Boat builders and illegal labor...

[Scarab Jet]

Just curious... Are there any boat builders (especially in California, Nevada and Arizona) that DON'T use illegal labor?
It just astounds me that we let them get away with the prices that they charge for new boats and at the same time they pay illegals whatever they want and break our laws at the same time...
No wonder that the only people that don't seem to be benefitting from this cottage industry are us middle class folks... I.e., the boat builders benefit by hiring cheap illegal workforce but still charge what the heck ever they want for building us a boat... and illegals benefit by making a hell of a lot more money than they would across the boarder and at the same time putting a US citizen who happens to be interested in working in the boat business out of work cause he couldn't possibly compete with the illegal labor rates that boat builders want to pay.
Somehow I know that some of you (especially the boat builders) will say the following... Well... can you imagine what we would have to charge you if we didn't have this illegal labor? To which I'd say... well rather not say it here...
So, fellow ***boaters... tell me... Am I totally out'a line here?

[wsuwrhr]

Pencil in most any industry today.
I think the last decade's slowdown of domestic manufacturing will hurt the middle class as well.
Brian
Just curious... Are there any boat builders (especially in California, Nevada and Arizona) that DON'T use illegal labor?
It just astounds me that we let them get away with the prices that they charge for new boats and at the same time they pay illegals whatever they want and break our laws at the same time...
No wonder that the only people that don't seem to be benefitting from this cottage industry are us middle class folks... I.e., the boat builders benefit by hiring cheap illegal workforce but still charge what the heck ever they want for building us a boat... and illegals benefit by making a hell of a lot more money than they would across the boarder and at the same time putting a US citizen who happens to be interested in working in the boat business out of work cause he couldn't possibly compete with the illegal labor rates that boat builders want to pay.
Somehow I know that some of you (especially the boat builders) will say the following... Well... can you imagine what we would have to charge you if we didn't have this illegal labor? To which I'd say... well rather not say it here...
So, fellow ***boaters... tell me... Am I totally out'a line here?

[atomickitn]

hope we dont ....last i checked i was not an illeagal.....pos..,i think that rhett was not either .....but i found out today that on my regular job we have humm *****n workers that their resident ailien cards are expired and that one of thems driver lic has not been current since 04......i sooooooo wanted to send his azz packin, but that is for my office to do.:mad:

[ULTRA28]

Feel free to stop by Ultra anytime you want, bring the INS with, but be prepared to pull that foot out of your mouth. ALL of our workers are legal and VERY well paid. I actually don't know of any manufacturer that uses illegal workers.
Just because a worker is hispanic you assume they are illegal?
Just because someone can't afford a new boat, they shouldn't go around making accusations they can't back up.

[pw_Tony]

Feel free to stop by Ultra anytime you want, bring the INS with, but be prepared to pull that foot out of your mouth. ALL of our workers are legal and VERY well paid. I actually don't know of any manufacturer that uses illegal workers.
Just because a worker is hispanic you assume they are illegal?
Just because someone can't afford a new boat, they shouldn't go around making accusations they can't back up.
Ooooo....burn

[bigq]

I would think that the custom boating industry would be the last place to find low wage earners. It looks like it takes a little talent to be able to produce that product. Its not like picking strawberries or working in fast food.
Not to mention I would venture to say truely Made In The USA!!!:D

[BADBLOWN572]

Feel free to stop by Ultra anytime you want, bring the INS with, but be prepared to pull that foot out of your mouth. ALL of our workers are legal and VERY well paid. I actually don't know of any manufacturer that uses illegal workers.
Just because a worker is hispanic you assume they are illegal?
Just because someone can't afford a new boat, they shouldn't go around making accusations they can't back up.
PERFECT!!! :)

[Jbb]

Just because someone can't afford a new boat, they shouldn't go around making accusations they can't back up.
:jawdrop:

[27 Awesome cat]

Biglue has a green card:D

[Biglue]

Biglue has a green card:D
Only twenny-nine niney fie in China Town. :D

[ChumpChange]

What manufacturer are you talking about? I've been to just about everyone of them seeing both the office as well as manufacturing side and don't know what you are talking about.

