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09-10-2003, 04:03 AM
This speaker, (Roscoe Bartlett) is a Representative from the state of Maryland, and is an "older" man, and by the end of his speech, he was beginning to lose his voice, but was determined to be heard. He stood up for what is right. I only wish there were more like him representing this great country of ours.
If you would like to e-mail Roscoe Bartlett, his website is: http://www.bartlett.house.gov/legislation.asp
If you would like to e-mail your Representatives to ask them to also support prayer in schools, the website is: http://www.house.gov/writerep/
PRAYER IN AMERICA -- (House of Representatives - September 05, 2003)
[Page: H8009]
--- The SPEAKER pro tempore (Mr. Carter). Under the Speaker's announced policy of
January 7, 2003, the gentleman from Maryland (Mr. Bartlett) is recognized for 60
minutes.
Mr. BARTLETT of Maryland. Mr. Speaker, this morning we began our session here
with a prayer. That was prayer to a God. We did the Pledge of Allegiance to the
flag, and in that Pledge of Allegiance we recognized that this was a Nation
under God. And inscribed in marble above your chair, Mr. Speaker, are the words
``In God We Trust.''
Now, while we opened our session with prayer today and recognized God in our
Pledge of Allegiance to the flag and recognized there is a God in that
inscription in marble above your chair, at the same time we have removed the Ten
Commandments that that God wrote from a courthouse in Alabama.
Mr. Speaker, we appear to be a Nation conflicted. We pray in this House. Just
at the other end of this Capitol, every day the Senate is opened with prayer. I
understand the Supreme Court prays to open their session, and in many public
events we have a prayer. In most athletic events there is a prayer before the
event. Our military has chaplains of just about every religion. But in our
society the only place where prayer is conspicuously absent is our schools,
another reflection, Mr. Speaker, of the confliction of our society.
To understand how we got here and how we can open our session with prayer and
recognize in our Pledge of Allegiance that this Nation is under God and have
that inscription above your chair ``In God We Trust,'' and still to remove the
Ten Commandments under court order from a courthouse in Alabama, I think we need
to go back and review who we are and how we got here.
Mr. Speaker, freedom is not free. Five of the 55 signers of our Declaration
of Independence were captured and executed by the British. Nine of them died on
the battlefields of the Revolutionary War, and another dozen lost their homes,
possessions and fortunes to British occupation.
Today, much of what our Founding Fathers fought and died for is at risk of
being lost. The major reason for that is that there are three big lies that are
about in the land today, and for the next few minutes I want to look back at our
history to refute these three lies that I think are the basis for the conflicts
in our society which allows us to pray to a God here, recognize him in our
Pledge of Allegiance, and is inscribed above your desk, and still to remove the
Ten Commandments from the courthouse. These three big lies are that our Founding
Fathers were largely atheists and deists, that they wanted to establish a
nonChristian Nation, and in that first amendment they sought to erect a big wall
of separation between church and State.
This history, of course, begins in 1776 with the Declaration of Independence.
In that Declaration of Independence was a radical departure from the norms of
the time. We read those words, or recite those words if we have memorized them,
and they do not have the same meaning to us as they had to them because we did
not come out of the milieu from which they came. Today, of course, our citizens
are children of immigrants from every part of the world, but our Founding
Fathers came largely from the British Isles and the European Continent. Thinking
back to the history at that time, essentially all of those countries were ruled
by a king or emperor who incredibly, from our perspective, claimed and was
granted divine rights. What that meant was that the rights came from God to the
king, and the king or emperor would then give what rights he wished to his
people.
Now, in our Declaration of Independence we broke with that, because we said
all men are created equal. Notice the reference to a God, a Creator, in that
Declaration of Independence, that all men are created equal. That was a
startling statement to make because in the countries from which they came, all
people were not created equal. They made a break from that and said that all men
are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights.
Among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Now, 11 years later, and it took 11 years for the promise of the Declaration
of Independence to meet the fulfillment of the Constitution, the Constitution
was written. In that Constitution they sought to put down in very plain words
the fundamental principles that they espoused in the Declaration of
Independence, that all men are created equal, that the fundamental rights belong
to the people, and they belong to the people because they were given to the
people by God. Our Constitution does not give us any rights. Those rights were
given to us by our God. The best that our Constitution can do is to say we are
not going to permit another person to take those rights away from us.
But the ink was hardly dry on the Constitution before they wondered if people
would really understand
that they meant that the fundamental rights, most of the rights belonged to
the people, and so they wrote 12 amendments that started through the process of
two-thirds of the House and two-thirds of the Senate, and then three-fourths of
the State legislatures. Ten of them made it through that process, and we call
those the Bill of Rights. If Members look through the first through the tenth,
in many of them, the rights of the people are specifically mentioned; but where
the rights of the people are not mentioned in those words, it is clearly the
rights of the people that are being protected by these amendments.
Now how did we go from a government, a Constitution that was created by
God-fearing people who recognized God in their Declaration of Independence and
who sought in their Constitution and those first 10 amendments, to make sure
that those God-given rights were never taken from us, how did we come to a
society so conflicted as we are today? I think it is because of the three great
lies that are about in our country today: that our Founding Fathers were
atheists and deists, that they sought to establish a nonChristian Nation, and
they wanted to erect a big wall of separation between church and State.
What I want to do now for the next few minutes is to go back into our history
and let our Founding Fathers speak for themselves.
Let us see what the courts said. We will take a brief look at some things
which the Congress did and said, and then we will look at our schools and what
they were at the beginning of our country.
We can look all we want in the Declaration of Independence and the
Constitution for those words, a wall of separation between church and State or
separation between church and State. Those words do not appear in either the
Declaration of Independence or in our Constitution. And so we looked in
constitutions to see where we could find those words, and we do find them. We
find them in the Constitution of the United Soviet Socialist Republic, article
124. It says there, ``In order to ensure citizens' freedom of conscience, the
church in the USSR is separated from the state and the schools from the
church.''
[Page: H8010] Those words may appear in their constitution, but they do not appear in our
Constitution anywhere, so how did we get here? To refute these lies then that
our Founding Fathers were atheists and deists, and they sought to establish a
nonChristian Nation, let us let the Founding Fathers speak for themselves.
Patrick Henry is called the firebrand of the American Revolution. His words
``Give me liberty or give me death'' every school child knows, but I would
submit that the textbook from which those words appear for your child in his
school have been bled dry of any reference to the Christian church origin of
these words. These were spoken in St. John's Church, Richmond, Virginia, on
March 23, 1775. This is what Patrick Henry said. ``An appeal to arms and the God
of hosts is all that is left us, but we shall not fight our battle alone, there
is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle, sir, is
not to the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at
the price of chains and slavery, forbid it, Almighty God. I know not what course
others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death.''
