Indian Gaming.. Anyone notice how much money they are making?

[Magic34]

I saw a commercial on Indian Gaming here in AZ and it had me thinking. The commercial was indirectly saying that they had so much money they could buy local communities new police vehciles and such.
My thought... Why should the state let them collect everything they do? Why not go to vote and legalize gambling in certain areas or sections to simply compete for those dollars?
If the indian communities can easily do this and the properties really are not outside of town, what is the difference if the state allowed gambling in other areas within city limits?

[Havasu_Dreamin]

Soverign Nation.....

[Brewzed]

I just saw something over the weekend about Arnie signing a bill into law that says they have to pay a percentage. Supposed to be around 9 billion a year to the state. Not 100% sure, just caught a glimpse and thought it was about time.

[Havasu_Dreamin]

I just saw something over the weekend about Arnie signing a bill into law that says they have to pay a percentage. Supposed to be around 9 billion a year to the state. Not 100% sure, just caught a glimpse and thought it was about time.
I think it was $9 billion over the next 10 years or something like that...

[Some Kind Of Monster]

I would LOVE to know WTF the indians do with all the money they make at those casinos. If you go ot the casinos they are ALWAYS packed. 1pm, 1am, it doesn't matter.. if you drive down a local road in Whiteriver, or in McNary, or those indian communities it becomes obvious that the people aren't seeing any of the money. Their roads suck, they let their land go to hell. Drive around in the white mountains and see for yourself. I know specifically of a spot where they dump their garbage and you wouldn't believe the crap out there. Old tractors, refrigerators, cars.. everything under the sun out in the forrest. Tell me they don't have the money to dispose of their trash. I know they do. Where does their money go!?!?!?

[voodoomedman]

I think it was $9 billion over the next 10 years or something like that...
Something for something. Isn't that in exchange for allowing them to increase the number of slot machines. And it is only for the tribes that entered into the agreement.

[Nord]

Boatcop is very educated on this so I'm sure he will chime in soon. I know that the Pechanga indians that work at the casino make about 30k a month!:jawdrop:
Could you imagine being a janitor and making that kind of dough!

[Magic34]

I would LOVE to know WTF the indians do with all the money they make at those casinos. If you go ot the casinos they are ALWAYS packed. 1pm, 1am, it doesn't matter.. if you drive down a local road in Whiteriver, or in McNary, or those indian communities it becomes obvious that the people aren't seeing any of the money. Their roads suck, they let their land go to hell. Drive around in the white mountains and see for yourself. I know specifically of a spot where they dump their garbage and you wouldn't believe the crap out there. Old tractors, refrigerators, cars.. everything under the sun out in the forrest. Tell me they don't have the money to dispose of their trash. I know they do. Where does their money go!?!?!?
I am sure the state gets "something" but really, why not compete? If they are there, let the big developers do their thing and put the money back into the state.

[Havasu_Dreamin]

Something for something. Isn't that in exchange for allowing them to increase the number of slot machines. And it is only for the tribes that entered into the agreement.
Something like that.....

[Baja Big Dog]

Boatcop is very educated on this so I'm sure he will chime in soon. I know that the Pechanga indians that work at the casino make about 30k a month!:jawdrop:
Could you imagine being a janitor and making that kind of dough!
Wrong-O Nord-O..they dont "work" at the casinos, they just collect the fricken checks every month....nice gig huh????
And they get an annual bonus!!!

