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Froggystyle
12-17-2007, 05:34 PM
I proposed an idea I came up with last weekend in this thread...
http://www.***boat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173105
and it got me thinking about how the acutal polling for something like this would go. So, here is a poll....
The question is posed as it would be on a ballot... you either vote for it, or against it.
Proposition 496: Valid ID for fuel bill
This bill proposes that in order to purchase gasoline, propane or diesel, the purchaser must provide proof of a valid drivers license. If no valid drivers license is provided, service will be denied.
Vote Yes or No...

vee-driven
12-17-2007, 05:40 PM
I vote... that's the gayest thing i heard in awhile!!!

Froggystyle
12-17-2007, 05:42 PM
I vote... that's the gayest thing i heard in awhile!!!
You must not hear much actual gay stuff... Go hang out in BR if you really want to get a fill... :D
Or search for posts by DJunkie...

2Driver
12-17-2007, 05:43 PM
I'm just not a fan of solutions that don’t directly address the core problem. Especially ones that, at the end of the day, will have a "go-around".
We have enough laws we just need to stop being chicken $hit and start enforcing them IE
Protect the border in force
Enforce the no-hire or harbor of illegal’s.
Pay your taxes
Fix the guest worker program and maybe the anchor baby issue.
How about posting some pics of that new FJ?

Froggystyle
12-17-2007, 05:47 PM
I'm just not a fan of solutions that don’t directly address the core problem. Especially ones that, at the end of the day, will have a "go-around".
We have enough laws we just need to stop be chicken $hit and start to enforce them IE
Protect the border in force
Enforce the no-hire or harbor of illegal’s.
Pay your taxes
Fix the guest worker program and maybe the anchor baby issue.
I'm with you, but this solves a more fundamental issue than just illegal immigration... what it really does is get everyone who isn't legally allowed to drive off the road essentially. Lucky for us, 100% of illegal immigrants that drive are driving illegally, so this would, for all intents and purposes take all of the illegally driving illegal immigrants (as well as anyone with their license suspended or revoked) off the road entirely.
How about posting some pics of that new FJ?
Not finished yet. Wheels aren't in America yet (new KMC model) and the stereo still isn't done.. but here is one pic anyway with the roof painted, lift done, rack powdercoated and bike rack installed...
http://www.tridentboats.com/trident_boats_gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=4040&g2_serialNumber=2

FOXMAN
12-17-2007, 05:49 PM
I'm just not a fan of solutions that don’t directly address the core problem. Especially ones that, at the end of the day, will have a "go-around".
We have enough laws we just need to stop being chicken $hit and start enforcing them IE
Protect the border in force
Enforce the no-hire or harbor of illegal’s.
Pay your taxes
Fix the guest worker program and maybe the anchor baby issue.
How about posting some pics of that new FJ?
I agree. But if this is what it takes to help solve the problem. I'm for it.

maxwedge
12-17-2007, 05:55 PM
That's a great idea, except... Teenagers won't be able to mow lawns anymore, the Ederly who can't drive, and people who have DUI's won't be able to heat their homes with propane or cook burgers on a gas grill, and meanwhile all the mexicans that aren't stealing and siphoning your gas will be running around in hybrid natural gas/electric cars and top fuel dragsters.:D

2Driver
12-17-2007, 05:57 PM
Who was the guy that said: " I'm going to glue a burrito to the hood of my car and drive around the country until someone asks me what it is. Where ever that happens to be is where I am going to live" ?

ULTRA26 # 1
12-17-2007, 06:00 PM
Wes, I think it might help, at least here in SoCal

Wet Dream
12-17-2007, 06:02 PM
Like I said in your earlier thread, by doing this, you just created the biggest black market in Drivers Licenses. What does that get the American citizen? A whole new task force to fight this new crime, that WE have to pay MORE taxes for. Brilliant idea Froggy.

RiverToysJas
12-17-2007, 06:04 PM
It's a great dream.....but until the driver's license becomes standardized in some way across all states, I don't see it happening. Then there are Foreigners that here on vacation....some kind of temporary swipe card would have to be issued for them. Hell CA gives you a piece of paper for an extension. New drivers get a piece of paper as well. People who lost their license or had it stolen will need a FAST way to get a replacement.
Not to mention oil companies (BIG $$$) would fight it also.
Like I said, it's a good idea in theory, but reality puts it a long way off IMO.
RTJas :D

Froggystyle
12-17-2007, 06:17 PM
It's a great dream.....but until the driver's license becomes standardized in some way across all states, I don't see it happening. Then there are Foreigners that here on vacation....some kind of temporary swipe card would have to be issued for them. Hell CA gives you a piece of paper for an extension. New drivers get a piece of paper as well. People who lost their license or had it stolen will need a FAST way to get a replacement.
Not to mention oil companies (BIG $$$) would fight it also.
Like I said, it's a good idea in theory, but reality puts it a long way off IMO.
RTJas :D
Challenges, not problems, not impossible. A whole lot more possible I might add than summarilly removing every person driving illegally from the road through increased enforcement...
Oil would fight it, insurance would rally behind it. ACLU would fight it, everyone else would embrace it essentially.
Not to "Strawman" the discussion, but it boils down to whether or not you wish to remove people who are driving illegally from the road. Period. Everything else can be worked around.
Kids might have a greater problem buying gas for lawn mowers, but I needed my parents to drive me down to get the gas anyway when I did it, so there you go. I had a hell of a problem buying spray paint and isocyanate glue to build models when I was 13. You had to be 18. So, parents bought that stuff for me. Problem solved.

