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baja 232
12-21-2005, 03:56 PM
----- Original Message Just the Facts
Share the following facts with your friends and neighbors.
Help them understand why buying a GM or Ford vehicle is important to them, and to you and to this countries economy.
Background
While foreign auto manufacturers attempt to “wrap themselves in the American Flag,” the fact remains the same – the contributions to the U.S. economy by our foreign competition cannot compare to those made by GM & Ford and other American OWNED companies.
Just the factsÂ….
•Every day, nearly one million Americans earn their living helping GM build and sell cars in the United States
•Every month 457,000 retirees and their spouses count on GM for Pension checks
•Over 1.2 million Americans receive health care benefits from General Motors
•GM is the only domestic manufacturer to rank above industry average in J D Powers Vehicle Dependability study; 40% improvement over last 3 years
–Cadillac cars outranked Lexus
–Buick and Cadillac both finished higher than Toyota
•The domestic parts content for GM vehicles sold in North America is 82%. This means more jobs for Americans by American OWNED businesses. The profit stays in the U. S.
–Toyota Motor Company’s domestic parts content is under 36%; Lexus band is 3.4%. Using these foreign made auto parts provides jobs for more Japanese, not Americans. The profit for these parts stay in Japan!
General Motors – Contributions to the Economy
•In the past 5 years, GM has invested over 20 billion in the U.S.
•GM’s contribution to the U.S. Gross National Product is about 4 times that of Toyota
The Domestic Auto Industry – Your Neighbors
•GM, Ford and DCX manufacturer 75% of all cars and trucks built in the United States
•The U.S. domestic auto manufacturers employ almost 90% of all American Auto Workers. The Big Three currently have about 470,000 direct employees in the United States , this is nearly 10 times as many as the Japanese transplants (49,000)
•For every 100 vehicles sold in the United States , approximately 23 jobs are provided - nearly twice as many as our Japanese counterparts
•GM, Ford and DCX provide health care benefits to over 1.8 million U.S. employees, retirees, and their families
–Foreign competition provides approximately 281,000 U.S. employees, retirees and family members with health care benefits
The Domestic Auto Industry – Your Community
•Over 85% of the Total Investments in the U.S. Auto Industry since 1980 have been made by GM, Ford and DCX
•Combined, GM, Ford and DCX spend over $16 Billion on Research and Development each year – more than any other industry
•Profits earned by American OWNED manufacturers stay in the United States!
Why is the following information important to you?
•Discounted employee sales accounted for nearly 15% of total retail sales in 2003 – over 510,000 units – the equivalent of the annual production of 2 assembly plants. Friends & relatives purchases are important to the success of GM & Ford and to the survival of the U. S. economy. Every person in the U.S. will have their pocket book affected in some way. Odds are your 401k's, retirement pension funds, increased taxes, and even your & your neighbors jobs will feel the strain if U.S. companies continue to decline and the Japanese continue to force out and buy out U.S OWNED companies. Here is a listed of American companies that are now OWNED by the Japanese: http://www.overthehillcarpeople.com/japanconquers042105.htm . If you thought you would not be affected because you don't work for GM or Ford, you better think again! So use these facts to help encourage your friends & neighbors to buy GM/Ford and other products from American OWNED companies. Remember, every time a Foreign product is purchased from a Foreign OWNED company the net profit goes to that foreign country, not the U.S.A. This true even if the product is made in America. Tax payers get ready for some big tax increases to make up for these loses to the U.S. economy.
Lets see now, China & other Foreign countries shut down the United States Steel Industry and our government did nothing to level the import competition......U. S. Airlines have been driven to bankruptcy by the radical Muslim countries and our government did nothing......Electronics (TV's, CD Players, Boom Boxes etc.) in the U. S. are now nonexistent and our government did nothing.....Mexicans are over running our country with 13 million illegal aliens and our government is doing nothing.....Oil prices and availability are being dictated to the U. S. by the Middle Eastern countries and our government is doing nothing....now the Japanese are driving U. S. automotive companies out of business and our government is doing nothing to level the import competition. How long will it be before the Japanese dictate what we drive and what we pay to drive it, like Oil is now? Ask yourself, where is this going to stop? What will America OWN in a few years? What will we sell to other countries?
Is it in my best interest to purchases products MADE in America, but OWNED by Foreign governments and companies? The answer is NO!
Act now to do your part....forward this to

Old Texan
12-21-2005, 04:19 PM
I call on automakers throughout the SE.
Nissan: TN, MS, Toyota: AL, TX, Honda: AL, BMW: SC, Mercedes: AL, Hyundai: AL.
All have done a tremendous amount for these state economies. Workers are locals. The support industry has brought a lot of new business and good paying jobs.
I don't doubt what you are trying to say or question your stats, but the auto industry is alive and well and gravitating to the southern US. Vehicles built here are assembled from components and raw materials here in the states. I saw some figures at Nissan about their trucks components being a higher percentage domestic than Ford and GM who get a lot from MX and other out of country suppliers.
I'm sure we could debate where each corps. money goes but I know for a fact the above mentioned foreign owned put a lot of food on the table in the USA.
I grew up in MI and when I go visit Flint and Detroit, it sure doesn't look as healthy as the economies of Birmingham, Greenville, and Nashville.
Also it might be interesting to talk to employees at each factory. GM is closing their Atlanta plant and Ford may not be far behind, but workers will no doubt find employment in the "new" auto industry.
Maybe I'm missing something but the foreign aoutomakers I see have done a hell of lot for OUR economy.

baja 232
12-22-2005, 07:06 AM
I am really suprised that there was but one response,HBers must have alot of foreign autos in the driveway. I am a GM and a Ford owner and always will be. And I NEVER go into a Walmart. I forgot to mention that 1 in 8 jobs in the US are tied to the US auto industry is yours?This is the USA and you do have a choice , but someday your choice will be with or without syrup when you eat your foreign car.

spectratoad
12-22-2005, 07:16 AM
Nope, GMC & two Jeep's.
I am sure they contribute to alot of the economy but I am just not very sympathetic to their troubles when it comes to the union crybabies. The vehicles to me are overpriced and that is not really GM's fault as they need to cover the overhead.
I am by all means proud to drive an American car and will always do so but I just don't get all starry eyed with all the numbers in your post because those number are just a by-product of doing business not something they do on top of their normal business.
Just my opinion.

