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HighRoller
01-10-2003, 03:33 PM
I was crackin up reading the column in Hot Boat where they finally admitted they don't have the balls to ever bad mouth a boat for fear of going out of business.Then they try to justify it!!!On one hand I give them props for admitting it,but it doesn't change the fact that by sucking up to the manufacturers they compromise everyone's safety and satisfaction.They say they give the manufacturer a chance to retest,so of course the company will fix that ONE boat to get a good test then continue on as usual building junk!My other bitch is that they pretty much slapped us in the face by saying our subscription revenue doesn't add up to a fart in a tornado.Hell,if that's the case,and if all the big money is in advertising why don't they just make it free or a buck per copy.They won't lose that much money right?I came close to subscribing but after I sobered up I decided not to.Why pay for what they write when I can get a pamphlet from the boat company for free and see the same thing!! argue

miller19j
01-10-2003, 03:39 PM
I subscribed because of these boards. But when the whole moderator thing happened there was a comment that they don’t make any money from these boards. I thought to myself what about all the people like myself that have subscribed because of the boards and all the advertising on the boards? I don’t think I will be renewing my subscription apparently subscribers are not important to them. Just my 2 cents

HCS
01-10-2003, 03:44 PM
I might believe the subscribtion part, there's other magazines I subscribe to, when you get your renewal they offer the issues at half price or even better to keep you hooked. They can't be making a whole bunch of money just off the issues.

miller19j
01-10-2003, 03:47 PM
HARDCORE-SKI:
I might believe the subscribtion part, there's other magazines I subscribe to, when you get your renewal they offer the issues at half price or even better to keep you hooked. They can't be making a whole bunch of money just off the issues. That’s true. But if no one subscribes the advertisers wont put any ads in.

HCS
01-10-2003, 04:06 PM
There's so many magazines out there I don't know how half of them survive.

77charger
01-10-2003, 04:23 PM
I would hate to suscribe but rather be able to go to a newsstand and by on a per issue basis.Since my interest is in the 22 and smaller boats or technical articles.To me its more like a powerboat mag.

Wet Dream
01-10-2003, 04:28 PM
You have to remember that you are paying what...$25 or so a year for a subscription? Compare that to about $5-$6 an issue at the store...you are getting a hell of a deal. So they aren't making alot off of the subscribers compared to the store sales. And they are making a kiiling on the advertisements you see throughout. ***boat seems to be geared toward the person that is thinking about a boat, sees the cover and reads up on a few tests. How many "build-up" projects does HB cover like "OffRoad" does?

RiverToysJas
01-10-2003, 05:13 PM
Well said High Roller, I think you should sent that to Kevin as a letter to the editor. Perhaps they'll print it! wink
RTJas :D

77charger
01-10-2003, 05:16 PM
Wet Dream:
You have to remember that you are paying what...$25 or so a year for a subscription? Compare that to about $5-$6 an issue at the store...you are getting a hell of a deal. So they aren't making alot off of the subscribers compared to the store sales. And they are making a kiiling on the advertisements you see throughout. ***boat seems to be geared toward the person that is thinking about a boat, sees the cover and reads up on a few tests. How many "build-up" projects does HB cover like "OffRoad" does? How is it that other mags can offer suscriptions for 1/2 of what ***boat does?If it was cheaper id be more likely to suscribe i currently suscribe to a few mags in other interest i have.off road is one of them too :)

***boat
01-10-2003, 05:24 PM
I will show this stuff to Kevin on Monday and see what they think. When I see input like this on the boards I do forward it or take it to Kevin in person when I can.

Dribble
01-10-2003, 06:01 PM
It's time for the magazine to get some balls. If a boat is a piece of shit, then tell it like it is. Dirt Bike and Motocross Action pissed off plenty of motorcycle manufacturers in their day, but they still held their feet to the fire. If they hadn't trashed the junk bikes in the reviews they wrote, the bikes would not be as good as they are today.
Here's a concept. How about testing some boats from some builders without the huge advertising budgets, IE. Caliber 1, Cheetah, Renagade, etc. Do they want to inform their readers about the hobby or are they just a mouthpiece for their advertisers. We already know how good the Ultras, Eliminators, Essex' etc. are. They have been telling us every month for years. Usually right next to a full page ad.
Come on Hot Boat, raise the bar, become real
marine journalists.
[ January 10, 2003, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: Dribble ]

TRG
01-10-2003, 06:28 PM
I personally think that the mag. should keep on with what they are doin' but split the thing right down the middle with a custom mag for all the 21's and under, seeing how all of the resto projects are with the smaller boats after all it is called "HOT fricken BOAT" magazine!! I see nothing "HOT" about a 31'boat running the middle of Havasu at 100mph, but put a 18'flat or jet doin' the same.... now thats something to talk(write/read) about.I cant tell you how many times ive waited to see the next issue and maybe a "REAL" hot boat or two inside, but only to my disgust found the test of the new 27' from Eliminator, i think you know were im going with this,i think 80% of the peop's who buy the mag are probably like myself and can barely afford to put the gas in their boats let alone buy a 100,000$ boat, or read about it! ooh! the sand is "HOT" tonight!p.s. I feelbetter now. burningm

TRG
01-10-2003, 06:31 PM
can i get a "HELL YA"?

spectratoad
01-10-2003, 07:00 PM
I do believe that the magazines do not count on sub's to pay their bills. As in most print material the $$$$ are in the ads. I do think though thatthey do have an obligation to the readers to give a true synopsis of what a piece of equipment really can do. I thought that is what the manufacturers went to the mags for. "hey everyone, we have a hot new boat you should buy it" If it is a piece of s&%t then the mag should say so.
I don't subscribe because I get all the info I need here because the mag only seems to cover new 30' or larger boats that have a minimum price tag of 40K. I agree with 77charger. I buy at the newstand so I can see if there is anything in the mag that interests me. Just my longwinded :D .02.

