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DEL51
11-12-2001, 10:42 AM
I have checked out the cost of new v-drives and was considering a used one for now.I thought maybe i should get my hands on a pre owned one rather than go all out.I am into 18-21 ft models and I would like to know what would make a good choice for a lake racer. i would like to keep the initial cost to under 10,000.Is this reasonable?

schiada96
11-12-2001, 11:05 AM
I'm kind of biased as to what to pick. But you can find Bissmeyer circle boats from time to time for under 10 grand they would be a great choice. If you are looking to cruse in any kind of water you should probably stay away from flatbottoms.

SPECTRABRENT
11-12-2001, 11:44 AM
For $10,000.00 and under I would look @ Spectra, Howard, Hallett, Campbell. Schiadas would most likely be out of the price range.
Brent

Jim S
11-12-2001, 12:37 PM
$10,000 is not unreasonable. In fact I may want to sell mine. I've got an 18' Hallett Mini with a Race Aero turbo engine. It is an older ski race boat. I just haven't got up the courage to place add just yet. Let me know if you would like me to email some photos.
You could find some older ski race boats but the turbo motors generally make them expensive. Also, an older circle boat would be in that price range.
I have considered having a new hull laid up for me. The circle boat hulls are available from several guys for $6000 with underwater gear installed. You could have a boat together for less than $12,000 if you do the work yourself.
Jim

superdave013
11-12-2001, 12:59 PM
Jim S, I gotta ask. Who will do you a new circle boat that cheap? I know the Rayson crafts cost way more. If you don't mind, I would like to see some pics of your boat.

126driver
11-12-2001, 01:13 PM
I'm with SuperDave. Just curious who offers a hull w/ underwater gear for 6K. Not saying it's impossible, but a Biesemeyer with strut & fin with no bottom work is (was) 9K. Rigged with a race bottom and you're looking at an easy 30K. My .02.
Gotta love those old ski race boats. One of these days I'm going to own a blown Hallet Vector for a play boat.
Scott

Jim S
11-12-2001, 01:53 PM
I have talked to Joe Cucci, John Hart (Revenge) and Lance Faulkner and all three will build a hull with white gelcoat, strut, hole for strut and lower rudder stuffing box for $6k. I was told that some these boats may require work on the bottom and I would love to know what is required beside bolting on the plates and v-drive.
I don't know anything about tuning a circle flatbottom. The rules don't allow much room to change the shape of the bottom but I am sure there are tricks to get it just so.
If anyone knows what you can change to make the boat handle differently I would like to know the basics.
Jim

84Keaton
11-12-2001, 04:10 PM
Jim S,
Your 18' Hallett Mini sounds very interesting. Could you send me some pics and more info at rdnickelson@home.com
I have an 18' Keaton jet and am in the same position as you - just haven't brought myselt to post an ad. It's a great ski boat, but i'm looking for more speed.

CrazyHippy
11-12-2001, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by Jim S:
I have talked to Joe Cucci, John Hart (Revenge) and Lance Faulkner and all three will build a hull with white gelcoat, strut, hole for strut and lower rudder stuffing box for $6k. I was told that some these boats may require work on the bottom and I would love to know what is required beside bolting on the plates and v-drive.
I don't know anything about tuning a circle flatbottom. The rules don't allow much room to change the shape of the bottom but I am sure there are tricks to get it just so.
If anyone knows what you can change to make the boat handle differently I would like to know the basics.
Jim
So how much work would it be to finish a boat from there. I have built jeep from the frame out, doing a boat like that might be neat (not to mention easier on the budget)
BJH

058
11-13-2001, 09:58 AM
There are several older good solid boats for sale that may need some attention or minor repair. How about doing a restoration project on a 70s-80s Sanger, Howard, Hondo or Cole. This would be well within your initial budget of 10K. You could continue the restoration later as your funds permit. The last 3 or 4 boats I've bought were less engine, price was right and I could build an engine myself, that way I built what I wanted and I knew what was in it. Too many times I've seen someone buy a boat with a so-called "rebuilt" engine and it turned out to be a "Du Pont" overhaul. Totally junk inside.

