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jlnorthrup122
08-27-2003, 05:57 PM
On this cat?
I don't know why I am asking construction has already begun! It will be on the water next summer!!!!! :) :cool:
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/503/61024_cat_velume_clean_flame_design_04-med.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/503/61024_cat_velume_clean_04-med.jpg
Thanks :cool:

sidewound
08-27-2003, 07:18 PM
I'm back again,
Iowa people have tenacity.
Let's see some pics.
The first thing I would change is the paper to a pic so we can see what's goin on!
Peace Man :cool:
CESAR

topless
08-27-2003, 07:21 PM
Can't tellbythe picture but how big ist he stabin cabin? :confused:

jlnorthrup122
08-27-2003, 07:29 PM
weel there is no stabin cabin but I plan on incorporating a a canopy into the engine hatch in a maner as to pull out from the bottom of the hatch and cover the fuselodge area! Going to wait till I am standing in the cockpit and then start inovating!! I will keep you in mind Topless when I get to that part! You'll have to cresten her for me Topless. :cool: I have aready named her and she is Procrastinations just has a ring to it don't it!!
Hey sidewound I do have pics up on the sandbar post "new aluminum cat lines" post the post has not been updated in a month but thats about how far as I have gotten though! :cool:

jlnorthrup122
08-27-2003, 07:32 PM
Oh She is 25' long with a 1' swim platform for an overall of 26' of material!

Froggystyle
08-27-2003, 08:41 PM
I want to be careful not to hurt any feelings, but if we are accepting constructive critcism...
I think the biggest problem with the drawings shown (and most of the custom boat market in general) is the graphics chosen (green flames over polished aluminum from what I remember) sound cool, but if you don't add some dynamic movement to them, i.e. have them flow backwards a little, the only time they will visually work is if the boat is standing still. In this case, it will look like your boat was overgrown by mutant algae.
I would tilt the flames backwards some, and keep a solid theme for the tilt. Try to envision the movement the boat would be doing through the graphics, and work from there.
My. 02. of course. In the eye and all...

jlnorthrup122
08-27-2003, 08:52 PM
Taken well froggy. How you doin today? I am considering other paint scheames at this point it could change again never know! I need to find a setup that will alow me to control the engine the sterio the gps a dpth finder an onstar navigational system and the security system all in one setup that has a touch comand screen that could be mounted near the cluster soes I could take care of all that with one moniter to keep the cluster to a minimum! I also need to start learning how to form sheets of aluminum for my next project (the current design was desing considering not only handling calculations but also to my sheet metal forming capabilities! Gota go later!

DickDanger
08-27-2003, 08:56 PM
Looks like you are going to have a nice ride there when you are done. Heres a question that I am wondering though: why is it that almost ALL of the paint schemes that you see are always white, with some kind of color graphic design over the top, whether it be flames, tribal, etc. Whatever happened to solidly painted boats???? Just curious -DD Out

Mandelon
08-27-2003, 09:04 PM
Green?

superdave013
08-27-2003, 09:21 PM
where is the v drive location?? :confused:
Those are flames? Looks like kelp to me. lol
J/K, it looks pretty cool from what I can tell. So are you going to post some progress pics along the way?

jlnorthrup122
08-28-2003, 06:04 PM
originally posted by Superdave013:
it looks pretty cool from what I can tell. So are you going to post some progress pics along the way?
Yes I have been posting the slow progress on the sandbar topic "new aluminum cat lines"
but here are some pics for Yah:
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/610truss_cluster_01-med.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/610truss_cluster_03-med.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/610truss_cluster_04-med.jpg
http://www.***boat.com/image_center/data/500/610Truss_6_05-med.jpg

jlnorthrup122
08-28-2003, 06:27 PM
Also Green was the primary hull color and the flames where to be exposed high mirror finnish throug layers of clearcoat! :cool:

BILLY.B
08-28-2003, 06:40 PM
superdave013:
where is the v drive location?? :confused:
Those are flames? Looks like kelp to me. lol
I'd change the kelp to grass and go after Miracle Grow for a sponsor :D :D Nice looking lines though. Why not try and do some graphics that make the lines of the boat stand out instead of the typical FOLLOW the LEADER flame deal :confused:
[ August 28, 2003, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: BILLY.B ]

jlnorthrup122
08-28-2003, 06:52 PM
originally posted by Billy B:
I'd change the kelp to grass and go after Miracle Grow for a sponsor Nice looking lines though. Why not try and do some graphics that make the lines of the boat stand out instead of the typical FOLLOW the LEADER flame deal I have droped the flame dealio and am contemplating some oldschool graphics! maybe from the old ww2 planes like some jaws and such not sure I probly wont paint it till the after the first season of running it incase I need to put in a center pod or something of handling nature! I do know I would like to have some high mirror finnish bingen through some clear coat! :cool: but I do have to take into consideration of the sun and the effects on other boaters from the glare! frown

HighRoller
08-28-2003, 07:03 PM
My biggest thing is to lay the windshield/canopy back some more.Now,as far as the aluminum I'm interested in your fab/welding techniques.I would assume you're going to MIG it unless you have 20 years and a TIG welder.Are you going to pressure test the running edges to prevent pinholes and stress leaks?I'm most curious about how you plan to smooth the welds to get a smooth running surface without cutting into the weldment.Since the running edges won't be seamless like glass,you might look into a low friction epoxy coating or even plastic keel protectors on the lower sponson edges.How are you going to corrosion protect the hull? We all know aluminum doesn't rust but it does corrode,especially in the alkiline water of the Colorado.And since welding will anneal the metal how do you plan to heat treat a large piece of metal.Oh,and what grade are you using?Did I ask enough yet?I'm not as sharp as Froggy(nuclear certified)Style,but I'm curious nonetheless.

jlnorthrup122
08-28-2003, 07:24 PM
originally posted by High Roller:
My biggest thing is to lay the windshield/canopy back some more.Now,as far as the aluminum I'm interested in your fab/welding techniques.I would assume you're going to MIG it unless you have 20 years and a TIG welder.Are you going to pressure test the running edges to prevent pinholes and stress leaks?I'm most curious about how you plan to smooth the welds to get a smooth running surface without cutting into the weldment.Since the running edges won't be seamless like glass,you might look into a low friction epoxy coating or even plastic keel protectors on the lower sponson edges.How are you going to corrosion protect the hull? We all know aluminum doesn't rust but it does corrode,especially in the alkiline water of the Colorado.And since welding will anneal the metal how do you plan to heat treat a large piece of metal.Oh,and what grade are you using?Did I ask enough yet?I'm not as sharp as Froggy(nuclear certified)Style,but I'm curious nonetheless.
Now,as far as the aluminum I'm interested in your fab/welding techniques.I would assume you're going to MIG it unless you have 20 years and a TIG welder Well I am mig welding turn the gas up to 30psi and perosity (pinholes air) is non existant with the right rythum.
Are you going to pressure test the running edges to prevent pinholes and stress leaks?I'm most curious about how you plan to smooth the welds to get a smooth running surface without cutting into the weldment.Since the running edges won't be seamless like glass,you might look into a low friction epoxy coating or even plastic keel protectors on the lower sponson edges I plan on running a backer on these seams of 1" solid round bar aslo welding iside and out some of the weldment will be gound out to take smooth form I have a technique for this from previouse emplyment. Hoss was telling me of a micro balloon filler thatis used on aircrafts going to look into this if needed!
How are you going to corrosion protect the hull? We all know aluminum doesn't rust but it does corrode,especially in the alkiline water of the Colorado.And since welding will anneal the metal how do you plan to heat treat a large piece of metal.Oh,and what grade are you using? well I plan on using a marine grade version of aluminum paint and 4 layers of clear in that aspect. we do have an etching coumpound that is used in the poedercoating proscess as well! heat treat I see no need for it due to running 5052 grade aluminum I feel to bring up the temper would be asking for cracks and tears. as for the welds anealing well with a bit of comon sence and taking short passes we can minimise this affect.
I am using 5052 aluminum!
All very good questions High roller! :) You would move the wind sreen back even farther? How bout adding a foot of length in front of it? (the windscreen is the same dimentions as the following truss' to the first step.)
Thanks High roller I will try to post an aluminum characteristics chart!