NEW 2 RIVER
01-10-2003, 07:11 PM
I can relate big time to this.I wait all month for HOT BOAT to arrive and when it arrives all I find is stuff for 100 grand plus and now they seem to be following powerboat magazines racing basis.Last time we had a thread like this HOT BOAT
came in responded and gave me a little hope but this last article is pretty sad(Hey folks we dont have the balls to print the truth.were a brochure not a magazine)I can respect the fact that the boat Mfgs only bring there best stuff to test but just like me I am sure the testers get in the boat and say what a p.o.s. But dont print that.Tell our readers the hole shot is strong
blah blah blah

jetaddict
01-10-2003, 07:15 PM
HELL YEAH!!
That's what I'm talking about,lots of resto'd jets!!!!! I will subscribe then.Jets rule. :D

RiverToysJas
01-10-2003, 07:17 PM
Here's a little Hot Boat article I like to read now and then...... Team Hawaiian 24 Euro (http://free.***boat.net/tests/docs/Team_Hawaiian_24_Euro_297.htm)
You guys should get a kick out of this aricle. From a time they were a little more willing to tell it like it is.
BTW, it's my understanding that the builder sued Hot Boat over this article and has not brought a boat to be test since.
RTJas :D
[ January 10, 2003, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: RiverToysJas ]

GlastronGuy
01-10-2003, 07:36 PM
Hot Boat has a magazine?

77charger
01-10-2003, 08:30 PM
what gets me is that a few months ago they were slamming a boat in the edetorials but wouldnt name it!I wonder if they told the manufacturer to pay up or they will name the boat soon!

RiverToysJas
01-10-2003, 08:50 PM
77charger:
what gets me is that a few months ago they were slamming a boat in the edetorials but wouldnt name it!I wonder if they told the manufacturer to pay up or they will name the boat soon! It was Lavey Craft and they did a follow up to that already. They named the manufacturer and they said the problems were corrected.
RTJas :D

Seadog
01-10-2003, 09:06 PM
Sorry guys, but I think you get a grip on reality. While it is a fine balance between subscriptions and ads in making the profits, they are both critical. It is like college tuition, they charge the students as much as possible, but the bulk of the money comes from the state and other sources. Even then, there are rough years financially.
Yes, they have to tread a thin line with the builders. It is one thing to slam a $3k bike that they can afford to go out buy to test. How many $100k boats do you think they can afford to buy? And since most of these boats have a long lead time, you better have the builder cooperate.
As for the articles and high dollar boats, how many people that buy This Old House or MS's Living can actually live in houses like that? I can bet tHB is constantly reviewing their content to determine ways to improve their appeal. HB is a niche magazine and has to cater to that niche.

HighRoller
01-10-2003, 09:10 PM
I'm glad to see once again I was able to stir the pot a little.I'm disappointed at Hot Boat's lack of faith in the boating industry.They're like Jack Nicholson.."you want the truth??You can't HANDLE the truth!!"Well,why don't they try it and see?HB is the only magazine of its type so what are they afraid of?That DCB is gonna yank their ad and put in in"Trailer Boats"magazine instead?I don't think so.After the first few black eyes the companies will realize what's going on and in the end we'll all win.I think the solution to the problem is to have some real boaters on the test panel and to solicit their comments.After all,most boaters have slightly less experience than the guys who do the HB tests,and would be a better guage of how drivable a boat was.I think boat companies would love to get real boaters comments on their boats.

hd&boatrider
01-10-2003, 09:45 PM
Just read the article Jason and yes it would be nice if they got back to being honest about the evaluations. Too much money involved and that corrupts everything.

NEW 2 RIVER
01-10-2003, 09:54 PM
Hey ***boat rather than skirt the issue and trying to avoid the fact that you are indeed tainted with advertising dollars when it comes to boat reviews why not come out and answer the question.why dont you review any of the boat companys that dont advertise in your magazine? :confused:

NEW 2 RIVER
01-10-2003, 09:59 PM
Btw I am a firm beleiver that when I tear something or someone down I acknowledge there better points.
Hot Boat you have one hell of a website and have set a internet standard that I dont beleive can be met by most larger corporations out there.when all the (***boat.net was down for 2days) heat blows over give yourself and your internet crew a pat on the back for a job well done.Regardless of what changes your magazine may or may not see I am sure Myself and many others will still continue to visit your site.

twistedpair
01-11-2003, 10:07 AM
Maybe they should switch to more of a 'blind test'. Rather than have Mfg's bring specially prepped boats to test, why not solicit test boats from recent buyers. How many guys would'nt jump at the chance to have their boat featured in a magazine?
I mean yeah, 144 mph eliminators are cool, but lets see what one will do with a more 'real world' package like stock 496 power.

Seadog
01-11-2003, 12:55 PM
Can you imagine how a new buyer would feel if he got slam about faults with his new boat? I do think that there is a potential for improvement, but what would work best is to have HB do a customer survey once each year. Not just on the first year owners, but also on those who own boats several years. Give awards for levels of customer satisfaction. The manufacturers would have to give out owner lists, but if HB lets them put a logo on ads, they would have the incentive. Food for thought. idea

1stepcloser
01-11-2003, 02:12 PM
twistedpair:
Lets see what one will do with a more 'real world' package like stock 496 power. It would seem that was what happened with the article (http://free.***boat.net/tests/docs/Team_Hawaiian_24_Euro_297.htm) that Jas posted earlier. The boat was a turd with stock power, and HB said so. No manufacturer wants that kind of press. Thats the primary reason they bring the baddest shit in the stable out to play.
And, correct me if I'm wrong here, but arent the boats that are brought to the test's built for an owner? I was under the impression that these boats had been built for someone, and that the new owners had given permission for the testing. Same thing as the boat show boats.
twistedpair:
Eliminators are cool!I agree. :D