hottrodder
11-13-2001, 10:16 AM
There was a guy on here not long ago posting about a vintage Mandella (http://free.***boat.net/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000092.html). These boats are heavy so they don't make the best 1/4 mile blasters but they can handle the rough stuff. And with their slight V the ride may not be quite as jarring.
OK. I'm done. I'll step off the Mandella soap box.

schiada96
11-13-2001, 01:38 PM
Crazy Hippie
It is a lot of work to rig and finish a boat from a bare hull. I took a bare hull from schiada it took 3+ years of working on week ends to get it done. As for costs the hull was 11,k ellis trailer 3k plus all materials.Prop, v-drive, prop shaft, strut whip strut, rudder, steering it is a long list not to mention a motor plus just getting the stuff you need to the boat. I don't think I'd recomend it for a first boat. I know I would not do it again. But I'm proud of mine!! A cheap way to go yes but I can't see completing any new hulled
v-drive for less than 20 k on a trailer doing the work yourself. Jesus just buy a prop shaft K-500 monel $13.50 a pound then machine the ends.

superdave013
11-13-2001, 01:54 PM
I agree with schiada96 on this one. I wanted to get a new Rayson Craft and rig it myself. I had a lot of parts already including a complete blown big block that was all set up for a v-drive.
I know that would have cost me over 20K to get the blank hull and rig it less engine. I even have a mill and lathe and could make most of the parts myself. Just the cav plate hardware would cost you over a grand!
I ended up buying an older schiada with a running twin turbo engine for less. Drove it for a season. Now I'm redoing some things to it and that's a big project.
Oh, schiada96, the engine is comming together slow! I don't have any time. To busy making parts for everyone else.

Costello
11-13-2001, 09:27 PM
Going back to Del's initial post, here's my take on it. There is a huge difference in buying an 18 foot V-Drive a flat let's say, and a 21' Daycruiser style boat. An 18' will usually allow 1 passenger who is comfortable and 2 others who are not at best. A 21' will allow 5-7 passengers plus all of your ice chests, camping equipment and whatever else you want to bring with you. I love a nice flatty, but at this stage in my "boating career" (3rd boat not counting my parents' as a youth) I would only have one as a second boat. I just bought a 21' Daycruiser and it's really all I've ever wanted in a boat and never knew it until now.

boatguy222
11-14-2001, 06:10 PM
If your serious about a Biesemeyer, I have a Bezer for sale, It a good boat for a first time owner, fast and comes down straght every time. $8500 less engine, but I have power available. can e-mail pictures
let me know ,
Marc

taboo
11-14-2001, 06:25 PM
I have a nice sanger 18.3 flat bottom for sale it is sa blown 468 big block new water pump all braided lines wing stacked stainless fuel tank whirlaway two seater vertex mag I think the motor should be worth the price of everything the trailer is real trick even has chrome axles and springhs lights are all frenched in mag wheels almost new tires permant plates located in phoenix az

Jim S
11-15-2001, 07:27 AM
SuperDave,
You asked for pictures of the turbo Hallett. I don't have a way of posting a couple but I can email them to you and you may post them if you like.
Do you know anything about setting up the bottom of a cirle flat? Hart claims his Revenge really don't need any bottom work to get it right but he said Cucci's need a little work. What needs to be done? Do you want the bottom flat (longitudinally) or do you add some rocker?
Just interested.
Jim

superdave013
11-15-2001, 08:28 AM
Originally posted by Jim S:
SuperDave,
You asked for pictures of the turbo Hallett. I don't have a way of posting a couple but I can email them to you and you may post them if you like.
Do you know anything about setting up the bottom of a cirle flat? Hart claims his Revenge really don't need any bottom work to get it right but he said Cucci's need a little work. What needs to be done? Do you want the bottom flat (longitudinally) or do you add some rocker?
Just interested.
Jim
I would love to see your pics and will post them for you too. Send them to daveb@adwest.cc
I have no idea about setting up a circle flat. Ask 126driver or LeE ss13. I would think if your not racing they will be fine right out of the mold. From what I am told they have a slight twist in the bottom to help them turn left.
The also hook the drive shaft to the balancer end of the engine so the prop tourqe helps with turning. I have watched them (hopefully driving one soon) and they do turn left very well.
So are you thinking about going racing?