Was Patrick Henry a Christian? The following year, 1776, he wrote this. ``It
cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was
founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions but on the
gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been
afforded freedom of worship here.''
Benjamin Franklin was said to be a deist. Now a deist is said to be a person
who believes that there is a God but does not bother praying to him, and this
God is very powerful, he created the universe and he created this world, and he
also set in place certain physical laws, and your destiny will be determined by
how you relate to those laws, so do not bother praying to God. That is what a
deist is. Let me read something about Benjamin Franklin and you tell me, Mr.
Speaker, if you think he was a deist. The year is 1787. We are in Philadelphia
and the Constitutional Convention is deadlocked. There may not be a
Constitution.
One of the issues was how to prevent big States from abusing the small
States, and Benjamin Franklin, 82 years of age, the Governor of Pennsylvania,
perhaps the oldest and most revered person in that Constitutional Convention,
rose to speak. And this is what that deist said, and I cannot image how Members
could conclude he is deist from these words. ``In the days of our contest with
Great Britain when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayer in this room
for divine protection. Our prayers, sir, were heard and they were graciously
answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent
instances of superintending providence in our favor. To that kind providence, we
owe this happy opportunity to establish our Nation. And have we now forgotten
that powerful friend? Do we imagine we no longer need his assistance? I have
lived, sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see
of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. If a sparrow cannot fall
to the ground without His notice, is it probable that a new Nation cannot rise
without his aid? We have been assured, sir, in the sacred writings that except
the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I therefore beg
leave to move that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of heaven and its
blessings on our deliberations be held in this assembly every morning before we
proceed to any business.''
[Time: 17:00] That precedent, Mr. Speaker, we honor today because we began today our
session with prayer. Every day we do that.
Thomas Jefferson was also said to be a deist. This is what he said:
``I am a real Christian. That is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of
Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the
unity of our creator, and I hope to the pure doctrine of Jesus, also.''
On slavery, Jefferson wrote, ``Almighty God has created men's minds free.
Commerce between master and slave is despotism. I tremble for my country when I
reflect that God is just and his justice cannot sleep forever.''
George Washington, our first President:
``It is impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible. Of all of
the dispositions and habits that lead to political prosperity, our religion and
morality are the indispensable supporters. Let us with caution indulge the
supposition, that is, the notion or idea, that morality can be maintained
without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that our
national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.''
What would he have thought of removing the Ten Commandments from that
courthouse in Alabama? In Washington's prayer book, he wrote:
``O eternal and everlasting God, direct my thoughts, words and work, wash
away my sins in the immaculate blood of the lamb, and purge my heart by thy Holy
Spirit. Daily frame me more and more in the likeness of thy son, Jesus Christ,
that living in thy fear and dying in thy favor, I may in thy appointed time
obtain the resurrection of the justified unto eternal life. Bless, O Lord, the
whole race of mankind and let the world be filled with the knowledge of thee and
thy son, Jesus Christ.''
John Adams, our second President, was also President of the American Bible
Society and this is what he said:
``We have no government armed with the power capable of contending with human
passions unbridled by morality and true religion.''
And now listen to these words:
``Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is
wholly inadequate to the government of any other.''
What would he say about removing the Ten Commandments from that courthouse in
Alabama?
John Jay, our first Supreme Court Justice:
``Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is
the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian Nation to select
and prefer Christians for their rulers.''
That is our first Supreme Court Justice. What would he say about the refusal
of our Supreme Court today to hear this case?
John Quincy Adams, son of John Adams, also President of the American Bible
Society and, by the way, he told his friends that he valued his presidency of
the American Bible Society above his presidency of the United States. These are
his words:
``The highest glory of the American revolution was this. It connected in one
indissolvable bond the principles of civil government with the principles of
Christianity. From the day of the declaration, they, that is, the founders were
bound by the laws of God which they all acknowledged as their rules of
conduct.''
And then somewhat later on, Calvin Coolidge, Silent Cal, a President of very
few words. He was known for this. I understand that at one banquet a lady sat
next to him, and she told the President that she had made a wager with one of
her friends that she could get the President to say at least three words that
evening. He responded to her and his response was the only words that he uttered
that evening and those words were, ``You lose.''
Calvin Coolidge said, ``America seeks no empires built on blood and forces.
She cherishes no purpose save to merit the favor of Almighty God.'' He later
wrote, ``The foundations of our society and our government rest so much on the
teachings of the Bible that it would be difficult to support them if faith in
these teachings would cease to be practically universal in our country.''
We could quote from a great many more of our Founding Fathers. Essentially
all of them made comments like this. But let us turn now to our courts, to the
Supreme Court.
In 1811, there was a case the People v. Ruggles. This was a person who had
publicly slandered the Bible. This case got to the Supreme Court and this is
what they said:
``You have attacked the Bible. In attacking the Bible, you have attacked
Jesus Christ. In attacking Jesus Christ, you have attacked the roots of our
Nation. Whatever strikes at the root of Christianity manifests itself in the
dissolving of our civil government.''
What would that court say about the removal of the Ten Commandments from the
courthouse in Alabama?
In 1845, there was a case Vida v. Gerrand. This was a lady teacher who
[Page: H8011]was teaching morality without using the Bible. I have no idea how that case got
to the Supreme Court, but it did, and this is what they said:
``Why not use the Bible?'' This is the Supreme Court. ``Why not use the
Bible, especially the New Testament? It should be read and taught as a divine
revelation in the schools. Where can the purest principles of morality be
learned so clearly and so perfectly as from the New Testament?''
And then in 1892, the Church of the Holy Spirit had made the contention that
Christianity was not the faith of the people and that came to the Supreme Court
and this is what they said:
``Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the
teachings of the redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that they should be
otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our
institutions are emphatically Christian.'' This is the Supreme Court. ``No
purpose of action against our religion can be imputed to any legislature, State
or national, because this is a religious people. This is historically true. From
the discovery of this continent to this present hour, there is a single voice
making this affirmation.''
The justices went on citing 87 different legal precedents to affirm that
America was formed as a Christian Nation by believing Christians.
What happened? In 1947, a Supreme Court enlarged by Franklin Delano Roosevelt
from seven to nine did a 180-degree about-face, and they repudiated 160 years of
precedents in a ruling which talked about this wall of separation between church
and State. They misunderstood as many today what our Founding Fathers hoped to
accomplish by that first amendment.
We might spend a moment looking at why that was the first amendment. Our
Founding Fathers did not come here to get rich. As a matter of fact, many of