Carnival of Souls
01-11-2003, 04:16 PM
I subscribe to Hot Boat, and I make A six figure salary, BUT for the most part the mag is A wish book. I wish I could afford half the boats they profile, but I live in the real world. My favorite was the sept. 2001 issue of entry level boats.
For those that haven't read it, they profiled A HTM SR24 that would run 100+mph at A price of 75k. I don't know about you ,but I don't think too many first time buyers are in the market for that kind of ride. If they are, I don't think I want to be on the lake the first few times they get it on the water (or the beach, which ever comes first)!!!
Just my 2 penny's

Seadog
01-11-2003, 04:49 PM
There are plenty of idiots with money out tthere. An ole boy bought a hot Formula with the three big blocks a few years ago. First run out on Grand, tried a turn at speed. A six figure anchor. A year later he was out with a bigger, badder, more expensive toy and he still hasn't got a clue. jawdrop

JetBoatRich
01-11-2003, 05:40 PM
twistedpair:
Maybe they should switch to more of a 'blind test'. Rather than have Mfg's bring specially prepped boats to test, why not solicit test boats from recent buyers. How many guys would'nt jump at the chance to have their boat featured in a magazine?
I mean yeah, 144 mph eliminators are cool, but lets see what one will do with a more 'real world' package like stock 496 power. I agree, they should do this.
:)
But fun would that be? wink

***boat
01-11-2003, 09:10 PM
Any one else now is your chance to get some input in. I will take this stuff to Hot Boat on Monday. If you have something you do not want to post here mail it to me at webmaster@***boat.net.

twistedpair
01-11-2003, 09:17 PM
Seadog:
Can you imagine how a new buyer would feel if he got slam about faults with his new boat? I do think that there is a potential for improvement, but what would work best is to have HB do a customer survey once each year. Not just on the first year owners, but also on those who own boats several years. Give awards for levels of customer satisfaction. The manufacturers would have to give out owner lists, but if HB lets them put a logo on ads, they would have the incentive. Food for thought. idea That could work. I'm just saying, if I'm in the market for a 'vette, I want to read tests about a 'vette. Don't show me a Lingenfelter, while they're completely cool, it's not a fair representation of the product.

jet4fun
01-11-2003, 09:17 PM
***boat:
Any one else now is your chance to get some input in. I will take this stuff to Hot Boat on Monday. If you have something you do not want to post here mail it to me at webmaster@***boat.net. yeah, i got something. i still havent received my january issue. this is the 5th time this has happened in less than 2 years. one time i didnt get an issue for 3 months in a row. not too happy at this point, my buddy keeps tormenting me with stuff about the new issue since he has it.

MAXIMUS
01-11-2003, 09:56 PM
In truth I'm about ready to cancell my subscription. I am really tired of looking at new boat evaluations over & over again. It would be nice to have a magazine with a more realistic level of boats & articles. Show more "custom" rides... not factory massed produced $100,000.00 boats that most people don't want anything to do with. Every time there is a good featured boat of the month, the article is a half page & the pictures of the boat (if more than 1) are blocked by chicks in g's or just don't show off the piece! I like detail in articles... not b.s.
I have seen better boats among the forums & had better information than the magazine has every produced! Its all about money... always has been & always will be! cry
P.S. I love chicks in g's however if that is what I'm looking for then I'll go to hustler for a better selection! :)

Infomaniac
01-11-2003, 10:19 PM
***boat:
Any one else now is your chance to get some input in. I will take this stuff to Hot Boat on Monday. If you have something you do not want to post here mail it to me at webmaster@***boat.net. Hope they do not kill the messenger.
Maximus; Hot Boat of the month is not hard to do. The main consideration is the photography. If you notice it is not always the baddest or nicest boat. Get someone that can take transparency negatives and send it in. A few girls in the shot does not hurt.

77charger
01-11-2003, 10:35 PM
My final thought on this thing is this.I am interested in seeing more boats that are real world not a dream ride that you will never have a chance of owning.I would like to see a real test evaluation not a money bought write up!.Also more technical and owner project build ups not someone who buys a boat then sends the boat to a repitable builder who does EVERTHING then sends back to the custumer all finished.I have more respect for a person who does most of this stuff himself.(i know there are things that have to be sent out).
By reading these forums it seems like the ones who really have an interest in there own boats are the jet forum and v drive guys(the real ***boats IMO).
About 8 years ago i read my first ***boat mag and thought how cool a magazine dedicated to a river-lake boat interest and remember seing powerboat magazine which covered the bigger boats back theni use to buy the mag as it was readily availible at the market and if not i would go out of my way to find it now i have no interest!
I have moved on to a I/O and those forums are dead but i myself enjoy working on my own motor and boat.Until then i will stick to these forums(which are very helpful and covers all bases equally)rather than buying another hot boat mag.

Froggystyle
01-11-2003, 11:05 PM
My major, and most serious beef is in the near-complete lack of distribution. I have been a subscriber for years, but several different issues, namely the one my boat was in and one that I drew that made the cover inspired me to want to A)buy a couple of extras, and B) tell my freinds to buy it and check it out. Not one freind I have ever turned on to Hot Boat has been able to find it in either a news-stand or market, and I have searched high and low in the San Diego and San Francisco markets for it to no avail. Not at bookstores, nowhere.
Distribution would seem to equal profit. The greater the distribution, the greater the demand for ad space. I don't get it...