Jyruiz
12-17-2007, 06:20 PM
Cool, lets do it.

Froggystyle
12-17-2007, 06:20 PM
what about insurance? to get a driver lic?they get into the country with out papers they will get gas/fuel any way they can:mad: lets just close our boarders:idea:
You are stumbling onto my point here... You need insurance to be on the road legally. If you vote against this, you are essentially voting to allow illegal drivers to continue driving.

Jordy
12-17-2007, 06:22 PM
you just created the biggest black market in Drivers Licenses. What does that get the American citizen?
To me, that means it is time to get into the black market drivers' license business!!! :D :D :D

Froggystyle
12-17-2007, 06:24 PM
Like I said in your earlier thread, by doing this, you just created the biggest black market in Drivers Licenses. What does that get the American citizen? A whole new task force to fight this new crime, that WE have to pay MORE taxes for. Brilliant idea Froggy.
OK. We get it, you are a cynic.
You don't get an omlette without breaking some eggs. Yes, the black market for DL's would go up. So would the visibility of those black marketeers. Since it is all linked to a single database, you wouldn't be able to be successful with it very many times.
Any solution that addresses illegal drivers or illegal residents will require a task force. I think this would require the smallest one.

Froggystyle
12-17-2007, 06:25 PM
To me, that means it is time to get into the black market drivers' license business!!! :D :D :D
That is what I was thinking. :D

RiverToysJas
12-17-2007, 06:25 PM
Challenges, not problems, not impossible. A whole lot more possible I might add than summarilly removing every person driving illegally from the road through increased enforcement...
Oil would fight it, insurance would rally behind it. ACLU would fight it, everyone else would embrace it essentially.
Not to "Strawman" the discussion, but it boils down to whether or not you wish to remove people who are driving illegally from the road. Period. Everything else can be worked around.
Oh I agree....I voted for it already.....just saying it's not an easy fix. Nothing that can't be overcome, but nothing quick or easy about it. That's all.
If anyone can do it Wes, you can!!! Get on it..... :devil:
RTJas :D

Jbb
12-17-2007, 06:26 PM
All ***boat polls shall have RD SUX as an option...:jawdrop:

Jordy
12-17-2007, 06:27 PM
Since it is all linked to a single database, you wouldn't be able to be successful with it very many times.
C'mon now, how many people can really live at 1060 W. Addison anyway??? :idea:
That is what I was thinking. :D
;)

RiverToysJas
12-17-2007, 06:28 PM
To me, that means it is time to get into the black market drivers' license business!!! :D :D :D
Nothing new there, that's been big business since long before you or I were trying to buy 40's of Bud in HS. ;)
BTW.....fake birth certs is where it's at...with those you get a real license (provided you can pass the tests), and they are much easier to fake! :)
RTJas :D

Jordy
12-17-2007, 06:30 PM
Nothing new there, that's been big business since long before you or I were trying to buy 40's of Bud in HS. ;)
BTW.....fake birth certs is where it's at...with those you get a real license (provided you can pass the tests), and they are much easier to fake! :)
RTJas :D
Sure the birth certificates are the easy way out. I'd rather sharpen the cutting edge and be the DCB of fake IDs. :D :D :D

Froggystyle
12-17-2007, 06:30 PM
C'mon now, how many people can really live at 1060 W. Addison anyway??? :idea:
;)
We're getting the band back together... :D
http://www.2bproductions.net/artists/images/theBLUESBROTHERs.jpg

Jordy
12-17-2007, 06:31 PM
We're getting the band back together... :D
I figured you'd catch that one. :)
Oh, and I hate Illinois Nazis. :devil: :D

Froggystyle
12-17-2007, 06:32 PM
Sure the birth certificates are the easy way out. I'd rather sharpen the cutting edge and be the DCB of fake IDs. :D :D :D
Hey now, those would be the "Worlds Greatest" fake ID... The Trident fake ID would be the only one "Sharpening the Cutting Edge" there Sally...

