Motor Milkshake

[cyclone]

Ok I have important questions for those who know because I milkshaked my 455 Olds over the weekend at Havasu. I know this this has been discussed before but I'll ask anyways.
I'm attributing the milkshake to the fact that the gate valve on my pump was open 8 full turns. Is it possible for it to vibrate and turn on its own? I normally have it set at 1.5 turns and my motor runs at about 140 degrees.
while idling through the channel I noticed water coming out of the headers at 800 rpm so I pulled the boat out of the water and checked the Bassett T-fitting. The spring and ball seemed fine so then I pulled the dipstick. The whole pan was full of water!
The motor didn't seize but I need to figure out what caused the problem. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks!

[jordanpaulk]

Pressure check all your cylinders for a blown head gasket. I just went through all that. I dont know much about Olds, but the whole gate valve thing sounds like a coincidence. I could be wrong, but I think it would hydro-lock if enough water was running through the heads and cylinders due to valve overlap to fill the oil pan with water.

[cyclone]

yeah but if it wasn't the gate valve, then what blew out the head gasket? I thought that maybe the excess water pressure from the valve being all the way open did it. The motor has never even been hot.
I also would like to know why there was water coming out of the exhaust at such a low rpm.

[Licketty Split]

You probubly got some crap in the t-valve and wel you pulled it a part it disapeared bofore you could see it. Or on the bad side you blew a gasket or worse....How much water you say the hole pan was full??? That doesnt sound good

[cyclone]

I say the whole pan because by the time i got to the launch ramp, milkshake was coming out of the oil filler tube at the front of the motor.
When i pulled the T-fitting apart, there was nothing in it. it was all clean and the fitting and headers are brand new.

[boatlessd]

One: Check your head gasket. Too much pressure from the gate valve will surely cause it to blow. That is the weakest area of the engine where water travels. That happened to me and I blew a piston and bent a rod. Not Good.
Two: Check your exhaust flaps and make sure they are in good condition. Water will travel backwards. Replace if necessary.
Three: Install a water separator to prevent condensation from getting into your fuel.

[HavasuDreamin']

Read the thread about the Kachina and BRE engines. Too much water pressure was the culprit there. I think you found your problem. Good Luck

[jordanpaulk]

Originally posted by cyclone:
yeah but if it wasn't the gate valve, then what blew out the head gasket? I thought that maybe the excess water pressure from the valve being all the way open did it. The motor has never even been hot.
I also would like to know why there was water coming out of the exhaust at such a low rpm.
On my BBC, I dont even have a valve to regulate water off the pump into the motor. There is a valve on the back side after the water has left the motor. The more that valve is closed, the earlier the water starts running through the headers. My head gasket blowing had nothing to do with any of that. I found out after the fact that when it was put together someone used cheap ass gaskets. Unfortunately, my motor locked up due to the motor milkshake. You may want to take a look at your main and rod bearings while you are at it just to be on the safe side, especially if there was that much water in it.

[Q-ball]

cyclone, are you running a valve on the water exit? If so a full open inlet valve and a cranked down exit valve would for sure cause some problems. It seems to me for water to inject into the pipes at 800, there must have been some restriction on the exit side of the water system. Hey by the the way I cooked the Rewarders I bought from you by taking apart the T-valve to clean it and reassembling in the wrong order(ball first, then spring) I feel like a total dumb ass!! I guess dry chrome headers at 4000 rpms is a bad thing. Good luck with your problems.

[brazosriver]

cyclone...I have a 455 olds in my jet and got water in the oil last spring..It ended up being the front plate..They will rust over time and allow water to seep into the oil..I talked to dick miller an oldmobile guru and he said he replaces the front plate on every rebuild on a marine 455. I bought a new plate from him, pulled my old plate off and I could see where water was getting in. Don't know if this is your problem but something you can check....Brazos

[cyclone]

Q-ball- sorry to hear that. Dont feel dumb. My last set of headers were ruined because we installed them and didn't wipe off our greasy hand prints before firing the motor. The result was some permanent hand prints in the chrome. I felt really dumb.

[wsm9808]

I,ve had 6 jet boats over the span of 20years and ran all of them with a ball valve right off the pump with the valve wide open and have never got a drop of water in the oil. And best I remember most of the jets I've seen have come from the builder with just full flow 5/8 hose from the pump to the engine. I think ya'll are really blowing this gate valve thing way out of proportion because there are a bunch of boats out there with no valve at all running just fine.
As far as the milky water goes, I would do a leakdown test on the cylinders and if they check good it is probably the intake gasket leaking into the valley. A lot of olds used a thin imbossed metal gasket for the intake and they are bad about rotting out when used with raw water. And like mentioned above, the front plates can rot also.
[This message has been edited by wsm9808 (edited May 29, 2002).]

[Q-ball]

greasy hand prints huh??? Yep thats the set I bought from you. Just kidding, they looked great before my f--k up! (you hooked me up!) Hey by the way, the valve covers you gave me, did you ever have a problem with oil spraying out of the breathers in the 3000-3500 rpm range. Just wondering. Don't think I'm bitching or anything, I was VERY happy with the parts you sold me. I'm ordering some blu-off harley pipe debluer today, cross your fingers for me.

