PDA

View Full Version : Need some advice please-- Protection orders



Magic34
09-25-2007, 09:57 PM
Question for any who may know.
There is a guy who had worked with us for a number of years. He has been self destructing for the past few years and recently walked away from his income stream with us. I have a lawsuit I could file on him tomorrow, however we dont want to waste time or energy. I took the path of just ignoring him.
He has sent me an email that is vague when it comes to threat however I feel it could be intrepreted as a little threatening. The reason this concerns me is that the guy really has nothing in terms of family or even many assets (motorcyle and a truck). No house, no land, etc. Another concern of mine.
In this email, he used words like telling me "he will not allow me" and "I have 24 hours to respond" and then his last sentence is that "the clock is ticking and the ball is in my court."
Now normally I would just shrug these off. However in this case, he knows what neighborhood I live in. He has also shown signs of emotinally instability in the recent months. In my opinion, he has some anger issues.
So my question is... Is there remotely enough to gain a order of protection against him? I think there would be a 25% chance of him really going off the deep end and trying to come to my house. I am not really concerned with my personal well-being, however the thought of that idiot trying something to my family puts me in a rage. I have to play this with a very level head though.
Any advice?

BILLET
09-25-2007, 10:08 PM
I think the first order of business would be to contact the local police, next I would most definitely try to get a restraining order. As for the lawsuit against him, if he has nothing to take then you are just going to spend alot of money to take him to court, and get nothing from it.
Also if you get a restraining order it may also include a non contact phrase, meaning if he calls you or emails or sends a letter he is in violation of the order and will be arrested.
Good Luck Billet

WetWillie
09-25-2007, 10:08 PM
Have you been calling him names to??:(

caroftheweek
09-25-2007, 10:11 PM
did you buy that gun you were talking about a while back?:D
in all seriousness, that is a scary situation especially with the family involved. I have no advice other than keep us posted.

Magic34
09-25-2007, 10:13 PM
Have you been calling him names to??:(
Nope, set the guy to ignore in my mind and that in turn made it worse I guess.

Magic34
09-25-2007, 10:13 PM
And yes, he has nothing to take in a lawsuit. When you have nothing really to lose, what do you care what people try to take?

YeLLowBoaT
09-25-2007, 10:14 PM
And yes, he has nothing to take in a lawsuit. When you have nothing really to lose, what do you care what people try to take?
But the lawsuit might just give you some ammo for getting that order of protection.

Magic34
09-25-2007, 10:14 PM
did you buy that gun you were talking about a while back?:D
.
No. I have been cut off from spending a dime until the dually goes away.

squirt'nmyload
09-25-2007, 10:16 PM
my advice is to have a big BBQ and invite all of us over in 22 hours. then we can wait for this scumbags move upon the expiration of your 24 hour deadline :D :D

caroftheweek
09-25-2007, 10:18 PM
No. I have been cut off from spending a dime until the dually goes away.
Wives will do that from time to time:D :D

Magic34
09-25-2007, 10:20 PM
my advice is to have a big BBQ and invite all of us over in 22 hours. then we can wait for this scumbags move upon the expiration of your 24 hour deadline :D :D
My wife is nervous but I really dont think he would come over here. However, I am sure in everything you see on the news, they felt the same way.
I read his 24 hour threat as a misguided business calculation. However, there is always that question. That is why I am asking here as stupid as it may be.

TheCarDudes
09-25-2007, 10:23 PM
No. I have been cut off from spending a dime until the dually goes away.
Idea:
I'll buy one over here and say I'm just holding it for you until you get out to Cali. You buy one over there and tell D that you are just holding it for me until the next time we get together.
As long as our wives don't talk, we're good. :D

TheCarDudes
09-25-2007, 10:24 PM
On a more serious note, sucks to gear you are going through this. Always ask, does the end justify the means. What does this guy want from you? Money? Is he just a head case?

C-2
09-25-2007, 10:26 PM
...