[Goodtime$]

That is the most ass-nine question ever.
Not even getting into the micro-economic model of boat building,
ie- dealing with increase prices on resin,fiberglass,wood,labor,motors,everything else which can be weekly.
It cost a lot of money to build a new jet boat, hence the price.
Bayliners are 14k
im an illegal alien. see you in the OC. i cut your lawn.
dana points finest.

[Xlration Marine]

Just curious... Are there any boat builders (especially in California, Nevada and Arizona) that DON'T use illegal labor?
It just astounds me that we let them get away with the prices that they charge for new boats and at the same time they pay illegals whatever they want and break our laws at the same time...
No wonder that the only people that don't seem to be benefitting from this cottage industry are us middle class folks... I.e., the boat builders benefit by hiring cheap illegal workforce but still charge what the heck ever they want for building us a boat... and illegals benefit by making a hell of a lot more money than they would across the boarder and at the same time putting a US citizen who happens to be interested in working in the boat business out of work cause he couldn't possibly compete with the illegal labor rates that boat builders want to pay.
Somehow I know that some of you (especially the boat builders) will say the following... Well... can you imagine what we would have to charge you if we didn't have this illegal labor? To which I'd say... well rather not say it here...
So, fellow ***boaters... tell me... Am I totally out'a line here?
they don't have the skill that is required to do most of the work. They might be rolling out the glass, but other that I wouldn't think so.

[ultra26shadow]

Feel free to stop by Ultra anytime you want, bring the INS with, but be prepared to pull that foot out of your mouth. ALL of our workers are legal and VERY well paid. I actually don't know of any manufacturer that uses illegal workers.
Just because a worker is hispanic you assume they are illegal?
Just because someone can't afford a new boat, they shouldn't go around making accusations they can't back up.
I highly back up John on this one last year when I went to go and pick up my new 26 deck I was talking with the interior guys and the guys worked round the clock just to get my boat done while some finishing touches were being done I was talking to them, all said John West is a very good boss and he pays them REALLY well, and treats them very good and they said that Ultra is a very good and fair company to work for and they say they get treated the best.

[Big Warlock]

Feel free to stop by Ultra anytime you want, bring the INS with, but be prepared to pull that foot out of your mouth. ALL of our workers are legal and VERY well paid. I actually don't know of any manufacturer that uses illegal workers.
Just because a worker is hispanic you assume they are illegal?
Just because someone can't afford a new boat, they shouldn't go around making accusations they can't back up.
I thought alot of you prior to this post. You just jumped to the top of my list! Excellent response!
Rob

[Froggystyle]

There are TONS of illegals working in the boat business in So Cal. I know, because I am approached by them weekly looking for work with portfolios of work they have done for other manufacturers.
I have a strict no-illegal policy here, and for my subs. I am not going to be all high and mighty about it, but I promise you this, they are out there, they are building interiors, they are laying skincoats, they are building molds, they are shooting gel, they are sanding, polishing, repairing, cleaning, detailing and laminating every day.
I would say that the largest available pool of labor I have is illegal laminators if I wanted them. I have far more experienced laminators ask me for work than riggers or anything else. They are suprised every time when I tell them "no papers, no work". They offer to work under the table, piecework, cut wages, through the night etc...
This has been brought up before too...

[Baja Big Dog]

If your a Mexican you don't do shit, you don't know shit, and you get paid like shit...yada..yada....yada.....
Well mr Scrab Jet (did they make one?) along the line of Ultra, if and when you can afford a larger boat, non glastron type you may crap when you find that most of the work done on the boat was done by Mexicans..yea the unskilled ones that do flawless upholstery, and excellent lay up work, as well as gel coat experts, but how can that happen? They are all illegal and unskilled!!!
Come on man...you need a hug, maybe some attention? No problem, just ask, we will be glad to help you out.
P.S. The cleaner called, your white hood is ready for pick up!!!

