Helicopters & Boats...

[Jbb]

Seeking the perfect shot... (http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=623181680)

[RiverToysJas]

Why not let the camera lense bring it in close?
Seems like a lot of risk just for a photo......
RTJas

[MudPumper]

NO room for error. I doubt Powerboat pays enough for that kind of flying.

[RiverToysJas]

I bet the FAA would have a few things to say about that one.....
RTJas ;)

[Jordy]

Interesting timing Byron. :idea:

[seanv]

cant you get the same shots from parked boats with a good camera? wow:eek:

[Sleek-Jet]

I'd like to know how that works...
In formation flying with airplanes, the lead ship's pilot has his eyes out front, watching for other airplanes and keeping the formation headed in a generaly safe direction. The second ship (the one following) does what ever it takes to stay in position and never takes his eyes off the lead...
But in the helo/boat deal, it looks like the boat is maintaining a constant speed and course while the helo is out in front manuevering for a better shot... those guys must have eyes in the back of their head...

[Sleek-Jet]

I bet the FAA would have a few things to say about that one.....
RTJas ;)
I'm willing to bet they are operating on a waiver... so they are allowed to do that sort of thing.

[Jbb]

Interesting timing Byron. :idea:
Glad you found it interesting...and it's Brian

[Mandelon]

Pretty easy to see how things could go horribly wrong in about a tenth of a second.......:(

[RiverToysJas]

I'd like to know how that works...
In formation flying with airplanes, the lead ship's pilot has his eyes out front, watching for other airplanes and keeping the formation headed in a generaly safe direction. The second ship (the one following) does what ever it takes to stay in position and never takes his eyes off the lead...
But in the helo/boat deal, it looks like the boat is maintaining a constant speed and course while the helo is out in front manuevering for a better shot... those guys must have eyes in the back of their head...
I know at the Regatta, the pilot tells us to just drive straight, and they will move around to get the shots.
But you're right in that case, he's leading the boat and having to watch two directions at once......
RTJas

[SK48]

That is right in front of my house in Parker, and it is really fun to watch as the helicopter is usually below my living room windows when it goes by.

[Sleeper CP]

That is right in front of my house in Parker, and it is really fun to watch as the helicopter is usually below my living room windows when it goes by.
Someday when it hits the water don't forget to duck so you don't get taken out by a part of the rotor blade flying at a couple hundred mph.
At stated before, a lot could go wrong in about 1/10 of a second.
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover

[Pete454]

I am sure there is a complete brief between pilot and boat prior to doing the shoot. The investigation as to what happened in Sarasota continues. At that atlitude, if there is mechnical failure, there is not a lot one can do.

[Riverkid]

Heli's are super fragile. Stick a skid, you're gonna get wet. That guy is super low and very close. Good pilot, but what happens when something goes wrong at 60MPH, sideways...?
I've had some serious heli stuff done. Some of these guys are super good, other guys are pushing it a bunch...
Hope the pilot does well. He will know what happened. GB to the rest.

[rrrr]

Looks nutty to me. Unlike aircraft, helicopters are piloted from the right seat. In that particular situation, the pilot is looking across the cockpit and has an obstructed view of the water in the flight path.

[Sleek-Jet]

Looks nutty to me. Unlike aircraft, helicopters are piloted from the right seat. In that particular situation, the pilot is looking across the cockpit and has an obstructed view of the water in the flight path.
Are you saying whirlychoppers aren't aircraft?? :D :idea:

[rrrr]

Are you saying whirlychoppers aren't aircraft?? :D :idea:
Err......airplanes. ;)

[thatguy]

I went to the Off-shore helicopter races at Key West once, they call them boat races, but to me it Helicopter races with boats underneath. You could tell when a heat was ready to start because about 20 helicopters would come over the hills from the airport. Every boat had one, plus the news and sports channels.
Along the final stretch the boats come right along the jetty where we were sitting. Choppers were like 50 feet from us at best and MUCH closer to each other and the boats.
Kind of scary if you'd never seen it before. (I know I was scared!)
Tommy

