Something Said Yesterday

[dirty old man]

Someone talked about the smaller boat builders, I think it was Cobra or Lavey but it could be any of the smaller companies, I'm sure they're in for some difficult times. The middle sized builders such as Nordic, Advantage, DCB or Majic should weather it out, and the big guys, well, some of them are even expanding into new and bigger facilities such as Eliminator and Hallett. Some are going through personel changes in management, some are experiencing lay-offs. But the proof how things are should show up at the next boat show, LA is next I think. Those shows are expensive for the builder and it will be interesting to take roll call there

[RitcheyRch]

Anyone know when the LA Boat Show is? I think is normally in Feb.

[Hardly Satisfied]

Anyone know when the LA Boat Show is? I think is normally in Feb.
Feb 9-17 2008

[boatsntoys]

Other than a fun day, I think boat shows are a waste of time to get a true comparison of how a Mfg. builds their boats. "Boat show Boats" are built for "show" This is usually not their every day work. They all have equal footing at the show. A small almost Bk. company, can look just as stable as
one of the "big Boys" under all the lights, carpet,displays etc. Go directly to their shops and then you'll see the real difference. Boat shows are all smoke and mirrors. Jack up the price and give phony "boat show discounts", sold signs on boats to show they are selling, when really the boat belongs to a customer and was sold months ago.
I do think that the show is a great place to see all the designs and new models in one place. But to buy at the show without first seeing the real people in their real enviroment is crazy.
With the boat business the way it is right now......buyer beware!

[Havasu_Dreamin]

Other than a fun day, I think boat shows are a waste of time to get a true comparison of how a Mfg. builds their boats. "Boat show Boats" are built for "show" This is usually not their every day work. They all have equal footing at the show. A small almost Bk. company, can look just as stable as
one of the "big Boys" under all the lights, carpet,displays etc. Go directly to their shops and then you'll see the real difference. Boat shows are all smoke and mirrors. Jack up the price and give phony "boat show discounts", sold signs on boats to show they are selling, when really the boat belongs to a customer and was sold months ago.
I do think that the show is a great place to see all the designs and new models in one place. But to buy at the show without first seeing the real people in their real enviroment is crazy.
With the boat business the way it is right now......buyer beware!
Not every builder does it that way. Some builders bring customers boats for display not boat show specific boats...

[Froggystyle]

I can agree that times are tight, but for some companies it is a great time to take market share.
The LA show is a great example... we may go this year finally!
It appears some spaces have been vacated and need to be filled...

[boatsntoys]

Not every builder does it that way. Some builders bring customers boats for display not boat show specific boats...
Don't these Mfgs. have enough money or credit to bring new boats that are actually for sale ? I understand that they are not allowed to put used boats in the show. Unless it's a famouse boat that has special history behind it and was built for a specific purpose. But putting in a used, stock 21' with a 350 seems pretty cheesy.

[Havasu_Dreamin]

Don't these Mfgs. have enough money or credit to bring new boats that are actually for sale ? I understand that they are not allowed to put used boats in the show. Unless it's a famouse boat that has special history behind it and was built for a specific purpose. But putting in a used, stock 21' with a 350 seems pretty cheesy.
True, but the builder I was referencing took customer specific boats that were new not used but they were not built solely for the boat show...

[Froggystyle]

Don't these Mfgs. have enough money or credit to bring new boats that are actually for sale ? I understand that they are not allowed to put used boats in the show. Unless it's a famouse boat that has special history behind it and was built for a specific purpose. But putting in a used, stock 21' with a 350 seems pretty cheesy.
I'm trying to bring three boats. That would be over $300K in parts alone.
I don't have $300K.
If we show, I will be bringing three boats that have been sold and are in all actuality, the last three boats I built before the show happens. I sold them at aggressive prices to people willing to take delivery after the show.
So no... I don't have enough money or credit to bring new boats that are actually for sale. Plus, everyone has different tastes, and it is difficult to roll someone in to someone elses dream boat.

[uLtRADeNniS]

Other than a fun day, I think boat shows are a waste of time to get a true comparison of how a Mfg. builds their boats. "Boat show Boats" are built for "show" This is usually not their every day work. They all have equal footing at the show. A small almost Bk. company, can look just as stable as
one of the "big Boys" under all the lights, carpet,displays etc. Go directly to their shops and then you'll see the real difference. Boat shows are all smoke and mirrors. Jack up the price and give phony "boat show discounts", sold signs on boats to show they are selling, when really the boat belongs to a customer and was sold months ago.
I do think that the show is a great place to see all the designs and new models in one place. But to buy at the show without first seeing the real people in their real enviroment is crazy.
With the boat business the way it is right now......buyer beware!
I agree... I have a good buddy that bought one of the first 28 Placecraft Deckboats. They took almost a year to build the boat. I guess they blew all his money..he paid cash. So they needed to wait till they sold more boats to finish his. He has to take the boat back to them this winter because of all the issues he's had. He said he'll pick it back up when its right.

[Jbb]

It all depends on what floor you are on....:D

[boatsntoys]

True, but the builder I was referencing took customer specific boats that were new not used but they were not built solely for the boat show...
With all the money that is spent on these shows ( I hear 20 to 50,000 is average) Wouldn't it make sense to bring things you can sell and make some money on? Many people do not like to special order, I don't.
Many other shows are for display. The LA boat show is definatley a SALES show.
I think they are using the customers money for display boats because many of them do not have the money for display inventory. If the Mfg. can not even build a boat for himself, how is he going to build one for me, unless I pay upfront, which I would never do, especially in these times.
I think THIS LA show is the last shot and it's do or die for many custom boat Mfgs. Boat sales follow the housing market and we all know where that is.

