Stereo Amp Inquiry.

[bear down]

I have 8 6x9 Crystal Mobile Sound Speakers in my 220 Eagle, my stereo shop was suppose to install a PPI 4 Channel amp to run these speakers. I specifically asked for PPI because of past experience and quality of the amp. and it's ability to hold constant power. Unfortunantly this past weekend the boat sounded great but I felt not as good as the PPI amps usually do, so I checked out the amp to see if the gains and controls were set right and the amp is not even a PPI. The stereo shop had put the amp in a great location where you can't see is (under the consoles) to prevent and water damage and for it not to get to hot for the summer, but the amp is a off brand and the owner said he made the call to put this amp in the boat because is was a higher wattage amp. I was totally pissed needless to say because I think we've all have seen i.e."Magic Power Amps 10,000 watts" sound really shitty compared to PPI,Orion... 200 watt amps that totally rock because of the quality of the manufacturer. I am taking the boat back next week to get my PPI amp installed, but what should be the minimum wattage that I should have running all of these speakers? Any other Amp recommendations while I still have the chance to make a change? I have a 2 Channel PPI amp that runs my subs which are kick ass so I wanted to keep it the same. Historically the better manufacturers need less watts vs. knock off to power the same speakers due to quality. Please get me as much info. as you can. Thanks
[ April 03, 2003, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: bear down ]

[DickDanger]

Where is Roz and/or HH at? They will have all the answers that you need. -DD Out

[bear down]

Your right!...I should have addressed this post to them.

[77charger]

I am sure roz will see it.Sucks they put a cheaper amp though.

[bear down]

77charger:
I am sure roz will see it.Sucks they put a cheaper amp though. it sure does...I have known this guy for quite a while but I think his intentions were good, but he needed to understand what I said I wanted he needed to give me unless he calls me.

[Havasu Hangin']

Well...I don't know much, but what I do know is that a watt is a watt.
However, it's been my experience that what separates a great amp from a crappy one is wattage claims.
In the old days, PPI was the cream of the crop. We used them in competion systems beacause they were able to pump out more watts at a lower ohm load without self-destructing. Like boating, the competetion guys (and factory cars) influence what the public buys. So PPI got a very good (and well deserved) reputation in car audio. Fosgate, Orion, HiFonics, and a select few were in the same class.
What this means is that anyone can stencil a number on the amp- but the quality ones will actually deliver (without self-destructing). 50 watts of Boss Audio will sound the same as 50 watts of PPI. The difference is that the Boss Audio amp will probably say "150 watts" on the side.
I admire your brand loyalty, but there are others out there...unless you have more money than you know what to do with...
...you Eliminator owners seem to like spending money...

[azsyndicate]

So what is the AMP manufacturer? PPI is actually owned by DEI now. Maybe the guy has some good experiance with the brand he gave you and is helping you out.
He should have told U though. That makes the whole thing seem like he was trying to pull one past you.

[bear down]

So are there any recommendations from anyone on what would be a great amp. for these speakers. I am willing on trying other brands of amps, I just don't mind spending a couple of extra bucks for the name just as long as I know their performance history (i.e. PPI,Alpine,Orion,Fosgate.etc..) Thanks

[Waldo]

In the past I have had good luck with alpine. Also, RMS wattage is the more important # to look at. What wattage are your speakers rated at (RMS)???

[rivercrazy]

JBL Power Series
JL Audio
Phoenix Gold Titanium Series

[77charger]

XTANT.

[jet4fun]

there are really only 2 main things to look for when you get a good amp... #1 make sure its made in the good old USA (although the japanese make great cars and CD players, their amps have never amazed me), #2 make sure the amp has a "regulated power supply" (thats what PPI used to have in the good old days)... this ensures that you will always have the same output wattage no matter what your battery voltage is (this is especially important in a boat because you are usually running the stereo with the engine off)... on an amp with a "non-regulated power supply", even the RMS rating of the amp dropps off significantly as the voltage drops below 14... regulated power supply amps run a little bit more $ but they are well worth it...
bottom line is that your gonna get what you pay for. a good american amp with a regulated power supply will be AT LEAST $1.50 per total RMS wattage (so an amp that puts out a total of about 500 RMS watts should be around $750+)... and like some one said above, make sure when you buy the amp that you look at the RMS wattage, not the Peak wattage...
THIS (http://jlaudio.com/amps/rips.html) should help explain the importance of regulated power supply a little more which is in my opinion the single most important thing to have in a high quality amp...

