NASA screws the pooch again...

[HighRoller]

Damn,those NASA guys got it good.Their negligence and carelessness has killed 14 or 15 astronauts in the last 15 years and they don't even lose their jobs!!The report shows that the operations guys were told about the foam coming off the tanks and replied"it's just a minor problem.Go ahead with the schedule."Kinda like when Thiokol told them the O-rings would fail under 35 degrees and they ignored the warning and launched anyways to keep on schedule!DOH!I wouldn't even drive that shuttle across town to the store,much less into space.

[Blown 472]

Nasa is the biggest waste of money to begin with, what the hell do I get for my tax dollars being shot into space?? what tangable thing have we gotten from space.
Shut it down and stick the billions they waste into the school systems.

[Chase]

Blown 472:
what tangable thing have we gotten from space.
Shut it down and stick the billions they waste into the school systems. I agree...what has come out of the space program???? :confused:

[summerlove]

I agree...what has come out of the space program???? :confused:
MOON ROCKS!

[Mandelon]

Blown 4722
Shut it down and stick the billions they waste into the school systems. [/QB]Schools don't need more money. The cost per student today is double what is was 20 years ago and scores have dropped continuously. Money is not the answer in schools.
It is the lack of attention at home. Mothers have to work to keep a decent standard of living for a houshold and kids suffer for it. Broken homes, and one parent families as well. If you don't read to your kids and play with them....you get what we have now. Kids who don't know how to learn and don't care to. It also helps if they can speak english. :rolleyes:
Nintendo and cartoons = bad. Reading = good.

[Ziggy]

Mandelon:
Blown 4722
Shut it down and stick the billions they waste into the school systems. Schools don't need more money. The cost per student today is double what is was 20 years ago and scores have dropped continuously. Money is not the answer in schools.
It is the lack of attention at home. Mothers have to work to keep a decent standard of living for a houshold and kids suffer for it. Broken homes, and one parent families as well. If you don't read to your kids and play with them....you get what we have now. Kids who don't know how to learn and don't care to. It also helps if they can speak english. :rolleyes:
Nintendo and cartoons = bad. Reading = good. [/QB]Amen brother...my daughter is a read-aholic 10 yr old. Has better comprehension than my 20 yr old son who dealt with a broken marraige and a lousy mother who slept all day instead of helping him grow up. :rolleyes:

[Mandelon]

See! The proof is in the posting.... :D

[sidewound]

Mandelon:
Blown 4722
Shut it down and stick the billions they waste into the school systems. Schools don't need more money. The cost per student today is double what is was 20 years ago and scores have dropped continuously. Money is not the answer in schools.
It is the lack of attention at home. Mothers have to work to keep a decent standard of living for a houshold and kids suffer for it. Broken homes, and one parent families as well. If you don't read to your kids and play with them....you get what we have now. Kids who don't know how to learn and don't care to. It also helps if they can speak english. :rolleyes:
Nintendo and cartoons = bad. Reading = good. [/QB]I WILL DISAGREE! My wife has taught learning disabled students for 16 years in two different states.
Any college grad. professional, in the business world today with 16 yrs. experience would be makin twice what my wife makes.
I live in Iowa. One of the lower paying states around. Iowa used to be renowned for the education programs here. Iowa Basic Skills????
As the salary situation stands now new teachers will graduate and teach an average of 1 1/2 years in Iowa before leaving for more lucrative venues. Can't say as I blame them. It is a "career" after all.
So we have ended up with a less than "cream of the crop" for educators. Don't get me wrong we have lots of wonderfull teachers here! But I wonder who will be here tomorrow.
In our states case ,I think "MONEY" would help keep good teachers.
A majority of the kids my wife works with are from poor homes and even poorer parenting. We will probably move back to Illinois in a couple years partially over salaries.
Again I must disagree that $$$$$$$$$$$ wouldn't help.
I will strongly agree that parenting is not some parents biggest priority. Nothin we can do about that but I'd like to see more seasoned teachers stay in our state.
Peace Man :cool:
CESAR

[miller19j]