Stoneman
12-22-2005, 07:30 AM
I spend my money on what is the best value. If that's was a GM product that would be what I own.
I own toyotas and have since the late 70's. That was a time when american cars were junk, and admittedly designed to fail after a few years of use. From what I read in consumer reports they have not changed much.
Buying a car is no different than anything else. Smart consumers shop for value, something the big 3 have difficulty in producing.

Kachina26
12-22-2005, 07:48 AM
And I NEVER go into a Walmart.What have you got against union dockworkers? I'm sure you must know that Walmart doesn't FLY all that crap in from over seas, right? It comes here on ships in shipping containers.
http://hotspotshawaii.com/SBH_on_H4/99graphics/container-ship1.jpg
Then an AMERICAN dockworker loads it onto either a truck driven by an AMERICAN
http://www.emmessar.com/images/MSRContainerbeingloadedonPorttruck1.jpg
Or perhaps a train car,
http://www.balco.com.au/images/Patrick%20Train%20&%20Containers.JPG
I'm pretty sure the railroad employs a few people :rolleyes:
As far as American made vehicles, I work at a GM dealer and let me tell you that there were more 2's and 3's coming through there than 1's (go look at the first digit of your VIN and you will be able to tell where it was made, 1=USA 2=canada 3=mex). Now of course, this is just anecdotal. But it's what I see daily. I drive a GMC truck and 2 hyundais, my buicks couldn't stand up to my daily commute and they were killing me on fuel (fuel, something that other countries profit from). Also, I think if you went somewhere a little less biased for your numbers, you would find that the "facts" you posted were just a little out of line.
Like it or not, it's gonna be a global economy. We can jump in and kick ass, or we can get dragged in kicking and screaming and lose our ass. It's our choice.

ChumpChange
12-22-2005, 07:57 AM
Baja got SERVED!

DCBob
12-22-2005, 08:15 AM
Lets see now, China & other Foreign countries shut down the United States Steel Industry and our government did nothing to level the import competition......U. S. Airlines have been driven to bankruptcy by the radical Muslim countries and our government did nothing......Electronics (TV's, CD Players, Boom Boxes etc.) in the U. S. are now nonexistent and our government did nothing.....Mexicans are over running our country with 13 million illegal aliens and our government is doing nothing.....Oil prices and availability are being dictated to the U. S. by the Middle Eastern countries and our government is doing nothing....now the Japanese are driving U. S. automotive companies out of business and our government is doing nothing to level the import competition. How long will it be before the Japanese dictate what we drive and what we pay to drive it, like Oil is now? Ask yourself, where is this going to stop? What will America OWN in a few years? What will we sell to other countries?
It's not like our goverment is doing nothing..........they're allowing our private property to be taken over by Emminent Domain so it can be re-sold/directed into new tax cash cows to build their little fifedoms and support the absurd levels of government we now have to look after our every needs :rolleyes:

Stoneman
12-22-2005, 08:23 AM
Lets see now, China & other Foreign countries shut down the United States Steel Industry and our government did nothing to level the import competition......U. S. Airlines have been driven to bankruptcy by the radical Muslim countries and our government did nothing......Electronics (TV's, CD Players, Boom Boxes etc.) in the U. S. are now nonexistent and our government did nothing.....Mexicans are over running our country with 13 million illegal aliens and our government is doing nothing.....Oil prices and availability are being dictated to the U. S. by the Middle Eastern countries and our government is doing nothing....now the Japanese are driving U. S. automotive companies out of business and our government is doing nothing to level the import competition. How long will it be before the Japanese dictate what we drive and what we pay to drive it, like Oil is now? Ask yourself, where is this going to stop? What will America OWN in a few years? What will we sell to other countries?
It's not like our goverment is doing nothing..........they're allowing our private property to be taken over by Emminent Domain so it can be re-sold/directed into new tax cash cows to build their little fifedoms and support the absurd levels of government we now have to look after our every needs :rolleyes:
Ok smart guy, what should the goverment do???? And how should they do it???

DCBob
12-22-2005, 08:32 AM
Ok smart guy, what should the goverment do???? And how should they do it???
I vote just like other taxpayers that give a shit about the likes of this topic. I am not qualified nor is it my job to advise the government. I'm kinda like the rest of the folks that got nothing to do except worry about what some other person posts on an internet website about Hot Boats :yuk:

Sane Asylum
12-22-2005, 08:33 AM
Lets see now, China & other Foreign countries shut down the United States Steel Industry and our government did nothing to level the import competition......U. S. Airlines have been driven to bankruptcy by the radical Muslim countries and our government did nothing......Electronics (TV's, CD Players, Boom Boxes etc.) in the U. S. are now nonexistent and our government did nothing.....Mexicans are over running our country with 13 million illegal aliens and our government is doing nothing.....Oil prices and availability are being dictated to the U. S. by the Middle Eastern countries and our government is doing nothing....now the Japanese are driving U. S. automotive companies out of business and our government is doing nothing to level the import competition. How long will it be before the Japanese dictate what we drive and what we pay to drive it, like Oil is now? Ask yourself, where is this going to stop? What will America OWN in a few years? What will we sell to other countries?
It's not like our goverment is doing nothing..........they're allowing our private property to be taken over by Emminent Domain so it can be re-sold/directed into new tax cash cows to build their little fifedoms and support the absurd levels of government we now have to look after our every needs :rolleyes:
It's called free enterprise. If you had a better idea, better efficiencies, lower costs, etc. then you can set up shop right beside someone who doesn't have new or better ideas, poor efficiencies, and high costs and kick his ass. This is what makes our country great...........It's a good thing. GM pays for more overhead, than any auto manufacturer on the planet....
They've failed to look at things like cost of capital, cashflow, and their debt to revenue ratio.............(Maybe they've looked at it but couldn't do anything about it....dunno)..........This is not the governments fault.........REPEAT after me...........It's not the governments fault......The government is not on the hook to fix it........
Merry Christmas BTW.....