jlnorthrup122
08-28-2003, 07:29 PM
Here is a little bit of .02 on aluminum fabricating:
Common Mistakes Made in the Design of Aluminum Weldments
By Frank G. Armao, Senior Application Engineer, The Lincoln Electric Company, Cleveland, Ohio
Figure 1Background
As a rule, designers of metallic structures have learned to design using steel. When designing with aluminum, however, the engineer must not base the design on prior experiences with steel or any other material. The alloy selection, proper joint design and the choice of an optimal welding process may all be a function of the base material. While aluminum obviously obeys the same laws of mechanics as all other materials, it must be approached differently than steel when welded. Aluminum structures are not necessarily more difficult to design or weld than steel structures, they are just different.
Don’t Just Choose the Strongest Alloy
Aluminum is often chosen as a structural material for applications in which weight savings are important. Very often, the designer will choose the very strongest alloy available. This is a poor design practice for several reasons. First, the critical design limitation for many structures often is deflection, not strength. In such cases, the modulus of elasticity, not the tensile properties, will govern the design. The modulus of most aluminum alloys, weak and strong alike, is approximately the same (one-third the modulus of elasticity of steel), so no benefit accrues from using the strongest alloy. Second, and most importantly, many of the strongest aluminum alloys are not weldable using conventional techniques.
When we speak about aluminum alloys being "weldable" or "non-weldable," we are usually referring to the alloy’s ability to be welded without hot cracking. Alloys that are extremely susceptible to hot cracking are not considered appropriate for structural (load-carrying) applications, and are generally put in the non-weldable category. Hot cracking in aluminum alloys is primarily due to the chemistry of the alloy and the weld bead. For virtually every alloying addition, the cracking sensitivity varies as alloy content increases as shown in Figure 1. Weldable alloys have a composition that falls either well above or well below the maximum cracking sensitivity. In some cases, such as that of 6061, which is very crack-sensitive if welded without filler material, the weld cracking sensitivity can be reduced to acceptable levels with the addition of a high silicon or high magnesium filler metal. The additional silicon or magnesium pushes the solidifying weld metal below the cracking sensitivity level. In other alloys, such as 7075, it is not possible to design a weld filler alloy that results in a crack-resistant chemistry. These are considered to be non-weldable.
Alloys are broken into two groups: heat-treatable alloys and non-heat-treatable alloys. A relative assessment of weldability is also given for each of these.
The non-heat-treatable alloys are composed of the 1XXX, 3XXX, 4XXX, and 5XXX series. It is not possible to strengthen these alloys by heat treatment. They can only be strengthened by cold working (also called strain hardening). The 1XXX alloys, such as 1100, 1188, or 1350, are essentially pure aluminum (99+% purity). They are relatively soft and weak, with good corrosion resistance, and are usually used where high electrical conductivity is required, such as for bus bars or as electrical conductors. They are also used in certain applications that require a high degree of resistance to corrosion. All of these alloys are readily weldable.
The 3XXX series of alloys have various levels of manganese (Mn) added to strengthen them and improve their response to cold work. They are of moderate strength, have good corrosion resistance, and are readily weldable. They are used for air conditioning and refrigeration systems, non-structural building trim, and other applications.
The 4XXX series of alloys have silicon (Si) added as an alloying element to reduce the melting point and increase their fluidity in the molten state. These alloys are used for welding and brazing filler materials and for sand and die castings. They are the least crack-sensitive of all the aluminum alloys.
The 5XXX series of alloys have magnesium (Mg) added in order to increase their strength and ability to work-harden. They are generally very corrosion resistant and have the highest strengths of any of the non-heat-treatable alloys. Increasing magnesium content in these alloys results in increasing strength levels. These alloys are commonly available in the form of sheet, plate and strip, and are the most common structural aluminum alloys. They are generally not available as extruded sections, because they are expensive to extrude. They are readily weldable, in most cases, with or without filler metal. However, there is an Al-Mg cracking peak at approximately 2.5% Mg, so care must be used in welding alloys such as 5052. It should not be welded autogenously (i.e., without adding filler metal). Weld filler metal with a high Mg content, such as 5356, should be used to reduce the crack sensitivity.
The heat-treatable alloys are contained in the 2XXX, 6XXX, and 7XXX alloy families. The 2XXX family of alloys are high strength Al-Cu alloys used mainly for aerospace applications. In some environments, they can exhibit poor corrosion resistance. In general, most alloys in this series are considered non-weldable. A prime example of a non-weldable alloy in this series, which is attractive to designers because of its high strength, is alloy 2024. This alloy is commonly used in airframes, where it is almost always riveted. It is extremely crack-sensitive and almost impossible to weld successfully using standard techniques.
Only two common structural alloys in the 2XXX series are weldable: 2219 and 2519. Alloy 2219 is very easily weldable and has been extensively welded in fabricating the external tanks for the U.S. space shuttle. This alloy gets its good weldability because of its higher copper content, approximately 6%. A closely related alloy, which is also very weldable, is 2519. It was developed for fabrication of armored vehicles. Although there are detailed exceptions to this rule, the designer should probably consider all other alloys in the 2XXX series to be non-weldable.