[franky]

Plus, everyone has different tastes, and it is difficult to roll someone in to someone elses dream boat.
I agree, and have always wondered how Magic keeps their lot full of bare hulls? They just keep pooping out bare hulls, hoping someone likes the color scheme, which they must cause there sure are a lot of them (looking the same) out there. "Go out to the lot, pic a color and you can have it in 4 weeks". Custom.:D

[Magic34]

Don't these Mfgs. have enough money or credit to bring new boats that are actually for sale ? I understand that they are not allowed to put used boats in the show. Unless it's a famouse boat that has special history behind it and was built for a specific purpose. But putting in a used, stock 21' with a 350 seems pretty cheesy.
Magic doesn't do it the way you suggested and I am sure there are others. The dont make a specific boat show boat, just grab one out of inventory and take it to the show.
It cracks me up when people run an ad to sell their boat and make mention of it being the boat show boat. There is 1 in Phoenix right now doing just that and the boat really is no different than any other stock unit but they think they can ask more money or attract more buyers that way.

[Magic34]

I agree... I have a good buddy that bought one of the first 28 Placecraft Deckboats. They took almost a year to build the boat. I guess they blew all his money..he paid cash. So they needed to wait till they sold more boats to finish his. He has to take the boat back to them this winter because of all the issues he's had. He said he'll pick it back up when its right.
He prepaid for the boat to be built?

[Jbb]

Everybody come to the Miami Boat Show...I will have a JBB Meet & Greet there....:D

[Magic34]

I agree, and have always wondered how Magic keeps their lot full of bare hulls? They just keep pooping out bare hulls, hoping someone likes the color scheme, which they must cause there sure are a lot of them (looking the same) out there. "Go out to the lot, pic a color and you can have it in 4 weeks". Custom.:D
Been to Havasu lately? The business model is working. :D :D

[uLtRADeNniS]

He prepaid for the boat to be built?
No If my memory serves me he paid them a big deposit then paid for the rest at delivery. I don't remember how much he put down.

[franky]

Been to Havasu lately? The business model is working. :D :D
No doubt, just don't get it. And yes, I live here.
BTW, do those big silver "Magic" stickers just peal off or are they in the gel?

[Magic34]

Many people do not like to special order, I don't.
Many other shows are for display. The LA boat show is definatley a SALES show.
I agree however in the custom boat market it is not the case, I want a boat for me if I am buying new with the colors of my choice. I think many performance boaters are the same, yet there are still many who want it right now. So, I am 50/50 on that one. If the builder can get it done in 8 weeks, I'd build at the boat show price. :D

[Throttle]

Someone talked about the smaller boat builders, I think it was Cobra or Lavey but it could be any of the smaller companies, I'm sure they're in for some difficult times. The middle sized builders such as Nordic, Advantage, DCB or Majic should weather it out, and the big guys, well, some of them are even expanding into new and bigger facilities such as Eliminator and Hallett. Some are going through personel changes in management, some are experiencing lay-offs. But the proof how things are should show up at the next boat show, LA is next I think. Those shows are expensive for the builder and it will be interesting to take roll call there
There was a thread yesterday and I was told last nite it was deleted. I do not know the real reason.
We all have our .02 on things, however I wonder how or why you classify Cobra and Lavey as smaller boat builders. Both of these companies are solid and have set trends in the industry. Not to mention the work in progress for both. And Nordic, Advantage, DCB and Magic are middle of the road builders? WOW! Oh and bigger builders like Hallet and Eliminator, you gotta be kidding me.
I will put a dime up for any builder right now who says his company is happy building the amount of boats that are being built right now. Aint gonna happen!
As for taking roll call at the LA Boat Show, sure it makes a statement, but why should builders pay big bucks when all they do is show boats... Not very many boats were purchased (compared to previous year that is) it is not cost effective. However as the industry has been suffering for months on end with lots more still to be seen.
My opinion would be that these builders should be getting together and letting SCMA know that they are all in a pinch and want some discounted floor space or they don't come at all! I am thinkin that there is NOT a builder out there that wants to pay the prices for the show and not sell any boats to make it worth thier time and money.

[boatsntoys]

I'm trying to bring three boats. That would be over $300K in parts alone.
I don't have $300K.
If we show, I will be bringing three boats that have been sold and are in all actuality, the last three boats I built before the show happens. I sold them at aggressive prices to people willing to take delivery after the show.
So no... I don't have enough money or credit to bring new boats that are actually for sale. Plus, everyone has different tastes, and it is difficult to roll someone in to someone elses dream boat.
Hey froggy, no disrespect intended, but if you sell 5 or 6 of your 175,000 boats at the show and take 5 or 10,000 deposits. With no cash or credit, how you gonna build them?
Use all the deposits and credit from your customes to build one, roll it, then start the next one and so on?
Seems like quite a juggle, not to mention the time till # 6 gets delivered.

[Magic34]

BTW, do those big silver "Magic" stickers just peal off or are they in the gel?
Seriously? Stickers.

[Froggystyle]

With all the money that is spent on these shows ( I hear 20 to 50,000 is average) Wouldn't it make sense to bring things you can sell and make some money on?
Sure, but as I stated... I don't have the money to do a good show and bring a bunch of boats to sell. I plan on selling boats at the show, but I plan on selling boats that will be custom built in every aspect for the client...
Many people do not like to special order, I don't.
That is why the used market is so strong. If you don't need to special order... you would be insane not to buy a two year old boat selling in a distress sale right now. The boat show is for people to make their comparisons between manufacturers and get a boat custom built for them in the next several months.
Many other shows are for display. The LA boat show is definatley a SALES show.
I think they are using the customers money for display boats because many of them do not have the money for display inventory.
Exactly. Already been covered...
If the Mfg. can not even build a boat for himself, how is he going to build one for me, unless I pay upfront, which I would never do, especially in these times.
I can't speak for any other manufacturers, but I personally have a business line of credit I can activate every time I put a boat in contract. Someone specs out a boat, I get a loan to build the boat with. When the boat delivers and I am paid in full, the loan gets repaid and I repeat until I am wildly wealthy beyond my furthest expectations.
I think THIS LA show is the last shot and it's do or die for many custom boat Mfgs. Boat sales follow the housing market and we all know where that is.
Doubtful that it is the "last shot". Most companies are owned by enthusiasts, and when they go up for sale, inevitably another enthusiast decides that now is the time for them to buy a company doing something they love. Many of the companies around today have gone through multiple owners, and most were purchased during mean times, not boom times with the intention of waiting out the market and bringing in economic sense and a line of capital. This will be no different.

