Israel

[MJ19]

This is a place for River Dave to dicuss a topic he's dieing to talk about..."ISRAEL"
Ladies and Gentleman put your hands together for the one and only Riiiiivvvveeerrrrrr Dave: :D

[miller19j]

RiverDave:
It was a quote that I pulled from United Press International.
It sais ISRAEL is going to start "targetting" (assasinating) what they believe to be terrorist suspects, on american soil. The entire article is on the first page of this thread and it starts. HEY MILLER, look what's coming to a location near you.
Read that, it's scary shit from our "ally." Sounds to me like there deploying there own terrorist cells into our nation, not fighting terrorism.
RD RD,
They are targeting suspected Terrorists not American civilians!
Yes It is wrong for them to come to our country and assonate people. But it is not all that different from what our CIA, The Russian KGB, Britain’s MI6, and many other intelligence agencies have been doing sense the start of man kind.

[NashvilleBound]

The MJ's vs. RD Here we go.....
argue

[scgms1]

I doubt anything that is done wouldn't be without the cooperation of our government. I don't think Israel is that stupid.

[miller19j]

RiverDave:
Same group of guys fired a missile into an apartment complex full of civillians. How can you say that there won't be civillian casualties?
So your saying your "ok" with Israel sending an elite group over here (not in cooperation with the U.S.) for the purpose of assasinations?
RD Yes It is wrong for them to come to our country and assonate people. No I am not saying it is OK But it is not any diffrent from what currently happens all over the world.
How many people do you think the Russians assonated on us soil during the cold war. This is not something new. It has been happening sense the times of the Pharos!

[MJ19]

RiverDave:
Same group of guys fired a missile into an apartment complex full of civillians. How can you say that there won't be civillian casualties?
RD I haven't done enough research on this for myself yet, so I'll kick back until I have more facts and more of an opinion...However, I didn't hear Miller say there wouldn't be civillian casualties, but rather I heard him said they were targeting suspected Terrorists. Again to me those are two totally different topics.
1) random killing of civilians
2) targeting terrorists which in the event kills some civilians

[miller19j]

NashvilleBound:
The MJ's vs. RD Here we go.....
argue I can win this war easily! I will have my troops cut off his supply of Beer and Pot Pies and he will surrender quicker than a Frenchman who sells white flags for a living. :D

[sandblasted]

you know what says it all?
Friggin Palestinians and other arabs dancing in the street after 9-11!!
I didn't see any Israelis dancing when 3000 of our people were killed...
I'll take Israel over the arabs anyday!
besides, they have nude beaches in Isreal :D !

[Jordy]

miller19j:
It has been happening sense the times of the Pharos! But has it also been happening since the time of the pharohs? :D

[Jordy]

MJ19:
1) random killing of civilians
2) targeting terrorists which in the event kills some civilians I'm not getting caught up in all this, but either way, if it's happening on American soil without our consent or awarness it's wrong.
Granted I'll agree with Miller (dammit I hate when I have to do that) and say that these kind of operations have been going on for a long time, however, I think the methods were a little more surgical and refined than wiping out city blocks to get one guy, although, that is one way of getting the job done.

[Blown 472]

Read all about it right here.http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/history/index.html

[Backtanner]

1. I don't see Israel as the "ally" the media portrays them as... USS Liberty, look into it.
2. Israel is badassed enough in that region to stand up for themselves without us standing behind them like some sort of big brother.
3. It's almost like watching a western with the Israelis(U.S Cavalry) moving in and relocating the Palestinians(Indians) to refugee camps(reservations) and expecting them to be happy about it. Only the Indians didn't get frustrated and go after the Brits.

[HighRoller]

Okay,I can't take it anymore.First off,the palestinians are terrorists.Secondly,Israel could destroy and/or displace them in about 30 seconds if we stopped meddling in that deal.We are the only thing keeping Israel from wiping the palestinians off the face of the earth.Third,why are the Palestinians claiming land they invaded and later lost is theirs to keep?Fourth,why does any world leader listen to Yassir Arafat?He has murdered 10 times more people than Osama bin Laden.Not to mention he was apparently confused after 9/11 when he got in line to donate blood when everyone knows his specialty is spilling it.

[Blown 472]

HighRoller:
Okay,I can't take it anymore.First off,the palestinians are terrorists.Secondly,Israel could destroy and/or displace them in about 30 seconds if we stopped meddling in that deal.We are the only thing keeping Israel from wiping the palestinians off the face of the earth.Third,why are the Palestinians claiming land they invaded and later lost is theirs to keep?Fourth,why does any world leader listen to Yassir Arafat?He has murdered 10 times more people than Osama bin Laden.Not to mention he was apparently confused after 9/11 when he got in line to donate blood when everyone knows his specialty is spilling it. Wow, what planet you living on, did you read any of the link I posted??

[RandyH]

I don't have any problems with Israel or the Jews except we pay a fortune to them. Sometimes I think it would be cheaper to give them some land in West Texas equal to the size of their country, move them over and let them pay taxes instead of take ours. :cool:

[MJ19]

Blown 472:
HighRoller:
Okay,I can't take it anymore.First off,the palestinians are terrorists.Secondly,Israel could destroy and/or displace them in about 30 seconds if we stopped meddling in that deal.We are the only thing keeping Israel from wiping the palestinians off the face of the earth.Third,why are the Palestinians claiming land they invaded and later lost is theirs to keep?Fourth,why does any world leader listen to Yassir Arafat?He has murdered 10 times more people than Osama bin Laden.Not to mention he was apparently confused after 9/11 when he got in line to donate blood when everyone knows his specialty is spilling it. Wow, what planet you living on, did you read any of the link I posted?? This link: http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/history/index.html
I have it bookmarked and I'll read it when I get back from class. Thanks! :)
It seems apparent to me that the US Mainstream Media has done a crappy job of giving un-bias information and keeping Americans honestly informed. frown

[Blown 472]

The voice of reason has spoken. :D

[miller19j]

Blown 472:
The voice of reason has spoken. :D Don’t mess with the teacher or she will slap you with a ruler! wink

[Blown 472]

miller19j:
Blown 472:
The voice of reason has spoken. :D Don’t mess with the teacher or she will slap you with a ruler! wink Really???? :D

[twistedpair]

NPR!?! Yeah, THERE'S an unbiased news outlet with no political agenda. :rolleyes:

[Blown 472]

twistedpair:
NPR!?! Yeah, THERE'S an unbiased news outlet with no political agenda. :rolleyes: Given, but what is on there is not something they made up.