The 6XXX series of alloys are the alloys probably most often encountered in structural work. They are relatively strong (although not as strong as the 2XXX or 7XXX series) and have good corrosion resistance. They are most often supplied as extrusions. In fact, if the designer specifies an extrusion, it will almost certainly be supplied as a 6XXX alloy. 6XXX alloys may also be supplied as sheet, plate and bar, and are the most common heat treatable structural alloys. Although all alloys in this series tend to be crack-sensitive, they are all considered weldable and are, in fact, welded every day. However, the correct weld filler metal must be used to eliminate cracking. Additionally, these alloys will usually crack if they are welded either without, or with insufficient, filler metal additions.
The 7XXX alloys are the ones that usually trip designers up. They are the very high strength Al-Zn or Al-Zn-Mg-Cu alloys that are often used in aerospace fabrication, and are supplied in the form of sheet, plate, forgings, and bar, as well as extrusions. With the few exceptions noted below, the designer should assume that the 7XXX alloys are non-weldable. The most common of these alloys is 7075, which should never be welded for structural applications. In addition, these alloys often suffer from poor corrosion performance in many environments.
A few of the 7XXX series defy the general rule and are weldable. These are alloys 7003 and 7005, which are often seen as extrusions, and 7039, which is most often seen as sheet or plate. Some common uses of these alloys today are bicycle frames and baseball bats, both of which are welded. These alloys are easily welded and can sometimes offer strength advantages in the as-welded condition over the 6XXX and 5XXX alloys.
There is one other exception to the general rule that 2XXX and 7XXX alloys are unweldable. There are a number of thick cast and/or wrought plate alloys designed as mold plate material for the injection molding industry. These alloys, which include Alca Plus, Alca Max, and QC-7, are all very close in chemistry to 7075 or 2618. The designer should absolutely avoid structural welds on these alloys. However, welding is often performed on these alloys to correct machining mistakes, die erosion, etc. This is acceptable because there are only low stresses on such welds and, in fact, the weld is often in compression.
This discussion has tried to make a few points:
First, when designing a structure of any kind, don’t scroll through the nearest list of aluminum alloys and pick the strongest.
Realize that some alloys, often the stronger ones, are non-weldable. Make sure the selected alloy is readily weldable.
Recognize that some alloys or alloy families are more suitable for some applications than others.
One more caveat: when welding aluminum, the designer must not assume that the properties of the starting material and the properties of the weld are equivalent.
Why Isn’t the Weld as Strong as the Original Base Metal?
A designer of steel structures generally assumes that a weld is as strong as the parent material, and the welding engineer who is responsible for fabricating the structure expects to make a weld which is as strong as the steel being used. It would be tempting to assume that the situation is the same when designing and fabricating aluminum structures, but it isn’t. In most cases, a weld in an aluminum alloy is weaker, often to a significant degree, than the alloy being welded.
Non-Heat-Treatable Alloys
Figure 2Alloys in this category (i.e., 1XXX, 3XXX, 4XXX, and 5XXX families) are produced by a cold working process: rolling, drawing, etc. After the cold working process, the alloy is given the designation of an F temper (as-fabricated). Alloys are then often given a subsequent annealing heat treatment, after which they are classified as an O temper (annealed). Many alloys are sold in this condition. Thus the correct designation for a plate of 5083 which was annealed after rolling is 5083 - O. One of the attractive properties of these alloys is that they can be significantly increased in strength if they are cold worked after annealing. Figure 2 shows what happens to several alloys with varying amounts of cold work. For example, alloy 5086 rises in yield strength from approximately 18 ksi (125 MPa) to 40 ksi (275 MPa) and is now said to be strain-hardened. A complete designation for this alloy would be 5056-H36. The H temper designation can be somewhat complicated, since it is used to designate a number of processing variables. However, the last digit designates the level of cold working in the alloy, with 9 denoting the highest.
Figure 3A common mistake in designing welded structures using non-heat-treatable alloys is to look down a list of properties, disregard the O temper material, and choose an alloy of the highest temper because it is significantly stronger. This would seem to make sense, but it often doesn’t, because the heat of welding acts as a local annealing operation, significantly weakening the heat affected zone (HAZ) of the weld. If one plots the yield or tensile stress versus distance from the weld, a curve such as that seen in Figure 3 is obtained. If the design is based on the strain hardened properties, the allowable design stress will usually be above the actual yield point of the HAZ. Although it may seem counter-intuitive, the fact is this: No matter what temper one starts with, the properties in the HAZ will be those of the O temper annealed material due to the welding operation. Therefore, the design must be based on the annealed properties, not on the strain-hardened properties. Because of this, it usually doesn’t make sense to buy the more expensive strain hardened tempers for welded fabrications. One should design with and specify the alloy in the O temper and up-gauge as necessary.
An obvious question is whether anything can be done to restore material properties after welding a strain-hardened material. Unfortunately, the answer is almost always no. The only way to harden these materials is through mechanical deformation, and this is almost never practical for welded structures.