LVjetboy
01-12-2003, 02:29 AM
Strange how this theme posted over and over like moon cycles? Is there a trend?
HBM Content (http://free.***boat.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=001727#000000)
77Charger's post right on.
The kick I got from Bob Brown's article, HBM Jan 03, p22, second para...referred to in the first post...was the phrase, "Enough of this political correctness."
Perhaps the most disingenuous statement in the entire article.
Since when is demanding the truth and balls in speaking your thoughts (good or bad) termed, "Political Correctness!??"
Did anyone else think bogus?
Excuse me but P.C.'s a term for hiding your thoughts and not speaking your mind so as not to offend anyone with a different pov. A "sort of growing hesitancy on the part of publishers, including text-book editors, to produce materials that might be offensive to minority groups"...ie boat manufacturers that don't perform? Be it politically or materially motivated, whatever. Political Correctness has never stood for speaking your mind...I'm sorry.
As for HB admitting it? Yea, they admit money's the bottom line. They admit subscribers have little say. In fact, even if the majority of subscribers want to read about smaller hot boats, HBM looks to advertisers for guidance and trends, not us. So how do they get away with that?
Because they have little to no magazine competition. Bottom line.
jer

Craig
01-12-2003, 07:27 AM
OK, my thoughts on this again :D For years Kachina advertized in the magazine. You always saw articles on them. Actually they didn't give the 22 La Bala that great of a review, but that was a while ago ('96 or so) Then Louie stopped advertizing and away went the articles. They started advertizing again and there are the articles again. Think about it, I'm a builder spending major bucks for ad space. I don't see MY boat in there, but I see another a builders boat who isn't spending dick! I'd be cancelling my ads! Then to add to the problem, I spend major $$$ for ads and you trash my boat to the public. I probably won't be renewing my ad contract. The only thing subscriptions do is give the guy selling the ad space good numbers to show the builder that HIS boat ad will be seen by all these folks. Kind of sucks, but that's business. The only true evaluation magazine out there is Consumer Reports, because they DON'T take builder ads. Alas, I don't recall any hot boats being tested :)
Finally on content. I agree, while I like dream boats, I'd rather read about stuff people build. Now I'd rather read about a 30 foot cat that the owner built and installed the motors then a 18' jetboat that someone bought as is, and vice versa. It ain't what you bought, it's what you built!
[ January 12, 2003, 07:29 AM: Message edited by: Craig ]

Havasu Hangin'
01-12-2003, 08:06 AM
I'll throw my 2 cents in...
The boat manufacuring community is very small, and margins are not what they are in other industries. Add to that a very small consumer base who actually buy boats, and you have a very volatile industry.
I can count on one hand the strong boat manufacturers, and most of those are production boats...not custom (an even smaller market).
That is a major problem for mags like Hot Boat...because there is no large marketing budgets available. Hot Boat (and other boating mags) can only get from advertising what the market will bear...
Subscription revenue will also be limited, because once again, they can only get what the market will bear. With a fraction of a percentage of today's consumers actually interested in boats (let alone custom boats), and a couple other mags out there, Hot Boat charges what they think they can get without alienating or driving away a subscription-base.
Circulation also can dictate ad costs.
Also, magazine distributers can dictate what they put on the shelves at the accounts they service. Velocity is a major factor in that decision. If Hot Boat doesn't sell as well as "Chimp Fitness"...then "Chimp Fitness" gets the spot and Hot Boat gets booted.
So, if you are Hot Boat, and you have a limited amount of revenue from advertising and sales, you now have to balance both worlds. Keep the manufacturers happy, and keep your subscribers happy. Manufacturers want to sell boats, and subscribers want to see more about the boats they already have.
Build-ups and project articles cost time and money...who will pay? Also, manufacurers want to sell boats so they can make the next payroll...not have us fix up our old boats...
In other industries...like the aftermarket automotive industry...there is much more money to go around (bigger market and more marketing dollars)...and the mags and articles reflect it.
Face it- we are a small (but vocal) group...if you want things to change, everyone here needs to get at least 3 neighbors to buy custom boats and subscribe to Hot Boat...
More spending money = more buying power

MAXIMUS
01-12-2003, 10:29 AM
Infomaniac:
***boat:
Any one else now is your chance to get some input in. I will take this stuff to Hot Boat on Monday. If you have something you do not want to post here mail it to me at webmaster@***boat.net. Hope they do not kill the messenger.
Maximus; Hot Boat of the month is not hard to do. The main consideration is the photography. If you notice it is not always the baddest or nicest boat. Get someone that can take transparency negatives and send it in. A few girls in the shot does not hurt. Info don't misunderstand me... I don't need to see blown drag boats in every shot. I like peoples daycruisers, deck boats, pontoons, or whatever people are using. What I am tired of is the 25' & up eliminator daytonas, or the hallet 240's etc... In the real world where I boat you see schiada's, open bow day cruisers, jet boats, beautiful vintage v-drives, some outboards (lol) as well as full on drag boats. Yes there is many "offshore" wannabies as well but the boaters I see are people on fixed income who don't want to spend 100 g's for a water craft. I may not be explaining myself correctly but I'm tired of typing...
How many times do you want to read an article on the latest ferrari or porche when your world & those around you are into mustangs & camaro's, & rice rockets (for the outboard guys) etc... :)

MAXIMUS
01-12-2003, 10:31 AM
And as for the girls in the shots, that is cool just don't block the guys engine or main part of the boat... That is very frusterating. There was a really cool blown injected ski racer that I was interested in recently & they had 1 shot with 2 sweethearts blocking the engine?? :confused:
All right I'm done

Backtanner
01-12-2003, 10:47 AM
I totally agree with Froggy. Distribution definitely wouldn't hurt. All the time at different airport or supermarket newsstands I'll see magazines like Boating and the like but I have never seen ***boat at a magazine stand anywhere.
I probably won't renew this year because I have all the shirts I need and I've got all the issues I need in the bathroom which is where they go after reading JetTech.
And if they are going to continue to be an advertisement for all the boat manufactures, spread it out some. I can't be the only guy in here making less than $100,000/Yearly...or maybe I am. Great now I'm depressed!
[ January 12, 2003, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: Backtanner ]

Seadog
01-12-2003, 11:18 AM
The dirty little secret about distribution is the limited number of slots available. I'm in an area that is more pontoon boats than any other type. Not enough owners are hard-core enough to make Pontoon and Deckboat Magazine a major seller. That puts it , just like ***boats , a marginal magazine. This relegates these magazines to limited distribution or 'incentive added' products. i.e., a bonus to the retailer.
I agree that there should be more 'reader rides' and how-to projects. How-to projects should not deter the builders, because a rebuilt used boat may get a few people interested enough to buy new later, or create a market so that someone can sell the old boat and buy a new one.
A good series of articles could be made about promoting high speed safety techniques. There are a lot of articles that could be written that do not involve big budgets, HB just needs to know that you want them and want to make the effort.