[Magic34]

Hey froggy, no disrespect intended, but if you sell 5 or 6 of your 175,000 boats at the show and take 5 or 10,000 deposits. With no cash or credit, how you gonna build them?
Use all the deposits and credit from your customes to build one, roll it, then start the next one and so on?
Seems like quite a juggle, not to mention the time till # 6 gets delivered.
That is a big if and not very realistic in todays market. Wes and Trident do have an amazing product and I wish for nothing more than those sales to happen, but they are not likely in the current market situation.

[franky]

Seriously? Stickers.
I'm asking. So are you saying they are in the gel? If so, do you have a choice as to having the big silver name or not?

[Jbb]

I can't speak for any other manufacturers, but I personally have a business line of credit I can activate every time I put a boat in contract. Someone specs out a boat, I get a loan to build the boat with. When the boat delivers and I am paid in full, the loan gets repaid and I repeat until I am wildly wealthy beyond my furthest expectations.
..................All the chicken chips....cigarettes....cheap beer....and mild pepperoni your heart desires...:D

[Froggystyle]

That is a big if and not very realistic in todays market. Wes and Trident do have an amazing product and I wish for nothing more than those sales to happen, but they are not likely in the current market situation.
Four on the books today. In the history of Trident, we have never had the phone ring so much or had so much action. We smooshed both of the magazine evaluations we have done, and the word is getting out there.
Right now the big thing that would take me over the top is to be able to off some of these trade-in boats. Seems like everyone has a really nice new model to trade for a Trident, and I can't move them for the life of me.
I loosely thought about displaying at the boat show and bringing nothing but the trade-ins for sale! Most look like boat show boats, at half the price. I move them... I sell a Trident.
Speaking of which... if anyone wants a good look at what people are upgrading from to buy a Trident... take a look here...
Trident Trade In's (http://www.tridentboats.com/trident_boats_gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=24)

[Magic34]

I'm asking. So are you saying they are in the gel? If so, do you have a choice as to having the big silver name or not?
Sorry. No, they are chrome raised vinyl sticker. You could easily remove them if you please.
I dont know if they would deliver one without the stickers. I am all about having it your way, but if I owned the comapny, I want the company name on everything and the customer could remove the logo or name after delivery if they wish.

[Magic34]

Four on the books today. In the history of Trident, we have never had the phone ring so much or had so much action. We smooshed both of the magazine evaluations we have done, and the word is getting out there.
Right now the big thing that would take me over the top is to be able to off some of these trade-in boats. Seems like everyone has a really nice new model to trade for a Trident, and I can't move them for the life of me.
I loosely thought about displaying at the boat show and bringing nothing but the trade-ins for sale! Most look like boat show boats, at half the price. I move them... I sell a Trident.
Speaking of which... if anyone wants a good look at what people are getting out of to buy a Trident... take a look here...
Trident Trade In's (http://www.tridentboats.com/trident_boats_gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=24)
That is great Wes, congrats. I was making mention to the likelyhood of selling 5-6 at the show. I would love to see that happen for you brother!

[Froggystyle]

Sorry. No, they are chrome raised vinyl sticker. You could easily remove them if you please.
I dont know if they would deliver one without the stickers. I am all about having it your way, but if I owned the comapny, I want the company name on everything and the customer could remove the logo or name after delivery if they wish.
Funny, I don't put the name on unless someone asks for it.

[franky]

Sorry. No, they are chrome raised vinyl sticker. You could easily remove them if you please.
I dont know if they would deliver one without the stickers. I am all about having it your way, but if I owned the comapny, I want the company name on everything and the customer could remove the logo or name after delivery if they wish.
So....if they are just stickers, why do you see so many of them??? Peel em off, makes the boat look much cleaner. I think those big silver stickers are gawdy as hell. Takes away from the lines.
If they want to keep the name on (my) boat they can pay for advertising.

[Froggystyle]

That is great Wes, congrats. I was making mention to the likelyhood of selling 5-6 at the show. I would love to see that happen for you brother!
Thanks Mike. Reality is, I bet I heard at least that many times this year at the river that if they had seen our boat at the show, they would have bought one instead of whatever they bought.
Our boat shows well. I would expect to do at least five boats at the show.

[Magic34]

So....if they are just stickers, why do you see so many of them??? Peel em off, makes the boat look much cleaner. I think those big silver stickers are gawdy as hell. Takes away from the lines.
Same reason they put the mfg of their boat on their truck window. Pride of ownership.
Magic as well as other boat mfgs have created a culture that their cusomters want to be part of. That culture is what helps gain market recognition and reorders from customers.

[boatsntoys]

There was a thread yesterday and I was told last nite it was deleted. I do not know the real reason.
We all have our .02 on things, however I wonder how or why you classify Cobra and Lavey as smaller boat builders. Both of these companies are solid and have set trends in the industry. Not to mention the work in progress for both. And Nordic, Advantage, DCB and Magic are middle of the road builders? WOW! Oh and bigger builders like Hallet and Eliminator, you gotta be kidding me.
I will put a dime up for any builder right now who says his company is happy building the amount of boats that are being built right now. Aint gonna happen!
As for taking roll call at the LA Boat Show, sure it makes a statement, but why should builders pay big bucks when all they do is show boats... Not very many boats were purchased (compared to previous year that is) it is not cost effective. However as the industry has been suffering for months on end with lots more still to be seen.
My opinion would be that these builders should be getting together and letting SCMA know that they are all in a pinch and want some discounted floor space or they don't come at all! I am thinkin that there is NOT a builder out there that wants to pay the prices for the show and not sell any boats to make it worth thier time and money.
I agree. I would have more respect for a builder that puts more inventory on his floor., than one who blows $50,000 on a boat show that is gone in 7 days. Just to feed his ego and keep up phony appearances
It's a tough market. THe ones who cut back and and face reality are the ones who will make it. The ones spending their last cash and think they will make it through " with wishfull thinking" are doomed

[Racey]

I can agree that times are tight, but for some companies it is a great time to take market share.
The LA show is a great example... we may go this year finally!
It appears some spaces have been vacated and need to be filled...
I'd love to see the trident in person at the show! i'm sure i'm not the only one!!