RiverToysJas
12-17-2007, 06:32 PM
C'mon now, how many people can really live at 1060 W. Addison anyway??? :idea:
;)
It's a big place! :idea:

Jordy
12-17-2007, 06:33 PM
Hey now, those would be the "Worlds Greatest" fake ID... The Trident fake ID would be the only one "Sharpening the Cutting Edge" there Sally...
World's Greatest Fake ID Racing??? :jawdrop: :D
Would the Trident ID be infused and vacuum bagged as well??? :idea:

DAB
12-17-2007, 06:34 PM
Oil would fight it, insurance would rally behind it. ACLU would fight it, everyone else would embrace it essentially. And it essentially would be put on hold for the next decade while it went through every court system in the country, all the while nothing is done to address the border problem, no wall, no increase in personell , etc..etc..
Not to "Strawman" the discussion, but it boils down to whether or not you wish to remove people who are driving illegally from the road. Period. Everything else can be worked around. I disagree strongly, I don't want illegals on road.. I also don't want our government following me from city to city, state to state as I purchase gas... and yes I've heard it all, if they want to find you they will.. sure they will, but why would I put a spot beam on my head? And if I don't want anyone to know where I've been, I pay cash. Period!
Kids might have a greater problem buying gas for lawn mowers, but I needed my parents to drive me down to get the gas anyway when I did it, so there you go. I had a hell of a problem buying spray paint and isocyanate glue to build models when I was 13. You had to be 18. So, parents bought that stuff for me. Problem solved. So then some poor parent buys his kid gas for the mower, kid's walking down the street with 2 gallons of gas and someone offers the kid $40.00 for his gas and he doesn't have to mow anything? Next thing you know, parents are brought up on aiding the illegal plight by selling gasoline (purchased via their card) and are doing 10-20?
While it all sounds great in theory as stated many times the black market that would be created would be crippling

Jbb
12-17-2007, 06:35 PM
http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=45428&stc=1&d=1197945295

RiverToysJas
12-17-2007, 06:36 PM
I heard there's a guy in Az that'll put any graphics you want on the ID.....but they don't hold up very well.... :rolleyes:
RTJas ;)

Jbb
12-17-2007, 06:36 PM
World's Greatest Fake ID Racing??? :jawdrop: :D
Would the Trident ID be infused and vacuum bagged as well??? :idea:
With the revolutionary dual magnetic strips...:D

RiverToysJas
12-17-2007, 06:38 PM
..... I also don't want our government following me from city to city, state to state as I purchase gas... and yes I've heard it all, if they want to find you they will.. sure they will, but why would I put a spot beam on my head? And if I don't want anyone to know where I've been, I pay cash. Period!
Nicely played Dave!!! Very good point......is it too late to change my vote? :idea:
RTJas :D

DAB
12-17-2007, 06:44 PM
Nicely played Dave!!! Very good point......is it too late to change my vote? :idea:
RTJas :D Thanks Jason... while I like it in theory we're talking decades of fighting while nothing gets done.. It would make for good rhetoric for the 08 election, it would be just that... enough to spark some votes and conversation and then pushed aside as unfeasible, unmanageable, another goverment agency and were trying to reduce government, etc..etc..

Cheap Thrills
12-17-2007, 06:46 PM
:D clicky (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEJL2Uuv-oQ)
T.

Froggystyle
12-17-2007, 06:49 PM
And it essentially would be put on hold for the next decade while it went through every court system in the country, all the while nothing is done to address the border problem, no wall, no increase in personell , etc..etc..
And, in ten years we would have a great system in place. Look at the bright side... :D
I disagree strongly, I don't want illegals on road.. I also don't want our government following me from city to city, state to state as I purchase gas... and yes I've heard it all, if they want to find you they will.. sure they will, but why would I put a spot beam on my head? And if I don't want anyone to know where I've been, I pay cash. Period!
Fair. You would trade the security of all drivers on the road for imaginary privacy. No problem here. Be sure to take the battery out of your cell phone too, and bring plenty of foil for all of the hats you will need... ;)
So then some poor parent buys his kid gas for the mower, kid's walking down the street with 2 gallons of gas and someone offers the kid $40.00 for his gas and he doesn't have to mow anything? Next thing you know, parents are brought up on aiding the illegal plight by selling gasoline (purchased via their card) and are doing 10-20?
Teach your kids. Don't walk down the street with gas. Have some common sense, and let them know what it means by breaking the law in such a manner, and the risk they will put everyone at by doing so.
I don't think they would enforce this law any more stringently than say, alcohol to minors... but one can hope I guess.
While it all sounds great in theory as stated many times the black market that would be created would be crippling
Not to me. In the worst case scenario of the black market, people are able to buy fake ID's and buy gas. They do that now for anyway. How much more crippling than throngs of illegal drivers on the roadways, uninsured motorist insurance, uninsured patient surcharges etc... would it be?
Bureaucracy would be removed in a net-sum outlook on it, not added.

Froggystyle
12-17-2007, 06:50 PM
:D clicky (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEJL2Uuv-oQ)
T.
I went around that method... :D

2Driver
12-17-2007, 07:04 PM
http://www.***boat.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=45428&stc=1&d=1197945295
I hate Illinois Nazis.