wsm9808
01-12-2003, 11:50 AM
The last time we had this thread, I had a responce simular to 77charger. I like build ups and tech. But I subcribe to ***boat because it is the only magazine that covers custom boats at all, and I like the forums and want to support the magazine and the sport boat industry.
The magazine can not be everything to everyone. If you stop subscribing i think that causes us to get even farther away from getting what we want in boat magazine content. We need to show our numbers and support the boating industry with our numbers, skills and dollars. You can find dozens of car/truck magazines on the stands because it is a huge industry.
Get more people involved in boating. Take your friends and nabors out in your boat. And, you know that kid that always comes up and drools all over your boat every time you unload it at the ramp-- give him a ride, he will remember it for the rest of his life and want a boat of his own someday.
Oh, wait, I forgot, the lakes are already too crowded. Nevermind, just change the name to Hotoffshoreboats and let everyone else buy a 42ft boat and make them run in the ocean. We'll just keep our little seceret about hot chicks in Gs and ***boats under 22ft to ourselves. We wouldn't want the rest of the world to find out about it and ruin all our fun.
[ January 12, 2003, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: wsm9808 ]

beyondhelpin
01-12-2003, 12:33 PM
Magazine walk a fine line between suscribers and advertisers. Hot Boat leans to advertisers to much. You can still do a honest evaluation and be frank about a boats flaws. Stress the good points and explain the flaws if possible. People are smart enough to know that in most cases a 24' boat that cost $35,000 is not going to be as nice (rigging, interior, layup, gelcoat, ect.) or as fast as a 24' boat that cost $85,000. Give us some credit. If you dont have credibility what do you have.
You are in a nich market and I can semi understand your fear of pissing off advertisers. Remember manufactures have as much to lose as you do. They still need to advertise to their target customers.
I can understand your distributions as you do not dictate where your magazine is sold, the distributors and stores do. Although you might want to get your sales dept. to beat the bushes a little more. But your subscriptions are another story. You do a piss poor job in this area. Before I ever heard of this web site I had experienced your slow delivery. Mentioned this to a friend and he was aware of the problem. How lame is that!
I no longer have a subscription because you guys have priced me out of the ballgame. You guys are not an exclusive custom magazine as you do some articles on production boats. How about adding some articles on the less expensive "hot boats". If nothing else to let us think we can still afford to play on this field. Still cater to the customs but broaden your scope. Would get me back as a suscriber! I still buy off the shelf sometimes. More reader more ad money. Keep your core, like someone mentioned it is also a wish book! Just dont focus so tight on it!
Just my opinion.
Hey Seadog, I remember that boat being written about in Hot Boat. It was suspossed to be fastest Formula ever built. I think the motors were built buy Lingenfelter. I was wondering why I had never seen the boat on Grand!

LVjetboy
01-12-2003, 02:04 PM
All this talk about ad revenue and marketing strategies sounds like another way of justifying compromise. Are there any great businesses with leaders who stuck to a pure focus...even at the expense of profit? Maybe not.
I'm really not interested in reading reviews or even do it yourself on offshores. Not because I can only dream of owning one...but because I don't dream of owning one. 22' and under (the small hot rods) is what I'm interested in. The two types of "hot boating" are different in more ways than $$$, like riding a motorcycle or driving an SUV...just not the same. Doesn't mean every guy with a Harley only dreams of trading up for a Suburban.
And...I'd be willing to pay more for a subscription IF HB was truly a small hot boat magazine.
jer
[ January 12, 2003, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: LVjetboy ]

Seadog
01-12-2003, 04:30 PM
I must have pissed someone off with having an opinion, They slammed me down to 2 stars. The ole boy made a mint off some invention and paid around 5-700k for that thing.

Stab-n-Steer
01-12-2003, 05:53 PM
I did not renew my subscription because the bastards stiffed me on my "free" t-shirt. Called them, they said "Sorry, 'another one' is one the way" never got the "second" one either... Apparently, I am one amoung many who did not get a t-shirt. Not that a t-shirt is important, but if they can't live up to their promotions they won't get my money again.
S&S
Ps. Seadog, I voted you five ***** !
[ January 12, 2003, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: Stab-n-Steer ]

burbanite
01-12-2003, 06:46 PM
LVjetboy:
And...I'd be willing to pay more for a subscription IF HB was truly a small hot boat magazine.
jer Couldn't agree more!

Havasu Hangin'
01-12-2003, 06:56 PM
LVjetboy:
All this talk about ad revenue and marketing strategies sounds like another way of justifying compromise.OK...then all 50 of the jet guys have to carry the burden of the magazine. I'll guess $500K in annual operating costs for the staff, printing 50 mags monthly, and the tech articles on (out-of-production) boats.
We'll have Rex pitch in for $10K a year in advertising...
That leaves about $9,800 per year in subscription fees for each of the 50 dedicated "small boat" jetters...
Please make your checks out to me...I'll make sure you get a tee shirt.

beyondhelpin
01-12-2003, 07:30 PM
Hey Sea Dog.
Maybe it was Hot Boat. I just dropped a star and when I checked my profile and I have nothing but 5s given to me not even a single 4 and I have a weighted average of 4.45. Makes you say Hmmmm. Its a conspiracy, I tell ya! Then again maybe we have a deduction because we dont live on the left coast!
Im guessing the guy did not invent anything that had to do with physics!

