 6 months. We know it will be a burden on some of you, you may lose your cars or your houses.
But it's for the better, we are hoping to get you a 4% pay increase over 3 years, and reduce your medical co-pay from $20 to $15 dollars.
In the interim, you will still need to pay your monthly union dues to the union, and for those of you who walk the picket line, we will give you $45 per day to live on.
We are sorry for the hardship that this may cause some of you, but it's for the better.
Thank you,
Your Union Rep
And remember WORK UNION, LIVE BETTER

[bordsmnj]

what's a co-pay?:D i might hafta go on strike to get one of those:confused:
then a hafta get with my rep and have a little talk with him about our goons not doing their job. enough of this just follow people around shit i think my dues should buy a few broken legs.:eek:

[skygod73]

I belong to ALPA. Regardless of how you feel about Unions, every time you get on a plane you are much safer because of it. Almost every important safety reg that exists today is because ALPA fought for it.
Trust me, I realize Unions can do more harm than good but in certain circumstances they are needed.
ALPA= Air Line Pilots Association
Click on the link below to see the 70 years of safety timeline to see the many areas where ALPA has made the industry safer.
http://www.alpa.org/?tabid=176
I realize ALPA has made it's share of mistakes over the years as well, but on the whole my profession is better for it.

[DAVEO]

I guess I'm going to have to go as someones boat bitch. It's just not that fun in my bubble machine. I do miss those runs though. Maybe I can catch a ride with you one time.
Your more than welcome anytime.

[boater250s]

Last time I looked union workers only make up 18% of the work force, last time I went to school that means 18 out of 100 workers belong to the union. I don't see how they can be responsible for the cost of whole goods and manufacturing going up. The other 82% has to take on some of the responisbility, most things manufacted are outside of this country anyway, last time I looked everything was made in China. Just my two cents.

[Baja Big Dog]

Teamsters symbol
The horse....why?
Its the only animal that can sleep standing up!!!

[Havasu1986]

Teamsters symbol
The horse....why?
Its the only animal that can sleep standing up!!!
Don't cows sometimes sleep standing up.."Cow tipping":D

[centerhill condor]

seeing how the workers are back at GM...I thought I'd lighten things up a bit with some humor.
Q:How many UAW members does it take to replace a light bulb?
A:27, you got a problem with that?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
My dad worked in chemical plants for better part of 45 years and saved many jobs by improving management practices. He and his company are mentioned in the book, "in search of excellence".
So, dad being unable to sleep figures he'll go in have some coffee and tour the place to see if it is okay...enters a control room to find a union member asleep at the switch. Now, they're making HF and other nasty stuff here not play do..so dad fires the guy...he gets the union to keep him on. Imagine that where you work!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I was all of 20 and working a summer at a mercury sludge treatment plant and we weren't union. Well, the union guys started picketing us. Knocked out one of our bosses teeth..you should have heard him on the radio. We pulled a fast one and started showing up at work at 4 am and they never bothered us again.
The Texaco plant in NJ went on strike and the salaried engineers got a raise in pay upon the union going back to work...'cause they had a minimum wage at the plant!
My experience with unions has been mixed. They can and do help improve the trades; electricians, brick layers, iron hangers, etc. and they do price themselves right out of work, sometimes. Then there's the mob and the union.
They bargained for the weekend and other things we take for granted today; 40 hour work week, child labor laws, minimum wage. Whatcha gonna do? two sides on the coin!
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