[Big Warlock]

Just curious... Are there any boat builders (especially in California, Nevada and Arizona) that DON'T use illegal labor?
It just astounds me that we let them get away with the prices that they charge for new boats and at the same time they pay illegals whatever they want and break our laws at the same time...
No wonder that the only people that don't seem to be benefitting from this cottage industry are us middle class folks... I.e., the boat builders benefit by hiring cheap illegal workforce but still charge what the heck ever they want for building us a boat... and illegals benefit by making a hell of a lot more money than they would across the boarder and at the same time putting a US citizen who happens to be interested in working in the boat business out of work cause he couldn't possibly compete with the illegal labor rates that boat builders want to pay.
Somehow I know that some of you (especially the boat builders) will say the following... Well... can you imagine what we would have to charge you if we didn't have this illegal labor? To which I'd say... well rather not say it here...
So, fellow ***boaters... tell me... Am I totally out'a line here?
You have been here a long time (HB) but you don't post much. Two other threads I know you would enjoy are the "gas prices are kicking my butt" and the "Jimmy Carter" for president threads. Both excellent and you can easily continue your jenius mentality there! :D

[78Eliminator]

jenius
:D

[Big Warlock]

:D
Just having fun !!!! :D

[Jordy]

Just having fun !!!! :D
Nice way to try and cover up your spelling error assclown!!! :D :D :D

[Big Warlock]

I went to the Jordy school of spelling. It's at ASU right???:D

[Jordy]

I went to the Jordy school of spelling. It's at ASU right???:D
Hey, leave my 1.5 GPA out of this Mr. "I went to school where they teach terrorists to take off but not land" guy, although that does explain alot about your plane crashing ability!!! :D :D :D

[Big Warlock]

Hey, leave my 1.5 GPA out of this Mr. "I went to school where they teach terrorists to take off but not land" guy, although that does explain alot about your plane crashing ability!!! :D :D :D
Whatever! They didn't miss a building. Oh, there was the one they planted in a field in Virginia I think? Or Pa? I forget.

[Big Warlock]

But I do remember that W was responsible for that as well.

[Jordy]

But I do remember that W was responsible for that as well.
And you know if it's not W it's that f'kn Chuck Norris!!! :mad: :D :D :D

[Big Warlock]

And you know if it's not W it's that f'kn Chuck Norris!!! :mad: :D :D :D
Duh!!!! It certainly wasn't Hasselhof (sp?). He was drunk in Vegas!! :D

[Jordy]

Duh!!!! It certainly wasn't Hasselhof (sp?). He was drunk in Vegas!! :D
He did make it to my birthday party though. Don't know if you saw that pic... :D :D :D

[Big Warlock]

He did make it to my birthday party though. Don't know if you saw that pic... :D :D :D
I didn't see the pic???

[Jordy]

I didn't see the pic???
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/3251/16960s-birthday.gif

[Froggystyle]

http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/3251/16960s-birthday.gif
That might be the best chop yet... bold statement too... :D

[Scarab Jet]