[Boatcop]

Several years ago there were 3 different propositions in Arizona regarding Gaming.
1. Was to pretty much open gaming state wide. (like Nevada)
2. Was to allow and expand Indian Gaming, with certain provisions.
3. Was proposed (and 100% funded) by our CRIT Tribe, which would remove all restrictions and oversight on Indian Gaming, and let them do whatever they wanted.
#2 won. It allowed additional slot machines per tribe, based upon tribal membership and allowed tribes that didn't have casinos to give their share of the slot machines to other tribes, in exchange for a share of the profit. Also allowed table games like Blackjack.
It required that the tribes contribute to the communities they are located in to enhance health care, public safety or education. And to give a percentage to the State for regulatory purposes.
That's where the fire training vehicle, police cars, etc. came from in the East Valley. Here in Parker, they built the new ER at the Hospital. A huge improvement, but it's still owned by the Tribe, since it's located on Tribal Leased land.
#1 would have done what you suggest, allowing Nevada-type gaming across the State. It was soundly defeated, as was the CRIT deal.
Not saying all tribes are corrupt, but the Tribal independence and prosperity that gaming was supposed to provide hasn't materialized. Some Tribes (like Pachenga) are trying to oust members, so the ruling clan can get more. The smaller tribes with gaming are the one's benefitting the most, since there are fewer members to pay. Others, like CRIT, don't have any payments (called "per-capita") to their members, who are screaming to know where the money is.
In many cases, the chosen few and ruling families of the tribes are very well to do, while the rank and file members haven't seen any improvement in services or their lifestyle.

[Throttle]

I think it was $9 billion over the next 10 years or something like that...
yeah, lets see if that money goes where they say it will...

[Troy McClure]

Rep Campbell from Irvine is trying to push through a bill that would require a people trying to be recognized as a tribe have a 25 year wait before they are allowed to operate/own a casino. Sounds like a great idea to me. Will keep those trying to just benefit from the Indian casino monopoly out while those who are trying to really be recognized as a tribe to do so.
Also, there are currently over 200 applicants petitioning the American government for official recognition of their tribes. I would guess the surge is not because they just want to preserve their heritage....

[Boatcop]

Here's an intersting article on one of Southern California Gaming Tribes.
Maryann Martin presides over America's smallest tribe. Raised in Los Angeles in an African-American family, she knew little of her Indian ancestry until 1986, when at age 22 she learned that her mother had been the last surviving member of the Augustine Band of Cahuilla Mission Indians. In 1991, the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) certified Martin and her two younger brothers as members of the tribe. Federal recognition of tribal status opened the door for Martin and her siblings to qualify for certain types of government aid. And with it, a far more lucrative lure beckoned: the right to operate casinos on an Indian reservation.
As Indian casinos popped up like new housing developments across Southern California, martin moved a trailer onto the long-abandoned Augustine reservation in Coachella, a 500-acre desert tract then littered with garbage, discarded household appliances and junk cars, about 25 miles southeast of Palm Springs. There she lived with her three children and African-American husband William Ray Vance. In 1994, membership of the tiny tribe dwindled from three adults to one when Martin's two brothers were killed during separate street shootings in Banning, Calif. Police said both men were involved in drug deals and were members of a violent Los Angeles street gang.
Subsequently, Martin negotiated a deal with Paragon Gaming, a Las Vegas company, to develop and manage a casino. Paragon is headed by Diana Bennett, a gaming executive and daughter of Vegas veteran and co-founder of the Circus Circus Casino, William Bennett. martin's Augustine Casino opened last July. With 349 slot machines and 10 gaming tables, it's the fifth and by far the most modest casino in the Palm Springs area. But it stands to make a lot of non-Indian investors -- and one Indian adult -- rich.
And get this: Martin sill qualifies for federal aid, in amounts far greater than what many needy Native Americans could even dream of getting. In 1999 and 2000 alone, government audit reports show, she pulled in more than $1 million from Washington - $476,000 for housing, $400,000 for tribal government and $146,000 for environmental programs.
That's part of an in-depth report on Indian Gaming:
http://www.pactoregon.org/time-1.html

[Jbb]

I would LOVE to know WTF the indians do with all the money they make at those casinos. If you go ot the casinos they are ALWAYS packed. 1pm, 1am, it doesn't matter.. if you drive down a local road in Whiteriver, or in McNary, or those indian communities it becomes obvious that the people aren't seeing any of the money. Their roads suck, they let their land go to hell. Drive around in the white mountains and see for yourself. I know specifically of a spot where they dump their garbage and you wouldn't believe the crap out there. Old tractors, refrigerators, cars.. everything under the sun out in the forrest. Tell me they don't have the money to dispose of their trash. I know they do. Where does their money go!?!?!?
Firewater?...:p

[Trailer Park Casanova]

Nevada Gaming requires at least a 75% minimum payback on machines.
Indians can set them any % payback they want,, and it shows.
I'm guessing it's usually 5 to 10 % MAX payback from playing experiences.