LVjetboy
01-13-2003, 01:20 AM
HH, keep the T-shirts...I've already got two. :D
50 jet guys? I'm thinking there's a few more. And what about v-drivers? Last I knew most of them had "small" hot boats too. Or how about O/B's and I/O's? I've no guess on subscriber breakdown let alone total national and international circulation or demographics.
Maybe HBM should do a survey and find out just where their subscribers fall...what size and articles they'd like to see covered? But that may imply they're actually interested in or willing to make changes based on survey results...a possible pitfall for them?
One thing seems clear, if they cater primarily to advertisers, content will be geared to advertiser friendly subjects, regardless of readership majority interest.
The two not alway one.
And evaluations will be colored by "advertiser correctness" regardless of readership wanting the plain no bullsh*t truth.
Personally, I have no plans to buy a new boat in the future, and maybe not forever. I love my hot rod. So I skim reviews just to see what lake competition is up to.
But I find it odd that what I see as the most radical(?) and "no compromise" Hot Boat magazine on the market has become so Politically Correct and mainstream. Somehow that's just plain anti-Hot Boat to me!
jer

waterslinger
01-13-2003, 07:25 AM
I would pay more for the mag if it had good info and tech. Look at the readers rides very few over
25 foot. I see more old jets and v-drive boats than mega-buck twin 500cid blown rich boy boats.
Hey if you can pay for a big boat more power to you, most of us are in 18 to 22 foot 10 year old
rigs. HBM get in touch with your readers.

VillainDave
01-13-2003, 08:25 AM
I didn't get my T-shirt! either and when i called i got the same excuse! And that another one would be sent out! so I won't renew until I get my shirt!
We need snow here in Colo so I can play on the river in the summer

roostwear
01-13-2003, 08:51 AM
I've read the whole thread, and a few things come to mind.
Manufacturer's don't drive the market...consumers do. You can advertise 40 footers all you want (because that's where your big gross is), but that creates a viscious circle. People with that amount of disposable income will buy 40 footers... regardless of overall consumer acceptance. Manufacturers will budget with their projected annual gross from the sale of 40 footers (where the profit is). Do the 18-22 footers come into play? No. The gross from those sales is considered negligible, and merely a "support" structure. See what's happening here? They make money on the 40's, so they ADVERTISE the 40's. Consequently, the ***boats write up 40s further alienating their core market. Ok, here we are present day.....
As far as doing technical articles and the money and time needed, it's a crock. Magazines use aftermarket manufacturers to promote articles (something ***boat is not skilled in). Ask Cyclone. I've been in automotive (and automotive marketing) for 20 years. Perhaps ***boat should take a lesson in using aftermarket suppliers for content. Would ANYONE here Not expect a tech article by, say, Dana Marine about installing a new exhaust system to promote Dana? I would have FAR LESS of a problem with tech articles driven by manufacturers, than a test.
Where do new boaters come from? I helped bring a new boater into the sport and it wasn't with a 40 footer. It was a 18' Tahiti. Same as most of you. ***boat can exploit and(and at the same time) increase it's readership by acknowledging this basic fact. For this hobby(?) to increase and broaden, it MUST support it's roots. Ignore it and the industry will continue on it's current path and continue to increase the gross on large boats (catering to that small market segment with more disposable income) to keep the doors open until they have priced themselves out of business. God help them if there is an economic downturn!
Bottom line is that ***boat has failed in effectively marketing itself AND the industry. They can include more content, but apparently don't know how. They can be leaders and steer the industry, or followers and be a party to it's demise.
Or not.
My .02
[ January 13, 2003, 08:53 AM: Message edited by: roostwear ]

Havasu Hangin'
01-13-2003, 09:11 AM
LVjetboy:
50 jet guys? Or how about O/B's and I/O's? Well Jer...I don't want to see any of those "jet tech" (oxymoron?) articles, so count me out...
roostwear:
Manufacturer's don't drive the market...consumers do.That's right- when you buy your next boat, are you gonna buy a new 22' Laveycraft or a 1977 Tahiti?
If you're gonna buy a Tahiti...then the manufacturers of new boats will not make any money off you.
If you wanna fix that Tahiti up, will you generate any revenue for the manufacurers?
Are you guys really naive enough to believe that you don't get steered by marketing capaigns?
roostwear:
As far as doing technical articles and the money and time needed, it's a crock. Magazines use aftermarket manufacturers to promote articles (something ***boat is not skilled in).I agree...but like I said...look at the aftermarket automotive vs aftermarket boat market...any guess on which is bigger and has more marketing money to spend?
Apples to oranges.

Spirit of Discovery
01-13-2003, 09:20 AM
Aw..who reads the articles...I just look at the pictures. OOPS, Honey, Did I get that backwards?

Blown 472
01-13-2003, 09:23 AM
roostwear:
As far as doing technical articles and the money and time needed, it's a crock. Magazines use aftermarket manufacturers to promote articles (something ***boat is not skilled in).I agree...but like I said...look at the aftermarket automotive vs aftermarket boat market...any guess on which is bigger and has more marketing money to spend?
Thus the reason the chevy engine is so popular.

superdave013
01-13-2003, 09:36 AM
I like the mag myself. I spend more on lunch in one week then I do on a years worth of ***boat so I'm not going to bitch about the petty shit.
Sure they cater to the advertisers. I cater to the ones that sign my check too.
I do agree with Froggy, it's hard to find on a news stand.
It sounds like some of you think you could do better. When you do I'll be your first on the subscription list.

roostwear
01-13-2003, 09:44 AM
HH,
Advetising merely TARGETS a demographic, it does not CREATE one. I think you missed the main point (and where this thread started). ***boat CAN appeal to a larger audience by utilizing aftermarket support. If ***boat goes to Joeblow carburetion and says "how about an article on upgrading to a 850 double pumper" (just an example, don't dwell on it), what do you think Joeblow says? HELL YES! Because HE knows that magazines are going to charge $800/mo for a 1/4 page b/w ad (3 month run), and the carb and time HE supplies is less than HALF that! ***boat has now increased it's content to that Tahiti crowd (that never buys anything from manufacturers), possibly picked up additional ad revenue from Joeblow, and their message boards change their tune a little.
This is an oversimplistic example, but the principle is the same. ***boat can market itself a little differently and STILL have the manufacturer's revenue. If that isn't possible, then they are in the wrong business.
Maybe infomercials at 2 am suits them better......