[Baja Big Dog]

I went to the Off-shore helicopter races at Key West once, they call them boat races, but to me it Helicopter races with boats underneath. You could tell when a heat was ready to start because about 20 helicopters would come over the hills from the airport. Every boat had one, plus the news and sports channels.
Along the final stretch the boats come right along the jetty where we were sitting. Choppers were like 50 feet from us at best and MUCH closer to each other and the boats.
Kind of scary if you'd never seen it before. (I know I was scared!)
Tommy
Go to an offroad race some day, it looks like a heli drag race!!!

[thatguy]

Go to an offroad race some day, it looks like a heli drag race!!!
I can only imagine! It is very unfortunate about the crash in Florida this week. But frankly, I am surprised it doesn't happen more often, especially during races like You (and I) have described.
Tommy

[Riverkid]

Go to an offroad race some day, it looks like a heli drag race!!!
http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=39095&stc=1&d=1189704308

[Spotondl]

That pilot is Mark Waters, same guy who crashed recently during the Powerboat magazine shoot. I haven't heard of any updates on his status. He could fly his Hughes 300 backwards at the river by memory. Incredibly skilled pilot... Hope he makes it through... :(

[Tom Brown]

Why not let the camera lense bring it in close?
It's not the same.
I would not risk such an extreme ride in a helicopter to get a shot but I can tell you a long lens gives a completely different perspective. If you're going for a bird's eye view, you need to run a short lens and get close.

[Liquid Courage]

Just remember that video was part of PBM photo shoot. I'm not saying it's not low but remember that is crappy video quality from a distance at an angle which can all come into play to make it look even more dangerous than it is. Either Bob Teague or Johnny Tomlinson was driving the boat, Mark Waters flying and Tom Newby taking the pics. Tom and Mark have been working together for many many years and are like left and right hands of a body. Mark knew where to put the copter for Tom to take the shots.
You can't get the awesome pictures with out getting low like this. There's an inherant danger whith this job but all safety precautions are always taken. briefing and de-briefing on all shoots is mandatory. The drivers know what speed, what direction to travel for the heli. All involved are at the top of their game and have worked together countless times.
You can not compare this video to what happened in Florida. The result in Florida was mechanical failure according to Bob Teague who was driving the boat that was being photographed. I've spoken with those that were there several times and the information that the helicopter caught a skid is wrong.
And remember, whether you're at 100 feet with a zoon lense or you're 15-20 feet off the water, when you have a mechanical failure, you're screwed.

[Jbb]

Just remember that video was part of PBM photo shoot. I'm not saying it's not low but remember that is crappy video quality from a distance at an angle which can all come into play to make it look even more dangerous than it is. Either Bob Teague or Johnny Tomlinson was driving the boat, Mark Waters flying and Tom Newby taking the pics. Tom and Mark have been working together for many many years and are like left and right hands of a body. Mark knew where to put the copter for Tom to take the shots.
You can't get the awesome pictures with out getting low like this. There's an inherant danger whith this job but all safety precautions are always taken. briefing and de-briefing on all shoots is mandatory. The drivers know what speed, what direction to travel for the heli. All involved are at the top of their game and have worked together countless times.
You can not compare this video to what happened in Florida. The result in Florida was mechanical failure according to Bob Teague who was driving the boat that was being photographed. I've spoken with those that were there several times and the information that the helicopter caught a skid is wrong.
And remember, whether you're at 100 feet with a zoon lense or you're 15-20 feet off the water, when you have a mechanical failure, you're screwed.
So you know for a fact, that the helicopter had a mechanical failure?
Is that what your saying? or are you just speculating ...like everyone else?

