My ideas on increasing boating safety...

[HighRoller]

Like it or not, a free boating education course and/or pseudo"license" is getting to be a reality. Basic navigation is what everyone needs to know to avoid most of the crap that happens. Many new boaters are unaware that the lake is like a highway with right of way.
Lake Lice-same thing but renters need to take a 4 hour course before renting. This would educate the serious people and drive away those who just want to plunk down a few hundy and act the fool for an afternoon. Sea-Doos are now 12 feet long with 200+hp and are like missiles that can not only damage boats but kill passengers.
Take a number-Someone needs to figure out how many boats is a safe number for the Havasu-Laughlin stretch and enforce it by linking all launch areas together elctronically. Once that number is reached nobody else gets on. And everyone gets a number that must be displayed in plain view on the vessel. If you want to be a jerk off and several boaters want to turn your ass in for reckless and/or drunk driving, you can run from the cops with your 100mph rig but when you get to the channel the cops will pull your # and send you to the launch ramp. Your day is over. This will allow the boating community to enforce itself.
Gorge-Reasonable speed with radar enforcement. Yeah, speed traps suck but that little girl might still be alive if people were forced to drive like they had a brain.
In my perfect world people would just grow up and practice a little common sense and integrity to avoid stupid incidents. But if they can't someone has to force them to behave. And if they can't behave they should leave to protect the safety of the majority.
So what do you think? I'm gonna go cook some popcorn and put on my nomex underwear...:D

[ratso]

Like it or not, a free boating education course and/or pseudo"license" is getting to be a reality. Basic navigation is what everyone needs to know to avoid most of the crap that happens. Many new boaters are unaware that the lake is like a highway with right of way.
Lake Lice-same thing but renters need to take a 4 hour course before renting. This would educate the serious people and drive away those who just want to plunk down a few hundy and act the fool for an afternoon. Sea-Doos are now 12 feet long with 200+hp and are like missiles that can not only damage boats but kill passengers.
Take a number-Someone needs to figure out how many boats is a safe number for the Havasu-Laughlin stretch and enforce it by linking all launch areas together elctronically. Once that number is reached nobody else gets on. And everyone gets a number that must be displayed in plain view on the vessel. If you want to be a jerk off and several boaters want to turn your ass in for reckless and/or drunk driving, you can run from the cops with your 100mph rig but when you get to the channel the cops will pull your # and send you to the launch ramp. Your day is over. This will allow the boating community to enforce itself.
Gorge-Reasonable speed with radar enforcement. Yeah, speed traps suck but that little girl might still be alive if people were forced to drive like they had a brain.
In my perfect world people would just grow up and practice a little common sense and integrity to avoid stupid incidents. But if they can't someone has to force them to behave. And if they can't behave they should leave to protect the safety of the majority.
So what do you think? I'm gonna go cook some popcorn and put on my nomex underwear...:D
maybe a jock strap with a cup...;)

[mickeyfinn]

Like it or not, a free boating education course and/or pseudo"license" is getting to be a reality. Basic navigation is what everyone needs to know to avoid most of the crap that happens. Many new boaters are unaware that the lake is like a highway with right of way.
If you want to be a jerk off and several boaters want to turn your ass in for reckless and/or drunk driving, you can run from the cops with your 100mph rig but when you get to the channel the cops will pull your # and send you to the launch ramp. Your day is over. This will allow the boating community to enforce itself.
Gorge-Reasonable speed with radar enforcement. Yeah, speed traps suck but that little girl might still be alive if people were forced to drive like they had a brain.
In my perfect world people would just grow up and practice a little common sense and integrity to avoid stupid incidents. But if they can't someone has to force them to behave. And if they can't behave they should leave to protect the safety of the majority.
So what do you think? I'm gonna go cook some popcorn and put on my nomex underwear...:D
I'm in favor of a similar law for automobiles. I heard a comedian refer to it as the stupid law. Everyone with a license is issued a suction cup dart gun. The stupid law says that if you see someone driving stupid you shoot their car with a dart. If the police catch you with more than three darts on your car you get a ticket.:D

[vee-driven]

Some people are stupid and sometimes those stupid people die and sometimes those stupid people take innocent victims with them. In most motorsports such as drag racing, boat racing, nascar and motorcycle racing safety is the utmost importance and they still die and to think in the boating world a free class or no alcohol or not renting water craft or boats to people is gonna solve a damn thing is fukn retarded. STUPID people die and take innocent people with them and thats all there is to it and will always be that way nothing is gonna change and if this sport is too danger for some get a nice couch and stay your ass home.