Blown 472:
Nasa is the biggest waste of money to begin with, what the hell do I get for my tax dollars being shot into space?? what tangable thing have we gotten from space.
Shut it down and stick the billions they waste into the school systems. What do you get?
Well the computer you are posting on is a commercial product because of the space program. They laid the ground work for the PC by miniaturizing computer systems to control the shuttle engines.
How about the ATM machine you go to when you want money. That is a spin off of the networked computer systems used to control functions on the orbiter.
How about your Direct TV that you can watch 3 bazillion NFL games every weekend (I know the number is an exeaderation)
I could go on for days. But basically all the technology that has been put into the space program gets spun off in the commercial market. Where do you think the research money for all the electrical advancements in the past 20 years came from?
The school systems have plenty of money the problem is that they can’t manage it. If you through more money at them it will only compound the problem. They need to manage the money they have first!

[HALLETT BOY]

Hey ! What about the Probe that Nasa sent to Mars...it sure makes my life better here on
Earth...

[OGShocker]

QUOTE]I agree...what has come out of the space program???? :confused: [/QB][/QUOTE]
Most of today's high tech semi conductors, for one.
Hi Chase! Missed you in Sask. Maybe next year?!?
OGS

[MagicMtnDan]

The problem with NASA and schools are all related (in my opinion). NASA is a government bureaucracy dictated to by politicians whose sole skills consist of ass-kissing and getting re-elected and NASA's funding is like a roller coaster - some years they get enough money and some years they get their budget slashed.
The government can't even deliver the mail well or do it without raising the rates every year(no offense to postal employees everywhere)! How the hell do we expect the politically driven and funded NASA agency to run the most sophisticated program in the history of the world. We're lucky we got to the moon and the space station built.
As for schools, they get PLENTY of money. And they continue to get more because most every tax payer in the US has kids in our schools and they want to provide for them and help them get the best education possible. Unfortunately for the taxpayers and the students and the teachers, that money DOESN'T REACH THE KIDS! Why do you think teachers spend money out of their pocket to give kids some basic supplies?! The answer is simple really...
INCOMPETENCE in the government bureaucracy (sound familiar?). The school systems WASTE BILLIONS of our tax dollars. They're spending money as fast as it's given to them but it's spent on the wrong things. The higher levels of the school administrations are filled with the most incompetent people in our society (I say that based on the significant monies and budgets they are responsible for). Their whole purpose in life is to spend what they get and to make sure they get more (next year's budget should be the same or more than the current year's). Of course this is a generalization and there are many I am sure who do not fit this description but the problem is system and nationwide.
If NASA and the school system were run like businesses, we all would be a LOT better off (by the way, take a look at managers in businesses and compare them to managers in government agencies - it speaks volumes about how the two differ). However, we cannot just privatize them and expect them to improve. To understand that all you need to do is look at the deregulation of the utilities and the recent blackout. Once companies started running things they went after growing their profits (which is what companies do) and apparently none of them invested money in infrastructure ("the grid") and so we have an antiquated grid that the government must now step in and find a way to upgrade. This isn't going to be pretty.
What are the answers? I'm not sure but one of them is running these agencies like businesses. And it begins with hiring and keeping professional, ethical, and skilled people and giving them responsibility (and the ability) to make changes. That means the politicians must delegate responsibility and stop micro-managing the agencies).
Make the agencies deliver RESULTS. Make them deliver detailed, timely reports on where the money is going and what is being accomplished. Expect results just like a business does of its people.
OK, that's enough for now (phew!). Oh, one more thing, if you think we don't get enough from the space program, you need to look around. Around you, your business, your home, your car and the world. We have the most sophisticated, reliable and efficient technology everywhere you turn. While no one can say it wouldn't have happened without the space program it's clear that we wouldn't have it all NOW if President Kennedy didn't task this country with putting a man on the moon when he did.
In my opinion, the space program is as important as paying for our national defense. In fact, without the space program we wouldn't have a defense that's the envy of the rest of the world and we'd probably be dealing with other countries threatening our very existence. Terrorists would be only a part of what we'd be dealing with.
[ August 26, 2003, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: MagicMtnDan ]

[058]

When the schools stop wasting money on stupid stuff then maybe teachers might get a pay raise. Here in the East Bay Area, a school district [that will remain nameless] spent with an outside contractor $330,000.00 per year to show how to place food on lunchplates/trays to make it look more attractive to the students. Whereas teachers are allotted $230.00 per year for paper, pencils, chalk, ereasers and other misc. classroom supplys and the teachers have to strech this amount thru out the school year or they must pay for the supplys out of their own pocket. Calif school system is the most mis-managed POS there is in the entire state. It has become nothing more than an employment service and no amount of money will fix this problem. burningm :mad: :mad: burningm