ROZ
09-25-2007, 10:26 PM
Nope, set the guy to ignore in my mind and that in turn made it worse I guess.
Since you responded to WetWillie, I guess it wasn't him :D
Hope it all works out :)

Magic34
09-25-2007, 10:29 PM
On a more serious note, sucks to gear you are going through this. Always ask, does the end justify the means. What does this guy want from you? Money? Is he just a head case?
No, does not want a dime. Over the years, he has fed lies to other people in our business across the US. Those are coming to bite him in the a$$ in terms of his reputation. He wants me to "clear" his name or else basically. I am not telling anyone anything. My response will be nothing which is what it has to be and has been all along. That "or else" is whatis up for the decision. Is that trying to hurt business, which does not worry me for a split second, or is that a personal threat.

DeltaSigBoater
09-25-2007, 10:36 PM
No, does not want a dime. Over the years, he has fed lies to other people in our business across the US. Those are coming to bite him in the a$$ in terms of his reputation. He wants me to "clear" his name or else basically. I am not telling anyone anything. My response will be nothing which is what it has to be and has been all along.
People bring this crap on themselves, its just the or else you have to be careful of.

boats&bars
09-25-2007, 10:55 PM
that 25% chance is not worth the risk of possably having your family hurt.
call the police and file a report. then get a temp restraining order. oh yea and its better to ask for forgiveness than permision. buy the gun. you might want to take a different route home each night. you just never know. hope it all works out.

Wizard29
09-26-2007, 05:45 AM
Not sure how it works in AZ, but here in CA, you must have good cause to get a TRO (Temporary Restraining Order). So far it doesn't seem like there is much to issue a TRO on. Based on what I read here, he has not made any specific threats and has not taken any threatening actions.
There is probably more to it, but on the surface, it seems like a business relationship gone bad and at most a civil dispute at this point. Based on that alone, you'd be hard pressed to get a TRO. You can try, but be well prepared to articulate (with solid facts) why you feel one is required and why you are in fear for your safety and the safety of your family.
You could try to file a police report, but it depends on how accomodating the police in your area want to be. The general criteria used for generating a police report is "What crime was committed?" or "What siginificant incident took place that should be documented?" You don't yet have any crime, and civil disputes at this level rarely qualify as significant enough to have law enforcement involved. But, you could contact the local PD and see what they will do for you. Some are more willing to get involved in stuff like that than others.
Wizard29 <----- Former LE with plenty of experience in TRO issues and civil disputes.

Cheap Thrills
09-26-2007, 06:20 AM
I believe it is a Federal crime to communicate threats via any electronic means.
Save the emails and the and the message properties for the originating IP and forward it to the FBI and your local authorities. Don't ever take idle threats lightly. esp. from someone with nothing to lose.
A restraining order would be in your and your families best interest and I doubt you will have trouble having one issued.
:edit: I've re read your post and the threat/s seem a little vague. Since he didn't specify any type of physical harm it may be more difficult to have an order of protection issued. I would still send copies to the local authorities. If he's that far down with nothing to lose there are probably drugs involved, another reason for the authorities to keep an eye on him.
That's just my opinion.
Best of Luck
T.

Baja Big Dog
09-26-2007, 06:36 AM
Ten words
1 Documentation
2 Documentation
3 Documentation
4 Documentation
5 Documentation
6 DOCUMENTATION
7 DOCUMENTATION
8 DOCUMENTATION
9 DOCUMENTATION
10 DOCUMENTATION
11 DOCUMENTATION
As mentioned before, the cops are not going to be too interested in your "problem". and don't expect too much interest from them, but DO go the local LEO house and let them know whats going on, and get names and numbers from the people that you talk to. Restraining orders are not that hard to get, but there are not much help in the case of someone that wants to hurt you. Is this guy full of shit, maybe 99% he is, but what is the value of that 1%?
Wife wont let you buy a gun, fine, advise her to walk in front of you when you go out!, Ill lend yo a fricken gun, not saying to go kill the guy, but as I have preached before, I at least want to be on the same playing field as someone that may want to harm me, or god forbid my family.
Blow this off???I wouldnt...sounds like some chemicals may be a leading factor to this guys behavior, we don't know, the patterns are there, and if that's the case, I don't care how long you have known him, he probably not the guy he once was.

