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View Full Version : Stupid Performance Question im sure??



Concept1
07-10-2007, 10:55 AM
Without starting a frenzy here i was wondering if there is an explination why marine performance is so much more expensive then cars?? Is it that boats are usually toys and the performance makers know that so they charge more? Ive been looking into motors, performance add ons and some other stuff for a while now. I just cant believe that a 625 HP Merc, or Ilmor motor is in the 85K range. Add ons arent any better either, I just looked at Raylar kits and its 7K for 100 HP kits and its heads, manifold and cam. I know you can do that to any car for 1K at the most. By the time the Raylar kit is installed with headers its going to be 14K or so. Man im starting to hate performance prices. O.K. im done complaining.....:(

vee-driven
07-10-2007, 11:00 AM
Because people will pay!

Cole Trickle
07-10-2007, 11:02 AM
Without starting a frenzy here i was wondering if there is an explination why marine performance is so much more expensive then cars?? Is it that boats are usually toys and the performance makers know that so they charge more? Ive been looking into motors, performance add ons and some other stuff for a while now. I just cant believe that a 625 HP Merc, or Ilmor motor is in the 85K range. Add ons arent any better either, I just looked at Raylar kits and its 7K for 100 HP kits and its heads, manifold and cam. I know you can do that to any car for 1K at the most. By the time the Raylar kit is installed with headers its going to be 14K or so. Man im starting to hate performance prices. O.K. im done complaining.....:(
Yeah the performance compaines pretty much have you by the balls....:(
1K is a little cheap for heads and cam unless your talking about a sbc with crappy heads but I hear ya. You would think that 5K might get you the raylar kit with the dana headers.
I think the key is to enjoy it for what it is.....great 70mph cruiser thats dead reliable. Keep the current boat and then scoop up a 2 seat SVT with a o/b for your hot rod needs;):D

BrendellaJet
07-10-2007, 11:03 AM
throw a 1k Head, manifold & cam kit on a boat and see how it performs compared to the 7k kit.
Boat motors are special. They work in a harsh environment. Mass production tolerances that you can get away with in a car will fail in a boat.

Concept1
07-10-2007, 11:03 AM
Yea Im still trying to scoop up the Trident for my performance needs, shit i should just take the loss on my boat and buy the Trident and forget about it. After i put 20K into my boat to make it go 85 or so its still a waste since Wes's does 93 out of the box with a 550. I still love that boat more then anything.

Cole Trickle
07-10-2007, 11:08 AM
Yea Im still trying to scoop up the Trident for my performance needs, shit i should just take the loss on my boat and buy the Trident and forget about it. After i put 20K into my boat to make it go 85 or so its still a waste since Wes's does 93 out of the box with a 550. I still love that boat more then anything.
go for it before someone swoops on the 710 deal;):D
Sadly I think you paid a little high for your boat so it's never gonna make sence to sell it for a 50K loss. Do what makes you happy but investing more money in a depreciating asset for 15 mph sucks:)

Concept1
07-10-2007, 11:11 AM
Yep you are right! Thats what makes it tough. I just cant get myself to sink money into this thing when the Trident has my full attention. I wonder if you can still sell kidneys on ebay! :D

RiverDave
07-10-2007, 11:13 AM
Without starting a frenzy here i was wondering if there is an explination why marine performance is so much more expensive then cars?? Is it that boats are usually toys and the performance makers know that so they charge more? Ive been looking into motors, performance add ons and some other stuff for a while now. I just cant believe that a 625 HP Merc, or Ilmor motor is in the 85K range. Add ons arent any better either, I just looked at Raylar kits and its 7K for 100 HP kits and its heads, manifold and cam. I know you can do that to any car for 1K at the most. By the time the Raylar kit is installed with headers its going to be 14K or so. Man im starting to hate performance prices. O.K. im done complaining.....:(
85K for an Ilmore? That better be including some bad ass drive, external steering and some other shiznit..
You can buy a brummet twin turbo motor for less then that!
RD

Havasu Hangin'
07-10-2007, 11:19 AM
Marine stuff is low volume compared to cars.
Low volume means higher margins (if you want to stay in business).

Jyruiz
07-10-2007, 11:19 AM
Anything that has to do with boats is expensive, even more so for the power in them. It sucks, but they have us by the short hairs. I am just glad I am not into speed, otherwise I would not be able to afford anything else.