DAB
12-17-2007, 07:11 PM
And, in ten years we would have a great system in place. Look at the bright side... :D Maybe...
Fair. You would trade the security of all drivers on the road for imaginary privacy. No problem here. Be sure to take the battery out of your cell phone too, and bring plenty of foil for all of the hats you will need... ;) You forget what I do for a living don't you? I know better than that, when I want to be in two places at once, my wife takes the phone and text's herself from me of course..:D
Teach your kids. Don't walk down the street with gas. Have some common sense, and let them know what it means by breaking the law in such a manner, and the risk they will put everyone at by doing so. I thought they were mowing the lawn.. and we all know that kids at any age listen to everything they're parents tell them, don't speed, be home on time, do your homework, do your chores, etc..etc.. and before you chime in, ask anyone that knows me and they will all tell you that my girls are as good as they come, not perfect but they know the rules.. just in case you were wondering 2 Biology Majors, oldest one just applied to Dental school..
I don't think they would enforce this law any more stringently than say, alcohol to minors... but one can hope I guess. You would hope so, but you never know..
Not to me. In the worst case scenario of the black market, people are able to buy fake ID's and buy gas. They do that now for anyway. How much more crippling than throngs of illegal drivers on the roadways, uninsured motorist insurance, uninsured patient surcharges etc... would it be?
That's really your worst case scenario? When was the last time someone broke into your house or held you up for gas? That's some shit on want to see on Cop's.. Trust me, I am currently no fan of the premiums I pay on both my medical and auto insurance but honestly Wes I just don't see this doing it, next thing I know my medical and auto premiums will go up because there's an increase in the violent Auto-Jackings taking place because the illegals can't buy gas..
Bureaucracy would be removed in a net-sum outlook on it, not added. One could only hope...
BTW, just as a final thought.. If I were an illegal and heard anything like this in the media, I'd convert my car to Bio-Diesel (they can get the oil from the restaurants they work at) if I had a diesel or I'd convert my card to ethanol and start ferminting shit so that I could have enough fuel stored away...

RitcheyRch
12-17-2007, 07:13 PM
Voted yes although dont think will ever happen since would be too difficult to enforce.

Racey
12-17-2007, 07:22 PM
Just becomes another inconvienence to the average american, while the illegals will find a way around it, and some scumbag will begin selling fuel with no-id check at a premium cost.
We need to start enforcing laws that are already on the books, get rid of birth right citizenship, and start fully documenting (DNA, Fingerprints, Multiple Photographs, and other information) and sending these fawks back at every chance possible, basically get the f'n INS to start doing it's job properly, then have harsh punishments for repeat border crossers.
IMO just one more step towards Orwell's 1984, there is no freedom without anonymity

Rexone
12-17-2007, 07:47 PM
Enforce the border laws in place. Problem over on incoming.
Require employers to hire US citizens or immigrants that are here legally.
Problem over on existing (no work they will leave)
The few that remain and cause problems get deported.
Anchor babies, sorry no deal. Immigrate legally or go home within 6 mo.
No one here will do that work. Bullshit. Not for pennies on the dollar like illegals but it will get done at higher cost. When considering all the free shit the illegals now get the US will save money doing this. We are now ALL paying for the free shit.
That's my answer. The fuel deal is a weak bandaid imo and will not fix the problem only create more probably.
Bottom line is we need to elect some people with some balls to do the right thing and protect our country. Mexico will overrun the US if this is not fixed. Not to mention the terrorist threat from having open borders.
Take a look. Watch it all. (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4094926727128068265&q=number)
.
.
.
.
.

Ryphraph
12-17-2007, 08:10 PM
We could corner the market on high security, locking gas caps if we get started TODAY!!!
But then all the gas tanks would just get punc'ed underneath to drain into a 2 liter Mtn Dew bottle...
Ryph

Moneypitt
12-17-2007, 08:27 PM
Ah, where are your PAPERS??.........Sounds like big brother at his worst. Now you're asking "Habibb" the towel head on the corner, to enforce our immigration laws??..Lets add the station attendants to the long list of people that refuse to question immigration status daily. Heathcare workers, Educational institutes, local police and Sherriffs agencies, banks, landlords, realestate agents............And on and on............The Ca DMV requires proof of insurance to register a vehicle.......An Oxnard insurance company issues insurance to un licensed drivers.......See a pattern here?.........This proposal reflects a future where the government knows exactly where everyone is at all times. A central data base? And who runs the data base?......1984, thought crimes, and doom are close to follow. Enforce our existing laws, as they were meant to be enforced, end of story, end of problem.........OR BETTER YET....Lets require government issued ID to buy FOOD!!!!!...Oh wait, Nazi Germany did that in the late 30s.......Papers, please.......Are YOUR papers in order?...........Really dumb idea............MP

uvindex
12-17-2007, 08:46 PM
Just becomes another inconvienence to the average american, while the illegals will find a way around it, and some scumbag will begin selling fuel with no-id check at a premium cost.yI came in here to say essentially the same thing. :)
Reminds me of how I have to show my driver's license to BUY COLD MEDICINE FOR MY KIDS because worthless criminal tweakers figured out they could use the ingredients to manufacture meth. Fortunately, I don't buy cold medicine that often. I buy gas a lot, however, and expect to continue to do so for many years to come and would not welcome this inconvenience (not to mention invasion of privacy).
I vote no for Senator Froggy's measure. :D

Froggystyle
12-18-2007, 08:04 AM
Well, a couple of things are clear to me from this poll and the other thread...
There are problem solvers... people willing to create some personal headache and sacrifice for themselves in order to solve problems...
And there are pessimists who are so scared of a change to their routine that they run from every opportunity to enact this sort of a change.
Now, how many people who voted no are against the Patriot Act?