Heat-Treatable Alloys
Figure 4The situation is somewhat different when welding the heat-treatable alloys. Alloys are heat-treated by initially heating the material to approximately 1000°F (540°C), holding the temperature for a short time, and then quenching it in water. This operation is intended to dissolve all the alloying additions in solution and hold them there at room temperature. Alloys in this condition are said to be in the T4 temper and have significantly higher strengths than the same alloy in the O temper. Depending on the alloy, "natural aging" at room temperature can lead to further strength increases over time. This takes place over a matter of days or, at most, a few weeks. After that, the properties will remain stable over decades. If one buys T4 material, it is stable and the properties will not change over the course of a lifetime.
However, most alloys are given an additional heat treatment to obtain the highest mechanical properties. This heat treatment consists of holding the material at approximately 400°F (205°C) for a few hours. During this time, the alloying additions that were dissolved in the prior heat treatment precipitate in a controlled manner, which strengthens the alloy. Material in this condition is designated as T6 (artificially aged) temper, the most common heat-treated alloy temper.
Again, the complete temper designation system is actually much more complex than this, but understanding the T4 and T6 tempers will help to overcome some of the most common mistakes made when designing aluminum weldments. It is important to note that heat treatable alloys can also be strain-hardened after heat treatment, and this can further complicate the temper designation.
Remember that the aging treatment is performed at approximately 400°F (205°C). Any arc welding process gets the HAZ much hotter than this. Therefore, welding constitutes an additional heat treatment for the HAZ. Some alloys experience an additional solution heat treatment, while other alloys become overaged in the HAZ. This results in degradation of material properties, especially if the as-welded properties are compared to T6 properties. For example, the minimum specified tensile strength in ASTM B209 for 6061 - T6 is 40 ksi (275 MPa). Most fabrication codes require a minimum as-welded tensile strength of 24 ksi (165 MPa), which is a significant degradation.
As when designing for the non-heat-treatable alloys, the designer must not use the parent material properties in design. Realistic as-welded properties must be used. It is difficult to generalize what these properties are. They change from alloy to alloy and depend strongly on the starting temper of the alloy. Most design codes contain as-welded properties for aluminum alloys and these should be used.
With heat-treatable alloys, however, there are some ways to recover some of the material properties of the parent. Figure 4 shows a plot of tensile stress versus distance from the weld for 6061, revealing curves for both T4 and T6 material in both the as-welded (AW) and post-weld-aged (PWA) conditions. The PWA condition represents a weld that is subsequently aged for one hour at approximately 400°F (205°C). Post weld aging improves the mechanical properties for both T4 and T6 starting materials. In fact, often times it is better to weld in the T4 condition and post weld age after the welding process.
There is one final alternative to discuss. If after welding, the structure is given a complete heat treatment (i.e., solution treat at 1000°F [540°C], quench, age at 400°F [205°C]), all of the material properties (even in the weld) will be recovered and T6 properties will be obtained. This practice is frequently followed on small structures such as bicycle frames, but it is impractical for larger structures. Furthermore, the quenching usually causes enough distortion of the structure that a straightening operation is necessary before aging.
Conclusions
In the design of welded aluminum structures, too often the differences between steel and aluminum are not taken into account. To recap, common mistakes include:
Not all aluminum alloys are weldable. In general, the least weldable alloys are also the strongest alloys.
The weld will rarely be as strong as the parent material.
The HAZ will have O temper annealed properties for non-heat-treatable alloys regardless of the initial material temper.
For the heat treatable alloys, the as-welded properties will be significantly lower than the properties of the T6 alloy temper.
Post-weld heat treatment can help to restore the mechanical properties of welds in heat treatable alloys.
5005
Similar characteristics to 3003 but with finer grain structure. Good finishing characteristics.
Same uses as 3003. Used where excessive finishing costs are encountered in the use of 3003 alloys due to surface roughness upon drawing.
5052
Very good corrosion resistance, good workability, weldability and strength. Tensile range 31-44Kpsi
Used for aircraft fuel tanks, storm shutters, refrigerator liners, utensils, electronic mounting plates and panels, fan blades.
5083
High strength, high resistance to corrosion, suitable for welding. Tensile 40-59Kpsi.
Welded structures (high strength), pressure vessels, storage tanks, truck and marine applications, armor plate.
5086
Similar to 5083, High strength, high resistance to corrosion, good weldability. Tensile 40-54Kpsi.
Medium strength welded structures.
5456
High strength, high resistance to corrosion very suitable for welding. Tensile 46-38 Kpsi
High strength welded structures, pressure vessels, storage tanks, truck and marine applications, armor plate.
6061
99% pure aluminum. Excellent forming qualities weldability, electrical conductivity and resistance in corrosion.
Chemical equipment, boats, truck & bus bodies, scaffolding transmission towers, marine equipment, fire ladders. 6061T6 is used for tankage, tank fittings and general structural and high pressure applications.
[ August 28, 2003, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: jlnorthrup122 ]

