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View Full Version : What are the grocery store workers striking for?



totenhosen
10-14-2003, 08:06 AM
As topic states. Do you listen to both sides and than decide whether you will cross picket lines?Do you cross picket lines?

MagicMtnDan
10-14-2003, 08:17 AM
I went to the grocery store Sunday night and was met by a group of picketers at the driveway into the parking lot and then more near the entrances to the store. In my opinion, workers on strike should not be allowed to be at the front door.
I was met by one of the picketers who asked me if I was going to honor their picket line. I told him yes, just as soon as he comes to my office next time I have an issue with my company. Then I went into the store and made my purchase.
I am sympathetic to the plight of these people - I hope they make a fair wage and enjoy nice benefits. But ultimately they will be paid what the market will bear which is what they are worth. If they don't like it they can do what everyone (non-union employees) do, look for another job.
I do not want to be hassled going into a store, company or place of business. The picketers should be out at the curb and not at the front door. People should be aware of the strike but not be thrust into the middle of it. And I resent the unions for taking this tact. As a result, I have zero sympathy for these unions and I hope they "go away."
[ October 14, 2003, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: MagicMtnDan ]

Rivertoys
10-14-2003, 08:27 AM
They make more than a fair wage. My best friend in High School and College worked at Ralphs stacking fruit for $16/hour. Full benefits.
As far as I know they are on strike because the company isn't going to pay as much of their benefit cost as they had been. SO benefits will cost them more (or cost them something) now.
Same thing is happening at my place of employment and many others I know. That's just how companies are dealing with the high cost of benefits, by passing it along to the ones that are benefitting from them. I don't have a problem with it. Maybe they just shouldn't offer benefits to their employees and have them pay the full price of health care insurance on thier own!!! That would be some humble pie for the strikers. wink
RTJas :D <- Not a union fan.

hot_diggity_dog
10-14-2003, 08:46 AM
UNION STRIKERS SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT wink
After the strike is over, are you expecting to have all of the previous customers return, to shop at that store???????????? :confused:
If your answer is YES :rolleyes:
:rolleyes: Then why would you harass them for shopping today when you expect them to return after you give them shit!!!!!!!
You have the right to join the union and to strike when ever you want.
But you don't have the right to give me or my family shit for shopping at a store your are picketing :mad:
Keep this shit up and you will lose many customer's in the future. wink
Hot (You have to do what you have to do!) Diggity Dog :cool:

Havasu_Dreamin
10-14-2003, 08:50 AM
My health benefits are going up and while the company is absorbing most of the increase they can't be expected to absorb all of it. This is just another example of the entitlement mindset in this country!
RTJas, I'm with you, I'm not a fan of unions either.

572Daytona
10-14-2003, 08:59 AM
I can't believe that CA even has a union for such a thing. I prefer to bag my own groceries and have been doing it for years. Nothing else to do while you wait for the clerk to ring things up. Do the 7-11 slurpee machine operators have a union too? Talk about unskilled non-essential labor. :rolleyes:

superdave013
10-14-2003, 09:02 AM
I hear they are payin 15 bucks an hour for part time help right now.
[ October 14, 2003, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: superdave013 ]

eliminatedsprinter
10-14-2003, 09:05 AM
We are going to be involved in it. The cost of this strike will most likely be passed on to us in the form of price increases.
[ October 14, 2003, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: eliminatedsprinter ]

MagicMtnDan
10-14-2003, 09:16 AM
superdave013:
I heard they are payin 15 bucks an hour for part time help right now. I saw a sign at Von's - $17.90/hour for some of the workers they need.

jbtrailerjim
10-14-2003, 09:18 AM
I agree with MMD that they should not be allowed to stand in front of the door and bother you. I'm not a fan of unions at all. If your not happy with the changes your company you work for are making; then go look for another job.

MagicMtnDan
10-14-2003, 09:20 AM
eliminatedsprinter:
We are going to be involved in it. The cost of this strike will most likely be passed on to us in the form of price increases. That's true everywhere. Every company that has their costs raised has to try and get that money back somewhere. Sure some of it can be eaten which eats away at the profits but if a company wants to survive it will reduce costs and try to hold on to (and maximize) profits.
That's what the grocery chains are trying to do. They're faced with significant competition from the "big box" stores like Costco and Sam's Club. They're doing what many companies are doing, not paying for the ever-increasing employee benefits. And who can blame them considering the HUGE workers comp costs (and others) that are plaguing this state (how'd Gray Davis get into this thread)!
[ October 14, 2003, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: MagicMtnDan ]

rvrtoy
10-14-2003, 09:20 AM
At this point I do not care why they are stricking. The picketers at a local Albertons were rude and obnoxious to my wife yesterday. All because she had to run into the store to get some medication for my sick 3 year old son. burningm Because of this I and my family will never shop at Ralphs, Vons or, Albertsons. I will pay more and shop at Food 4 Less or Henry's or any other non-union market.
yuk
Just my .02
[ October 14, 2003, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: rvrtoy ]

fourspeednup
10-14-2003, 09:34 AM
Let's look on the bright side! My buddy just bought 4 30 packs of coors light from albertsons in ventura for $11 each. I say, keep picketing and come over here to AZ!

gmocnik
10-14-2003, 09:34 AM
don't get me started on this one.....
as an owner of a start-up development company the health care cost issue is an issue every year..the facts of life are that health care insurance is expensive and employees just have to participate in the expense associated with coverage. we offer choices to our employeees...if they want ppo, no copayment, low deductables then they share in the expense...if they opt for hmo or moderate copay and moderate deductable then they pay less...why do these people (cashiers who are easily replaced) feel entitled to free health care???
these a-holes that stand at the entrance and verbally abuse you as you try to enter the store really piss me off...my solution was to print out a picture of the self serve checkout center at home depot and as the $17 an hour checker/striker approaches, just hand them the picture of their replacement....
we can only hope that their union suffers the same fate as the air traffic controllers when reagan said f you....

totenhosen
10-14-2003, 09:58 AM
SO that's what they are striking for? Hell most part-time employees get zero benefits. My healthcare costs/co-payment goes up every year because it does for the company as well. I can't expect them to completely absorb the cost and to stay in business. Time for them to realize what is being asked of them is the norm.
[ October 14, 2003, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: totenhosen ]

flat broke
10-14-2003, 10:00 AM
Dave,
We saw 19.90 this weekend in the LBC. I think you'll see a lot more people start shopping at Trader Joes and the like during the strike, and some people just might like the smaller stores and remain permanent customers.
Chris

Lookin for Liquid
10-14-2003, 10:26 AM
My opinion is that if you don't like your job because the conditions of you to work that particular type of employment are not good enough for your needs......Go find something else!
They don't want scabs to work there job, but how many of them are doing part time work in someone else's profession to make ends meet.

Lookin for Liquid
10-14-2003, 10:26 AM
Double post.....sorry.
[ October 14, 2003, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: Lookin for Liquid ]

Seadog
10-14-2003, 10:38 AM
While you want to feel sorry for some of these people, they can be their own worse enemies. We had a Humpty's a couple of decades ago that was union. They offered nothing special and was talking about going out of business. They interviewed one of the checkout gals for the paper. I was symphathetic up to the point that I found out that she was making 50% more checking groceries than I was at a skilled position. To my knowledge, none of the groceries here are union since then.

Dave C
10-14-2003, 10:57 AM
Unions, some of them are corrupt. I know this because I work for them.
Plus they work in opposition to what's in my best interest.
However, I support the rights of those to organize and join unions, just as long as they don't infringe upon my rights.
[ October 14, 2003, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: Dave C ]

Ziggy
10-14-2003, 11:00 AM
My feelings are right on line with the rest here, especially HDD...after being harrassed trying to enter a store why would you the consumer return to a place where the employees crapped on you. Luckily we shop at Boney's(aka henreys) or Stater Bros. only entering the others for convenience or the immediate need.

CA Stu
10-14-2003, 11:00 AM
gmocnik:
we can only hope that their union suffers the same fate as the air traffic controllers when reagan said f you.... And the people said "AMEN!!!!"
CA Stu <-- F Unions

ROZ
10-14-2003, 11:58 AM
gmocnik:
my solution was to print out a picture of the self serve checkout center at home depot and as the $17 an hour checker/striker approaches, just hand them the picture of their replacement....ROTFLMAO!!!!I told my wife the same thing Sunday!!!!
Actually, some of the Ralph's down here have a few self checkout lines.

68campbell
10-14-2003, 12:03 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by gmocnik:
my solution was to print out a picture of the self serve checkout center at home depot and as the $17 an hour checker/striker approaches, just hand them the picture of their replacement....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is the funniest thing I have ever heard.

little rowe boat
10-14-2003, 12:12 PM
They are striking because they are having Health and medical benefits taken away.They are not asking for raises or increases in their benefits.They are striking to keep their families medically insured. I belong to a union and will not cross their picket line.They have a right to picket and inform people not to harrass but inform.

Irishluck
10-14-2003, 12:15 PM
The cost of doing business in California has affected every type of business. The real problem isn't being addressed here, they just want to complain about having to pay a little extra a month for health care. I am not a big fan of unions and they always seem to support democrats, which if they had any sense would understand why the hell there employers are in this mess to begin with.

BUSTI
10-14-2003, 12:20 PM
In this day and age if you need to resort to walking in the street, carrying signs, chanting slogans like brain washed goons, and harrassing the very customers that pay your wages in order to get a better job....move to an other country like Cuba! Were you belong...what a bunch of losers those pathetic fu#&s are. burningm

BiggusJimbus
10-14-2003, 12:23 PM
little rowe boat:
They are striking because they are having Health and medical benefits taken away.They are not asking for raises or increases in their benefits.They are striking to keep their families medically insured. I belong to a union and will not cross their picket line.They have a right to picket and inform people not to harrass but inform. So, explain to me how driving their customers to non-union outlets for their groceries is going to aid in their struggle to not have to contribut 15 dollars a week more toward their own health care?
And, from what I have seen, they are asking for pay raises. One each for the next three years. Not big ones, but your statement is not valid. I haven't seen any specifics concerning retirement benefits, only the general statements spun out by union leadership.
That's one hour a week to pay part of the health care for your family.
While both sides are ready to throw away millions daily to fight tooth and nail over this gets down to egos.
[ October 14, 2003, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: BiggusJimbus ]

C-2
10-14-2003, 01:20 PM
My wife is caught up in this whole mess and I think it’s f*^#^!n joke. The problem with union’s today is they fail to take into account the changing marketplace. This is a free market economy, not the days of prohibition and where monopolies and organized crime control a lot of businesses (although writing that line I guess a union might fall into that whole organized crime definition…lol).
They seem to think that what has worked for the past 50 years will continue to work…and without any change. This is where I think they are wrong. I also think they are dead wrong for misleading their members.
There are numerous analysts outside the industry that say for the chains to compete in the future with other full-service markets (the big threat here is Wal Mart), they need to cut their health insurance costs and adjust the wage of new hires to be more in line with what competitors are paying. Either they do it now, or face the risks of going out of business 5 years down the road.
So they have a choice…either union members make some concessions now….or look at not having a job, period, in a few years. Is the union telling them their members this? NOPE. They continue to wanna play Billy bad-ass, at the expense of their own members.
What makes this strike a little different than other grocery strikes in the past is the unity of all three major chains, not just one. Word in the industry is that the chains are in it for the long haul, hoping to “bust” the union by draining their strike fund. Now I would think the union must have some type of insurance policy in place to prevent that from happening, but maybe they don’t and it’s a very real possibility.
As with most strikes when they first happen, it’s almost a party like atmosphere on the picket line. Lots of energy and the usual banter...the big bad company is picking on us...boo hoo hoo cry cry cry But in a few weeks, when everybody starts missing their full paychecks and people began losing their benefits, I think opinions will start changing and members are gonna start making some concessions.
Two things crack me up about this strike; one, is that everybody thinks Stater Bros are the good guys in this mess – in reality they are pussies that have already bowed down to the union without a fight. I’ll support a non-union Mexican market before patronizing those fockers; and two – if you don’t think teamsters are corrupt, then ask yourself this – WHY IN THE F$@#@$CK ARE THEY STILL LOADING GROCERIES AT THE WAREHOUSES? Sure, they won’t drive them over the *picket line*, but if they were gonna help their union brothers and support the strike…don’t you think the strike would be a lot more effective IF YOU CUT OFF THE SUPPLIES!!!
Duh, the union folks sure don’t wanna talk about that :rolleyes:

MagicMtnDan
10-14-2003, 01:31 PM
little rowe boat:
They are striking because they are having Health and medical benefits taken away.They are not asking for raises or increases in their benefits.They are striking to keep their families medically insured. I belong to a union and will not cross their picket line.They have a right to picket and inform people not to harrass but inform. What about everybody else who is having their health and medical benefits reduced? Should we all go out on strike? The day I go out on strike is the day my company goes onto Monster.com to find my replacement.
Here's the deal with this strike & the unions:
* If the unions care so much let them give their dues back to the workers to help pay for the increased medical/health care costs!
* Lost wages from the strike often exceed any gains made by the strike. Hello? Is anyone effen home?
* Employees striking in front of the very stores they work at only makes the customers more pissed off.
* People have to eat - they won't/can't stay away from the stores for long and the convenience of going to the local store will win out in a few more days.
* When people in the stores see the help wanted signs and hourly wages of up to $20/hour hardly anyone will feel sympathetic to the unions.
* When workers go on strike the workers and the businesses suffer. What about the unions? Do they take it in the shorts too?
* What if it was YOUR STORE they were picketing in front of? How would you feel about the damage they were doing to your business, your income and your family's future?
Run don't walk down to your local grocery store and buy your stuff there.

Ivan Dan
10-14-2003, 01:33 PM
My dad works at the Albertsons distribution center in Brea. There are several reasons they are striking. They negotiate their contract every 4 years. That means they get absolutely NO raises durring that 4 year period. Wouldn't you be asking for a raise after 4 years without one? I sure would be.
The companies are trying to take away part of their benefits as well as their pensions. How would YOU feel if your company came to you and said ok well...we've decided that we are cutting your benefits program down and also your pension plans. YOU would be pissed just like these people are and YOU would be striking/picketing right next to them. If you worked at your company for 27 years and all of sudden they want to take away your pension and part of your benefits you are telling me that you would just sit there and let them do it? I call BS on that one.
I 110% agree with you however that harrasing people is not the answer to this problem. Asking people not to shop at those stores is a better tactic in my opinion. If people do not shop at these stores the lost sales will force the company to negotiate with them in good faith. In theory this is a great idea. But my first thought was the same as some of yours....what if the people really like these smaller non-union stores? Then that plan backfires in everyones faces.
This is obviously just my opinion on the strike issue and you are entitled to your opinion as well.
DAN
www.DanKaatz.com (http://www.DanKaatz.com)

mickeyfinn
10-14-2003, 01:34 PM
little rowe boat:
They are striking because they are having Health and medical benefits taken away.They are not asking for raises or increases in their benefits.They are striking to keep their families medically insured. I belong to a union and will not cross their picket line.They have a right to picket and inform people not to harrass but inform. I agree that people have the right to join a union. I believe that if a union wants to place a representative at the store to hand people information if it is requested. I object to any union member who walks up to me and suggests that I need to support their cause for any reason. If I give a Sh*t about their cause I will ask for information. At the risk of starting crap with the union members that might be in this forum I believe that unions once had a time and a place but that place no longer exists. It is nothing but a mechanism for legally exhort money from business. This is a free market economy and the unions do nothing but place an unnecessary burden on business and the costs of goods and services. I am not aware of grocery workers in this area having a union and don't know if there are any grocery stores in Cal. that do not employ union workers but if they do I would urge everyone to take your business there and leave it there. The only people who need unions today are people who either believe themselves to be worth more than the economy says they are or those who are so weak that they can't speak for themselves and are willing to pay someone else to do it for them.