If your a Mexican you don't do shit, you don't know shit, and you get paid like shit...yada..yada....yada.....
Well mr Scrab Jet (did they make one?) along the line of Ultra, if and when you can afford a larger boat, non glastron type you may crap when you find that most of the work done on the boat was done by Mexicans..yea the unskilled ones that do flawless upholstery, and excellent lay up work, as well as gel coat experts, but how can that happen? They are all illegal and unskilled!!!
Come on man...you need a hug, maybe some attention? No problem, just ask, we will be glad to help you out.
P.S. The cleaner called, your white hood is ready for pick up!!!
A few clarifications my good friend...
1) I actually own an 11-foot dingy and am striving to own an 17-foot Bayliner (that is when I can afford one)
2) I don't own a white hood (hell, I am not even a white guy... Actually look more Hispanic than White, but am really a mutt)
3) If by any chance you watch Lou Dobbs on CNN, and after reading all of these replies to my simple question (which could have been [rather] politely answered, instead of name-calling, etc.), I kind of relate to all the racist names that he is always being called just because he articulates what is good for America vs. some interest group... So, please forgive my divergence, but I don't think I should be called names just to ask for a clarification of an issue that was on my mind today... that's all...
4) I'd certainly would have appreciated the same reply that I received from a gentleman named Wes at Trident... Following my post, he sent me a PM letting me know as to his company's stand on only hiring US citizens and legal immigrants... He did it in a polite and professional way which I found refreshing... He didn't call me names or any other unnecessary phrase...
At any rate, if I offended anyone on this board by just asking a question [that I thought was relevant and appropriate on a boating forum], I apologize...
By the way, I am thinking about setting up a donation account for you and those who want to contribute to me qualifying for a bigger boat [preferably a Bayliner]... Just kidding my friend... I do like this board... I certainly hope it continues to attract members with diverse points of view [which is what makes it fun to visit]...
Take care my hot boat friend...

[voodoomedman]

Feel free to stop by Ultra anytime you want, bring the INS with, but be prepared to pull that foot out of your mouth. ALL of our workers are legal and VERY well paid. I actually don't know of any manufacturer that uses illegal workers.
Just because a worker is hispanic you assume they are illegal?
Just because someone can't afford a new boat, they shouldn't go around making accusations they can't back up.Apparently they do great work for real cheap. How about using them for a new 28 build for and you can afford to sell it to me for half price. :D

[Magic34]

if only to raise the IQ of the board by at least 50 points. ;)
Damn SB, feeling generous today?

[Magic34]

http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/3251/16960s-birthday.gif
LMAO!!!!

[3 daytona`s]

A few clarifications my good friend...
1) I actually own an 11-foot dingy and am striving to own an 17-foot Bayliner (that is when I can afford one)
2) I don't own a white hood (hell, I am not even a white guy... Actually look more Hispanic than White, but am really a mutt)
3) If by any chance you watch Lou Dobbs on CNN, and after reading all of these replies to my simple question (which could have been [rather] politely answered, instead of name-calling, etc.), I kind of relate to all the racist names that he is always being called just because he articulates what is good for America vs. some interest group... So, please forgive my divergence, but I don't think I should be called names just to ask for a clarification of an issue that was on my mind today... that's all...
4) I'd certainly would have appreciated the same reply that I received from a gentleman named Wes at Trident... Following my post, he sent me a PM letting me know as to his company's stand on only hiring US citizens and legal immigrants... He did it in a polite and professional way which I found refreshing... He didn't call me names or any other unnecessary phrase...
At any rate, if I offended anyone on this board by just asking a question [that I thought was relevant and appropriate on a boating forum], I apologize...
By the way, I am thinking about setting up a donation account for you and those who want to contribute to me qualifying for a bigger boat [preferably a Bayliner]... Just kidding my friend... I do like this board... I certainly hope it continues to attract members with diverse points of view [which is what makes it fun to visit]...
Take care my hot boat friend...
I want to compliment you on the way you have handled this question answer series. This place has sadly turned into the gutter trash the majority of society has become. Good Job:)

[SHOTKALLIN]

There are TONS of illegals working in the boat business in So Cal. I know, because I am approached by them weekly looking for work with portfolios of work they have done for other manufacturers.
I have a strict no-illegal policy here, and for my subs. I am not going to be all high and mighty about it, but I promise you this, they are out there, they are building interiors, they are laying skincoats, they are building molds, they are shooting gel, they are sanding, polishing, repairing, cleaning, detailing and laminating every day.
I would say that the largest available pool of labor I have is illegal laminators if I wanted them. I have far more experienced laminators ask me for work than riggers or anything else. They are suprised every time when I tell them "no papers, no work". They offer to work under the table, piecework, cut wages, through the night etc...
This has been brought up before too...
Wes, you are a true American. Anyone ever been to the Weekend Warrior factory in Perris? The Commander factory in Perris? Looks mighty suspect.