Not So Fast
07-10-2007, 11:28 AM
Do you dislike your boat that much to take that kind of hit:confused: I like other boats also but damn, get over it unless the Next is a pile, it looks good and runs extremely well. Use it for a couple of years at least!!
It is the same sort of dealio when comparing after market for a Rhino to Golf Carts, usually a good 40% higher for Rhino crap and I'm not talking exotic suspension either, just after market in general. Your boat is hot, enjoy it:D NSF

superdave013
07-10-2007, 11:32 AM
Marine stuff is low volume compared to cars.
Low volume means higher margins (if you want to stay in business).
yeah and ask a guy who builds car headers how much 2 sets in stainless would cost. Oh, be sure to tell him you only need one set of flanges because one set of pipes needs to be inside the other. lol Oh my that sounds like such the deal. ;)
Not everyone pays the big money. But they do get their hands dirty.

bohica
07-10-2007, 11:35 AM
Try running your car at 5,000+ rpms for an extended periods of time and see what happens.:jawdrop:

Xlration Marine
07-10-2007, 11:42 AM
Kinda like getting a tire put on. I called a shop and got a price. When I showed up the price doubled:eek: ? But it's round I said, and he said yea but it's a Porsche wheel. It's aluminum just like that freeking honda wheel. Ye but it's a "Porsche wheel". Stupid muther. Thats why marine chit costs more. If in you have the money to buy it you have the money to make it go faster.

ratso
07-10-2007, 11:52 AM
I would try and find the boat that fits your wants and needs that already has had all the high performance work done to it already... let someone else take the initial hit. Just ask John (Ultra John) ;)

Devilman
07-10-2007, 12:00 PM
I would try and find the boat that fits your wants and needs that already has had all the high performance work done to it already... let someone else take the initial hit. Just ask John (Ultra John) ;)
LOL :D :rollside:

SB
07-10-2007, 12:02 PM
Well if you go buy the Chev 572 crate motor it's $8 or 10k, whether you put it in a boat or not. But yeah, boats cost $, keeps out the riff raff though. :D

Racey
07-10-2007, 12:22 PM
You're car engine doesnt run at 4000+ rpm for extended periods under full load, boats require alot more horsies than cars do to get performance, they are heavier, bigger, and make more friction. You could build a badass LSx motor for a vette or camaro for 15k that makes 600hp, it wont last one season in a boat. Go start pricing high end engine internals, cranks; rods; block; cam; heads; manifolds; hoses and fittings, etc etc etc, and all the tools, gauges etc it takes to assemble them correctly and you'll know where your money is going.
The water is a much harsher environment than the pavement.

redneckcharlie
07-10-2007, 12:52 PM
I would have to agree that there is more to a marine motor than a car, but the difference in the pricing is absolutely asanine. If it wasn't for the fifteen and twenty year loans that people can get on boats, theres no way the engine manufacturers would be able to sell the vast majority of the high priced engines.

Not So Fast
07-10-2007, 12:58 PM
Well if you go buy the Chev 572 crate motor it's $8 or 10k, whether you put it in a boat or not. But yeah, boats cost $, keeps out the riff raff though. :D
No it doesn't :D NSF

Kilrtoy
07-10-2007, 01:01 PM
It's a total scam.
PERIOD

riverbound
07-10-2007, 01:05 PM
I would have to agree that there is more to a marine motor than a car, but the difference in the pricing is absolutely asanine. If it wasn't for the fifteen and twenty year loans that people can get on boats, theres no way the engine manufacturers would be able to sell the vast majority of the high priced engines.
Ding ding ding...they charge what they do because they can;)

riverbound
07-10-2007, 01:07 PM
Without starting a frenzy here i was wondering if there is an explination why marine performance is so much more expensive then cars?? Is it that boats are usually toys and the performance makers know that so they charge more? Ive been looking into motors, performance add ons and some other stuff for a while now. I just cant believe that a 625 HP Merc, or Ilmor motor is in the 85K range. Add ons arent any better either, I just looked at Raylar kits and its 7K for 100 HP kits and its heads, manifold and cam. I know you can do that to any car for 1K at the most. By the time the Raylar kit is installed with headers its going to be 14K or so. Man im starting to hate performance prices. O.K. im done complaining.....:(
You might want to hit badblown572 up and talk to him about his new motor packages, frolm the Dyno sheets I hve seen they are pretty impressive. ;)

Havasu Daytona
07-10-2007, 02:01 PM
CAR MOTORS are for CARS.
Buy an outboard!!!
Outboards last forever and are much lighter. Twin outboards are great on larger hulls.