Ivan Dan
10-14-2003, 01:47 PM
I think people talk a lot of shit until you are sitting in this position. When was the last time you had re-negotiate your salary,penison and benefits program? Most people negotiate to get their benefits, pensions or salaries increased NOT to keep them from being decreased. Put yourself in these workers shoes...do you think they like striking? UHHH NOOOO they sure don't.
I'm not defending the unions in anyway here. I'm just saying you have to look at the WHOLE picture before you start bashing people.
My dad has 3 years left until he can retire. He just wants to finish out his 3 years and move on with his life. At this point he just wants this whole strike BS to be done and I'm sure all of the other workers on strike are thinking the same thing.

Havasu_Dreamin
10-14-2003, 01:48 PM
From the New Democrat, errrr, the LeftA Times:
Workers pay no premium for full family health insurance — a perk enjoyed by workers at only 4% of large employers nationwide, according to a survey by the Kaiser Family Foundation, an independent research group not affiliated with managed-care provider Kaiser Permanente.
So, they pay no healtj premieums and I ahve seen mine go up every year for the last few years and I am supposed to empathize, WRONG! Try again.
Union members also would have to contribute to premiums for the first time, at least $780 a year for family coverage.
I pay almost that and that's just for me. Real good arguements these people are making.
As far as not getting a raise in 4 years, well, that's their GD fault for negotiating a contract with no raises. And also, you don't like what you are getting paid, go get another job!

MagicMtnDan
10-14-2003, 01:57 PM
Ivan Dan:
I think people talk a lot of shit until you are sitting in this position. When was the last time you had re-negotiate your salary,penison and benefits program? Most people negotiate to get their benefits, pensions or salaries increased NOT to keep them from being decreased. Put yourself in these workers shoes...do you think they like striking? UHHH NOOOO they sure don't.
I'm not defending the unions in anyway here. I'm just saying you have to look at the WHOLE picture before you start bashing people.
My dad has 3 years left until he can retire. He just wants to finish out his 3 years and move on with his life. At this point he just wants this whole strike BS to be done and I'm sure all of the other workers on strike are thinking the same thing. I "negotiate" my job benefits every damn day. By that I mean that I am an "at will" employee - I can be fired at any time by my employer. So I gotta do the job everyDAY or I can lose my job anyDAY.
I don't have a pension! Can I go on strike now? Will those union workers not cross MY picket line?
I'm already paying a portion of my medical plan costs. If my company tells the employees that we have to pay more/all of it guess what?! I'm paying more/all of it!
Why don't the unions start their own damn grocery store chain. They'll last about 6 months before they're on strike at their own store or because THEIR PRICES ARE TOO HIGH & THEY CAN'T COMPETE!
I'm going to Costco - they're going to eat these grocery stores lunch and that will be the end of them. Besides, how many of these "loyal" union workers shop at Costco or Sam's Club anyway? Think they only shop at the chain they work at? HA! Guess again! They go where the prices are lower just like everyone else.

ralph
10-14-2003, 01:57 PM
picket lines are for the purpose of stoping or restricting (scab) workers from doing the union members work. Not to stop the entrance by customers, they are only to be told the why and fact there is a strike, how ever the clueless dolts that usually wind up on a picket line has been there long enough to start getting angry, and even they do not know who they are angry towards , they are just mad.
Now you see why the illegal immigatin loby wants them to be legalized to get rid of the over paid union workers,Of course the only one thinks they are over paid are the ones not doing the work. If I was doing the work i would think It was underpaid.

Havasu_Dreamin
10-14-2003, 02:00 PM
Ivan Dan:
Most people negotiate to get their benefits, pensions or salaries increased NOT to keep them from being decreased. Having to start paying premiums is not a decrease in their benefits. They are finally having to sack-up and pay for a portion of their benefits as 96% of all covered employees do.
Ivan Dan:
My dad has 3 years left until he can retire. He just wants to finish out his 3 years and move on with his life. At this point he just wants this whole strike BS to be done and I'm sure all of the other workers on strike are thinking the same thing. And I don't blame your father for feeling that way at all. He is towards the end of his working carer and as such is more concerned with getting to enjoy the fruits of his labor and this is just something that ultimately will hurt him, and the other striking workers, more than it will help them.

CA Stu
10-14-2003, 02:03 PM
Havasu_Dreamin:
Union members also would have to contribute to premiums for the first time, at least $780 a year for family coverage.
I'm self employed, and I pay damn near that much per month for myself and my family. Then I have to kick in the deductibles, too. I just got done spending an extra $1200 on top of the $6k plus in annual premiums for a brace and leg surgery from a broken leg!
Unions are an idea whose time has come and gone. They are a parasitic perversion of the founders' ideals, unions now exist mainly to enrichen the union reps through bleeding their members.
There are no more 80 hour work weeks, company stores, company scrip, etc.. It's a free market economy.
These companies will go the way of Gemco before they stay in business to lose money. Does anyone remember Gemco? Forced out of business by the unions? Forced to pay $15 an hour for what was then a $6/hr job? They said "F everybody then" and folded.
Where did that leave the workers? Unemployed, that's where...
CA Stu <- if we do not learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it
[ October 14, 2003, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: CA Stu ]

hot_diggity_dog
10-14-2003, 02:08 PM
I think people talk a lot of shit until you are sitting in this position. When was the last time you had re-negotiate your salary,penison and benefits program? Most people negotiate to get their benefits, pensions or salaries increased NOT to keep them from being decreased. Put yourself in these workers shoes...do you think they like striking? UHHH NOOOO they sure don't.
When I was in this situation, I did not strike after ten years, I walked and found a better job. :rolleyes: This isn't freaking Iraq!!! :rolleyes:
We have Union reps at our Jobsites everyday, yes everyday trying to get the entire construction community in SD to go union. They harrass our clients and subcontractors. Companies are folding left and right. :mad:
Workers Comp has gone up from 150% to over 300%, that right there has shut the doors on enough companies.
If not patronizing the stores would solve the problem, then we wouldn't be held by the balls by the oil companies to. Not going to buy gas from certain gas stations didn't lower prices!!!!!! :rolleyes:
When it's all done and said it effects the consumer, just like the pro athletes have done to sports.
These are the same Fockers who complain about the $7.00 beer and $5.00 hot dog's. Go ahead and strike It's a lose -lose situation.
FYI wink I have friends who work at the Brea Distribution center too. :rolleyes:
HDD :cool:

DickDanger
10-14-2003, 02:10 PM
Yeah, cos I am sure that all of the anti-union people on here know that their managers put the interest of the employee above all else, including net profit.
First of all, a lot of people on here are talking out of their ass. Go get a bit more information, and then come state your opinion. -DD Out

MagicMtnDan
10-14-2003, 02:17 PM
DickDanger:
Yeah, cos I am sure that all of the anti-union people on here know that their managers put the interest of the employee above all else, including net profit.Huh? :confused: :confused: :confused:
If I understand the point you were trying to make then my response is this... Business is business. It's all about making a profit at every company. If it's not then it's all about going out of business. It's time the union workers are in the same game that the rest of the world's non-union workers are in.
Compete or perish.
To paraphrase a terrific IBM TV commercial...
Can you say Unionus Obsoleteus?

CA Stu
10-14-2003, 02:27 PM
DickDanger:
Yeah, cos I am sure that all of the anti-union people on here know that their managers put the interest of the employee above all else, including net profit.
First of all, a lot of people on here are talking out of their ass. Go get a bit more information, and then come state your opinion. -DD Out Dude! You're a government employee! And a union member!
To you , no wonder it seems OK.
For the rest of us that aren't fortunate to have your career, unions can lick balls!
I must admit, I have a personal bias against unions, though. Some punk ass bitch pussy Teamster threw a brick at my father in law over union shit like this... Not gonna get into sepcifics.
We live in a 21st century free market capitalist economy. LABOR Unions need to go the way of the dinosaur and quit sucking the life out of their members, and the economy in general.
Thanks
CA Stu

CA Stu
10-14-2003, 02:28 PM
CA Stu:
DickDanger:
Yeah, cos I am sure that all of the anti-union people on here know that their managers put the interest of the employee above all else, including net profit.
First of all, a lot of people on here are talking out of their ass. Go get a bit more information, and then come state your opinion. -DD Out Dude! You're a government employee! And a union member!
To you , no wonder it seems OK.
For the rest of us that aren't fortunate enough to have your career, unions can lick balls!
I must admit, I have a personal bias against unions, though. Some punk ass bitch pussy Teamster threw a brick at my father in law over union shit like this... Not gonna get into sepcifics.
We live in a 21st century free market capitalist economy. LABOR Unions need to go the way of the dinosaur and quit sucking the life out of their members, and the economy in general.
Thanks
CA Stu

HM
10-14-2003, 02:31 PM
They had planned to only Strike at Vons, so that people could shop at the other stores without hassles.
But, Albertsons and Ralphs locked out the employees as a reaction to the planned strike at Vons - sort of throwing the we are all in it together back in the union's faces.
I was a bit sympathetic as they are facing major cuts accross the board....was is the key word...until I drove through an Albertons parking lot to get to a gas station, and the strikers were yelling at me and actually blocked my car.
Looks like Stater Bros will be getting our business.
I agree with who ever said they are their own worst enemy.

CA Stu
10-14-2003, 02:34 PM
F*ckin double double post! GD Gray Davis!
CA Stu

hot_diggity_dog
10-14-2003, 02:36 PM
First of all, a lot of people on here are talking out of their ass. Go get a bit more information, and then come state your opinion.
DD I pulled my head out of my ass before I responded to you. Now my response should be good enough for you!
Yeah, cos I am sure that all of the anti-union people on here know that their managers put the interest of the employee above all else, including net profit.
Maybe I am one of the luckier people, our company is run entirely on profit sharing, we reuse file folders and do not use many post notes etc., instead we fold the paper over and write most of our notes that way. Every employee is looking out for our (the companies interest) and saving money that goes back into our pocket. This is just one example of how we are more profitable for the employees.
Our philosophy is to pay lower salaries and to have minimum benefits, to get higher quarterly bonuses that we can use to purchase more insurance, dental, Optical insurance etc. or anything you want to spend your money on. They prefer to let you decide on how your paycheck is spent.
Just my $4.50 cents worth. :rolleyes:
Hot (No need to start any shit with me wink ) Diggity Dog :cool:

bigq
10-14-2003, 02:50 PM
Ivan Dan:
My dad works at the Albertsons distribution center in Brea. There are several reasons they are striking. They negotiate their contract every 4 years. That means they get absolutely NO raises durring that 4 year period. Wouldn't you be asking for a raise after 4 years without one? I sure would be. What the hell does this mean.they negotiate every four years and get a raise, then need to renegotiate in four years. If they get a raise how can you say they get "NO" raise in a four year period when they do?
Ivan Dan:
The companies are trying to take away part of their benefits as well as their pensions. How would YOU feel if your company came to you and said ok well...we've decided that we are cutting your benefits program down and also your pension plans. YOU would be pissed just like these people are and YOU would be striking/picketing right next to them. If you worked at your company for 27 years and all of sudden they want to take away your pension and part of your benefits you are telling me that you would just sit there and let them do it? I call BS on that one.It's my understanding they are asking them to pay for part of the benefits, how is this cutting them?
Ivan Dan:
I 110% agree with you however that harrasing people is not the answer to this problem. Asking people not to shop at those stores is a better tactic in my opinion. If people do not shop at these stores the lost sales will force the company to negotiate with them in good faith. In theory this is a great idea. But my first thought was the same as some of yours....what if the people really like these smaller non-union stores? Then that plan backfires in everyones faces.
This is obviously just my opinion on the strike issue and you are entitled to your opinion as well.
DAN
www.DanKaatz.com (http://www.DanKaatz.com) I doubt this will happen. people are creatures of habit and will go back to the stores when it is over. However if the stores can't make money because of the highr cost of employees they won't be around very long, Walmart will, Target will, Costco will, but the big grocery chains won't be.

bigq
10-14-2003, 02:51 PM
CA Stu:
F*ckin double double post! GD Gray Davis!
CA Stu lol :D

mickeyfinn
10-14-2003, 02:59 PM
I fail to understand how anyone could possibly think unions are good for the country. The only people a union could possibly benefit is the select few who happen to be members. The rest of society is then forced to pay for the inflated benefits, wages and other perks that the union workers recieve. This is supposed to be a free market economy and any businessman that tells you the bottom line of his business is either lying or laundering money for something illegal. Anytime you force an employer to pay someone higher wages or give more benefits then you are forcing every consumer to pay more for the goods or services that company produces. This in turn makes room for other competition to enter the market place and be more competitive and drive the union companies out of business. Just look at the airline industry. The large union burdened airlines are on the government welfare program and still losing money, while the non-union upstart companies are watching the money, paying the employees a salary that they can actually afford(imagine that strange business practice) and making money when everyone else is projecting near record losses.
So maybe what the union workers are not being told is that they are striking because the cost benefits is going up and if they insist on the company continuing to provide coverages at current level then they will have to increase prices to pay for it and then when all of the coustomers have left to shop in the more competitive stores you will be totally without coverage.

NorCal Gameshow
10-14-2003, 03:01 PM
my wife hid my soap box, so i can't reply to this one frown

miller19j
10-14-2003, 03:03 PM
NorCal Gameshow:
my wife hid my soap box, so i can't reply to this one :( LMAO……. Now that is funny! :)

68campbell
10-14-2003, 03:07 PM
MickeyFinn.....Ditto
The only 2 things that unions do today is protect the lazy workers and extort money from the business owners.
I was one step away from throwing blows with a picketer at Albertsons today so my opinion may be a little skewed.