[jjy73]

You guys (and gals) were chatting about Israel, so let me voice my opinion! First off, I agree that anything they do here in the US, should be with our governments knowlege. (Not like our gov't does not know almost everything that goes on here, anyhow) Secondly, why would anyone look at a Palestinian and respect them? What kind of "people" teach their children to HATE all people different from them. To me, that is what an animal does!! They are promised heaven, if they kill themselves in the name of "Allah". My question would be...How is bin laden and yassir arafat & saddam gonna get their? My answer...THEY WON'T!!!! I have no tolerance for people who kill innocents!! Thirdly, part of the reason our country has been so blessed by God has been b/c of our support for Israel. Throughout history, any nation which turns it back on Israel has gotten its just reward. DECIMATION and DESTRUCTION. I am Jewish by blood and AMERICAN by nationality!! The arabs are a race of terrorists, who one day, GOD will judge!!! GUARANTEED!!!!!

[bigq]

MJ19:
Blown 472:
HighRoller:
Okay,I can't take it anymore.First off,the palestinians are terrorists.Secondly,Israel could destroy and/or displace them in about 30 seconds if we stopped meddling in that deal.We are the only thing keeping Israel from wiping the palestinians off the face of the earth.Third,why are the Palestinians claiming land they invaded and later lost is theirs to keep?Fourth,why does any world leader listen to Yassir Arafat?He has murdered 10 times more people than Osama bin Laden.Not to mention he was apparently confused after 9/11 when he got in line to donate blood when everyone knows his specialty is spilling it. Wow, what planet you living on, did you read any of the link I posted?? This link: http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/history/index.html
I have it bookmarked and I'll read it when I get back from class. Thanks! :)
It seems apparent to me that the US Mainstream Media has done a crappy job of giving un-bias information and keeping Americans honestly informed. :( You really need to go farther back in history then that NPR report is.This is not the full History of the land only the recent dispute.That area has changed hands many times, It is Holy land for two different religions.Read further back.

[Blown 472]

jjy73:
You guys (and gals) were chatting about Israel, so let me voice my opinion! First off, I agree that anything they do here in the US, should be with our governments knowlege. (Not like our gov't does not know almost everything that goes on here, anyhow) Secondly, why would anyone look at a Palestinian and respect them? What kind of "people" teach their children to HATE all people different from them. To me, that is what an animal does!! They are promised heaven, if they kill themselves in the name of "Allah". My question would be...How is bin laden and yassir arafat & saddam gonna get their? My answer...THEY WON'T!!!! I have no tolerance for people who kill innocents!! Thirdly, part of the reason our country has been so blessed by God has been b/c of our support for Israel. Throughout history, any nation which turns it back on Israel has gotten its just reward. DECIMATION and DESTRUCTION. I am Jewish by blood and AMERICAN by nationality!! The arabs are a race of terrorists, who one day, GOD will judge!!! GUARANTEED!!!!! blah blah blah blah, not to be a dick but the religon card dont fly with me, read your history.

[bigq]

jjy73:
The arabs are a race of terrorists, who one day, GOD will judge!!! GUARANTEED!!!!! I take it you know about there religion and if you do you know killing and suicide are highly forbidden, so How can you jusify calling a whole race/group of people as being terrorists.Sounds a little racist to me.

[Jordy]

OK, now I have to get back into this...
jjy73:
(Not like our gov't does not know almost everything that goes on here, anyhow)You truly believe that? There is an awful lot of real estate to be keeping an eye on. I'm sure they know alot of what's going on, but I disagree with the "almost everything" part. Look at the first bombing of the Trade Center and Oklahoma City for example. Kind of blind sided by those. Hell, look at 9/11 as a glaring ommission.
Secondly, why would anyone look at a Palestinian and respect them? We'll get to this in a minute.
What kind of "people" teach their children to HATE all people different from them. To me, that is what an animal does!!This combined with the previous statement makes you no better than they are. What kind of contact have you had with a Palestinian to judge them like that? Perhaps they have been judged like that for so many hundreds of years that hate is their only defense. I'm not saying it's right, but you're doing the same thing you accuse them of right now.
Thirdly, part of the reason our country has been so blessed by God has been b/c of our support for Israel. Throughout history, any nation which turns it back on Israel has gotten its just reward. DECIMATION and DESTRUCTION.[/b]
You're kidding right? The US has been around for a couple hundred years, and I'm pretty sure that we didn't become the babysitters of the world up until, hell I'm going to guess, the last 50-60 years??? I could be off a bit, but my point is, we did right well without Israel or any of the other 3rd world countries sucking our billion dollar tit for over a hundred years.
[b] I am Jewish by blood and AMERICAN by nationality!! The arabs are a race of terrorists, who one day, GOD will judge!!! GUARANTEED!!!!! Seems to me from this letter that you're as much of a hate monger as the people you accuse of being such. Broad generalizations broadcast in an open forum and applied to an entire race? Seems to me the Klan works the same way.

[rivercrazy]

Perhaps, if the people of Isreal treated the Palestinians like human beings instead of slaves they might all get along a little better.
I'm not saying that what the Palestinians do in terms of suicide bombings, etc is justified. But they get treated like dog shit over there.
Both sides need to take a long look in the mirror and try to respect each other a little more. It would at least be a good start

[Backtanner]

Isn't it funny how all these nutcases are always winning the Nobel Peace Prize. Several former israeli prime ministers and even Yasser Arafat are past winners. Makes you think the place must a practical Disneyland. I'm sure Saddam is at the top of next year's running.