[HighRoller]

I don't dispute the fact that a lot of advancements have come from space.BUT...they have used this excuse to expand their programs exponentially while producing little.I don't think NASA should be killed,just shrunk and held accountable like every other business.But like any other major government agency,they will never do with less than they have right now.We the taxpayer will pay more in one way or another and have less money but the government never will. As far as the"deregulation",it wasn't actually that at all.The demand side was privatized,resulting in power companies paying inflated rates to buy power.BUT...they were limited to a certain rate maximum by the govt and started losing their ass. So they sold their power to other states to get some of the losses back.In many cases,the power that Gay Davis got gouged for was power that originated at a private plant in Ca,was sold to another state,marked up and sold back to the state run plants.

[sidewound]

058:
When the schools stop wasting money on stupid stuff then maybe teachers might get a pay raise!
If your boss was a dumbass and spent too much money on crap would you be happy to forgo your raise for the year?
Here in the East Bay Area, a school district [that will remain nameless] spent with an outside contractor $330,000.00 per year to show how to place food on lunchplates/trays to make it look more attractive to the students.
Nice bit of trivia
Whereas teachers are allotted $230.00 per year for paper, pencils, chalk, ereasers and other misc. classroom supplys and the teachers have to strech this amount thru out the school year or they must pay for the supplys out of their own pocket.
My wife and I contribute money throughout the year to students at her school.
She taught summer school this summer and had to pick the kids up at home or the pathetic parents wouldn't bother. She often had to wake them and haul them to school. These are kids that need "extra" attention.
She pays for school supplies, we buy winter coats for needy children, we adopt a needy students family for christmas
We donate money for shoes for needy chilren at school. We go out into the business sector and solicit donations for items the school budget won't allow. Thankyou Harley Davidson !
These children are the future of our country and aren't being treated as such.
Calif school system is the most mis-managed POS there is in the entire state. It has become nothing more than an employment service and no amount of money will fix this
I don't know about Cali. but it's fukd here. As you said "FAT CATS" are gettin paid for nothin and the kids suffer.
Our state will lose a tenured 16 year teacher in a couple years because the financial rewards just aren't in our state.
I don't see the too much money thing on our end.
How much do ya suppose we shell out to "HELP" kids that need it. On a light salary it's often hard to manage so sometimes kids flat
GO WITHOUT!
THESE ARE YOUR KIDS THAT ARE GETTIN RIPPED OFF!
Squat on your almighty dollar if you will but get off your ass and do somthin or STFU!
problem? burningm :mad: :mad: burningm CESAR YEAH CESAR!!!!!!!!!!!!

[058]

I believe it was NASA that is responsible for the accellerated development of computers. That in it self brings you cheaper parts. Without CNC machines you wouldn't be able to afford 90% of the parts you use on your boats. Could you buy Ross, Venolia or JE pistons if they were still made by old hand wheel machines? and when you took your block to the machine shop to be bored for those new hand made JE pistons they would need to be "fitted" to each cylinder because no two pistons would be identical in size, that would equate to more $$$$ anyway you look at it. NASA has played a big roll in the development of different alloys of different metals, like stainless and other steel alloys, tool steel, titanium, bryllium, all the different aluminum alloys we all take for granted now, they weren't available or if they were they were priced out of the average person's budget. Look at the development of ceramics, thats a complete different subject. Personally I wouldn't trade NASA with just about any government social program they fund now and if they take one dollar from NASA to give to the school system that is another wasted dollar.

[058]

Sidewound, ease up...I'm on your side. We have a big problem in Ca. We have [at last count] 116 non-teaching personal to every 100 teachers within our state school system. Another district [will remain nameless] spent millions to close schools down but then built a brand new administration building with the best carpet money could buy and bugeted over $100K just for art for their new bare walls. Now why would a district need a new admin. building at a cost of over $1.5M to administer to schools that were left after the closure of roughly 35-40% of the district's schools? Maybe you Iowanns can come here and show us how a school district should be run. We need all the help we can get.