BUSTI
10-14-2003, 03:18 PM
Do you know what the margin of profit is on groceriers sold at these supermarkets? Do you know the average rate of return on every dollar invested by the stock holders that own these companies? Do you think the employees care about these numbers?
We have had these discussions before! The manangers of these huge companies have no moral or business obligation to keep employees with paychecks! When will the leftists of this world get it? The only obligation the managers of these companies have is to their customers who pay the bills and expect fair value for their money and to the stock holders to make them a PROFIT!!!!!!!!!!!!
That means that the managers job is to get their employees to do as much work for as little money out of the companies pocket as possible! Good companies that want to compete with their competitors for people/employees they will pay higher than normal wages and benifits as they can afford it. If they don't their emplotees will go work for thiose that do. Leftists just don't get it! The need for unions has long since come and gone. Relate this to my post early on "Colunbus Day" and how this easy to learn concept of free trade should be taught in the class room. But then again then we would need the biggest and most powerful union in the world (National Education Association) to start teaching capitalism amd not socialism!

BiggusJimbus
10-14-2003, 03:20 PM
One other thing that I notice with presentation of FACTS in regards to pay raises...
This is from my experience hearing my wife talk about their teaching contracts and omitting this detail.
When unions talk about raises, they are talking about changing the PAY SCALE. They continue (in her case) to get bigger checks due to things like length of tenure, additional training and additional programs (teacher mentoring, team leading, special programs) that also increast their income. So, even when there is no raise in the contract, she continues to get a bigger paycheck every year. They also tend to have Cost of Living clauses.
That's not to say that the unions in dispute have those provisions, but I really doubt that there is no payscale change based on years of experience.
From the looks of the activity on the supermarket stocks, the financial markets are backing the store management. That says a lot about how this strike will end up. Although those are about the most fickle indicators possible.
This is considered to be a test market for similar actions across the nation. So, if the union wins here, look out rest of America, it'll be coming to you next.

1stepcloser
10-14-2003, 03:24 PM
My opinion is pretty much the same as most here, I find it difficult to feel any type of sympathy for the union members.
I have been with my company for fifteen years, and I have no job "security" to speak of. If I take advantage of and f**k off, I get fired. That simple.
I get no gauranteed raise's. I have earned all of the compensation I have gotten.
See, I get paid for what I am worth, based on what the market will bear.
Health benefits? Sure. I have a pretty nice benefits package. Medical, dental, vision. I also pay for these benefits.
I have a pretty generous retirement program as well. I have to pay for this as well.
I pay into the plan, and the company is kind enough to add some of their profits to my portfolio annually.
I have never "negotiated" a "pay package".
I get an annual performance review which, as the name implies, is an assessment of my performance of the previous year. That review is followed by a "pay plan".
The choice here is really very simple; accept the plan or dont.
Let me explain this..."Accept the plan" means just that, I accept and continue working here.
"Dont" also means just that, I "dont" accept the plan, and will no longer work here.
Get it?
While I do not own the company, I absolutely believe that the person that does own the company has every right to make a profit from that company, to be able to hire who he chooses, fire who he chooses, and to not be held hostage by his "employees".
I would suggest that you put yourself in the shoes of the business owner.
Ask yourself how would you feel if your employees were doing this to you.
And, finally, you do have a choice here, you dont have to work under those lousy conditions....Quit. Take some responsibility for your own life.
Go and find a job that recognizes your talents, and is willing to pay you what you feel you are worth.

DickDanger
10-14-2003, 03:24 PM
Actually, I am NOT a union member. Our union sucks balls, and I am fortunate enough that the current management here at work have been good friends of mine for years, and I have known them for years. The FD does not generate a profit as such, although we do provide a service.
However, unions are a vital part of the workforce. Name almost anything in this world, and I can tell you in one way or another how it revolves around profit margins, cost cutting, etc.
The bottom line is that managers have to answer to the CEO's, CFO's, President, etc about their generation of revenue. If screwing some employees helps their bottom line, "so be it" is the attitude.
For those the were in the military, here is a case in point that may surprise you (yes, I am a vet). Retirees no longer are entitled to free health care for the rest of their lives. Why? Since people live longer now, the government would rather not do this anymore.
I find it hard to believe that ANYONE on here would begrudge the supermarket people for fighting. What would YOU do? Lay down, and say "Yes, please, I do want to pay more premiums for health care. And I do want to only get a dollar an hour more for working holidays, rather than the time and a half that my budget is based on, and yes, while your at it, lets lower the hourly wage for new employees."
Anyone that is agrees with that, you must either be an idiot, or independantly wealthy.
Just my .02. -DD Out
[ October 14, 2003, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: DickDanger ]

Dave C
10-14-2003, 03:28 PM
Did anyone see the article in the WSJ last week about how Wal-mart is lowering their health insurance premiums? They have increased deductibles and required a waiting period for coverage. Their philosophy is to cover all major medical expenses but not worry about the small stuff.
Therefore, Wal-mart’s cost for health insurance per employee is considerably less than their competition.
Let’s look at the marketplace because I think the union members are getting a bit greedy here. They want full benefit and medical coverage, no deductibles, etc. etc.
I have seen the health insurance premiums double over the last couple of years. So if they were acting in good faith much of this should not be about union vs. the employer, rather why the insurance premiums are out of control. (thank the trial lawyers for that one.)
I don’t know about you but most people I have talked to have said that some of the cost for health insurance in the form of increased deductibles and limits on coverage have been passed along to the employees.
[ October 14, 2003, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: Dave C ]

BUSTI
10-14-2003, 03:32 PM
"lets lower the hourly wage for new employees"....ok sounds good to me!!!!!

CA Stu
10-14-2003, 04:02 PM
You can't get blood from a turnip.
CA Stu

MagicMtnDan
10-14-2003, 04:11 PM
DickDanger:
However, unions are a vital part of the workforce. Name almost anything in this world, and I can tell you in one way or another how it revolves around profit margins, cost cutting, etc.
The bottom line is that managers have to answer to the CEO's, CFO's, President, etc about their generation of revenue. If screwing some employees helps their bottom line, "so be it" is the attitude.
For those the were in the military, here is a case in point that may surprise you (yes, I am a vet). Retirees no longer are entitled to free health care for the rest of their lives. Why? Since people live longer now, the government would rather not do this anymore. DD, you appear to be very confused.
Originally posted by DickDanger:
However, unions are a vital part of the workforce. Guess this depends on your definition of the word "vital." In this context, I see the word "vital" as meaning "bloodsucking leeches who don't understand business and capitalism."
DickDanger:
Name almost anything in this world, and I can tell you in one way or another how it revolves around profit margins, cost cutting, etc. Well, you got this part right if you're talking about for-profit businesses!
DickDanger:
The bottom line is that managers have to answer to the CEO's, CFO's, President, etc about their generation of revenue. If screwing some employees helps their bottom line, "so be it" is the attitude. [/b] You're correct on the first sentence and incorrect on the second sentence. Sure some businesses "screw some employees" but for the most part the free market and employees' ability to walk out and get work elsewhere is a pretty strong influence on how companies treat their employees. Unless of course you're a union sympathizer in which case "screwing some employees" is probably part of the daily beotch session around the time clock.
DickDanger:
For those the were in the military, here is a case in point that may surprise you (yes, I am a vet). Retirees no longer are entitled to free health care for the rest of their lives. Why? Since people live longer now, the government would rather not do this anymore. [/b] I guess I'm missing something here. As far as I can see it, the military has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. But you make a good point - even the government had to cut perks (benefits) since the costs were/are skyrocketing! It's not that the government "would rather not do this anymore," it's that the government can't afford it. Imagine what our taxes would be like if we did pay. I am very sympathetic to the military service people and I wish they all were paid more and many of their benefits are inadequate. But that's an issue for a different thread for sure as it has nothing to do with unions killing businesses and sucking the life out of industry sectors causing these jobs to go offshore.

chub
10-14-2003, 04:19 PM
40 Hour work week as apposed to 72 = Unions
Safety in the work place = Unions
Paid Sick leave = Unions
Paid vacations or in the construction industry a vacation check every six months = Unions
These are things all of you non union, hatin union folks on these boards take for GRANTED. If you think you got problems because unions make people to much money. Wait until you union bustin MF's get what your wishing for and China is the strongest nation in the world cause the "global economy" sends all their money to them. Think hard. PAYING AMERICANS A FAIR WAGE IS THE REASON OUR HOT BOAT INDUSTRY IS SO ADVANCED. Yes I'm union and damn proud of it. Still go to college to keep up with changing technology and keep all your f'n money where you want it. you like going to the ATM machine? Thank union labor! I'll stop here as I'm gettin more pissed. I don't think anyone should be hasseled at the market but THE COMPANIES LOCKED OUT THE EMPLOYEE'S!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: I don't hear no one pissed at the employers? :mad: :mad: :mad:

little rowe boat
10-14-2003, 04:22 PM
If it wasn't for the unions, the blood sucking business owners and corporate america would be running on slave labor and there would be no middle class just upper and lower class.Welcome to the the rebirth of the USSR.

chub
10-14-2003, 04:29 PM
LRB, You hit the nail on the head. That's the difference between us and a third world country.

CA Stu
10-14-2003, 04:37 PM
chub:
40 Hour work week as apposed to 72 = Unions
Safety in the work place = Unions
Paid Sick leave = Unions
These are all items that are great ideas, and we have unions to thank for them, agreed. However! All of these took effect many many moons ago. Today's unions and work conditions are nothing like they were 80 years ago.
If you don't like your job / pay, quit! Your employer doesn't owe you a damn thing other than whatever compensation you signed on for. The whole "loyalty" thing goes out the window when you try and extort extra money from an employer through strikes.
In today's business climate, I don't think unions are a necessity. They do seem to have their members pretty well brainwashed though, don't they.
I feel bad for the poor folks that need a check and are being manipulated by the unions. Seems to me that unions get a percentage of their constituents paychecks, so therefore , bigger checks = more union dues. If the employees kick in a bit towards their own health coverage, that means less net paycheck which means less union dues which means the union bosses have to make do with last year's limo and helicopter....
Of course, I'm no union member, so I may be completely wrong...
CA Stu

572Daytona
10-14-2003, 04:44 PM
I grew up in the south suburbs of Chicago and in my mind the unions were not a good influence on the area. They pretty much bankrupted all of the steel mills and manufacturing in the area and sent the business down south or over seas. Very few people in my High School even considered going to college since you could make a heck of a lot more by going to work in the mills. I had friends getting $12/hour or so working summer jobs in the mills in high school while I was making $2/hour as an apprentice pharmacist. Everything collapsed shortly after that and everybody was out of work. I had a computer job in downtown Chicago (since I was one of the few who got a college degree) but I remember very well coming home at 9 at night after working all day and my neighbor leaning over his fence drinking a beer in his t-shirt that he hadn't changed all day bitching and moaning about being laid off and how unfair life was :rolleyes: Whatever.

anxious
10-14-2003, 04:48 PM
the cost to cover employees for health benifits have increased drastically in two years. my best friend and i compared prices between our two companies from 2001-2003 and both of our costs have doubled and some. im just glad my employees understand that they have to give a little to recieve something better in the long run. screw the picket lines, the moment they went on strike i went to ralphs. i went in to buy $.99 gum just to piss them off. burningm

chub
10-14-2003, 04:52 PM
Ca Stu Pause for effect I simply don't agree! yuk

chub
10-14-2003, 04:59 PM
Why is everyone pissed at the union and not f'n yellin and screaming at their congressman/senator/ our great President about healthcare costs., I can't beleive you cant' figure out........ Heathcare cost are out of control..... it's not the unions, it's the healthcare industry.. WAKE UP!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

mickeyfinn
10-14-2003, 05:01 PM
Lets just save everyong some time, money and aggravation. Eliminate unions and allow people to walk into their place of employment and dictate to the business owners:
1. How much they will be paid
2. What they should recieve in benefits
3. How many days off with pay they get every year.
This will keep people from having to pay union dues, will keep the employers from losing money due to work stoppages, slowdowns, strikes etc.
Everyone will make a bundle of money and everyone is happy.....see isn't life simple..
GET REAL PEOPLE!!!!!
1. Businesses are for profit
2. Good business people recognize good employees
3. Greedy businesses get snuffed out by competition
4. If a company doesn't pay people enough the competition will if the employee is worth having.
UNIONS NO LONGER SERVE ANY USEFUL PURPOSE!!!

twistedpair
10-14-2003, 05:06 PM
Kinda seems like 'Ya reap what ya sow' to me. The Unions always back Democrats, and the Democrats are the ones screaming for 'Free health care for everyone', someone has got to pay for it.
p.s. I'm a Teamster, and our out of pocket expense has tripled in the last year.

bordsmnj
10-14-2003, 05:06 PM
i will honor union picket lines. i have worked in my trade both non-union and now union. it's easy to sit there and badmouth unions that y'all don't know shit about. you take shit from your company after making them a profit(=peon). remember united we bargain-devided we beg. today they take away your benifits one by one. then they take away your raises. then in the name of profit they give your job to some wet back as a thankyou for your years of service to that company. i've been there done that. i don't believe all the self centered bull shit i'm reading here. my union shop has done well for over 25 years. when you compare our work with the average non-union shop it's easy to see we'll be around for 25 more. these people picketing are there for more than just having their benifits snaked. oh, and i have a question: are any of the people responsible for profit margins and offering contracts to lower workers taking a pay cut? or giving up pensions? or paying more for medical? i don't see whats wrong with standing up to these ****s. thats my take if yuh don't like it. KIss my ass-SCAB!
excuse me while i calm down and take the ol'lady shopping. :D

CA Stu
10-14-2003, 05:11 PM
chub:
Why is everyone pissed at the union and not f'n yellin and screaming at their congressman/senator/ our great President about healthcare costs., I can't beleive you cant' figure out........ Heathcare cost are out of control..... it's not the unions, it's the healthcare industry.. WAKE UP!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: Why blame the unions? Because they're the ones going on strike!
The grocers have been taking healtchcare dick right up their ass while the unions sat by and watched, now they're asking their employees to help share the burden and the unions are saying "No!". Not only "no", but "no, f*ck you, we're going on strike."
If the unions had any balls, they'd go to bat for their members against the healthcare industry, rather than trying to screw over the markets that pay their members.
Uck funions.
Chubby, I don't care if you agree with me or not. Everyone's entitled to have their own opinion.
I stand by my opinion.
Cheers
CA Stu

chub
10-14-2003, 05:16 PM
bordsmnj, well thought, well said. I fully agree. Bring on the wrath! :mad:

mickeyfinn
10-14-2003, 05:17 PM
While I may not like or agree with unions there is one thing that bothers me more and that is the entitlement mentality which the younger generation seems to have. One of the reasons the health care costs for businesses have risen is because of the change in what insurance actually is.Insurance used to be something you bought to pay for a catastrophic illness not a maintenance plan. When times were good and medical facilities charged real dollars not the imaginary dollars measured in 100's of thousands or millions business found that a great benefit was to include as part of the coverage regular checkups. This helped keep employees alive and provided a great benefit to employees. Then the competition between companies started and the next thing you know dental, vision, medication and everything else is covered. Now in steps the lawyers. A lot of people who previously may have not sought medical treatment were seeking medical advice and occasionally that advice was faulty or someone made a mistake and the attorneys see a whole new market for wrongful damage claims. These claims cause healthcare costs to skyrocket and we are now where we are. I guess we should be pissed
#1 at the lawyers
#2 at ourselves for raising a whole generation who believe that health care is an entitlement
#3 the unions and the democrats for perpetuating that myth.
I personally would like to see legislation passed that would require employers who provide these benefits to their employees to allow the employee to recieve in lieu of coverage pay in the actual amount the business spends obtaining this coverage. Then as an employee I could make an educated decision whether to accept the lower wages and the maintenance plan or to fund my own medical plan for routine illness and take out a catastrophic plan to pay for extreme cases.
[ October 14, 2003, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: mickeyfinn ]

chub
10-14-2003, 05:21 PM
Ca Stu I respect your opinion and love the fact that we can voice them here. But don't fu'n call me chubby. it's chub! Got it! :D

chub
10-14-2003, 05:30 PM
Employee's are hired by employeers because they want to expand their business. If you don't want to expand your business, don't hire folks because if you want a business you gotta pay for it just like a TV. People make your company.