DEL51
11-17-2001, 12:36 AM
I just received a couple of boat trader mags from cal and az.I am looking them over.I like the Daycruiser idea but I have a question about the speed.How much horsepower does it take to reach 95mph in a 21 ft cruiser? I sold my sanger jet last year.This would not be my first boat,just my first v-drive.I am open minded regarding the 18ft-21ft size,but I want to beat my jet boat friends on the top end.I think v drives are very cool and interesting but my lack of experience with them and the characteristics are of some concern.Bottom line is I would like to get the best bang for the buck.I do have a blown 572 ready to go in a boat.I am not in any rush to jump on something,I am trying to learn before i go out and make a purchase.I really appreciate all the responses!I wish i could get a hold of an old manual or something written so I could visually identify all the hardware.Thanks to all who posted and I will be asking more questions,so please be patient.Some of my questions may seem stupid.Thanks!DEL51

superdave013
11-17-2001, 05:37 AM
A good to go blown 572 would push a 21' Daycruiser 100mph easy. A weak turbo 461" pushed my 20' schiada 88mph. It really was a suck ass engine too. I'm building a 572 now and expect my boat to haul ass.
To look at v-drive parts check out a Rex marine catalog.

Costello
11-17-2001, 08:04 AM
100 mph 21'ers are BADASS!!!! Literally the best of both worlds.

schiada96
11-17-2001, 08:48 AM
I don't know but Lee at Schiada says 650 for 85 in a 21ft river cruser and about a 950 for a 100 mph. With a transmission these boats will put a hurt on alot of boats in kind of bad water. Its fun to pick on all the big expensive cats -- except at 100 +. You just have to pick the race.

Costello
11-17-2001, 09:55 AM
A Blown 572" Chevy on gas has to making 950 unless it's got serious issues. You could make 950 hp pretty easy with a 572" with carbs!!! Del, www.traderonline.com (http://www.traderonline.com) is the way that you can keep an eye on the marketplace nationwide. (I'm giving up my secrets, but I'm done buying boats for a while) I try to keep my search broad by making no preferences in price or type, and smaller by limiting the state you search in one by one. CA and AZ will have the selection and better pricing as there is an abundance of these boats around, although I am still puzzled by Dan66 I think it was who picked up a Sciada 21' V-Drive for $2500 back east somewhere. Don't limit your searches to power boats only. I have found several under "sail" that were merely in the wrong category. Search 20' All in one state, then 21' and so on. The keyword feature will limit what you find, stay away from it if you want an extensive search. Good Luck.
[This message has been edited by Costello (edited November 17, 2001).]

schiada96
11-17-2001, 03:43 PM
Yeah Dan got a deal on that boat. It is the old style hull. Great solid boat just a little larger with a 10 taller side and about 700lbs heavier than a 21ft rc. Most of the older large style hulls run a C-500
v-drive they are 12 degrees so that makes a steeper propshaft angle. That dosent mean they wont go, just harder to get them past 85 or 90. You can't go wrong with one of them. Schiadas last.
[This message has been edited by schiada96 (edited November 17, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by schiada96 (edited November 17, 2001).]

boatguy222
11-17-2001, 05:06 PM
Del
I have the same hull as SD (20' schiada) i'm doing a hull-up rebuild on it now, with the trany and c-500, and a good two blade prop I think it will run right at 100mph with my 500" asperated engine in it.
My dad has a 21' Schiada river cruser, with a 540" single carbed engine and it runs at 85mph on pump gas.
Yes it can be done with the right set up
Marc