Froggystyle
12-18-2007, 08:10 AM
BTW, on a quick re-thought here... it wouldn't have to be trackable per-se. Much like phone records or otherwise, it would take a court order to find out the location information of a given drivers license number. (The same court order FYI that likely would be the one shutting off the fuel FYI)
I would personally like to see people who aren't supposed to be driving off the road. If you are supposed to be driving, but have had your license suspended for a failure to appear or something like that, you now have a reason to prioritize that.

catman-do
12-18-2007, 08:10 AM
While i do think it is a minor fix, and there would be many ways around it. I think that if we do a bunch of these types of laws then it will make it sooo unattractive for illegals to come here, that they will just stop coming. Either that, or I will make a TON of money when i open up my underground gas station!

Froggystyle
12-18-2007, 08:14 AM
Reminds me of how I have to show my driver's license to BUY COLD MEDICINE FOR MY KIDS because worthless criminal tweakers figured out they could use the ingredients to manufacture meth. Fortunately, I don't buy cold medicine that often. I buy gas a lot, however, and expect to continue to do so for many years to come and would not welcome this inconvenience (not to mention invasion of privacy).
Wow.
Sounds like not only a great way to solve a huge problem and regulate the sale of narcotics to drug manufacturers, but it sounds like the law has protecting YOUR kids in mind.
With no additional enforcement, they just took a huge, easy ingredient for meth off the street, and you aren't willing to show your ID for that?
Thanks for the help on the war on drugs... :rolleyes:

RiverToysJas
12-18-2007, 08:16 AM
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Benjamin Franklin (01/17/1706 – 04/17/1790) American inventor, journalist, printer, diplomat, and statesman.
RTJas :D

Seadog
12-18-2007, 08:57 AM
I like the idea. It would take a while to implement and would face challenges from the extreme left and right. It will also boil down to the old argument of a national ID card to do it right. Replace the existing driver's license, SSAN card and a few others with one national card, issued by the states. Have a permanent federal sector and a state sector that can be modified with encryption devices that cannot be duplicated and each with its own encoding mark.

Froggystyle
12-18-2007, 09:15 AM
I like the idea. It would take a while to implement and would face challenges from the extreme left and right. It will also boil down to the old argument of a national ID card to do it right. Replace the existing driver's license, SSAN card and a few others with one national card, issued by the states. Have a permanent federal sector and a state sector that can be modified with encryption devices that cannot be duplicated and each with its own encoding mark.
I agree, but think that the concept of a national ID is disdained so much that it would prevent the law from actually being used.
This is butt simple... what would you show the cop who pulls you over? What legal DL are you going to show him? If you get pulled over, you have to have it, or you go to jail and have your car impounded.
Wouldn't you rather solve this at the supply side?
The ID's are already in place. The card readers are already in place. The mechanism is already in place, and the training is already in place (any gas station that sells cigarrettes has the capability of checking an ID).
If it has severe, vast-reaching circumstances then it will explain clearly how widespread the problem of illegal drivers is. Perhaps that will awaken a few.

Froggystyle
12-18-2007, 09:19 AM
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Benjamin Franklin (01/17/1706 – 04/17/1790) American inventor, journalist, printer, diplomat, and statesman.
RTJas :D
An easy pot-shot to take, and an oft-inappropriately quoted saying by a great thinker.
I say any society unwilling to sacrifice to gain security and enforce our LAWS will quickly lose both.
It is illegal to drive without a license... Should we revoke that law? Do away with licenses because it gives away our home location and allows the government to track us? I mean Jeez.... "they" know where we live!
Either enforce the laws or repeal them. It is cruel to have legions of people living outside of the law because we are willing to let them "get away with it".

uLtRADeNniS
12-18-2007, 09:26 AM
I vote... that's the gayest thing i heard in awhile!!!
You are by far one of my favorite people on Hot Boat!

Racey
12-18-2007, 09:29 AM
Take a look. Watch it all. (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4094926727128068265&q=number)
.
I watched that video a few months back, that guy makes the perfect presentation, it really puts the problem into perspective, even for complete idiots. Great video Rexie!

Froggystyle
12-18-2007, 09:34 AM
You are by far one of my favorite people on Hot Boat!
I take it back... if you want gay talk, follow UD around... ;)

Sherpa
12-18-2007, 09:49 AM
I like the concept, but don't like the gov having some of the power.... the
idea rocks. I would vote yes, I guess..
one thing, I could only imagine the rise in fuel thefts... siphoning, farm fuel,
anything without a locking gas cap is gonna get hit.......
banditos circling around in little minivans with 55 gal drums in the back,
with a short section of tubing, connected to an electric fuel pump.......
a hi performance race pump could drain a 30 gal pickup tank in like 1 minute.
--Sherpa

HM
12-18-2007, 09:50 AM
With all due respect-- And remember, I'm saying, 'with all due respect.' --that idea ain't worth a velvet painting of a whale and a dolphin getting it on. (http://www.moviewavs.com/php/sounds/?id=bst&media=WAVS&type=Movies&movie=Talladega_Nights_The_Ballad_Of_Ricky_Bobby&quote=velvetpainting.txt&file=velvetpainting.wav)

uLtRADeNniS
12-18-2007, 10:24 AM
I take it back... if you want gay talk, follow UD around... ;)
Great Idea!