[sandblasted]

This is interesting. According to Forbes, Yassir Arafat is worth $300 million.
http://forbes.com/forbes/2003/0317/134.html
What I can't figure out is how the leader of a people with no oil or any other export product to speak of is worth this much money..I guess terrorism pays well!
The whole Isreal/Arab conflict will never be decided until one group drives the other out of the area...40 years of hatred on both sides will never be resolved..I mean how do you live next door in peace to someone who killed your child or your father..You don't!
Personally, I think the Isrealis should drive the Palestinians into Jordan and be done with it. The 2 groups will never co-exist in the same land. There's just too much hatred on both sides.

[miller19j]

The 2 groups will never co-exist in the same land You are completely correct in that statement.
I watched a program not that long ago where they interviewed Palestinian and Jewish kids in schools in Israel, and asked what they thought of each other. They both hated the other group and said they were evil and needed to be killed. Children were saying this!
When they have a hatred that goes through all the generations this strongly unfortunately there is no chance for peace.

[Jordy]

sandblasted:
40 years of hatred on both sides will never be resolved..
Personally, I think the Isrealis should drive the Palestinians into Jordan and be done with it. 40 years? These same groups have been battling in one form or another for I'd guess close to 1000 years now, if not more.
And leave my name out of this. :D

[mbrown2]

sandblasted:
Personally, I think the Isrealis should drive the Palestinians into Jordan and be done with it. That's it...get them over to Jordy's place and get talking over a couple of beers....I hear they are velocity stack friendly people too.

[mbrown2]

From a Hot Boater's perspective with a bad ass 600 engine...I think this thing is pretty simple...I don't know much about either culture, and I don't believe what the news tells me, but all other things being equal (ie: both sides kill innocent people to complete their mission) I rank them in the following manner:
1. One group does not cover up their women and has nude beaches.
2. One group covers up there women and will beat them if they are uncovered.
You guess, who I am gonna side with??? :)

[Jordy]

mbrown2:
That's it...get them over to Jordy's place and get talking over a couple of beers....I hear they are velocity stack friendly people too. I have room for a band or two of nomads, but I'm only on half an acre. It is horse property so I guess they could bring thier camels too...
Jordy "The Giver" :D

[cigarette1]

Remember the saying "All is fair in Love and War"
The Palestiens are at war and their warfare is Terrorisim. Terrorisim is powerful and until we learn to fight it effectivly, they will win some battles. When you don't have the means for conventional warfare, you come up with something else. No one here can deny that if there were an uprising on our soil and you were on the lesser side you wouldn't resort to tactics that others would classify as terrorist tactics.
Some think terrorist tactics are barbaric, but what did the Brits think of the revolutionaries when they shot BEFORE they saw the whites of their eyes.
Things change ... adjustments must be made
I guess my motto still applies:
Don't Hate the Playas' .... Hate the Game
[ February 28, 2003, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: cigarette1 ]

[bigq]

cigarette1:
Remember the saying "All is fair in Love and War"
The Palestiens are at war and their warfare is Terrorisim. Terrorisim is powerful and until we learn to fight it effectivly, they will win some battles. When you don't have the means for conventional warfare, you come up with something else. No one here can deny that if there were an uprising on our soil and you were on the lesser side you wouldn't resort to tactics that others would classify as terrorist tactics.
Some think terrorist tactics are barbaric, but what did the Brits think of the revolutionaries when they shot BEFORE they saw the whites of their eyes.
Things change ... adjustments must be made
I guess my motto still applies:
Don't Hate the Playas' .... Hate the Game Actually, if you think about it none of that is terrorist actions, they all know they are in a war so I guess you can call them all soldiers with different means to an end. I would think they don't need to strap a bomb to a body, but that has quit a physiological impact on your enemy don't you think. I would characterize sept. 11 as a terrorist attack along with the Oklahoma bombing. Terrorism is an act of violence to instill fear on unknowing innocent groups, organizations or countries to make a political statement of forcibly promote change through terror. At least from my simple little mind. :)
[ February 28, 2003, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: bigq ]

[totenhosen]

Basically the Israelies are doing to the Palenstians what we did to the Indians. They are fighting back the only way they can. It's war and sometimes people will say what your doing isn't fair. (I don't agree with purposely targeting civilians) Let's face it in war it's kill or be killed. If someone challenges me to a knife fight I'm gonna bring a gun.
In the end both sides are f-ing stupid. It's basically my god is better than yours. I thought religion was suppose to teach us tolerance and respect for others.

[rivercrazy]

Its what happens when you don't have seperation of church and state.... And 1st amendment rights
totenhosen:
Basically the Israelies are doing to the Palenstians what we did to the Indians. They are fighting back the only way they can. It's war and sometimes people will say what your doing isn't fair. (I don't agree with purposely targeting civilians) Let's face it in war it's kill or be killed. If someone challenges me to a knife fight I'm gonna bring a gun.
In the end both sides are f-ing stupid. It's basically my god is better than yours. I thought religion was suppose to teach us tolerance and respect for others.