goneboatin
12-22-2005, 08:38 AM
Why are American cars in a slump? Maybe build the quality a few years back, maybe it's the "oh well" attitude of the domestic auto dealership service departments. The buyers got burned and went where they were treated right.
Maybe it's beacause other than DCX (Chrysler, Dodge), the designs of the latests offerings from GM & Ford are pretty lame looking. They do look better than they did 10 years ago, but they should have looked that way 10 years ago.
Not wanting to bash on American vehicles, but is there a domestic luxury sedan or sport sedan that you would want to own? Maybe a Cadillac CTS -V, an STS-V, or a Chrysler 300 STR-8. The domestics are finally getting it.
The Euopean automakers kept their rear wheel drive platforms, whereas the domestics all went front wheel drive. Yes, yes I know the the Cadillac DeVille was rwd and also the Lincoln Town Car, but these were geared toward "old fogies", nothing that a successful individual in their 30's and 40's to would want to drive.
The Pontiac division of GM is the "excitement" brand. Nothing says excitement like a Torrent minivan. The GTO is a great attempt, it is exciting to drive, but it doesn't look too exciting. The Buick Division is the only division that has their priorities in line -cater to old farts. That's the only purpose of the Crown Vic and Grand Marquis other than make police criusers.
The domestic pricing is is all over the board. A loaded 4x4 Chevy 2500HD crew cab with the Duramax / Allison combo stickers for about $48,000, but with discounts you can get one out the door around $40K+. What does that tell you, the vehicles are way overpriced. Well, it sucks to pay the big bucks for a vehicle, but come on, bring the pricing to a more realistic level where the discounting isn't so great so the resale doesn't kill you when get rid of it or step up.
The vehicle engineers, testers, and factory enthusists (sp) should take a bigger part in the conception, building, and marketing of the vehicles. The prototypes always look bitchen, then the executives get involved and Silverado SS goes from a 500 hp hot rod to a 4 wheel drive extra cab truck with a warmed over mid duty engine in it. Keep the beancounters out of the process.
I don't have the slightest idea how to run a corporation, but to be successful you need to produce something that people want to buy.
Thank you and good night.

Kachina26
12-22-2005, 08:54 AM
GM pays for more overhead, than any auto manufacturer on the planet....
I suppose I would get flamed pretty bad if I alluded to the cause of this......... :argue:

Old Texan
12-22-2005, 09:03 AM
Why are American cars in a slump? Maybe build the quality a few years back, maybe it's the "oh well" attitude of the domestic auto dealership service departments. The buyers got burned and went where they were treated right.
Maybe it's beacause other than DCX (Chrysler, Dodge), the designs of the latests offerings from GM & Ford are pretty lame looking. They do look better than they did 10 years ago, but they should have looked that way 10 years ago.
Not wanting to bash on American vehicles, but is there a domestic luxury sedan or sport sedan that you would want to own? Maybe a Cadillac CTS -V, an STS-V, or a Chrysler 300 STR-8. The domestics are finally getting it.
The Euopean automakers kept their rear wheel drive platforms, whereas the domestics all went front wheel drive. Yes, yes I know the the Cadillac DeVille was rwd and also the Lincoln Town Car, but these were geared toward "old fogies", nothing that a successful individual in their 30's and 40's to would want to drive.
The Pontiac division of GM is the "excitement" brand. Nothing says excitement like a Torrent minivan. The GTO is a great attempt, it is exciting to drive, but it doesn't look too exciting. The Buick Division is the only division that has their priorities in line -cater to old farts. That's the only purpose of the Crown Vic and Grand Marquis other than make police criusers.
The domestic pricing is is all over the board. A loaded 4x4 Chevy 2500HD crew cab with the Duramax / Allison combo stickers for about $48,000, but with discounts you can get one out the door around $40K+. What does that tell you, the vehicles are way overpriced. Well, it sucks to pay the big bucks for a vehicle, but come on, bring the pricing to a more realistic level where the discounting isn't so great so the resale doesn't kill you when get rid of it or step up.
The vehicle engineers, testers, and factory enthusists (sp) should take a bigger part in the conception, building, and marketing of the vehicles. The prototypes always look bitchen, then the executives get involved and Silverado SS goes from a 500 hp hot rod to a 4 wheel drive extra cab truck with a warmed over mid duty engine in it. Keep the beancounters out of the process.
I don't have the slightest idea how to run a corporation, but to be successful you need to produce something that people want to buy.
Thank you and good night.
Well said.
To add a few thoughts. The GM format has way to much redundancy. For years their customer base was Brand trained to buy Olds, Buick, Pontiac, and Chevrolet. Remember the Chevy Nova? Each division had it's own named version based on letters N O V A. Chev Nova, Olds Omega, Pontiac Ventura, Buick Appollo. Chev and GMC, more duplication of efforts. Got to raise costs.
GM has lived off the fat and failed to adapt. Back in the early 70's and the gas crisis they wouldn't listen and continued to produce big barges that got 8-12 mpg. They opened the door for foreign builders and it's been down hill for the General ever since.
Look at the disasterous results GM has produced by rushing poor solutions to the market to solve mpg and emission demands. The Vega, the 350 diesel conversion, the GEO series. Cadillac has always been their cream and they have tinkered with it several times with terrible results. The Opal made Catera and one I forget the name of that was compact, built elsewhere, and was pure junk.
Like the man said it's a global economy and GM needs to get their domestic act together. Their foreign market seems to be quite successful, maybe they nedd to move a few execs around.