them left riches to come here to get freedom. Freedom from what? There were two
tyrannies that they came here to escape, some one, some the other, and some
both. One was the tyranny of the church. In England, the Episcopal Church was
empowered by the state so it could oppress other religions. On the European
continent, it was the Roman Church that was empowered by the state so that it
had the power to oppress other religions. And then, of course, there was the
tyranny of the crown, this divine right of kings and emperors. I think it is no
accident that in 1791 when our Founding Fathers wanted to make crystal clear
what they meant in the Constitution, they wanted to say explicitly in those
first 10 amendments what was implicit in the Constitution, that the first two
addressed these two tyrannies from which they sought to protect themselves. It
is very interesting that the establishment clause of the first amendment, that
Congress should enact no law relative to the establishment of a religion, that a
major architect of that was a Roman Catholic, Charles Carroll, for whom Carroll
Creek in Frederick County is named, for whom Carroll County in northern Maryland
is named. You see, in old Virginia, Roman Catholics could not vote and in
colonial Maryland, not only could Roman Catholics not vote but Jews could not
vote. To their great credit, our Founding Fathers recognized when it came time
to write the Constitution, and those first 10 amendments, that that is not what
they came here to do, to discriminate, to deny, and so they chose a person who
had been discriminated against, a Roman Catholic, to be a major architect of
that first amendment. Clearly what they wanted to do, and they say it over and
over, and the courts have said it, that what they wanted to do was to prevent
the State from empowering any one religion so that it could oppress others. They
had no fear of religion itself. They had no concern about people of religion
being in government. They had no concern about God being in government. They
mentioned God in the Declaration of Independence. We have ``In God We Trust'' on
our coins today and every bill that you carry in your purse. We began this day
with prayer. The Pledge of Allegiance to the flag, we recognize there is a God.
``In God We Trust'' is in marble over the chair of the Speaker. Clearly these
are the roots of our country. How could we have wandered so far away?
Ever since 1947, no Supreme Court has ever gone back for any verdict dealing
with this subject that repudiated 160 years of precedents before that.
Let us move now to the Congress and look at a couple of things that the
Congress did and said. The first of these is in 1854. Humanism and Darwinism
were sweeping the country and there was an assertion that America was not a
Christian Nation. The Congress studied this for a year and after a year, on
March 27 of 1854, the Senate Judiciary Committee issued its final report. These
words are from that report:
``The first amendment clause speaks against an establishment of religion. The
Founding Fathers intended by this amendment to prohibit an establishment of
religion such as the Church of England presented or anything like it but they
had no fear or jealousy of religion itself nor did they wish to see us an
irreligious Nation.'' This is the Congress. I love these next words. With the
time we spend in front of the television set, we no longer have a vocabulary or
the ability to produce these kinds of phrases:
``They did not intend to spread over all the public authorities and the whole
public action of the Nation the dead and revolting spectacle of atheistic
apathy. Had the people during the revolution,'' and this is the Congress, the
Senate, ``had the people during the revolution had a suspicion of any attempt to
war against Christianity, that revolution would have been strangled in its
cradle.''
At the time of the adoption of the Constitution and the amendments, the
universal sentiment was that Christianity should be encouraged, just not any one
sect or denomination. The object was not to substitute Judaism or Islam or
infidelity but to prevent rivalry among the Christian denominations to the
exclusion of others. ``Christianity must be considered as the foundation on
which the whole structure rests. Laws will not have permanence or power without
the sanction of religious sentiment, without the firm belief that there is power
above us that will reward our virtues and punish our vices.''
Consistent with this philosophy, the Continental Congress bought 20,000
Bibles to distribute to their new citizens, and for 100 years, at the beginning
of our country, this Congress appropriated money to send missionaries to the
American Indians.
Let me read further from this report from the Congress:
``In this age, there can be no substitute for Christianity. By its great
principles, the Christian faith is the great conserving element on which we must
rely for the purity and permanence of our free institutions. That was the
religion of the Founding Fathers of the Republic and they expected it to remain
the religion of their descendants.''
[Time: 17:15] Let us turn now to our schools. And the Congress in 1854 made this statement
about our schools. It said: ``The Congress of the United States recommends and
approves the Holy Bible for use in our schools.'' Consistent with that, it was
used.
The New England Primer was used for over 200 years. Notice how they taught
the alphabet.
``A. A wise son makes a glad father but a foolish son is heaviness to his
mother.
B. Better is little with the fear of the Lord than abundance apart from him.
C. Come unto Christ, all you who are weary and heavily laden.
D. Do not do the abominable thing, which I hate, sayeth the Lord.
E. Except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.''
The ``McGuffey Reader,'' used for 100 years. Not too many years ago it was
brought back to some of our schools when for a number of years the achievement
scores had considerably dropped and we graduated over 1 million people who
literally could not read their high school diplomas, and, out of desperation,
they brought the ``McGuffey Reader'' back to some of the schools, because when
we had that in our schools, the graduates could read when they graduated from
school.
The ``McGuffey Reader.'' This is what it says: ``The Christian religion is
the religion of our country. From it our derived our notions on the character of
God and on the great moral Governor of the universe.'' This is the author of
[Page: H8012]the ``McGuffey Reader": ``On its doctrines are founded the peculiarities of our
free institutions. From no source has the author drawn more conspicuously than
from the sacred scriptures. For all of these extractions from the Bible I make
no apology.'' That is the author of the ``McGuffey Reader.''
Of the first 108 schools in our country, 106 were distinctly religious. The
first of these was Harvard University, named after a beloved New England pastor,
John Harvard.
This is what they said in their student handbook: ``Let every student be
plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well the main end of his
life and studies is to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life, John
17:3; and therefore to lay Jesus Christ as the only foundation of all sound
knowledge and learning.''
For over 100 years, more than 50 percent of all of the graduates of Harvard
University were pastors.
We now expose these three great lies: the wall of separation, those words
appear only in the Constitution of the Soviet Republic. They are not in our
Constitution, they were not intended by our Founding Fathers. Their only intent
was to make sure that the state never empowered any one religion so that it
could oppress others.
Clearly in letting the Founding Fathers and the courts and the Congress and
the schools speak, it is very clear that our Founding Fathers were not atheists
and deists, that they did intend to establish a religious Nation.
We have changed. What have we reaped? America 100 years ago had the highest
literacy rate of any nation on Earth. Today we spend more on education than any
other nation in the world, and yet since 1987 we have graduated more than 1
million high school students who cannot even read their diplomas.
We spent more money than any other nation in the industrialized world to
educate our children, yet SAT scores fell for 24 straight years before finally
leveling off at the bottom in the 1990s, and there they remain, if you watch
your papers. There they remain at the bottom.
In a 1960 survey, 53 percent of America's teenagers had never kissed and 57
percent had never necked, that is to hug and kiss, and 92 percent of teenagers
in America said they were virgins in 1960.
Just a little personal anecdote. I got my doctorate at the University of
Maryland in 1952, just in this time period, in a little building at the highest