LHC30Victory
09-26-2007, 06:51 AM
Sorry to hear about this - these type of problems are very troublesome because you never really know what this person is capable of or what his desires are. For instance, the ultimatum and deadline words he has used may simply be his frustration at being unable to resolve the issues himself (and that he brought them on by himself :D ). Regardless of his true motivation, the restraining order (as far as Cali) was covered well by Magic29. One consideration is that such an order would serve more to further frustrate this person than to protect anyone - it is a simple piece of paper remember!
I would sit down with my wife and perhaps good neighbors and have a plan if this person does show up. Nothing too elaborate, but something that would serve security interests such as calling the local PD if he is seen in the area, where in the house are safe rooms is he shows, what to do at the market if he appears and the like.
I suspect that his anger will blow over, but it is that 1% that you must consider...

Wicked Performance Boats
09-26-2007, 06:51 AM
In Nevada, if you have a TPO you cannot possess a firearm. I;d reather have firearms. TPO's don't stop anybody unless the cops catch them in the act. Pat Good Luck

Magic34
09-26-2007, 07:09 AM
Not sure how it works in AZ, but here in CA, you must have good cause to get a TRO (Temporary Restraining Order). So far it doesn't seem like there is much to issue a TRO on. Based on what I read here, he has not made any specific threats and has not taken any threatening actions.
There is probably more to it, but on the surface, it seems like a business relationship gone bad and at most a civil dispute at this point. Based on that alone, you'd be hard pressed to get a TRO. You can try, but be well prepared to articulate (with solid facts) why you feel one is required and why you are in fear for your safety and the safety of your family.
You could try to file a police report, but it depends on how accomodating the police in your area want to be. The general criteria used for generating a police report is "What crime was committed?" or "What siginificant incident took place that should be documented?" You don't yet have any crime, and civil disputes at this level rarely qualify as significant enough to have law enforcement involved. But, you could contact the local PD and see what they will do for you. Some are more willing to get involved in stuff like that than others.
Wizard29 <----- Former LE with plenty of experience in TRO issues and civil disputes.
I am fairly tight with many officers in our city, so maybe I could try that route.
I know I dont have a lot of concrete stuff if any, however, any threat regardless of how small or what the underlying issue or meaning would be should be viewed as very serious in the workplace today. Does LE have that same view?
Bottom line. I have simply ignored this guy for a year. He has a huge ego and wants everyone to hear his name every day, but not do the things that would make that possible (winning promos, etc).

Rock-A-Bye-Baby
09-26-2007, 07:32 AM
I agree with the suggestions that say that you don't have much to gain a TRO. My suggestion would be to vaguely respond to his email request, perhaps stating that you "have read and understand his position and will do what you can to fix the issues addressed in the email" and then go about your business. You may endure a couple more email threats but in all likelyhood that guy will dissapear and go on to be someone else's miserable employee.
Good luck.

Jordy
09-26-2007, 07:42 AM
my advice is to have a big BBQ and invite all of us over in 22 hours. then we can wait for this scumbags move upon the expiration of your 24 hour deadline :D :D
Hey, I think this is a great idea!!! :D :D :D
Otherwise, you can play a different card. Warm up to the guy, invite him out on the big boat over in Newport and take him halfway to Catalina. ;)

Singleton
09-26-2007, 07:48 AM
Have your lawyer call him and leave and message. Worked last time I had to deal with Leslie ex-husband, lawyer called him, scared him with legal action and he stopped and stated he was sorry.

Magic34
09-26-2007, 07:55 AM
Hey, I think this is a great idea!!! :D :D :D
Otherwise, you can play a different card. Warm up to the guy, invite him out on the big boat over in Newport and take him halfway to Catalina. ;)
What other services does team turnkey offer? :D

Cheap Thrills
09-26-2007, 08:00 AM
What other services does team turnkey offer? :D
Although not a member I can suggest a royal screwing by dropping a bag of dope and a throw away piece under the seat of his truck and then making that anonymous call .. Problem Solved. ;)
T.