Sane Asylum
12-22-2005, 09:12 AM
I suppose I would get flamed pretty bad if I alluded to the cause of this......... :argue:
Since when has that stopped ya....?? :D :D :argue:

Just Tool'n
12-22-2005, 09:15 AM
Does everyone know why all of the imports located factories down south?
To get rid of the unions!
Not one single plant is union, & have remained non-union for all of these years. No UAW.
Unions are killing this mfg base in this country, they did serve a time & purpose in this country, but they have outlived their usefullness.
Look at our home state of California.
Look at New York City right now, the unions are creating havoc there.
The mayor ought to fire them all, hire back all non-union, like Reagan did to the Air Traffic Controllers.
What really gets me, is the union is being fined 1 million a day. Those funds are going to be paid from the rank & file members.

Kachina26
12-22-2005, 09:18 AM
Well said.
Each division had it's own named version based on letters N O V A. Chev Nova, Olds Omega, Pontiac Ventura, Buick Appollo.
Cadillac............................ and one I forget the name of that was compact, built elsewhere, and was pure junk.
I didn't know about the NOVA thing, I thought it was a slang version of No vas!
The cadillac Cimmaron is the piece of crap J body you were thinking of, and it was a pile.

baja 232
12-22-2005, 09:19 AM
Baja got SERVED!???????

Kachina26
12-22-2005, 09:23 AM
Since when has that stopped ya....?? :D :D :argue:
Toolin' handled it for me :D
Sad thing is, in a few days, everyone in my house will be a union member.
My 17 yo son has a job at a grocer, luckily the union is there to make sure he gets minimum wage :rolleyes:
I start my union job in 2 weeks. I have mixed feelings on that.

Stoneman
12-22-2005, 09:27 AM
Toolin' handled it for me :D
Sad thing is, in a few days, everyone in my house will be a union member.
My 17 yo son has a job at a grocer, luckily the union is there to make sure he gets minimum wage :rolleyes:
I start my union job in 2 weeks. I have mixed feelings on that.
If GM made a great product I'd buy it, union or not. :cool:

Kachina26
12-22-2005, 09:29 AM
???????
Well said.

Sane Asylum
12-22-2005, 09:29 AM
Toolin' handled it for me :D
Sad thing is, in a few days, everyone in my house will be a union member.
My 17 yo son has a job at a grocer, luckily the union is there to make sure he gets minimum wage :rolleyes:
I start my union job in 2 weeks. I have mixed feelings on that.
What's the new vocation???

Sane Asylum
12-22-2005, 09:33 AM
???????
Baja232..........I'm going to go easy on ya because I used to own the same boat .......In a weird sort of way I feel somewhat connected......... :rolleyes:
A post like yours will stir some opinions.........You got served by those with a differing opinion......
Good board fodder but where is Frenchie when you need him......

Kachina26
12-22-2005, 09:41 AM
What's the new vocation???
Conductor, I hear it involves sittin' waitin' for signals to turn green :D I start school in January. Everytime I think about an automotive problem, I realize that I won't be doing that anymore. I'm kinda sad, as much as I hate the way the business is going, I still like working on cars.

superdave013
12-22-2005, 09:49 AM
•Every month 457,000 retirees and their spouses count on GM for Pension checks
•Over 1.2 million Americans receive health care benefits from General Motors
Good luck on the above. Those will get cut real soon. Seems to be the trend these days.
I'm from Anderson, Indiana and at one time that city what HUGE with GM work. Guide Lamp and Delco were both there among others. If you didn't work at one of the 2 you worked for a company that supported them. I always had a GM car as that all my dad would let in his driveway. lol
But those plants are 99% closed up now and the place is hurting.
OK, lets go south a few hours to Princton, Indiana. Toyota now has a big F'in plant down there making trucks. Sure I would think the major profits go back to the main land but the people in that town now have better jobs.
So were would you rather be? In dried up ol' Anderson or down in Princton working a good job??
BTW, old habbits die hard. I drive a Dodge truck and the wife has a Chevy Surburan.

Sleek-Jet
12-22-2005, 10:38 AM
How much does GM spend on white collar pensions every year???
And if the unions cost so much to have around, why do vehicles that are manufactured at non-union shops cost about the same as a compartive union built unit???
As far as reliablility, I drove my 89 F250 over 200,000 miles and had no major problems, other than replacing items that simply wear out over that time frame. Still had the orginal engine when I sold it, used no oil, and ran like the day I bought it.
My 93 Blazer is pushing 170,000... same story, other than stuff just wears out over the years, no mechanical problems to speak of.

Kachina26
12-22-2005, 11:13 AM
How much does GM spend on white collar pensions every year???
And if the unions cost so much to have around, why do vehicles that are manufactured at non-union shops cost about the same as a compartive union built unit???
If someone could make a hamburger as good or better than in-n-out (not likely :D) for much less money, and people were willing to spend the same money as in-n-out, why would they charge less? The unions have driven up costs, and the non-union manufacturers are capitalizing on it.
As far as reliablility, I drove my 89 F250 over 200,000 miles and had no major problems, other than replacing items that simply wear out over that time frame. Still had the orginal engine when I sold it, used no oil, and ran like the day I bought it.
My 93 Blazer is pushing 170,000... same story, other than stuff just wears out over the years, no mechanical problems to speak of.That's my problem, I need much more than 170k miles, I do that in 3.5 years, easy. My mazda had 245k when I sold it 5 years ago and I still see it around town. My wife is so mad at me for selling that car. Don't get me wrong, I love my GM truck, but for commuting I need a different product.