[mickeyfinn]

Don't feel like the west coast is the only victim of stupid school policy. In the county where I live (I have a kid in pre-k and one in 1st grade) the teachers are not allowed to ask parents for things such as pens, paper or other items that might be needed in the pursuit of teaching kids....BUT.....let the freshly waxed floors get a few scratches on them and what happens?..The school sends a note home to parents requesting that we all send in a tube of tennis balls so they can cut them and put them on all of the chair legs in the school. AND GET THIS!! They won't accept used balls because they want the school to look good!!....What a crock.

[sidewound]

058
Sorry if I came across a bit harsh. This is a bandwagon people should have been on years ago.
When our state pushed for legalized gambling the BOTTOM LINE was the profits from taxes was going to be 100% dedicated to education. Somehow that changed after the law was passed
I reckon now a good % of it is lining some fat bastards pocket.
burningm
If anyone has a good idea on how to go about saving our teaching system I'm all ears.
I DO somthing and will try to DO SOMTHING MORE if anyone has a suggestion!
Sorry for hyjacking the thread it just hit a nerve.
Proximity to the problem and all!
Peace To all :cool:
Let the future get a chance!
CESAR

[sidewound]

mickeyfinn:
Don't feel like the west coast is the only victim of stupid school policy. In the county where I live (I have a kid in pre-k and one in 1st grade) the teachers are not allowed to ask parents for things such as pens, paper or other items that might be needed in the pursuit of teaching kids....BUT.....let the freshly waxed floors get a few scratches on them and what happens?..The school sends a note home to parents requesting that we all send in a tube of tennis balls so they can cut them and put them on all of the chair legs in the school. AND GET THIS!! They won't accept used balls because they want the school to look good!!....What a crock. Sorry about your situation. THAT'S BULLSHIT!
I got my own idea about where to stick them tennis balls!
Peace Man :cool:
CESAR

[HighRoller]

The other problem is teachers' unions.The NEA (National Education Association)has shifted the focus from the kids to the teachers.Their goal is to get lifetime employment for teachers once they are tenured.They fight accountability and standards testing for teachers.They fight vouchers because public schools can't compete with private schools.Public schools on the east coast spend up to 10K per student per year while private schools spend about 3K and outperform the public schools by a wide margin.So it's not money that is the problem.It's all about how much power the beaurocracy can get in the public schools.

[058]

HighRoller:
The other problem is teachers' unions.The NEA (National Education Association)has shifted the focus from the kids to the teachers.Their goal is to get lifetime employment for teachers once they are tenured.They fight accountability and standards testing for teachers.They fight vouchers because public schools can't compete with private schools.Public schools on the east coast spend up to 10K per student per year while private schools spend about 3K and outperform the public schools by a wide margin.So it's not money that is the problem.It's all about how much power the beaurocracy can get in the public schools. Here we have the CTA [Calif Teacher's assoc.] that rules the roost among the left wing politicans. They contribute millions to Denocratic canidates[sp] and they are beholding to the most powerful union in the state. It would take a miricle of the 'parting of the Red Sea proportions' to break the stranglehold they have on the state govt. Until then we are at their mercy of their will and wishes. They want more people employed and more money so they get it. Unfortunatly it does not get to where it was intended, the children. However they are quick to use "its for the children" ploy to extort more $$$$ from the hapless taxpayer because most of them think it still goes to "the children". Whenthe Calif Lottery was started many years ago we were sold the bill of goods that over 30% would go to schools....they didn't tell us that they were deducting 35% in general funds from the schools...net loss 5%....just from lottery money. Its all Bull shit and I'm sick of hearing it. If they want more money from the taxpayer they can go pound sand.