SB
12-18-2007, 10:34 AM
With all due respect-- And remember, I'm saying, 'with all due respect.' --that idea ain't worth a velvet painting of a whale and a dolphin getting it on. (http://www.moviewavs.com/php/sounds/?id=bst&media=WAVS&type=Movies&movie=Talladega_Nights_The_Ballad_Of_Ricky_Bobby&quote=velvetpainting.txt&file=velvetpainting.wav)
That site locked up my computer. :mad:

ratso
12-18-2007, 10:37 AM
You gotta start somewhere... but for some reason our government isn't too damn worried about it.

Froggystyle
12-18-2007, 10:49 AM
I like the concept, but don't like the gov having some of the power.... the
idea rocks. I would vote yes, I guess..
one thing, I could only imagine the rise in fuel thefts... siphoning, farm fuel,
anything without a locking gas cap is gonna get hit.......
banditos circling around in little minivans with 55 gal drums in the back,
with a short section of tubing, connected to an electric fuel pump.......
a hi performance race pump could drain a 30 gal pickup tank in like 1 minute.
--Sherpa
Yeah, but with gas approaching $4/gallon, don't you think that would have already started?
The easy assumption to make is that everyone who drives illegally is also a thief. I don't think that is the case. I don't think that people stealing gas to get to work is a long term solution to their problem. I couldn't do it...
It is easy to say it won't work, or that jackbooted thugs are all of a sudden going to start regulating your fuel use. Slippery slopes are awesome... you just don't want to get hurt sliding down them.
The back of my shop seems to be a magnet for homeless. It isn't fenced in, there is shelter and a beat down fence that goes to a storm water culvert. The bums use the culvert to travel across town without cops seeing them. I had problems back there with vandalism, trash and paraphenalia debris. Then I put a camera up there with a flash that took a picture every 23 minutes. No more problem. No more trash. No more homeless in my yard.
I did something to solve my problem, and it didn't involve cops, it didn't involve confrontation and it didn't require force. My camera never got vandalized either, and nobody put a brick through my window in retaliation.
I don't think people are inherently lawbreakers. I think that if you can't buy fuel legally, they won't.

DAB
12-18-2007, 11:44 AM
Well, a couple of things are clear to me from this poll and the other thread...
There are problem solvers... people willing to create some personal headache and sacrifice for themselves in order to solve problems...
And there are pessimists who are so scared of a change to their routine that they run from every opportunity to enact this sort of a change.
Now, how many people who voted no are against the Patriot Act?
Because some of us think the idea is crazy we are now pessimists and not problem solvers? Also, I don't believe that by not being able to buy some over the counter medicines has hurt the availability of Crystal Meth...
How about this, ENFORCE the laws currently in place (not half ass support) let's say for 2 to 3 years, also build the wall. Then evaluate the situation and see if by enforcing the laws if we've cut the problem way down, if we haven't then look at something else.. I'm not saying fuel, nor am I against it. I just believe that if we truly enforce current laws and give le's the ability to do what's right and not flip it over to INS we could make a huge dent on the problem.
Also, how do we address the Bio-Diesel/Ethanol issue? Do we now regulate cooking oil & corn/sugar/waste?

QuickJet
12-18-2007, 12:08 PM
We don't need more laws and restrictions that make out lives a bigger inconveinience. We just need to enfroce the laws that are already on the books.
So how would "pay at the pump work" if you have to run inside anyways to get the pump turned on. And would this gas ID thing be a safety net held up by minimum wage employees.
I second the motion: Gayest thing I've ever heard!!!

Wet Dream
12-18-2007, 12:27 PM
I suppose every single pump is going to have an ISDN line or similar connection to a national database, or do we all have to go into the store and show proof and then go pump? Or does the reader just accept thats its a magnetic strip and allow you to pump? If the info goes down, nobody can buy fuel? No, I'm not being cynical. Why do we all neen to be inconvenienced furthermore?

Froggystyle
12-18-2007, 01:06 PM
Good questions all...
""So how would "pay at the pump work" if you have to run inside anyways to get the pump turned on. "
If you are paying at the pump, it can read your ID card. You swipe your Credit Card or debit card, whatever, plug in your zip code (like you do now) and then swipe your ID. Done deal.
If you are paying cash, when you hand the turd your cash, you hand him an ID too.
Think of it exactly the same way as buying a six pack. No inconvenience at all really. Most places if you buy with a CC you need to show ID anyway.
"If the info goes down, nobody can buy fuel?"
If the system went down, you show your ID. It would indicate that the CC system went down too though, so you will need to go get cash.
I don't remember the last time I couldn't buy gas with a CC though...
"We don't need more laws and restrictions that make out lives a bigger inconveinience. We just need to enfroce the laws that are already on the books."
Everyone wants to "enforce the laws" and I am a firm believer in the theory. But in the 35 years I have been alive, I haven't seen many laws get additional enforcement with one exception... street racing. So Cal decided they had enough of it, and they passed strict penalties for street racers... like... get your car smashed strict. Pretty much dried up much of the organized illegal racing around here anyway.
We can wait around for the politicians to decide they want to enforce immigration. We can pay billions of dollars and build a fence. We can make life difficult for people who employ illegals, and we can spend millions putting tons of cops on the street to try to get people who aren't supposed to be driving off the road.
Or, you can check an ID.
"Why do we all neen to be inconvenienced furthermore?"
To become part of the solution. It is a mild inconvenience for anyone with a valid DL. The impact would be huge, for very, very, very little expense or added bureaucracy. As I mentioned... everything is in place already.