[kap]

Preface:
This thread may or may not have been prompted by the recent tragedy in Florida, resulting in the death of two people and seriously injuring the pilot. The pilot at this time may or may not live through this ordeal.
Let me begin by saying we certainly are praying for all those involved in that horrific accident.
__________________________
Commentary:
If I read this thread right it demonstrates to what length and extent commercial enterprises will go to obtain that awesome photo which makes the cover of a publication.
Frankly, I was appalled by what the video in this thread depicted. That type of flying is "RECKLESS ENDANGERMENT" and waiver or not, criminal charges could be filed if loss of life were to occur. That type of conduct should be discouraged by everyone as the probability for error and severe injury/death is too high to justify the commercial endeavor to obtain the perfect photo.
This while not mentioning or taking into account the possible bystander who may be hurt while watching from his home, shoreline or in the boat below. The boating world is being assailed with more and more regulation--- add to this continued high risk incidents and accidents. What more needs to be said. I can only conclude, by saying no thanks, as I can do without that running shot from the air in my magazine of choice.
I hope and trust that people, businesses, and boaters will have the common sense to discourage such conduct. For those that disagree with this I would ask them to consider this hypothetical----How would you feel if a boat went by you within 25 feet at high speed to take that shot---one bounce or rogue swell and it's a collision. The same applies to an aircraft one gust of wind or mechanical issue and the margin for error = 0.
Multiple that factor with the "we do this all the time statement" and you have a recipe for disaster.
For those that say all precautions were taken and safety briefing's were done are missing the point. You simply cannot reduce the safety envelope to such a level were a minor occurrence either environmental or mechanical will turn into severe injury or death.
I understand that my position may be the unpopular one, but it makes more common sense than flying sideways at high speed for a photo.
Respectfully,
KAP

[Liquid Courage]

So you know for a fact, that the helicopter had a mechanical failure?
Is that what your saying? or are you just speculating ...like everyone else?
I've spoken to people at PBM that were at the scene. Bob Teague said the helicopter did not grab a skid and did not collide with the Skater. Theres also a video clip of him saying this to the news. I consider first hand account to be reliable, not speculation.

[Jbb]

I've spoken to people at PBM that were at the scene. Bob Teague said the helicopter did not grab a skid and did not collide with the Skater. Theres also a video clip of him saying this to the news. I consider first hand account to be reliable, not speculation.
I consider anything not announced by the FAA or NTSB ...to be speculation...

[EAZYKILLER2006]

Seeking the perfect shot... (http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=623181680)
DAMN!!!
and we are suppose to be getting our perfect HELICOPTER shot, in 2 weeks ...
maybe i dont want this :eek:
after all:(

[Liquid Courage]

I consider anything not announced by the FAA or NTSB ...to be speculation...
Look up the definition of speculation....I'd consider a finding (after the fact) by the FAA/NTSB to more in the lines of speculation than someone that was there watching it happen. In this case at least.

[Jbb]

Look up the definition of speculation....I'd consider a finding (after the fact) by the FAA/NTSB to more in the lines of speculation than someone that was there watching it happen. In this case at least.
That's funny....We could do this all day ....But I will let you have the last word......because the rational displayed in you're last post isnt worth discussion.....We all know this matter is going to wind up in a court room somewhere.....While eyewitness accounts are welcomed and applied to all cases in aircraft accidents.....Judgement is most likely to be swayed by the official findings of the investigating bodies....arguement prior to the release of their findings ....is childish...