[cyclone]

I'm confused about this whole gate valve issue now. My boat came from Rogers with the gate valve installed and its all stock. Jack@MPD said the gate valve is fine. Wouldn't running a straight hose to the motor cause it to run ice cold? My valve at 1.5 turns open, has the motor running at 140 degrees.

[cyclone]

no it was actually my first set of bassetts. I bought those rewarders to replace the ones that looked like dookey. Now that you mention it, i think I did have some spray fromt those covers. You might want to change the breathers to a different style and see if that fixes the problem.

[bajaruner]

I have to agree with wsm9808. This whole gate valve thing is way out of hand! Check out your engine, you will find a leak someplace where there should not be one. Also make sure your water dump line is not pinched anyplace and flowing free.

[Erik]

I'm not sure about the water in the motor part of your problem, but if you have water flowing through your headers at 800 RPM there had to be a problem with your bassett T-valve. At 800 RPM there shouldn't be enough water pressure to open the ball check valve in the Bassett T. Either it got stuck open or it was set to open under too low of water pressure.
Maybe someone else could answer this, but it seems that if you have that much water in your headers and a cam with overlap, at a low RPM you have a good chance of getting water in your motor through your exhaust valves.

[cyclone]

that's what i thought too. but then i thought that if I have a leaking head or intake gasket that was letting water into the combustion chamber that the water would come out the exhaust at a low rpm. The weird thing is that if i shut the motor off and waited a few minutes, the exhaust would run dry until the first time i stabbed the gas pedal, after that, the water came out of the exhaust again. I'm tearing the motor down this weekend so hopefully Ill have my answer.

[GlastronGuy]

Originally posted by wsm9808:
As far as the milky water goes, I would do a leakdown test on the cylinders and if they check good it is probably the intake gasket leaking into the valley. A lot of olds used a thin imbossed metal gasket for the intake and they are bad about rotting out when used with raw water. And like mentioned above, the front plates can rot also.
When we first rebuilt our 455 it took 3 outings to get the AL intake manifold to seal up tight. I'd check that and the front plate as others have said. I don't like the gate valve idea but it's been around so long that it must work for some. I found that by restricting the flow of water to the block that we were developing hot spots in the block. I opened the valve all the way and used a nylon tie to keep it open. I then tapped a port in a water jacket in the intake manifold and installed a pressure valve, sort of like a hot water heater valve. Set the valve to 12PSI and no worries. The block gets the full force of the water, eliminating hot spots and helping sand/grit flow thru the block instead of settling in. The excess pressure is routed thru transom.
EDIT
I ment to add that if you are running that metal gasket/valley tray that wsm9808 mentioned, that is most likely your problem.
[This message has been edited by GlastronGuy (edited May 30, 2002).]

[mach1 454]

i had that same prob. with my bbc last weekend at parker. i saw the milky oil coming out of the k&n breathers. it ran fine though, no miss firing. does yours miss fire?
maybe a crack in the cylinder wall. best of luck bro! by the way do you still have that bad ass crew cab dually? i have the same truck on bags and fully shaved with a bright ass yellow and the same front billit grill.later
mach1 454

[Cas]

Brazo's right, the Olds front cover is the first place I'd look. With your valve normally at 1.5 turns open, the added pressure all of a sudden from it being all the way open could have been enough to blow out the cover.
It's also one of the easier things to fix.

[LVjetboy]

Just a few comments,
Gate or ball can work fine...as I posted several times in the "Gate Valve" thread. Most of that thread debated what works best overall and the theory of valve design, and not just what avoids milkshake.
As I also posted, I've used both...no big deal. No milkshakes. More important to a healthy engine is your total cooling system design.
As far as how much inlet valve open is ok, that depends on several things, including your flow restrictions aft of the engine (and yes, hp). Eight turns sounds like full open or nearly there, but how much one valve flows at 1.5 or 8 turns for that matter, is not necessarily what another flows at 1.5 or 8 turns...copy? That depends on threading, valve size and the internal flow design.
And then there's back pressure.
In some cases, with too small a dump line or a valve-restricted dump line, you CAN overpressure your engine with an inlet valve full open...no matter the type, ball, gate or thermonuclear. In other cases with your dump line(s) sized correctly, you CAN safely run the inlet valve full open. This I've also verified with a pressure gage for MY cooling setup.
And of course with high hp engines, which we're probably not talking about here right? some restricted or pressure regulated inlet flow is needed. But we're probably talking neighborhood of 600 hp and higher.
With so many different cooling setups and different line sizes, valve locations...etc. you will naturally see people reporting different results...some good...some not so. Something to consider. Ultimately, the best cooling system is both simple and trouble-free.
Although some condensation in the valve covers may be fine, water in the oil pan is not so good. So the suggestions of checking front cover and head gasket are all good. If that's the problem, a new gasket is way cheaper than engine. And leaky gasket sources will probably put water into the pan quicker than reversion though the exhaust valve.
Finally, water out the header exit at 800 is pretty low. Although some out the elbow drain holes is normal. Consider that excessive coolant pressure can cause both too much header flow and blown gaskets...so doesn't have to be one or the other. And once you do track down and fix the "leak" make sure your pressure's right too so it doesn't happen again.
Best wishes,
jer

[wsm9808]

[This message has been edited by wsm9808 (edited June 02, 2002).]