point on the campus there, Memorial Hall, a brick building that still stands.
Just over the hill from there were girls' dormitories, and the dean of women
would not let the girls go barefoot because she said it was too sexy.
How have we changed? Today, instead of that, we have coed dorms, and I am
afraid far too many coed rooms at the University of Maryland.
By 1990, just 30 years after 1960, 75 percent of American high school
students are sexually active by 18. In the next 5 years, we spent $4 billion to
educate them how to be immoral through trumpeting the solution of safe sex, and
it worked. One in five teenagers in America today loses their virginity before
their 13th birthday, and 19 percent of America's teenagers say they have had
more than four sexual partners before graduation.
The result? Every day 2,700 students get pregnant, 1,100 get abortions, 1,200
give birth. Every day another 900 contract a sexually transmitted disease, many
incurable. AIDS infection among high school students climbed 700 percent between
1990 and 1995. We have 3.3 million problem drinkers on our high school campuses,
over half a million alcoholics in any given weekend in America. Thirty percent
of the students population spends some time under the influence of alcohol.
A couple of years ago a young woman in a high school in Oklahoma wrote this
poem as a new school prayer:
Now I sit me down in school
Where praying is against the rule.
For this great nation under God,
Finds mention of him very odd.
If scripture now the class recites
It violates the Bill of Rights.
Any time my head I bow
Becomes a Federal matter now.
Our hair can be purple, orange, or green.
That's no offense; it's a freedom scene.
The law is specific, the law is precise.
Only prayers spoken out loud are serious vice.
For praying in a public hall
Might offend someone who has no faith at all.
In silence alone we must meditate,
God's name is prohibited by the State.
We are allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks.
They have outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.
To quote the Good Book makes me liable.
We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
And the 'unwed daddy' our Senior King.
It is inappropriate to teach right from wrong,
We are taught that such 'judgments' do not belong.
We can get our condoms and birth controls,
Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.
But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
No word of God must reach this crowd.
It is scary here I must confess,
When chaos reigns the school's a mess.
So Lord, this silent plea I make:
Should I be shot, my soul please take.''
Our Nation, which used to lead the world in every arena, now leads the world
in these areas:
We are number one in violent crime, number one in divorce, number one in
teenage pregnancies, number one in abortion, number one in illegal drug abuse,
and we are number one in the industrialized world for illiteracy.
Alexis de Tocqueville, who toured this country for 5 years, asked what was
there about America that made it so special. He summed up his lengthy visit in
1831: ``I sought for the key to the greatness and genius of America in her great
harbors, her fertile fields and boundless forests; in her rich minds and vast
world commerce; in her universal public school system and institutions of
learning. I sought for it in her democratic Congress and in her matchless
Constitution.
``But not until I went into the churches of America and heard her pulpits
flame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power.
America is great because America is good; and if America ever ceases to be good,
America will cease to be great.''
Would Alexis de Tocqueville understand why we took the Ten Commandments out
of that courthouse in Alabama?
In 1863, Abraham Lincoln declared a National Day of Humiliation, and these
are his words:
``We have been the recipients of the choicest bounties of Heaven. We have
been preserved these many years in peace and prosperity. We have grown in
numbers, wealth and powers as no other nation has ever grown.''
And, Mr. Lincoln, the growth from then on has been uninterrupted and today we
are something that you could not even have imagined then.
``But we have forgotten God,'' he says. ``We have forgotten the gracious
Hand, which preserved us in peace and multiplied and enriched us; and we have
vainly imagined in the deceitfulness of our hearts that all these blessings were
produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own.''
Could you have a clearer description of where largely we are today in our
attitudes?
``Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too self-sufficient to
feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving Grace, too proud to pray to the
God that made us. It behooves us then to humble ourselves before the offended
Power, to confess our national sins and to pray for clemency and forgiveness.''
Abraham Lincoln said this to our Nation. We need to hear it again: ``It is
rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us, that
from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they
gave the last full measure of devotion, that we here highly resolve that these
dead shall not have died in vain, that this Nation, under God, shall have a new
birth of freedom.''
Most of this present generation have not forgotten from whence we came. They
never knew. Our textbooks have been bled dry of any reference to the Christian
heritage of our country.
Abraham Lincoln understood that this Nation was a new experiment, that it
might not be successful, because four score and seven years later, and if you do
the arithmetic that takes you back to the Declaration of Independence, four
score and seven years ago our fathers founded on this continent a new Nation,
conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created
equal. We are now engaged in a great war, testing whether that nation or any
nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure.
[Page: H8013] Then he went on to say they were met on a great battlefield of that nation
and we come here to dedicate that to those who fought and died here.
Then he ends that Gettysburg Address with almost a prayer: ``This government
of the people, by the people, and for the people, shall not perish from the
Earth.''
Let me end with where I started. We opened our day's business today in this
House with prayer; we did the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag, in which we
recognized that we are in a Nation under God; and over the Speaker's Chair
inscribed in marble in large letters are the words ``In God We Trust.'' And yet
at the same time we now have required the removal of His commandments from that
courthouse in Alabama.
I submit that if our textbooks had not been bled dry of the Christian
heritage of our country, if in fact our leaders today would go back and read the
Federalist Papers to understand the milieu in which our Constitution was
written, that they would understand very clearly that our Founding Fathers never
could have imagined that we would have interpreted that Establishment Clause as
requiring freedom from religion, and that is what they are trying to do. They
clearly meant it to assure freedom of religion.
Those are two very different concepts, Mr. Speaker, and my prayer is, my hope
is, that our leaders today will go back for a refresher course in our history,
look again at our Founding Fathers and who they were and what they stood for and
what they fought and what they died for and what they said and what they did in
their Congress and what they did in their Supreme Court and what we taught in
our schools.
If we did that, Mr. Speaker, those Ten Commandments would be hauled back as
quickly as one could to that courthouse in Alabama, because their presence there
clearly is not at any variance with any of the principles of our Founding
Fathers.
As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, they would be appalled that we had so
misinterpreted their assurance that never should the State empower any religion
so that can could oppress others. They would ask us, How could you have
misunderstood? Didn't we make it clear to you that we were talking about an
establishment of religion? Wasn't it clear from all of our personal statements,
from all of what we did in our courts, from what we said in our Congress, that
we believed that God was essential in our Nation?
Certainly children should pray in schools. Certainly the Ten Commandments
should be in public places. We are a Christian Nation, established by Christian
people, and I hope, Mr. Speaker, that our leadership in our courts and in our
Congress and in all of our States go back and review our history so they can
understand from whence we came, because if we do not, Mr. Speaker, go back and
understand from whence we came, I am concerned about where we are going.
END

