Anyone with knowledge of manufacturing in China??

[WetWillie]

Is there anyone on here that has knowledge of manufacturing in china? I was just hoping to pick someones brain. I have a prototype that I just got back and I am very happy with it. A couple of things don't work but they are minor and i fel pretty confident they will get it right.
A couple questions I have:
Should I buy the molds outright so that I own them or work the price into the units I buy?
What should the plastic Molds cost me? This device is about the size of a hand drill and consists of 25 pieces. Does $75k sound right?
How can I be assured I own the molds? How do lawsuits work between China and United States?
How do I know the price from the factory is a good price??? Since the factory doing the prototyping is also giving me the price to build it? Is there price shopping in a situation like this??
What agreement can I get from the factory that the protects me. lets say that there is a shaft that a gear works on. It breaks after three months of use and I have to warranty all of the tools I sold?? Who's responsablity is that??
I just want to make sure I am protecting myself here as much as possible..
Thanks,
WW:idea:

[Cole Sanger]

I think you may have wanted to ask these questions before you had it made in China.

[lewiville]

Is there anyone on here that has knowledge of manufacturing in china? I was just hoping to pick someones brain. I have a prototype that I just got back and I am very happy with it. A couple of things don't work but they are minor and i fel pretty confident they will get it right.
A couple questions I have:
Should I buy the molds outright so that I own them or work the price into the units I buy?
What should the plastic Molds cost me? This device is about the size of a hand drill and consists of 25 pieces. Does $75k sound right?
How can I be assured I own the molds? How do lawsuits work between China and United States?
How do I know the price from the factory is a good price??? Since the factory doing the prototyping is also giving me the price to build it? Is there price shopping in a situation like this??
What agreement can I get from the factory that the protects me. lets say that there is a shaft that a gear works on. It breaks after three months of use and I have to warranty all of the tools I sold?? Who's responsablity is that??
I just want to make sure I am protecting myself here as much as possible..
Thanks,
WW:idea:
Its hard to say. Although China is communist they are still on the up and up. One of the things that is more and more commun is after they manufacture your idea for a while, they themself's will find a way to make it and then manufacture it them selfs. You might look for a international Patent attorney and even at that its only good for a number of years.

[whiteworks]

be very very careful who you do business with. if there are multiple pieces I would recommend splitting up the manufacturing process between a few different shops. Chinese shops are crooked as hell. they will knockoff your product and have them here as soon as your shit gets here. some warning signs would be a shop that will make the mold and manufacture for you and take the setup cost on the back-end sales of the product. I have seen a lot of products get knocked off fast. the thing that sucks is they know demand for your product since they are making it, if it shows any potential for good numbers it will get knocked off. proceed with caution and play your cards close to your vest. I would look into vietnam aswell. Have you shopped around the USA at all? good luck and proceed with caution

[WetWillie]

I thought about applying for one in china as well since that is were its made and that is were I would think they would try and sell it.
My patent is on the process and should protect me really well if they make a few changes to it to get around.
Its hard to say. Although China is communist they are still on the up and up. One of the things that is more and more commun is after they manufacture your idea for a while, they themself's will find a way to make it and then manufacture it them selfs. You might look for a international Patent attorney and even at that its only good for a number of years.

[WetWillie]

I did not have much luck getting the proto done here is the states. I waited almost a year for a shop to get it done here. 4 months in china and its done!!
I am trying to do this as carefully as I possibly can...
be very very careful who you do business with. if there are multiple pieces I would recommend splitting up the manufacturing process between a few different shops. Chinese shops are crooked as hell. they will knockoff your product and have them here as soon as your shit gets here. some warning signs would be a shop that will make the mold and manufacture for you and take the setup cost on the back-end sales of the product. I have seen a lot of products get knocked off fast. the thing that sucks is they know demand for your product since they are making it, if it shows any potential for good numbers it will get knocked off. proceed with caution and play your cards close to your vest. I would look into vietnam aswell. Have you shopped around the USA at all? good luck and proceed with caution

[whiteworks]

have you made the trip to china to check things out. there are business networking groups here in the states that promote doing business in the free trade zone. I would look into these type of groups and find out as much info as possible.

[Rock-A-Bye-Baby]

Be VERY careful dealing with the Chinese. I do a great deal of business over there and they are crooked as crooked gets. I am in the semiconductor industry and the Chinese are responsible for over 90% of the counterfeit components that are traded in our market. I am on a counterfeit component committe that discusses their processes and it is amazing what they will do. For example, a Nike shoe factory would process shoes from, say 8-5. At 5:30 the plant owner fired the line back up and pumped shoes out the backdoor to be sold on the black market. Unfortunatley you just handed them your design so there is definitely some risk there.
Good luck.