[HighRoller]

I feel the same way, but the stupid way might be the only way to prevent us ALL from sitting on the couch during the summer because Havasu is now a fishing only lake. Wait a sec....those bass boats haul ass. Nothin' like Jim Bob blowin' your doors off with his metal flake rig that has a nitrous'd 300X with a 32" jack plate. The only thing touching the water is the prop!
I saw a guy with a twin OB Cougar who was making fun of the Bass boat guys. He entered a fishing derby and blew them all away to the first fishing spot doing over 120. Then as they all pulled into the cove he was sitting on the bow with a beer and his fishing pole ragging them. "Hey, I thought you said that thing was fast!" Can't recall what the show was called but it was hilarious.

[HM]

***boat did an article on this and the author completely ignored that the research they had actually was AGAINST boater safety courses and licensing. There research showed a significantly higher accident rate amoung boaters who HAD taken a safety course. I know you have your personal learning curve about navigational rules. But I look at it this way......
Look at ALL the idiots on the road. These people have a license, can take "safety" classes to get out of points on their record, and have to buy insurance by law...and there is an endless line of morons causing major accidents every day and 1000 times that many near accidents. Look at your post in the "freeway pet peeves" thread....MORONS!
I am totally against safety courses...at least with MY tax dollar. I want to see people PROSECUTED! I am old testament...and eye for an eye!
But, we are in the new America where it has to be someone elses fault...and even if it was your fault...you really didn't mean to and you probably have suffered enough....right? Or it is the fault of the person with deep pockets because they will often settle because it is cheap even when they are right.
The problem with safety courses is you can't educate stupid people. Even when you don't know all the rules...common sense will lead you to the reasoning of most laws. The feel good laws are the one's that don't make sense. Most laws are broken by people who don't give a shiat or are too stupid to figure it out. You can't legislate for either group(edit) and expect this to be a deterrent..laws are rarely a deterrent..they are mostly cause and effect. You can't put those people thru some magical education and they turn into "Good boaters."
Ain't gonna happen. More freedoms will be taken away and it will ultimately turn into a revenue stream to support the beaurocracy created to enforce it and monitor it and will completely miss the reason for creating it. Look at almost every government program out there and most of the time the title of the program is an oxymoron.

[Boatcop]

The reason for Boating laws are the same as for any other laws. Because people can't take responsibility for their own actions,or use common sense in their day-to-day lives.
"There's no law against hanging off the swim step and getting towed behind a wake board boat."
(At least there didn't used to be.)
"It's my right."
"They're taking away my freedoms."
"Our Country was formed on freedom."
"The man's keeping us down"
How about:
"I've been boating all my life. Why should I have to take a course."
Because you've been doing it wrong all your life. That's why!
Laws are not made to oppress the law abiding, responsible citizen. They are made to try and prevent the stupid and irresponsible from taking the rest of us out.
We can only sit back and watch people self-destruct and take others with them before something has to be done. Legislators don't sit up at night thinking of ways out of the blue to screw over the public. Before most laws are even considered there are studies to see: 1) if it's actually a problem and 2) If the law will help stop that problem. The answer to both of those has to be "YES", or it won't even make it through the first step.
When I first started getting involved in this business, boating fatalities were around 1,700 a year. Laws were passed, enforcement stepped up and now that figure is less than half of that. With about twice as many boats on the water.
1. There was a problem
2. The laws helped stop (or at least reduce) that problem.
If we were the same as we were back then, we'd have 3,500 fatalities a year, rather than 650-700.
The Government can only sit back and watch people fail to do what's right and continue killing and maiming innocent people for so long before they take action.
While a lot of people are responsible and try to do what's right, there's a good portion that either can't or won't. Hence new laws.
And just like you teach school to the stupidest kids, you pass laws for the stupidest people, those who can't or won't use common sense and responsibility.
And the rest of us suffer for it.