silver surfer
09-10-2003, 04:42 AM
I love all these non educators who know what is best for students. Great, let's add prayer! Should improve school test scores, lower the drop out rate, lower violence in school. BULLSHIT! Half of the students in middle school refuse to get off their big butts and say the pledge. Hey, I have a great idea: Make prayer in the home mandatory! Oh yeah, they don't want to say some parents aren't cutting it! May lose votes. Keep the great ideas from non educators out of schools and put them in the homes. That is where the moral lessons should be learned.

Catmando
09-10-2003, 07:01 AM
If prayer helped ANYbody, it was Osama bin Laden and his terrorists on 9/11.
Praying is begging.

Blown 472
09-10-2003, 07:03 AM
http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/19can_o_worms.jpg

OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET
09-10-2003, 08:02 AM
Catmando:
If prayer helped ANYbody, it was Osama bin Laden and his terrorists on 9/11.
Praying is begging. I'll pray for you buddy. :D
Omega

eaglemtnlaketx
09-10-2003, 08:48 AM
Right there with you. Omega. Thanks for the post.

Ultracop
09-10-2003, 08:52 AM
As you can see by my post count.....I don't get involved a whole lot. But, I agree with Omega. Let's pray for those who don't.

Fat Chance
09-10-2003, 08:58 AM
Catmando, spoken like a true liberal commun...I mean democrat.
[ September 10, 2003, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: Fat Chance ]

mikev
09-10-2003, 03:13 PM
i agree this country was founded by christians and became the greatest nation on earth in 200 years because god blessed us for being faithful. why do you think no other country in the world had achived what we have even though they have been around alot longer. It is funny to hear the atheist whine that we are trampling ther rights they would not have any if it wasnt for god and all our laws based on his 10 commandments giving them rights.

mickeyfinn
09-10-2003, 03:47 PM
This liberal bullsh$t is what has caused and is going to continue to cause this once great country to slide right into the toilet. I did say once great country and I meant it. It is still the best thing going and second to no other in providing for the rights of everyone but it is not as great as it used to be. Just look back in history at what kind of place we used to have. When I was a kid all of the kids in the neighborhood would gather under the streetlights and hang out not causing trouble or getting into any trouble everyone was just "visiting" All of the parents knew all the other parents. When I was 6 or 7 my parents had no idea who's house I was at but they didn't worry because they knew that all of the people knew all of the kids and we looked out for each other. Now days the only kids you see outside after dark are up to something. When we were 11 or 12 our parents would drop us off at six flags with a 5 dollar bill and a sack lunch and come pick us up at 11:00 pm. No way would I do that today!!! Is it because the kids don't pray in church, probably not. But it IS because the liberal have limited the things that can be said and have insisted that morals and values are things that are individual rights to develop and that society as a group should not be trying to "mold people to fit society" This country was founded by christians with christian values and christian beliefs. We do not have the right to say "YOU WILL BE A CHRISTIAN AND YOU WILL GO TO CHURCH AND YOU WILL PRAY WHEN TOLD TO PRAY" I have never ever, nope not even once I mean not even come close to hearing anyone say this is the course we should take. What I have heard is people asking that the schools be allowed to provide a moment of silence in order for their kids to pray if so inclined or bow their heads in silent reflection or just close their eyes and rest if that is what they choose to do. This in no way infringes on anyones rights, it doesn't pretend to be steering anyone to believe in any particular religion or even none at all. I participated in career day at my kids elementary school last week. One of the parents was a minister who spent a lot of time visiting some of the poorer countries and providing humanitarian aid and sharing his beliefs with them. IN HIS OWN COUNTRY IN HIS DAUGHTERS SCHOOL he was not allowed to discuss the fact that he was a CHRISTIAN MINISTER!!! The only reference he could make was that while in other countries he shared his beliefs. He did stop to make the point that even when visiting the poor areas of Russia visiting their schools he was free to minister and talk of Jesus and Christianity. SOMETHING HAS GONE WRONG!!. The schools allow the teachers to teach evolution but not devine creation. I honestly believe it all goes back to one of the most basic things this country was founded on "states rights" This is a decision which should be left up to individual states both in the schools and the government. The federal supreme court should REFUSE to hear any cases that pertain to religion. THAT IS SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. It is meant to keep the government out of the church not the church out of government.
OK>>>....off the soap box again but somehow CAT manages to piss me off any time he posts.

chub
09-10-2003, 04:00 PM
This Country was founded so people could practice the religion of CHRISTIANITY. Get over it, that's what our founding fathers intended and unfortunatly lawyers have misrepresented that fact. That's the way I see it and that's the way I'm going to always see it like it or not.
Thanks Omega for the post and I'll say a prayer on your behalf today!
Here comes the backlash.

rvrtoy
09-10-2003, 04:13 PM
i will join all of you in prayer over this matter. i do not post a ton but this is something that is near and dear to my heart. if you want my opinion the United States of America was founded on christian morals and standards by god fearing believers who wanted a place to worship free from persecution. god has blessed this land that we call home. if you think i'm wrong then go read your money. if more Americans took this phrase to heart than this place would be a much better place to live. "IN GOD WE TRUST". the majority of the problems in government are caused by the seperation of church and state. just ask your god fearing president. just my .02

MRS FLYIN VEE
09-10-2003, 04:18 PM
Thanks omega. I agree. More people need what we already know. :)

Irishluck
09-10-2003, 04:45 PM
Catmando:
If prayer helped ANYbody, it was Osama bin Laden and his terrorists on 9/11.
Praying is begging. Man you don't ever shut the **** up do you? Do us all a favor and strap a bomb to your chest go to a terrorist cell and blow yourself up. I happen to know sombody that died that day so keep your goddamn comments to your ****ing self. :mad:

OGShocker
09-10-2003, 04:54 PM
Irishluck:
Catmando:
If prayer helped ANYbody, it was Osama bin Laden and his terrorists on 9/11.
Praying is begging. Man you don't ever shut the **** up do you? Do us all a favor and strap a bomb to your chest go to a terrorist cell and blow yourself up. I happen to know sombody that died that day so keep your goddamn comments to your ****ing self. :mad: You forgot to tell that dipshit (cat) you would pray for him. But, I liked would you remembered to say to him! :D :D
Cat: Don't you have a motor to fix?

MagicMtnDan
09-10-2003, 05:05 PM
Catmando:
If prayer helped ANYbody, it was Osama bin Laden and his terrorists on 9/11.
Praying is begging. You're entitled to your opinions because this is America. But you're not entitled to $hit on others and show a complete lack of respect.
Every time I come across one of your posts I despise you a little bit more. I'm sure you're very much in favor of a woman's right to choose. Why don't you go ask your mother why she didn't abort you. And then find someone who cares enough about you to want to hear the answer. That oughta keep you busy for a very long time.