[Jordy]

totenhosen:
I thought religion was suppose to teach us tolerance and respect for others. Apparently it does. That is, as long as the others worship the same god you do, otherwise apparently it's OK to shun and attack them. :confused:

[gnarley]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rivercrazy:
I thought religion was suppose to teach us tolerance and respect for others.
And whose religion is that? I find that most say to be tolerant but don't practice what they preach.
The sad truth is history has shown us that most religions are not tolerant of each other and show little respect for others choices. frown

[cigarette1]

jordanpaulk:
totenhosen:
I thought religion was suppose to teach us tolerance and respect for others. Apparently it does. That is, as long as the others worship the same god you do, otherwise apparently it's OK to shun and attack them. :confused: Even if it's the same God .... How about the Klan burning black churches :confused:

[CA Stu]

totenhosen:
I thought religion was suppose to teach us tolerance and respect for others. It certainly has done a great job of that, hasn't it?
argue argue argue
Like Rodney King said, Can't we all just hit the beer bong?
CA Stu

[Jordy]

cigarette1:
How about the Klan burning black churches :confused: The Klan is an intersting bunch. KKK desigated the original groups they were against, Kikes, Katholics and Kolored. Great intellectual bunch there.
Actually, if you go a little further in to religion in the Bibile Belt (Southern US) you'll find that there's not a lot of love lost between the Southern Baptists, Methodists and several other factions down there.
Religion is a funny thing. :D

[totenhosen]

Thats why I'm usually leery of people who say they are religious. Most cases they end up being a bunch of hypocrites. Just because they go to church on Sunday they think they can f-over people the rest of the week.

[Jordy]

Or maybe because they f&^k people over the rest of the week, they feel like they need to go to church on Sunday to make up for it. :D
I know quite a few businessmen like that. Seems the more religious they are, the harder they try and break it off in you.

[gnarley]

jordanpaulk:
Actually, if you go a little further in to religion in the Bible Belt (Southern US) you'll find that there's not a lot of love lost between the Southern Baptists, Methodists and several other factions down there.
Religion is a funny thing. :D That’s why I say keep religion out of my government; if they can't figure it out (religion) how the hell do we expect them to do any better if they help govern our country?

[Seadog]

Most religions have tolerance as a tenant, but religion is comprised of people that are not tolerant. For those of you who forgot,there was a time when catholics were not allowed in many places. Jews have been persecuted, the Mormons were persecuted and many other religions have been persecuted here in the USA.
The middle east crisis is because both sides are doing wrong. Greedy settlers are moving into Palestinian territory because of their divine right. The Arabs are big believers in the zionist plot to take over the world. They teach hatred to the children and as long as that continues, there will be no peace. I personnally sometimes wish that a nuke would destroy everything or divine intervention, or whatever. Then it becomes a tomb devoted to hatred instead of a religious battlefield. Unfortunately, my better side takes over and I realise that only a long and hard struggle will correct the problem. It will take several generations to fix and probably only after some horrendous disaster brings the leaders to their senses. One side getting rid of the other will not resolve it, because anililation of a group cannot happen and there will be other 'brother' groups that will rise and take up the battle cry.

[miller19j]

OOPS
[ March 03, 2003, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: miller19j ]

[Froggystyle]

RiverDave:
Screw the Israeli's. Let the Middle East have there way with them is what I say.
RD This is amazingly asinine.
If we walked out of the area. Just left them to fend for themselves and call it a day... we would be buying Israeli oil in a couple of months.
Israel is FAR more powerful than any state/country in the area. Their military is far mightier than any possible opposition. They would only lack the occupying force to maintain control of the new Israeli states. So, in a gesture of good faith, they would probably allow another country to occupy it for them.
In addition, they have nukes. Good ones. We walk, they feel threatened and cornered, and since it is "God's will" that they possess the holy land, glowing or not they will end up getting used.
Good idea... We will just let them do what they want. If it wasn't for our foreign policy and "meddling" Palestine would be a parking lot.

[Froggystyle]

RiverDave:
You know what Wes your absolutely right.
Amazingly Assanine and all.
RD :) I sense a disturbance in the force....

[Thunderbutt]

I vote for RiverDave for President, The Frogman for Vice-President. Miller19J, you can be the mouthpiece, but with duct tape on it

[Thunderbutt]

I know lets take up a colection so we can buy Miller19J a V-DRIVE.

[miller19j]

Thunderbutt:
Miller19J, you can be the mouthpiece, but with duct tape on it :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Froggystyle]

Thunderbutt:
I vote for RiverDave for President, The Frogman for Vice-President. Miller19J, you can be the mouthpiece, but with duct tape on it You have to be kidding me, right?
This is however a guaranteed way to get Dave shot by a zealot....
[ March 03, 2003, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: Froggystyle ]

[miller19j]

Thunderbutt:
I know lets take up a colection so we can buy Miller19J a V-DRIVE. What the Hell is your problem? Why do you care about what kind of dive I prefer?

[Thunderbutt]

miller19j:
Thunderbutt:
I know lets take up a colection so we can buy Miller19J a V-DRIVE. What the Hell is your problem? Why do you care about what kind of dive I prefer? I DON'T

[BUSTI]