[Havasu Hangin']

Jet4fun has some good advice...although very few are US made anymore. I like those JL Audio amps, as well...in addition to the above mentioned...Zapco, MMATS are also decent.
PPI amps run hot. A good rule of thumb is that if you can fry an egg on a Fosgate amp, you can cook a steak (medium rare) on a PPI amp.
Remember that when you deal with a shop, they may push was they carry. Asking for a PPI at a shop that isn't a dealer is like buying a Ford from a Chevy dealer.
I'd see if Roz can hook you up on the JL stuff.

[bear down]

Waldo:
In the past I have had good luck with alpine. Also, RMS wattage is the more important # to look at. What wattage are your speakers rated at (RMS)??? The RMS wattage on these speakers are rated at 60 watts with a peak wattage of 120 watts.

[Party Cat]

Havasu Hangin':
PPI amps run hot. A good rule of thumb is that if you can fry an egg on a Fosgate amp, you can cook a steak (medium rare) on a PPI amp.
Hey HH.....does that mean I have a 4 burner BBQ :D :D
[ April 04, 2003, 07:36 AM: Message edited by: Party Cat ]

[1stepcloser]

Havasu Hangin':
...you Eliminator owners seem to like spending money... Thats not very nice (http://www.moviesoundscentral.com/sounds/tombstone/ugly.wav)
As with most pleasures in life, one must spend money to enjoy them.
I know you are familiar with this.
Your love of Eliminators (http://www.moviesoundscentral.com/sounds/pill.wav) continues to flurish :)

[ROZ]

Party Cat:
Havasu Hangin':
PPI amps run hot. A good rule of thumb is that if you can fry an egg on a Fosgate amp, you can cook a steak (medium rare) on a PPI amp.
Hey HH.....does that mean I have a 4 burner BBQ :D :D Yea, I guess you could sit on the pot while flipping your steaks :p :D

[ROZ]

Here is a short list(off the top of my head) of amp make and models that would work with your application. Take your pick....
Xtant X604
JL4504
JL3004 (maybe)
JBL P 80.4
JBL PCX 300.4
Kicker KX6004
Rockford Punch500x
PPI PCX440
DEI 4500
Alpine MRVF540
Alpine MRVF900
PG Tantrum 600.4
PG Titanium 500.4
Zapco REF360
Zapco Studio 204
If you really want to move current, go with 2 large 2 channel amps :cool:
Are you running subwoofers???
Chris
EDIT: Those are all 4 channel amps
[ April 04, 2003, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: ROZ ]

[Frosty_pop]

Watts are not watts..... the cheap amps can claim high wattage due to the way they measure it. The cheap guys will give a peak to peak ready... ie: 100 watts peak to peak is 50 watts RMS. Wattage measured in RMS is the only way to really judge the power output. The other thing to watch is distortion levels. Unless you are one of those punk kids that just want all the noise you can make, and bridge your speakers down to 1/2 ohm ( which sounds like total shit, but is loud) Look at distortion levels. Cheap amps have higher levels = rotten sound.
[ April 04, 2003, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: Frosty_pop ]

[Havasu Hangin']

Frosty_pop:
Watts are not watts..... the cheap amps can claim high wattage due to the way they measure it. The cheap guys will give a peak to peak ready... ie: 100 watts peak to peak is 50 watts RMS. Wattage measured in RMS is the only way to really judge the power output...I beg to differ. A watt is a watt.
Please re-read my post....it's the claims that are what differenciates the good amp from the cheap stuff. I think we said the same thing.
For example, if you have a Boss Audio amp that is bench tested to put out 50 watts at 13.3v...and an Orion amp that puts out the same 50 watts at 13.3v...which amp will be louder? Which amp will sound better? They will sound the same.
Yes, Root Mean Squared is a good benchmark, but it is not the end-all benchmark. For example, do you know how the RMS measurement was taken? A sine wave? What voltage? Different manufacturers measure RMS under different conditions. The only way to truely measure an amps output and compare apples to apples is to bench test each one under similar conditions. Since we can't do that, we have to rely on the marketing folks at the manufacturers to not inflate the wattage claims.
Also every amp is capable of big numbers. A swap meet amp can say 10,000 watts on the heat sink. Can it produce 10,000 watts? Sure...if lightning strikes it. So technically, they are not lying.
Since amplification is nothing more than math (watts = volts x amps/efficiency), it's pretty easy to see what the real world is.
So...a watt is a watt...
...but not all marketing departments are created equal.
[ April 04, 2003, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: Havasu Hangin' ]