bordsmnj
10-14-2003, 05:32 PM
entitlement? snicker snicker :p you gotta be kidding me. i earn mine. before joining the union for ten years i was promissed health benifits from every other contractor i worked for. i've never even had it. untill i joined the union. what is it about unions that scare you poeple anyway?

little rowe boat
10-14-2003, 05:34 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bordsmnj:
[QB] i will honor union picket lines. i have worked in my trade both non-union and now union. it's easy to sit there and badmouth unions that y'all don't know shit about. you take shit from your company after making them a profit(=peon). remember united we bargain-devided we beg. today they take away your benifits one by one. then they take away your raises. then in the name of profit they give your job to some wet back as a thankyou for your years of service to that company. i've been there done that. i don't believe all the self centered bull shit i'm reading here. my union shop has done well for over 25 years. when you compare our work with the average non-union shop it's easy to see we'll be around for 25 more. these people picketing are there for more than just having their benifits snaked. oh, and i have a question: are any of the people responsible for profit margins and offering contracts to lower workers taking a pay cut? or giving up pensions? or paying more for medical? i don't see whats wrong with standing up to these ****s. thats my take if yuh don't like it. KIss my ass-SCAB!
AMEN TO THAT. I could not agree more.I use to work for a non union trucking company out of the city of industry about 18 yrs. ago.The owners of that Company did not give a shit about it's employees,they under paid and overworked us day in day out. If my truck was stopped at the scales for any reason what so ever.I got disciplined.After so many hours on the road by law a truck driver is required to take a rest stop,they would threaten me if I took that rest stop they would dock my pay for that time I had stopped.It wasn't until we brought up that we were looking into going union and bringing union reps around that they changed their way of thinking.They use to treat us like dog shit.SO YES UNIONS ARE STILL A NECESSITY. argue

CA Stu
10-14-2003, 05:40 PM
chub:
Ca Stu I respect your opinion and love the fact that we can voice them here. But don't fu'n call me chubby. it's chub! Got it! :D Chub, my bad :D
CA Stu

lovemyultra
10-14-2003, 05:45 PM
Chub are you a carpenter by chance? Please everybody try to understand that we cannot use the word Union so generally there are several different organizations carpenters ,laborers ,teamsters etc and they are all different some are not dong well and some are doing nothing but good for the economy

Havasu Hangin'
10-14-2003, 05:48 PM
Well...all throw my 2 cents in as somewhat of an "insider".
In case you haven't noticed, the grocery industry has gone through some changes over the past few years. Consolidation.
There are three big players now, where there used to be eight. Ralphs-305 stores (and Food 4 Less-110 stores), Albertsons-320 stores, and Vons- 330 stores. These three companies carry over an 70 market share in So Cal.
Ralphs is owned by the second largest retailer- Kroger. Vons is owned by the third largest- Safeway. Albertsons is based in Boise, and is the 4th largest.
Wal Mart is number one. Ahold is not in this market.
Now, these companies have been on such a buying binge, that they are severly leveraged. The consumer is the loser. For example, Alpha Beta and Lucky (before being purchased by Kroger and Albertsons) used to operate on a blended grocery margin of 18%-20%. That was it. Now, they operate on a blended margin of over 31%- Who loses? We do (margin is not adjusted for inflation). Prices have risen to pay for acquisition.
Now, does anyone remember when Lucky tried to buy Alpha Beta in the early 80's? Van de Campe stopped it because it was "a potential monopoly" (and that was only a 12 share point merger). But now, Gray Davis has allowed the consilodation...the three now control such a large share, that they can manipulate the market.
For example, with the exception of "traffic" draw items (those ads designed to get you in the store and make you buy higher margin items once you get there), Ralphs will price itself 4%-9% higher than Vons, and Albertsons falls in the middle. A monopoly.
An example of a monopoly is that Ralphs charges me $35,000 to authorize one item for one facing. For that, you get 3 months to get the volume up, or they will discontinue the item.
Vons wants $75,000 for a one week display program.
Albertsons charges $30,000 slotting.
Who loses? We do. The manufacturers have to raise the costs to cover the slotting fees....it is passed on (over 30% markup) to us poor shoppers.
Enter a little chain called Wal Mart. Wal Mart "Supercenters" are not here yet- the first one is being built in Palm Desert...due to open in January. These stores are not what we are used to seeing- Sam stacks 'em high and sells 'em cheap (like the old days). Wal Mart is all "cost of goods" driven- no hidden lump sums to do business- what a nice concept.
Hence, the big three are really scared. They know they cannot compete because of the margins needed to cover debt.
Now comes the labor dispute. The big three are using Wal Mart and Costco as an excuse (they are non-union), but the reality is that they did it to themselves- a self-fulfilling prophecy.
The average UFCW worker makes pretty good money, but they also pay union dues, and are united with the meatcutters and Teamsters (truck drivers).
Since these companies are so large now (national- not market), that they think they can strongarm the union into cutting benefits.
The dispute is merely the tip of the iceberg.
[ October 14, 2003, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: Havasu Hangin' ]

572Daytona
10-14-2003, 06:02 PM
When WalMart and KMart opened their supercenters here it was good for the consumers. Prices are much better their and the local Krogers, etc had to lower their prices as well.

Havasu Hangin'
10-14-2003, 06:11 PM
572Daytona:
When WalMart and KMart opened their supercenters here it was good for the consumers. Prices are much better their and the local Krogers, etc had to lower their prices as well. Yeah...Sam operates on a very low margin, and leverages his buying power.
Costco is another low margin operator- they take 5%-10% to cover operating costs, and use the membership fees as a profit center.
If Costco gets a good deal from a vendor, it'll probably be a good deal to the consumer.
By the way- So Cal grocery stores have different prices in different areas. For Example, Ralphs has 18 different pricing zones, where they manipulate the price based on what they think they can charge to the consumers in that neighborhood.
[ October 14, 2003, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: Havasu Hangin' ]

Jbb
10-14-2003, 06:16 PM
I shop at the Piggly Wiggly...!... :D

SandbarScot
10-14-2003, 06:23 PM
This thread is really educational. I see both sides and have worked retail union and non-union. I will point this out: I work for a county government and my association negotiates a contract with the county for them to pay a certain dollar amount for health insurance. If health insurance costs go up before our contract expires (and it has DRASTICALLY) then I HAVE TO PAY THE DIFFERENCE!
The retail clerks have benefitted from the employer always paying these ridiculous increases which is now coming to a halt.
I feel for them, but this is real world..they are going to have to pay for part of their health care like the rest of us. However, I support the union because the Walmarts and Home Depots of this world will screw the employee if it saves them a buck. Tough issue here.

RiverReady2
10-14-2003, 06:27 PM
Hi everyone!! This is Mrs.RiverReady2. I work at Ralphs. Here is a list of all the things that the employeers are proposing:
1. No wage increase till October 3, 2005
2. No maintaince on benefits
3. Drastic cuts in benefits
4. New 7800 hr. progression
5. New top pay rate $2.80 below current top rates
6. Drastically reduce pension accruals
7. Allow two 8 hr. shifts within a 10 hr. period of time
8. Shorten night premium pay 4 hours (currently 6pm to 6am, proposed 10pm to 6am)
9. Elimanate sunday premium pay
10. No pensions for future courtesy clerks
I agree with you about giving customers a hard time when going into these stores. Its not right. But for the most part, the reason why picketers stand by the doors is to ask if the customer would shop at Stater Bros. or Food 4 less, or other union stores in town during the strike/lockout. We are also picketing by the doors to give customers information about why we are on strike. alot of people don't know all the reasons and think we are being selfish because we want to get paid more, which is not the case.
Yes we do get paid a decent wage, but we also work really hard. I can't think of anyone that I work with that takes advantage of the unions protection by being lazy.
My decent wage that the union has worked to get over the years souly pays for my college education.....and our boat. wink I use my job to pay for my eduaction but you have to understant that there are people who have made this their career and have depended on our wages for years to support thier familys.
I just thought I would give you some first hand info.
-Nichole boxed

Kilrtoy
10-14-2003, 06:31 PM
I see all of my friends are here and no one has blamed Gray Davis. WOW
I will agree, if you choose to shop at the store the people on strike should not bother you. But otherwise I'll shop at Costco which pays even better than the market..... argue

Jrocket
10-14-2003, 06:39 PM
Unions http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/happy/1/happy34.gif

mickeyfinn
10-14-2003, 06:48 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by RiverReady2:
[QB] Hi everyone!! This is Mrs.RiverReady2. I work at Ralphs. Here is a list of all the things that the employeers are proposing:
1. No wage increase till October 3, 2005
2. No maintaince on benefits
3. Drastic cuts in benefits
4. New 7800 hr. progression
5. New top pay rate $2.80 below current top rates
6. Drastically reduce pension accruals
7. Allow two 8 hr. shifts within a 10 hr. period of time
8. Shorten night premium pay 4 hours (currently 6pm to 6am, proposed 10pm to 6am)
9. Elimanate sunday premium pay
10. No pensions for future courtesy clerks
QUOTE]
The company I work for just put in place a salary freeze until the economy looks better. We have been steadily seeing increases in our healthcare cost and share a percentage of that increase with the employer. We do get a night shift differential but no premium pay for holidays or weekends. Not sure how you plan to work 2 8 hour shifts over a 10 hour period but good luck trying. Our company has people who are glad to work here and understand why things are the way they are. The company has treated us well during the times when the economy was good and looks to us for help when things get a little tougher. The company owners actually polled the employees to find out whether we would prefer the salary freeze or if we would prefer lay-offs. We have no union and even if we did the union would only make things worse. We continue to make a livable wage and have faith that when things pick back up we will benefit. As for grocery workers deserving the money they get I don't know. Never worked in that industry but it doesn't look like much education is really required nor a lot of physical effort other than the ability to stand for long periods of time. If you are a cashier in that industry your replacement may look a lot like this:
http://home.mindspring.com/~hypermarine/biz_selfcheck.jpg
I don't fault anyone for making as much money as they can for themselves. My problem is with the mob mentality of the union exhorting money from the business.The mentality seems to be that it is a bottomless well and that you can continue to reach deeper and deeper and it will never run dry.....As I said in a previous post:
Look at the airlines. They are just now starting to see the effect on employees of the unions non supporting role.

missboatnam1
10-14-2003, 06:50 PM
i wont cross the lines to shop, i went into the albertsons here, and they were not rude at all, they just explained why they were on strike, and that they hoped i wouldent cross the line, i just explained i was getting money out of the bofa inside.....i agree with the strike!!..i just hope it dosent go on for a long period of time...
just my .02

DickDanger
10-14-2003, 06:50 PM
Havasu Hangin never ceases to blow me away with how well informed he is!!!!
Yes, I can see both sides of the coin. However, how many people on here that have worked a job for longer than 5 years, are willing to quit their jobs over something that they dont care for? Please raise your hands. I take it that EVERYONE that is chiming in about the "poor overpaid grocery workers" is 100% happy at their job then? Wow, I totally envy you!!!!!
Yes, it is our elected politicians that are driving the cost of health care up, as well as all of the illegals that immigrate into our country, which in turn keeps the price of certain consumer costs reasonable due to lower wages for labor, etc. etc.
The union is not asking for anything new here. They are asking for the SAME things that they have received for however many years. And that is unreasonable??? For you to cross their picket lines, is in the same vein as my coming to take a shit on your desk at work when you are unhappy with something concerning your employer. Please give me your business address, so that I may do that.
You may not agree with the union, or the workers, but try to respect their beliefs, even if you dont agree with them. I am sure that you would ask the same of others that dont share YOUR view.
-DD Out

Trailer Park Casanova
10-14-2003, 06:56 PM
Several excellent people I've met off this board are walking a grocery store picket line right now.
You all know them either from posts,,, or in person at a RD function.
I feel for them and can imagine that they're thinking their future doesn't look to bright.
All have 5 stars, top shelf people. I feel for them, and I don't think $17.60 is a very big wage.
A 2 bedroom 1 bath apartment rents here in Simi for $1300 a month. That ain't cheap.
Retail Clerks Union at one time held the industry by the balls. Their mistake was not creating a wellfunded structured healthplan and pension like the Electrical workers, Steel industry (Kaiser), Pipefitters and several other big unions back when Retail Clerks had the chance.
So now, with Wall Mart super grocery stores opening, (40 in the LA area alone), the grocers and the unions are in trouble.
I remember back some time when retail clerks went on strike, people lined up outside the grocery store for hours. They'd unlock the door, let 5 people in to shop,, then lock the door, then let them out and 5 more shoppers in and so on, for the duration of the strike.
Some years ago too, retail clerks backed and elected Politians,, they were that powerful.
No more,, and I think they blew it years ago when they kept the burden of benefits on the employer, when they should have been planing for and investing themselves in their own future.
"Don't say f*ck the future, The future f*cks you".
- The Paint Store owner in the movie; Saturday night fever".
[ October 14, 2003, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: Trailer Park Casanova ]

mickeyfinn
10-14-2003, 07:00 PM
[ October 14, 2003, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: mickeyfinn ]

257
10-14-2003, 07:42 PM
Hot Diggity
I had those scum bag union asses picket my business when i was building a new tilt up
i was building in temecula and they picketed
in escondido because the carpenters were not
union, funniest thing was the people there
were hired from man power and paying them
$5.50 an hour screw the unions there place
was back before most of use were born and i
have to agree the ralph,s vons etc screw there
employees in many ways you have to have the inside
story lots of kiss assing and back stabbing
i feel better i vented
everyone be safe this weekend at havsau

locogringo
10-14-2003, 08:21 PM
I never used to shop at these places, but know I go in there 2-3 times a day just to buy piddly shit so they can see me walking out with something. Today, I picked up some free home giudes and a bottle of water. I put it in a Vons bag and walked out looking like I bought a bag full of stuff.
For the last 3 days, every time that I have gone in, they ask me to support their cause and not cross the picket line. I look them dead in the eyes and ask them how much they pay for their health insurance because I pay $350 a month. They start stammering and I told them to shut the hell up and go find another job if they aren't happy with it.
Let's see how tomorrow goes! :D :D :D wink
Oh, and as soon as these strikes are over, I will never go into these stores again because these picketers are so friggin' stupid and brainwashed into thinking "poor me" (granted, I didn't shop here before either).
[ October 14, 2003, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: locogringo ]

C-2
10-14-2003, 08:26 PM
How many of us walk into a car dealership, see the asking price and then leave in disgust without making a counter-offer? I think the union is screwing its members by failing to negotiate. Sure, the markets are asking for a lot, but geesh, get in there and talk about an agreement. Don’t be so arrogant to think that you have enough juice to walk out.
Many city and government agencies are corrupt; unions are the same. And like politicians or government officials, a lot of big ego’s govern the decision making process…without concern for their members best interest.
I thought there would be a lot more support for the union…but this thread has demonstrated that like it or not, people are not happy with the union’s tactics.
The only people that lose in a strike is EVERYBODY.
BTW
I may not believe in the ideology or necessity of a union in this day and age, but I support them. On the same token, I too am like many people on this board; if you don’t like what your employer does…then leave.
:)

bigq
10-14-2003, 08:35 PM
chub:
Why is everyone pissed at the union and not f'n yellin and screaming at their congressman/senator/ our great President about healthcare costs., I can't beleive you cant' figure out........ Heathcare cost are out of control..... it's not the unions, it's the healthcare industry.. WAKE UP!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: More union mindset, it's not their job to control healthcare, healthcare is not right. That said we do need to take care of people that can't truly afford the healthcare.