[Trailer Park Casanova]

All Pechanga Indians get 33k a month before taxes. There's no prerequisite that you work. My friend's wife has never had a job, she and all her sisters get 33k a month, and so will her kids when they turn 18. Somebody told me when they turn 55, they get like 50k a month.
Oh, and if they work, they get a paycheck like everybody else that works there.
The IE Engines we camp with at the river say it's more like $3K per person, per month tax free.
Bluewater/Crit engines get $ 0.

[scooooter7]

yeah, lets see if that money goes where they say it will...
General Fund

[3 daytona`s]

I saw a commercial on Indian Gaming here in AZ and it had me thinking. The commercial was indirectly saying that they had so much money they could buy local communities new police vehciles and such.
My thought... Why should the state let them collect everything they do? Why not go to vote and legalize gambling in certain areas or sections to simply compete for those dollars?
If the indian communities can easily do this and the properties really are not outside of town, what is the difference if the state allowed gambling in other areas within city limits?
it is fine,years ago the government thought they were pulling a fast one over on the Native Americans.They gave them shit land out in the desert and in the middle of nowhere Midwest.The Colorado River front property is priceless and they build Casinos and if you want to support cool,if not go to Vegas.They employee many not natives,buy alchol,food and numerous other products and services which helps the area economy,and lord knows over in your area sure need that.

[bigkyle]

A colleague of mine works in upper management at Morongo. He said each member of the tribe gets a monthly stipend of $30,000 and most of them live off the reservation in Beverly Hills! :jawdrop:

[WetWillie]

San Manual tribe members get close to $100k per month each..
They must not be Pechanga. I've seen her checks, plus I helped them with their taxes. They make $33k and some change per month, per tribe member.
She doesn't work and he makes $12/hour. $3k a month would cover half of one of their mortgages (they have two homes in South Temecula). Their main residence is right down the street from us, they paid $770,000 six months ago.
And, there's no such thing as tax free.

[OSidePat]

Ever notice how stupid normal people get when they walk into a Casino

[Sleeper CP]

A colleague of mine works in upper management at Morongo. He said each member of the tribe gets a monthly stipend of $30,000 and most of them live off the reservation in Beverly Hills! :jawdrop:
:idea: ?
San Manual tribe members get close to $100k per month each..
Now this tribe can live in Beverly Hills, pretty sure you can't do that on $360k year.
I have lived within a 3-5 miles of a casino here in San Diego.. it's late I'll post something about it tomorrow.
Sleeper CP
Big Inch Ford Lover

[Cole Sanger]