[rivercrazy]

HH is right. A clean watt is a clean watt is a clean watt. you will never be able to hear the difference in SQ.
It just all boils down to how hot the amp will run and how reliable it will be.
You can purchase a $1500 amp that puts out a few hundred RMS watts. Or you can buy a amp for $200-250 for an amp that puts out the same power and just as RELIABLE.
Bottom line boils down to marketing. I hate to say it but most of the Asian made amps are better quality than those made in the USA. Its way cheaper to MFG them in Asia. That lets them use higher quality components at a lesser price. Its almost impossible for a USA made amp to compete in the market.....
AND even though and amp says they are made in the USA, they are about 95% foreign component and assembled in the USA, Canada, or Mexico and claim to be Mfg in the good ole USA....
Sad but true.

[ROZ]

Yea, what they said.... :D
HH - Schoolin the newbies..... wink
It's kinda funny that the watt vs watt subject should come up over here. It's been discussed in the 12V audio forums as well. Something about Richard Clark conducting a test between 3 different amps. Comclusion is, a watt is a watt. (But we knew that) And that a upper high end amp vs a low end amp sounded almost the same at normal listening levels. Argument is that you could buy a cheap amp and a good processor for less money than a top of the line amp with a built in processor and likley sound just as good if not better...SQ at normal listening levels.... You pay for features, quality, engineering, and the brand.
P.S. Equiptment is only 1/3 the battle. Every aspect of installation is the other 2/3.
[ April 04, 2003, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: ROZ ]

[bear down]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ROZ:
[QB] Here is a short list(off the top of my head) of amp make and models that would work with your application. Take your pick....
If you really want to move current, go with 2 large 2 channel amps :cool:
Are you running subwoofers???
Chris
Yes I am Running to Kicker Comp. Subs and powered buy a 2 channel PPI amp. My thoughts were to keep the same manufacturer of amps consistent. But I think I will move to another name. He used an MA Audio amp on my boat (never heard of that name)Here are the spec's on that amp.
MA Audio HK-597 :
Amplifiers-HK AB Series
800 WATT FOUR CHANNEL
Thermal, Short & Overload Protection Circuitry
Platinum Plated Screw Type RCA Jacks
Double Sided Black Epoxy PCB Board
Variable High Pass & Low Pass Filters
Platinum Plated Block Terminals
Fully Regulated Power Supply
Stainless Steel Finish Heat sink
0-18dB Variable Bass Boost
Quiet Fan Cooling System
Full Mosfet Circuitry
2 Ohm Stereo Stable
THD: <0.05%
Signal to Noise: >90dB
4 x 200W RMS @ 4 Ohm Stereo
4 x 400W RMS @ 2 Ohm Stereo
2 x 400W RMS @ 4 Ohm Mono
Would you say this would still under power the 8 6x9 Crytal Mobile Sound speakers? Am I expecting too much sound from a boat?
After seeing this info. on the amp, maybe I should look into getting another amp(the same brand) What do you think Roz?

[rivercrazy]

Bear Down. You might consider powering your subs with a class D sub amp. They are more efficient driving subs because they only amplify the lower frequencies (they will pull less current than an a A/B class amp).
Maybe drive your comps with your PPI 2 channel amp and one more two channel amp.
Just a thought....