Froggystyle
12-18-2007, 01:11 PM
Because some of us think the idea is crazy we are now pessimists and not problem solvers? Also, I don't believe that by not being able to buy some over the counter medicines has hurt the availability of Crystal Meth...
It absolutely put a hurt on it. I had people working for me with relatives that had real problems with meth. They were making it, taking it and selling it. Once the cough syrup got controlled... they hit bottom and got help.
The people who are claiming inconvenience are the people I am basically directing that at. They don't want to flash an ID because it is too inconvenient, but they have no problem building a fence, "enforcing the laws" currently in place or any other heroic act... as long as someone else has to do it.
Also, how do we address the Bio-Diesel/Ethanol issue? Do we now regulate cooking oil & corn/sugar/waste?
The same exact way we have addressed the home brewed beer issue. Not enough volume to matter, and as long as it isn't being sold they have done a great job sidestepping the legislation. People willing to brew alcohol themselves don't need to show an ID to buy it. Congrats.

QuickJet
12-18-2007, 01:25 PM
Exactly how far up the ass are we supposed to have our government? The whole premiss is insane.
You want us to show ID for gas purchase yet it's illegal for an officer of the law to ask a suspected illegal alien for valid ID or to question his citizenship?
Who is being punished here?? Certainly not the illegal.
It's another "Big Brother" tracking system.
Just deport every illegal and their children, get rid of sanctuary cities, and fine landlords and employers for dealing with illegals.
Banks give credit cards and bank accounts to those without valid ID. Illegals buy houses and cars. ID for gas is insane won't do shit except make life harder for the tax paying citizens of this country.
This proposed law just shows how far peole would go to fvck themselves rather than take care of the problem.

Froggystyle
12-18-2007, 01:37 PM
Exactly how far up the ass are we supposed to have our government? The whole premiss is insane.
:confused:
You want us to show ID for gas purchase yet it's illegal for an officer of the law to ask a suspected illegal alien for valid ID or to question his citizenship?
Right, one is asking for proof of a valid drivers license to purchase fuel for a car you are planning on driving, and the other is racially profiling and harrassment. The beauty of this is that it doesn't care what race you are, only your validity as a driver.
Who is being punished here?? Certainly not the illegal. It isn't a punishment... it is a regulation. It only adds reality to the concept that you have to be a legal driver to drive legally.
It's another "Big Brother" tracking system.
Could be... but it could also be mandated that it wasn't to be used for that purpose.
Just deport every illegal and their children, get rid of sanctuary cities, and fine landlords and employers for dealing with illegals.
Banks give credit cards and bank accounts to those without valid ID. Illegals buy houses and cars.
That sounds easy and inexpensive. Where do we start? As far as I know, every illegal that is caught is deported. Any LE care to chime in on this?
ID for gas is insane won't do shit except make life harder for the tax paying citizens of this country. This proposed law just shows how far peole would go to fvck themselves rather than take care of the problem.
Again... wow.
How much harder would your life get?
What you have proposed is how far people will go to have someone else take care of their problem. This is a simple, easy requirement for anyone with a valid DL to accomplish.
OK... ball is in your court. Who's door do we bang on first?

Wet Dream
12-18-2007, 01:43 PM
"If the info goes down, nobody can buy fuel?"
If the system went down, you show your ID. It would indicate that the CC system went down too though, so you will need to go get cash.
I don't remember the last time I couldn't buy gas with a CC though...
To become part of the solution. It is a mild inconvenience for anyone with a valid DL. The impact would be huge, for very, very, very little expense or added bureaucracy. As I mentioned... everything is in place already.
So this National ID database can't go down because its tied to the CC companies? One computer can't crash, so it'll work?
Everything is in place? What reads the DL? Now every station/pump has to have this device. Its free? And if it isn't working, we are going to rely on every genius gas station attendant to determine whether its a real or fake ID? So does he/she confiscate it, leaving the driver totally screwed because of judgement? Getting gas is an inconvenience in itself, so lets add more to it.
I dump $400 a day into my truck. Its a pain in the ass as it is, and the systems do go down, and all I want to do is scan them, fuel up and go. When they don't work, now I have to go stand in line and deal with a tool.
Add to that, we don't have your stupid problem all over the country. Just to name a few, nobody in Montana, Kansas, Vermont or Maine gives a crap about the illegals and the problems you suffer in CA, TX, GA, NM. You guys do. Deal with it on a local level. Go ahead and make all the CA residents get their ID's and see what happens to tourism.