Wow, college does pay off sometimes. I just took a horrible english class during the summer. The reason it was horrible was that I had to learn about Arizona Indians. I don't like english classes as it is, and I am not interested in Arizona Indians. Now with that said, my final paper was on Arizona Indian Casinos. I am by no means an expert, just had to do a ton of research on the subject. So, don't shoot the messenger, but most of you are all wrong on the money they make. I have about 20 links showing where their money goes and some random casino junk. Let me show you just two that you might want to take a look at.
For the person that said they don't have good odd's -
http://www.gm.state.az.us/machines.htm
80% slots, 83% poker, 75% keno.
For those who think they don't give back to the surrounding communities -
http://www.gm.state.az.us/contributions.htm
12% to local communities.
Now for me, during the paper I wrote, there were a few things I didn't think about that you might want to consider. Before 1988 there were basically no jobs on the reservations, and no real income to be found. Most Indians didn't travel off the reservation. There were no hospitals or clinics and a whole lot of sick people. Think about it this way, they got screwed out of the USA and now 200+ years later they have an income. Reperations is how I see it now. They have only been able to get these benefits for the past 19 years and they are dumping a ton back into the infastructure of their communities. Building clinics, providing healthcare, building houses, building roads, restraunts, gas stations, giving scholarships to their people, and a crap load of other services they haven't had - ever. Sure the big paychecks to the individual people every month sounds great, but I would say that the checks are that large for two reasons. One, there aren't a lot of Indians left, and two, we are the ones paying those checks. Do you really think that the Indians are playing those games? Not likely. I am not sure what they are doing with the money in Vegas, but I doubt they are building houses for their community or giving out a bunch of scholarships. One last thing, someone might have to check me on this, but how are Nevada casinos contributions figured? I know that the Arizona Indian casinos have to give up 12% of their gross revenue before operating/expense costs. I thought I read somewhere that Nevada gives up the money after all of their operating/expense costs and taxes are taken out of their profits.
A quote I had in my paper -
Before self-governance began to take hold in the 1970s, the Gila River community, like others, was dependent on the Indian Health Service for its members’ health care. Tribal member Pete Jackson, who served on the 1995 team that revamped the way health care is provided to members, remembers the hard realities of those days. “We were losing approximately 135 people a year and we didn’t know the reasons why,” Jackson said. “We didn’t know 95 were diabetes-related.” American Indians have the highest rates of diabetes in the world, and more than 80 percent of Gila River community members get diabetes by age of 55, according to the National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases.
Make your own minds up. I know if I were an Indian, I would be laughing all the way to the bank.

[YeLLowBoaT]

Wow, college does pay off sometimes. I just took a horrible english class during the summer. The reason it was horrible was that I had to learn about Arizona Indians. I don't like english classes as it is, and I am not interested in Arizona Indians. Now with that said, my final paper was on Arizona Indian Casinos. I am by no means an expert, just had to do a ton of research on the subject. So, don't shoot the messenger, but most of you are all wrong on the money they make. I have about 20 links showing where their money goes and some random casino junk. Let me show you just two that you might want to take a look at.
For the person that said they don't have good odd's -
http://www.gm.state.az.us/machines.htm
80% slots, 83% poker, 75% keno.
For those who think they don't give back to the surrounding communities -
http://www.gm.state.az.us/contributions.htm
12% to local communities.
Now for me, during the paper I wrote, there were a few things I didn't think about that you might want to consider. Before 1988 there were basically no jobs on the reservations, and no real income to be found. Most Indians didn't travel off the reservation. There were no hospitals or clinics and a whole lot of sick people. Think about it this way, they got screwed out of the USA and now 200+ years later they have an income. Reperations is how I see it now. They have only been able to get these benefits for the past 19 years and they are dumping a ton back into the infastructure of their communities. Building clinics, providing healthcare, building houses, building roads, restraunts, gas stations, giving scholarships to their people, and a crap load of other services they haven't had - ever. Sure the big paychecks to the individual people every month sounds great, but I would say that the checks are that large for two reasons. One, there aren't a lot of Indians left, and two, we are the ones paying those checks. Do you really think that the Indians are playing those games? Not likely. I am not sure what they are doing with the money in Vegas, but I doubt they are building houses for their community or giving out a bunch of scholarships. One last thing, someone might have to check me on this, but how are Nevada casinos contributions figured? I know that the Arizona Indian casinos have to give up 12% of their gross revenue before operating/expense costs. I thought I read somewhere that Nevada gives up the money after all of their operating/expense costs and taxes are taken out of their profits.
A quote I had in my paper -
Before self-governance began to take hold in the 1970s, the Gila River community, like others, was dependent on the Indian Health Service for its members’ health care. Tribal member Pete Jackson, who served on the 1995 team that revamped the way health care is provided to members, remembers the hard realities of those days. “We were losing approximately 135 people a year and we didn’t know the reasons why,” Jackson said. “We didn’t know 95 were diabetes-related.” American Indians have the highest rates of diabetes in the world, and more than 80 percent of Gila River community members get diabetes by age of 55, according to the National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases.
Make your own minds up. I know if I were an Indian, I would be laughing all the way to the bank.
not all tribes are dumping money back into the tribe. Several are only giving it to select groups. Also all of the local indian casinos are run by the same corps that are in Las vegas. Several people in my family( myself included, all be it I really don't look it) could get apply and get money from indian gaming. We never have and never will. As far as I am concerned the money is tainted and might as well be stolen.
oh yeah several casinos in reno advertise thier pay back is well above 95% on slots.