[Blown 472]

And god forbid you put some americans to work.:mad:

[Boozer]

Willie,
Send a PM to ViB. His real name is Stuart. Stuart sources stuff from China all the time, it's my understanding that one of his business's does this solely. He will probably be able to tell you the do's and dont's of doing business with the chineese and maybe even help you get a better price.

[Boozer]

I thought about applying for one in china as well since that is were its made and that is were I would think they would try and sell it.
My patent is on the process and should protect me really well if they make a few changes to it to get around.
Patents are only as good as the attorney deffending them. A good patent attorney will cost big bucks and in most cases filing a patent lawsuit will cost you more then the suit will win.
We have several different components for car washes that are all protected under patent. This year while attending the car wash show we found several companies using our patented components without our permission. Unfortunately the cost of suing these guys is out of control so other then sending threatening letters to the companies using our stuff our hands are tied unless we want to shell out big bucks to sue them.

[wsuwrhr]

And god forbid you put some americans to work.:mad:
That is what I was thinking.

[Tom Brown]

And god forbid you put some americans to work.:mad:
Pipe down, Charlie.

[2Driver]

The cliché is: In China copyright means copy it right.
A friend of mine makes a number of components in China. They use Tandy Corp (radio shack fame) as a manufacturing outsource vendor. Their product is a plumbing fixture and not even electronics. He felt like he had some safety and control out sourcing to an American run China facility. Makes sense to me.

[OGShocker]

I have VERY good contacts in SoCal. Our mold maker is top notch and very reasonable on pricing. Our plastic injection company is owned by a Hot Boater (not on the forums) in the Valley. PM me if you want details.
I will NEVER go to China for mold work again. They kept our mold for one week after the order was complete. When we want back to them one year later, we had to have another mold made. If you must go "off-shore", go India! Here is a link... (http://www.trade-india.com/Exporters_Manufacturers/Indianexporters/Chemicals/Plastics_and_Products/Injection_Moulding)

[32sunrkt]

www.asiasourcenow.com
Talk to Dave Landis...A WELL SPOKEN HONEST & TRUE PROFFESIONAL.
Tell him his cable guy sent ya ...;)

[ViB]

Thanks Boozer,
yeah, we do a lot over there in a variety of industries. If you are not going to be there to personally oversee the production to control the quality, you will need a very solid liason.
And quite honestly, we find that only 2 out of 3 products that we source in China are economically feasible. The rest we make here in the States.
We've been through the mold issues, tool and die issues, amortizing the costs, fraud, etc. its always a risk to do business with the Chinese, they are not your friends.
Stu

[ParkerRat]

[QUOTE=WetWillie;2544458]Is there anyone on here that has knowledge of manufacturing in china? I was just hoping to pick someones brain. I have a prototype that I just got back and I am very happy with it. A couple of things don't work but they are minor and i fel pretty confident they will get it right.
WW, I have been doing business in China for many years and have dealt with many American companies who have the same concerns. Many of my current customers have been down the road of dealing directly with the factories without representation in China and realized it is not always an easy thing to do. It is all about finding the right factory to work with. Unfortunatly, many times you do not now if they are the right factory until it is too late. I have tried to answer some of your concerns below.
A couple questions I have:
Should I buy the molds outright so that I own them or work the price into the units I buy? I would say it is best to buy the molds so you can take them to another factory if the current supplier does not perform or jacks your price for no good reason. This can sometimes be pretty tricky getting the die from them though. Make sure you have a good contract that states clearly that you own the tooling and that they are bound by a non-compete and non-diclosure agreement. You will want to be sure you talk to a lawyer who deals in Chinese law before you do this to be sure it is enforceable. Alos make sure there is a clause that states that the factory is responsible for reparing or replacing the die as it wears. This is pretty standard.
What should the plastic Molds cost me? This device is about the size of a hand drill and consists of 25 pieces. Does $75k sound right? No way to know on this until you actually take a good look at the parts. If you know what your volume is going to be, you can usually work with the factory to ammortize part of the tooling. You just may not be able to "Pull" the tooling until after you have completed the ammortization period unless you pay the balance.
How can I be assured I own the molds? How do lawsuits work between China and United States? Like I said above, be sure you have a good contract that is enforceable in China. I do a huge amount of business in China for many different customers. I broker manufacturing work for American Companies. We partner with a chinese company that handles all of the Chinese contracts, product managment, and Quality controll. I cannot tell you how valuable it is to have someone in China looking out for your interests. Paying someone a small percentage to do this can save you untold headaches and a lot of money if you get hooked up with the wrong factory. I have toured so many factories in china that look very professional and completely legit. Only to find out later that the "owner" of the factory was not even affiliated with them. He was just someone trying to broker a deal. China is a "land of smoke and mirrors" where much of the time things are not what they appear. If you are going to go it alone, at the very least, you should get references for the factory and talk to them in detail.
How do I know the price from the factory is a good price??? Since the factory doing the prototyping is also giving me the price to build it? Is there price shopping in a situation like this?? Very hard to tell without shopping it around or at least talking to other suppliers who are already doing similar products.
What agreement can I get from the factory that the protects me. lets say that there is a shaft that a gear works on. It breaks after three months of use and I have to warranty all of the tools I sold?? Who's responsablity is that?? - The only thing the factory will be responsible for is building the products to your specification. You have to be sure you specify everything or you will never be able to control what you get. Material, finish, Tolerances, and product documentation are very important when dealing with china. Unfortunatly, sometimes the answer to this is in how much leverage you hold over the fcatory. If, for example, the factory is building one product for you and there is a problem that they are responsible for. They may decide it would be cheaper and/or easier to no longer do work for you, rather than "man up" and replace the bad parts. You may find yourself looking for a new supplier. Most factories know it is near imposible for a small American company with no representation in China to hold them accountable for these types of issues. I am not trying to scare you off from China, I just think you should be prepared.
I just want to make sure I am protecting myself here as much as possible..
Thanks,