River Ric
10-14-2003, 09:24 PM
Reading all of these posts answers the question of how Gray Dufus got elected to a second term. Like some many of you said,"If you don't like the company you work for, then go find another one. I counted over 1500 unskilled jobs in the L.A. Times this weekend alone. My first real job was working for Albertson's. I started in 1973. It was a great learning experience. Once I got out of college, I wanted to get a BETTER job. One that I could set my pay and hours. I have been in Sales ever since.I get paid very well, only due to the fact that I work 50 plus hrs. a week. Sometimes more. Yet I still find the time to see my sons football games and watch my daughter compete in open-class rodeo, she's awesome!! I get plenty of vacation time because I produce plenty of revenue for the company. They REWARD me with these types of perks. I still hgave to pay over $400.00 a month for health care. They pay the $300.00 for my family. If they didn't, I would find another company that would. I negotiate my own income due to the level of sales that I provide. If I don't make sales to my customers then the company would FIRE me!! This is called a FREE MARKET SOCIETY, for all of you that missed that day in Econ.101. There is no right to any level of pay, only to the level of pay you have earned. There once was a need for Labor Unions. They provided support to individuals that would take advantage of workers. Those times are gone due to all of the crazy government regulations that are in place. When we look for a new sales person, we look for a top performer. Someone who will come in and make the company and him or herself lots of money. This is how it works. I once heard a TOP Performer in Sales say that"The only way that you can guarantee yourself to have job security is to be in the TOP 20% of your industry." "The world rewards those that take chances." My grandfather used to say that. He helped invet the Atomic Bomb. He used to say that "we used the bombs on Japan so that no one would ever use them again." He was right. Just my 2 cents worth!!!! idea

little rowe boat
10-14-2003, 09:35 PM
Believe me those times are not gone.Business owners not all some still treat there employees like dirt and threaten them with termination.As stated in an earlier post I use to work for a trucking co. out of the city of industry it was non union and the owners used intimidation and did not care about anything but lining their pockets. argue

MagicMtnDan
10-14-2003, 09:43 PM
DickDanger:
The union is not asking for anything new here. They are asking for the SAME things that they have received for however many years. And that is unreasonable??? For you to cross their picket lines, is in the same vein as my coming to take a shit on your desk at work when you are unhappy with something concerning your employer. Please give me your business address, so that I may do that. Look, when I/we at my company have issues do I picket? Do I ask visitors not to cross my picket line? Of course not. I try to work things out and if I can't then I go looking for a new job or they go looking for a new me.
If these grocery store people don't like what's going on then fine they can strike. And I can and will still go into the store to buy what I need for my family.
As for comparing my crossing a picket line to your taking a $hit on my desk let's just say you're obviously someone who can do no better than use scatological (an obsession with excrement or excretory functions) references in discussions.

boatnam2
10-14-2003, 09:52 PM
man some of the stuff i read on this thread i just have to shake my head at.this is going to be a big issue in america.this is not a union issue it is a heatlh care and retirement issue.i work for a refinery huge company world wide 100,000 employes.they just cut are benefits and retirement and it is not even contract time.anyone being hired after april 1 will not get a retirement.but the ceo just got a 58% increase in wages.again it is not an union issue but greed.so the chumps that think it will not happen to them ,they work for a great company and earn there benefits blah blah blah.the big companys start with the hardest to beat down union jobs and if they win the rest will be like shooting fish in a barrel.see everyone at the free clinic.

C-2
10-14-2003, 10:21 PM
This thread is ironic.
On the one hand you have people bitching about what could be taken away from employees, which after you slice thru all the b.s., boils down to money in employee’s pockets (or lack thereof). Yet money in business owners or managers pockets (god forbid) is an evil thing and considered greedy?
Splain the difference to me Lucy?
Not many businesses I’m aware of are in it because they are kind hearted souls and wanna help people out. The name of the game is making money. Always has been, and will always be.

boatnam2
10-14-2003, 10:32 PM
c-2 you are so right, i have changed my way of thinking and will work for free and wont worry about my family or if they can go to the doctors if they are sick.i didnt start the company and shouldn't expect to work for a good wage and have health care.maybe we can go to a new system with the have and have nots the rich bussiness owners can give us a little food for a hard days work.

C-2
10-14-2003, 10:41 PM
This is America…you can make as much money as you choose to (so long as it’s legal and you pay your taxes). Make enough of it and healthcare costs and retirement are not an issue.
BTW boatnam2
My post was not a dig at you, only pointing out the irony of the thread. wink

Rexone
10-15-2003, 12:44 AM
[ October 15, 2003, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: Rexone ]

boatnam2
10-15-2003, 03:13 AM
the real problem is health care i totally agree,there just like every other company that has to make billions of dollars.wal mart what a frigging joke 5 of the 7 richest people in america are the wal mart kids worth an estimated 20 billion each.how did they get there i wonder.if they each put up a billion each im sure that would more then cover some of there employes benefits and they would still have more money then they will ever be able to spend.

Havasu Hangin'
10-15-2003, 03:45 AM
DickDanger:
Havasu Hangin never ceases to blow me away with how well informed he is!Thanks, DD...as usual, I know just enough to get myself in trouble- no more, no less.
BTW, there are no "professional" picketers. These are people who think that they're livelihood is in jeopardy, so they react accordingly.
If you don't like crossing a line, Stater Brothers and Food 4 Less signed a Sweetheart contract, which means business as usual.
Independants like Gelsons and Super A are non-union, so no picketing there.
There are choices.

Buff
10-15-2003, 05:38 AM
The wealth in our great country is being concentrated in less and less people's hands. Sometime in the not too distant future it'll reach a critical point and serious violence will ensue and this country of ours will far into seriously ill and terrible times.
The organizing of labor - especially unskilled labor - allows huge numbers of our citizens to truly participate in The American Dream. i.e. buy a house, raise a family, etc. with the fruit of their labor. The Unions, so empowered, often abuse their power but for a worker who is putting his or her labor and time on the market the union is preferable over relying on the fairness of management. I mean polio is no picnic but it beats the hell out of cancer! (Sorry for the lame analogy.)
Unskilled organized labor does not deny entrepreneurship but rather assists it. Unskilled but organized labor will gladly apply their time and labor to build businesses so that those so inclined can make huge amounts of profit and buy mansions and Mercedes' galore. All organized labor desires is a wage that will allow them to participate in the American Dream and buy modest houses and Chevies and Fords. Unorganized labor, the discount houses and etc., rely on the fairness of business owners and management; consequently, they work for substandard wages. That means they cannot fully participate in the American Dream. Try and buy a house here in Southern Calif. on wages paid to you at Walmart.
The Unions are in demise! Membership is down. Is it a coincidence that the concentration of wealth is going into less and less people's hands at Skater-like speed?
Sure - learn a skill - and sell that and yourself for what the market will bear. That is the American ideal; but the reality is, and has been, and will continue to be, that most Americans possess no marketable skills. Only the insturment of organization will right our ship which today is steaming towards terrible waters. (sorry)
It is not greed on Union members part but rather the very survival of our country that is at stake on those picket lines.
I'm sorry for the soap box bullshit here but I commiserate with those people out there. Buff

DickDanger
10-15-2003, 06:11 AM
Its pretty amazing, and just confirms the California elitist attitude of "**** everyone else, its all about me" that I see all too often. Since a few people on here pay for their health insurance (myself included) the mentality seems to be "well, I pay for my coverage, so should they!!!!" instead of "hey, at least SOMEONE in this state isnt getting as screwed as I am."
Again, it is MY opinion, that you people that cross their picket lines (congratulate your big bad self) are making yourself look like idiots. Dont hate on people that are fighting to keep what they have, and you dont have. Again, I challenge ANY of you on here to say that you would simply lay down and roll over if YOU were in their shoes.
Also, I am sure that a few people in this thread voted for that corrupt piece of shit Gray Davis, so be angry at yourselves for that as well. Go to your bedroom door, take your nutsack out, place it in between the door and jamb and start slamming the door. Cos thats what you did to the rest of us when you voted for his dumb ass. -DD Out

mickeyfinn
10-15-2003, 06:22 AM
organized unskilled labor????.....BULLSHIT!!
The idea of business having to cater to the whims of those with no marketable skills only because they have organized together and threaten to bring production or other work to a standstill should be seen as no different than me jumping in front of a moving truck and saying I'm not moving until you give me a job and pay me enough to buy a house. This is just another liberal method of income redistribution. If labor is truly in scarce supply and business need it they will compete in their pay offerings and the company that can afford the labor will prevail. Forcing the market to pay more than market price only serves to reduce the wages over time of those who did take the time, expense and dedication to prepare themselves for their working career. It also serves to increase prices making living the "American Dream" more and more difficult for those who did not develop marketable skills and have chosen to work in the work place in a non-union atmosphere. I have worked in both. If the union truly only worried about its members recieving a FAIR wage with benefits in accordance with what the total salary package is actually worth on the market for that particular skill set the unions would not exists. The unions seek to pry as much money from the hands of business as possible without giving a damn what effect it has on the financial well being of the company or the economic future of its members if the company were to go bust. Mean-while all of the major unions have upper echelon leaders who are paid thru union dues salaries, benefits higher than any of the members recieve. I would love to see companies begin to refuse to negotiate with the labor unions and when the inevitable strike occurs, immediately reduce operations, continue to pay the non-union people and slowly replace the union work force one by one until the business is back to full staff. The unions and its members are slowly sucking the life blood out of this country. Why do you think the democrats are such heavy supporters of the unions? Because it is just another way of easing this country toward socialism.

bigq
10-15-2003, 07:35 AM
DickDanger:
Its pretty amazing, and just confirms the California elitist attitude of "**** everyone else, its all about me" that I see all too often. Since a few people on here pay for their health insurance (myself included) the mentality seems to be "well, I pay for my coverage, so should they!!!!" instead of "hey, at least SOMEONE in this state isnt getting as screwed as I am."
Again, it is MY opinion, that you people that cross their picket lines (congratulate your big bad self) are making yourself look like idiots. Dont hate on people that are fighting to keep what they have, and you dont have. Again, I challenge ANY of you on here to say that you would simply lay down and roll over if YOU were in their shoes.
Also, I am sure that a few people in this thread voted for that corrupt piece of shit Gray Davis, so be angry at yourselves for that as well. Go to your bedroom door, take your nutsack out, place it in between the door and jamb and start slamming the door. Cos thats what you did to the rest of us when you voted for his dumb ass. -DD Out That may not be fair for all the elitist. Some might be as high and mighty as you claim to be. maybe these employees are a bunch of California whinners and it's all about them, gimmie, gimmie. They say we love to work here and like the company, but as soon as a company is in trouble and ask for some help to stay afloat or compete, the mentally changes to , **** the company they make all the money, big companies are screwing us. It is nice to have the insurance paid, I have had it both ways. I hope they get what they want, but I still need to shop. I think ill start going to walmart. wink

Charley
10-15-2003, 07:52 AM
Im gonna dip in here...just as a business owner. over the last year the rising cost of Workman's comp and Health Insurance has taken a major bite out of my bottom line. To be honest with you It really pisses me off. I own a small company and in my industry less than half of my competitors even offer health care but I do. When I implemented it about 4 years ago it was a reasonable monetary contribution for my 10 employees, and a way for me to say thankyou to my employees. Today I have 20+ employees and earlier this year when we got word of the increase in our health insurance premiums I had to make a call.... we have to look at some other plans here. We did and found that by switching providers we could keep the premiums about the same but the co-pay went up by $10 etc... My point is simple... Compromise .. Companies need to make a fair profit, Employees need a fair wage. I did a little search and those big grocery stores are working on a 1.5% - 2.5% profit margin..... That sucks! I believe Ralphs has experienced a drop from 2.5% to 1.6% over the last 3 years. Guess what guys.... they need to do something about it! Guess what else... They will! @ 1.6% profit there isnt much room to hand out raises and increase benefits...someone mentioned earlier these stores are taking away pensions from people.... cmon that's not legal and thats not true! They are probably saying they cant match $1 for $1 anymore... Guess what ...they can! If these people that work at the stores don't like the pay and benefits...pick up the want ADs! See the real problem in my humble opinion is the "Cost of doing business" in California.... Workman's comp is up for a reason... Bullshit Claims! I have a kid who claims to have hurt himself on one of my jobs almost 2 years ago.... he's 20 years old and sits around in his mommy's house in Coto De Caza and watches TV all day, collecting a check. Oh well actually one of my other workers did see him Snow boarding about 3 weeks after his accident....get the picture... absolute BULLSHIT!
Situations like this are a LARGE part of the problem. The "politically correctness" and "liberal" attitudes are blindng or choking our society from finding out the Truth.
Closing: As a business owner I have to turn a profit that I can justify in my mind is fair for the labor, time, costs ,effort and materials that were put forward. If at the end of the day I dont feel like my profit is fair I make some changes and some concessions. If I make changes again and again and I'm still not making a fair profit for my efforts and liabilities... I should give it up.
Employees should do the same

Havasu_Dreamin
10-15-2003, 09:09 AM
Excellent post Charley!