[bear down]

rivercrazy:
Bear Down. You might consider powering your subs with a class D sub amp. They are more efficient driving subs because they only amplify the lower frequencies (they will pull less current than an a A/B class amp).
Maybe drive your comps with your PPI 2 channel amp and one more two channel amp.
Just a thought.... That does sound like a great idea. I think I might do that. I just want to figure all of this out by next week because I will be storing my boat in Havasu for the summer and I don't want to bring it down just for the stereo any more. One more question. Would there be a problem installing a 6 disc sony cd change in the engine compartment on the firewall on the far end of the wall? Would the engine heat destroy the changer or the vibration from the engine cause it to skip (496mag)? Thanks

[Havasu Hangin']

What size is the PPI? I'd be carefull running that PPI 1 ohm stereo (4-4ohm speakers wired in parallel). Medium well, please.
RC is right with the class D amp- less heat and less current for the same watts as a class a/b.
According to the specs, those speakers should be gettin' around 100 watts each- it should be enough to be pretty loud in a 22' boat. Where are they installed?
Do you have any crossovers?

[bear down]

Havasu Hangin':
What size is the PPI? I'd be carefull running that PPI 1 ohm stereo (4-4ohm speakers wired in parallel). Medium well, please.
RC is right with the class D amp- less heat and less current for the same watts as a class a/b.
According to the specs, those speakers should be gettin' around 100 watts each- it should be enough to be pretty loud in a 22' boat. Where are they installed?
Do you have any crossovers? This is where the sound quality is of an issue. This is the speaker layout. 4 6x9 speakers on the wall below the rear seat, 2 6x9 speakers knee level on the driver and passagenger side of the boat, 2 6x9 speakers in the bow on the wall below the storage compartment of the seats(does that make sense) by the floor. No I don't have any crossovers and I was thinking of putting a simple EQ for better SQ.
On the subs, I can't recall the Model # of Amp, it's an older PPI amp that I purchased in 2000 for my subs in my car. It's a 2 channel 200 watt Amp. which is ran at 4 ohm. Never have had a problem with this amp and hits hard with the 2 12" subs.

[Havasu Hangin']

bear down:
This is where the sound quality is of an issue. This is the speaker layout. 4 6x9 speakers on the wall below the rear seat, 2 6x9 speakers knee level on the driver and passagenger side of the boat, 2 6x9 speakers in the bow on the wall below the storage compartment of the seats(does that make sense) by the floor. No I don't have any crossovers and I was thinking of putting a simple EQ for better SQ.Well...I think you are talking about the pedestals of the rear and bow seats?
Since those speakers are directional, ideally, they need to be as high as possible....but there are plenty of boats out there with your setup. I usually put the subs in the pedestal, then put the speakers up as high as possible in the panels....but that's me.
bear down:
On the subs, I can't recall the Model # of Amp, it's an older PPI amp that I purchased in 2000 for my subs in my car. It's a 2 channel 200 watt Amp. which is ran at 4 ohm. Never have had a problem with this amp and hits hard with the 2 12" subs. 4 ohm stereo? Class a/b?
If so (and since I'm spending your money), I'd buy a class d for the subs, another PPI for the components, and go with a 3 amp setup (like Roz suggested earlier). Since that guy owes you another PPI, all you'd have to buy is the class d.
BTW, I'd only mount the changer in the engine compartment only as a last resort. Although the impact of hitting wakes is lessened near the stern, the engine compartment is the hottest, most humid part of the boat- audio equipment generally doesn't mix well with heat and humidity.
As for the EQ, I think it's a great idea. A passive 9 band with a sub out and volume knob would go a long way for around $100. I'm always preachin' to these guys about EQ's...
...but who listens to me, anyway?

[bear down]

