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DEL51
12-21-2002, 09:03 AM
Well, the job is complete, at least enough for me.The 572 made good power but isn't tuned for max effort.I learned that the carbs were not the best for the application. They ended up with 140 primary and 153 secondary jets.I don't have the dyno sheets yet and I did manage to get some photos but The camera won't record sound.No big deal, i will have sprint man or someone else post them for me.I wound up with 1117 hp @ 6500rpm on pump gas at 29deg total timing.Full advance was in at 2300rpm.18 pulls were made.The pump gas reading was with 11.8 lbs of boost.On race fuel, the engine made 1166 hp with 13.6 lbs of boost.Timing was at 30 deg,tried 35 but it did not respond.Larger jets have been ordered and their absence limited the boost we could run.I really don't need another 50 hp so I think we can wait for a couple years and then make some upgrades.The engine would Idle at 850 rpm on race fuel and a little higher on the pump gas.I don't have the sheets in front of me but the torque and hp band is very broad.I was unable to use the same exhaust header as in the boat, but pretty close,2.5 primary and 4 inch collector.The collector on the boat headers have 4.5 inches.I tried it with the air cleaner and it caused it to richen up a little,which is good, and dropped the horsepower by 27 on the top end.The intermediate circuit was very fat and we changed the bleeds and even tried it with them out.I learned a bit more about dyno tuning and alot more about the carbs.The cam peaks around 62-6500 and the power difference is minimal between the three.It made 1000 horse starting aroung 5600rpm.I will see if I can get the pictures and sheet posted soon.The air fuel ratio was around 12.5 but my egt's are running on the high side.about 1430- 1470 at wot.I was told this could be the result of not enough coolant flow through the engine(iron heads).I was using a csi electric pump, I did not have my water cross flow tube for the inlet. water temp was around 160 and oil temp was at 205.Carbs made for the application would have netted the 1200 hp level.The vacuum pump worked well but I have to get an air bleed valve to regulate it.It registered 14 inches at full power and the man said he wants 10. The right side valve cover was tapped in the rear for this measurement.The air intake charge temp was between 145 and 160 deg,the intake manifold has holes in each runner for mech fuel injection,this is where we probed it. A single inlet on each end was used to feed and exit the cooling water through the superchiller. I was told to try and inprove on this to drop the intake charge temp,any suggestions welcome.water pressure was around 15-20 psi.I could feel the discharge water temp climb as engine load increased.Plugs were ngk 8's gapped at .042 and a crane box with msd coil,wires and distributor.I will continue when the dyno sheets and pic's are posted.

Infomaniac
12-21-2002, 09:19 AM
Man those are great numbers. Do you run the water through the intercooler first? Also if your cam is 114 lobe seperation the exhaust temp will be high. Do you have your cam specs? I would like to see them.
Malke sure when you put it in the boat ir runs up to 6,500 or just a bit more.
Congrats :)

MikeF
12-21-2002, 09:21 AM
Would you like to SuperSize your order?
Yes, oh, and it's to go :D .

Cheyenne 572
12-21-2002, 09:57 AM
That is a good report can't wait for the sheet's and the pic's.Thank's for sharing with us.Later
Cheyenne 572

565edge
12-21-2002, 03:46 PM
del 51, i would like to probe your brain a little bit. my buddy has basically the same motor a blown 588 chevy.we were wondering what your static comp. is, cam specs, what size carbs why such big jets my buddy has two 1150's with 99's and seems to be ok. that is before he got a hold of a lee intercooler and with only 7psi of boost. also with your superchiller what size hose were you using to feed it. have been told if you use dual -12 or -16 inlets it is possible to get manifold temperature down in the low 100's to high 90's, superdave was very antimate about that. i know that is a lot of questions any info would be helpful it looks likle you are making the big power.