[Magic34]

Thanks Mike. Reality is, I bet I heard at least that many times this year at the river that if they had seen our boat at the show, they would have bought one instead of whatever they bought.
Our boat shows well. I would expect to do at least five boats at the show.
Then I wish I could have been an investor. :) ;) If you sell 3+ at the show, it will be a wake up call to the industry and Trident is here to stay, solid.

[Magic34]

I'd love to see the trident in person at the show! i'm sure i'm not the only one!!
The boats are sick!!!!

[Throttle]

Other than a fun day, I think boat shows are a waste of time to get a true comparison of how a Mfg. builds their boats. "Boat show Boats" are built for "show" This is usually not their every day work. They all have equal footing at the show. A small almost Bk. company, can look just as stable as
one of the "big Boys" under all the lights, carpet,displays etc. Go directly to their shops and then you'll see the real difference. Boat shows are all smoke and mirrors. Jack up the price and give phony "boat show discounts", sold signs on boats to show they are selling, when really the boat belongs to a customer and was sold months ago.
I do think that the show is a great place to see all the designs and new models in one place. But to buy at the show without first seeing the real people in their real enviroment is crazy.
With the boat business the way it is right now......buyer beware!
I recently recall you coming on here looking for advice cuz you were new, I guess we helped you find a way...
Sure there are boats built for the shows just to show off. But isnt that what also brings peeps to the shows to see the newest trends and designs, blah blah, bling bling. I enjoy boating and seeing everyone's work and craftmanship. There is lots to be told with this, some do things well and others don't do so well.
I disagree with you when you say boats that are at the show are not their every day work. You used the word "usually", you may be right but in most cases that I have seen it is usually dead on.

[uLtRADeNniS]

I agree. I would have more respect for a builder that puts more inventory on his floor., than one who blows $50,000 on a boat show that is gone in 7 days. Just to feed his ego and keep up phony appearances
It's a tough market. THe ones who cut back and and face reality are the ones who will make it. The ones spending their last cash and think they will make it through " with wishfull thinking" are doomed
Uhh I disagree.
Look at Eliminators booth every year! Did you see the Daytona Coupe flipped on its side? Look how much cash they spend, and they have been around since 1969. I really don't agree with you saying that the ones that spend big money will fall behind. Have you heard the rule that you must spend money to make money? You have to put yourself out there(advertise).
All the "bigger" companies as you call them, offer many different models. Therefore they must have the room to show all of them their customers. People go to the boat shows to see boats.. Not to hear "oh well um we have one coming out of the mold next week, so your welcome to stop by the shop."
As far as you saying that they are blowing $50k in 7 days is outrageous... Its called a business expense.

[Kilrtoy]

Other than a fun day, I think boat shows are a waste of time to get a true comparison of how a Mfg. builds their boats. "Boat show Boats" are built for "show" This is usually not their every day work. They all have equal footing at the show. A small almost Bk. company, can look just as stable as
one of the "big Boys" under all the lights, carpet,displays etc. Go directly to their shops and then you'll see the real difference. Boat shows are all smoke and mirrors. Jack up the price and give phony "boat show discounts", sold signs on boats to show they are selling, when really the boat belongs to a customer and was sold months ago.
I do think that the show is a great place to see all the designs and new models in one place. But to buy at the show without first seeing the real people in their real enviroment is crazy.
With the boat business the way it is right now......buyer beware!
Predictions on who is folding please!!!!!!!!
Just I can get some good half built deals when they do

[Havasu_Dreamin]

With all the money that is spent on these shows ( I hear 20 to 50,000 is average) Wouldn't it make sense to bring things you can sell and make some money on? Many people do not like to special order, I don't.
Many other shows are for display. The LA boat show is definatley a SALES show.
I think they are using the customers money for display boats because many of them do not have the money for display inventory. If the Mfg. can not even build a boat for himself, how is he going to build one for me, unless I pay upfront, which I would never do, especially in these times.
I think THIS LA show is the last shot and it's do or die for many custom boat Mfgs. Boat sales follow the housing market and we all know where that is.
I think most buyers in the custom world want special order. They want to pick graphics and colors. Howard, the builder I was referencing, took 6 boats to the LA show last year, 3 were built for customers as they ordered them, again not built solely for the show, and 3 were built by Howard less power For Sale at the show. All three of the boats sold BTW...

[boatsntoys]

I recently recall you coming on here looking for advice cuz you were new, I guess we helped you find a way...
Sure there are boats built for the shows just to show off. But isnt that what also brings peeps to the shows to see the newest trends and designs, blah blah, bling bling. I enjoy boating and seeing everyone's work and craftmanship. There is lots to be told with this, some do things well and others don't do so well.
I disagree with you when you say boats that are at the show are not their every day work. You used the word "usually", you may be right but in most cases that I have seen it is usually dead on.
In the last months I have been to almost every boat shop. Heard every story from all the salesmen, owners, employees as to why I should buy now and NOT wait for the show. I have read all the posts here and been educated. I still have a lot to learn but there is a common underlieing thread in what everyone remarks, Customers and builders alike. THE BOAT BUSINESS SUCKS RIGHT NOW. Go to some of the shops, they are like a morgue.
I know what dead business is like, my job relies on construction and boy! is it dead.
I don't want to be the last one to buy from XYZ company and get stuck with my d--k in my hand. I want a boat but I'm scared. Afraid to buy the dicounted boat in stock, because the discount is so large it's sending me a signal. Don't want the special order high dollar, because I might get stuck and take an enormouse loss.
Just here throwing s--t on the wall and see what sticks :-) Everyones reaction is an education in itself.