[KahunaJuice]

Soverign Nation.....
And they shouldn't have to pay TAXES at all to the state!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[YeLLowBoaT]

And they shouldn't have to pay TAXES at all to the state!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
works for me... oh btw you can only have them on your reservations and you must pay for the roads that lead to your reservations...

[westair]

Whats up with these people that go to these casinos are they just bored with life? These places are packed all the time and you can't win shit. These Indians gotta get a big laugh at how stupid they are! You put out a good buffet and they give you all their money.:D

[Boatcop]

Tribes contribute very little, if anything, into Tribal Health Care. It is nearly 100% funded by the Government. The only thing they put in is for any extras.
Here in Parker there is a multi-million dollar Indian Hospital. It was originally designed as strictly an out-patient clinic. CRIT did put in several hundred thousand dollars to add a 10 bed in-patient Hospital. But that's where their $$ input ends. It is operated and staffed by the Public Health Service and Federal employees.
The tribes that have their own facilities have chosen to do so, instead taking the money that would have gone to the Indian Health Service for themselves. Their members usually go to the other IHS facilities, rather than their own tribal clinics.
Some tribal run services, like the dialysis clinic here in Parker, ARE operated by the tribe, but funded 100% by the Federal Govt.
And on top of that, a lot of Indians have Insurance, which is billed for all services. The Indians do not pay any co-pays or deductibles. And if they need care that isn't provided at the local clinics, they are sent to off-Res Doctors or specialists, all paid for by the IHS. (If they live on the Res)
Any member of a Federally recognized tribe (or their descendants, even if they aren't members) are eligible for care through the IHS anywhere in the US, even if they don't live on a Res.
You'd be surprised at the number of Snowbirds of Indian descent that come to the Indian Hospital here in Parker for care and prescriptions.

[Magic34]

So, should the state have certain sections of land where gambling was legal? Kind of like all the casinos in Mississipi have to be over the water in the gulf?
I say yes.
Right now the Indians are the developers. The state could attract some big time deveoplers to do some cool stuff and it is a win win in my book. The state makes more money and maybe my taxes are less. :)

[2Driver]

was last year at back-to-school time. Channel 12 here in Phx did a segment on "donate a backpack to the Indian Children". Same ones that have a casino and there was even a casino commercial during the news cast. My wife and I were like WTF x 2! :rolleyes:

[Magic34]

was last year at back-to-school time. Channel 12 here in Phx did a segment on "donate a backpack to the Indian Children". Same ones that have a casino and there was even a casino commercial during the news cast. My wife and I were like WTF x 2! :rolleyes:
As long as they try to keep the public feeling sorry for them by using the children like that, it will help keep the general public eye off of their revenue by casinos.