[vishus]

BC,
I helped a sunk jet in Laughlin this past weekend. The local LE in Laughlin would not help recover the boat. They asked if everyone was O.K., but they COULD NOT help with getting the boat out of the channel. Is this a liability issue? Is it similar to the issue in Gilbert, AZ where the fire department WOULD NOT put out a house that was on fire in a county island. No one wants to get sued over personal property.
My mother in law was yelling at LE to help and they said they couldn't. I talked to her later and was trying to explain what I thought was the reason they couldn't help (see above).
Is that correct?
thx.sid

[Boatcop]

***boat did an article on this and the author completely ignored that the research they had actually was AGAINST boater safety courses and licensing. There research showed a significantly higher accident rate amoung boaters who HAD taken a safety course. I know you have your personal learning curve about navigational rules. But I look at it this way......
Look at ALL the idiots on the road. These people have a license, can take "safety" classes to get out of points on their record, and have to buy insurance by law...and there is an endless line of morons causing major accidents every day and 1000 times that many near accidents. Look at your post in the "freeway pet peeves" thread....MORONS!
I am totally against safety courses...at least with MY tax dollar. I want to see people PROSECUTED! I am old testament...and eye for an eye!
But, we are in the new America where it has to be someone elses fault...and even if it was your fault...you really didn't mean to and you probably have suffered enough....right? Or it is the fault of the person with deep pockets because they will often settle because it is cheap even when they are right.
The problem with safety courses is you can't educate stupid people. Even when you don't know all the rules...common sense will lead you to the reasoning of most laws. The feel good laws are the one's that don't make sense. Most laws are broken by people who don't give a shiat or are too stupid to figure it out. You can't legislate for either group(edit) and expect this to be a deterrent..laws are rarely a deterrent..they are mostly cause and effect. You can't put those people thru some magical education and they turn into "Good boaters."
Ain't gonna happen. More freedoms will be taken away and it will ultimately turn into a revenue stream to support the beaurocracy created to enforce it and monitor it and will completely miss the reason for creating it. Look at almost every government program out there and most of the time the title of the program is an oxymoron.
I have to disagree with you on this one, Frank.
One of the things we put in every accident investigation/report is whether the boater(s) had any formal boating education/training.
Consistantly and across the nation a full 80%-90% of those involved in accidents had NO formal boating training.
I'm not sure what Hot Boat based their info on or who did their research, but it sure wasn't anyone in the Boating Safety community.

[HighRoller]

BC and HM, great posts. HM, I agree with your post in concept. I don't think the education piece will prevent morons from hurting people. But I do think it will help bridge the knowledge gap for those who are simply naive to the rules. I've met tons of nice people on the road and the lake who simply did not know the rules. The other deal is that once these people have signed a piece of paper that says they have "listened" to what the rules are, it's easier to bring enforcement against them when they act the fool.
Dude, don't get me wrong. I think dropping the hammer is the right thing. But in reality how many people cut you off and throw the sticks down and speed away? The cops don't have boats that can keep up with these idiots. We need to use technology to put idiots in check if we don't want the cops to start driving Skaters and engaging in high speed water pursuits.
The easiest solution is to enforce ourselves. Beyond that, make it so each boat operator is less anonymous.

[Boatcop]

BC,
I helped a sunk jet in Laughlin this past weekend. The local LE in Laughlin would not help recover the boat. They asked if everyone was O.K., but they COULD NOT help with getting the boat out of the channel. Is this a liability issue? Is it similar to the issue in Gilbert, AZ where the fire department WOULD NOT put out a house that was on fire in a county island. No one wants to get sued over personal property.
My mother in law was yelling at LE to help and they said they couldn't. I talked to her later and was trying to explain what I thought was the reason they couldn't help (see above).
Is that correct?
thx.sid
It's a liabilty and a commerce issue. There are people that are in business to raise sunk boats. If we were to do it, the Government would be in competition with private enterprise. And also, those companies are insured and bonded against damage, while we aren't. If anything were to happen, it would be the taxpayers paying for the damage.
Our responsibility is to prevent loss of life. As long as all persons are safe, our responsibility ends.
Our policy even states that we are prohibited from putting a line on a boat that's taking on water, sinking, sunk, on fire, or drifting into a imminent dangerous situation. Our only responsibility is to make sure that everyone's off the boat and safe.
Once you attach a line to another boat. You own it, and are liable for any damage until it is safely moored.