Over the last several days I have read so much antisemitic bullshit that I can't take it any more! The Jews however not perfect have never exported terrorism into their neighbors land by encouraging their children to strap bombs to themselves and then indescriminately blow up other children at pizza parlors and or at bus stops. The Palestinian issue became an issue when Yasser Arafat decided that the destruction of Israel was more important than having a free home land. He has been offered a free Palestinian state by three Israeli Prime Ministers and as many American Presidents. He has rejected Palestinian statehood and broken every peace accord he ever signed. He has proven that he is a liar and not interested in what is now called land for peace. He has rejected several offers of over 97 percent of what he calls Palestinian land.
The area he wants is Jeruseluem! A loved city by all 3 of the major religions. But do you know the real reason for his wanting this city? It is for the airport that exists there and the control and use of it that would enable his suicide bombers to fly airliners into Tel Aviv 6 minutes from left off from Jerudeluem thats why he wants it. Also he would be able to smuggle enormous weapons into Palestine unchecked thats the biggest reason he has rejected the Israelis offer to provide him with a free Palestinian state. And lets look at the so called Jewish "Occupation" of Palestine. The Palestinians never had a country. If so who was their last President? They never had a country. Do your home work they were a fractured nationality whose lands were occupied and ruled at the point of a gun by other Arab nations! Thats right ...Egypt ruled the Gaza Strip as military dictators and provided no property nor personal rights to indiginous Palestinians. Egypt lost the right to occupy this land when they launched a vicious and sneak attack against the israeliis from the Gaza Strip 35 years ago when the Jews kicked the shit out of them and all of the Arabs that tried to destroy Isael. The West Bank including Jeruselum was occupied by Jordan and all though they did extend more personal rights to the Palestinians than the Egyptians did these rights did not include self determination, freedom of speech and or the right to own property... all was subject to the King of Jordan. Jordanian soviet built tanks were the first tanks to occupy the Holy City of Jeruselum! The Golan Heights where the majority of the Palestinians lived at the time was occupied by Syria and deffinitely at the point of a tank cannon. Almost the entire territory of what is now called the Palestinian area was ruled by foriegn Arab dictators and at no time did any body in the world ever cry for the freedom of the people there!. It was only after the Jews kicked the shit out of all the Arabs in two differnt wars that the Arabs started did the israeliis say enough is enough! We will control the lands around our borders so as to never be attacked by Egypt, Syria, and Jordan again.
Only after the area was controlled by the Jews did Yasser Ararfat create the Palestinian Liberation Organization!. He didn't have the balls to create it when the Arabs controlled Palestine as he would have been shot on the spot for voicing his desire for a free Palestine. Only under a civilized free society like Israel could the PLO even exist. The Palestinians have had more personal freedom under the Israeliis than they ever did uder Arab rule. If 24 months ago Arafat had not called for a infatatah(sp)? calling for the latest rampage of suicide bombers both sides would still be living in relative peace.
Those of you that weep for the Palestinians now do so because you hate Jews! Be honest! If you were really championing Arab soveriegnty so you insinuate why aren't you crying for the Lebanese? That country is torn apart from civil war and occupation from from a foriegn invader. Thats right syria occupies Lebanon with tahks and more armed uniformed personal than the Israeliis do in Palestine. Did you know that Syria has killed more Lebanese freedom fighters seeking to rid their country of invading Syrians than have died in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. But that never seems to get reported. The only deaths that get reported are the deaths of Palestinians at the hands of Jewish defense forces. Where is the indignation of what the Syrians are doing to what was a soveriegn nation that did have its freedom and its own self determing government? I guess if its at the bloody hands of other Arabs dead Arabs really aren't important to the world. Dead Arabs are really of no consequence morally to the antisemites of the world only if those dead Arabs can further the hatred of those that are against the Jews.
Lets compare the Arab societies of the world to Israel and lets see who really deserves support. There are over 24 Soveriegn Arab nations. How many of these nations allow for self determing government. NOT ONE! (SORRY MISSED A KEY STROKE AND POSTED PREMATURELY) How many Jewish states are there? One and its free. In any Arab country can a Jewish person own land or voice his opinion opposing the government? Not without getting shot. But in Israel Arabs can run for office and currently hold seats in Parliment. They also can own land and businesses. In fact Amnesty International reports that Palestinians actually have more personal freedom livimg in Israel than they do in any other country including their own country of origin. When the Israeli defence forces regretably kill Palestinian civilians as collateral damage do you see Jews dancing in the streets celebrating the deaths. No in fact the Jewish government is openly criticized by the Jewish press and angry debate occurs in the government over the tragedy. Not with the Arabs! Like pagan savages they dance and celebrate the slaughter of innocent lives. The cowardly Palestinians that wage a terrorist war hide amongst the civilian population and the use of tanks and special forces so brutally is the fault of the Palestinians not the Jews. Every Arab nation restricts its populations ability to travel however with the exception of those people not able to document their legal(noncriminal status) travel through out Israel is free to all!!! Thats why the piece of shit terrorist is free to board public buses and go into shopping malls and pizza parlors so easily and blow up Jewish children. Only in a free society can the terrorist have the freedom to wage such savagery... don't you get it! Because of the violence over the last 2 years the Palestians will not have soveriegn nation in our life time and they don't deserve one! Once they can join the ranks of civilized peoples maybe then. They will have a free state that I predict...but a soveriegn nation that is next to impossible now. You ask how can they be free with out their soveriegnty? Well Puerto Rico is not a soveriegn nation but any body deny that those people don't have their freedom to live their lives and own their own property and pursue their own happiness? The people of Irag have a soverign nation but are any of the Iraqi people free? Only those that have been lucky to escape to America. There isn't one free Arab country. Let me ask you this how can 30 million Jews surrounded by 250 million angry Arabs threaten the security of those Arabs. The answer is simple they don't! The Arabs are just continuing the hatred of Jews that has existed for thousands of years. Arabs that can escape their countries do and they come America. Jews that leave other nations overwhelmingly choose israel first however Israel can't take them all so many of them come to America. The Jews have faced graver odds and I am convinced they will prevail agin as they have for thousands of years.
What would you have Israel do? Give in to 250 million people sworn to destroy them? Lets say you were incharge of israel what would be your bright ides for peace? They have already offered land for peace. And they keep their word for land for peace...just ask the Egyptians and the Strians. the Egyptians got back the Sinai from the Jews and Syrians got most of the Golan Heights back as well.
Personally I think most of you that have spewed anti Israel hate on these boards have either listened to leftist puke college instructors who find it chic to be antisemetic or you can not clearly compare the Jews to the Arabs because you probably hate Jews. How can an educated person believe that the arabs that inslave their own people under the threat of death by military dictators like saddam or religious zealots ever constue the facts that the Jews are wrong and the arabs right. Ask your self this other than in attempt to defend themselves aginst plo homicide bombers have you ever known Jews to kill hindreds of people indescriminately like mad bombers?
And referencing somebody who earlier said that our policies are wrong in the middle east. did you know the US gives as much aid to Egypt as we do israel is that wrong nobody bitches about that.
[ March 03, 2003, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: BUSTI ]

[Blown 472]

You must be pretty tight with them to know what they want to do, bring in weapons? fly planes into stuff??? You are right we all hate them and it is a plan to whipe out the jews, please.
The deal with Lebbanon and Syria, is not funded by my tax dollars, does not bring hate and death to our country, Yes, it sucks too.
[ March 03, 2003, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: Blown 472 ]

[miller19j]

So RD,
What do you think about Chinese Jews? :D
(The above post is a feeble attempt at humor by its author.)