[058]

sidewound:
058
Sorry if I came across a bit harsh. This is a bandwagon people should have been on years ago.
When our state pushed for legalized gambling the BOTTOM LINE was the profits from taxes was going to be 100% dedicated to education. Somehow that changed after the law was passed
I reckon now a good % of it is lining some fat bastards pocket.
burningm
If anyone has a good idea on how to go about saving our teaching system I'm all ears.
I DO somthing and will try to DO SOMTHING MORE if anyone has a suggestion!
Sorry for hyjacking the thread it just hit a nerve.
Proximity to the problem and all!
Peace To all :cool:
Let the future get a chance!
CESAR Sidewound, as much as I appluade your efforts to help the schools in your district those deadbeat politicans rely on people like you to take up the slack and make life easier for them. They can go to their constitutents and say what a wonderful job they have been doing running things so smoothly and effecently...at your expense. I see it happening here, good citizens take it upon theirselves to do grunt work, clean up graffiti, scrub walls, polish floors and paint school buildings and the local politicans use that as how wonderful the system is running under their "tenure" and you need to vote for me because I am wonderful and the school dept. would fall apart without me. The whole thing makes me want to puke everytime I hear this drivel. yuk

[HighRoller]

I crack up at the politicians who have been promising to make schools better for 20 years now. They never actually solve the problem because then they wouldn't have an issue for next election.We need vouchers for school choice.

[Jbb]

Here is something to think about - it explains a lot......
Does the statement, "We've always done it that way" ring any bells...?
The US standard railroad gauge (distance between the rails) is 4 feet, 8.5 inches. Now that's an exceedingly odd number.
Why was that gauge used?
Because that's the way they built them in England, and English expatriates built the US Railroads.
Why did the English build them like that?
Because the first rail lines were built by the same people who built the pre-railroad tramways, and that's the gauge they used.
Why did "they" use that gauge then?
Because the people who built the tramways used the same jigs and tools that they used for building wagons, which used that wheel spacing.
Okay! Why did the wagons have that particular odd wheel spacing?
Well, if they tried to use any other spacing, the wagon wheels would break on some of the old, long distance roads in England, because that's the spacing of the wheel ruts.
So who built those old rutted roads?
Imperial Rome built the first long distance roads in Europe (and England) for their legions. The roads have been used ever since.
And the ruts in the roads?
Roman war chariots formed the initial ruts, which everyone else had to match for fear of destroying their wagon wheels. Since the chariots were made for Imperial Rome, they were all alike in the matter of wheel spacing.
Therefore, the United States standard railroad gauge of 4 feet, 8.5 inches is directly derived from the original specifications for an Imperial Roman war chariot.
And bureaucracies live forever.
So the next time you are handed a spec and told we have always done it that way and wonder which horse's arse came up with that, you may be exactly right, because the Imperial Roman war chariots were made just wide enough to accommodate the back ends of two war horses.
Now the twist to the story...
When you see a Space Shuttle sitting on its launch pad, there are two big booster rockets attached to the sides of the main fuel tank.
These are solid rocket boosters, or SRBs. These SRBs are made by Thiokol at their factory in Utah. The engineers who designed the SRBs would have preferred to make them a bit fatter, but the SRBs had to be shipped by train from the factory to the launch site.
The railroad line from the factory happens to run through a tunnel in the mountains. The SRBs had to fit through that tunnel. The tunnel is slightly wider than the railroad track, and the railroad track, as you now know, is about as wide as two horses' hind quarters.
So, a major Space Shuttle design feature of what is arguably the world's most advanced transportation system was determined over two thousand years ago by the width of a horse's arse.
And you thought being a horse's arse wasn't important ??

[sam pioske]

NASA "teflon" does some neat stuff.
Lets see teachers make 50-60k $ they work 6 1/2 mo's year - every perk known to man 0 copay Med.insurance Dead presidents days & on & on. if they get a job for the time not teaching, they will be at 100k $ whats wrong with that ?
3 of my people in public schools sys. our school sys. in top 10% in Ca., but! thats the lowest 10% in the world

[MagicMtnDan]

ALL politicians, Dems and Republicans, ALL spend money like a junkie wants more heroin. NO politician can be trusted with OUR money. NONE of them. They exist to spend our money.
Until we limit their spending they will only continue to spend more. Until we put restrictions on them they will continue to make new laws and spend more money. That's all they know to do.
We must get smart, realize the problem and take action to tie their hands and keep them away from the cash drawer. They are not interested in smaller government, a lower spending government, or fewer laws that enable us to live free and enjoy living here.
Can you imagine the number of laws this country will have in another 50 or 100 years? California is so over-legislated that you can't take a piss without paying a tax. It's hard to imagine it getting any worse but that's all that's happening.
Special interests need to be out of politics. And lifetime politicians like Gray Davis need to be sent a message - do the job or get the F-out! We need to try to make sure our money goes where it should and that's not in special interests' pocketbooks.