[Jbb]

Look at Froggy......all ....mending fences........and shit...:D

[Racey]

This guy obviously hasn't been told how expensive materials cost and how much work goes into building a boat. :D:D:D:D:D

[KineticoH20]

Feel free to stop by Ultra anytime you want, bring the INS with, but be prepared to pull that foot out of your mouth. ALL of our workers are legal and VERY well paid. I actually don't know of any manufacturer that uses illegal workers.
Just because a worker is hispanic you assume they are illegal?
Just because someone can't afford a new boat, they shouldn't go around making accusations they can't back up.
That hit a nerve didn't it JW? I have hispanic workers too maybe my industry needs the INS also. What a distastefull thing to say unless you had proof and even then what purpose does it do posting it on HB. Just another loser trying to be witty and..............not!

[Froggystyle]

Don't get me wrong, I have reasons for doing it other than being a good American... I think that a huge number of the illegals that have approached me have been likely superior wet laminators to the legal guys I have had to hire instead. I have made efforts to see what kind of sponsorship I can do for a Maquiladoro program or otherwise and it just isn't realistic.
One of the big reasons I went to resin infusion instead of wet lamination is the huge preponderance of illegal labor in the wet lamination field. I felt that someday I would likely be forced to use illegal labor due to a greatly reduced available workforce in the legal side of it, and wanted no part of it. Not because of the quality of the worker, but because of the "illegal" part of the situation. It is against the law. It doesn't matter if it is enforced or not, I won't put my clients, investors or partners up against a wall like that. We are building on a foundation of ethics before all else, and this is part of it.
It would be easier to get away with in our industry than elsewhere too, because laminators in SoCal and Arizona traditionally don't come to work until 7:00 at night, and leave about dawn to catch the cooler weather so the resin doesn't cook off as quickly. You laminate on weekends, ready to build for the week etc...
Most of the manufacturers will have a purely legal force running around during the day. It is the night shift/weekend shift, people building the tools behind the scenes, sub contractors, interiors etc... where the vast majority of illegal labor is utilized. When that boat is magically sanded and polished the day after it is popped... well, that happened the previous night.
There are multiple components of my boat that were to a large degree designed and built from conception to eliminate the need for illegal labor. My interior is CAD cut out of a thermoplastic by a CNC router. It shows up essentially ready to install. My seat covers are also cut out by CNC, but are sewn by a guy out here in East County that has owned his own business for 30 years. We install them.
The resin infusion process doesn't lend itself to illegal labor very well. It is highly skilled also, but with a 180 degree out mentality from wet lamination. It is precise to a fault, finicky and complicated. You need to be very, very methodical and consistant. This is one of the reasons that many boat companies trying infusion are running up against such resistance... tough to retrain the labor that isn't already known for these skills. Plus, once you have invested the training in these folks, what is to keep them from leaving and going somewhere with slightly higher pay?
The biggest reason I don't have illegal or piecework employees is I need accountability. All of my guys want to be at work the next day, and I pay them enough that firing them would really hurt. This is the best job any have ever had, by a lot. That said I have had 28 employees over the last two years, and retained six of them. I expect a lot, and have had a high turnover as a result. People that have worked for me and left have gone on to start their own companies, innovate in other areas and one actually built their own boat company up in Canada. In any case, I want to know where they live, I need them to be able to get to work on time and be accountable for failures or successes.
Lastly, labor is a relatively insignificant expense compared to the price of the boat. I could save more money using Chinese fiberglass cloth (that you would never know the difference once laminate) than illegal labor. Far less than 15% of my cost to build is labor.
Figure on my $165K retail Ilmor powered Revolution, the engine and drive, with steering is nearly $60,000. That is just the propulsion system. You can see that while we are selling that boat now for $145,000 wholesale in the near term, there isn't a whole lot of margin for labor considering the price to build the boat. I will have $30K in materials and labor into the bare hull before we even begin to work on it or rig it. Figure that one. Selling a boat for $145K, with over 90K into the hull and engine.
Labor doesn't stack up.
People are using illegal labor because for wet lamination, it is the largest and most available labor pool. They ask the least in terms of money and benefits, and you don't need to provide OSHA compliance for laborers that don't exist. If you farm out that aspect to a different company altogether, what do you care what the legal status of the workers are? It isn't on your roster... The sub goes down in the event of an inspection, and most know enough to cover their own asses in the event of one.
What you would be flat out amazed to hear is the shear amount of tax returns that are sitting in the IRS because the illegal labor can't collect it.
I think the system is broken, but much like my twin jet fiasco, I won't be the one to fix it.
Thanks for the good words everyone...