maxwedge
12-22-2005, 11:58 AM
Me and 1000's of other people have had a job for the last 4 years mainly because of a Misubishi plant right here in Normal IL. It's been here for almost twenty years building a very large portion of what they sell in the US and suppling 1000's of people with jobs. The plant I work for supplys brake and fuel line assemblys for them. When I started 4 years ago we made parts for the GM G-van, Isuzu, Dodge Ram trucks (probably 50% of our business), Mitsubishi (almost everything they make), the S-10, Neon, Sebring, Stratus, Dodge Viper. and more recently, the Ford Freesytle and 500. There have been lots of lay offs here in the last few years, Mitsubishi cut production almost 50% last year, Neon is no more, g-van is gone, s10 is gone. Dodge got spilt up between Mexico and some other plant in the US that out bid us. The only thing my plant builds right now is Mitsubishi, Ford and Viper(very low volume and actually a money loser for us). we lost half of our workers, so did they. The plant I work for is non union. The Mitsubishi plant is. We don't have big fights at the local bars every night. This isn't 1970's Detroit or flint. But My father is from there and my brother lives in Lansing (former home of Olds), so I'm quite familiar with that siuation. Nobody is begging for food on the streets here. The thousands of layed off workers got very large severance packages. Many haven't even bothered looking for jobs yet. This town is still quite prosperous. Manufacturing jobs are the exception here. I do it because I like it. But It is not the only job in town. If you are driving one of these vehichels, chances are good I had a hand in making it, and I'm damn proud of that. But, Here is my point.
This is very much a Global economy weather you like it or not. Buying only new GM or Ford or union or not isn't the answer. I drive a 97 Ford truck. It was expensive. It has been very well maintained. It is falling apart. I also have a 1985 nissan truck in the garage. I bought it to beat the crap out of off road. It never breaks. I would never encourage anybody to "Buy American" Just to save the poor GM and Ford employees jobs. If they have a better product at a better price they will survive. If not, hey that's capitalism for ya. 1 Million GM jobs isn't going to collapse America, but it is going to make or force those people survive some other way. Maybe they can find work in a new Toyota plant. That's life. They still won't starve here in the US unless they want to. Frankly I don't feel that just because I was born into a prosperous country that I deserve to live a better life than somebody who was born in Mexico or China or Japan. Those people are willing to work cheaper because it gives them something more than what they have which is basically nothing. I'm broke as hell compared to a lot of people on these boards. So what. That doesn't make me more or less deserving than them. I paid $78,000 last year for a 1600sf house with a huge two car garage and a big yard here in IL. What's that cost out in CA? what about Mexico? If they want my $12.30 an hour job for $1 a day. Take it. They obviously need it more than me. I'll find somthing more rewarding to do with my time. Also, I don't particularly care if a shitload of GM retirees loose their pensions. They made the equivelnt of ten times what I ever will doing the same job in my lifetime, but ironicly they are also the reason why I can't afford to buy a new GM truck. I guess they should have saved more. Economics and life, Is a big cycle like that. Basic economics. Basic human condition. Some people can afford a to buy a fleet of new Eliminators. Some people would gladly trade that fleet for just one meal. The only real solution is to let it equal out across the world which won't happen in our lifetime, but maybe someday if we actually treat people from other countries as fellow human beings instead hating them for trying to take a small peice our inflated paychecks to make a better life for themselves. If somebody in Mexico, or Korea can build a better car than gm for $12000 less, and it means the korean family won't starve to death, and I can still afford to buy it, because I live in the US, and maybe Taco bell is still paying me 6 times as much as them, just to make tacos, I will gladly buy that car. Even if it means some executive in America won't be able to get that new DCB. Or maybe that 30 year old used Sidewinder for some factory worker in IL. I love this country, I'm very glad I was born here, but I don't think that I'm entitled to more than everybody else because of it. Neither are you. The companys that will survive in the US are the ones that transact business worldwide, as efficently as possible. Not the ones that give out handouts or outragous pensions, just because that's the way it has been done in the past. That's capitalism. Free market baby. It works. I'm damn glad to be a part of it. If we spread it around the world, and some people don't starve and I can buy a good cheap truck, so much the better. It isn't the governments job to fix GM or anyone elses business. It's our job as americans to make american business compete and succeed in this world economy. Whatever that takes. God bless the USA, and everybody else trying to live life on this planet.

Old Texan
12-22-2005, 12:13 PM
Does everyone know why all of the imports located factories down south?
To get rid of the unions!
Not one single plant is union, & have remained non-union for all of these years. No UAW.
Unions are killing this mfg base in this country, they did serve a time & purpose in this country, but they have outlived their usefullness.
Look at our home state of California.
Look at New York City right now, the unions are creating havoc there.
The mayor ought to fire them all, hire back all non-union, like Reagan did to the Air Traffic Controllers.
What really gets me, is the union is being fined 1 million a day. Those funds are going to be paid from the rank & file members.
Growing up in MI I had a great view of the auto industry in the 60' and 70s. When I graduated from HS I was told by lot of old timers that college was a waste of my time, "get a job in the 'shop' " as they called the auto factories. "You'll be set for life. Good pay, good benefits, lots of vacation, and in 30 years you can kick back and fish."
Well guess what. In 1972 or 3 I was driving to work in Pontiac, MI and the unemployment office had a 1/2 mile line of laid off workers from GM. Those with up to 12 yrs senority were told it would be permanent.
It was a standard joke in those days that you didn't want a Monday or Friday car, a pre holiday car, or one of the first built after changeover. Fill in workers on the line and hungover regulars didn't do quality work at those times.
We can blame unions and/or management but the real problem is the attitude of the everyday worker not taking pride and not demanding union AND corp mangement to make decisions that were good business decisions.
Too many labor settlements were signed with added benefits down the round rather than immediate wages increases. We are seeing the fallacy of these decisions now. The number of workers retiring in their 50's and receiving full benefits for 20+ years places an enormous burden on profits.
Nothing is wrong with unions if the union takes the business side of the corporation into account. You can only squeeze so many eggs out of the Golden Goose. Unions need to realize they are basically the supplier of labor which is subject to what the market can and will bear in relation to a healthy bottom line. Unfortunately union management turns into politicians worrying only about immediate needs and getting reelected by their constituents.
The southern style plants I've been involved with have far better worker/management relations. Workers feel part of the team and are treated as such. Early ventures into are US business climate by the Japanese had management with a guarded attitude of trust toward US workers. Through the years they have seen the American worker as intelligent, skilled, and prideful of the end product. These plants run smoothly with the team effort.
Adaptation to the market and foresight for profitable continuity are key to
success.
One more thing, Saturn and Corvette are in TN and KY. Both among the most profitable of GM's domestic products.
Another crazy thing is the number of workers from the south who moved to Detroit in the 40's and 50's whose descendants are heading back south.