[vee-driven]

When i totalled my flatbottom in may 2001 in front of echo lodge due to parts failure and after getting cpr and all that fun stuff the only thing the cop cared about at the hospital was how much i had to drink i told him not a damn thing i don't drink and he actually told me i was lying and that he would be back when they finish my blood work, i told him F&%$ off, do what you gotta do and i never saw him again.

[vee-driven]

BC and HM, great posts. HM, I agree with your post in concept. I don't think the education piece will prevent morons from hurting people. But I do think it will help bridge the knowledge gap for those who are simply naive to the rules. I've met tons of nice people on the road and the lake who simply did not know the rules. The other deal is that once these people have signed a piece of paper that says they have "listened" to what the rules are, it's easier to bring enforcement against them when they act the fool.
Dude, don't get me wrong. I think dropping the hammer is the right thing. But in reality how many people cut you off and throw the sticks down and speed away? The cops don't have boats that can keep up with these idiots. We need to use technology to put idiots in check if we don't want the cops to start driving Skaters and engaging in high speed water pursuits.
The easiest solution is to enforce ourselves. Beyond that, make it so each boat operator is less anonymous.
The cops have radios, faster than any boat and unless your james bond where the hell are you gonna go on the water. If they want you your done.

[HM]

I'd rather see my tax dollars go to putting more cops on the water in bad ass boats. I think all the river cops should get a twin jet Trident and all the Lake guys should get bad ass proped deck boats. Nothing makes people act accordingly when the cops are around. It is amazing how much more cautious people are, even when they don't "know" the rules when the cops are around.
The statistics are always skewed, especially today when feel good fanatics are behind the push and legislators want to be voted for. No one understands what it means to be unbiased. Unbiased means you put as much effort into proving something right as you do wrong and vice versa. There is basically unlimited data available to prove any point you want and there are very few people who will question it because the "statistics" show it. No one even understands statistics...even many of the so called "experts." I had several upper division statistic classes in college....and the hard part is NOT the math. The hard part is interpreting the math and having the critical thinking ability to understand if the test/measurement/outcome make sense. Many times, they get numbers that don't make sense and don't support their theory..and they keeping changing it until they get what they want. I was the guy that they threw out my test score because it skewed the results...it made the rest of the class look bad. I would get a 98 or 100 on a statistics class, and when they threw out my score....a 48 would get you an A!!! So, by throwing out someone who got close to 100% correct...48% looked pretty smart? I am someone who is pretty good a sniffing out bogus statistics...and today...most are. They have to be!!! Because the other side is equally if not more skewing the numbers.
Kind of like how all the people who talk about the national debt will always use total dollars while ignoring the % as a percentage of GNP. And vice versa...what ever scares people more is what is used. Just like foreclosures being up 700%....never mind homeownership is up well over that over the last 10 years and if you looked at numbers that were more apples to apples...it wouldn't look as bad...actually might look about normal? Nah...that CAN'T BE!!!! The sky HAS to be falling! Don't get me wrong...there are a lot a bad things happening in real estate, but the bigger picture is not as bad as everyone thinks. Even if homes adjust by 50%...they are still higher than the last peak in the 80's even in inflation adjusted numbers.
Back to point. I vote for more cops in bad ass boats. :D

[rrrr]

If boaters had to take a safety and navigation course, we might see fewer posts where someone blasts the driver of a stand-on vessel for doing something stupid.
:idea: :D :D

[BoatPI]

You can't fix stupid.

[cruser]

True, but you can adjust ignorant.

[iRepo]

Well, you don't have to worry about new high powered cat owners not taking a course. The only way to get insurance on this type of boat without previous experience is to take the Tres Martin Performance Course. You can have over twenty years experience but if its not cat, it doesn't count. Your tax dollars don't have to pay for it either. I think it's just a matter of time for the same requirement to be made on stepped hulls if it hasn't been done already. The course was worth it too. Doesn't waste an experienced boaters time with what he already knows. Takes you right into what you may be missing with these types of boats.

[rrrr]

There are more than a few "experienced boaters" that don't have a clue about inland waters navigation rules.