HavasuDreamin'
01-13-2003, 09:53 AM
While I would like to see more "build-up" projects, when was the last time you sat down, wrote out the specifics, went through and selected a few pictures, and mailed the info. off to ***boat? If they don't get anything in the mail, they have no build-ups to print. How many times has V-Drive Tech asked people to send in questions???? Same holds true for build up projects.
Likewise, ***boat can only test the boats sent to them by the manufactures. What are the manufactures sending to be tested???? You guessed it.......30' boats that cost $125,000.
To make a long story short wink I don't have an answer to the problem(s). What the consumer wants (more resto projects) is not what pays the bills, and the mag needs to rely on the consumer to send in quality info. What the manufactures want (press on their $$$$$ boats) is not what the consumer wants. :(
I don't know if I will renew my subscription or not. On the one hand it sucks seeing boat after boat that I will never be able to afford. On the other hand, it still beats Trailer Boats.
On the fairness of reporting issue, I think ***boat owes it to the consumer to report accurately. On the other hand, you can't bad mouth every bad boat or all your advertising $$$ goes away. I think a happy medium would be to not give the manufacture a second chance, and not print the write-up on that particular boat. This way, the manufacture does not get a bad rap, and the consumer can use common sense and know that if a boat has not been tested in the last couple of years, it might not be all that great of a boat!

Havasu Hangin'
01-13-2003, 10:01 AM
roostwear:
Advetising merely TARGETS a demographic, it does not CREATE one...Man...you guys are sensitive.
I myself have bought magazine, newspaper, radio, and FSI (free standing insert) media. I've never bought television airtime.
I know how media sells it's advertising space, and I know how to target a demographic. I also know that a demographic is a starting point, and the campaign's ultimate goal is grab market share.
If I knew that 75% of the magazines demographic will not buy a new boat in the next 5 years, you better believe I'm gonna shift my funds elsewhere...such as boat shows, and maybe a bigger booth.
I think you're missing my point.
Do I think Hot Boat could do a better job in certain areas? Yes. But that's my opinion.
Do they have a tough row to hoe between new boats and project hot-rods? Yes. You can't please everyone- especially those jet guys- they sure whine all the time.
Another thing you jerky boys are missing- this board is FREE...and has some of the best tech info, and project build-ups for our boats.
We can make the board whatever we want- it just takes contribution. Whining doesn't get anything done.
Like Dave said, when you guys start your mag...let me know.

roostwear
01-13-2003, 10:25 AM
Sensitive? Nah... gave up on that years ago! :D

Backtanner
01-13-2003, 10:28 AM
Havasu Hangin':
this board is FREE...and has some of the best tech info, and project build-ups for our boats. That does it, now I'm definately not renewing. My problem is that they just can't separate ads from articles.

1stepcloser
01-13-2003, 02:37 PM
I have to agree with Rd here. I enjoy the mag. I read all the high dollar tests, I doubt I will ever afford one, but I do look at all the features and accesories, and see if any of them will apply to my boat.
Many have.
I have read this thread and am somewhat disappointed by the overall theme that Hot Boat only tests big expensive boats, and never does build ups, etc.
This is simply not true. I read the mag every month, and it is filled with all types of articles.
Granted, Hot Boat does an annual test series of new stuff from the manufacturers, but I have seen engine upgrades, steering upgrades, electrical info, articles on maintanence, storage, the list goes on.
Hell, they even did a Ford engine build up... eek!
As a matter of fact, it was a steering upgrade article that prompted me to upgrade my own boat.
you guys need to go back and re-read the issue's.
In my own opinion, it is a pretty well rounded magazine.

MJ19
01-13-2003, 02:38 PM
When I got Brad a subscription as a gift, I found out about the magazine through lurking on the boards. If they don't feel the boards are a source of income they are gravely mistaken! :mad: Word of mouth is still the best advertisiment out there, and negative messages travel twice as fast...so they better take care of us talkers :p wink
I had to call 3 times to get the free t-shirt which was a major hassle in itself :rolleyes: ...but when someone advertises a free t-shirt I hold them too it. :D

canutowme
01-13-2003, 03:27 PM
i didnt resubscribe cause i want to read a magazine that i can relate to. I cant afford 99% of the boats in the mag and the only real world info i get from ***boat is the couple of Q's and A's in the jet tech. thats cool though cause know i have 20 bucks more to spend on beer this summer!

funkcity
01-13-2003, 06:23 PM
Most of the opinions voiced here are not wrong.
It seems that folks on this forum and the subscribers just want REAL information.
We know that some boats just plain do NOT handle well.
Some stepped Vs are downright dangerous to turn.
Some Cats handle like crap.
But you will NOT read that here!
If you want the glossy look and the upscale mag its Powerboat.
If you want Reader Rides, babes, a great website and forum, it’s ***boat
If you want in depth how-tos it's Family and Performance.
If you want the bottom line construction, performance evaluations…
You will have to do them yourself!
These mags are advertising period!
It’s the biz. It WILL NOT change.
Have you ever read a bad report on a Fountain?? No and you never will.
So enjoy the pics and presentations.
It is a lot of work for them to get their publications out.
Just don’t take a lot of the evals that seriously without doing them yourself!
I’m getting ready to cancel my Powerboat subscription after 20+ years. HB and F&P will then be my boating mags. They are more fun and practical for me, a guy with 3 kids in school just trying to make ends meet!
PB has lost me for a lot of the same reasons you folks list above.
In Hollywood… where to buy.
Hollywood Blvd. and Cahuenga News Stand has all the magazines and some amazing international boating publications as well. You can learn where boat design is going.
funkcity............out :cool:

RIVRHED
01-13-2003, 08:19 PM
***boat....
"The only performance boating magazine that matters"
Thats why I stopped subscribing. Get real.
Whats up RD, how have you been? I see you have made a name for yourself since I started all of the conversation about 2 years ago. NICE>
RIVRHED devil

RiverToysJas
01-13-2003, 08:24 PM
RIVRHED:
***boat....
"The only performance boating magazine that matters"
Thats why I stopped subscribing. Get real.
Whats up RD, how have you been? I see you have made a name for yourself since I started all of the conversation about 2 years ago. NICE>
RIVRHED devil Well there's a name from the past!!!
Where have you been???
RTJas :D

01RENEGADE
01-18-2003, 10:21 PM
Good magazine called family and performance boating.They have great tech articles.The newest issue has a 21 hallet with a 540ci drew marine built Ford engine.Good mag for the average joe.