Wet Dream
12-18-2007, 01:49 PM
And why stop there? Why not have the insurance companies all tie in with this and make sure your ins is up to date and legal so you can get fuel?

Froggystyle
12-18-2007, 02:00 PM
So this National ID database can't go down because its tied to the CC companies? One computer can't crash, so it'll work?
No, if the computer crashes, you just show your DL and you are done.
Everything is in place? What reads the DL? Now every station/pump has to have this device. Its free?
It is the credit card reader. Most stations have one.
And if it isn't working, we are going to rely on every genius gas station attendant to determine whether its a real or fake ID?
We are counting on them right now to control the sale of alcohol and tobacco. Same deal here.
So does he/she confiscate it, leaving the driver totally screwed because of judgement? Getting gas is an inconvenience in itself, so lets add more to it. [/quote
No. No more than they confiscate a fake ID if you try to buy beer with it. You are reading way more into this than you need to...
[QUOTE=Wet Dream;2950192]I dump $400 a day into my truck. Its a pain in the ass as it is, and the systems do go down, and all I want to do is scan them, fuel up and go. When they don't work, now I have to go stand in line and deal with a tool.
Right... if you can scan your card, you can scan the ID. I think you are beginning to stumble on how easy this will be.
Add to that, we don't have your stupid problem all over the country. Just to name a few, nobody in Montana, Kansas, Vermont or Maine gives a crap about the illegals and the problems you suffer in CA, TX, GA, NM. You guys do. Deal with it on a local level.
You don't have people driving illegally in PA? If not, this won't affect you at all. Easy day. Swipe your DL and go about your day.
Go ahead and make all the CA residents get their ID's and see what happens to tourism.
Well, this wouldn't address your residents at all... just the drivers. I think tourism will be just fine. We offer more here than "Drivers License not required" fuel here.

Froggystyle
12-18-2007, 02:02 PM
And why stop there? Why not have the insurance companies all tie in with this and make sure your ins is up to date and legal so you can get fuel?
You don't need insurance to have a license. You need it to register the car though... We can just let the LE deal with expired registrations... but I like the way you are thinking... ;)

Wet Dream
12-18-2007, 02:12 PM
Froggy, usually you have innovative ideas, but you're delusional to think that this is the solution and can't see the pitfalls involved. You know you're not the first to think of this nightmare, but it hasn't gone anywhere on a national level, and I doubt it will.

QuickJet
12-18-2007, 02:14 PM
:confused:
Right, one is asking for proof of a valid drivers license to purchase fuel for a car you are planning on driving, and the other is racially profiling and harrassment. The beauty of this is that it doesn't care what race you are, only your validity as a driver.
You missed the point. In certain cities they have dissbanded the traffic devisions of the police departments because ILLEGALS were complaining about getting having their cars impounded due to lack of a drivers license. It sounds to me that this law wouldn't change a thing when it comes to illegals stealling from our country.
:It isn't a punishment... it is a regulation. It only adds reality to the concept that you have to be a legal driver to drive legally.
It's a punishment to us and an inconvienence by REGULATING anything. Rather than regulate...I'd rather eliminate.
Do you really think that because an illegal has to steal a Drivers License that they will just pack up and go home. You aren't that nieve are you?
:Could be... but it could also be mandated that it wasn't to be used for that purpose.
H ah ha...yes because the governemnt can be trusted....too funny.
Hmmm, yah think gas prices would go through the roof due to all the new Gas machines that would have to be installed?
:That sounds easy and inexpensive. Where do we start? As far as I know, every illegal that is caught is deported. Any LE care to chime in on this?
There are an estimated 20 million illegals pilfering our country at this very moment. We know where the majority are. Nab em and send them home with a message.
:Again... wow.
How much harder would your life get?
I don't know. Guess I'd have to wait until my drivers license got stolen or I had to go inside the gas station and wait in line to swipe my ID then a code, then wait for approval etc etc.....
And it take 3-4 weeks to get a Drivers License replaced after it's been stolen. I guess I could just hang out at home until I get it back since I wouldn't be able to buy any gas.
Talk about a pain in the ass!!! No thank you. take tha cuffs off the boarder patrol and law enforment and lets really get rid of the problem instead passing stupid laws generated to appease the masses.
:What you have proposed is how far people will go to have someone else take care of their problem. This is a simple, easy requirement for anyone with a valid DL to accomplish.
Is what I'm asking for is for people to do their jobs.
Don't house illegals and don't employ them. Don't eduacate their children and don't allow them in our hostpitals. Don't offer welfare or aid to illegals and their families. Deport all known illegals. Impound and sell all possesions of illegals.
I can go on and on. This government and all it's predissesors are afraid to do what they need to do.
I am tired of them not doing anything and thinking that the 17 year old pimple faced punk behind the counter at AM/PM is going to be this nations safety net.
Bull shitt!!

Keith E. Sayre
12-18-2007, 02:55 PM
I've said this a thousand times on various websites. Build a big tall long wall,
then man it.
I also like Froggys idea of the gas thing. It might help too.