Sane Asylum
12-22-2005, 12:23 PM
Me and 1000's of other people have had a job for the last 4 years mainly because of a Misubishi plant right here in Normal IL. It's been here for almost twenty years building a very large portion of what they sell in the US and suppling 1000's of people with jobs. The plant I work for supplys brake and fuel line assemblys for them. When I started 4 years ago we made parts for the GM G-van, Isuzu, Dodge Ram trucks (probably 50% of our business), Mitsubishi (almost everything they make), the S-10, Neon, Sebring, Stratus, Dodge Viper. and more recently, the Ford Freesytle and 500. There have been lots of lay offs here in the last few years, Mitsubishi cut production almost 50% last year, Neon is no more, g-van is gone, s10 is gone. Dodge got spilt up between Mexico and some other plant in the US that out bid us. The only thing my plant builds right now is Mitsubishi, Ford and Viper(very low volume and actually a money loser for us). we lost half of our workers, so did they. The plant I work for is non union. The Mitsubishi plant is. We don't have big fights at the local bars every night. This isn't 1970's Detroit or flint. But My father is from there and my brother lives in Lansing (former home of Olds), so I'm quite familiar with that siuation. Nobody is begging for food on the streets here. The thousands of layed off workers got very large severance packages. Many haven't even bothered looking for jobs yet. This town is still quite prosperous. Manufacturing jobs are the exception here. I do it because I like it. But It is not the only job in town. If you are driving one of these vehichels, chances are good I had a hand in making it, and I'm damn proud of that. But, Here is my point.
This is very much a Global economy weather you like it or not. Buying only new GM or Ford or union or not isn't the answer. I drive a 97 Ford truck. It was expensive. It has been very well maintained. It is falling apart. I also have a 1985 nissan truck in the garage. I bought it to beat the crap out of off road. It never breaks. I would never encourage anybody to "Buy American" Just to save the poor GM and Ford employees jobs. If they have a better product at a better price they will survive. If not, hey that's capitalism for ya. 1 Million GM jobs isn't going to collapse America, but it is going to make or force those people survive some other way. Maybe they can find work in a new Toyota plant. That's life. They still won't starve here in the US unless they want to. Frankly I don't feel that just because I was born into a prosperous country that I deserve to live a better life than somebody who was born in Mexico or China or Japan. Those people are willing to work cheaper because it gives them something more than what they have which is basically nothing. I'm broke as hell compared to a lot of people on these boards. So what. That doesn't make me more or less deserving than them. I paid $78,000 last year for a 1600sf house with a huge two car garage and a big yard here in IL. What's that cost out in CA? what about Mexico? If they want my $12.30 an hour job for $1 a day. Take it. They obviously need it more than me. I'll find somthing more rewarding to do with my time. Also, I don't particularly care if a shitload of GM retirees loose their pensions. They made the equivelnt of ten times what I ever will doing the same job in my lifetime, but ironicly they are also the reason why I can't afford to buy a new GM truck. I guess they should have saved more. Economics and life, Is a big cycle like that. Basic economics. Basic human condition. Some people can afford a to buy a fleet of new Eliminators. Some people would gladly trade that fleet for just one meal. The only real solution is to let it equal out across the world which won't happen in our lifetime, but maybe someday if we actually treat people from other countries as fellow human beings instead hating them for trying to take a small peice our inflated paychecks to make a better life for themselves. If somebody in Mexico, or Korea can build a better car than gm for $12000 less, and it means the korean family won't starve to death, and I can still afford to buy it, because I live in the US, and maybe Taco bell is still paying me 6 times as much as them, just to make tacos, I will gladly buy that car. Even if it means some executive in America won't be able to get that new DCB. Or maybe that 30 year old used Sidewinder for some factory worker in IL. I love this country, I'm very glad I was born here, but I don't think that I'm entitled to more than everybody else because of it. Neither are you. The companys that will survive in the US are the ones that transact business worldwide, as efficently as possible. Not the ones that give out handouts or outragous pensions, just because that's the way it has been done in the past. That's capitalism. Free market baby. It works. I'm damn glad to be a part of it. If we spread it around the world, and some people don't starve and I can buy a good cheap truck, so much the better. It isn't the governments job to fix GM or anyone elses business. It's our job as americans to make american business compete and succeed in this world economy. Whatever that takes. God bless the USA, and everybody else trying to live life on this planet.
AMEN

Kachina26
12-22-2005, 12:30 PM
Well Baja, if I didn't make my point , Max certainly schooled ya. Well put Max :D
Here Baja, no need to reply, I'll do it for ya.
?????? :confused:

RiverDave
12-22-2005, 12:38 PM
I am really suprised that there was but one response,HBers must have alot of foreign autos in the driveway. I am a GM and a Ford owner and always will be. And I NEVER go into a Walmart. I forgot to mention that 1 in 8 jobs in the US are tied to the US auto industry is yours?This is the USA and you do have a choice , but someday your choice will be with or without syrup when you eat your foreign car.
I got a Rincoln, Ford, and a Cadillac... So I guess I should be happy that I supported the U.S.
Problem is, that dissertation written above, I don't believe is accurate.. Point in fact I'm pretty sure it's 180 degrees backwards. I used to have a chart of different cars and where the parts where mfg'd, and assembled.. Toyota and Honda were both more American then Ford and Chevy (in some cases)..
RD

baja 232
12-22-2005, 01:06 PM
Well Baja, if I didn't make my point , Max certainly schooled ya. Well put Max :D
Here Baja, no need to reply, I'll do it for ya.
?????? :confused:
Schooled..NO . But this post did do what I wanted and that was to get a response,good,bad or indifferent. "1 Million GM jobs isn't going to collapse America" this comment maybe true but I don't beleive that it won't cripple many things,even life in Normal indiana.