DEL51
12-21-2002, 04:26 PM
Thanks for the support,I am fired up.I was just hoping for a little more.I guess that is why it was dynoed to begin with.I looked on the dyno sheet for the cam specs and it said refer to blueprint sheet.So,I asked and was givin the old answer,proprietory info,"Hey, you can tell me"I wont tell anyone", you know the story.He did tell me duration was around 255 deg and 114 separation.I could degree it,but i don't want to piss him off.I cranked the motor over while pre oiling and the lift did not seem too drastic.Valve sizes are 2.25 intake and 1.94 exhaust.Merlin/jenkins 345 cc heads with 125cc chambers,cnc ported.The pistons are from CP and have a slight dish to them.I had these coated with thermal barrier and skirts were givin some slippery shit.I think the comp ration is 7.8 to 1.The intercooler was run separate from the engine cooling water.it had a 1/2 inch inlet and outlet. The outlet was necked down with a hose clamp to provide some back pressure.The out flow was very good.Todd said the Lee intercooler was a better unit than the superchiller.I would think increasing the flow with 2 more lines would work better.I can do some fiddling around and see what will work.Thanks for the input. The carbs, I bought them from holley direct about 5 years ago and had used them on my 468-871 engine.They are model 9377,1150 cfm.Get blower carbs or something with more capacity.These do not have power valves.And one more thing, pulleys,I have only 6 so testing could have been better with a larger selection.60 bottom tooth and 53 top for pump gas,11.8 boost.60 bottom, 50 on top for the race fuel 13.6 boost. I am positive on the pulley count but the second boost number may be a decimal or two off.
[ December 21, 2002, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: DEL51 ]

Unchained
12-21-2002, 04:28 PM
DEL51, Sounds like some great HP numbers you got there. I bet it was big fun watching that engine scream on the dyno. :D

Infomaniac
12-21-2002, 04:51 PM
There is no need to be dissapointed. Dyno numbers are just that, dyno numbers.
How well the boat runs is the deal

DEL51
12-21-2002, 04:51 PM
Hey unchained,it was neat! the Cops stopped by at ten after 10 to tell us to stop for the night. I worked 12 hrs for each day on my regular job and then drove an hour to the shop to begin testing. It was rough, 2-20 hour days back to back wiped me out.His muffler is a 12ft by 12ft concrete/cinderblock shed with a bunch of old tires to dampen the sound. I have some Ideas on how to improve this setup.He is in an industrial park, but has a residential neighborhood surrounding it.How is your project coming along? Are you going to run it in the same boat? I am concerned with the weight of my engine.I have 19ft tunnel, centurion its going in.I may have to play with the engine location.Can you coat the exhaust on the turbo engine?

DEL51
12-21-2002, 05:00 PM
Info, you're right. I just had a 1200 number in my head.I know the torque is what is really important as far as the pump is concerned.I may have more than what I really need.If that is the case I could slow down the blower some.I have to go and get a powerball ticket.I guess you can't win if you don't buy one.

565edge
12-21-2002, 05:16 PM
Thanks for the reply,where did you buy your jets at,i see only up to 100's,are they alchol jets,eliminatya's motor is a 588,his cam is a bullet racing cam on a 114 lc,750 lift,274-282 duration at .050,the heads are dart pro-ones with inconnel exhaust valves,heads are fully ported,je pistons,eagle rods with a lunati crank,we are hoping to see the power that you are making,we were told with the right set up it should make around 1200 hp,He has this in a 21 daytona,He does have the 9377 1150 dominators,his blower is a 8-71,with no intercooler and 7 pounds of boost with me(300 pounds)and him (225) we went 102 mph,we had only 15-20 pounds of intake pressure in the pump and timing was at 26,we are putting his intercooler on and turning boost to around 13 psi,turn his timing to 30,we are making shims for the shoe to get intake presure to 35-40 psi,we are going to put an egt in the exhaust to get it around 1400 degrees,you were talking about motor placement,i have a 19 edge stealth and papp told me to put rear motor plate at 28-30 inches off the transom for a race type set up,what pump are using,sorry for the long post. :)