Havasu Hangin'
10-15-2003, 09:29 AM
Charley:
I did a little search and those big grocery stores are working on a 1.5% - 2.5% profit margin..... That sucks! I believe Ralphs has experienced a drop from 2.5% to 1.6% over the last 3 years.Ralphs operates on a much higher gross margin than that (they take 40%+ on some items).
Operating costs are controlable, but Kroger controls $ profit requirements. Ralphs is a "non-coordinated" Kroger operation, but any net shift in margin is dictated by Kroger- not operating costs.
Stater Brothers, who is a smaller, regional player (and a union shop), makes much less margin but is much more profitable.
Staters is happy paying union wages and benefits, makes good profits, and is still a better value to the consumers- just compare prices.
Have you figured it out yet?

bigq
10-15-2003, 09:56 AM
Havasu Hangin':
Charley:
I did a little search and those big grocery stores are working on a 1.5% - 2.5% profit margin..... That sucks! I believe Ralphs has experienced a drop from 2.5% to 1.6% over the last 3 years.Ralphs operates on a much higher gross margin than that (they take 40%+ on some items).
Operating costs are controlable, but Kroger controls $ profit requirements. Ralphs is a "non-coordinated" Kroger operation, but any net shift in margin is dictated by Kroger- not operating costs.
Stater Brothers, who is a smaller, regional player (and a union shop), makes much less margin but is much more profitable.
Staters is happy paying union wages and benefits, makes good profits, and is still a better value to the consumers- just compare prices.
Have you figured it out yet? :confused: :confused: :confused:

bigq
10-15-2003, 09:57 AM
Charley, you make a profit? How can you live with yourself? wink

Dave C
10-15-2003, 10:01 AM
Saying that wealth is concentrated to fewer hands is socialist propaganda.
In 2000, over 65% of individual tax returns had dividend income list on them.
More than 70% of households own common stock, directly or indirectly.
This means that actual ownership of wealth in this country is expanding to more and more people.
Dave C <---- turns profit, is NOT guilty and pays for & knows how much his & families health insurance costs! eek! ........
[ October 15, 2003, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: Dave C ]

Dave C
10-15-2003, 10:14 AM
I think you have to make the distinction between gross & net margin for people.
Gross margin= Revenues less Cost of goods means little to nothing to the investor, because:
Net margin= Revenues, less COGS, less operating costs, is the actual profit margin. This is important because it demonstrates the actual profit margin for the entire company.
Investors care about the final profit margin and EPS. (profit divided by shares outstanding)
The gross margin is nice but an inefficient companies operating expenses can reduce the gross margin to zero or negative number.
So investors evaluate the “management efficiency” by looking at the difference between the net and gross margin.
But EPS is the number that investors look at.
With that, less than 2% net profit margin is razor thin but typical of the grocery market as a whole.
DaveC<--- proud capitalist scumbag.
[ October 15, 2003, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: Dave C ]

Havasu Hangin'
10-15-2003, 10:31 AM
Those three retailers are being given net profit requirements from Pleasanton, Boise, and Cincinnati- not So Cal.
Dave C:
...less than 2% net profit margin is razor thin but typical of the grocery market as a whole.Yes...I'll take 2% of billions any day.
Get it yet?
HH <-------- thinks talking in the third person is ridiculous
[ October 15, 2003, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: Havasu Hangin' ]

Charley
10-15-2003, 10:32 AM
bigq:
Charley, you make a profit? How can you live with yourself? wink LMAO
I swear it aint what it should be.... back about 3-4 years ago when I was doing half the business I am today I was taking home more, granted I was working a little harder but it makes you wonder why grow!! the bigger you get the less your profit.... I must confess I am proud of what I have and what I do, but equally proud that I employ 20+ people 75% of which have families that depend on my humble little shop. If California continues to make it tough on business the working people are the ones who will suffer..period. I just heard that in 2004 all companies with 200 or more employess will be required to pay for 100% of an employee's and his/her entire family's healthcare.. WOW... now If this rumour is true how many employers will be Hiring SINGLE people and how many employers will cap themselves at 195 employees! all the smart ones! tell me who loses?? The worker and his family!
Arny best shape up Caleeefornia before it :mad: sinks

68campbell
10-15-2003, 10:35 AM
I want to preface my .02¢ with the statement that I believe that the unions today are nothing more than a legal brute squad.
With that said; The problem here isn't them, it isn't the stores, it isn't the employees, its the liberals and the trial lawyers. Every time I try to cut costs or make my company more efficient there is some Gloria Allred type convincing the lazy week minded segment of our population that they deserve more and they should sue. In the end we are all hurt by the people who claim they are only here to protect us. If the legal system keeps going as it has been, be prepared to pay $100 for a single tomato, because that price will include charges for everything from workmans comp to malpractice ins to health benifits for dirt it grows in.
Have a nice day!

Charley
10-15-2003, 10:37 AM
Havasu Hangin':
Those three retailers are being given net profit requirements from Pleasanton, Boise, and Cincinnati- not So Cal.
Dave C:
...less than 2% net profit margin is razor thin but typical of the grocery market as a whole.Yes...I'll take 2% of billions any day.
Get it yet? No I dont get it.. it still sux in my mind
2% of a billion is still 20% of 100 million
Grocery store vs smaller- good return corp??
I'll take the latter of the 2 everyday of the week. Guess what else I will not have 10x the employees = 10x my ass hanging out in the wind from a bullshit work comp or liabilty claim when some idiot drops a box of fruit on his toe while loading it. Sorry 2% sux, I don't get it

Charley
10-15-2003, 10:38 AM
68campbell:
I want to preface my .02¢ with the statement that I believe that the unions today are nothing more than a legal brute squad.
With that said; The problem here isn't them, it isn't the stores, it isn't the employees, its the liberals and the trial lawyers. Every time I try to cut costs or make my company more efficient there is some Gloria Allred type convincing the lazy week minded segment of our population that they deserve more and they should sue. In the end we are all hurt by the people who claim they are only here to protect us. If the legal system keeps going as it has been, be prepared to pay $100 for a single tomato, because that price will include charges for everything from workmans comp to malpractice ins to health benifits for dirt it grows in.
Have a nice day! BRAVO! nicely said wink

Havasu Hangin'
10-15-2003, 10:48 AM
Charley:
.. it still sux in my mind
2% of a billion...I think I said billionS.
Actually, it is a very high volume, recession-proof industry. In fact, in a bad economy, grocery sales go up as foodservice sales decline.
As for margin vs volume...just look at Gelsons. High profit- low volume.
I know a guy that operates 12 stores in So Cal, and is a multi-millionaire...just from selling groceries.
If you don't like the small percentages, Charley, then don't buy a grocery store. Leave the nickles and dimes to guys like Sam Walton.
HH <-------- still thinks talking in the third person is ridiculous.

Seadog
10-15-2003, 11:02 AM
Over the years I have seen the harm that unions can cause. I have also seen the harm that unprincipled management can do. Two wrongs do not make a right, period. Nothing makes me angrier than reports about how some CEO raids the retirement fund and gets paid big bucks. That is why we have a justice system and laws to prevent such crimes. The only way they get away with it is because some lawyer found a loophole in the law. Our laws are becoming so complicated as to allow a kid to be thrown in jail for taking prescription medicine while allowing murderers and others that destroy lives to enjoy the lap of luxury.
I have seen unions go on strike every contract time for raises that did not cover the money lost by the strike. Most of the employees would have to try and find part-time jobs until the strike was over. Finally, due to foreign competition, the company said that they could no longer afford paying $60,000 + full benefits for unskilled labor and requested a pay cut. The union said no. A factory employing thousands in a 50 mile radius was closed. No other business went in and many of the existing businesses closed because no one had any money. A thriving town is still trying to recover after over twenty years.
I have seen my wife work twice as hard because the union was protecting the lazy incompetents and so those who believed in hard work, had to carry the load. The bums got promoted because it was the only way to get rid of them, or they got promoted because of senority, not merit.
My Dad ran production at a coal strip mine. The company hit hard times and filed bankrupcy. The court determined that the union workers were being paid way more than the going market rate and reduced their pay 10%. They responded by doing 50% less work. The company folded.
A good union is one that works as a partner to a good company. Few employers don't know that the key to long term success is to have hard working enthusiatic employees. They are willing to do anything reasonable to keep the good employees happy.

Charley
10-15-2003, 11:16 AM
Havasu Hangin':
Charley:
.. it still sux in my mind
2% of a billion...I think I said billionS.
Actually, it is a very high volume, recession-proof industry. In fact, in a bad economy, grocery sales go up as foodservice sales decline.
As for margin vs volume...just look at Gelsons. High profit- low volume.
I know a guy that operates 12 stores in So Cal, and is a multi-millionaire...just from selling groceries.
If you don't like the small percentages, Charley, then don't buy a grocery store. Leave the nickles and dimes to guys like Sam Walton.
HH <-------- still thinks talking in the third person is ridiculous. I still don't like it HH...sorry.. Gelsons is a much more attractive idea to me than being Mr Walmart...... Millionaire who has a great reputation, loyal customers and his own industry probably secretly wishes they had grown in his direction (heard of pavillions right?) vs billionaire who has 10's of thousands of enemies who despise his every business practice. The guy has so much money his own reality is warped! Th Same with Bill Gates and the other 100 richest people in the world...These guys have to hire body guards for their own kids! Impressive stories and all but I'd be happy being the millionaire with the ability to walk down the street with my family. jawdrop
HH.... I know you are the master of internet fights argue but I'm still holding wink :D

1stepcloser
10-15-2003, 11:26 AM
[edited by Havasu Hangin']:
Yes...I'll take 2% of billions any day.So would 1stepcloser. wink If he owned the corporation.
The company I work for is part of a worldwide corporation, with gross revenues in excess of 4.2 billion dollars last year.
We get an annual report on the state of the company, where this information is disclosed.
The reported margin of profit is just slightly less than 2%. (something on the order of 1.95%)
This works out to....lets see here, carry the one....divided by....
Holy Mother of God!!
eek! eek! 81.9 million dollars!! eek! eek!
Thats pretty impressive money. Particularly to a private company.
If 1stepcloser wink were the owner of such a company, he wink would be very proud, and would likely share that good fortune with his loyal employees through some type of profit sharing retirement plan.
He wink would likely be spending a good portion of said income on all types of frivilous things, ie: boats, race cars, traveling and any other tom foolery that comes to mind as well....but that is unrelated to this thread.
Eighty two million dollars in one year.
From a "razor thin" profit margin of less than 2%.
Thats alot of money for an individual.
Good thing he doesnt have to divide any of that with investors.
Not sure if I get it or not....

Seadog
10-15-2003, 11:31 AM
BTW, I am in the middle of trying to figure out my health care options for next year. We have four options. It is suppose to be that I am fully covered. Luckily my wife has her own insurance because for her to be covered under mine would be about $4-500/month. Here are my options. After figuring co-pays/out of pocket expenses/medication/plan adjustments/etc., I am looking at annual costs of $1000, $1200, $1600 or $2000. However, if I ever go to the hospital, the out-of-pocket for each plan goes $5500, $2000, $2800, $1000. We are going to go with plan B since it is the safest, but no matter how much I look at it, my costs are still going to be doubled from last year.
This year, I also lost $6000/year in OT benefits and we have not seen a pay raise in two years due to the economy. Ironically, I just got a notice that they are going to give us a $500 bonus because of the lack of pay raises ($301 after deductions). I can truly say that this year of my life sucks.
I can also look at when I got some great merit raises in the past and at those who no longer have jobs. When the economy suffers, we all suffer to some degree. Health care is going to get worse until the government stops playing petty politics and being on the dole to the lawyers, and does what is necessary to stop this spiral. Even then, it will be several years before it takes effect and there will be people that get hurt. The media and liberals will blow the failures all out of porportion. Life will go on.

68campbell
10-15-2003, 12:11 PM
Just a question. If the companies profit margin is 2%, and health care insurance goes up 50% and the wages go up 3% and there's a strike where little or no money comes in. Wouldn't that 2% of profit become a negative percent pretty easily?
Someone smart please explain this to me.

Havasu Hangin'
10-15-2003, 12:19 PM
Charley:
HH.... I know you are the master of internet fights argue but I'm still holding...As a famous philosopher once said..."he who picks fight with Charley should pick nose instead".
Now Charley...you know me by now. If I was really going to be a smartass, I'd say something like...
"Does anyone know how many phonebooks it takes Charley to screw in a lightbulb?"
But I won't do that.
68campbell:
Just a question. If the companies profit margin is 2%, and health care insurance goes up 50% and the wages go up 3% and there's a strike where little or no money comes in. Wouldn't that 2% of profit become a negative percent pretty easily?
Someone smart please explain this to me. If the heathcare costs are .1% of the operating costs, then it becomes .15%. The 50% increase is not directly proportional to the profit margin.
Oh wait...you said someone smart- nevermind

68campbell
10-15-2003, 12:25 PM
I get that part, but isn't building (or loosing) profit kind of like squeezing more HP from a engine. A lot of little things tend to add up, especially over time.

OGShocker
10-15-2003, 12:25 PM
Rexone:
The problem is the cost of health care.
• They should be angry at the lawyers who are the only ones making money here at the expense of everyone. (Every frivilous lawsuit and giant bloated unwarranted settlement paid just makes the lawyers fatter and fatter).
• They should also be angry at the guy standing beside them who didn't vote but is now whining and bitching that he or she's a poor victim of the big bad company.
Need to wake up, this problem isn't going away without some reform at government and legal system level. WS: "First, kill ALL the Lawyers"!

Havasu Hangin'
10-15-2003, 12:34 PM
68campbell:
I get that part, but isn't building (or loosing) profit kind of like squeezing more HP from a engine. A lot of little things tend to add up, especially over time. Finally...someone who gets it.
Some companies are more efficient (profitable) than others. For example, those companies who operate thier businesses with less debt, more labor cost will not affect them as much as a company that is leveraged to the gills.
Like Charley said, these empires being built need to be put in perspective.