Froggystyle
07-10-2007, 04:07 PM
I think the biggest factor is the warranty. There are so many variables in boating from temperature, load, fuel, altitude etc... and you spend so much relative time at high RPMs that it is very difficult and time consuming to design an entire package set up to do the load... all the time.
I know... I thought they were too expensive myself. I figured that I would just go out and build a twin turbo motor, do it for under $30K and have twice the power for less money. Wrong. Wrong.... Wrong.
From injection systems that won't work with the ignition, lack of failsafe precautions, knock sensors, fuel systems, fuel pumps, regulators etc... it was very, very difficult to set up a bombproof engine program for the $100,000 or so I had to put towards the endeavor. I ended up running out of that money after grenading a couple of engines and switched to Ilmor power. The Ilmor engine is expensive, but worth it IMO. It is warrantied, powerful and lightweight. It has ALWAYS started right up, and never left us hanging because of a bad crank trigger sensor, faulty O2 sensor or any of the myriad problems I encountered with my previous ignition/injection system. It was ready to go out of the box, and just needs a drive.
The drive is spendy too, but like I always say when people bitch about gas prices... "Feel free to start your own oil company". The amount of investment in tooling, technology, R&D, testing, re-testing, racing etc... that goes into a drive is staggering. It is well worth the expense to buy one from someone who needs to sell it to a relatively limited audience to stay in business.
Marine parts are expensive because they are designed primarily for extreme duty by drunk operators. Nobody wants to go home on the trailer, so reliability takes a front seat. Expense takes the back seat.
I promise you I pay more dollars into the coffers of the high performance industry than your average boater... and I have resigned myself to paying more and doing less myself to gain the warranty and reliability. So far, it seems to be paying off...

DMOORE
07-10-2007, 04:11 PM
The way I see it, 80k for a 625HP engine with a warrantee for a boat is cheap. The only 625hp engine for a car(Factory w/ warrantee...actually 660hp) is an ENZO. that motor runs 250k, IF you can get one.
Darrell.

Cole Trickle
07-10-2007, 04:19 PM
The way I see it, 80k for a 625HP engine with a warrantee for a boat is cheap. The only 625hp engine for a car(Factory w/ warrantee...actually 660hp) is an ENZO. that motor runs 250k, IF you can get one.
Darrell.
http://www.lingenfelter.com/pack_cor_c6_427.htm
How about an underestimated 750hp with a 3/36 warranty;):D

MR HARLEY
07-10-2007, 04:22 PM
85k for an Ilmor motor................:D

Jordy
07-10-2007, 04:22 PM
Yea Im still trying to scoop up the Trident for my performance needs, shit i should just take the loss on my boat and buy the Trident and forget about it. After i put 20K into my boat to make it go 85 or so its still a waste since Wes's does 93 out of the box with a 550. I still love that boat more then anything.
Haven't we beat the hell out of this horse??? Engine hop ups, then drive mods to make it live... and you're still taking a loss on it some time in the future. Just pull the trigger and be done with it... :D

Biglue
07-10-2007, 04:26 PM
You bought a new boat. You have to expect a huge hit in depreciation. Buying used is a way to allieviate that. If I remember correctly, didn't you just buy your boat about a season ago?

DMOORE
07-10-2007, 04:29 PM
http://www.lingenfelter.com/pack_cor_c6_427.htm
How about an underestimated 750hp with a 3/36 warranty;):D
Hell ya! But look at the price. Cars "starting" at 140k. 70k for a Z06, plus 70K for the conversion. I love the old saying, " How fast you want to spend? "
Speed ain't cheap.
Darrell.

Boa1277
07-10-2007, 07:11 PM
My buddy purchased a new Howard 26ft Cat and he outfitted it with a Pfaff 700hp Fuel Injected motor, he mated it to the Imco SC drive, and the trick steering. He has over a 120 bullet proof hours on this setup and the way it is going should reach the 200 hour service with out a hitch. He did this for less than 55K, if you ask me this it the way to go. Pfaff warrantied the motor for a year and other than a very minor oil leak, which was fixed with a front seal it has been a very very solid setup...The boat does a solid 92mph GPS and has made me a believer in the whole setup. I do know this at the 200hr mark he will have to do a valve job and replace the valve train, but that is not bad since it will be about the 6yr mark when he its it.

Concept1
07-10-2007, 07:26 PM
Haven't we beat the hell out of this horse??? Engine hop ups, then drive mods to make it live... and you're still taking a loss on it some time in the future. Just pull the trigger and be done with it... :D
We have Jordy, I was just ranting thats all. This time i was serious about doing some upgrades but they are so much I just dont want to lose anymore money on this thing. Im stuck in a rat hole here and i dont like that at all...

Concept1
07-10-2007, 07:26 PM
You bought a new boat. You have to expect a huge hit in depreciation. Buying used is a way to allieviate that. If I remember correctly, didn't you just buy your boat about a season ago?
Not even a season, I bought it in Novenber..