[RiverDave]

Preface:
This thread may or may not have been prompted by the recent tragedy in Florida, resulting in the death of two people and seriously injuring the pilot. The pilot at this time may or may not live through this ordeal.
Let me begin by saying we certainly are praying for all those involved in that horrific accident.
__________________________
Commentary:
If I read this thread right it demonstrates to what length and extent commercial enterprises will go to obtain that awesome photo which makes the cover of a publication.
Frankly, I was appalled by what the video in this thread depicted. That type of flying is "RECKLESS ENDANGERMENT" and waiver or not, criminal charges could be filed if loss of life were to occur. That type of conduct should be discouraged by everyone as the probability for error and severe injury/death is too high to justify the commercial endeavor to obtain the perfect photo.
This while not mentioning or taking into account the possible bystander who may be hurt while watching from his home, shoreline or in the boat below. The boating world is being assailed with more and more regulation--- add to this continued high risk incidents and accidents. What more needs to be said. I can only conclude, by saying no thanks, as I can do without that running shot from the air in my magazine of choice.
I hope and trust that people, businesses, and boaters will have the common sense to discourage such conduct. For those that disagree with this I would ask them to consider this hypothetical----How would you feel if a boat went by you within 25 feet at high speed to take that shot---one bounce or rogue swell and it's a collision. The same applies to an aircraft one gust of wind or mechanical issue and the margin for error = 0.
Multiple that factor with the "we do this all the time statement" and you have a recipe for disaster.
For those that say all precautions were taken and safety briefing's were done are missing the point. You simply cannot reduce the safety envelope to such a level were a minor occurrence either environmental or mechanical will turn into severe injury or death.
I understand that my position may be the unpopular one, but it makes more common sense than flying sideways at high speed for a photo.
Respectfully,
KAP
Kap, while reading your post I had to ask myself the most obvious question..
How many people have died during photoshoots for boats?
While it looks dangerous as hell in the video, I don't proclaim to be an expert in the field of flying helicopters.. Obviously if people aren't dieing : everytime a photoshoot happens? Every other time? Every third time? Or how about every 100th time? Maybe even every 1000th time?
Then maybe it might not be as dangerous as everyone is making it out to be when you have guys like Teague and Mark handling the situation.
I.E. This is done by trained professionals, don't try this at home.
RD

[kap]

Hello RiverDave:
I agree with your statement. However, my agreement should not be construed as minimizing or mitigating, my vehement objection to the way the video of the photo shoot was done [video in post #1 by JBB].
The video in this thread is a very good one and demonstrates the extremely high degree of unnecessary risk in conducting a photo shoot. If they wish to continue such conduct perhaps a more isolated area of the river is more appropriate ie... where no houses or people are around.
This will ensure all the participants understand and agree to undertake the risks associated with such activities. This is exactly why manufacturers conduct videos/photos of vehicles at high speeds on closed courses or test tracks by professionals who know the risks and have no collateral third parties in the area.
Very truly yours,
KAP
P.S. If you saw this video and a wreck occurred right after----most people would have a different view point. In anycase, it makes us more aware and heightens our understanding of the degree of risk [to some skill] involved in taking high speed photos.

[ck7684]

Here's a shot from Airwolf. I know I have a better pic someplace, but this does show how close the pilots would get sometimes...
http://airwolf.tv-series.com/modules/multimedia/images/721.jpg

[River 4 Fun]

That pilot is Mark Waters, same guy who crashed recently during the Powerboat magazine shoot. I haven't heard of any updates on his status. He could fly his Hughes 300 backwards at the river by memory. Incredibly skilled pilot... Hope he makes it through... :(
We just got an update on Marks condition from his wife Leanne. His left leg is badly broken, Most of his ribs are broken and he is on a ventilator, though they are weaning him off of it. He is awake and communicating. Nobody really knows what happened yet. Hopefully, one day Mark can tell us.

[Liquid Courage]

That's funny....We could do this all day ....But I will let you have the last word......because the rational displayed in you're last post isnt worth discussion.....We all know this matter is going to wind up in a court room somewhere.....While eyewitness accounts are welcomed and applied to all cases in aircraft accidents.....Judgement is most likely to be swayed by the official findings of the investigating bodies....arguement prior to the release of their findings ....is childish...
Agreed. No point in arguing this and that was not the point of my post. My only point was my statement was not speculation it is straight from an extremely (over qualified) first hand witness. As of this point right now, I take Bobs word on what happened considering his history as a test driver (tested thousands of boats in situations like this) and a boat racer (concentration/ knowledge of surroundings). The FAA and NTSB can and will do their investigation but as of this point, there's no speculation on my part.