Irishluck
09-10-2003, 05:35 PM
MagicMtnDan:
Catmando:
If prayer helped ANYbody, it was Osama bin Laden and his terrorists on 9/11.
Praying is begging. You're entitled to your opinions because this is America. But you're not entitled to $hit on others and show a complete lack of respect.
Every time I come across one of your posts I despise you a little bit more. I'm sure you're very much in favor of a woman's right to choose. Why don't you go ask your mother why she didn't abort you. And then find someone who cares enough about you to want to hear the answer. That oughta keep you busy for a very long time. I like that I shot you a five for that one. The problem cat has is like most liberals they bash anything that works in this country and make excuses for the less fortunate in our society. I like most people in these forums like my freedom and the pursuit of happiness and don't what these liberals to **** it up.

mike37
09-10-2003, 06:23 PM
OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET:
Catmando:
If prayer helped ANYbody, it was Osama bin Laden and his terrorists on 9/11.
Praying is begging. I'll pray for you buddy. :D
Omega me to

mike37
09-10-2003, 06:44 PM
silver surfer:
I love all these non educators who know what is best for students. Great, let's add prayer! Should improve school test scores, lower the drop out rate, lower violence in school. BULLSHIT! Half of the students in middle school refuse to get off their big butts and say the pledge. Hey, I have a great idea: Make prayer in the home mandatory! Oh yeah, they don't want to say some parents aren't cutting it! May lose votes. Keep the great ideas from non educators out of schools and put them in the homes. That is where the moral lessons should be learned. WTF hope your not teaching any kids

silver surfer
09-10-2003, 08:47 PM
Mike37: If you have kids, I doubt it, they would be lucky to have a dedicated teacher like me. Not that I need to justify anything to you. Reread my post,the school is not the problem. However, judging from your sentence structure and lack of punctuation from your post, the schools may have failed you. WTF right back to you.

silver surfer
09-10-2003, 08:56 PM
[ September 10, 2003, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: silver surfer ]

silver surfer
09-10-2003, 08:56 PM
P.S. I love reading posts on pro prayer and then glance over to your Avatars. Seems to send a mixed message to me.
[ September 11, 2003, 06:05 AM: Message edited by: silver surfer ]

Catmando
09-10-2003, 09:03 PM
Irishluck:
Catmando:
If prayer helped ANYbody, it was Osama bin Laden and his terrorists on 9/11.
Praying is begging. Man you don't ever shut the **** up do you? Do us all a favor and strap a bomb to your chest go to a terrorist cell and blow yourself up. I happen to know sombody that died that day so keep your goddamn comments to your ****ing self. :mad: Awww...him so mad. :p :D

Catmando
09-10-2003, 09:14 PM
chub:
This Country was founded so people could practice the religion of CHRISTIANITY. Get over it, that's what our founding fathers intended and unfortunatly lawyers have misrepresented that fact. That's the way I see it and that's the way I'm going to always see it like it or not.
Thanks Omega for the post and I'll say a prayer on your behalf today!
Here comes the backlash. Which brand of Christinsanity WAS it?? Every colony had laws against different religions, and they ALL had laws against Jews living in their areas. None of 'em much liked Catholics either, except the Catholic colonies which were few, if any. And Muslims or Hindus? Forget about it, not gonna happen.
One of the greatest achievements of the Founding Fathers was that they stopped that religious insanity with the 1st Amendment.
If any of you fine, upstanding Christians don't like that State and church are separate, I'll buy you a one-way ticket to Iran. burningm

SoCalOffshore
09-10-2003, 09:41 PM
O"reilly talked about this very subject tonight after the Arnold interview. God help us all.

SoCalOffshore
09-10-2003, 10:08 PM
Fact: This country was founded on Judeo/Christian beliefs, values and morals. Period. As those beliefs, values and morals errode over time. So shall the greatness of our country.

TahitiSteve
09-10-2003, 10:14 PM
There's a quite simple answer to this--END SOCIALIZED SCHOOLING. Or enact vouchers allowing people to choose and fund the education that is best in their judgement.
Yes it is wrong to force parents to fund schools which do not teach the principles they want their children to learn. It would also be wrong to force Christianity down the throats of those who oppose it. The only answer is a free market in education. There is no right answer under a coercive system.

COELIMINATOR
09-11-2003, 11:23 AM
Great post Omega.

fear the turtle
09-11-2003, 11:51 AM
what happened there? decided not to get into it, it's cool, I'd say it but it wouldn't of came out as good.
To each there own is what I say. Live however you want, just don't go shoveling it my way.
[ September 11, 2003, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: fear the turtle ]

fear the turtle
09-11-2003, 12:30 PM
RiverDave:
fear the turtle:
what happened there? decided not to get into it, it's cool, I'd say it but it wouldn't of came out as good.
To each there own is what I say. Live however you want, just don't go shoveling it my way. Well, I decided to ask a question about American History instead of getting into a religious debate. wink :D
I am certainly waiting though for someone to answer the question though. To my knowledge American wasn't founded by fleeing Pilgrims seeking refuge to practice Christianity free from persecution. It was founded by Christians that were offered incentives to start new lives in the "new land" etc..
I certainly wouldn't shovel my views down anyones throat. To be honest my views would probably surprise ya especially after reading those two posts. I'm not anti Christian at all. I am however Anti propaganda in every respect.
RD FTR, I wasn't disagreeing with you. Your initial post was right on in my book. I was just saying "what happened, shoulda kept it up there."
[ September 11, 2003, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: fear the turtle ]

schiada96
09-11-2003, 12:35 PM
RiverDave:
Speaking of Post Constitution "Christian" morals and values.. Anyone ever heard of the Salem Witch Hunts? :D
RD Yeah the bitches had it comin!

schiada96
09-11-2003, 12:36 PM
RiverDave:
Speaking of Post Constitution "Christian" morals and values.. Anyone ever heard of the Salem Witch Hunts? :D
RD Yeah the bitches had it comin!

OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET
09-11-2003, 12:49 PM
mickeyfinn:
THAT IS SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. It is meant to keep the government out of the church not the church out of government.
This sums it all up right here. hence the reason all U.S. currency has 'in god we trust' on it.
Omega

fear the turtle
09-11-2003, 01:10 PM
OMEGA_BUBBLE_JET:
mickeyfinn:
THAT IS SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. It is meant to keep the government out of the church not the church out of government.
This sums it all up right here. hence the reason all U.S. currency has 'in god we trust' on it.
Omega Actually not true, it more to keep the church out of the govt. In old England where most of the founding fathers came from the Church had a heavy hand in the govt. That's why many left, because they were being prosecuted by the state for laws pertaining or built around specific religions. Even in early provinces here the church often had a heavy influence in the community laws(witch hunts, persecution of Jews). So that the government does not show laws favorable to any religions beliefs, it is important to keep the Church out of the govt(it is important to keep chrisitan prayers/beliefs out of schools sponsored by governments).

mike37
09-11-2003, 01:12 PM
silver surfer:
Mike37: If you have kids, I doubt it, they would be lucky to have a dedicated teacher like me. Not that I need to justify anything to you. Reread my post,the school is not the problem. However, judging from your sentence structure and lack of punctuation from your post, the schools may have failed you. WTF right back to you. Judging from your sentence structure and lack of punctuation from your post, the schools may have failed you.
The answer to that would be yes it did
If you make comments like that to the kids you teach you’re not as good as you think
And I do have two boys that IM very proud of
IM not in to prayer butt I think that that at school it should not be taken away if the kids want to participate let them
And thanks for embarrassing me in front of the class
Good job teach

fear the turtle
09-11-2003, 01:24 PM
And I do have two boys that IM very proud of
IM not in to prayer butt I think that that at school it should not be taken away if the kids want to participate let them They probem is, is what about those kids that don't. Even if they are to just sit there quietly while others pray, you are still asking them to sit there and observe it.
The 14th amendement allows the people to pray at sporting events or when they choose. But the 1st amendement also strictly does not allow the government to enforce or observe any religions practices. Other words any student can pray when they want, but collectively the govt cannot sponser a religous practice. And I completely agree.