[soupersonic]

Speaking of which... if anyone wants a good look at what people are upgrading from to buy a Trident... take a look here...
Trident Trade In's (http://www.tridentboats.com/trident_boats_gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=24)
You have that 31 SONIC ? Fock thats a sweet ride. I wanted that boat.Couldnt get mine sold in time. Merc 575's should put it in the low 90's and i know a guy who does upholstery ;) to get rid of that yellow crap cockpit

[Havasu_Dreamin]

Don't want the special order high dollar, because I might get stuck and take an enormouse loss.
Then don't even think of buying new because you will take a loss regardless of what builder you buy from...

[Froggystyle]

In the last months I have been to almost every boat shop. Heard every story from all the salesmen, owners, employees as to why I should buy now and NOT wait for the show. I have read all the posts here and been educated. I still have a lot to learn but there is a common underlieing thread in what everyone remarks, Customers and builders alike. THE BOAT BUSINESS SUCKS RIGHT NOW. Go to some of the shops, they are like a morgue.
I know what dead business is like, my job relies on construction and boy! is it dead.
I don't want to be the last one to buy from XYZ company and get stuck with my d--k in my hand. I want a boat but I'm scared. Afraid to buy the dicounted boat in stock, because the discount is so large it's sending me a signal. Don't want the special order high dollar, because I might get stuck and take an enormouse loss.
Just here throwing s--t on the wall and see what sticks :-) Everyones reaction is an education in itself.
This doesn't make any sense to me...
First, the guys are right... don't wait for the show. The deals are to be had now, not at the beginning of the season when we rack up orders. I will promise you that come the boat show, if things keep up like they are going right now I will be showing there with the intention of getting top dollar on the boats we put in production.
As far as being the last to buy... well, I think you should be able to tell pretty readily if they are truly circling the drain, and if you get tens of thousands of dollars off the price of a new boat as a result, it should more than offset any potential loss you may take by the company being out of business when you go to re-sell it.
As far as buying a high dollar and taking a loss... how? Most companies only take a 10% deposit, and you would own the hull as soon as it was popped. If the company would go under, you would keep your boat hull and I promise... it is worth far more than the 10% you have down. You would certainly get that in a settlement.

[Froggystyle]

You have that 31 SONIC ? Fock thats a sweet ride. I wanted that boat.Couldnt get mine sold in time. Merc 575's should put it in the low 90's and i know a guy who does upholstery ;) to get rid of that yellow crap cockpit
One Sonic sold... one Trident started! :D
It is a beautiful boat, and there are a million pics of it up on our site. The interior isn't that bad, and at that price, you could learn to live with it I am sure. From what I gather, he babies the engines, and has brand new drives on it.

[uLtRADeNniS]

In the last months I have been to almost every boat shop. Heard every story from all the salesmen, owners, employees as to why I should buy now and NOT wait for the show. I have read all the posts here and been educated. I still have a lot to learn but there is a common underlieing thread in what everyone remarks, Customers and builders alike. THE BOAT BUSINESS SUCKS RIGHT NOW. Go to some of the shops, they are like a morgue.
I know what dead business is like, my job relies on construction and boy! is it dead.
I don't want to be the last one to buy from XYZ company and get stuck with my d--k in my hand. I want a boat but I'm scared. Afraid to buy the dicounted boat in stock, because the discount is so large it's sending me a signal. Don't want the special order high dollar, because I might get stuck and take an enormouse loss.
Just here throwing s--t on the wall and see what sticks :-) Everyones reaction is an education in itself.
Dude you just need to buy a boat. I think your looking way too far into this. Find what you want, test drive a few boats. And look for a well know builder that is still selling boats. If you just buy used - this is easier.. find the boat you like transfer the funds or sign the loan docs and its in your driveway in a matter of days.
There are so many good boats out there that are well taken care of. Just people didn't want it or couldn't afford it. Just look around and DO YOUR RESEARCH. Call the mfg, ask them questions about the particular boat. Call the engine builder or find out whos been servicing it. It took me months to narrow down my search and buy something. And my boat is perfect. No complaints! I had one trailer issue(no biggie)..Of course I had to do a few things that made it better for ME. But thats it.

[Froggystyle]

If you just buy used - this is easier.. find the boat you like transfer the funds or sign the loan docs and its in your driveway in a matter of days.
And if you buy used, take a look at the ones we have for sale... :D
We have great financing in place, and can take care of delivery for you.

[Magic34]

And if you buy used, take a look at the ones we have for sale... :D
We have great financing in place, and can take care of delivery for you.
Wh0re :D :D

[uLtRADeNniS]

And if you buy used, take a look at the ones we have for sale... :D
We have great financing in place, and can take care of delivery for you.
Yeah... I like the Ultra with this!
Where can I get that? That would be cool for a Rhino!
http://www.tridentboats.com/trident_boats_gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=3283&g2_serialNumber=2

[boatsntoys]

Dude you just need to buy a boat. I think your looking way too far into this. Find what you want, test drive a few boats. And look for a well know builder that is still selling boats. If you just buy used - this is easier.. find the boat you like transfer the funds or sign the loan docs and its in your driveway in a matter of days.
There are so many good boats out there that are well taken care of. Just people didn't want it or couldn't afford it. Just look around and DO YOUR RESEARCH. Call the mfg, ask them questions about the particular boat. Call the engine builder or find out whos been servicing it. It took me months to narrow down my search and buy something. And my boat is perfect. No complaints! I had one trailer issue(no biggie)..Of course I had to do a few things that made it better for ME. But thats it.
You're right. Just need to pull the trigger. Just got all involved in the boat show thing lately I was told by one Mfg. that if I signed loan docs. now, they would build me a "boat show" boat. They would include lots of extras, give a HUGH discount and make my payments for a year because I was a good guy and helping them out. Kind of scary. They did not want to do the same thing on one of the stock boats??? of which there were only 2 but not close to complete.
When something is too good to be true.....................it usually isn't.

[Ion]

I'm asking. So are you saying they are in the gel? If so, do you have a choice as to having the big silver name or not?
They ARE stickers. Oops...never mind...already covered.