[cvonscpa]

Okay, I'm not trying to stir the pot here, but I do have a bit of experience in dealing with Tribally owned casinos. I own an accounting firm that specializes in auditing casinos, primarily Tribally owned. Over the past 10 years, my perspective of Indian gaming has definitely changed.
Contrary to popular belief, not all tribes haved become rich off of gaming. Approximately 20% of the Tribal casinos account for 80% of the revenues. The majority of Tribes that operate casinos only generate enough profits to assist in the funding of day-to-day governmental operations while providing a small stipend ("per capita") distribution to the Tribal members. Whenever the public discusses how much Tribal members are receiving, the names of only a few Tribes are mentioned. I agree that there are a few Tribes that are making an incredible return on their investment and are able to provide very large sums of money to their membership, but they are the exception, not the rule.
I have had the opportunity to work with numerous Tribes and see several different scenarios. I have worked with Tribes who distribute a portion of the income back to the Tribal membership, similar to stockholder dividends based on profits of the business. I have worked with other Tribes who use the profits to provide funding to the operation of the Tribe as a whole, including other Tribal business ventures and meeting the fiscal needs that Federal grants do not meet. I recall working with one tribe in the midwest who used the casino as means to an end. This particular Tribe did not give out any per capita distributions, but did fund valuable services to the entire community (not just the reservation), such as a hospital, community college, police, and fire services, while providing much needed housing to Tribal elders. I have also worked with Tribes that cannot provide basic services to their membership (i.e., clean water, reliable electricity) despite operating casinos. The profits aren't sufficient to even meet the day-to-day costs of operating the Tribal government, much less bring in much needed infrastructure.
One thing to keep in mind when looking at Indian gaming is that you have a group of people who have historically been economically disadvantaged and who now have an opportunity to achieve economic self-reliance through gaming. How many people could have ever even named a single Tribe in California prior to Indian gaming? Prior to Tribal gaming, these Tribes were basically ignored by the public. Now that they have experienced some level of economic success, the public becomes outraged. Everyone else wants "their share" of the pie.
When Cailfornia Tribes first gained the right to operate casinos, one of the points of negotiations between the Tribes and the state of California was the exclusive right for gaming in California. In exchage for this, Tribes offered to pay certain percentages of revenues to state "funds". Tribes are sovereign nations, tribal governments are viewed similar to state governments in the eyes of the federal government. Because one state government cannot tax another government (hey Californians, lets tax the state of Nevada because the majority of gaming revenues in Nevada derive from California!), the Tribes offered to provide certain funding to assist with local infrastructure, both on and off the reservations.
As far as regulations go, people always look to Nevada casinos as the benchmark. Nevada casinos are regulated by the Nevada Gaming Control Board, who visit each casino approximately once every three years. In the interim period, the state relies on annual reports from the gaming operations for determining any risks of impropriety. Tribal operations have several levels of regulations. Each Tribe operates its own Tribal Gaming Regulatory Authority to regulate the gaming operation. The state has its own regulators (in California it is the CGCC), and the the federal regulators (National Indian Gaming Commission). Each Tribal casino is visited by some form of regulatory agency on a much more regular basis than in Nevada (approximately 4-6 times per year versus 1 time every three years). Hold percentages (opposite of payback percentages) are regulated, and in my experience, the differences between hold percentages in Nevada-style casinos and Tribal casinos is negligible.
Okay, I apologize for ranting on here. I'l get off my soapbox now. Come on, guys, this is a boating site, doing this stuff just reminds me of work. I'd much rather be boating ;)

[Ziggy]

Many of the good casino's are Vegas backed anyhow.

[Nord]

Don't Pechanga Indians have to marry Pechanga Indians to keep their monthly checks?

[Cole Sanger]

So, should the state have certain sections of land where gambling was legal? Kind of like all the casinos in Mississipi have to be over the water in the gulf?
I say yes.
Right now the Indians are the developers. The state could attract some big time deveoplers to do some cool stuff and it is a win win in my book. The state makes more money and maybe my taxes are less. :)
I don't want one in my neighborhood. I believe they bring in more traffic and crime than I would want. We already have a state lottery. Why do we need more casinos, especially in neighborhoods?