mike37
09-11-2003, 01:54 PM
fear the turtle:
And I do have two boys that IM very proud of
IM not in to prayer butt I think that that at school it should not be taken away if the kids want to participate let them They probem is, is what about those kids that don't. Even if they are to just sit there quietly while others pray, you are still asking them to sit there and observe it.
The 14th amendement allows the people to pray at sporting events or when they choose. But the 1st amendement also strictly does not allow the government to enforce or observe any religions practices. Other words any student can pray when they want, but collectively the govt cannot sponser a religous practice. And I completely agree. You’re nit picking the details
If it’s called a prayer its not OK but
If it’s a moment of silence its OK
That’s how anal some people have gotten
Would you not allow a moment of silence in school to day?
For the friend and family, people the died on this date

mikev
09-11-2003, 03:02 PM
I feel that I should not be allowed to force my religion on anyone (Christianity) or should anyone be allowed to force the relgion on me. But we should have the right to speak about our beliefs. I just feel we have gone to far in this country with political correctness and no body can do anything because it might offend somebody. I am fine with the moment of silence in public school so the children can pray to the God of there faith. Personaly i choose send my daughter to private school but thats a whole other subject. I do feel it should be ok to display the ten commandments based on the fact that most of are laws and morals that we hold so dearly are based on them.

silver surfer
09-11-2003, 04:12 PM
RD you are right on the mark!
Judeo Christian values are alive today, and they can be seen in the everyday lives and dealings of people. Unfortunately, the best of people is often seen during horrendous events.
If I were to impose fundemental Christian ideals on my students, it would no doubt create religious tension from the Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, Catholic, Jewish, and every other religious strand of my students. By the way, these world religions, including Confucianism, Daoism, among others, do teach the basics of right and wrong.
The once darkened line that separated right and wrong, has been so lightened, that it is hard to see anymore. I see this evident from students taunting one another, cheating on homework and tests, downloading term papers, disrespect, and an overall apathy that education will get you ahead in life. By the way, some parents model this behavior.
Teaching at a school where the majority of the students are first and second generation immigrants, who are on welfare or free lunch,(yes, even in the 714) gives me a unique perspective on the diversity of our state. Many of you in other areas may not see this..other than on T.V., or what you may read in the newspaper. The Christian values of right and wrong do exist in the other religions and cultures.
The problem is convincing students that money is not more important then citizenship, civic duty, and value to your community. For educators in a Title I school, this is a daunting task, at best. Their story is one of surviving from paycheck to paycheck.
Prayer in the school is not the only solution. I do my part to motivate, encourage and teach my students to become better writers, readers and citizens. The other sixty percent must come from parents and the students. The erosion of our schools and society can not be blamed solely on the lack of school prayer and the educational system.
[ September 11, 2003, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: silver surfer ]

CA Stu
09-11-2003, 04:52 PM
I think personal spirituality is more important than organized religion. i.e., my Karma ran over your dogma :D
And I wholeheartedly agree with the teacher that stated that it's not the school's job to teach morals and values, that falls on the parents.
Thanks
CA Stu <-- just pawn in game of life :confused:

TahitiSteve
09-11-2003, 06:06 PM
The other sixty percent must come from parents and the students. The erosion of our schools and society can not be blamed solely on the lack of school prayer and the educational system. Unfortunately, with government taking most of peoples income, in most families both parents are working these days, they have little time (or not enough energy) to pass on moral values to their children. Public schools are becoming more morally relativistic, to not offend anyone. Simple faith based moralities are seen as empty dogma to much of todays youth. Kids need moral guidance, be it based in religion or not, and they are not getting it.
On the other hand I agree with much of what RD said above, blind faith is often behind the most atrocious of acts, skepticism is healthy. Do you think 9/11 would have occurred if governments of the Arab world were secular? Was Christianity peaceful when enforced by government?
A moment of silence, or voluntary prayer is not going to do anything to reverse the moral chaos of todays youth. Moral teaching is needed, but I believe we all recognise that government cannot and should not provide that. YOUR morality is not perfect, nor is mine, and none of them should be state sponsored, our own version of Al Queda would soon follow.
There is nothing wrong with teaching morality, but for government to do so is a violation of the rights of those consumers who disagree with the government sponsored morality. Getting the government out of education, and the ensueing expansion of private education will lead to a pluralism, rather than a void of moral guidance, each competing and enhancing the others.

mickeyfinn
09-11-2003, 06:41 PM
Sounds like some of you are missing the point. No one is asking to teach christianity in our schools. The point is the Federal government is standing behind and preventing people from allowing the school system to acknowledge religion and offer people the opportunity to have a moment of silence for whatever purpose they would like. I believe that it is true that prayer in school will not help people learn, improve grades or in any way improve conditions in the school systems today. The point that I believe that most of us are trying to make is that:
School systems are typically set up and operated by local governments where the desires of the smaller cross section of people can be more effectively heard and responded too. If the local jurisdictions wish to allow a moment of time, or even allow someone of any religion as long as time is given equally to come in and speak to a group of students it is currently not allowed. If a state or local government desires to allow a government icon such as the ten commandments in a public place it is not the federal governments place to tell them they can not. I do not believe for one minute that any of you other than for the sake of arguement believe this is the way our founding fathers intended for government to operate. The extremely broad interpretation of the separation of church and state is in a large part what has allowed some the country to begin to degenerate into what it seems destined to become. If you are an atheist that is your right under our laws and you are free to believe that. Chances are that if you are an atheist your beliefs lean toward the theory of evolution and that is ok to teach in our public schools. If you are a christian or a member of some other religion it is not allowed for the teachers to teach your viewpoints on devine creation. Church used to be an important part of life in this country. Regardless of what religion you belong to the vast majority of them still hold some of the same core values as to how you should treat other people. Even the Islamic religion preaches a peaceful existence. It is the extremist in every group who cause problems. The answer to our problems does not come in the form of school vouchers. The answers come in the form of states rights and allowing the people to rule themselves. This is the whole reason we have state governments. If the federal government is going to continue to put their nose into the decisions that rightly should be reserved for the states then lets all save a lot of money and just totally abandon that level of government completely, let the feds decide everything for us. It doesn't matter what denomination the founding fathers were. It doesn't matter if in the course of our day to day business we happen to offend some poor bastard moving to this country who doesn't like the way we run it. They always have to option to LEAVE!. This country was not created as an asylum where anyone could come to avoid being offended. This country was founded as a place where people could come and live with freedoms not available in other countries, including the right to practice or not practice the religion of their choosing. Prayer in school is not the correction that this country needs. Allowing prayer in schools is one indicator that the country is starting to turn around and get back on the path that was originally intended.