Costello
11-17-2001, 09:58 PM
Schiada, Hang Fin has the C-500 in his 21' Daytona crusier. I got lucky and have the 10 degree HD split case in my Di Marco. Boatguy, do most of the Marathon boats use a two blade on their setup? I have never seen a two blade on a big hull like these. I'm sure it would help you at top speed, and the tranny may keep it from being too much of a dog out of the hole. Other than Harold or Dallas, who is making good props for these larger boats?

superdave013
11-17-2001, 10:17 PM
Costello,
All of the GN boat that I have looked at had two blade props.
My 20' Schiada has an 11 3/8 X 16 menkins s.s. two blade. It was an ex ski race boat. Works good with a light load. With 5 people it still gets on plane but burns pretty good on the way. I don't care as it still will pull skiers and haul ass too.

boatguy222
11-18-2001, 12:46 AM
costello,
SD is right, most everyone runs a two blade for top end preformance. the wide ear prop is the way to go for the v bottom boats. Harold is the MAN! He can work wonders and he doesn't have the problems Dalles has getting things done, at least that my experence.
It's a good idea to have a least 2 props anyway. I have a two blade for top end runs and a steel 3 blade for family type outings.
I would stay away from the stainless steel props, if you have very much horsepower, (over 600hp) they will lose there ears.
Marc

DEL51
11-18-2001, 12:55 AM
Thanks for the search tips and the Idea about the rex catalog.I will keep you all posted when i am ready to make the move.Sincerely,DEL51

superdave013
11-18-2001, 06:35 AM
DEL51,
You need to find something like this.
This is a pic of my boat as it's getting some slight changes made to it.
http://wsphotofews.excite.com/014/l2/Ab/Fj/gu26634.jpg

schiada96
11-18-2001, 08:23 AM
I'm running a 3 blade ss menkins 11.375 x 16.25 no problems so far with 45's in the v-drive. I've heard of problems. I've also have a friend who has a boat just like mine. Before I finished mine we tried alot of two blades, big ears with a lot of pitch on his we couldn't get it to go. We both are pretty good about having the props x-rayed and magged. An ear off a prop and your in for a big bill.
Hang,
Dennis didn't tell me you had a cruser.
[This message has been edited by schiada96 (edited November 18, 2001).]

Costello
11-18-2001, 09:46 AM
Boatguy and Dave, thanks for the info, I'm ignorant about race setup outside of drag stuff, and pretty ignorant about that too really. I was at Pisciotta's place a few weeks ago and he is doing the engine on a blown Connnely 21' V-Drive. He says Harold only has a few of the 3 blade units for bigger boats left at present. I don't know exactly what he's doing, but the business(Harold's) was for sale a few months ago so I don't know if there will be anymore of them produced. Schiada 96, Tony just bought an 83 Daytona with a twin Gale Banks setup on a 555 ci Chevy. It is a very nice ride.

boatguy222
11-18-2001, 10:18 PM
Costello
Are you looking for a 3 blade prop? I have a 12x14 Menkens 3 blade for a 1" shaft, that came with the Schiada, It's to big for the 20'er, I would let it go for $350,It is fresh back from Harold, He said that checked out fine, it does has a welding inclusion on the hub, but It was not a problem, and was there from day one of manufacture.
let me know,
Marc

Jim S
11-19-2001, 06:11 AM
DEL51,
You asked about the amount of power to drive a day cruiser. Super Dave posted a picture of my 18' Hallett Mini. I has a Race Aero 454 running about 12 pounds of boost. The split case Casale now has 37% gears turning a 11 x 14 two blade. It will pull about 6000 rpm. I don't know how much power but I am sure it is less than a Schiada requires. The Hallett has a raduis keel so it gets a little squirrelly at high speed.
Jim

Costello
11-19-2001, 05:58 PM
Boatguy, I'll snap that up from you. E-mail me where you're at and I'll either A) pick it up, or B) send you the money so you can ship it. www.dragboatforums@aol.com (http://www.dragboatforums@aol.com)

boatguy222
11-19-2001, 07:39 PM
Costello,
you've got mail
Marc

superdave013
11-19-2001, 08:38 PM
Marc, I find it kind of odd that your boat has a C-500 with a 1" propshaft. Mine has the quickchange with an 1 1/8" shaft. Makes me wounder if mine had a C-500 at one time.