maxwedge
12-22-2005, 01:21 PM
Schooled..NO . But this post did do what I wanted and that was to get a response,good,bad or indifferent. "1 Million GM jobs isn't going to collapse America" this comment maybe true but I don't beleive that it won't cripple many things,even life in Normal indiana.
Hey that's Illinois, dammitt! It's the pointy looking state wedged in there right between Indiana, and Mssouri. It is kinda similar looking, very flat, lots of corn, not enough lakes, colder than shit, kinda like Indiana, but has diffenent name and abreviation (IL) none the less. Here's a snippit from the local paper today. Looks like we are in deep shit.
Census: Normal passes 50,000
By Mary Ann Ford
mford@pantagraph
Advertisement
NORMAL - The town officially now has more than 50,000 residents for the first time in its history.
The town has grown by nearly 5,100 people since the 2000 Census, a boost that will bring about $565,000 more to town coffers each year.
Results from a special census conducted this fall and released Wednesday take the town's population to 50,485. The 2000 Census reported 45,386 people living in Normal.
"Obviously we're very pleased with the results," said City Manager Mark Peterson. "The population total exceeds what we projected."
Originally, town officials estimated a 3,000 to 4,000 increase beyond the 2000 Census.
Sweetening the deal, the amount the town receives from population-based state revenue sources has increased since the town decided to request a special census, said administrative analyst Geoff Fruin.
Normal received about $90 per person from three population-based state revenue sources in 2004. The state's economy has rebounded, however, so Fruin said that amount is now up to $111 per person. The extra 5,099 people recorded in the special census will bring Normal an additional $565,989 each year.
Fruin expects the extra money will start in January.
"The additional money will help the City Council continue to keep the property tax rate as low as possible," said finance director Ron Hill.
Like all municipalities, the town has seen increased costs, especially in capital projects such as road improvements, Hill said.
"A growing community also requires additional staff to continue to meet the needs of the residents," Hill said.
Peterson said the purpose of the special census was to take advantage of revenue available to town.
"It's clearly proven to be a benefit," he said.
Normal paid $123,445 for the special census that targeted subdivisions that hadn't been built when the 2000 Census was conducted. Census takers knocked on doors at College Station, Heartland Ridge, Parkwest, Wintergreen, Pheasant Ridge, Collie Ridge, Pinehurst, Pines, Beechwood Commons, Linden Place, Savannah Green, North Fields, Heather Ridge, North Bridge, Oaks on Hovey, The Fields II, Eagles Landing and the Enclaves at Eagle's Landing from mid-August to mid-September.
The town was required to pay census-takers salaries and provide an office for workers.
Bloomington also is planning a special census. It is expected to begin in February. Officials believe the city's population may have increased by about 7,800 people since the 2000 Census. Such an increase would generate another $700,000 a year for Bloomington.
Normal's population growth through the years
Year Population Percent of Growth
1920 5,143 27.81
1930 6,768 31.60
1940 6,983 3.18
1950 9,772 39.94
1960 13,357 36.69
1970 26,396 97.62
1980 35,672 35.14
1990 40,023 12.20
1997* 42,219 5.49
2000 45,386 7.50
2005* 50,485 11.23

Old Texan
12-22-2005, 01:37 PM
Schooled..NO . But this post did do what I wanted and that was to get a response,good,bad or indifferent. "1 Million GM jobs isn't going to collapse America" this comment maybe true but I don't beleive that it won't cripple many things,even life in Normal indiana.
Mr. Baja, I think the point you are missing in all this is the adaptability of the American citizen and worker and the general view and belief in Capitalism in this country.
In my lifetime I have witnessed downturns in the automobile industry, the oil industry, the chemical industry and the textile industry. In each case there was a loss of jobs, plants closing, and people relocating. Most picked themselves up, reeducated themselves and found successful employment in newer and/or upgraded industries. And were better for it.
New startups and small business ventures are at an all time high. The US economy is growing.
The general attitude on HB is upbeat for a reason, the majority here are successful self sufficent people that use their brains and abilities to live a nice comfortable life.
Cheer up and realize the only problem we are facing (outside of the war and other serious issues) is it's too damn cold to be doing what we all hold dear, going out on the boat this weekend. :rollside:

HammerDown
12-22-2005, 01:43 PM
Few months ago I purchased my 1'st foreign (name plate) vehicle...Toyota. From all the research/feedback I received, I bought it for the fuel mileage/reliability.
I just have very little pride in owning it. Unlike my other American (name plate) vehicles such as Harley, Ford and GM. And YES I know some are built and use parts made outside of our Country.

Sane Asylum
12-22-2005, 02:33 PM
Few months ago I purchased my 1'st foreign (name plate) vehicle...Toyota. From all the research/feedback I received, I bought it for the fuel mileage/reliability.
I just have very little pride in owning it. Unlike my other American (name plate) vehicles such as Harley, Ford and GM. And YES I know some are built and use parts made outside of our Country.
I feel bad for you too hammer............Sell the toyoyo to me for half of what you paid and it will make you feel much better........
Glad i could be here to help......

spectratoad
12-22-2005, 03:04 PM
My 17 yo son has a job at a grocer, luckily the union is there to make sure he gets minimum wage :rolleyes:
I thought that federal law did that????