mike37
09-11-2003, 06:57 PM
mickeyfinn:
Sounds like some of you are missing the point. No one is asking to teach christianity in our schools. The point is the Federal government is standing behind and preventing people from allowing the school system to acknowledge religion and offer people the opportunity to have a moment of silence for whatever purpose they would like. I believe that it is true that prayer in school will not help people learn, improve grades or in any way improve conditions in the school systems today. The point that I believe that most of us are trying to make is that:
School systems are typically set up and operated by local governments where the desires of the smaller cross section of people can be more effectively heard and responded too. If the local jurisdictions wish to allow a moment of time, or even allow someone of any religion as long as time is given equally to come in and speak to a group of students it is currently not allowed. If a state or local government desires to allow a government icon such as the ten commandments in a public place it is not the federal governments place to tell them they can not. I do not believe for one minute that any of you other than for the sake of arguement believe this is the way our founding fathers intended for government to operate. The extremely broad interpretation of the separation of church and state is in a large part what has allowed some the country to begin to degenerate into what it seems destined to become. If you are an atheist that is your right under our laws and you are free to believe that. Chances are that if you are an atheist your beliefs lean toward the theory of evolution and that is ok to teach in our public schools. If you are a christian or a member of some other religion it is not allowed for the teachers to teach your viewpoints on devine creation. Church used to be an important part of life in this country. Regardless of what religion you belong to the vast majority of them still hold some of the same core values as to how you should treat other people. Even the Islamic religion preaches a peaceful existence. It is the extremist in every group who cause problems. The answer to our problems does not come in the form of school vouchers. The answers come in the form of states rights and allowing the people to rule themselves. This is the whole reason we have state governments. If the federal government is going to continue to put their nose into the decisions that rightly should be reserved for the states then lets all save a lot of money and just totally abandon that level of government completely, let the feds decide everything for us. It doesn't matter what denomination the founding fathers were. It doesn't matter if in the course of our day to day business we happen to offend some poor bastard moving to this country who doesn't like the way we run it. They always have to option to LEAVE!. This country was not created as an asylum where anyone could come to avoid being offended. This country was founded as a place where people could come and live with freedoms not available in other countries, including the right to practice or not practice the religion of their choosing. Prayer in school is not the correction that this country needs. Allowing prayer in schools is one indicator that the country is starting to turn around and get back on the path that was originally intended. good post mickeyfinn

silver surfer
09-11-2003, 06:59 PM
The Supreme Court ruling:
The case attracted enormous interest. Three briefs of amici curiae, (friend of the court) were filed by organizations urging that the Regents' prayer be declared unconstitutional. These were: the American Ethical Union, a group of organizations led by the American Jewish Committee, and a second group led by the Synagogue Council of America. Briefs in favor of upholding the constitutionality of the prayer were the Attorneys General of 22 states: Arkansas, Arizona, Connecticut, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Louisiana, Maryland, Mississippi, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, North Dakota, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Texas and West Virginia.
The Board of Education argued that:
The prayer was so generally worded that it was different from ordinary prayers; it was based on the country's "spiritual heritage."
No student was compelled to recite the prayer. They could be excused from the classroom, or stay in class and remain silent. The Board adopted a regulation stating that: "Neither teachers nor any school authority shall comment on participation or nonparticipation...nor suggest or request that any posture or language be used or dress be worn or be not used or not worn." 3
The court upheld the claim of the parents. They ruled that the Regents' prayer was unconstitutional. Mr. Justice Black delivered the opinion of the court. He wrote:
"...daily classroom invocation of God's blessings as prescribed in the Regents' prayer is a religious activity."
Under the First Amendment, governments cannot "...compose official prayers for any group of the American people to recite as a part of a religious program carried on by government."
Many of early colonists were motivated to leave England and seek religious freedom in America. A major cause of emigration in the 16th century was the British Government's involvement in the creation of the Church of England's Book of Common Prayer.
At the time that the Constitution was written, many Americans became aware "of the dangers of a union of Church and State....They knew the anguish, hardship and bitter strife that could come when zealous religious groups struggled with one another to obtain the Government's stamp of approval... Our Founders were no more willing to let the content of their prayers and their privilege of praying whenever they pleased be influenced by the ballot box than they were to let these vital matters of personal conscience depend upon the succession of monarchs. The First Amendment was added to the Constitution to stand as a guarantee that neither the power nor the prestige of the Federal Government would be used to control, support or influence the kinds of prayer the American people can say -- that the people's religions must not be subjected to the pressures of government for change each time a new political administration is elected to office."
"When the power, prestige and financial support of government is placed behind a particular religious belief, the indirect coercive pressure upon religious minorities to conform to the prevailing officially approved religion is plain."
The First Amendment rests on the "belief that a union of government and religion tends to destroy government and to degrade religion."
History shows that many people lose "their respect for any religion that had relied upon the support of government to spread its faith."
"It is neither sacrilegious nor antireligious to say that each separate government in this country should stay out of the business of writing or sanctioning official prayers and leave that purely religious function to the people themselves and to those the people choose to look to for religious guidance."
From Religion in US Public Schools

mickeyfinn
09-11-2003, 07:04 PM
silver surfer:
The Supreme Court ruling:
So what is your point? Just proof that the Courts are too liberal with their interpretation. Can't tell from your post whether you agree or disagree with the courts ruling. I think we are all aware of the outcome.

silver surfer
09-11-2003, 07:11 PM
My point: Prayer should be kept at home and less government regulation.

fear the turtle
09-12-2003, 05:35 AM
Good reading. :)

mickeyfinn
09-12-2003, 10:30 AM
I do not believe that the schools should be teaching religion period. I do believe there is nothing wrong with allowing the schools to talk about the fact that most (all?) religions believe in some form of devine creation and that all of the scientific evidence supporting evolution does not mean that it is absolute fact. The theory of evolution simply is a collection of data that indicates that it is possible.I believe the schools can contribute to the kids understanding of other religions by a frank and open discussion. Allowing the kids to discuss the religous beliefs they share can go a long way toward allowing people from diverse circumstances to understand one another. I guess the equal time thing really is a poor idea but when a childs parent comes into career day and can not discuss the most important part of his/her job because it relates to religion is just wrong. Maybe instead of allowing all religions equal time what I am saying is that rather than being illegal perhaps the children in the classes should all be allowed an open and frank discussion of the beliefs they hold. I do not want to get into the idea that schools must schedule a representative of all religions into the school. Bottom line is the people of this country should be as open minded to the idea of people discussing religion as they expect the religious among us to be of accepting the fact that they have no faith in a devine being.

HotRod Sprint
09-15-2003, 07:35 PM
Omega,
Thanks for the post, God bless you, God bless Roscoe Bartlett, and God bless America.
Wish there were more like him.
And yes, I will contact my state reps
And yes, I will pray, and pray, and pray.
Rod