[boatsntoys]

Sure, but as I stated... I don't have the money to do a good show and bring a bunch of boats to sell. I plan on selling boats at the show, but I plan on selling boats that will be custom built in every aspect for the client...
That is why the used market is so strong. If you don't need to special order... you would be insane not to buy a two year old boat selling in a distress sale right now. The boat show is for people to make their comparisons between manufacturers and get a boat custom built for them in the next several months.
Exactly. Already been covered...
I can't speak for any other manufacturers, but I personally have a business line of credit I can activate every time I put a boat in contract. Someone specs out a boat, I get a loan to build the boat with. When the boat delivers and I am paid in full, the loan gets repaid and I repeat until I am wildly wealthy beyond my furthest expectations.
Doubtful that it is the "last shot". Most companies are owned by enthusiasts, and when they go up for sale, inevitably another enthusiast decides that now is the time for them to buy a company doing something they love. Many of the companies around today have gone through multiple owners, and most were purchased during mean times, not boom times with the intention of waiting out the market and bringing in economic sense and a line of capital. This will be no different.
My apologies Froggy. In your previous post you stated you had no CASH or CREDIT. Thats what made me wonder how you would build the special order boats

[C-2]

What’s the buzz on boat financing given the current credit crunch?
Geesh, I remember buying my Hallett new in 95’ – and we had to provide 3 years tax returns and bank statements, and that was with 15% down, homeowner and flawless credit.
Any ideas?

[Froggystyle]

My apologies Froggy. In your previous post you stated you had no CASH or CREDIT. Thats what made me wonder how you would build the special order boats
Well, it isn't a normal line of credit, and it isn't extended by the vendors who are as slow as we are. There are no "construction" loans currently in the custom boat business. In my case, it is a secured loan, secured by the signed contract that indicates a repayment date, my credit, the boat in production and is a pretty heavy interest loan. Works great for all parties. If someone wants to self-finance and pay in installments, I give them the interest I would pay as a discount off the price.

[Froggystyle]

What’s the buzz on boat financing given the current credit crunch?
Geesh, I remember buying my Hallett new in 95’ – and we had to provide 3 years tax returns and bank statements, and that was with 15% down, homeowner and flawless credit.
Any ideas?
If you have a score of greater than 700 it is still really easy.

[boatsntoys]

What’s the buzz on boat financing given the current credit crunch?
Geesh, I remember buying my Hallett new in 95’ – and we had to provide 3 years tax returns and bank statements, and that was with 15% down, homeowner and flawless credit.
Any ideas?
Doesn't seem to be too hard. With my 726, I could get 86,000 with no down, stated income and the boat is not even built.

[dirty old man]

maybe I guessed incorrectly on who's small, middle and larger boat builders on the west coast/custom boats. I think some of them will be gone before long, some will really struggle to hang on thru '08. I was around in early '80's when a lot of other builders went away due to economics and high gas prices (Spectra being one of them) Like the weather, we're going thru a change

[Froggystyle]

I think some of them will be gone before long, some will really struggle to hang on thru '08. I was around in early '80's when a lot of other builders went away due to economics and high gas prices (Spectra being one of them) Like the weather, we're going thru a change
This is accurate, intuitive and hits the nail square on the head.

[squirt'nmyload]

don't forget about kachina :D drove by there today and they were still building boats :D

[franky]

Just drove by Magic's yard. Must be 50-60 bare hulls there easy.

[havaduner]

maybe I guessed incorrectly on who's small, middle and larger boat builders on the west coast/custom boats. I think some of them will be gone before long, some will really struggle to hang on thru '08. I was around in early '80's when a lot of other builders went away due to economics and high gas prices (Spectra being one of them) Like the weather, we're going thru a change
Hey Old Man, I was the one yesterday that made the statement about smaller boats. Maybe I spoke out of school, or my statment didnt make sense, (cant go back cuz that thread was deleted:mad: ) But my statement was made that in seeing what is coming out of several builders lately, maybe there is a trend towards smaller boats again. That coming mostly from the fact that, Eliminator has recently popped a couple "old school" 21 Daytonas from the mold and their new 22 Daytona has seemed to make a real splash. Froggy has it right, most of the builders are owned by enthusiats, some of who have been through lean times before. The difference is now, if they scale back operations, or perhaps unload some old inventory ( used boats, molds no longer in production) threads get started here saying they are going BK. Kind of ironic isnt it, that what some would call good business sense, is seen as the end of the world by some of us experts!:rolleyes:

[Redwing247]

We all have our .02 on things, however I wonder how or why you classify Cobra and Lavey as smaller boat builders. Both of these companies are solid and have set trends in the industry. Not to mention the work in progress for both. And Nordic, Advantage, DCB and Magic are middle of the road builders? WOW! Oh and bigger builders like Hallet and Eliminator, you gotta be kidding me.
I will put a dime up for any builder right now who says his company is happy building the amount of boats that are being built right now. Aint gonna happen!
As for taking roll call at the LA Boat Show, sure it makes a statement, but why should builders pay big bucks when all they do is show boats... Not very many boats were purchased (compared to previous year that is) it is not cost effective. However as the industry has been suffering for months on end with lots more still to be seen.
My opinion would be that these builders should be getting together and letting SCMA know that they are all in a pinch and want some discounted floor space or they don't come at all! I am thinkin that there is NOT a builder out there that wants to pay the prices for the show and not sell any boats to make it worth thier time and money.
I know somebody at Cobra booth always have a cooler full of Coors Light :D :D :D

[burtandnancy2]

Not sure why that thread started yesterday was deleted, other than it was maybe slanderous, possibly untrue, but not unlike things said here daily. There is some real scummy trash on here now that I would delete if I could...

[Throttle]

Not sure why that thread started yesterday was deleted, other than it was maybe slanderous, possibly untrue, but not unlike things said here daily. There is some real scummy trash on here now that I would delete if I could...
I was only told that it was deleted, didnt really get the reason and I didnt really have time to ask. I was not happy about it either.

[Throttle]

I know somebody at Cobra booth always have a cooler full of Coors Light :D :D :D
just think about what happens to us if we do not stay hydrated...