1stepcloser
10-15-2003, 12:48 PM
Havasu Hangin':
Some companies are more efficient (profitable) than others. For example, those companies who operate thier businesses with less debt, more labor cost will not affect them as much as a company that is leveraged to the gills.Seems that the effect would be the same, declining profits. Regardless of the margin, the effects of inflatonary business costs would be felt on either level.
I understand your example, if I have 10 dollars, and lost one, it would not affect me the same as if I had only 3 dollars....but if I didnt have to lose that dollar in the first place....
HH:
Like Charley said, these empires being built need to be put in perspective. Agreed. however, it is all relative.

bigq
10-15-2003, 12:49 PM
Havasu Hangin':
68campbell:
I get that part, but isn't building (or loosing) profit kind of like squeezing more HP from a engine. A lot of little things tend to add up, especially over time. Finally...someone who gets it.
Some companies are more efficient (profitable) than others. For example, those companies who operate thier businesses with less debt, more labor cost will not affect them as much as a company that is leveraged to the gills.
Like Charley said, these empires being built need to be put in perspective. this still makes no sense.What is the difference where the cost come from.
high efficiency + Low Labor cost= good
High debt + low labor cost = bad
low debt + high Labor cost = bad
Whats the differnce, either way your profit margin is cut. And doesn't labor cost more than having debt?
Wayne <------ I need that third person talking. wink

Havasu Hangin'
10-15-2003, 01:16 PM
bigq:
Whats the differnce, either way your profit margin is cut. And doesn't labor cost more than having debt?Yes...but if you are more profitable (like Stater Brothers), then any additional cost (i.e. labor) will take a smaller percentage of net than a company who is less profitable.
A leveraged company is at the mercy of interest rates (a non-controlable cost).
HH <--------thinks the voices are only in his head

68campbell
10-15-2003, 02:05 PM
HH, you see my point.
Most of us normal business people still need every point of profit to ensure our continued success. The rising cost of doing business (especially in CA) forces us to do certain things. The large companies are doing the same. People (me included) will continue to take as much as they can, but if my companies entire staff decided to go on strike because I couldn't give them the same benefits as I did a year ago I'd either be out of business or would have a new staff.
With 89.1 billion in profit it would take longer to go out of business, but I would still get there.
My guess is that in the end we won't have any "normal" markets. We'll have to go to Wal-Mart for a six-pac.

Havasu Hangin'
10-15-2003, 02:40 PM
68campbell:
HH, you see my point.No, I don't.
Just kidding.
Actually, I'm not taking a side, I just have little sympathy for these companies, when others are obviously making it work.

Havasu Hangin'
10-15-2003, 02:49 PM
BTW...gents.
A little bird just told me that the Teamsters just walked off the job today at Albertsons and Vons distribution centers.

68campbell
10-15-2003, 03:00 PM
The teamsters walk off, this is going to get interesting.

My Man's Sportin' Wood
10-15-2003, 03:03 PM
I want to begin by thanking everyone who is supporting the retail clerks and meat cutters. I work for Staters until I finish my degree (hopefully in May) and though we are not on strike or locked out, our contract is under negotiation also.
I also want to say that it is so much better to see the discussion on this board than another board I frequent. Most people here are pretty calm about it and actually discuss issues, rather than curse the union and call each other idiots.
Riverready2, thanks for towing the line. All of us at Staters feel guilty that we get to go to work every day while you guys are locked out.
I have heard numerous tales of customers being yelled at and intimidated for shopping and this is a shame. There is no exuse for that, and I am ashamed that it's happening.
Shop where you want, feel how you wish about unions, but just remember, these people are your neighbors, and their kids go to school with yours. If they're not being rude, and it's not too much of an inconvenience, think about going to Food 4 Less, Trader Joes, or Staters.
BTW, I have no problem paying the piddly $100/month for health care. The $250 per person deductible would be a little hard to swallow, but the two hour lunches, phasing out of meat cutters, phasing out stock clerks and two-tier pay scale was too much for me. The two-tier pay scale means none of us currently working there will ever get more than 24 hours a week, while the new hires will get 40+ consistantly.
Those are just my views, don't bother telling me to get a new job, I'm working on that,
CUZ THE GROCERY INDUSTRY SUCKS!!!
I WANT WEEKENDS OFF!!!
MAYBE THEN I CAN GO TO THE RIVER ONCE IN A WHILE!
Angie
[ October 15, 2003, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: Mrs. Sportin' Wood ]

My Man's Sportin' Wood
10-15-2003, 03:05 PM
Havasu Hangin':
BTW...gents.
A little bird just told me that the Teamsters just walked off the job today at Albertsons and Vons distribution centers. Holy crap!! It's not going to get interesting, it's going to get ugly, those guys don't mess around!
[ October 15, 2003, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Mrs. Sportin' Wood ]

Charley
10-15-2003, 04:27 PM
Havasu Hangin':
"Does anyone know how many phonebooks it takes Charley to screw in a lightbulb?"
I dont have to screw light bulbs in anymore I pay people to do it for me :D

C-2
10-15-2003, 04:44 PM
Mrs. Sportin' Wood:
Those are just my views, don't bother telling me to get a new job, I'm working on that,
CUZ THE GROCERY INDUSTRY SUCKS!!!
I WANT WEEKENDS OFF!!!
MAYBE THEN I CAN GO TO THE RIVER ONCE IN A WHILE!
Angie :D :D :D :D
Isn't that the truth!

AzDon
10-15-2003, 05:07 PM
The majority opinion here seems to be: social safety net-BAD....minimum wage-BAD...civil rights-BAD.... Questioning the president's behavior-BAD...collective bargaining for a civilized pay package-Bad...price controls on essentials(like electricity)-BAD... Enforcing any kind of moral or ethical standards on America's businesses-BAD...protectionism-BAD
GET A CLUE PEOPLE!
The people that physically work the hardest in this country are the manual laborers that keep America's infrastructure operating. 80-90% of us are just getting by from paycheck-to-paycheck and it seems that every employer in America wants their workers (US!)to continually lower their wage needs so that their business can remain competitive. After all, why should Von's have to pay higher wages than Burger King? Why should the Fire dept., utilities, or construction companies pay more than McDonalds? Any of these employers needs only place an ad to get a flood of qualified applicants, so why shouldn't they base their hiring decision on how cheap a willing applicant will work? And what incentive do they have to pay one dime more?
The majority opinion on this board has no interest in explaining the fairness of having a hard-working class that can't afford the basic components of a civilized lifestyle on a legal wage (shelter,electricity,running water, transportation, food, and medical care)
The fanatic "Free Market" philosophy needs to have a muzzle put on it or we will eventually have no middle class, only a very small, mega-rich class, and a very large (perhaps 95%) class of very poor people who will no longer have the means to own or even live in houses or help support a consumer economy. This kind of society might work fine for Mexico, because they depend on foriegn consumer economies (such as ours) to buy their manufactured goods. If we cease to be a consumer economy, who will the world's businesses sell their products to?
I know there's going to be a flood of replies that attempt to confuse me with contrived facts and statistics and I'm not saying all American's living wages are going to be reduced to uncivilized levels overnight. It's already been chipping away for 20 years and there is still a sizeable chunk of America that remains in denial!
I'm simply saying that as money is taken away from America's workers, consumer spending is going to decline at the same rate....Have a nice day!

phebus
10-15-2003, 05:42 PM
Amen AzDon. Very well put.

Havasu Hangin'
10-15-2003, 05:57 PM
phebus:
Amen AzDon. Very well put. AZ"you all just living in my world-now leave"Don posted something?

AzDon
10-15-2003, 06:05 PM
Havasu Hangin':
AZ"you all just living in my world-now leave"Don posted something? ???

Dr. Eagle
10-15-2003, 06:32 PM
I have been looking at this topic for days and have resisted jumpin in...kinda resembles a minefield.
I see both sides in this one. I was in the Carpenters Union for almost 10 years and the Steelworkers for about 3. I have seen the good side of the unions as mostly a legacy of progress in the distant past, but of more recent times much corruption and political agenda.
I think the overriding thing Unions have to ask themselves as the economy reinvents itself is where can they be relevant.
A union is a business, just like General Motors. Like it or not it is true. It places itself between the bargaining unit and the employer and supposedly looks out for their interests. The union has its own interests too. Perpetuation of the craft or trade by what ever means necessary in some cases. Hence the reference to the political agenda.
I used to laugh at the voting recommendations I would get from the carpenters union. Their documents told you to vote Democratic because they favor bigger government and increased government spending which must be good for the carpenters union.
I never followed this philosiphy. Bigger government saps from the economy, it does not create.
Anyway before I get too long winded, I say it is the right of the workers at the stores to strike. I think it is a tactical (public relations)error for them to challenge people going to the store to pick up essentials, it creates a negative image. I agree that at one time in our economy unions had their place...will that continue to be the case...I think the jury is out.
As for the issue of the middle class in this country, Unrestrained Capitalism is evil, Communism is evil, so where do we find the middle?
In my opinion it is not as a socialistic utopia. But that is just my .02
[ October 15, 2003, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Eagle ]

Havasu Hangin'
10-15-2003, 07:32 PM
riodog:
HH, I'll bet my "little bird" is closer to the 'fire' than yours is! :D Probably.
Albertsons HQ is a ghosttown, as most of them are back in the stores. The DC's are having trouble recieving product, as the trucking companies don't want to cross any lines.
We'll see.

Charley
10-15-2003, 08:05 PM
AzDon:
The majority opinion here seems to be: social safety net-BAD....minimum wage-BAD...civil rights-BAD.... -BAD
GET A CLUE PEOPLE!
I have a clue and I put my ass on the line for 15+ years now to make something of myself.. I used my brain, guts ingenuity and sweat the whole way. Guess what though.. even today I own a business... it also resembles a house of cards..being in business is a gamble, it's HARD I guess I'm a gambler too! START YOUR OWN BUSINESS! EVERYONE HAS THAT RIGHT IN AMERICA...Just do it! Stop yer whining and sniveling about the abuse to the worker through the system! I'm sick and ****in tired of hearing how the classes are widening and business owners abuse their employees! Bullshit! when business is good in a year I pay 40 cents on the dollar in taxes... is that fair enough for ya? I try to be fair with my employees when it comes to wages,benefits,perqs, commisions,bonus,time off,advances, but not in this lifetime will I apologize for making more money than they do! pig_flyi

C-2
10-15-2003, 09:02 PM
Ralph's teamsters didn't walk off either...but some were sent home due to lack of work.

C-2
10-15-2003, 09:11 PM
Riodog and HH
So what are your predictions about how this mess will end up?

sandblasted
10-15-2003, 09:22 PM
I was a union member for over 9 years (IBEW Local 47) before I went into management. Now I supervise 33 union employees. I've seen this issue from both sides. I can tell you I resented the union when I was a member because I felt they went out of their way to protect the slugs and lazy ass employees.
I've also seen some supervisors and managers abuse their position and power over their employees. Hence the need for a union to protect the rights of the worker.
but I think the original question of this topic is "why strike?"
We all know the cost of health care is rising dramatically. The grocery stores are asking the employees to pay more for premiums and co-payments etc..Most companies are doing this. It's hard to feel sorry for a grocery clerk being asked to pay $25 per week for health care when I already pay that.
Compare that to a self employeed contractor who has to pay about $400-$500 per month for Blue cross and its a bargain!!
The real reason for the strike is for what a union typically refers to as "take aways". That is a negotiated benefit that the employee already enjoys that the company now wants to change or "take away"....I do not feel sorry for the grocery clerks but I understand their position...No one ever wants any part of their pay or benefits taken away..and thats the bottom line.

mbrown2
10-15-2003, 09:26 PM
Sandblasted, well said from both sides..

River Ric
10-15-2003, 09:43 PM
Anyone up for a history lesson? Well if not, to bad. Here it goes. Back in the late 20's there was this little thing called "The Great Depression". From most of the accounts that I read in college and from both my sets of grand-parents, life was kind of scarry for a while. 25% unemployment, soup lines and very little for many americans. This was also the great shift in socia-economic standards to date. More rich people became poor and more middle class became wealthy, just not right away. Many of our greatest philanthropists were created from this era. For the people that had the foresight(not luck) they invested in property that other people had to sell cheap and get out. Many years later, these people found themselves knee deep in realestate wealth.They did not cheat anyone. They had money when others did't. It's just how it is sometimes. There are always going to be rich people and poor people as well. Life is not FAIR!!!! I have taught this to both of my kids since they were little. I am so sick of people that whine. I am sorry that these people are being asked to ante up alittle for their health care. It's not the companies fault that health care has gone up 40 % in the last 2 years. If we weren't paying for all of the illegals health care then maybe things would be cheaper. We are trying to put a bandaid on a broken leg. It won't work. I remember a class I had in college and some of the kids really tried to beat up on the professor when they found out that he was worth almost a half a billion dollars. His grandfather started NCR. He loved teaching economics and said it was what he had always wanted to do.Even though he was not in the family biz, he still had inherited all of this money. Some one asked him why he worked? He said because he loved what he did. His grandfather once told him to be truly happy in life, find something you love to do, get really good at it and then find someone to pay you to do it.He said that when he finally earned his PHD. his grandfather sent him a letter that said "I am so proud that you listened to an old man and found out what you wanted not what he did." It's the same reason I do what I do. Not because it makes me alot of money,(don't get me wrong,I like money too),it makes me happy. Besides,the next time you need a job, go an ask a POOR person for one!!! idea idea idea idea idea

clownpuncher
10-15-2003, 09:55 PM
Just a quicky from me. I read all the posts and with the exception of just a couple I have to say I have something to agree with in each post. Unions can be a bad thing if the members are led the wrong direction by their "leaders". Their power has been and will continue to be abused.
Unions are also what gave us 40 hour work weeks, benefits, retirements, safer working conditions etc.
Many of you, I'm sure, are unaware that many Fire Departments are Union. Local 3601 here. We participate in polical action during election time and we do our best to educate the public as best we can. Even the FD has to take a hard stance come contract negotiation time. I've served on the union board for many years and had to go through many contract negotiations. It's totally amazing what the OTHER side would have us give up, do and otherwise hand our lives over to them.
We as fireman are forbidden by City policy to strike. I highly doubt that we would ever strike even if we could. When it comes to lives and property we as firemen take that to heart. On that note, I find it hard for me to critisize or otherwise question another union member standing up for their rights, future and overall integrity of their families lives.
That's it. Nothin like ridin thte fence huh? :D

Hotcrusader76
10-15-2003, 10:05 PM
clownpuncher:
That's it. Nothin like ridin thte fence huh? :D :D :D
[ October 15, 2003, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: Hotcrusader76 ]

Essex502
10-16-2003, 06:03 AM
clownpuncher:
Just a quicky from me. I read all the posts and with the exception of just a couple I have to say I have something to agree with in each post. Unions can be a bad thing if the members are led the wrong direction by their "leaders". Their power has been and will continue to be abused.
Unions are also what gave us 40 hour work weeks, benefits, retirements, safer working conditions etc.
Many of you, I'm sure, are unaware that many Fire Departments are Union. Local 3601 here. We participate in polical action during election time and we do our best to educate the public as best we can. Even the FD has to take a hard stance come contract negotiation time. I've served on the union board for many years and had to go through many contract negotiations. It's totally amazing what the OTHER side would have us give up, do and otherwise hand our lives over to them.
We as fireman are forbidden by City policy to strike. I highly doubt that we would ever strike even if we could. When it comes to lives and property we as firemen take that to heart. On that note, I find it hard for me to critisize or otherwise question another union member standing up for their rights, future and overall integrity of their families lives.
That's it. Nothin like ridin thte fence huh? :D Yes, the unions - in the past - negotiated the items you mentioned, i.e. 40 hr work week - but those are now in federal labor law and the unions benefits have diminished to being insignificant in my opinion (Former retail clerk, local 324). They benefit the mediocre worker and hold back the excellent worker.