[HM]

Well, you don't have to worry about new high powered cat owners not taking a course. The only way to get insurance on this type of boat without previous experience is to take the Tres Martin Performance Course. You can have over twenty years experience but if its not cat, it doesn't count. Your tax dollars don't have to pay for it either. I think it's just a matter of time for the same requirement to be made on stepped hulls if it hasn't been done already. The course was worth it too. Doesn't waste an experienced boaters time with what he already knows. Takes you right into what you may be missing with these types of boats.
You bring up a great point. Insurance companies have been some of the best catalyst to change in many industries. And insurance companies are not trying to create a revenue stream to support a beaurocracy behind it...because they are all about numbers. And if they think a safety training course will help...then I would be willing to change my position. Being in the insurance business and seeing the power insurance companies have for change is incredible.

[Boatcop]

You bring up a great point. Insurance companies have been some of the best catalyst to change in many industries. And insurance companies are not trying to create a revenue stream to support a beaurocracy behind it...because they are all about numbers. And if they think a safety training course will help...then I would be willing to change my position. Being in the insurance business and seeing the power insurance companies have for change is incredible.
Insurance companies are already in it. Most offer 10-25% discount on the premiums, if the insured has completed an approved course. If anyone's doesn't, then shop for one that does, and just take the course.
Boating Safety classes are NOT revenue streams. Most are free (like ours) or cost $5 per person- $10 per family. Usually just to defray what the instructors (mostly volunteer) pay out of pocket for supplies.
Even the one's court ordered into classes don't have to pay (unlike traffic school). All we want to do is educate the boating public. PERIOD.
'Cause if we don't educate them in the classroom, we'll be educating them on the water, in a courtroom, in the ER, or the morgue.

[driverno8]

I posted this on another thread.....
Why can't we take a test and have something on our drivers license. Similar to motorcycles. I have a M1 on my license. I had to take a test, both written and driving on my bike to get it. If we did the same thing for boating it would force EVERYONE to take a safety course and know the rules. Put like a "V" for vessel on there. (because B is taken). Getting pulled over on your boat would net the same ticket/fine as getting stopped on a bike with out a motorcycle license. Plus make it where you couldn't rent boats or PWC with out it, etc.

[HM]

Holy Moly, you are correct about the power of insurance companies however said companies have been a bigger detriment to modern medicine than anything the gov't could come up with.
Come to think about it, the gov't and insurance companies go hand in hand as it's all about power and total control.
You are right about health insurance. I was thinking property and casualty.
Well...who do you think the government goes to when they need a loan? They require insurance companies to keep so much in reserves that they end up being the biggest cash cows on the planet. you won't see a wave of insurance companies going out of business like the mortgage industry. Lenders/Banks are only required to keep 10% (give or take...it moves a little) of deposits on reserve...what they do is borrow roughly 9-10 times the reserves and still are meet the fed law. Now insurance companies are required to keep 106% of deposits on reserve...without borrowing! That is why insurance companies take way lower risk in their investments because they have a LOT of their money at risk where the banks basically have everyone else's money at risk. Even when insurance companies get in trouble...it can be seen a long way out and the said insurance company that is in trouble usually gets bought by another insurance company due to cash reserves...plus they re-insure the crap out of each other so they are all in it together...and the government also insures them at 3 x's the rate of the FDIC...which is NOT the federal government. I won't even get into how much money the FDIC is required to keep in reserves...but if you knew...you would know that FDIC doesn't mean dick. What were we talking about? :D

[AirtimeLavey]

I'm amazed at the estute HBers on here claiming that education has no value. Sure there are idiots that will always be idiots, but there is no logic to saying that educated (in boating safety) boaters will not make significantly safer boaters.
Cruser was right, you can't fix stupid, but you can adjust ignorant.
Just about everyone new to boating is always surprised they can just get in a boat and drive w/o a license or any training. That's because it goes against common sense.
Also, as for the insurance cos. fixing things, you're relying on the already stupid and ignorant to have or care about insurance. From what I've seen, the stupid and ignorant many times don't have ins.

[AirtimeLavey]

I'm amazed at the astute HBers on here claiming that education has no value. Sure there are idiots that will always be idiots, but there is no logic to saying that educated (in boating safety) boaters will not make significantly safer boaters.
Cruser was right, you can't fix stupid, but you can adjust ignorant.
Just about everyone new to boating is always surprised they can just get in a boat and drive w/o a license or any training. That's because it goes against common sense.
Also, as for the insurance cos. fixing things, you're relying on the already stupid and ignorant to have or care about insurance. From what I've seen, the stupid and ignorant many times don't have ins.