[echo]

2) I don't own a white hood (hell, I am not even a white guy... Actually look more Hispanic than White, but am really a mutt)
3) If by any chance you watch Lou Dobbs on CNN, and after reading all of these replies to my simple
lou dobbs is a burned out loser,cnn has tried everything to promote this guy.

[TheGoldenHeeb]

don't see to many colored people in the boating industry. So yeah, it's full of racists.

[spectras only]

Froggy , here's a link that might interest you . I know Paul the owner who started this years ago .
http://www.nava.ca/

[shippingguy]

It's not that they can't afford to buy your boats it's that they can't afford to fix them.:sqeyes:
You really are a dipshit huh?

[Froggystyle]

Froggy , here's a link that might interest you . I know Paul the owner who started this years ago .
http://www.nava.ca/
Nice looking boat! Resin infusion is big in the Northwest on larger craft where the weight savings amounts to a huge cost savings in material as well. That is where I brought some of my experts down from Boeing and other locales...

[Baja Big Dog]

A few clarifications my good friend...
1) I actually own an 11-foot dingy and am striving to own an 17-foot Bayliner (that is when I can afford one)
2) I don't own a white hood (hell, I am not even a white guy... Actually look more Hispanic than White, but am really a mutt)
3) If by any chance you watch Lou Dobbs on CNN, and after reading all of these replies to my simple question (which could have been [rather] politely answered, instead of name-calling, etc.), I kind of relate to all the racist names that he is always being called just because he articulates what is good for America vs. some interest group... So, please forgive my divergence, but I don't think I should be called names just to ask for a clarification of an issue that was on my mind today... that's all...
4) I'd certainly would have appreciated the same reply that I received from a gentleman named Wes at Trident... Following my post, he sent me a PM letting me know as to his company's stand on only hiring US citizens and legal immigrants... He did it in a polite and professional way which I found refreshing... He didn't call me names or any other unnecessary phrase...
At any rate, if I offended anyone on this board by just asking a question [that I thought was relevant and appropriate on a boating forum], I apologize...
By the way, I am thinking about setting up a donation account for you and those who want to contribute to me qualifying for a bigger boat [preferably a Bayliner]... Just kidding my friend... I do like this board... I certainly hope it continues to attract members with diverse points of view [which is what makes it fun to visit]...
Take care my hot boat friend...
Dude...
#1...Me too
#2...Me too
#3...No chance, Lou Dobbs in MY opinion is an idiot, so i don't listen to him.
You call it a simple question, simple maybe but a very deep question, and your back up for the "simple question" (boat builders raping us by making huge profits because they hire only illegal workers) is an opinion, not fact.
"Name calling", I had to re-read my post numerous times, and I do not know what you are talking about, if it was the "Mr Scarab Jet" name, well its only highlighting your screen name, that you picked, not me.
#4...You didn't get the same PM from Ultra, he invited you to visit his shop, and bring the INS to prove your comments wrong...you failed to comment on his invitation.
There is no need to apologize to me and may I speak for the other members of the board for anything you say, that is why its called a forum, and thank God its the HB forum, where we are free to call each other names without being hammered.
The fund sounds fine, but I will insist you split it with me so I can get one of my three hammered props off of my 115 hp outboard pontoon motor fixed!!!