[Troy McClure]

One thing to keep in mind when looking at Indian gaming is that you have a group of people who have historicallY been economically disadvantaged and who now have an opportunity to achieve economic self-reliance through gaming. How many people could have ever even named a single Tribe in California prior to Indian gaming? Prior to Tribal gaming, these Tribes were basically ignored by the public. Now that they have experienced some level of economic success, the public becomes outraged. Everyone else wants "their share" of the pie.
I'll just reply to this one paragraph (and specific sentence) of yours, BOO, FORKIN HOO. HISTORICALLY DISADVANTAGED. So what. Look at the Irish coming over for the first time, look at blacks, look at every "minority". Somewhere everyone has been "disadvantaged" somehow. Providing ANY group with a Government sponsored monopoly is not good for anyone except those that benefit financially from the deal. Take it away (the monopoly) and the group has learned nothing and usually, as others mentioned, only a few really benefit.
As far as being outraged by their success, you can eliminate some of that resentment by providing an equal playing field...I'd love to start my own casino.

[Havasu1986]

I'll just reply to this one paragraph (and specific sentence) of yours, BOO, FORKIN HOO. HISTORICALLY DISADVANTAGED. So what. Look at the Irish coming over for the first time, look at blacks, look at every "minority". Somewhere everyone has been "disadvantaged" somehow. Providing ANY group with a Government sponsored monopoly is not good for anyone except those that benefit financially from the deal. Take it away (the monopoly) and the group has learned nothing and usually, as others mentioned, only a few really benefit.
As far as being outraged by their success, you can eliminate some of that resentment by providing an equal playing field...I'd love to start my own casino.
So whats your opinion on politics, religion and unions. :eek: :D J/K

[Troy McClure]

So whats your opinion on politics, religion and unions. :eek: :D J/K
Yea, you're right, I am an opinionated ass, but they're GOOD opinions.....:D

[SandbarScot]

Conservative estimates say that the Pechanga Casino, just outside the city of Temecula, CA...After paying all salaries and expenses...NETS $1.5 million per DAY!!!:sqeyes:

[Havasu1986]

Yea, you're right, I am an opinionated ass, but they're GOOD opinions.....:D
Opionated and well educator are two different things. ;) Except for the Union part. :D

[Boatcop]

It's not so much that they are "disadvantaged". It's that they were screwed by the Government every step of the way.
When the Govt wanted the land they held, they forced them into "Treaties" and then broke them. They were moved off one piece of land (That they'd held for a thousand years) and given "title" to another. That is, until there was something the Govt wanted on that land. Then they were moved again. The treaties were entered into by force. It was either do it the Govt's way or be killed off.
Our Govt. had a habit of breaking every treaty they entered into with the various Tribes. Even taking 40 billion* (+ interest) in gas, oil & grazing leases payments, and when they try to claim it, telling them that they spent it, and proposing a settlement of 7 billion dollars in "Programs", rather than paying it to the individual Indians and their descendants, who rightfully have claim to the funds.
This isn't about the Irish, Chinese, or even Negro slaves. It's about a people who have been stolen from, lied to, murdered, and made dependent by our Government for the only "crime" of being in possession of their ancestral lands. And it also isn't ancient history. Even into the 1970s and '80s, Indian children were being taken out of their homes and forced into Indian Schools to try and break them of their culture. They were beaten for speaking their Native language, and isolated from their families.
You are right about one thing. The Government shouldn't support and coddle Native Americans.
They should give just them what is rightfully theirs in the first place.
(*Obtained more accurate figure)

[Troy McClure]

They should give just them what is rightfully theirs in the first place.
Which is what? Where does it stop? Should we give back acquired lands to countries that we (fairly or unfairly) obtained? :idea:

[Troy McClure]

Yes. I think everybody would be happy with that. ;)
I was going to reply but don't really want to get into it. Wasn't there a thread about Blackwater on the US/Mex. border......I'm going over there..

[Boatcop]

http://gravybread.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/crying-indian_fullhead80p.jpg
This would mean something if "Iron Eyes Cody"* was actually Native American.
*Real name: Espera De Corti, the son of Sicillian Immigrants.

[Boatcop]

Wow, he's really convincing as an indian.
So is the Glycerin tear running down his cheek. :D