[Blown 472]

miller19j:
So RD,
What do you think about Chinese Jews? :D
(The above post is a feeble attempt at humor by its author.) Me no rikie matso's me. :D

[Mandelon]

What would happen if the US just pulled all of our guys out of every country? Simply packed up one day and came home. Closed the bases, picked up all the goods...No more aid dollars, no more economic help, no more protection?
What would become of those countries? I'm not suggesting that we really do it, just wondered.

[Blown 472]

Mandelon:
What would happen if the US just pulled all of our guys out of every country? Simply packed up one day and came home. Closed the bases, picked up all the goods...No more aid dollars, no more economic help, no more protection?
What would become of those countries? I'm not suggesting that we really do it, just wondered. Hummmm, we could put the money into our school systems, pull our economy up, feed hungry people, etc etc.

[miller19j]

Blown 472:
[QUOTE]]Hummmm, we could put the money into our school systems, pull our economy up. We could do the same by getting rid of Welfare!

[totenhosen]

I agree with RD in that why are we sending so much money to Israel if all we get is a big pain in the ass for it. I would like to know what we get in return for it. It's a pretty simple question.

[Thunderbutt]

miller19j:
So RD,
What do you think about Chinese Jews? :D
(The above post is a feeble attempt at humor by its author.) They're ok as long as they have a V-DRIVE
( CAN I HAVE SOME HUMOR TOO )

[Mandelon]

totenhosen:
I agree with RD in that why are we sending so much money to Israel if all we get is a big pain in the ass for it. I would like to know what we get in return for it. It's a pretty simple question. Doctors, Lawyers, Delis, Movie Producers, Jewelry Merchants...... :D :D

[rrrr]

"Personally I think most of you that have spewed anti Israel hate on these boards have either listened to leftist puke college instructors who find it chic to be antisemetic or you can not clearly compare the Jews to the Arabs because you probably hate Jews."
Anti Isreal hate? Spew? Where do you get that shit? Sounds like the victim defense made so popular by Jesse Jackson. If I say something critical about Isreal it has everything to do with politics and not a damn thing about race or religion. Every post in this thread is like that too.
If I had my way, the United States wouldn't give Isreal or Egypt 25 cents.

[rivercrazy]

rrrr:
If I had my way, the United States wouldn't give Isreal or Egypt 25 cents. !!!!!! :D
[ March 03, 2003, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: rivercrazy ]

[bigq]

Mandelon:
What would happen if the US just pulled all of our guys out of every country? Simply packed up one day and came home. Closed the bases, picked up all the goods...No more aid dollars, no more economic help, no more protection?
What would become of those countries? I'm not suggesting that we really do it, just wondered. World War III !!! like it our not we help stabilize different regions of the world. I would agree with Froggy as to the outcome if we stopped medilling in the mid east. They already tried taking over Israel before and look what that got them.
By the way, no offense RD, but I wouldn't want you anywhere near the White house.

[Schiada76]

The state of Israel has every right to exist. Simply put, it was formed and exists today through only one means. FORCE Just like every single country on earth. You have to admire people that are committed WITHOUT being psychotic fanatics. :D

[BUSTI]

When I read somebody posting and implying and saying that the Jews should get whats coming to them by their middle east neighbors than to me it stinks of Jew bashing not politics. How could anybody criticize the Jews for defending themselves against suicide bombers that kill woman and children and call it politics? And since when has spending money to support the only bastion of freedom in the middle east along with doing the right thing ever become a pain in the ass? Do you measure whats right in the world by how much it costs you. If your neighbor was being butchered by some terrorist would fail to come to his aid because it cost you money? If you saw some thief stealung some fellow boater's rig and leaving his family on the side of the road to die would you not want to get involved because it may cost you some money? Thats bull shit! You would get involved! The cost of doing whats right can't be measured in dollar and cents. I am a diehard capitalist and your reference to Jesse Jackson is wrong....he is a puke nonproducing collectivist victacrat whom I loath!!! The Jews only want the freedom to defend themselfes! Unlike the back stabbing European ingrates they don't expect US boys to die for them! They are a brave people capable of dying for themselves...but they do appreciate our military aid. And believe me we would rather send them money and have them deal with those f&*$ing Islamic mystic assholes than to have that fight over here.
I do not believe that we should be sending money to that Egyptian ass hole Mubarik. But once again I only mentioned it because some people seem to bitch first about the money we send to the Jews and nothing about what we send Arab nations untill they are pressed. Israel is a great nation! The Arabs are a great menace to all civilzed nations. I for one am proud that America stands up for Jews! Their values are not unique..we in America share them. Judeo-Chritian values coupled to the creation CAPITALISM is and was a uniquely American invention. We taught it to rest of the world. The Jews more so than anyother country in the world are more american like. They do right thing no matter how unpopular it may be. They do not compromise their values just because it may cost them some money or appear to be a pain in the ass! If I had to go to war and I couldn't have a YANKEE ant my side I would take a Israeli any time!

[twistedpair]

"Jesse Jackson ....is a puke nonproducing collectivist victacrat......"
That is quite possibly the best description of that shakedown artist that I have ever heard.

[bigq]

BUSTI:
Personally I think most of you that have spewed anti Israel hate on these boards have either listened to leftist puke college instructors who find it chic to be antisemetic or you can not clearly compare the Jews. Well said http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/winking/winking15.gif

[totenhosen]

So Busti, would you say that it is okay for Israel to continually break UN resolutions the same way that Iraq does?

[Blown 472]

totenhosen:
So Busti, would you say that it is okay for Israel to continually break UN resolutions the same way that Iraq does? And tell the un **** you, we are not letting you in to inspect or look at anything we are doing?? if they are so just in what they are doing why the attitude??