Havasu Hangin':
bear down:
This is where the sound quality is of an issue. This is the speaker layout. 4 6x9 speakers on the wall below the rear seat, 2 6x9 speakers knee level on the driver and passagenger side of the boat, 2 6x9 speakers in the bow on the wall below the storage compartment of the seats(does that make sense) by the floor. No I don't have any crossovers and I was thinking of putting a simple EQ for better SQ.Well...I think you are talking about the pedestals of the rear and bow seats?
Since those speakers are directional, ideally, they need to be as high as possible....but there are plenty of boats out there with your setup. I usually put the subs in the pedestal, then put the speakers up as high as possible in the panels....but that's me.
bear down:
On the subs, I can't recall the Model # of Amp, it's an older PPI amp that I purchased in 2000 for my subs in my car. It's a 2 channel 200 watt Amp. which is ran at 4 ohm. Never have had a problem with this amp and hits hard with the 2 12" subs. 4 ohm stereo? Class a/b?
If so (and since I'm spending your money), I'd buy a class d for the subs, another PPI for the components, and go with a 3 amp setup (like Roz suggested earlier). Since that guy owes you another PPI, all you'd have to buy is the class d.
BTW, I'd only mount the changer in the engine compartment only as a last resort. Although the impact of hitting wakes is lessened near the stern, the engine compartment is the hottest, most humid part of the boat- audio equipment generally doesn't mix well with heat and humidity.
As for the EQ, I think it's a great idea. A passive 9 band with a sub out and volume knob would go a long way for around $100. I'm always preachin' to these guys about EQ's...
...but who listens to me, anyway? In my 220 Eagle I have place my subs in the console area of the boat in boxes, which is I think they hit so hard. I don't have them installed in any part of the boat. The way the boat is designed it's impossible(not really) to install the 6x9's very high due to space limitations and visual appearance. I just figured put so much power that some of the sound would eventually escape from the boat. As for the Amps set up, this is what I am getting from you.
Existing PPI Amp (run 1 set of 6x9 speakers)since it's a 2 channel
Existing MA Audio Amp (run rest of 6x9) (6 speakers) Speakers
Purchase 1 more Amp Class D for my Subs. (what RMS Wattage should I get.)
Thanks for the suggestion on the CD Changer, I have it currently installed under the passenger seat but the bass really makes it skip, It's a Sony so I might go with Alpine(I think their CD Changers skip less of all other changers)If I can't put in the engine compartment. and I will get the EQ, I've have always been an advocate of those little things.

[Havasu Hangin']

bear down:
As for the Amps set up, this is what I am getting from you.
Existing PPI Amp (run 1 set of 6x9 speakers)since it's a 2 channel
Existing MA Audio Amp (run rest of 6x9) (6 speakers) SpeakersClose..I'd run:
Existing PPI- 4- 6x9's (2 ohm stereo load)
New PPI- 4- 6x9's (2 ohm stereo load)
New Class D- For the subs (2 ohm mono load)
For the sub amp, it'll depend on your subs. I run the JBL amps- with JBL, you could have over 600 watts per sub for under $300. However, that may be a little overkill.
[ April 05, 2003, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: Havasu Hangin' ]

[bear down]

Havasu Hangin':
bear down:
As for the Amps set up, this is what I am getting from you.
Existing PPI Amp (run 1 set of 6x9 speakers)since it's a 2 channel
Existing MA Audio Amp (run rest of 6x9) (6 speakers) SpeakersClose..I'd run:
Existing PPI- 4- 6x9's (2 ohm stereo load)
New PPI- 4- 6x9's (2 ohm stereo load)
New Class D- For the subs (2 ohm mono load)
For the sub amp, it'll depend on your subs. I run the JBL amps- with JBL, you could have over 600 watts per sub for under $300. However, that may be a little overkill. So your suggesting that I trade in the MA Audio 4 Channel Amp? for a PPI Could you clarify how many channels per amp. Thanks

[Havasu Hangin']

bear down:
So your suggesting that I trade in the MA Audio 4 Channel Amp? for a PPI Could you clarify how many channels per amp. Thanks Yep...doesn't he owe you a PPI?
Essencially, you are splitting one 4 channel amp (MA Audio) into 2-2 channel amps...so get another 2 channel PPI.
4 channels are OK, but they have some limits on what they can do. Like Roz mentioned, you would be hard pressed to find a 4 channel that can keep up with 2 (big) 2 channels...