Jordy
09-26-2007, 08:03 AM
What other services does team turnkey offer? :D
Well, we do offer a class titled "Swimming with more cinder blocks than you can carry." :D :D :D

DeltaSigBoater
09-26-2007, 08:08 AM
Well, we do offer a class titled "Swimming with more cinder blocks than you can carry." :D :D :D
That sounds like underwater basket weaving, but without the scuba gear :D

ULTRA26 # 1
09-26-2007, 08:09 AM
Mike,
It doesn't sound as if you have a clear threat. If the guy has gone down hill as a result of chemicals, it's much more difficult to predict his next move. Unless he has clearly threatened you or your family, LE probably won't be to responsive. You are, no doubt, the best one to judge if a gun is necessary.
I would follow BBD's suggestion regarding documentation. Keep a written record of everything, including all communications and actions.
If you seriously have fear that this guy is capable of harming you or your family, get LE involved, to at least be on record. Just my .02
John M

Wizard29
09-26-2007, 09:49 AM
I know I dont have a lot of concrete stuff if any, however, any threat regardless of how small or what the underlying issue or meaning would be should be viewed as very serious in the workplace today. Does LE have that same view?
They do, but you don't have what could be considered a "threat" here. "He will not allow..." "You have 24 hours to respond...." and/or "The clock is ticking..." are not really what could be considered clear threats.
"You have 24 hours to respond or I'll kill you" and "The clock is ticking on that bomb I'm going to put on your porch" would be considered good enough threats to act on.
Of course it all depends on the context of the situation, but as has been described here, there's nothing to go on.
If the guy is a dirtbag like you indicate, it probably won't be long before you do have something on him.

centerhill condor
09-26-2007, 11:28 AM
the fun starts when you get an order of protection. Dude, I haven't seen a court order yet that stops a 45!
Just walk away and allow him to do the same.
CC

Magic34
09-26-2007, 11:35 AM
the fun starts when you get an order of protection. Dude, I haven't seen a court order yet that stops a 45!
Just walk away and allow him to do the same.
CC
I have waked away for a year now and will continue to do the same. He keeps trying to dig at me though. It doesn't get to me, and I didn't respond to the email he sent me last night.
Just exploring my options which are what I thought they were as of now. Slim.

Flyinbowtie
09-26-2007, 11:49 AM
I agree with some of the previous posters. Continue to ignore his emails, but print and date/time stamp them. Engaging in a conversation with someone this delusional and probably under the influence is pointless.
I would contact your local cop shop, and explain to the officer you speak to your interpetation of the intent of the suspect, and your perception of his ability to carry through wth it. Communicate your concerns, and that you take the suspect's implied treats seriously, based on his ongoing unprovoked communications, your suspicions of drug use, etc. Tell the cop you know there isn't enough for a crime report, you simply want him to document the event in case the suspect takes the matter to a new level.
Get the cops name, get an incident number, or log entry number or whatever from him that makes the information retrievable in the future.
If you have reached a point where you are considering purchasing a firearm, and are discussing contigency plans on what to do if the guy shows up at your home/place of business with your family, then the threat, in your mind, is real.
The cop needs to know that.
Good luck, I hope the moron just crawls back into his hole.

Screaming Pete
09-26-2007, 01:09 PM
hire a PI and have him followed, and hire a s guard for a week for you and your family,

trawfish
09-26-2007, 01:40 PM
pm sent .........

C-2
09-26-2007, 06:07 PM
Hire a local AZ PI to do a background on the guy, preferably find somebody who specializes in threat assessment/management. Find out if he has weapons permits, guns or a past history of TRO’s or harassment. Typically, guys like this spread their love to others and it’s common to find other past cases and convictions – which is strong ammo if they are on probation for prior acts.
If you truly believe he is willing to sacrifice his own freedom to get his point across, then you need to have the threat assessed.