Havasu Hangin'
10-16-2003, 06:05 AM
C-2:
So what are your predictions about how this mess will end up? I think most agree that the big three are weighing short-term losses vs. long-term gains. In other words, they know they are bleeding money from loss of sales, but it may pay out in the long run if they get the concessions.
IMHO, if everyone honored the lines, that (lack of sales) pain point would be expedited...and they would get back to the table rather quickly.
If people start crossing the lines, it could drag out for a long time...maybe even jeopardize the union's hold- like the controllers in the 80's. Who knows how much resolve each side has...
Keep in mind that they need to get the holiday shipments to the stores in the next few weeks...that could be the turning point.

Essex502
10-16-2003, 06:07 AM
River Ric:
Anyone up for a history lesson? Well if not, to bad. Here it goes. Back in the late 20's there was this little thing called "The Great Depression". From most of the accounts that I read in college and from both my sets of grand-parents, life was kind of scarry for a while. 25% unemployment, soup lines and very little for many americans. This was also the great shift in socia-economic standards to date. More rich people became poor and more middle class became wealthy, just not right away. Many of our greatest philanthropists were created from this era. For the people that had the foresight(not luck) they invested in property that other people had to sell cheap and get out. Many years later, these people found themselves knee deep in realestate wealth.They did not cheat anyone. They had money when others did't. It's just how it is sometimes. There are always going to be rich people and poor people as well. Life is not FAIR!!!! I have taught this to both of my kids since they were little. I am so sick of people that whine. I am sorry that these people are being asked to ante up alittle for their health care. It's not the companies fault that health care has gone up 40 % in the last 2 years. If we weren't paying for all of the illegals health care then maybe things would be cheaper. We are trying to put a bandaid on a broken leg. It won't work. I remember a class I had in college and some of the kids really tried to beat up on the professor when they found out that he was worth almost a half a billion dollars. His grandfather started NCR. He loved teaching economics and said it was what he had always wanted to do.Even though he was not in the family biz, he still had inherited all of this money. Some one asked him why he worked? He said because he loved what he did. His grandfather once told him to be truly happy in life, find something you love to do, get really good at it and then find someone to pay you to do it.He said that when he finally earned his PHD. his grandfather sent him a letter that said "I am so proud that you listened to an old man and found out what you wanted not what he did." It's the same reason I do what I do. Not because it makes me alot of money,(don't get me wrong,I like money too),it makes me happy. Besides,the next time you need a job, go an ask a POOR person for one!!! idea idea idea idea idea River Ric...
You need to get your facts accurate if you're gonna' provide a history lessen...
The Great Depression began in 1929 and lasted until 1941 (generally held end date). Not the late twenties. Generally accepted as beginning with the stock market crash of 1929 though many factors led up to it.

Havasu Hangin'
10-16-2003, 06:23 AM
Well...here's what I've heard about the Teamsters (warehouses).
The Teamsters cannot strike, since they have a contract. However, as part of thier contract, they have the right to honor a picket line.
If (when) the Retail Clerks set up a picket line at the DC's, the Teamsters will probabaly not cross it.
Selective lines were set up, but the clerks are yet to fully picket the DC's. They are probably holding that card in reserve (negotiated with the Teamsters)...

Dave C
10-16-2003, 07:52 AM
HH,
Actually you CAN"T have 2 Billion because you have to share with the other equity holders and pay interest on your leverage, etc. etc. (gotta spread in around you know)
I understand the part about volume. razor thin margin times extremely large volume equals large profit.
That's OK for smaller or medium size businesses with closely held ownership, that uses leverage instead of equity.
But when you divide that "so-called" large profit by millions of shares outstanding the EPS gets VERY VERY SMALL.(get it wink )
So I as a share holder look at my small EPS thats about to get smaller and decide to dump my shares.
Unless you can get positive EPS growth then you cannot raise equity.
I dunno what the labor overhead as a percent of gross margin. I would presume it is very high? (because WTF else is there besides rent?) Maybe you can help us?
DaveC<--- likes talking in 3rd person cuz it keeps people a wondering...
[ October 16, 2003, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: Dave C ]

Dave C
10-16-2003, 08:02 AM
HH,
so you can't raise equity $'s. So you float some paper, get yourself leveraged, interest rates are low, life is good.
But when interest rates go up, you have to rollover your paper and you cannot lower your overhead.... your screwed!
Low margin businesses fear "fixed overhead" Interest rates, ALL labor costs are fixed overhead. Margins are variable because the COGS varies.
So if you gross margin goes down, fixed overhead remains the same, your net margin goes down.
GET IT YET??? wink
[ October 16, 2003, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: Dave C ]

Havasu Hangin'
10-16-2003, 08:27 AM
Dave C:
HH,
...because you have to share with the other equity holders...What if you are a private company like Staters?

Dr. Eagle
10-16-2003, 08:32 AM
riodog:
This subject sucks! cry Let's talk about where is everyone gonna be Sat afternoon for op6c? Across from the casino. God, the grocery biz is depressing-26 years since I said ****it and walked out the door. I think I'm having 'flashbacks'! I think I'll bring a few playtoys an go out in the desert and "shoot something just to watch it die"! 6:00 am and I've already been driven to need a drink! Maybe I'll just shoot the 'puter instead! Say goodnite Rio.
Rio>starting to sound like Hoss>dog I second the motion...this subject bites!

1stepcloser
10-16-2003, 09:01 AM
Havasu Hangin':
What if you are a private company like Staters? wink
[ October 16, 2003, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: 1stepcloser ]

Dave C
10-16-2003, 09:13 AM
Private=god bless America. They still have equity holders just not that many. How big are they? Privates don't have much paid in capital (equity) so they don't have to worry too much about a good EPS #. BUT they are going to have a hard time borrowing or obtaining large amounts of capital. HOw are they going to growth without additional paid-in capital? Without growth, how are they going to increase volume? Large volume is the name of the game here, so without large volume where is the profit?????
We have many small grocery chains up here with several stores. The owners make OK money but their overhead is too damn high.
Plus how do you expand at a fast pace without investors? If your public, you better "show me the money"
BTW several of our clients are small grocery store owners. couple of locations at best. They don't make "great" money in comparison to other businesses because of their overhead.
I think the point that we are trying to make is that fixed overhead that is too high contributes to the lower margin, in comparison. YOu seem to have a lot of good "insider" information that we are not privy too. its fascinating to me.
I looked into this one time, but the investors saw the low margins and said “NO F-ing way.”
The one advantage that I saw was the fast cash flow (all customers pay cash today :D ). Is it true that the “fast” cash flow allows them to obtain better credit terms from their suppliers?
[ October 16, 2003, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: Dave C ]

Havasu Hangin'
10-16-2003, 10:06 AM
Dave C:
They still have equity holders just not that many. How big are they?Jack Brown, a couple other "buddies", and a new "buddy" (BofA- I think he bought out his partner a couple years ago). Not sure about revenue...but he operates 155 stores.
They own "the Heartland", although they ventured into San Diego and Orange County over the past couple years. Rumor has it he owns most of the property...most chains lease. There was a very positive article in the business section a few weeks ago...I'll see if I can dig it up.
The other chains will actually price off his stores- go check prices at a Ralphs in OC, then check the same prices in a Ralphs by a Staters- it's a pretty big difference.
Dave C:
The one advantage that I saw was the fast cash flow (all customers pay cash today :D ). Is it true that the “fast” cash flow allows them to obtain better credit terms from their suppliers? I give all chains the same cash terms- 2% 10 net 30 (it will vary by vendor). If they are good at managing inventory, they never have to take ownership of high-velocity items- it's gone before they pay (but won't happen on all items). Credit lines are extended based on the usual criteria.
Wal-Mart has VMI, or Vendor Managed Inventory, so vendors can write PO's. Kroger has that capability, as well.
In Nor Cal, I'd hate to venture what real estate will cost (I used to live in Pleasanton). Rumor has it that Wal Mart will not dig into the expensive real estate, so urban stores may not be affected.
Did you hear the one about the grocery salesman?
He was losing $3/case on each sale, but he was gonna make it up in volume.
HH <-------- thinks he's funny, and wonders why he's talking to himself

Dave C
10-16-2003, 10:53 AM
This brown guy sounds like he has it all wired! Own instead of lease! Sounds like he is a leader not a follower. I wonder how may partners he has? Probably a few. At any rate, I don't think he is an example rather an "exception" that they write textbooks about.
Pleasanton, thats low rent district.
I think prime retail space in this area may go for $4-6 a foot but I might be low. I heard one restaurant in Burlingame (went out of business) was paying $30,000 a month for about 5000 sq ft. Around the corner is a safeway.
My old man works for Sysco. He gives me all the stats on the food business. If I had a $1 for everytime he told me about the recession proof food business...."everyone has got to eat" he says.

Over 18
10-16-2003, 10:58 AM
River Ric:
Anyone up for a history lesson? Well if not, to bad. Here it goes. Back in the late 20's there was this little thing called "The Great Depression".edit
just noticed that summerlove took care of it for me! :D :D :D
[ October 16, 2003, 12:01 PM: Message edited by: Over 18 ]

Seadog
10-16-2003, 11:20 AM
FYI, everyone gives FDR and his social programs the credit for ending the Great Depression. Research shows that if it had not been for FDR's programs, the great depression would have ended years earlier.
I just got a call yesterday from an ex-employee who wants to use me for reference. He is going to work stocking shelves at one of the CA grocery stores for $19.25/hr. My skilled technicians only get $10-12/hr. Most teachers here do not get that much.

Dave C
10-16-2003, 11:49 AM
HH... wait a minute here. This brown guy has it all figured out.
1) he has a plan for controling fixed overhead 2) he has a plan for getting capital to expand 3) he has a growth plan taking advantage of ownership of property.
I say that with 2% margin, if you don't control fixed overhead, you will be putting your bankruptcy attorney's kids through college.
What are major fixed overhead, rent & labor.
If you buy a store instead of renting it, your overhead for rent stays the same rather than goes up.
Revenues go up slightly over time due to inflation(all other things being equal). So a location's margin will go up over time because the revenues goes up but the mortgage payment stays the same (instead of the rental payments following suit) You can use the additional margin as R/E to build new stores.
If you go to a bank and ask for a big unsecured business line of credit, you will be escorted out by the guards. If you ask for a loan secured by property then you are the customer of the month. So he doesn't have beg for money (equity) much to start up new operations because he "buys" property rather than rents.
THEREFORE if a portion of his fixed overhead is under control all he has to worry about is keeping his labor cost down. And his margins will be higher than his competitors if he doesn't grow too fast.
Wow, this guy is a pimp.
BTW, you want to see something interesting, look up Draegers Markets in San Mateo. The whole store has specialty foods and costs a fortune to shop. (e.g. 25 kinds of mushrooms, own wine cellar, fancy this and that, etc.)
DaveC<--- should be in corporate finance but can't get away from those voices in his head!
[ October 16, 2003, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: Dave C ]

Dave C
10-16-2003, 11:59 AM
BTW, world war II ending the depression, not anyone's policies. Because we began building alot of stuff for war.....
(its that evil trickle down economics, rearing its ugly head again wink

Dave C
10-16-2003, 12:35 PM
I think we got off the point a bit by arguing.
I think that a lot of people don’t realize that profit is often reinvested into a company so the company will grow instead of being paid to the owner(s). I cannot emphasize this point this enough.
There is a saying in business, your either growing or your dying. The ultimate goal of business is to turn a profit but without growth, your dead.
So if you have less than a 2% margin then you don’t have a lot to reinvest and pay dividends. Which is OK because hopefully the entire 2% is reinvested and the company grows and the value goes up.
Why is this important to the employee? If the company grows that leads to new jobs, etc. Increase overhead leads to lower margins and less growth. (I know employees are at least due cost of living increases)
How big a margin is 2%. You want to see a grown man cry? Tell a stock analyst that his clients holdings include a company with a 2% margin, high fixed overhead and union labor.
Well I hope the unions and companies can work this out so everyone can get back to work.

Rexone
10-18-2003, 05:25 PM
Link to copy of offer made by stores (http://www.ufcw1179.org/kdupdates/offer.pdf)
Basically what the strike is about

mickeyfinn
10-18-2003, 06:31 PM
GOOD LORD!!!!!!!!!!
Check out the salaries. Over 11.00/hr for an entry level clerk???....Someone to stock shelves? Judging from some of the changes people were bitching because they had to put plastic bags on shelves?....If reading that doesn't convince people that unions are no longer functioning to do anything but drive up the cost of goods and services by demanding ridiculous salaries for strictly defined job functions then they just don't want to be confused with the facts. Our economy is royally screwed if this is what it is all about. What happened to people working "for the company" If you are a cashier and the store is slow then you send some folks home and someone has to sweep and mop....not in this union..You can only mop if your job description allows for it. I hope that sometime in the futures the employees wise up and realize what they are doing to their own future before they are out of work because the company couldn't afford to compete...

Rexone
10-19-2003, 01:43 AM
I'm gonna quit my job and go be a meat cutter and work only on Sundays lol. Could just kickit the rest the week.
Yeah I don't get it with a quick read through. The benefits deal, they're asking them to pay $5 a week individual, and $15 family. That ain't shit. Folks need to realize everything in life ain't free (nor is it forever guaranteed to remain unchanged or better). Damn entitlement mentality again. They owe me dis, they owe me dat. And I agree, ain't none a those folks gonna be pickin up no mop if it's not on paper they need to. Bogus crap IMO.

Rexone
10-19-2003, 01:44 AM
and... no one wins by striking. Everyone loses and the longer it drags on the worse they lose.

v-drive
10-19-2003, 07:05 AM
I don't think they should be concerned with the benifit increase as that is (like everyone else has said)is going up for everyone and some employers will not offer it in the future.They should worry about the new hires because that is an opening for them to lose there jobs. Look at the meat cutters alone. $30.00 down to around $12.00 That isn't fair. I'm not union ,don't want to be union and I know a little about running a business. Why would you keep an employee making making that much when you could have one making less than half. That can't happen? bull, it happens every day and you know it. I worked union once when I was 19 and it only lasted a week.I pissed the forman off so he fired me. The union steward fought and argued to save me and when I told him that if I was the forman I would have kicked my young ass out to he told me it was his job to negotiate. When I went to personnel to sign out the forman came in and said that he respected what I had done and would I like another chance. I just said no thankyou and left. Our store is Albertsons and is only 5 minutes from our home and today when we do our shopping it will be at Stater Bros. in Aliso Viejo.
:cool: V-drive
[ October 19, 2003, 08:08 AM: Message edited by: v-drive ]

Rexone
10-20-2003, 03:47 AM
Originally posted by v-drive
Look at the meat cutters alone. $30.00 down to around $12.00 That isn't fair.
I think if you check again you've compared the "Sunday overtime rate" to the normal starting everyday rate. Not an apple to an apple. :)