HighRoller
08-28-2003, 07:48 PM
Damn that was all I ever wanted to know about aluminum!!What I meant about the windshield was to lay the angle back and yes if you added a foot in front it might help.As far as the aluminum,have you compared numbers as far as torsional and tension strength between glass and AL?Glass is much more rigid but less forgiving.I'd think with large sections of AL being used you'd want 6061 or 7075 but I guess it depends on the thickness.Once you pass the elastic barrier with AL you have failure,not just deformation like steel.AL is not"hard"so cracking shouldn't be a problem.Stretching might.I'd build a measurement jig once the hull is done so you can track any deformation.Welding both sides is a good idea.Weld inside first for penetration then do cover pass outside that you can radius for effect.Damn,I knew that metallurgy and welding class would pay off.........Of course if you were a toal stud you'd fab up a cat like the rounded one you first showed us.All you need is an english wheel and an industrial metal shaper!!

jlnorthrup122
08-29-2003, 01:47 PM
I plan on getting an english wheel and toy around with forming sheets of aluminum hope to find the wheels and hand tools at an auction at one of these estate sales!
6000 series aluuminum would be stronger but it is not as weldable as the 5000 series aluminum. they use 6000 grade alum in aircraft aplications but it is usually rivited and bolted verses welded! also 5000 series is getting into limited deforming characteristics! you go into 6000 and 7000 you are talking some very trickey shit to work with. 7000 series is usually used in nasa aplications! so I will stick with the 5000 series on this project like every one else who are building aluminum boats!
High Roller your questions are the best ones yet keep em commin bro I will see if I can keep up with them!! wink :)