[Throttle]

Just drove by Magic's yard. Must be 50-60 bare hulls there easy.
I think the idea there is for the customer to pick a boat that they like, then they will rig to order... and deliver in a much shorter time than other builders. Bottom line is it saves the wait period getting into and out of the mold, on the down side - the customer settles for what is available at the time or they wait extended weeks for delivery. It does not seem like a bad biz idea if you can make it work and apparently they do.
did you guys know there was a magic regatta this weekend, I saw two or three of them in town today. Actually they were the only boats I saw driving through town today. Well there was an Advantage too.

[Throttle]

I agree. I would have more respect for a builder that puts more inventory on his floor., than one who blows $50,000 on a boat show that is gone in 7 days. Just to feed his ego and keep up phony appearances
It's a tough market. THe ones who cut back and and face reality are the ones who will make it. The ones spending their last cash and think they will make it through " with wishfull thinking" are doomed
my opinion again may be different,
A showroom is great with a few models to show customers options and different models. It is also great to see the quality and craftmanship prior to a customer placing an order. Having to much inventory to me means that the right buyer has to walk in the door and love it before they will buy it.
Most of us agree I think that there is alot of truth to the fact that a customer wants to pick colors and options for his own boat. Afterall he is paying the same price weather its off the showroom floor or if he orders it. Might as well get it the way he wants it. Most boats sold off a showroom floor I think are probably peeps that do not want to wait for a boat to be built.

[That Guy]

I know somebody at Cobra booth always have a cooler full of Coors Light :D :D :D
I usually miss 1/2 the show because of this......:D :idea: :D

[Throttle]

In the last months I have been to almost every boat shop. Heard every story from all the salesmen, owners, employees as to why I should buy now and NOT wait for the show. I have read all the posts here and been educated. I still have a lot to learn but there is a common underlieing thread in what everyone remarks, Customers and builders alike. THE BOAT BUSINESS SUCKS RIGHT NOW. Go to some of the shops, they are like a morgue.
I know what dead business is like, my job relies on construction and boy! is it dead.
I don't want to be the last one to buy from XYZ company and get stuck with my d--k in my hand. I want a boat but I'm scared. Afraid to buy the dicounted boat in stock, because the discount is so large it's sending me a signal. Don't want the special order high dollar, because I might get stuck and take an enormouse loss.
Just here throwing s--t on the wall and see what sticks :-) Everyones reaction is an education in itself.
There is nothing wrong with buying a boat that is in stock if its what you wanted. And why would anyone bitch about a large discount, its every buyers dream! As a metter of fact its what everyone bitches about the most cuz they cant get a discounted price. as for an enormous loss, I am unsure about that... you are buying a boat that has sold itself on you, its going to bring you great days on the water. any loss gets put down as part of boating...

[Throttle]

In the last months I have been to almost every boat shop. Heard every story from all the salesmen, owners, employees as to why I should buy now and NOT wait for the show. I have read all the posts here and been educated. I still have a lot to learn but there is a common underlieing thread in what everyone remarks, Customers and builders alike. THE BOAT BUSINESS SUCKS RIGHT NOW. Go to some of the shops, they are like a morgue.
I know what dead business is like, my job relies on construction and boy! is it dead.
I don't want to be the last one to buy from XYZ company and get stuck with my d--k in my hand. I want a boat but I'm scared. Afraid to buy the dicounted boat in stock, because the discount is so large it's sending me a signal. Don't want the special order high dollar, because I might get stuck and take an enormouse loss.
Just here throwing s--t on the wall and see what sticks :-) Everyones reaction is an education in itself.
There is nothing wrong with buying a boat that is in stock if its what you wanted. And why would anyone bitch about a large discount, its every buyers dream! As a metter of fact its what everyone bitches about the most cuz they cant get a discounted price. as for an enormous loss, I am unsure about that... you are buying a boat that has sold itself on you, its going to bring you great days on the water. any loss gets put down as part of boating...
didnt you get a DCB?

[havaduner]

just think about what happens to us if we do not stay hydrated...
I'm already getting thirsty.:D

[franky]

I think the idea there is for the customer to pick a boat that they like, then they will rig to order... and deliver in a much shorter time than other builders. Bottom line is it saves the wait period getting into and out of the mold, on the down side - the customer settles for what is available at the time or they wait extended weeks for delivery. It does not seem like a bad biz idea if you can make it work and apparently they do.
did you guys know there was a magic regatta this weekend, I saw two or three of them in town today. Actually they were the only boats I saw driving through town today. Well there was an Advantage too.
How do you tell the difference between a regular weekend and a Magic Regatta weekend???:D

[Throttle]

How do you tell the difference between a regular weekend and a Magic Regatta weekend???:D
is this a trick question? how?

[uLtRADeNniS]

How do you tell the difference between a regular weekend and a Magic Regatta weekend???:D
Regular weekends are held at Moabi and the regatta is in Havasu?:confused: :idea:

[jbtrailerjim]

I was told by one Mfg. that if I signed loan docs. now, they would build me a "boat show" boat. They would include lots of extras, give a HUGH discount and make my payments for a year because I was a good guy and helping them out. Kind of scary. They did not want to do the same thing on one of the stock boats??? of which there were only 2 but not close to complete.
When something is too good to be true.....................it usually isn't.
Sign loan docs on a boat that isn't even built yet??? Run away from any mfg. who asks you to do something like that. What happens if you sign loan docs for a boat in your name and they go out of business before the boat is built? You're going to be left standing there with nothing but your dick in your hand and owing money to the bank.
I know this is a common thing that has been going on for years with some west coast boat builders but any mfg. that operates like that is a wrong! I'm fine with giving a small deposit up front to get the boat started but there is no way in hell I'd sign loan docs on a boat that has yet to be built.
Gee, I wonder if the banks that loan the money are aware and OK with this?:rolleyes:

[Magic34]

Gee, I wonder if the banks that loan the money are aware and OK with this?:rolleyes:
It is fraud and the insurance company would have to be scammed as well. If you get a loan, insurance MUST be in palce to take delivery or fund the loan.