[ROZ]

It looks to me like Bear Down is going to run his current(pardon the pun) 2 channel PPi amp to 2 pair of speakers, run the new 2 channel PPi that the shop owner owes him to the other 2 pair of speakers, purchase a 500watt class D mono amp(PPi or not) that will power his subs, and last but not least, buying that 6 channel passive 9 band eq w/ volume control. Bear down, you're gonna have a sweet system. :D
BTW, Since your buddy at the stereo shop took advantage of you, pressure him to rewire the power distribution for free. Since you're going to run 3 amps, your power and ground runs will have to change. :)
Now about your batteries......j/k wink
Good Luck!
[ April 05, 2003, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: ROZ ]

[bear down]

ROZ:
It looks to me like Bear Down is going to run his current(pardon the pun) 2 channel PPi amp to 2 pair of speakers, run the new 2 channel PPi that the shop owner owes him to the other 2 pair of speakers, purchase a 500watt class D mono amp(PPi or not) that will power his subs, and last but not least, buying that 6 channel passive 9 band eq w/ volume control. Bear down, you're gonna have a sweet system. :D
BTW, Since your buddy at the stereo shop took advantage of you, pressure him to rewire the power distribution for free. Since you're going to run 3 amps, your power and ground runs will have to change. :)
Now about your batteries......j/k wink
Good Luck! O.K things are much more clarified now. I will turn in the 800 watt 4 channel MA Audio Amp for the PPI 2 Channel Amp. that I had originally Requested and run 4 6x9 speakers on that new amp, I will use my 2 channel PPI existing Amp that I use for my Subs for my other 4 6x9 speakers and I will purchase a brand new class D 500 Watt amp (no specific label) for my subs and a brand new eq. for my stereo. Do you think my amp might run a bit hot due to running 4 speakers on a 2 channel amp? I currently own a Alpine EG-360 Digital EQ. that I ran in my car a couple of years back. The only reason that I purchased the Sony system was because I was going to get a remote on the transom on the boat when I am beached at the sandbar but for some reason that fell through and my buddy could not get me the remote in time. Should I take out my sony head unit and changer and replace it with alpine or should I stick with what I have and purchase and additional EQ (non digital)? Thanks for all of your help and I will let you know how it goes.
P.S. What should I do about the CD Changer, should I change it to an Alpine or stick it out with the Sony 6 disc changer.
[ April 06, 2003, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: bear down ]

[Havasu Hangin']

bear down:
Do you think my amp might run a bit hot due to running 4 speakers on a 2 channel amp?It'll run warm...sunny side up, please.
2 pairs of 4ohm speakers equals a 2 ohm stereo load which it was designed for. However, if your amps aren't where they get good air circulation, you should install some fans to blow air over them- it'll be the best $20 you ever spent (besides the $100 for the EQ).
Also, don't forget to make sure your power & ground wires are sufficient for the new current draw, or you may be toasting marshmellows...
...and I don't mean around a campfire.
[ April 06, 2003, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: Havasu Hangin' ]

[bear down]

Havasu Hangin':
bear down:
Do you think my amp might run a bit hot due to running 4 speakers on a 2 channel amp?It'll run warm...sunny side up, please.
2 pairs of 4ohm speakers equals a 2 ohm stereo load which it was designed for. However, if your amps aren't where they get good air circulation, you should install some fans to blow air over them- it'll be the best $20 you ever spent (besides the $100 for the EQ).
Also, don't forget to make sure your power & ground wires are sufficient for the new current draw, or you may be toasting marshmellows...
...and I don't mean around a campfire. What makes the power and ground wires non sufficient (i.e. not the right gauge?)

[Havasu Hangin']

bear down:
What makes the power and ground wires non sufficient (i.e. not the right gauge?) Yep. Just make sure that the wire and hardware (dist blocks, fuses, etc) are up to the task for the new (potentially larger) current draw...

[77charger]

Havasu Hangin'
[ However, if your amps aren't where they get good air circulation, you should install some fans to blow air over them- it'll be the best $20 you ever spent (besides the $100 for the EQ).
[/QB]A sony 630 head unit alreay has a built in eq.I just have to learn how to use all this new hi tech stuff i got in my checkers(what havasu hangin calls my brand of boat) :D :D

[bear down]

This is what my buddy is going to do with My set up. He is going to get me a PPI 4 channel amp but will upgrade it from the PCX-440 to the PCX-480 with the built in fan, upgrade my cd changer with a 12 second skip disc memory function and throw in a EQ for my troubles. I think this will make the system sound pretty damn good with the speakers I have. Thanks to all for all of your input.

[ROZ]

I'm glad you went back to get the situation straightened out. Remember to have him still add a fan to the sub amp.....Just to stay on the safe...errr cool side. Let us know how it sounds!!!