126driver
11-19-2001, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by superdave013:
Originally posted by Jim S:
SuperDave,
Do you know anything about setting up the bottom of a cirle flat? Hart claims his Revenge really don't need any bottom work to get it right but he said Cucci's need a little work. What needs to be done? Do you want the bottom flat (longitudinally) or do you add some rocker?
Just interested.
Jim
I would love to see your pics and will post them for you too. Send them to daveb@adwest.cc
I have no idea about setting up a circle flat. Ask 126driver or LeE ss13. I would think if your not racing they will be fine right out of the mold. From what I am told they have a slight twist in the bottom to help them turn left.
The also hook the drive shaft to the balancer end of the engine so the prop tourqe helps with turning. I have watched them (hopefully driving one soon) and they do turn left very well.
So are you thinking about going racing?
Sorry for the late post. We were leaning against my upside-down boat tonight having a few smart-drinks and discussing what it would cost to layup a hull with strut and fin. $6,000 to $6,500 seems about right we agreed, but that's cost. I know Lance personally, and don't mean to doubt Cucci and Hart either, but for an out-the-door hull, that still seems cheap to me. Hey; I've been wrong an untold amount times before and if so in this regard, I stand corrected. As far as the bottom setup, I think that any of those boats out of the mold would be ok for a lake boat. If you want to set it up as a race-ready circle boat, I know for a fact that the Beisemeyer mold is not a legal hull. It takes some work to meet the requirements of the APBA rule book. Everyone I know works the bottom over extensively for a race application, and from my viewpoint it seems to be all voodoo, witchcraft and reading tea leaves! There is quite a few opinions to an ideal circle boat bottom, most of them treated as closely guarded secrets. Personal experience has shown me that some work, some don't. That's why my boat has been upside-down for the majority of this season.
IMHO, yeah, you want a certain amount of rocker to make the boat take a set. Some allowance also needs to be made to relieve trapped air underneath the bottom. Yes, most purpose-built circle boats are slightly twisted as Superdave said, actually twisted in a jig before the deck is set on and tabbed. There are a lot of small details that can make a big difference. My boat set perfectly and carried the fins all the way down the straightaway in test water or if I was in front (very rare), but throw some racewater chop in the mix and the boat was undrivable. Figure that. I am big-time far from being an expert on boat setups; I'm just telling you what I have been able to learn. I was shown a few areas that looked minor to me and were past the 28" mark, but the guy doing my bottom now is confident it will make a big difference. I asked him the other day how many flatbottoms he has built over the decades and he told me probably around 300 plus! He also told me that a lot of the molds that are around today are a splash off of one original mold. He pointed out one particular area on the bottom of my boat that has a distinguishing mark and told me that no one has ever fixed it because it's hard to see and doesn't affect handling due to the location. I then looked at several of the ten flatbottoms that are there right now, (not all Biesemeyers) and most of them had this distinguishing mark!
Anyways, sorry for the long-winded post. I'm sure any of those guys could build you a killer race boat or lake boat hull depending on what your needs are. Good luck!
Scott
(PS Stupid damned smiley-faces. I keep forgetting to check it before posting.)
[This message has been edited by 126driver (edited November 19, 2001).]

superdave013
11-19-2001, 09:14 PM
Scott, You say "I know for a fact that the Beisemeyer mold is not a legal hull. It takes some work to meet the requirements of the APBA rule book."
Why, what rule is it not meeting? Do you think I can get a copy of the rule book at the race this weekend?