DEL51
12-21-2002, 06:06 PM
Edge,the jets were drilled out because he did not have the big stuff. I agree with you on the alcohol sizes, he did place an order with holley or comp for some new ones.The Kwanza season has slowed down most of the suppliers, maybe tuesday, I will be getting some slightly larger ones.If those darts are aluminum, you will be better off.I would run a bigger blower if you can.That cam is probably better than the one I'm using, at least for max power but I do have a decent idle.The carbs were rich in the intermediate circuit.The air bleed currently in there is a 76 but I need larger. we removed the bleed jet completely and it worked well.I had a pump built by Don Bowers. It has a stainless AA with cav reducer and ratchet.He did the blueprint job, but i am unsure what's been done.I hope it will stay around 6-6500 rpm max. My engine is forward but I can't measure the distance cause it's in storage. A 21 daytona would be perfect for my engine, but I purchased my centurion for only 6k.Maybe that powerball can come through. 1/120,000,000 chance of winning.I like the looks of my little boat althouh it needs some graphics.Are you going to dyno it? I would think this would be best because of the carbs or see if you can upgrade them.I wonder if holley takes trade ins? I paid 700 a piece for mine back in 97 and that included powder coating and chroming. This was done in house by holley.
[ December 21, 2002, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: DEL51 ]

Infomaniac
12-21-2002, 06:16 PM
Guys,
I am sold on Pro System carbs. They gather all your data and send a carb that works perfectly right away. If you need changes for whatever reason, the will send the airbleeds or jets. For as long as you own the carb.
I had mine built for a single carb B&M blown small block. I then put it on a single carb tunnel ram big block. Pat James told me what changes to make and it was perfect. I am sold.

DEL51
12-21-2002, 06:36 PM
I saw one of their cards sitting on the dyno control station. I think they are out of Michigan??

Infomaniac
12-21-2002, 06:38 PM
Yep here is their Web Site.
Pro Systems Carbs (http://www.pro-system.com/)

DEL51
12-21-2002, 06:47 PM
Edge, check out the link provided by info and givem a call. This would be better than doing what we had done to make the carbs work.I didn't have the money to spend on a new set of carbs.Maybe they could customise your exsisting carbs or make some type of swap.Info, i saved the website,Thanks.

565edge
12-21-2002, 07:22 PM
I had my dominators done by the carb shop,he had his done by jones,i talked to a guy that had the carbs holes inlarged from where the jet goes to the exit,i dont know what area that is called?But he was able to use smaller jets after,i think they called it the main well.thanks for the info,he turns a aggressor A 6300rpm with 7 pounds of boost and no intercooler,we are hoping to turn it around 7000rpm,papp says with this much hp it should do it,your boat will run hard,I have a 565"chevy in mine naturally aspirated 15-1 comp. and it turns a berkely b/c 7300rpm,with some tuning i think it should turn 7500,If your boat is set up right it should do around 120!thanks again.The heads are aluminum,if you want more power i would go with some dart pro-1 cnc ported 355's,thats what i run and out of the box they flowed415cfm at .800 lift,i originally bought the cnc chamber grumpy jenkin world product 345's aluminum heads,out of the box they flowed 306 at .800 lift,i spent $1000 bucks at alan johnson cylinder heads and they only got them to flow 362,i sold them and bought the dart and were very impressed with them,all the heads were flowed by the same person on the same bench,what block are you using?We used the merlin pro-block,the tall deck block weighed 305 pounds (ouch)next time im going to run a dart block,anyways good luck.
[ December 21, 2002, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: 565edge ]

Unchained
12-22-2002, 05:35 AM
Del51, I guess I'm going to send in the deposit to Hi-Tech Performance on a new 19' Edge. I'm going to get a 500lb lake boat hull though and not a race hull. I'm going to use my pump and trailer with the new boat and then sell my JJ Cheyenne.
I was interested to hear that you used 1/2" water lines to and from the intercooler. I have
-8 lines and SD mentioned that the line size should be larger. I figured that I had a line size equal to a garden hose and that would be enough.
The fitting size going in and out of the intercooler core is 1/2" pipe. I hope I won't be limiting the effectiveness of the intercooler. Actually it was never an intercooler in it's former life. It was a pile of used 1/4" aluminum plate and a bus heater core. :D

UBFJ #454
12-22-2002, 06:11 AM
Del51-
We're running a normally aspirated, serious nitrous, 565 motor and are making above 1,275 Hp on VP C-16 alone, with nitrous, as presently setup, above 1,775 (WESTECH dyno). When we complete the nitrous setup we'll be making right around 3,000 Hp.
When you look for Al heads you might want to consider Ray Franks 12 degree Pro-Filer Spreadport heads: Our cc's are under 65 and flow above 500.
Would like to chat with you about your hull and pump setup as your above what I believe the critical Hp level of 1,100 with a tunnel.
Jak

sdba069
12-22-2002, 08:38 AM
Those jet sizes seem way out of proportion.We run a lot of blown stuff with similar carbs and never get anywhere near those jet sizes.I wonder if your high egt's may be the result of an overly rich condition causing fuel to be burned off in the header.