[HM]

I'm amazed at the estute HBers on here claiming that education has no value. Sure there are idiots that will always be idiots, but there is no logic to saying that educated (in boating safety) boaters will not make significantly safer boaters.
Cruser was right, you can't fix stupid, but you can adjust ignorant.
Just about everyone new to boating is always surprised they can just get in a boat and drive w/o a license or any training. That's because it goes against common sense.
Also, as for the insurance cos. fixing things, you're relying on the already stupid and ignorant to have or care about insurance. From what I've seen, the stupid and ignorant many times don't have ins.
You know....I take my education for granted because my dad took me along at an early age to actual navigation courses for sailing where I learned a LOT. I have also attended educational courses...but the difference is I sought them out...they were not forced on me.
Look at college degrees....how many people go to college and go thru the motions to get their degree for just the purpose of getting the degree with no value on the education itself. I was the "weird geek" that actually wanted to learn something. I have an ferocious appetite for information and knowledge. But, when you make it a requirement...the masses end up doing it because they have to...not because they want to and are no better or even worse after.

[iRepo]

Also, as for the insurance cos. fixing things, you're relying on the already stupid and ignorant to have or care about insurance. From what I've seen, the stupid and ignorant many times don't have ins.
The stupid and ignorant better be cash buyers and own the boat outright. I don't know of any finance companies that don't require comp and collision in their contracts.

[AirtimeLavey]

You know....I take my education for granted because my dad took me along at an early age to actual navigation courses for sailing where I learned a LOT. I have also attended educational courses...but the difference is I sought them out...they were not forced on me.
Look at college degrees....how many people go to college and go thru the motions to get their degree for just the purpose of getting the degree with no value on the education itself. I was the "weird geek" that actually wanted to learn something. I have an ferocious appetite for information and knowledge. But, when you make it a requirement...the masses end up doing it because they have to...not because they want to and are no better or even worse after.
I hear what you're saying, but statistics will show (:D) that just having a college degree will earn you a higher paycheck in most cases (not all - I earned more selling TV ads than my sister whose an MD in Newport Beach, and I only have some college). Besides, I did learn somethings in college that I still use today, and that wasn't stuff taught in the classroom....:devil:
Also, while they may not get the complete understanding, at least some things will stick to even the dullest tool in the shed. It's not the complete answer, but at least a very good proactive approach to the problem. It's unrealistic to think you could ever have enough LE cruising around to make a huge impact. Besides, who wants that. (Nothing against LE.)

[AirtimeLavey]

The stupid and ignorant better be cash buyers and own the boat outright. I don't know of any finance companies that don't require comp and collision in their contracts.
While I don't know the "stats", I'll bet there's a huge contingent of boats costing under $10k, that were bought w/o financing, and another huge group of more expensive boats bought with HELOC's. No ins. reqs. on either.

[iRepo]

While I don't know the "stats", I'll bet there's a huge contingent of boats costing under $10k, that were bought w/o financing, and another huge group of more expensive boats bought with HELOC's. No ins. reqs. on either.
Like I said, except CASH buyers. The good news is, my experience tells me that stupid people don't usually have any cash lying around and have very little equity if any at all. That leaves us with the ignorant. Since I would assume that we are talking just about their ignorance with boating experience and not necessarily with life in general, I am thinking the majority of the ignorant will have insurance. But, hell who knows. Gives me an idea for another thread...

[Strippoker]

Well, you don't have to worry about new high powered cat owners not taking a course. The only way to get insurance on this type of boat without previous experience is to take the Tres Martin Performance Course. You can have over twenty years experience but if its not cat, it doesn't count. Your tax dollars don't have to pay for it either. I think it's just a matter of time for the same requirement to be made on stepped hulls if it hasn't been done already. The course was worth it too. Doesn't waste an experienced boaters time with what he already knows. Takes you right into what you may be missing with these types of boats.
The Only problem is the course for most is only needed if the boat runs over 100 mph lower speed cats can still get insurance. An even with all the training in the world Murphys Law is a MOFO.