[Froggystyle]

RiverDave:
Well instead of even bothering to try and argue this out even further. (Which I will if ya want)
I'll answer your questions.
If your neighbor was being butchered by some terrorist would fail to come to his aid because it cost you money?So long as the Terrorists butchered that god damn barking cocker spaniel with them, I'd probably pay him.
If you saw some thief stealung some fellow boater's rig and leaving his family on the side of the road to die would you not want to get involved because it may cost you some money?What kinda boat are we talking about here? Is it a V-Drive?
RD :D That adds up...

[Froggystyle]

RiverDave:
Wes, I can honestly say that, that (the post above) is the first post I think you've ever posted where I didn't clearly understand the meaning.
Long story short, what does it add up too? (What do you mean?)
RD Someone asked a serious question, trying to make a point, and you were either A) trying to be funny and avoid answering the question for whatever reason, and felt that an attempt at humor would shift the fire somewhere else...
or B) You would not help your neighbor in need. You would not step to the defense of someone who needed it, and you would not take an opportunity to right a wrong.
It shows me that you are missing the point completely. America is doing getting in the middle of a fight because it is the right thing to do. We have an opportunity as the biggest kid on the block to stop wrongs. In this case, we can prevent wrongs from ever occurring. I don't need a gun pointed at me to know that one is a threat. Reacting to it is the difference between an unarmed villain and a gunshot wound.

[Blown 472]

Froggystyle:
RiverDave:
Wes, I can honestly say that, that (the post above) is the first post I think you've ever posted where I didn't clearly understand the meaning.
Long story short, what does it add up too? (What do you mean?)
RD Someone asked a serious question, trying to make a point, and you were either A) trying to be funny and avoid answering the question for whatever reason, and felt that an attempt at humor would shift the fire somewhere else...
or B) You would not help your neighbor in need. You would not step to the defense of someone who needed it, and you would not take an opportunity to right a wrong.
It shows me that you are missing the point completely. America is doing getting in the middle of a fight because it is the right thing to do. We have an opportunity as the biggest kid on the block to stop wrongs. In this case, we can prevent wrongs from ever occurring. I don't need a gun pointed at me to know that one is a threat. Reacting to it is the difference between an unarmed villain and a gunshot wound. By suppling them F16's and attack helicopters?

[HOSS]

Israel? Thinkin` of movin` there just as soon as this parade finishes and I finish off this bottle of Jack black.
Mardi Gras a mutha! Thinkin of you boyz at work

[Froggystyle]

Well, that is your credo... cover up lack of content or knowledge with sarcasm. God knows it is better to throw a quip in as you shut the door than stand your ground and commit to a debate.
At least you drop in that last word.

[Blown 472]

Froggystyle:
Well, that is your credo... cover up lack of content or knowledge with sarcasm. God knows it is better to throw a quip in as you shut the door than stand your ground and commit to a debate.
At least you drop in that last word. ??????????? I think RD has presented few very good points, he has a point about beating his head agianst the wall thou.

[Froggystyle]

Blown 472:
I think RD has presented few very good points, he has a point about beating his head agianst the wall thou. I would agree. My point is that educated debate is not something that needs to have a winner declared. Logic and perception dictate the victor, not concession.
Opinion is valid as well, but it must be based in some form on fact, otherwise it is heresay and irrelevant. While I respect Dave's opinion, and will fight to the death over his right to express it, I disagree wholeheartedly with it, and I can only draw the conclusion that we are looking at two completely different set of facts to have drawn such different conclusions.
I feel that the set of facts that I have been privy to puts me in a better position to discuss the military capabilities of various countries. I cannot discuss some of those sources, nor elaborate on the facts, but to say that the vast majority of educated America does not know the whole story is an understatement.
I have associates who have been first-hand recipients of the barbarism that Iraq shows it's prisoners. I know for a fact that the empowered regime in that country has little or no respect for the Geneva convention, and likely has no respect for the UN's resolutions.
With regard to Israel... I am neither pro or anti Israel. What I will respond to, is that I think that in a region of utter chaos, and nearly pure corruption and greed, Israel has chosen the high road on many occasions. Their methods have left some tact to be desired, but when your adversary is willing to put a child in front of them as a shield, sometimes the child takes a bullet.
You don't see America bringing human shields to the battlefield. You don't see Israeli's hiding in mosques and markets fighting a war. The Palestinian terrorists have brought the war and it's retributions into their own culture, for the sake of public scruitiny. They are choosing to bring it into their homes and shops. By being a terrorist and going home to mama at night you make a conscious descision to put them at risk for your decisions.
If a country does not have the means to fight a war in a civilized manner, how on earth does it stand a chance trying to govern one? Or provide for public safety? Or build roads? Or levy taxes?
The people of Palestine are in the unfortunate position of being at the mercy of a madman who is choosing his path based on zealotry, not logic. He is, in a far different way albeit, doing the same thing Dave is talking about. If you continue banging your head against a wall, and dont' go anywhere, just do something and close the door on the problem.
Originally posted by RiverDave:
That's the one where no matter what you say your not going to change someones mind on the issue so ya just give up and leave it at that. Perhaps try to throw some humour in it on your way out the door...The problem doesn't go away. These issues have been troubling this region since Biblical times. Unless one side concedes defeat, there will be no winner peacefully. We are the only thing keeping Israel from leveling the region. They have plenty of motive, and loads of reasons. They also have the means. Arafat is cloaking himself in the goodwill of liberals who cannot see the game. They want to believe he is oppressed. Liberals love oppression. They want to solve the problem, but they are unwilling to see that he can only be controlled by one means... and discussion is not it.
You cannot talk reason with a man who has none. You just keep getting punched. The only way to stop them is to end the fight yourself. You need to decide who will be the victor. That is when it is good to carry a club.
My mom used to protect my younger brother from me at all expenses. We would wrestle, and do brother stuff, but never fight outright. It was prohibited. The problem was, he would torment and aggravate me and do it all under Mom's radar. I would never retaliate. That built up this animosity that you cannot imagine. I can imagine that is what Israel feels like. A poorly informed public opinion is keeping the PLO alive. They have all the means to squash it, but they are the only ones playing by the rules.
One day, something was said that went over the line. A line I might add that my brother thought could never be crossed. He got punched hard. I paid the price with Mom, but since that day we have a newfound respect for how far you can push someone who is in a stronger position to deal with it than you are.
Israel is going to end up saying "To hell with public opinion" and start punching unless Mom starts paying attention to what is really going on.
Dave represents Mom in this case. Someone who is unwilling or unable to seize all of the facts, not just the ones that are apparent. Sooner or later business gets taken care of, whether Mom approves or not, and when the dust settles it is inevitably for the better.
One week with a black eye and fat lip has allowed us to have many educated discussions since that day. I am very glad it happened.