desertbird
12-22-2005, 03:19 PM
As a GM Kid, I have real mixed emotions. My daddy put 17 years into Van Nuys before GM decided to send the Camaro and Trans-Am somewhere else. He was forced to move, but not until after milking the union for a few years with 80% paychecks while he "looked" for work. Lucky enough the three kids were all in late teens, and them divorced, else we would have been in REAL bad shape.
Many years later the tides have changed. While I enjoy a discounted rate on my GMAC mortgage, my GMAC insurance, and I am buying a new truck with GMS pricing (truck made in Canada, by the way) I still can't help but think the unions have done this to themselves.
Obviously the union ensured my family was better off than our neighbors in the same community, and it is disgraceful for me to think that pop made more than he should. I get help but get these opinions from the management position I'm in now, and realizing what we pay our factory workers.
A few posts above, the $12.30 wage was mentioned in IL. That kinda wage doesn't even pay the rent in California, let alone fund a boat. Meanwhile, there were folks making $20.00/hour in 1985 on the assembly line in Van Nuys.
......and we think 48K for a pickup truck is outrageous?
Now retired, he has a rather miserable pension, but it's a pension nonetheless. His roof don't leak, his fridge is full, and the dog gets a treat every now and then. With nothing else but his pension going for him, I just can't imagine where he'd be today. It's so unfortunate that many Retirees forget that the reason their paychecks were so big for so many years was "mandatory overtime" with 10 hour days and Saturdays.

desertbird
12-22-2005, 03:22 PM
The general attitude on HB is upbeat for a reason, the majority here are successful self sufficent people that use their brains and abilities to live a nice comfortable life.
Cheer up and realize the only problem we are facing (outside of the war and other serious issues) is it's too damn cold to be doing what we all hold dear, going out on the boat this weekend. :rollside:
AMEN BROTHER!

Kachina26
12-22-2005, 03:48 PM
I thought that federal law did that????
Me too :rolleyes: But he's paying union dues and all he gets is the ability to refuse to be sent home early.

HammerDown
12-22-2005, 04:21 PM
I feel bad for you too hammer............Sell the toyoyo to me for half of what you paid and it will make you feel much better........
Glad i could be here to help......
Actually, the car (06 Corolla-S) has been for sale... 2+ months now.
Only one bite :notam:

H2OT TIMES
12-22-2005, 05:03 PM
I drive a GMC truck and 2 hyundais, my buicks couldn't stand up to my daily commute and they were killing me on fuel (fuel, something that other countries profit from). .[/QUOTE]
Then again, my 92 Buick Roadmaster estate wagon pulls my Daycruiser, get 20.5mpg everyday driving and 24.5 mpg highway, and has 287,689 miles on it. Still runs great uses no oil between changes. I'm not buying the idea that Japanese cars are better than the American cars. I'm not saying the imports are bad cars. Most cars, these days are pretty good, take care of them and they take care of you.

Two K's
12-22-2005, 05:07 PM
WANTED 28' ISUZU TUNNEL WITH TWIN HYUNDAI ENGINES. MUST HAVE HONDA DRIVES :rolleyes: :yuk: :rollside:

canuck1
12-22-2005, 06:22 PM
[QUOTE=desertbird][SIZE=2]Many years later the tides have changed. While I enjoy a discounted rate on my GMAC mortgage, my GMAC insurance, and I am buying a new truck with GMS pricing (truck made in Canada, by the way) I still can't help but think the unions have done this to themselves.
Obviously the union ensured my family was better off than our neighbors in the same community, and it is disgraceful for me to think that pop made more than he should. I get help but get these opinions from the management position I'm in now, and realizing what we pay our factory workers.
A few posts above, the $12.30 wage was mentioned in IL. That kinda wage doesn't even pay the rent in California, let alone fund a boat. Meanwhile, there were folks making $20.00/hour in 1985 on the assembly line in Van Nuys.
......and we think 48K for a pickup truck is outrageous?
Canada and Mexico were the other two countries in North America last time I looked at a map. :rollside:
I don't understand the poor quality stuff that is brought up about NA vehicles.
Out of 120+ North American trucks that we have owned over the last 20 years the best cost per mile trucks were
1) 79 chev 3/4 4x4 454
2) 76 chev 1 ton cc dually 454 2 wd
3) 91 Dodge 1 ton 4x4 diesel
4) 01 Dodge 1 ton 4x4 diesel dually
5) 85 chev 3/4 4x4
the worst
1) 03 Dmax 1 ton 4x4
2) 01 ford 450 4x4 v 10
3) 89 toyota 4 runner
4) 04 Dmax 1 ton 4x4
5) 02 jeep tj
And yes $60 000(here) is waaay too much for a truck. But buy a toyota? I did once.......that was enough

maxwedge
12-22-2005, 06:35 PM
What twenty year period is it that spans from 1976 until 2004?

canuck1
12-22-2005, 06:51 PM
What twenty year period is it that spans from 1976 until 2004?
My company

Kachina26
12-22-2005, 06:55 PM
Canada and Mexico were the other two countries in North America last time I looked at a map. :rollside:
I don't understand the poor quality stuff that is brought up about NA vehicles.
Don't flatter yourself, when we talk about American made, we really mean United states made. Not Canatard or Mehican made.

maxwedge
12-22-2005, 06:59 PM
Ok sorry I misunderstood that somehow as being from time purchased new. Looks like the old chevys were still kickin for a while. Don't they use salt on the roads up there? Those things dissolved to nothing in about six years here in IL. LOL

canuck1
12-22-2005, 07:20 PM
Don't flatter yourself, when we talk about American made, we really mean United states made. Not Canatard or Mehican made.
So was I....United States of America. Notice the "of" part.
You Ameritard :rollside:

Kachina26
12-22-2005, 07:28 PM
So was I....United States of America. Notice the "of" part.
You Ameritard :rollside:
Hey now, you had better keep a low profile or we'll come after your beer like arab oil! Then you'll be left with shitty socialized medicine and nothing else!

canuck1
12-22-2005, 07:37 PM
Ok sorry I misunderstood that somehow as being from time purchased new. Looks like the old chevys were still kickin for a while. Don't they use salt on the roads up there? Those things dissolved to nothing in about six years here in IL. LOL
Yes they do but not as much as out east. You can tell an eastern vehicle from one out here easy, the eastern one has holes in it.

canuck1
12-22-2005, 07:39 PM
Hey now, you had better keep a low profile or we'll come after your beer like arab oil! Then you'll be left with shitty socialized medicine and nothing else!
Shitty Socialized medicine???? Threaten our beer and the wrath of Kim will get ya