Boatcop
09-26-2007, 06:19 PM
If you or your family feel threatened, then you ARE threatened.
Go down to the local City Magistrate, or JP if you're outside city limits. Take out a OPH (Order Prohibiting Harassment) and have the local Gendarmes serve it on him.
If it's not what you think, then he'll have a chance to go to court and prove that the OPH isn't needed, and you misunderstood his message. You'll be in court at that time, since if you aren't he can tell the Judge anything.
You actually don't need to be threatened, you only have to show that you don't want him harassing you at work or at home, and that email is proof of harassment.
No, the piece of paper won't stop someone hell bent on hurting you, but it WILL give cause to have him picked up if he comes by, calls, sends email, or even drives by the shop or house.

Magic34
09-27-2007, 11:16 AM
I was advised to send him a request to terminate any and all communication and that any additional communication after that point would be deemed as harassment. My understanding from LE, once I sent that message, anything he sent me after would be received as harassment and I can get a harassment order against him.
I sent him the email at 11:07 and he responded at 11:34. It was very clear in a polite manner not to contact me or anyone affiliated with my company ever again in that 11:07 message.
So... With what I have done, can I get the harassment order?
Thanks!

C-2
09-27-2007, 12:58 PM
Since you’re posting the question, I’m thinking you are not sure LE is advising you correctly? I am not familiar with AZ courts and their burdens for proof, maybe somebody else can chime in with detailed info.
I’m also guessing LE is giving standard advice for domestic/workplace (employee) violence scenarios, which doesn’t sound like the case here. Thus far it sounds more like civil harassment since a business relationship existed.
If the other party raises a subjective or "triable" issue and no specific threat has been made, your action could be premature since it hasn’t risen to the level of threats, or criminal harassment. For example, a person cannot simply tell a creditor to stop contacting them, and then file for a TRO if they continue to do so.
Here in Cali the courts would not readily grant a TRO in the situation you describe (at least not yet). Again, the majority of protection orders are structured for IMMEDIATE domestic and workplace violence THREATS (criminal in nature), not unpleasant business disputes. Some Orders for Protection require firearms turnover and other requirements which infringe upon a persons constitutional rights – so courts do use discretion and get pissed if they believe you are manipulating their protective powers.
C-2 <---- Only playing the devils advocate, but with an informed opinion.:)

HokeySon
09-27-2007, 01:11 PM
Not sure how it works in AZ, but here in CA, you must have good cause to get a TRO (Temporary Restraining Order). So far it doesn't seem like there is much to issue a TRO on. Based on what I read here, he has not made any specific threats and has not taken any threatening actions.
There is probably more to it, but on the surface, it seems like a business relationship gone bad and at most a civil dispute at this point. Based on that alone, you'd be hard pressed to get a TRO. You can try, but be well prepared to articulate (with solid facts) why you feel one is required and why you are in fear for your safety and the safety of your family.
You could try to file a police report, but it depends on how accomodating the police in your area want to be. The general criteria used for generating a police report is "What crime was committed?" or "What siginificant incident took place that should be documented?" You don't yet have any crime, and civil disputes at this level rarely qualify as significant enough to have law enforcement involved. But, you could contact the local PD and see what they will do for you. Some are more willing to get involved in stuff like that than others.
Wizard29 <----- Former LE with plenty of experience in TRO issues and civil disputes.
I disagree. In CA it is very easy to get a civil personal restraining order in the first instance. It is pretty much an over the counter thing, with an opportunity for the other party to have a hearing if they want to have it vacated.
Check your city/county/court websites. I am sure that you will find the correct procedures to follow (and I would doubt they include having to file a police report). Good luck.
As I read some of the subsequent posts, I realize that I should be clear I am talking about a stay away order -- not a more restrictive order.