[totenhosen]

froggystyle, you bring up a point in reards to Iraq not following U.N resolutions and that is one basis of many that our government is using to go to war with Iraq. How come pressure is not placed on Israel for their repeated violations of U.N. resolutions.
You also mentioned about the U.S. acting as a sort of police force to stop oppression in Iraq. I agree that this is a good idea but what about all the other countries in the world with similar problems that the U.S. does nothing about. I think this is a cop out because we are trully looking at our best interests. Our government should just admit it. That is why I pay taxes so taht the government will do what they think is in our best interests but please do give me that jsutice is needed to be served because its needed in many other places besides Iraq. But Iraq is definantely a threat that I think needs to be addressed but our arguments for it are two-sided.
You also mentioned that if a country doesn't have miltary might they probably should have no right to govern themselves. I say let them govern themselves and fail. This will only strengthen their reliance on others which in will allow us to better control them.

[BUSTI]

The Israeli Palestinian problem is simple to solve...however it will not be easy. The vast majority of civilians on both sides want peace. I am convinced that the Israeli government wants peace. I am not convinced that the Palestinian leadership wants peace. As long as Yasser Arafat speaks for the Palestinian people he will continue to encourage violence against the Jews because it is in his interest to. If suddenly he were to negotiate peace with the Jews he would stop getting all the attention from the international community that gives him power, influence and money. Oh yes the money! Did you know Yasser Arafat has a net worth of over 500 million dollars? This from a guy who has never had a paying job. What did he invent or what big deal did he close with Donald Trump that created such wealth?
He stole this money from bloody body parts of the Palestinian children he recruited to become suicide bombers for him. As their parents wept and they lied there blown to bloody bits this bastard reached into their pockets and stole their money. Money that well intentioned governments gave to the Palestinian people for their own common wealfare. Not the enrichment of murderous f^%ks like Arafat. Who wants to bet the day that asshole dies the Palestinians will start seriously talking peace with the Jews? The real problem that won't be easy to deal with are the religious zelots of Hamas and the Islamic Jihad mother f^%&*#rs that receive millions from the Iranians.
The rest of the Arab world wants (like Arafat) to keep their masses hating the Jews and waging war against the Jews as to blur the scrutiny of the microscope that would reveal the sickness of their corrupt governments. Every Arab nation enslaves its people denies basic human rights and every one of their economies is in shambles despite their oil revenues. As long as they can keep their people whooped up over the Jews they are less likely to turn on their masters who have failed them terribly. How does Israel solve a Palestinian problem when all the powers to be in the Arab world don't want the Palestinian issue to be solved?
I'll tell you how! And this gets to the not so easy part. REGIME CHANGE! THATS HOW! Through out the entire middle east. Every single Arab nation needs its corrupt murderous mystical F#$%ING asses blown of the planet and then the civilian Arabs need to be taught how to act like civilized people and hold free elections and develope their own self determining governmebt that will provide and insure for their personal freedom including the right to own property, freedom of speech, and the freedom of all people to worship as they see fit with out fear of being blown up or murdered just because they are a Jew or Christian!
Iraq is next! Iran should be next after them. Hell the Iranian people might beat us to the punch and linch those Ayatollah mothers before we do! Then we should stop proping up Egypt. Mubarik is a dictator and the sooner he goes the sooner Democratization of that country could start. Look Iraq, Iran Egypt all previuosly had a thriving middle class with strong infrastructures. Not all of these people escaped to the West I believe there are still may of them left to start rebuilding! Then last we must remove the most vile of them all and thats the Saudis! They smile in our face, send their kids to our universiies,invest in our stock market then export their hate in the form of religious fanatics that slit the throats of defenseless airline stewardesses and fly our airplanes into our buildings slaughtering 3,000 of our people!
And yes the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA will probably fund most of this redevelopment! And yes it may be a PAIN IN THE ASS Dave and IT WILL COST MONEY but it will be well worth it! Our gift to the middle east indeed the world will be to rid this planet of the meglamaniac Arab dictators that hate us and wish to kill us. There isn't any in to doing whats right. My fathers generation knew that...when they bombed Germany into submission and when we nuked Japan!

[totenhosen]

Busti you are right about Saudi Arabia. They smile in our face and spit on us behind our backs. Problem is we need them as much as they need us. In order for the Royal Family to stay in power they need our money for oil. At the same time to appease their population they have to support groups that want our destruction. If they don't let their population hate us and their givernment shows unbridled support for the U.S. the population may turn against them and try to oust them.
That is why plain and simple each goverment looks out for its own interest even if it is to the determent of others. Let's face the U.S. is in a the top position in the world. We are always the bad guy even when we help rebuild other countries (like Germany, Japan etc.) Other countries would jsut laugh at thelosers of war and jsut let them rot. That is why our country is the best of the worst because there is nothing better out there and no government is perfect.
Doesn't mean that we can't question our governments actions to see if something else could be done.

[OC-PARTYCAT]

will I get free gas?? :D :D

[sandblasted]

I checked in to see if any of you guys had solved the mid east crisis yet? but you didn't..Damn, I'm dissapointed. I really don't want to pay $3 a gallon for gas this summer..somebody think of a solution, quick! :D :D