[AzDon]

While it can be generally agreed that taxpayers are not recieving the education value from our public schools that's being funded, public schools are still a WAY smarter choice for our kids'education than charter schools or vouchers!
Vouchers and charter schools are nothing more than "privatization" schemes, designed to create cheaper "market" or "bid" rates for educational services. Because they don't start out with a taxpayer-paid infrastructure of eathquake-safe, conveniently-located school buildings, these educational service companies can only provide their services cheaper by offering cheaper pay packages. As a result, the most qualified new teachers only want to work for public school districts in exchange for the best pay,benefits, and retirement available to professionals in their field. There is no incentive for experienced teachers to leave public schools either, so charter, parochial, and other private schools accepting vouchers as full payment simply can't compete for the best teachers! While it's possible that cheap-ass privatization of education could save some money, I don't believe that the scheme will ever be agreed to by informed parents voluntarily and here is where I see danger for the long-standing concept of a quality education at public expense.
"School choice" could morph into the dismantling of public education as a cheap-ass cost-cutting scheme.... in other words, NO CHOICE!
Competent people will not be choosing teaching careers if public school systems are dismantled and that's a fact!
Before you label my rant "socialist", let me agree, and state that a public education IS a perfect example of a "collectively funded" or "socialist" scheme that has successfully served this country well for over a hundred years. As we've increasingly lost local control over our schools to state and federal governments, stupid costs and requirements have been added.
I'd be in favor of a full tax credit for parents choosing to send their kids to private schools, but most parents' full tax liability is not enough to fund private-school tuition for one child, so it would not be a proper substitute for public education. I believe that schools should be funded directly by residents within a district's boundaries without state or federal acting as a middleman for this funding. Perhaps this sounds like a scheme to deprive poor areas of school funding?! Yes it is! And without apology! Those poor areas need to realize that they will need community involvement and hard work to provide a quality education for their kids and, in doing so, show their kids that education matters!

[AzDon]

Wasn't this thread about NASA?....
Stupid waste of money- We are literally shooting billions of dollars into space!!
The space program and arms race are socialist schemes that have produced a wealth of technology perhaps a hundred years sooner than private enterprise might have provided it, but the taxpayers have involuntarily paid a hefty price along the way.
Even dumber: foreign aid, one-sided free trade, globalization,welfare programs that reward laziness, sub-living wages, below-cost goods and services,wars that are not compensated by the "spoils", illegal immigration, etc.

[Havasu_Dreamin]

I rather have some fo my tax dollars go to NASA than to some BS social program! And yes, NASA is a governement buearacracy and as such has it's fair share of problems but all of government has that problem and needs to change.

[Taylorman]

Blown 472:
Nasa is the biggest waste of money to begin with, what the hell do I get for my tax dollars being shot into space?? what tangable thing have we gotten from space.
Shut it down and stick the billions they waste into the school systems. Without the space program we would not have those cool GPS speedometers.

[Donnie]

Hey lets not forget..TANG :D

[TahitiSteve]

Excellent posts Dan,
I'll say what you didn't. The problem is specifically that these programs are coercively funded by tax dollars. Because of that they operate under the incentive to FAIL, yes to FAIL. There is no competition, and with no competition there is no incentive to frugality. There is no CHOICE, there are no customers to lose, there is noone to keep happy, they have no-where else to go. The government employees have all the power, the customers (slaves) have none.
Under a govermnent program excellence, and achieving objectives simply means "they have enough money, we should cut their budget" failure means "they don't have enough give em more". Incentives drive the world.
The answer with NASA, education, and everything else (except right protection) is privatization.
AZDON,
Privatization, and to lesser degree vouchers creates competition in schooling, it gives the customer a voice, and allows people to demand better schooling and to vote with their wallets. It gives schools an incentive to educate, where currently the incentive is to keep the kids stupid proving that schools need more money.
There would be many schools teaching things in many different ways, some methods would fail, the better methods would be adopted by more schools, and teaching practices would be always evolving to a higher level. Not the stagnant one size fits all education we have today.
Would some get better education than others, sure they would, but even the lowliest of schools would do more educating than the Juvenile Day prisons we have today. Because if they didn't, they would go out of business, rather than be awarded more money for their failure.