Magic34
09-27-2007, 01:18 PM
Since you’re posting the question, I’m thinking you are not sure LE is advising you correctly? I am not familiar with AZ courts and their burdens for proof, maybe somebody else can chime in with detailed info.
I’m also guessing LE is giving standard advice for domestic/workplace (employee) violence scenarios, which doesn’t sound like the case here. Thus far it sounds more like civil harassment since a business relationship existed.
If the other party raises a subjective or "triable" issue and no specific threat has been made, your action could be premature since it hasn’t risen to the level of threats, or criminal harassment. For example, a person cannot simply tell a creditor to stop contacting them, and then file for a TRO if they continue to do so.
Here in Cali the courts would not readily grant a TRO in the situation you describe (at least not yet). Again, the majority of protection orders are structured for IMMEDIATE domestic and workplace violence THREATS (criminal in nature), not unpleasant business disputes. Some Orders for Protection require firearms turnover and other requirements which infringe upon a persons constitutional rights – so courts do use discretion and get pissed if they believe you are manipulating their protective powers.
C-2 <---- Only playing the devils advocate, but with an informed opinion.:)
The guy just sent me another email.
Now, you are correct, there is a lot of things that simply come across as a business relationship gone bad. However, his choice of words from that initial email is what I feel is threatening.
"The clock is ticking" is a phrase he used after telling me that I would not be allowed to do something. The only part I have in question in most of this is that part about ticking.
In the workplace, if a person you did business with is acting in a way like this guy and tells you the clock is ticking, that gives me reason for concern. "What" exactly is ticking could be open to many things, and that is where I consider a threat has been made.
I was not questioning what other LE has told me here and elsewhere. I just dont want to look like a jacka$$ if I go to seek this order. I want to have everything in line.

HokeySon
09-27-2007, 01:31 PM
The guy just sent me another email.
Now, you are correct, there is a lot of things that simply come across as a business relationship gone bad. However, his choice of words from that initial email is what I feel is threatening.
"The clock is ticking" is a phrase he used after telling me that I would not be allowed to do something. The only part I have in question in most of this is that part about ticking.
In the workplace, if a person you did business with is acting in a way like this guy and tells you the clock is ticking, that gives me reason for concern. "What" exactly is ticking could be open to many things, and that is where I consider a threat has been made.
I was not questioning what other LE has told me here and elsewhere. I just dont want to look like a jacka$$ if I go to seek this order. I want to have everything in line.
You know the guy and are best able to gauge his intent from his language. Personally, the clock is ticking doesn't sound threatening to me, but I guess I could feel differently depending on the source.
Another alternative for you is to have a lawyer write him a letter telling him to cease any further communication or a lawsuit will be filed. That can work. I once had a client ask me to write such a letter and I did so. It worked for him, but the crazy woman then turned her attention to me. She would call more than 50 times a day some days and leave three minute messages (that is all the time the machine would allow for one message). She would fax me 20 times a day. It was unbelievable. It was also a bad deal for me -- a couldn't bill for all that nonsense. She finally went away -- but I am not sure why.

Magic34
09-27-2007, 02:18 PM
You know the guy and are best able to gauge his intent from his language. Personally, the clock is ticking doesn't sound threatening to me, but I guess I could feel differently depending on the source.
Another alternative for you is to have a lawyer write him a letter telling him to cease any further communication or a lawsuit will be filed. That can work. I once had a client ask me to write such a letter and I did so. It worked for him, but the crazy woman then turned her attention to me. She would call more than 50 times a day some days and leave three minute messages (that is all the time the machine would allow for one message). She would fax me 20 times a day. It was unbelievable. It was also a bad deal for me -- a couldn't bill for all that nonsense. She finally went away -- but I am not sure why.
I understand where you are coming from, however a lawsuit wont do anything to him. All he has to lose is a motorcycle valued at $15k. Seriously, and I cant touch his federal/military retirement income from what I understand. Not saying that I would want to do that, actually I dont. I want him to disappear and go about his business somewhere else, but he is not doing that.
When he gets upset, he sits in front of his computer and the anger gets deeper. Will he come after me, I dont know. If he did try something to me and it was in the news, looking at these emails shows someone with a problem and a issue with me. It would make sense. Isn't this how all the crazy stories start?
Watch a video or show of someone being rushed to the hopsiptal and time is of the essesnce to save their life. Then read an email that has text like the clock is ticking. The average person might think about getting somewhere quickly.
Now watch a video of a car bomb going off. Then read something with the text the clock is ticking after that video, those words mean something different to you.