Unchained
12-22-2002, 09:15 AM
sdba069:
Those jet sizes seem way out of proportion.We run a lot of blown stuff with similar carbs and never get anywhere near those jet sizes.I wonder if your high egt's may be the result of an overly rich condition causing fuel to be burned off in the header. Garry, I agree, maybe his timing is a little late which would also cause high EGT.
I ran two off the shelf 850DP holleys with power valves pri + sec and I was running pretty close to stock jet sizes of 80.
It ran good and the plugs read OK. I experimented with larger jets and didn't pick up any RPM so I figured I didn't need it.
As far as carbs, injection or a bucket with hole in the bottom it seems to me that at WOT all that pertains is the air/fuel ratio. Anything in between is just related to drivability. That's why I don't understand claims of "This carb will increase your performance" or "This injector will increase your performance" That would only apply if someone did not have the correct air/fuel ratio to begin with.

565edge
12-22-2002, 12:52 PM
The ray franks are a sweet head,i suggested the darts because they would be a bolt on re-placement,bear are you guys going to use the same boat for the capsule or get a different boat?

UBFJ #454
12-22-2002, 02:01 PM
565 -
Our own new hull & capsule

DEL51
12-25-2002, 11:05 PM
Thanks for the responses and sorry for the late reply. I had to work 3- 12hr days but now have some time to enjoy Christmas.Edge, I am glad you sought out a carb shop deal first.I had someone install the air bleeds but I do not think he had much experience with this type of application.I have to stick with this combo until next year at the earliest.I agree with you and bear on the nice aluminum heads.I would have to get a different intake with a spreadport head and if changing carbs is out of my budget, heads and intake would be way too expensive.I would like to try this engine out at its current power level, maybe drop the boost a little more until I get a good feel for the setup. Unchained, I plan to do some experimenting with the intercooler on and off the engine.I will let you know what I find.Have you talked with superdave013? I think he is switching to a twin turbo setup.Sdba069 I think the mods dscribed by edge are whats needed to run this model(9377) of Dom.We considered your thought about fuel burning in the pipes,maybe,.But we did do a run at 35 deg total and egt temps were no different.The air fuel readings were taken from each collector and were in the 12.5 range. I do believe a richer A/F ratio would drop the temps. Maybe the mods done on edges carb should be done to mine.Edge, if you have their number could post it? Finally, I want you all to know the application for my setup.I do not plan on entering any serious form of drag racing.If this was the case I would have went with a smaller cube engine.I think there is a cubic inch limit of 565? I want to cruise around the local lakes and beat a couple of fast outboards that hang around the same area.They like to begin their races at 60+ MPH and take it to the top. The faster OB's run 108-110mph.I really like the way infomaniac has his alcohol engine setup and that thing isn't even working hard.If I change my setup I probably would go that route, but in a couple of years.Bear, what do you mean about the 1100 hp mark on the tunnel?Is it a safety factor or setup,both.You can e-mail me if you like.Do you run an aluminum block with the nitrous engine?Does it use the efi system that N.O.S. sells? I bet there is some pro mod auto teams that would like to look at the setup. Take care. P.S. I did not win the lottery, somebody from W.V.Oh Well

intimidator
12-27-2002, 06:14 PM
HEY DEL51 PRETTY GOOD LOOKING DYNO NUMBERS THERE. THE GUY I BOUGHT MY CENTURION FROM SAID IT HAD A 2000HP BLOWN ALK.IN IT? IT'S 29'' TRANSOM TO BACK MOTOR PLATE AND 39'' TO THE 5' LONG TANKS. I WOULD LIKE TO MOVE THE MOTOR BACK BUT I ONLY HAVE 4''TO 5''OF FREEBOARD NOW.WATER WAS BREAKING AT THE SEATS, AFTER TRIMMING 2'' OFF OF THE LOADER AND REMOVING THE 4DEG.WEDGE. IT RUNS ALOT DRIER NOW. GOOD LUCK KEEP US POSTED,,,,,,,,