[WetWillie]

I just couldnt validate the design it needed more engineering and my local engineer was slammed and put me off for almost a year so I had to try another route.:eek:
That is what I was thinking.

[SummitKarl]

I did allot of this back in the day:rolleyes: shopped the world...OG's right there a a couple of real good mold makers in the S.D (mira mesa) area
in the end we had the products made in Isreal, no one could compete with the price being as Home Depot was the end customer every $.0001 counts
they are still pumping them out 10yrs later:jawdrop:
also Malibuken on the board would be a real good source to talk with, he worked for "testors" and still does a butt load of plastic design daily;)

[OCMerrill]

I spent 20+ years of my 40 life years in the plastics industry. Followed my father as his entire career is in this industry. Mattel Toys for the most part.
I was and I suppose still am an Injection Mold tool designer/engineer, 3D Solids modeling, yada, yada.
I am now a General Contractor as our business owned (by me as the smallest partner) three partners took all plastic manufacturing to China. The other two partners saw no reason for my future engineering, tooling repair, getting running parts correctly and the assembly process. Ousted I was with little money to either survive or fight. I sucked it up and started over.
So now as I understand it they Mold the parts and build the products to some sort of sub assembly level entirely in China. Many of which I still hold patents on. Fawkers. This is a whole thread in its self.
Here is my .02 on Chinese TOOLING. When I was involved all our tooling was made by local shops in Chino, Irvine, and we used a shop in Simi Valley. We had minimal issues with tooling. Ran tons of parts right here as well. I can name many names. I was involved first hand in redesigning Chinese tooling to make it run correctly once it got here. My second weekend and night business was a moonlighting tooling engineer.
If you buy a China tool let them run the parts for the piece part price quoted. If you bring it here it will not turn the cycle you were hoping for. Many reasons but they like to leave out water lines, wear plates under slides, use metals that are cheaper and won't conduct heat away well enough. There are many other reasons to numerous to mention. I would say figure cycle times as much as 25% off the mark told.
Unless there is someone watching the tool ( i doubt it) this is what you will get. They get their money as it get loaded on a boat as well so your fawked unless you have made arrangements otherwise.
Remember the BIGGEST drawback is if what you order is not correct when you receive it then you have to WAIT. When the parts get here QC them before you pay.
Wasted time = money which makes the process tough.
So, as said above what I would recommend is an American company acting as a broker. You will pay more (brokers need money too:) ) but at least there is someone to gag, bind, and throw in the the trunk of a car:D :D
Again just an opinion.;)

[lewiville]

The cliché is: In China copyright means copy it right.
A friend of mine makes a number of components in China. They use Tandy Corp (radio shack fame) as a manufacturing outsource vendor. Their product is a plumbing fixture and not even electronics. He felt like he had some safety and control out sourcing to an American run China facility. Makes sense to me.
exactly, thats the next thing I was going to say. They most often cant get it right. BUT, when they do, look out stream line baby.

[WetWillie]

Thanks SB I did try. I even sat down with a couple people on this board to offer it to them. The issue was I needed a mix of engineering as well and proto typing to assure it would work.
This thread has me thinking. I would rather have it made here in the US.
Now I am pissed I had it prototyped there :mad: :mad:
But it seemed like EVERY shop that I tried to talk to about doing this was busy or wanted to go open ticket at $175hr. That was a bit scary for me to do.
I got a quote from China. I cut the check and a few months later got the proto...
I plan to PM a few people on here and see if I can get the Solidworks design from China. maybe I can support the US guys if they can accommodate me!:jawdrop:
Am I the only one that read two times, at least, that he attempted to have the product made in the US and waited for over a year with no working prototype? Reading comprehension 1, You 0.