NMlakerat
01-19-2003, 02:16 AM
I used to stare and wish for the big boats the whole time reading jet tech slowly as my budget could afford restore my 1977 19'sleekcraft over 10 years of owning that boat and loving waking up with a hangover for 0600 glass racing just the sound and smell of good fuel burnt. I don't know about you guys. having had a subscription since around 1982. I can remember the first hot boat mag I ever read. went to a friends lake house hanging out and found all these old issues they HB then were all jets or v-drives you see very few blown boats then. it was cool... I am sticking with them. Because i would stare and wish. i was able to step into my 29'Warlock people don't relize how easy it is to own a big boat they finance for 10 years you document them through the coast guard for thirty bucks don't need state sticker or numbers = < $ and write off the intrest as a second home have all the amenitys you need for a long weekend a place to play hide the salomi with wife/girlfriend or if you have kids they hang out nap play games ect. out of the sun granted now I dream about that big blower motor and hydralic steering and GPS speedo the list goes on ask rex marine how much more biz hot boat has brought to their door. I have been to several Advantage regatta's got to know some great people like Brian POP'S Davidson have a lot of respect for that man and what he has given to our sport. he did a build up on an old GN boat not to long ago and still does shop tours ect. his two sons are up their in the ranks. I love it. very good people who would take the shirt off their back to help you out on the lake or what ever Pop's even offered to let people use his truck to launch how many of you would do that HMMMMMMMMM
a fellow hot boater = ?

Craig
01-19-2003, 06:51 AM
We have a good example coming out next month. "Extreme Boating Magazine" comes out with their first issue. Let's see what they use for content. I personally would like to see boats that fit under what the title infers , EXTREME boats! Stuff out on the edge of sanity, i.e. serious horsepower, not standard eveyday engine packages that you check off on the build sheet. If I want to read about stock Merc powered boats, there's already enough of those mags around. But because these guys are in a business, I'll wager that's what we see. They aren't going to get builders to advertize by running all articles on older boats with custom built power. I hold hope that some of this stuff makes it in there given the name they chose, we'll see.

Moomawnster
01-19-2003, 07:17 AM
Advertising maggots have perfected the art of bullshit to the point that I do not even acknowledge their work ..... the moment I suspect a pitch is coming I kill it ... If you tell me your product is the "best" ,"fastest", "cheapest" etc.. you lose a customer , instantly ..... I have been trying for 6 months to stop delivery of a certain boating products catalog , [3 issues with my name spelled 3 different ways!] ... BUT... ad maggots don't hear anything that contradicts "profit" and I doubt that the sweet voiced gal on the phone really has any say , PROVE ME WRONG PLEASE ! burningm
[ January 19, 2003, 07:25 AM: Message edited by: Moomawnster ]

moneysucker
03-03-2005, 03:13 PM
We have a good example coming out next month. "Extreme Boating Magazine" comes out with their first issue. Let's see what they use for content. I personally would like to see boats that fit under what the title infers , EXTREME boats! Stuff out on the edge of sanity, i.e. serious horsepower, not standard eveyday engine packages that you check off on the build sheet. If I want to read about stock Merc powered boats, there's already enough of those mags around. But because these guys are in a business, I'll wager that's what we see. They aren't going to get builders to advertize by running all articles on older boats with custom built power. I hold hope that some of this stuff makes it in there given the name they chose, we'll see.
I bought Extreme Boat last week while I was in the store looking for Hot Boat. It is all big boats and also has an article on a 45 that was restored which was cool. If you don't know, I have a jet boat. I would love to see an all classic boat magazine but who will sell adds, CP for their small portionof sales from Berkleley pumps, Cascale, Basset, Rewarder? There is not enough money in the sales for these manufacturers to justify that. How many times have you seen someone on the boards looking for a used set of headers or a used, whatever. I was the same when I first started boating and I will still buy something used if it is a deal and I can make it look brand new again but collectively, classic boaters do not generate enough sales alone to keep these companies in business and able to expend a huge portion of profits to sell to us. I think Hot boat has done a fantastic job with the back hot boat section for us smaller old and new boats. Keep it up, We used to have nothing. I buy Extreme boating and hot boat to see others boats for ideas and innovations in the market for new ideas and trick stuff I can incorperate in my next boat.
I will admit that most of my money in my boat has gone to Summit, Maybe they want to throw an add in the back section. I hate to tell you but you can buy a magazine for information and to gain knowledge of things you may never own. I get ideas from boating mags, hot rod mags, Motorcycle mags it does not have to be exactly the same as I own to make a connection and benifit from an article. Hot boat, Keep up the back hot boat section and leave it with something for everyone. Have a great day.
Cy

BarryMac
03-03-2005, 03:30 PM
Wow Moneysucker, you pulled this thread from the bowels of the HB Forums...

Sane Asylum
03-03-2005, 03:59 PM
can i get a "HELL YA"?
Ughhhhhhhhhhhhh............NO, You can't get a hell yea....."Hot" boats aren't just a place in the water to sit a big blower motor.....They might just be a 32 footer on Havasu doin a 100mph.......

ChumpChange
03-03-2005, 04:25 PM
So I was reading this thread like it was new until I saw a post by HD&Boatrider...Dilligaf. Fortunately it was on the first page so I dind't read too much.
It's good to see that even back in January 2003, people were still posting "***boat has a magazine?" in threads.