[MudPumper]

Looks nutty to me. Unlike aircraft, helicopters are piloted from the right seat. In that particular situation, the pilot is looking across the cockpit and has an obstructed view of the water in the flight path.
Most Helicopters can be piloted from either seat.
Just remember that video was part of PBM photo shoot. I'm not saying it's not low but remember that is crappy video quality from a distance at an angle which can all come into play to make it look even more dangerous than it is. Either Bob Teague or Johnny Tomlinson was driving the boat, Mark Waters flying and Tom Newby taking the pics. Tom and Mark have been working together for many many years and are like left and right hands of a body. Mark knew where to put the copter for Tom to take the shots..
No doubt Bob and Mark know what they are doing and are the most qualified, but even from the crappy video you can see quite clearly that at one point a skid drops at or below the height of the deck which puts it about 3 or 4 feet off the surface. At 4 feet, a gust of wind could push the copter into the deck.
[QUOTE=Liquid Courage;2789149]
And remember, whether you're at 100 feet with a zoon lense or you're 15-20 feet off the water, when you have a mechanical failure, you're screwed.
At 100 feet with forward momentum you still have a chance with a mechanical failure. At 15-20, no chance in hell.

[EAZYKILLER2006]

Seeking the perfect shot... (http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=623181680)
hey the links not working anymore...

[EAZYKILLER2006]

Seeking the perfect shot... (http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=623181680)
someone make this thing work damn it!
and don't rick roll me...
I'm on the iPhone

[spectras only]

I like it when the chopper is at least a 100' above the water . The boater would still have a chance to avoid collision in case the chopper has a failure .
We had a chopper crashed here a few years ago , killing a student and his instructor at the abbotsford airport. Report said the chopper was just serviced prior to the crash , the mechanic forgot to put oil in the tail rotor gear. I flew in real copters and it was always on my mind what could happen if one of the linkages to the swashplate broke :eek: Here are my choppers they're safer to fly :D
http://www3.telus.net/spectrasonly/IMG_0431.JPG
This chopper was a safe distance from my boat shooting this video .
Not as hot of a shot , but my boat isn't hot enough to get too close anyway:D
http://www3.telus.net/spectrasonly/ah.wmv

[kap]

Note: To readers;
________________________
On Saturday we were informed the pilots who film the Joker's Wild Promotions running shots were both killed in a crash.
Information, is they were returning from Fairchild Helicopters with a new/refurbished helo when the helo caught fire and crashed.
A unverified source indicated the helo was on fire while they were trying to make it to a highway to land and the fire consumed the helo to the point were one of the occupants jumped from the helo to their death.
A huge tragedy--- god bless and our deepest condolences to the pilots families.
KAP

[Tom Brown]

I consider anything not announced by the FAA or NTSB ...to be speculation...
I consider anything I read on ***boat to be speculation, except the stuff in Bench Racers which I consider to be bullshit.

[Jbb]

I consider anything I read on ***boat to be speculation, except the stuff in Bench Racers which I consider to be bullshit.
I consider the stuff I read in Bench Racers.......to be the Gold Standard in reliable internet boating related information...;)

[ck7684]

Haven't any of you seen crop dusters? These guys fly a few feet from the ground and dodge telephone poles, power lines, trees, cattle, etc. etc. I'm sure these pilots arent out there trying to kill themselves for a good photo when they arent even in it...

[Tom Brown]

I consider the stuff I read in Bench Racers.......to be the Gold Standard in reliable internet boating related information...;)
Ahhh.... you speak of the Hanson letters. Yes, I hold them in the highest regard as well. :cool:

[Jbb]

Ahhh.... you speak of the Hanson letters. Yes, I hold them in the highest regard as well. :cool:
To the floor!