[scooooter7]

Most times...the only good working part is the prototype. The filled order just doesn't cut it.

[Magic34]

Am I the only one that read two times, at least, that he attempted to have the product made in the US and waited for over a year with no working prototype? Reading comprehension 1, You 0.
Welcome back. :D

[77Woodbridge]

Good thread, please follow up with how you make out.

[WetWillie]

Well this project is still ongoing. I have still not finalized a deal with China. I found out some good info about my friend doing the sourcing (note dont try and charge your friend more then the factory is making).
I have two prototypes that are 95% perfect. I have the SolidWorks drawings.
I have called a few people that were referred to me both on this thread and via PM's I received not one call back. I assume all the real good people are busy.. I am partially to blame as I am busy at work and only made one attempt.
The thing I found with China is that they are aggressive and eager to make things happen....
I have a call into a Chinese sourcing agent for tomorrow. They charge 3 to 5% of the deal cost to help watch over things and recommend a good factory..
This thread has made me think and if I could have it built in the USA for a fair price I would consider doing that..
I could use some help! Without giving away to much info I need to make a product similar to the item shown below.
http://www.garveyproducts.com/bmz_cache/f/fe9801fbb1219b926046a83519edf492.image.750x524.jpg
So I need a factory that that can do the following.
Verify and make changes to the existing engineering
Plastic Injection molding
Rubber belt manufacturing
Spring Sourcing
Ink sourcing
Assembly
Packaging
Basically make a turn key product ready for the market???
Are there a parts of the country (USA) That specialize in this type of manufacturing that would be good to look at?? I assume having something made in California is a bad Idea and the most expensive as all the rules and regulations??
How about another country that is a bit more civilized? Mexico??:jawdrop:
Just thinking out loud here??

[WetWillie]

:)

[sanger rat]

All kinds of places here in Michigan could make the parts. And they are begging for work.

[WetWillie]

Michigan is closer then China!!
All kinds of places here in Michigan could make the parts. And they are begging for work.

[deeee]

You could have all the tooling and molds made in china and then do the production here in untied states. The company my dad works for did that with some tooling for stamping. The tooling need a little bit of rework when it got here but it still worked out to be cheaper.

[sanger rat]

Michigan is closer then China!! Just do a google search. Here is a short list. http://www.mfgquote.com/profiles/Injection-Molding-Michigan.html Any of the places that USED to make car parts can do what you are looking to do.

[CPBRIAN10THMTN]

Steer clean of motor parts outta china, bad news, screwed up tolerances all over the place. Cheap crap IMO, go the extra mile and buck, it will pay off in the end. If your lookin to get something like cosmetic where you wouldn't have to worry about tolerances then i would say it might work out for you. Its cheap, thats about the only plus to china manufacturing. Theres no quality in it whatsoever and any customer can tell the difference. The cardboard is a dead giveaway haha:D

[Infomaniac]

Am I the only one that read two times, at least, that he attempted to have the product made in the US and waited for over a year with no working prototype? Reading comprehension 1, You 0.
How hard did he try? I could have got it done or him.
Might have been as simple as posting a question on here for a hook up.
I am semi grateful for Chinese and India crap. We rework them all the time. At leate we get some of the work.
One companies view is if they can get it done overseas and reworked here cheaper than they could have had it manufactured here. They are happy.
They generally do no just make 1 for you. They make full run and send you one for inspection. If it is good then great. if it is not aceptable they will do it again. But you will see the bad ones later on mixed in with the good ones.
My view ... If it is absolutely impossible to market your product without going overwseas I might understand. If it is solely for profit margin then It is a very bad thing for al of us.

[bonesfab]

most of the chinese sh#$ is just that. i have been trying to find a decent grease gun, but there all made in china and all suck!!! just like all the stuff at harbour garbage( harbour freight), one time use only.. Bring back the good ole made in the USA. not just packaged here.

[STV_Keith]

Spring Sourcing
We have used Chinese manufacturers in the past and one thing that I found was that they will back-door sell your product to others. It will look identical, so it's impossible to tell the difference...which means if you don't sell them all retail yourself, you don't know that this product that came in a different way, didn't go through your hands. SCARY stuff.
Also, I've found that you have to be VERY conscientious in checking the quality of what you get. It seems the prototypes are always quite good, but once the production stuff starts coming, it's like 75% quality of the prototype.
On the springs...we use Newcomb Spring in CA...you send them a sample or tell them what you want and they can build it. Great pricing and turn around is usually under 4 weeks. If you can't find a number for them, PM me and I'll get it for you on Monday.