126driver
11-19-2001, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by superdave013:
Scott, You say "I know for a fact that the Beisemeyer mold is not a legal hull. It takes some work to meet the requirements of the APBA rule book."
Why, what rule is it not meeting? Do you think I can get a copy of the rule book at the race this weekend?
It's a "technicality" (sp?) not something that might make the boat faster or slower, and something hardly ever checked (I've never seen a bottom inspected), unless a record is set. I'll check the specfic rule when I get to work tomorrow. My rule book is in my office. I don't know if any spare rule books will be floating around at the river this weekend. They send you a new one each year when you register for a competition membership. That means you'll have one soon, right?! I'll give you my '01 rule book if you want. I just haven't decided if I'm going to go and spectate this weekend.
Scott

boatguy222
11-19-2001, 10:48 PM
Dave
My dad rigged this boat in 79, w/ the c-500. I beleive that Schiada did not put the c-500 in the 20's unless it was a special order, Most of the racers wanted the split case anyway, because the gears are way easier to change and the case is much easier to brace, the c-500 moves around in the rubber mounts, I had to really think about the braces I am building for mine.
The 1" propshaft had some early problems twisting in two with the turbo 400 shifting, I hope that I can get away with it, with about 200 more horsepower that it had in it orginally.
BTW are you still driving one of Larry's boats this weekend? If so which one? ss-13?
marc

superdave013
11-20-2001, 05:47 AM
Nope, I will not be driving anything other that a cooler this weekend. Larry can't make the race as he has work obligations. I don't think I would have been driving this race anyway. That is the plan but we need to get me some seat time in the boat before an event. Hey, I'm ready!
I never shift my boat. I just stick it in high and go. I guess if I was racing a jet from an idle I might.

Jim S
11-21-2001, 12:56 PM
Scott,
Thanks for the info! There is nothing that drives me more crazy than designing or tuning something with witchcraft or tea leaves. Ben Franklin has said something the to effect "Experience keeps an expensive school but some fools will learn no other way." As an engineer I appreciate experience but I would like to put together a flat without having to build 300 of them before I get it right.
Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a manual which explains all the details. Being here in the Detroit area there are not too many people who know about these things.
Do you know what your tuner is doing to the bottom to make it right. Your problem is exactly what I was wondering. You were able to get the boat to run well under one operating condition (smooth water) but not in another condition. What do I need to do to a new hull to get it to run well in as many conditions as possible.
The reason I asked about the bottom needing some rocker is that the APBA dimensions for the cracker box hull has a noticable rocker right from the start without any tuning. I just thought the flatbottoms may need the same.
This should probably be continued in another post.
If anyone knows some of the details of tuning a flatbottom for circle racing and is willing to share please chime in.
Jim

schiada96
11-21-2001, 01:47 PM
Boatguy 222 I have made some braces for a friends rc that had a c-500. We didnt have trouble with it moving side to side just trying to rotate under load. I just took four 5/8 stainless rods, tapped both ends put longer bolts in the v-drive and made a plate to bolt to tailshaft housing on the trans. This lasted well till he spit an ear off a prop that should have been checked!! Now he runs a split case. I'm running a 1.00 K-500 propshaft with no problems so far.

boatguy222
11-21-2001, 03:54 PM
schiada96,
I would be interested in see a picture or two of your c-500 brace design. I know the Rex Marine offered some in their early days, but I never like the way they looked.
I think my prop shaft is a k-monel(sp)
In a earlier post you said that you were running a stainless prop, how much horspower do you have? and how often do you get it checked?
Thanks
Marc

schiada96
11-21-2001, 08:02 PM
Boatguy I don't know how much hp I have,its never been on a dyno. The boat has run close to a hundred mph. Everyone I talk to says about 950hp. Some feel I'd be better off with a steel two blade I've never run one. Schiadas are cool ya know but my wife just brought me my 4 month old daughter, my first and it makes me think of what realy matters. Have a happy t-day