[boatsntoys]

Sign loan docs on a boat that isn't even built yet??? Run away from any mfg. who asks you to do something like that. What happens if you sign loan docs for a boat in your name and they go out of business before the boat is built? You're going to be left standing there with nothing but your dick in your hand and owing money to the bank.
I know this is a common thing that has been going on for years with some west coast boat builders but any mfg. that operates like that is a wrong! I'm fine with giving a small deposit up front to get the boat started but there is no way in hell I'd sign loan docs on a boat that has yet to be built.
Gee, I wonder if the banks that loan the money are aware and OK with this?:rolleyes:
Pretty much what I thought.

[Charley]

I can agree that times are tight, but for some companies it is a great time to take market share.
The LA show is a great example... we may go this year finally!
It appears some spaces have been vacated and need to be filled...
I could light the hell outta yer boats :D :D :D

[Froggystyle]

I could light the hell outta yer boats :D :D :D
You are going to get the first call if I get a green light from SCMA...
Well, second call. Wait until you see what we have planned. Straight up seventh grade diorama science fair project crap... :D

[Baja Big Dog]

Not in the market for a new boat, but I gotta tell ya, after listening to the bullshit from the "other" boat guys, I would be hard pressed to think about another boat besides a Trident, listen to this guy laying all of his facts on the table, his financials, his business levels, not too many guys with that type of honesty in the market today, and his boats are the bomb, got a few rides in Tridents this summer, and was very impressed.
Kudos to you Froggy, and your business principles. Honesty is not always the best policy, but in this case it puts you ahead of the other guys.
As far a Magic having a yard full of boats, is it me or does anyone else see a potential problem with this?

[Havasu_Dreamin]

As far a Magic having a yard full of boats, is it me or does anyone else see a potential problem with this?
One would think so but from what I understand the owner has an ungodly amount of money so I think they'll be ok.....

[Baja Big Dog]

One would think so but from what I understand the owner has an ungodly amount of money so I think they'll be ok.....
Thats a good thing!!! But again, one has to wonder how long he will maintain his "ungodly" amount of money, with a yard full of inventory???:confused:

[BrendellaJet]

I think having the yard full of boats right now is not such a bad thing, especially if the owner has money. I also think that the boat show is a great place to be seen, and if at all possible boat mfg-ers should be there this year more than any other in recent history. When times are tough, the businesses that will emerge will be those who spent the money to be seen & heard when times were tough. Having hulls on hand is a wise move too because when the economy picks up they will be in a perfect position to gain market share because turnaround is much quicker. The successful businesses that are run responsibly can weather slow downs, those that aren't cant afford the boat show. Smart business decisions are made every day, not just when the economy takes a dive.

[franky]

I think having the yard full of boats right now is not such a bad thing, especially if the owner has money. I also think that the boat show is a great place to be seen, and if at all possible boat mfg-ers should be there this year more than any other in recent history. When times are tough, the businesses that will emerge will be those who spent the money to be seen & heard when times were tough. Having hulls on hand is a wise move too because when the economy picks up they will be in a perfect position to gain market share because turnaround is much quicker. The successful businesses that are run responsibly can weather slow downs, those that aren't cant afford the boat show. Smart business decisions are made every day, not just when the economy takes a dive.
Yeah but if you listen to "the news" that means that they will have 2 year old inventory....graphics/colors...tastes change and they may be stuck with yesterdays flavor.
What do yuo think Keith???

[Froggystyle]

ISmart business decisions are made every day, not just when the economy takes a dive.
You couldn't be more right. People with money make it in booms and busts. For the most part, I have seen that people with REAL money make it in the busts...
Magic has a lot of advantage/disadvantage with the inventory on hand. The advantage is that they hugely reduced overhead through a very, very slow market period. They racked up the boats and have been coasting with little or no (comparitively) manufacturing overhead. My manufacturing overhead is pretty well fixed, and I lack the resources to have racked up that many hulls and interiors... but can you imagine the cost per unit savings you could see by building over 100 units in one shot? Rolls of vinyl show up in trailer load quantities. Steel, glass... etc... all of these commodities have greatly increased in price since they built those boats up until this time last year. They also did a pretty serious labor lay-off as I recall, and that wouldn't hurt the bottom line either.
The flip side is, they built the boats very, very fast. With that comes production shortcuts in any business, and these boats are no exception.
There were easily millions of dollars spent on inventory alone, and with the capabilities of doing that financially, I think it was a great risk, though it doesn't appear to have paid off as well as it could have. Honestly, when I heard about the plan of build, inventory, layoff and reduce price... I got scared as hell. I thought it was going to spell doom for any boat in direct competition with them (Conquest, Eliminator, Commander etc...) as they would clearly be able to beat anyone on price, and I thought the ability to have an inventory that people could power and leave with would be the trump card.
The thing that saved the rest IMO is that with a Conquest you had to spend $95K to get one, but when you were done you got a boat worth $95K. Magic dropped its price to about $85K, but you got $85K worth of boat. The quality dropped, the name brand trailer dropped and the ability to build custom reduced. Enough people decided that they would rather spend a little more and have a little more boat to keep the rest building decks, and I think that Magic may have painted themselves into a corner for a little while as a result.
That said, they still have sold more decks than anyone else last year... probably by double. I don't think they met their goals... but who did? The boat is great looking, and a good value, and they have been building boats for a very long time. Most important, they have a lot of happy people out on the water in them.
We joke about the Magic regatta every weekend, but it is a testament to their success.
Put in the same situation, with the same resources... I bet I stack them up like cordwood too...

[rcfan]

DCB.....Middle of the road????? That suck's they didn't tell me that when I bought mine!

[Froggystyle]

DCB.....Middle of the road????? That suck's they didn't tell me that when I bought mine!
Actually, he said "middle sized builders" but go ahead and read into it whatever you want to...
At 40 boats or so a year, I think they qualify as middle sized. Eliminator is in the hundreds, as are others like Magic. They would certainly qualify as large builders...