CornWater
07-10-2007, 08:27 PM
Try running your car at 5,000+ rpms for an extended periods of time and see what happens.:jawdrop:
Exactly, not only that but up Chiriaco Summit towing 18,000 lbs. in 115 degree heat.

sleekcraft137
07-10-2007, 08:43 PM
We have Jordy, I was just ranting thats all. This time i was serious about doing some upgrades but they are so much I just dont want to lose anymore money on this thing. Im stuck in a rat hole here and i dont like that at all...
welcome to boating, or as its called "Diarrhea of the checkbook":D

Legal Chemistry
07-11-2007, 12:59 PM
You're car engine doesnt run at 4000+ rpm for extended periods under full load, boats require alot more horsies than cars do to get performance, they are heavier, bigger, and make more friction.
Not to completely disagree, but I have a commuter car that has 125k which highway cruising is 4000-45000rpm at 75-80. It has been a combo of stop and go/highway. Now granted this isn't under full load which is the huge catch, but after 125k - not a single problem. Hot lapping all day in 120 degree weather from 6-7k for hours and not a problem. These engine can sit up in the rpm range without going.
572 for 8k works perfect. Go though one of these every other season and you're 20 years before 85k. How much less of lifespan would you really expect out of a 572 vs. Merc/etc? I'm curious what the difference is.
I know of several people that have GM crate motors in their boats and without a problem to date. I'm not looking to put down Marine motors, but is there real reliability differences between the two? Is there hard evidence?

Dave C
07-11-2007, 01:08 PM
for OUR purposes.. there is none...... :devil:
How much less of lifespan would you really expect out of a 572 vs. Merc/etc? I'm curious what the difference is.
for those that want quality, definitely go Teague or pfaff.. the rest are just production motors.

CornWater
07-11-2007, 01:23 PM
for OUR purposes.. there is none...... :devil:
for those that want quality, definitely go Teague or pfaff.. the rest are just production motors.
Ummm... Brummet, Peto, Eickert, TPI....
:confused:

TOBTEK
07-11-2007, 01:56 PM
It's a total scam.
PERIOD
SEE, look at that.....we finally agree on something :) I DONT get/understand the prices on MOST of these packages! You CAN NOT tell me these companies aren't making a butt load of $$$. I was quoted over 60K for a 1200hp quad motor....JUST THE MOTOR! I'll sell my fresh 0 hours, 1200/1350 GT marine 588ci Efi quad rotor
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/medium/the_Quad_002.jpg
will have the block painted the color of your choice (sch to be painted gun metal gray) and comes with Stelling headers.

40FlatDeck
07-11-2007, 03:39 PM
Teague, GT, Baker. etc., all these guys are crazy.:jawdrop: Go see Larry in Tucson and that 60k motor will turn into a 35-40k motor.:D And I promise it will make ALL of the power.
Erik

Racey
07-11-2007, 04:58 PM
Not to completely disagree, but I have a commuter car that has 125k which highway cruising is 4000-45000rpm at 75-80. It has been a combo of stop and go/highway. Now granted this isn't under full load which is the huge catch, but after 125k - not a single problem. Hot lapping all day in 120 degree weather from 6-7k for hours and not a problem. These engine can sit up in the rpm range without going.
572 for 8k works perfect. Go though one of these every other season and you're 20 years before 85k. How much less of lifespan would you really expect out of a 572 vs. Merc/etc? I'm curious what the difference is.
I know of several people that have GM crate motors in their boats and without a problem to date. I'm not looking to put down Marine motors, but is there real reliability differences between the two? Is there hard evidence?
I agree with you, but your commuter car probably has a >2 liter sewing machine in it. and like you said, not under full load.
There is nothing wrong with a GM crate motor, i know several people with them as well, they last fine if you're not hard on em, Now if you want to go out there and run the boat 4500 all day you better start thinking about something with a little bit tougher bottom end. If you want the thing to last at all.
I personally haven't seen any of the performance engine builders i know driving Ferrari's home to their 5 million dollar mansions, but maybe that's just me. When you start adding up the prices just in parts on a hi-performance motor you will start to see the profit margin diminish substantially. It's not uncommon to get into the thousands of dollar range in just hose and fittings on one. Start talking Forged or Billet cranks, Carrillo Rods, JE or CP pistons, CNC heads, a $5,000+ EFI system and harness, and all of a sudden $35,000 comes to perspective. It's definitely not like it was 20 years ago when you could build a race motor for 10g's or less, but what was the price of a new Suburban 20 years ago compared to now?
I've grown up in this industry from the day i was born, it's the only industry my father has ever worked in, now i work for him. Most of these guys that are engine builders didn't get into this for the money, they did it because it was a passion. Now that these guys are at the top of their industry they deserve to make an excellent living. Anyone that is at the top of any industry does. And like i said before, I still haven't seen these guys driving Ferrari's around. There isn't as much profit in this business as you would believe with the cost of a new hi-perf boat being in the 6 figure range. There is an awful lot of overhead to consider. I know this first hand being in this game. Go tell Pfaff, Brummett, or Teague that they are making money hand over fist, they'll laugh. They aren't scraping by, but they sure as hell aren't becoming moguls off it.

GRUNION
07-11-2007, 05:47 PM
Its definatly hard to not want a Trident when you see one in person.:D