[Rod-64]

Donnie:
Hey lets not forget..TANG :D Or Velcro. :D

[AzDon]

In Lake Havasu, we have public schools and at least 3 "charter" schools. Arizona charter schools are funded directly by the state and the "choice" to send your kids there doesn't cost extra! The Lake Havasu school district produces the second or third best test scores in the state and works tirelessly to get it's graduates the most scholarship money possible.
Our charter schools, by contrast,struggle to produce test scores that are college-worthy. Is it a coincidence that their teachers are also not paid very well? I don't think so! Parents that choose cheaper teachers are accepting less for their kids and less education than their taxes are funding! The only "competition" I see in any of this is for "wage cheapness" or, put another way, "how cheap are you willing to work?"
Cheapness is not a good strategy for recruiting qualified, competent teachers and will result in shortages that "cheap" schools will not have the funding to buy their way out of!
If you want to turn education into a circus like trucking and the airlines, just keep hammering it with a "cost cutting" agenda until nobody wants the job. Just don't think that quality won't suffer!!

[AzDon]

Has anybody ever considered that NASA could be a total fraud that's never actually sent people up! For the amount of money they've stolen from us, they easily could have "produced" film from space! As a mismanged, socialist program, I don't think it's given us a fair return on our investment!
[ August 29, 2003, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: AzDon ]

[TahitiSteve]

In Lake Havasu, we have public schools and at least 3 "charter" schools. Arizona charter schools are funded directly by the state and the "choice" to send your kids there doesn't cost extra! The Lake Havasu school district produces the second or third best test scores in the state and works tirelessly to get it's graduates the most scholarship money possible. I would bet that the Lake Havasu district is also one of the richer areas in the state as well. Yes wealthy areas will generally have a decent, or even excellent public education system, because they have competition. It has nothing to do with the school district itself, but with the environment.
In a rich area if the public schools are terrible, the parents have the wealth to take their kids out of public education, and pay twice for private education. Even though it's not on an equal playing field, the private schools serve to keep the public schools in line.
When you go to poorer areas the same is not true, even if they get the same amount of funding per child, the education is terrible. The school has nothing to fear, the vast majority of the parents can not afford to send their kids to a private school. The school is under no incentive to teach well.
As far as the charter schools are concerned, take a look at the worst performing school districts that have lost children to the charter schools. You will probably find that their education has improved significantly since the formation of the charter schools. How full are the charter schools? If they are always at capacity and expansion of their services to more students is restricted, the education they provide will suffer(High demand, no ability to raise supply).
The charter schools are under the incentive to outperform their competition, If they can pull enough students from the lowest quality schools to fill all their seats, they will not raise the quality of education much if any higher than that. More competition would only serve to increase the quality of education to higher levels.
Incentives move the world.

[AzDon]

Havasu is not a "rich" area! You'd be surprised how much income people sacrafice in their career field to live here! Even our school district is one of the lowest paying in the state, yet we fill all the positions every year because teachers here appreciate working in an academic environment where they have the support of parents and the administration. While there are undoubtedly parents that can afford "private" school, there are no private schools in the area. Our charter schools mostly cater to students that have had unresolvable issues with the public schools, so they could be characterized as "less teachable" students that are being taught by cheaper, 2nd rate teachers.
I can't visualize any model where cheaper teacher wages would equal a better education, especially when better paid teachers are a no-extra-cost choice. It simply flies in the face of the sacred "supply-and-demand" concept that "free market" folks hold so dear! That's why I think "school choice" is simply the first step in a conspiracy to completely "privatize" education and offer us only poorly paid teachers.
Why replace something that mostly works in communities where the parents get involved?
If you want to bag on a system that's totally out of control, why not complain about our healthcare system where the 20% copay can bankrupt a family?

[Over 18]

there can be competition, but i think that it should be positive rather than negative. provide incentives for schools to outperform other schools...dont threaten to take their funding away!

[Blown 472]

Over 18:
there can be competition, but i think that it should be positive rather than negative. provide incentives for schools to outperform other schools...dont threaten to take their funding away! Like what?? hugs and warm fuzzy shit?? unlike the real world where if you dont perform you dont have a job???